Hello.

I'd say both viewpoints being expressed in this thread are correct given
the perspective they are coming from.

Having people think before posting on social media would be a very good
thing. However, arguing that a slower computer might make that more
likely seems a little suspect to me given that most social media posting
is done off phones and tablets.


> But I don't think it is relevant that you can't know what it is like
to use an SSD drive


O yes it is. I would have said the same thing years ago but the
difference in over all performance is very noticeable.


> I'm saying that I wouldn't spend fifty dollars or more for something
I don't care about and that wouldn't affect, in any meaningful way, how
I use my computer.


That's your oppinion, and you have a right to that oppinion. However, my
oppinion is the exact opposite, i will and have spent an extra 50
dollars to have my ssd.



With that having been said, we all have a right to use our computers as
we see fit and spend whatever amount of money on them we want to. We
also have a right to make recommendations to others on how we would
build a computer for them or what they should get. You can make your
recommendation for the cheaper route and i can make mine for the more
expensive one. In the end it's up to the person who asked the question
as to which person's recommendations he wants to follow.


HTH.



On 10/17/2020 9:41 AM, Gene wrote:

Even if I used Windows  10, that has nothing to do with drives unless
I get a computer with a drive.  But I don't think it is relevant that
you can't know what it is like to use an SSD drive until you do I
except that if you know, you will have the experience to help base
your choice on.  If I can have that experience, without spending a
significant amount of money to have it, fine.  I don't know what the
expense is now and if it is small, then it may not matter. I'm saying
that I wouldn't spend fifty dollars or more for something I don't care
about and that wouldn't affect, in any meaningful way, how I use my
computer.

Also, in some cases, maybe a little slowness maybe an advantage.
People rush so quickly from one article or post in social media to
another that they may not have time to think properly about what they
read.  They may be so involved in rushing and reading that they get a
certain rush.  It is a cliché today, but a true one to discuss the
lessening of attention spans. Maybe having a slower computer, as I
used for awhile, gives them more time to relax and think.  I'm not
taking a pro or con position on that.  I'm simply pointing out that
the unquestioned assumption that the more speed is better should be
questioned.

Even if I had the experience of using an SSD drive, I would still use
a mechanical drive if there was a significant cost difference.  What I
do, most of the time, surfing, listening to streams, e-mail,
occasionally working on a document in a word processor, none of these
things are cases where a few seconds matter and the activity itself
takes up almost all of the time while doing it.  If someone wants the
emotional satisfaction of having an almost instant response, fine.
Most people don't know the emotional feeling of driving a race car.
That doesn't mean they shouldn't have a typical car.  They don't need
to know the feelingg to make a decision based on how they will use it.

The drive question has nothing to do with Windows version, it has to
do with speed.

Also, the reason I discuss this topic when it comes up is so that
others will see different opinions and be able to decide which
arguments they think make more sense.  Of course, the individual will
decide, but arguments and discussion may be important in some people
making a decision.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: chris judge
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 11:21 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

I find it amusing that this topic pops up every so often. We kick it
around for a week or so, then it just dies out with no resolution.
Personally I have no interest in what others spend their money on. I
don't drive and never will, thus I have none of the expenses a driver
has.
Every three or four years I treat myself to a new computer, and I
usually buy a fairly powerful beast. Last year I chose an i10
processor with 16 gig of ram and a 512 sshd, as well as a 2 TB
mechanical drive for data. Did I need all that? As N adult the only
person who can, and should be answering that question is me. I would
also like to state in closing that those who still believe there is no
significant difference between a solid state drive and a mechanical
one simply doesn't know what he/she is talking about, because if you
have ever experienced the difference you would know, and while windows
10 runs find with 8 gig of ram even while running a screen reader, it
runs better with 16. I know because I have both. Gene, I find you like
to quote other sources when forming your opinion on things. Since you
are still on windows 7, don't you think it's time to join the majority
of us and update your technology experiences?



