locked Re: warning if you doing business

Dave Mitchel

I'm sorry brian, but after reading just a line or 2 of your message here I
find it very difficult to read due to poor grammar and poor spelling. I
would not lecture others about illiteracy in a post filled with misspellings
such as this.
another grumpy dave here...

-----Original Message-----
From: brian
Sent: Friday, March 6, 2020 12:01 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

aAmen if you don't braille than you are not truly literate. If you
doubt this then read emails from blind people who don't know braille
there spelling and gramar and punctuation leave alot to be desired. I
have been there myself if I don't read then I to will fall in to trap as
well. If you truly want to be literate then you just have toread and
not just listen to audio. Those of us who do prefer braille and would
rather read than listen have only audio as the option all to often. For
me if I want to stay literate then I have to read braille and as I said
in my email to Grumpy Dave I can't amagine my life with out braille. I
have had braille most of my life and I would loose independence ifI were
to not know braille. Reading braille is active reading but listening to
audio or computer speech is just passive reading. I prefer to activly
read but most of the time I can't because it's audio only. I do rember
haveing to cary volumes of braille books acrost campus at the blind
school but I never gave it a though it was just what I hav to do it was
no problem for me at all. The campus at the Michigan school for the
blind in Lansing Michigan covered a 4 city block area. I tried college
back in 1987-1988 and I could have donee much better if I had braille.
I had tapes from recording forthe blind but I had issues with the
readers with pronouncations. I remember taking test and what I heard
during the test sounded nothing like what I heard on the tapes. If I
would have had my books in braille I would have known the correct words
and the tests would have made sinse. If yur going to read on tape then
you must be able to speak properly and say your words properly. There
was the issue of only tape at a time and having to send 2 copies of
every book to recording for the blind to be recorded. Audio is usless
if I don't know what you are saying. This is why we need braille.
Braille readers don't make a big deal of how many volumes a book is it
just is.

Brian Sackrider

On 3/6/2020 7:26 AM, chris judge wrote:
This is true. There is a huge difference between not learning braille if
you've lost your site later in life. The unfortunate fact is that even
people who are blind since birth are not learning braille at the rate they
were when I was a kid 50 years ago. If you are blind since birth and you
don't learn braille you miss out on basic literacy. How do you learn
proper spelling, grammar, punctuation and such if you don't learn braile.
If you have had site you already understand these things so knowing
braille isn't as paramount.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of
Sent: March 6, 2020 12:42 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

Hello everyone:

I would like to point out that many blind people lose their eyesight later
in life and they find it too difficult to learn braille. It is much easier
for them to access information by listening to audio. It’s hard enough for
them to get over losing their eyesight and live without seeing their loved
ones or other things ever again. The last thing they want is to learn a
new skill that they may find just too difficult.

After obtaining my iPhone, I attended a users group where are the people
taught each other to use iOS devices. While at the group one day, one of
the group leaders brought a focus 40 refreshable braille display for
everyone to examine. I was the only blind person in the room interested in
touching the device because I knew braille and I owned a previous
generation of that device. It was not discussed, but I knew that they were
not interested because most of them had lost their eyesight later in life.
I suspect that they found it much easier to listen to audio than reading
braille. Plus, most of them had learned how to access information using
their iPhones. I’m sure they found it much easier to whip out their
iPhones and listen to their books, podcasts, scan documents and do
everything else we can do with our iPhones. I realize that not everyone
owns a smart phone because they have not found a way to obtain one. I also
realize that not everyone is into these types of gadgets. However, many
blind people have discovered how great these gadgets are and how useful
they can be in helping them become more independent. For many of us, that
is the route we have chosen.

In any case, don’t be too surprised if you meet a blind person who is not
interested in learning braille. Don’t be too hard on those people. Maybe
they just prefer to do what is easier.

I am so glad that refreshable braille displays exist now. I am also glad
that low cost refreshable braille displays are being developed. I
definitely don’t miss the days of carrying bulky braille books to and from
my classes. I do not miss the days of trying to look up words in the
dictionary and dealing with a whole bookshelf of braille books. No thank
you! I do not miss my five volume braille New Testament.

If I did not already on a refreshable braille display, I would definitely
look into obtaining the orbit braille reader or the braille me.

Anyhow, these are just my rambling opinions.

Victor Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 5, 2020, at 7:40 PM, brian <bsackrider55@gmail.com> wrote:

