Re: NVDA Group

Nimer Jaber

Hello Gene and list,

I am the owner of that other list, the NVDA list which first existed on freelists and moved to I wanted to take the time to address this list, to give my viewpoint on the other list.

1. The NVDA list has over a thousand members, all from different backgrounds, with different expertise levels, etc.
2. Over the past couple of years, the list has seen some changes in terms of leadership.
3. The list has also changed from Freelists to, as I've already mentioned.
4. During that time, the list has continued to grow.
5. During Joseph's tenure, I did not receive many complaints about his moderation style. The few complaints I did recieive were in regards to the list membership not wanting the list to turn into a democracy. Joseph left on his own, and still continues to be active in the NVDA community, and on the NVDA list.
6. I sought moderators for the NVDA list, and did not get many takers. I asked Gene to help, as he has been known to assist users on the NVDA list for a long time. Unfortunately, the number of complaints about Gene's communication style increased dramatically. Users were speaking of unsubscribing, although there wasn't a great number of users who did. Many new users were turned off by the way Gene provided information and engaged in arguments on the list.
7. Because the list is not a democracy and because of the problems, I asked Brian V to take the place of Gene as moderator. He was already known for his moderation style on the Windows 10 list. At this time, I also believed that it would be beneficial to attempt to reset the list culture on the NVDA list. Because I had a number of complaints, both on and off list, about the list traffic of such a large list, and indeed, some of the threads went on for many messages, with users not bothering to look up information or attempt to, with many of the same questions being asked sometimes multiple times a day. So, Brian and I embarked on resetting the list culture to be more condusive to learning about NVDA. We also realize that users have questions outside of the scope of NVDA, so we attempt to provide resources whenever possible, as well as a chat sublist where members can discuss any topic whatsoever.

So, today, the purpose of the NVDA list is as it has always been, except that the topic of NVDA is a bit more strictly enforced than it has been in the past. We welcome new users, and urge new users to tell us that when asking questions. We welcome veteran users. We welcome questions about NVDA and its features, whether expert or not. If a topic is not on topic, that topic will likely be locked. If questions are advanced, a user will likely receive a message directing them to a more appropriate place to ask that question.

While I have received some complaints about the direction of the list, they tend to be from only a couple of members, with Gene chief among them. I am, and always have been responsive to the list and its members, *all* of its members. If I recieve one or two complaints on an issue, I tend to dismiss those complaints, especially if those complaints come after a culture shift, because the new list is an adjustment for everyone. On the other hand, If I receive many complaints, I begin to think about what may be the cause, and what the solution may be.

Having said all of this, any member is welcome to sign up for any list of their choosing. It is unfortunate that the NVDA community needs to be divided, that a few members feel that they cannot ask questions. If you choose to consider signing up for the NVDA list, and if you run into problems, you can, of course, email me, and I am willing to work with you in resolving the situation. Because the NVDA community on already has NVDA as its topic, I did say that advertising a list similar in scope is not allowed, and I stick by that. We will see how things shake out, how many members Gene's list gets, etc. Hopefully Gene's list becomes a great resource for many of you. And hopefully you consider joining, rejoining, or posting your NVDA-related questions to the existing NVDA list.


On Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 8:18 AM Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
The circumstances are entirely different in this case.  I knew there were other JFW lists and I said that before starting another one, it would be good to ask about what is available.  I won't go into the details in this case but the point is that in recent months, the large NVDA list has, in muuy and others opinions,  become discouraging of new or inexperienced members to ask questions.  if you look at the responses of others to my statement that I was considering starting a new list, you will find until now, unanimous agreement that a new list is a good idea.  You will also find a message from a former member of the other list giving reasons similar to mine that he left.
Also, I think it is a good idea for people to be a member of both lists.  The other list may have more information posted to it about topics like new training materials and activities of interest to the community.  I don't know if people will join my list who are active in those areas. 
Also, I didn't just criticize someone for starting a new JAWS list.  I said that before doing so, it would be a good idea to inquire about other lists to avoid duplication.  I didn't say one shouldn't be started.  It depends on if its purpose is different from already existing lists or if it is run differently in ways that some people may strongly prefer.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, August 26, 2019 9:39 AM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] NVDA Group

Just what we need, another NVDA list.  You were quick to criticize another person for starting a new JFW users list when one already existed, yet you are doing the exact same thing, creating a new list which would be largely redundant and cause confusion. What makes you think that your NVDA list would be any better than the one that has been around for many years?  


On 8/26/2019 8:59 AM, Gene wrote:
To avoid list clutter, I won't respond to individual messages saying people will join.  I'll thank those now in one message.  The list needs a core of experienced members and I appreciate all who join.
----- Original Message -----

Sent: Monday, August 26, 2019 2:38 AM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] NVDA Group

Count me in too.  I'll help all I can.  Cheers!

On 8/26/2019 9:51 AM, Gene wrote:
Thank you.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2019 8:27 PM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] NVDA Group

Count me in. I'm not the most expert on NVDA but not a newbie with things either :)

Also, Brian Gaff (I think that's his name) probably will be interested on participating as well.

Marcio AKA Starboy

Sent from a galaxy far, far away.

Are you a Thunderbird user? Then join the Thunderbird mailing list to help and be helped with all Thunderbird things - questions, features, add-ons and much more!

Gene wrote:
I hope that if I set one up, it will attract enough knowledgeable users to answer beginners and less experienced users' questions well. 


Nimer Jaber

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