Chris Judge


-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of
Carolyn Arnold
Sent: October 16, 2020 6:59 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

It sounds like we have different computer needs and purposes, and so
we get what suits us. One does not work for all, which is why there is
a variety.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io [mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io] On
Behalf Of enes saribas
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 5:22 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

It isn't like highway racing Its like buying a 50 dollar work chair
instead of a much more comfortable 500 dollar one or so, which  you
will sit in for 10 hours. You will curse yourself for the few hundred
you didn't spend because of the annoying lags, absence of features etc
that are standard on premium machines.

On 10/16/2020 6:44 AM, Gene wrote:

If you aren't an ordinary user and your comments may not apply to them
that should be specified in your comments.  Also, if these defects are
so terrible, please explain the favorable reviews I found.  I simply
don't believe that chincy, fall apart, or severely defective products
are generally produced.  That's an excellent way to alienate a lot of
users and get a bad reputation that may taint the whole line,
including more expensive computers among users.

I can't comment on your individual experiences but at the same time,
logic dicctates, as well as the large number of favorable reviews that
can be found for machines in the six to seven hundred dollar range and
the occasional chea[per machine, that your generalizations are
incorrect.

Three or four hundred dollars is a lot of money for a lot of people
and buying a thousand dollar or more machine for a lot of people is
like buying a racing car when you will be doing mostly highway driving
and neighborhood driving.

We'll see what other people have to say.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 6:11 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

Hi Gene,

I am not an ordinary user. When I purchase a computer, I will not
settle for anything less than the best. This system, while still able
to run browsers and regular websites ok, struggles and crashes freezes
when running large websites.  The difference in processor technology
reached a critically dramatic point when I thhought replacing this was
a good option. Every component on my new machine should at least
provide a 100% improvement or more, even ram speeds, 1600 vs 3200.

Flaws on laptops on that price range are usually intolerable. A cheap
case will not cool properly, and  will bend or warp easily. For
example, my laptop's plastic yields under the DVD drive. Cooling isn't
fixable with a cooling pad. Unfortunately with the focus on
portability cooling is taking a back seat with laptops. If fans are
too small for the thermals, or if vents are too small, that throttles
down the processor.
For sighted people, the screens of such machines are terrible in
quality. And a USB keyboard adds unneeded bulk to laptops.  Look at a
list of best laptops on any sight, and you won't see any machines in
your price range that make those lists. Here is an article which
describes why  it makes sense to pay for a better laptop.

https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/dont-be-so-cheap-five-reasons-
you-should-spend-more-on-your-next-laptop/



On 10/16/2020 5:53 AM, Gene wrote:

Few ports won't matter with hubs available and many people may well
not need more than the ports offered. Keyboards, I don't know how
serious a problem that is.  My lapptop, I don't know if it is in the
minority, as a very nice keyboard with large keys and a nice feel.
While a keyboard that is more difficult or unpleasant to use than it
should be would be an annoyance, at least when used at home, and
laptops these days often replace desktops, its easy enough to use a
USB keyboard.  If this is a problem with many laptops, it is hardly a
major flaw and hardly rises to the level justifying spending hundreds
of dollars more to solve unless you use the laptop portably some or
much of the time and you can't find a portable keyboard that
satisfies your needs.  Cooling?  If you are talking about laptops,
the person can use a cooling pad. Not a serious problem at all.

I don't know what problems you are referring to by material design.
I'll look at the page, but the objections you have discussed don't
justify spending more on a machine unless you want to use the laptop
while away from home and a solution to a flaw makes its use
unreasonably inconvenient, something I think won't happen with most
of the flaws you have discussed. Then, too, people who live anywhere
near a computer store or Walmart or Best Buy or other such stores can
inspect computers in person.  And there are always user reviews and
reviews in computer magazines such as the best laptops for 2020 and
other reviews such as the best laptops for 2020 costing under this or
that amount of money. And there are lists like this, good places to
ask what machines people are using and for evaluations or to ask
about a specific machine or machines you are interested in.

