toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Maybe you could type more slowly and then proofread your messages
before you send them out?
On 3/7/20, brian <bsackrider55@...> wrote:
People on this list and on other lists have told me to use
a spell checker and thats all they say. They did not give me any
options or tell me whear to get oneor how to use one. I don't have
microsoft office. What is a good spell checker that works with nvda?
Just telling me what I should do but not providing with out anyhelp
information does me no good and is not helping me at all. I have not
taken any computer classes what I know I have learned on my own. It
seems that people are all to willing to tell me what I should do but
don't give any helpful sugestions. I know that I do need help and I do
want to make mymessages more readable. It's not that I don't care I
just don't know what to do about the problem. It is true that if I
write to fast than I will make lots of mistakes. The same is true if I
write in braille. I do get very slopy if I write to fast.
On 3/7/2020 12:13 PM, Gene wrote:
You are making unsupported statements. How do you know Brian has
learning differences? How do you know he was coasted through school?
I'll offer an alternative explanation. I'm not saying either are
correct nor am I saying which one may or may not account for observed
phenomena better. But how do you know that some or many of these
errors are not the result of someone feeling strongly about something
and rushing to get the message written as quickly as possible? If
Brian is typing far above the speed at which he types more accurately,
that may result in some of what is observed. And, since I've seen
messages from Brian that don't have all these mistakes, I'll consider
my theory to be a possibly better explanation, since I don't know
Brian's background and I think it is absurd to infer some sort of
learning differences based on a few e-mails.
But none of this, learning differences, spelling difficulties, a rush
to type as quickly as you can to get your message out as fast as
possible, none of these possibilities precludes the use of a spell
To this point, I have been writing as a list member. I am now writing
as the list owner.
This discussion has been very interesting and we know more about each
other than we did, thus helping build community on the list. But if
the discussion becomes mostly one of how messages are written, I'll
close it. I realize that you and a few others may want to respond to
what I and others have said but this part of the discussion shouldn't
continue for more than a few more messages.
Now, I'm writing as a list member again.
Brian, I would think it may be uncomfortable seeing your writing
critiqued. But keep these things in mind and you may find the
My view is that if I expect someone to spend the time reading my
messages and thinking about them, I have a certain responsibility to
make them reasonably readable. In your case, many people probably
have to stop to review phrases where words are written together
without spaces. Because I've seen messages from you that are much
better written, it appears to me that if you get emotional about a
subject, you rush to write what you want as quickly as you can. the
result is errors that make your messages difficult to read, such as
words written together with no spaces.
As to spelling, in general I would just let that go. But when you
call a whole class of people illiterate, then don't use a spellchecker
and have misspelled wordafter misspelled word, then, like it or not,
you become part of the discussion. Like it or not, literacy is partly
sending a message without perhaps thirty or forty or more misspelled
words. And nothing precludes you from using a spellchecker. As I
said, in general I wouldn't comment on spelling, but it is inevitable
that at least a few people will when you accuse people of being
illiterate and don't use a spell checker, resulting in a great many
misspellings. It's as though I attended a cooking contest, made a
speech before the event in which I said that with frozen dinners, no
one knows how to cook anymore, then I burned the soup and my main dish.
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Ann Parsons <mailto:akp@...>
*Sent:* Saturday, March 07, 2020 6:27 AM
*To:* firstname.lastname@example.org <mailto:email@example.com>
*Subject:* Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business
I could write a long rant about how I am treated when I correct
people's spelling publicly. I have been called harsh and arrogant and
more. I won't do that because it would be counter-productive. I will
say, however, that taking advantage of someone who has made a public
mistake is, I feel, cruel. it demeans those who perpetuate such crimes.
If you wish to correct Brian's writing, you might do so privately,
thereby giving him the dignity he deserves. It isn't his fault that he
was coasted through school. It isn't his fault that he may not have a
braille display or possess hard copy braille so that he could improve
If you want to help, take it off-list! Truly be of service and not
part of the problem.
I don't want to personalize this, but you say you're a good
Braille reader now: correct? You say that people who use audio
primarily aren't truly literate and you can tell by the way they write
e-mails: is that what you're saying? Well let me be your teacher and
quote and correct your own mistakes that you have made in your lengthy
<spelling error> aAmen(I guess you are trying to say Amen to that or
something similar--note the repetition of the first letter A.)