 Thanks Grumpy Dave for your explination. I would be willing to pay
a few dollars to get braille. I am not saying that I should get for free
but not to have the option is my complaint. My local liberary use to
provide braille for 10 cents per page. I was also told that if I
provided the paper they would braille what I wanted. They required 67
weight paper which I can get at Staples. All to often we are forced to
except only audio as the only format that is available. Braille will
always be my prefered format because I prefer to read for myself instead
of just listen. You say that you hate braille but you can use it well I
feel the same about audio. Why do we have to be locked in to just one
format? How many people would rather read than listen? Blind or
sighted. People who prefer to read than should be commended instead of
being kind of bashed for it. If not many blind people request braille
than it should be no trouble to provide it. Braille is not that dificult
to produce once you have the equipment. my liberary had no trouble all
they needed was files in microsoft word and the paper and they were good
to go. I use to get my weekly meterials for my church all in grade 2
braille. It was really great to finally be an active participant in the
service instead just a pasive listener. To be able to read along with
everyone else the verses and hyms and classes lessons is a great feeling
you just can't discribe the independence that it givesyou. It's kind of
like having access to dvs you can finally know what is going on when
there is all of that dead air. I was able to read infront of the church
and be active in bible study and even lead the groop all using braille.
I do use braille menus when ever possible even if I don't really need it
just to let them see that somone is acually using it. Braille has given
me a very full life and I don't know whear my life would be with out
braille. I feel that every blind person who is able to read braille
should learn it. I do understand that there are blind people who have
medical conditions that prevents them from being able to read braille.
For them they have no choice but to use audio but I do have the choice I
just don't like being limited to just audio only and not braille. You
hate braille and I hate audio. a good example of when I wish that I had
braille instead of a file was when I requested my local newspaper to be
accessable. my lions club purchassed a sara reading machine for me there
was no braille manual but there was a print manual. I had to go to the
help file on the machine and try to find what I wanted. When I called
the paper office they asked what files my machine could read. If I had a
braille manual I could have just looked it up while on the phone and gave
them the answer. I had to call back after I went to the help file and
found it. This is very time concuming I can look up somthing much faster
in braille than any other format. I am not saying that I can do it as
quick as a sighted person can with print but for me it's the fastest way
for me to get the job done. When I was a kid I attended the Michigan
school the blind in Lansing and we had to learn braille and all of our
books were in braille. There was no I don't want to learn it you had to.
I will say that I can certainly listen much faster than I can read but
when it comes to looking up somthing braille is faster hands down. I
have been blind since birth and thats all I ever knew was braille. It's
like the sighted grew up with print. I wanted to learn the opticon at
the rehab center but they would not let me because they said that I was
not fast enough. I felt that I was learning and making progress and I
should had the right to continue but they said no. If somone really wants
to learn a new skil then they should beallowed to do so. If I am
determind to learn somthing that then I will even though it might take
more time then the teacher would like. I guess that modavation means
nothing. If somone reallly wants to learn braille so what ifit takes
several month to do so they should not be told no you can't continue. If
companies had the equipment to produce braille they could charge me for
the cost of the paper to get braille manuals or catalogs.

On 3/5/2020 9:26 PM, Dave wrote:
Hello Brian,

I have nothing against Braille other than the hassle it is to create
it, such as a Manual in Braille.

I've been blind for a long time now, and there were many times when I
would have Kissed the Feet of anyone who gave me a manual in Audio
format. many times have I had to just Wing it, learning by Guess and
by Golly. Once Computers became a Tool for the Blind, Guessing was
not always the best thing to do, as guessing wrong could ruin your
day in a Big way. Still can.

but, Brian, I have no Beef with Braille. To produce it is just not an
easy task. And I would guess that most manufacturers of items for
the blind, may not want to hire another Staff member to do nothing
but print out Manuals in Braille.

Yes, it all sounds good, until the costs of doing such a thing is

These days, I do expect a Manual at least in a PDF format, if not an
Audio file. And if I own my own Braille Printer, I can then print
out the PDF file.

Although, I can't afford one of those printers, so I do without.

However, I could run the Audio file through an Audio to Text
converter, and then print that file out in Braille.

When I get nothing but an On Line Manual, where I need to go On Line
to read the thing. I am Thankful for at least that much, but I
always look to see if I can just download the manual so I don't need
to be going On Line so much.

Call it my personal Taste.

I would think most who are Blind have learned over and over again to
look for Work Arounds for doing many things in Life.

You like Braille, and while I do use it, I Hate it. So a Braille
Manual would be a waste of resources to send me one.

You Love it, and can use it well. So, when the Company doesn't send
a manual in Braille, but has sent you one in PDF, or even Audio, if
you want a manual in Braille, the Work around is to convert that Audio
PDF file into Braille. And if you are like me, and can't afford a
Braille Printer, there are Services that will take your Manual file
and make you a manual in Braille.

it may cost you a few dollars, which again is all part of the Life of
someone who is Blind. In the past, I have hired Readers to read
Manuals on Tape. Paid them $10 for every hour of Recorded material.

I've paid people to read my Mail. This was before smart Phones had
built in Cameras and OCR programs. I paid them $10 an hour too. this
was back in the 1980's and 90's.

I haven't had to hire anyone for about 20 years now

And Dare I bring up the Quality of Manuals? So often, regardless of
what Format it comes in, the information in the thing is totally Nuts!
It doesn't make Sense, and you can't tell if it is a Translation of
something in Chinese to English, or from Chinese to Spanish and then
Russian, and then to English etc.

And some manuals that come in English are so poorly written, lack
helpful information and seem to be missing a great deal of actual
instructional information and are next to useless in any format.

Grumpy Dave

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