Re: 5g and me

enes sarıbaş

Hi Gene,

I am not an ordinary user. When I purchase a computer, I will not settle for anything less than the best. This system, while still able to run browsers and regular websites ok, struggles and crashes freezes when running large websites.  The difference in processor technology reached a critically dramatic point when I thhought replacing this was a good option. Every component on my new machine should at least provide a 100% improvement or more, even ram speeds, 1600 vs 3200.

Flaws on laptops on that price range are usually intolerable. A cheap case will not cool properly, and  will bend or warp easily. For example, my laptop's plastic yields under the DVD drive. Cooling isn't fixable with a cooling pad. Unfortunately with the focus on portability  cooling is taking a back seat with laptops. If fans are too small for the thermals, or if vents are too small, that throttles down the processor. For sighted people, the screens of such machines are terrible in quality. And a USB keyboard adds unneeded bulk to laptops.  Look at a list of best laptops on any sight, and you won't see any machines in your price range that make those lists. Here is an article  which describes why  it makes sense to pay for a better laptop.

On 10/16/2020 5:53 AM, Gene wrote:
Few ports won't matter with hubs available and many people may well not need more than the ports offered.  Keyboards, I don't know how serious a problem that is.  My lapptop, I don't know if it is in the minority, as a very nice keyboard with large keys and a nice feel.  While a keyboard that is more difficult or unpleasant to use than it should be would be an annoyance, at least when used at home, and laptops these days often replace desktops, its easy enough to use a USB keyboard.  If this is a problem with many laptops, it is hardly a major flaw and hardly rises to the level justifying spending hundreds of dollars more to solve unless you use the laptop portably some or much of the time and you can't find a portable keyboard that satisfies your needs.  Cooling?  If you are talking about laptops, the person can use a cooling pad. Not a serious problem at all.

I don't know what problems you are referring to by material design.  I'll look at the page, but the objections you have discussed don't justify spending more on a machine unless you want to use the laptop while away from home and a solution to a flaw makes its use unreasonably inconvenient, something I think won't happen with most of the flaws you have discussed. Then, too, people who live anywhere near a computer store or Walmart or Best Buy or other such stores can inspect computers in person.  And there are always user reviews and reviews in computer magazines such as the best laptops for 2020 and other reviews such as the best laptops for 2020 costing under this or that amount of money. And there are lists like this, good places to ask what machines people are using and for evaluations or to ask about a specific machine or machines you are interested in.

In short, you can pick the flaw that either won't matter to you or will be easy to work around, given how you use the computer or you can try to find one without such flaws and I would think some computers without them perhaps many, if you look, can be found.

While your objection is interesting because it leads to a discussion of the ways to find a good computer, it doesn't justify spending more money for the majority of users.

-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 3:10 AM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

Hi Gene,

Systems in that price range today have major flaws, iether few ports,
cooling, keyboard, mouse, material design. You can view notebookcheck
and similar technology sites, and read reviews for systems in different
price brackets, and all of those systems will have their flaws
mentioned. Whether these flaws matter though depends on the flaw or person.

On 10/15/2020 9:04 PM, Gene wrote:
And so are laptops.  Your information is wrong.  I bought a laptop about nine years ago, and certainly you would get more power for the same price now, for about 480 dollars.  It has worked very well.  It is not compromised.  It doesn't have defects.

And no one said a 500 dollar computer is good for everyone.  I'm not talking about gamers or power users.  I'm talking about the majority of Internet users who stream, surf, use a word processor, record audio, and do other tasks that are not particularly demanding.

-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 8:44 PM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

Just because you may consider a system adequate for your own needs
doesn't mean it is for  is for everyone. A system like that would have
major compremises. For clerification, I am talking about laptop prices,
desktops in that price range may in fact be midrange. What I am saying
is a minimum system for anyone should have a 6 core or so CPU, 8 gb or
16 gb of dual channel ram, an I5processor etc.

On 10/15/2020 7:08 PM, Monte Single wrote:
Hi list,
: enes sarıbaş  thinks a 500 dollar computer/laptop is less than adequate for the average user.
He is not the first person on the list to express such thoughts.
The  one time I spent more than that for a computer was for the first one I purchased;  that was in the last millennium.
If I spent 500 u s dollars on a computer today,  it would be built with quality parts and be more than adequate for the average computer user's needs.
: enes sarıbaş   go forth and conquer, spend the big bucks.
Hopefully it will stimulate the economy.

-----Original Message-----
From: <> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: October 15, 2020 5:29 PM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

That simply is not true.  A lot of people have machines in the five hundred dollar range and they work fine.

And five hundred dollar machines aren't just barely competent machines.

-----Original Message-----
From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 4:14 PM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

No, I would not buy a 500 dollar machine. In fact, I would exclude machines below a certain build quality as a matter of principle. Is saving every little penny really worth it for a device people use 12 hours a day or more? possibly? Those machines usually have more than one major flaw, and have barebone specs. I think a power user should get a pc above the 1000 dollar range, and a regular user, if they can aford it should go around 700-800. The difference between an entry level, and even midrange computer is very apparent in build quality, as well as components. A midrange system will probably have one or two important flaws, but a budget system will have three or more, iether bad keyboard, cheap material, poor cooling, etc.