<grammatical clumsiness> if you don't braille than you are not truly
literate. (I guess you mean: if you don't know/use/are competent in,
Braille then you are not truly literate.)
<run on sentence> If you doubt this then read emails from blind people
who don't know braille there spelling and (There should be a period
after the word Braille.)
<spelling error> gramar and punctuation leave alot to be desired. (In
this sentence grammar and a lot are misspelled.)
<run on sentence> I have been there myself if I don't read then I to
will fall in to trap as well. (There should be a period after the word
If you truly want to be literate then you just have
<spelling error> toread and not just listen to audio. (there is a run
on word toread that should be separated into 'to read.')
Those of us who do prefer braille and would rather read than listen
have only audio as the option all to often. For me if I want to stay
literate then I have to read braille and as I said in my email to
Dave I can't
<spelling error> amagine my life with out braille. (I guess you mean
'imagine my life without Braille.)
<wrong use of the word loose> I have had braille most of my life and I
would loose independence (I guess you mean lose independence.)
<spelling error> ifI were to not know braille. (You ran the words If
and I together.)
Reading braille is active reading but listening to audio or computer
speech is just passive reading.
I prefer to <spelling error> activly read but most of the time I can't
because it's audio only. (You misspelled actively.)
<spelling errors and a run on sentence> I do rember haveing to cary
volumes of braille books acrost campus at the blind school but I never
gave it a though it was just what I hav to do it was no problem for me
at all. (You misspelled remember, having, across and probably mean
word had when you wrote hav. And I almost forgot, you used the word
though instead of thought.) (There should be a period after the word
The campus at the Michigan school for the blind in Lansing Michigan
covered a 4 city block area. I tried college back in 1987-1988 and I
<spelling error> donee much better if I had braille. (You misspelled
the word done.)
<spelling errors> I had tapes from recording forthe blind but I had
issues with the readers with pronouncations. (you ran the words for
and the together. You misspelled pronunciation.)
I remember taking test and what I heard during the test sounded nothing
like what I heard on the tapes.
If I would have had my books in braille I would have known the correct
words and the tests would have made <spelling error> sinse. (You
misspelled the word sense.)
<spelling error> If yur going to read on tape then you must be able toword yur.)
speak properly and say your words properly. (You misspelled the word
you're--or at least I think that's what you meant by writing the
<grammatical oddity> There was the issue of only tape at a time and
having to send 2 copies of every book to recording for the blind to be
recorded. (I'm not quite sure, but I think you meant 'only one tape at
<spelling error> Audio is usless if I don't know what you are saying.
(You misspelled useless.)
This is why we need braille. Braille readers don't make a big deal of
how many volumes a book is it just is.
LONG STORY SHORT: BRIAN, YOU ARE A POOR EXAMPLE OF THE IDEA THAT
READERS WRITE COHERENT AND GRAMATICALLY CORRECT E-MAIL MESSAGES.
On 3/6/2020 3:01 PM, brian wrote:
aAmen if you don't braille than you are not truly literate. If you
doubt this then read emails from blind people who don't know braille
there spelling and gramar and punctuation leave alot to be desired. I
have been there myself if I don't read then I to will fall in to trap
as well. If you truly want to be literate then you just have toread
and not just listen to audio. Those of us who do prefer braille and
would rather read than listen have only audio as the option all to
often. For me if I want to stay literate then I have to read braille
and as I said in my email to Grumpy Dave I can't amagine my life with
out braille. I have had braille most of my life and I would loose
independence ifI were to not know braille. Reading braille is active
reading but listening to audio or computer speech is just passive
reading. I prefer to activly read but most of the time I can't
because it's audio only. I do rember haveing to cary volumes of
braille books acrost campus at the blind school but I never gave it a
though it was just what I hav to do it was no problem for me at all.