In short, you can pick the flaw that either won't matter to you or
will be easy to work around, given how you use the computer or you
can try to find one without such flaws and I would think some
computers without them perhaps many, if you look, can be found.

While your objection is interesting because it leads to a discussion
of the ways to find a good computer, it doesn't justify spending more
money for the majority of users.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 3:10 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

Hi Gene,

Systems in that price range today have major flaws, iether few ports,
cooling, keyboard, mouse, material design. You can view notebookcheck
and similar technology sites, and read reviews for systems in
different price brackets, and all of those systems will have their
flaws mentioned. Whether these flaws matter though depends on the
flaw or person.

On 10/15/2020 9:04 PM, Gene wrote:

And so are laptops.  Your information is wrong.  I bought a laptop
about nine years ago, and certainly you would get more power for the
same price now, for about 480 dollars.  It has worked very well.  It
is not compromised.  It doesn't have defects.

And no one said a 500 dollar computer is good for everyone. I'm not
talking about gamers or power users.  I'm talking about the majority
of Internet users who stream, surf, use a word processor, record
audio, and do other tasks that are not particularly demanding.


Gene
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 8:44 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

Just because you may consider a system adequate for your own needs
doesn't mean it is for  is for everyone. A system like that would
have major compremises. For clerification, I am talking about laptop
prices, desktops in that price range may in fact be midrange. What I
am saying is a minimum system for anyone should have a 6 core or so
CPU, 8 gb or
16 gb of dual channel ram, an I5processor etc.

On 10/15/2020 7:08 PM, Monte Single wrote:

Hi list,
: enes sarıbaş  thinks a 500 dollar computer/laptop is less than
adequate for the average user.
He is not the first person on the list to express such thoughts.
The  one time I spent more than that for a computer was for the
first one I purchased;  that was in the last millennium.
If I spent 500 u s dollars on a computer today,  it would be built
with quality parts and be more than adequate for the average
computer user's needs.
: enes sarıbaş   go forth and conquer, spend the big bucks.
Hopefully it will stimulate the economy.



-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf
Of Gene
Sent: October 15, 2020 5:29 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

That simply is not true.  A lot of people have machines in the five
hundred dollar range and they work fine.

And five hundred dollar machines aren't just barely competent
machines.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 4:14 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

No, I would not buy a 500 dollar machine. In fact, I would exclude
machines below a certain build quality as a matter of principle. Is
saving every little penny really worth it for a device people use
12 hours a day or more? possibly? Those machines usually have more
than one major flaw, and have barebone specs. I think a power user
should get a pc above the 1000 dollar range, and a regular user, if
they can aford it should go around 700-800. The difference between
an entry level, and even midrange computer is very apparent in
build quality, as well as components. A midrange system will
probably have one or two important flaws, but a budget system will
have three or more, iether bad keyboard, cheap material, poor
cooling, etc.

On 10/15/2020 7:15 AM, Gene wrote:

And I suspect you spent over a thousand dollars to do what a five
hundred dollar computer can do, less if on sale ormanufacturer
refurbished.  I don't know enough technically to discuss some of
your technical points, but I'll say the following:
The advice I see from computer advisors is that for the majority
of people, purchasing a machine somewhere in the five hundred
dollar range will meet their needs.  And even if memory
requirements have gone up for some programs, they haven't gone up
nearly enough that more than 8GB of ram is recommended for the
majority of users.  That is the recommendation and it has been
for years.

A little money here, a little money there, a more powerful
processor, and pretty soon, you are spending five hundred dollars
or more than you need to and gambling that your machine will last
far longer than the generally agreed on length for reliable
service, five years.  I think it is a very bad gamble, not because
the machine won't last longer, it may well do so, but you are
spending a lot more money now for performance parameters that will
be much less expensive when you replace the computer. And the
typical user, buying a machine around the five hundred dollar
range today, unless their uses change radically, won't have
problems that will require a new machine probably for the life of
the current one.