On 10/15/2020 7:15 AM, Gene wrote:
And I suspect you spent over a thousand dollars to do what a five
hundred dollar computer can do, less if on sale ormanufacturer
refurbished.  I don't know enough technically to discuss some of your
technical points, but I'll say the following:
The advice I see from computer advisors is that for the majority of
people, purchasing a machine somewhere in the five hundred dollar
range will meet their needs.  And even if memory requirements have
gone up for some programs, they haven't gone up nearly enough that
more than 8GB of ram is recommended for the majority of users.  That
is the recommendation and it has been for years.

A little money here, a little money there, a more powerful processor,
and pretty soon, you are spending five hundred dollars or more than
you need to and gambling that your machine will last far longer than
the generally agreed on length for reliable service, five years.  I
think it is a very bad gamble, not because the machine won't last
longer, it may well do so, but you are spending a lot more money now
for performance parameters that will be much less expensive when you
replace the computer.  And the typical user, buying a machine around
the five hundred dollar range today, unless their uses change
radically, won't have problems that will require a new machine probably for the life of the current one.

And what about technological changes itself?  If you bought a machine
in the Windows 7 days that was future proofed, in your opinion at that
time, it might not run Windows 10 now.  My understanding is, and if
I'm wrong, I'm sure I will be corrected, that a lot of Windows 7
machines won't run Windows 10 because Microsoft now requires that
different processors be used.

While I don't think that sort of thing will happen if one buys a
machine now for use seven or ten years into the future and are
attempting to future proof it, you are again gambling that newer
technologies wohn't come along that will render your computer less
useable, no matter how you future proof it now.

-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 6:27 AM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

This isn't correct. Browsers, and other day to day applications even,
dramatically have increased ram usage, as well as CPU power. For
example, Zoom will only let you blur the background of video if you
have a quad core processor. If you buy a dual core as opposed to a
quad core processor for example, it will struggle at even the most
basic of tasks, and in 5 years, or even in a few years, programas even
screen readers will begin to lag. This happened with my core I5 4200M.
I thought a dual core was ok, though this was a system gifted to me.
Had I been choosing my own system then, I would've gone for an I7, and
now, this dual core is not even good enough for browsing. Large
websites will freeze it and even when I had it, intensive apps like
finereader will lag significantly independant of ram. This is exactly
I future proofed my next laptop, with a 1tb SSD, 32 gb of ram, and an
r7 4800H processor from AMD, with a 4.2 GHZ boost across all cores.
This should be powerful enough to run anything conceivable in the next
5 or so years, except maybe AI workloads.
On 10/15/2020 6:07 AM, Gene wrote:
I've seen others, and I believe you, too, make the future proof
argument for buying a more powerful computer than the person's
anticipated needs because it will be useful longer because you never
know when your needs will change. I've always thought such arguments
were not good ones. For one thing, a lot of people will continue to
use computers in about the same ways as now and if they do use them
in more demanding ways, those will not likely tax the computer if
they buy a computer that isn't just barely powerful enough to do what they want.

Also, technology continues to become more powerful and cost less. So,
in five years, the projected reliable life of a computer, you will be
able to buy one to meet your needs then for less money than you are
paying now. In addition, though it’s a gamble, many computers last
more than five years, many significantly more. Every dollar you
overspend to be future proofed that you didn't need because your
needs didn't change and all the extra power of your computer remains
unused is increasingly wasted, the longer your computer lasts.

It makes much more sense to buy a computer that is powerful enough to
meet your current needs well if you don't anticipate major changes in
how you will use your computer and are reasonably confident that you
won't do things in future that will exceed the ability of the computer.

Spending one-thousand dollars to future proof a machine, just in
case, maybe you use your machine much differently in the future, when
you could spend five hundred dollars today and three hundred dollars
in fived or seven or eight years for another machine that you would
probably use in similar ways as you do now or not much, is a bad idea.

-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2020 9:27 PM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

Hi Brian,

Just for clerification, I have confirmed 5g signals do exist in my
area for my network. Even without the massive bandwidth, the lower
latency itself will probably result in better quality improvements.
Also, all versions of the IPhone by default include 5g.

On 10/14/2020 9:18 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 10:11 PM, enes sarıbaş wrote:
One reason, future proofing, I want to get the highest end version of
the IPhone 12, though 5g isn't very wiedespread now, it will be in
three years or so.- I am at a loss as to how doing this, now, squares
with your own earlier assertion, "I think 5g is more significant for
fixed wireless than smartphones."

Going to a 5G device now, when it is obscenely expensive, and where
the ability to exploit 5G is limited to a very few locations, seems
to me to be a supreme waste.

And 3 years is an eternity in the world of technology, and
smartphones in particular, and what's Apple's flagship now, will be
mid-range in 3 years, and much cheaper.

Going to a 5G smartphone now, unless you live in a major metropolitan
area, is locking your money up in a frozen asset you cannot even use
for its intended purpose.

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