The campus at the Michigan school for the blind in Lansing Michigan
covered a 4 city block area. I tried college back in 1987-1988 and I
could have donee much better if I had braille. I had tapes from
recording forthe blind but I had issues with the readers with
pronouncations. I remember taking test and what I heard during the
test sounded nothing like what I heard on the tapes. If I would have
had my books in braille I would have known the correct words and the
tests would have made sinse. If yur going to read on tape then you
must be able to speak properly and say your words properly. There was
the issue of only tape at a time and having to send 2 copies of every
book to recording for the blind to be recorded. Audio is usless if I
don't know what you are saying. This is why we need braille. Braille
readers don't make a big deal of how many volumes a book is it just
On 3/6/2020 7:26 AM, chris judge wrote:
This is true. There is a huge difference between not learning braille
if you've lost your site later in life. The unfortunate fact is that
even people who are blind since birth are not learning braille at the
rate they were when I was a kid 50 years ago. If you are blind since
birth and you don't learn braille you miss out on basic literacy. How
do you learn proper spelling, grammar, punctuation and such if you
don't learn braile. If you have had site you already understand these
things so knowing braille isn't as paramount.
<main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io>> On Behalf Of
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io>
Sent: March 6, 2020 12:42 AM
To: firstname.lastname@example.org <mailto:email@example.com>
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business
I would like to point out that many blind people lose their eyesight
later in life and they find it too difficult to learn braille. It is
much easier for them to access information by listening to audio.
It’s hard enough for them to get over losing their eyesight and live
without seeing their loved ones or other things ever again. The last
thing they want is to learn a new skill that they may find just too
After obtaining my iPhone, I attended a users group where are the
people taught each other to use iOS devices. While at the group one
day, one of the group leaders brought a focus 40 refreshable braille
display for everyone to examine. I was the only blind person in the
room interested in touching the device because I knew braille and I
owned a previous generation of that device. It was not discussed, but
I knew that they were not interested because most of them had lost
their eyesight later in life. I suspect that they found it much
easier to listen to audio than reading braille. Plus, most of them
had learned how to access information using their iPhones. I’m sure
they found it much easier to whip out their iPhones and listen to
their books, podcasts, scan documents and do everything else we can
do with our iPhones. I realize that not everyone owns a smart phone
because they have not found a way to obtain one. I also realize that
not everyone is into these types of gadgets. However, many blind
people have discovered how great these gadgets are and how useful
they can be in helping them become more independent. For many of us,
that is the route we have chosen.
In any case, don’t be too surprised if you meet a blind person who is
not interested in learning braille. Don’t be too hard on those
people. Maybe they just prefer to do what is easier.
I am so glad that refreshable braille displays exist now. I am also
glad that low cost refreshable braille displays are being developed.
I definitely don’t miss the days of carrying bulky braille books to
and from my classes. I do not miss the days of trying to look up
words in the dictionary and dealing with a whole bookshelf of braille
books. No thank you! I do not miss my five volume braille New
If I did not already on a refreshable braille display, I would
definitely look into obtaining the orbit braille reader or the
Anyhow, these are just my rambling opinions.
Victor Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 5, 2020, at 7:40 PM, brian <bsackrider55@...
Thanks Grumpy Dave for your explination. I would be willing to
pay a few dollars to get braille. I am not saying that I should get
for free but not to have the option is my complaint. My local
liberary use to provide braille for 10 cents per page. I was also
told that if I provided the paper they would braille what I wanted.
They required 67 weight paper which I can get at Staples. All to
often we are forced to except only audio as the only format that is
available. Braille will always be my prefered format because I
prefer to read for myself instead of just listen. You say that you
hate braille but you can use it well I feel the same about audio.
Why do we have to be locked in to just one format? How many people
would rather read than listen? Blind or sighted. People who prefer
to read than should be commended instead of being kind of bashed for
it. If not many blind people request braille than it should be no
trouble to provide it. Braille is not that dificult to produce once
you have the equipment. my liberary had no trouble all they needed
was files in microsoft word and the paper and they were good to go.