And what about technological changes itself?  If you bought a
machine in the Windows 7 days that was future proofed, in your
opinion at that time, it might not run Windows 10 now. My
understanding is, and if I'm wrong, I'm sure I will be corrected,
that a lot of Windows 7 machines won't run Windows 10 because
Microsoft now requires that different processors be used.

While I don't think that sort of thing will happen if one buys a
machine now for use seven or ten years into the future and are
attempting to future proof it, you are again gambling that newer
technologies wohn't come along that will render your computer less
useable, no matter how you future proof it now.

Gene.
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 6:27 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

This isn't correct. Browsers, and other day to day applications
even, dramatically have increased ram usage, as well as CPU power.
For example, Zoom will only let you blur the background of video
if you have a quad core processor. If you buy a dual core as
opposed to a quad core processor for example, it will struggle at
even the most basic of tasks, and in 5 years, or even in a few
years, programas even screen readers will begin to lag. This
happened with my core I5 4200M.
I thought a dual core was ok, though this was a system gifted to me.
Had I been choosing my own system then, I would've gone for an I7,
and now, this dual core is not even good enough for browsing.
Large websites will freeze it and even when I had it, intensive
apps like finereader will lag significantly independant of ram.
This is exactly I future proofed my next laptop, with a 1tb SSD,
32 gb of ram, and an
r7 4800H processor from AMD, with a 4.2 GHZ boost across all cores.
This should be powerful enough to run anything conceivable in the
next
5 or so years, except maybe AI workloads.
On 10/15/2020 6:07 AM, Gene wrote:

I've seen others, and I believe you, too, make the future proof
argument for buying a more powerful computer than the person's
anticipated needs because it will be useful longer because you
never know when your needs will change. I've always thought such
arguments were not good ones. For one thing, a lot of people will
continue to use computers in about the same ways as now and if
they do use them in more demanding ways, those will not likely
tax the computer if they buy a computer that isn't just barely
powerful enough to do what they want.

Also, technology continues to become more powerful and cost less.
So,
in five years, the projected reliable life of a computer, you
will be able to buy one to meet your needs then for less money
than you are paying now. In addition, though it’s a gamble, many
computers last more than five years, many significantly more.
Every dollar you overspend to be future proofed that you didn't
need because your needs didn't change and all the extra power of
your computer remains unused is increasingly wasted, the longer
your computer lasts.

It makes much more sense to buy a computer that is powerful
enough to meet your current needs well if you don't anticipate
major changes in how you will use your computer and are
reasonably confident that you won't do things in future that will
exceed the ability of the computer.

Spending one-thousand dollars to future proof a machine, just in
case, maybe you use your machine much differently in the future,
when you could spend five hundred dollars today and three hundred
dollars in fived or seven or eight years for another machine that
you would probably use in similar ways as you do now or not much,
is a bad idea.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2020 9:27 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me



Hi Brian,

Just for clerification, I have confirmed 5g signals do exist in
my area for my network. Even without the massive bandwidth, the
lower latency itself will probably result in better quality
improvements.
Also, all versions of the IPhone by default include 5g.


On 10/14/2020 9:18 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 10:11 PM, enes sarıbaş wrote:
One reason, future proofing, I want to get the highest end
version of the IPhone 12, though 5g isn't very wiedespread now,
it will be in three years or so.- I am at a loss as to how doing
this, now, squares with your own earlier assertion, "I think 5g
is more significant for fixed wireless than smartphones."

Going to a 5G device now, when it is obscenely expensive, and
where the ability to exploit 5G is limited to a very few
locations, seems to me to be a supreme waste.

And 3 years is an eternity in the world of technology, and
smartphones in particular, and what's Apple's flagship now, will
be mid-range in 3 years, and much cheaper.

Going to a 5G smartphone now, unless you live in a major
metropolitan area, is locking your money up in a frozen asset you
cannot even use for its intended purpose.