I use to get my weekly meterials for my church all in grade 2
braille. It was really great to finally be an active participant in
the service instead just a pasive listener. To be able to read
along with everyone else the verses and hyms and classes lessons is
a great feeling you just can't discribe the independence that it
givesyou. It's kind of like having access to dvs you can finally
know what is going on when there is all of that dead air. I was
able to read infront of the church and be active in bible study and
even lead the groop all using braille. I do use braille menus when
ever possible even if I don't really need it just to let them see
that somone is acually using it. Braille has given me a very full
life and I don't know whear my life would be with out braille. I
feel that every blind person who is able to read braille should
learn it. I do understand that there are blind people who have
medical conditions that prevents them from being able to read
braille. For them they have no choice but to use audio but I do
have the choice I just don't like being limited to just audio only
and not braille. You hate braille and I hate audio. a good example
of when I wish that I had braille instead of a file was when I
requested my local newspaper to be accessable. my lions club
purchassed a sara reading machine for me there was no braille manual
but there was a print manual. I had to go to the help file on the
machine and try to find what I wanted. When I called the paper
office they asked what files my machine could read. If I had a
braille manual I could have just looked it up while on the phone and
gave them the answer. I had to call back after I went to the help
file and found it. This is very time concuming I can look up
somthing much faster in braille than any other format. I am not
saying that I can do it as quick as a sighted person can with print
but for me it's the fastest way for me to get the job done. When I
was a kid I attended the Michigan school the blind in Lansing and we
had to learn braille and all of our books were in braille. There
was no I don't want to learn it you had to. I will say that I can
certainly listen much faster than I can read but when it comes to
looking up somthing braille is faster hands down. I have been blind
since birth and thats all I ever knew was braille. It's like the
sighted grew up with print. I wanted to learn the opticon at the
rehab center but they would not let me because they said that I was
not fast enough. I felt that I was learning and making progress and
I should had the right to continue but they said no. If somone
really wants to learn a new skil then they should beallowed to do
so. If I am determind to learn somthing that then I will even
though it might take more time then the teacher would like. I guess
that modavation means nothing. If somone reallly wants to learn
braille so what ifit takes several month to do so they should not be
told no you can't continue. If companies had the equipment to
produce braille they could charge me for the cost of the paper to
get braille manuals or catalogs.
On 3/5/2020 9:26 PM, Dave wrote:
I have nothing against Braille other than the hassle it is to
it, such as a Manual in Braille.
I've been blind for a long time now, and there were many times
would have Kissed the Feet of anyone who gave me a manual in Audio
format. many times have I had to just Wing it, learning by
by Golly. Once Computers became a Tool for the Blind, Guessing was
not always the best thing to do, as guessing wrong could ruin your
day in a Big way. Still can.
but, Brian, I have no Beef with Braille. To produce it is just
easy task. And I would guess that most manufacturers of items for
the blind, may not want to hire another Staff member to do nothing
but print out Manuals in Braille.
Yes, it all sounds good, until the costs of doing such a thing is
These days, I do expect a Manual at least in a PDF format, if not
Audio file. And if I own my own Braille Printer, I can then print
out the PDF file.
Although, I can't afford one of those printers, so I do without.
However, I could run the Audio file through an Audio to Text
converter, and then print that file out in Braille.
When I get nothing but an On Line Manual, where I need to go On
to read the thing. I am Thankful for at least that much, but I
always look to see if I can just download the manual so I don't
to be going On Line so much.
Call it my personal Taste.
I would think most who are Blind have learned over and over again
look for Work Arounds for doing many things in Life.
You like Braille, and while I do use it, I Hate it. So a Braille
Manual would be a waste of resources to send me one.
You Love it, and can use it well. So, when the Company doesn't
a manual in Braille, but has sent you one in PDF, or even Audio, if
you want a manual in Braille, the Work around is to convert that
PDF file into Braille. And if you are like me, and can't afford a
Braille Printer, there are Services that will take your Manual file
and make you a manual in Braille.
it may cost you a few dollars, which again is all part of the
someone who is Blind. In the past, I have hired Readers to read
Manuals on Tape. Paid them $10 for every hour of Recorded
I've paid people to read my Mail. This was before smart Phones had
built in Cameras and OCR programs. I paid them $10 an hour
was back in the 1980's and 90's.
I haven't had to hire anyone for about 20 years now
And Dare I bring up the Quality of Manuals? So often, regardless of
what Format it comes in, the information in the thing is totally
It doesn't make Sense, and you can't tell if it is a Translation of
something in Chinese to English, or from Chinese to Spanish and
Russian, and then to English etc.
And some manuals that come in English are so poorly written, lack
helpful information and seem to be missing a great deal of actual
instructional information and are next to useless in any format.
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"
Ann K. Parsons
EMAIL: akp@... <mailto:akp@...>
Author of The Demmies: http://www.dldbooks.com/annparsons/
Portal Tutoring web site: http://www.portaltutoring.info
"All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost."