----- Original Message -----
From: "Ann Parsons" <akp@sero.email>
To: <main@techtalk.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2020 4:56 PM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Dear Ann, That worked, but now it says "New Line" How do I shut that off in my Word 2007 using JAWS 13

Hi,

Try just ctrl-8

Ann P.


Original message:

Dear Ann and friends, That worked, but now it says "New Line" How do I shut
that off in my Word 2007 using JAWS 13

With best regards.
God Bless.
Alan
Plantation, Sunny South Florida
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ann Parsons" <akp@sero.email>
To: <main@techtalk.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2020 2:14 PM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Dear Friends, How do I shut Paragraph Marking off in
my Word 2007 using JAWS 13

Hi all,

Try ctrl-shift-8 to shut off the paragraph announcements.

Ann P.

--
Ann K. Parsons
Portal Tutoring
EMAIL: akp@sero.email
Author of The Demmies: http://www.dldbooks.com/annparsons/
Portal Tutoring web site: http://www.portaltutoring.info
Skype: Putertutor

"All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost."

--
Ann K. Parsons
Portal Tutoring
EMAIL: akp@sero.email
Author of The Demmies: http://www.dldbooks.com/annparsons/
Portal Tutoring web site: http://www.portaltutoring.info
Skype: Putertutor

"All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost."

On 3/6/2020 4:45 PM, Ann Parsons wrote:

Hi all,

I believe that Brian writes as well as he is able.  Not sure what his difficulties may be e.g. learning differences, DeafBlindness, whatever. Criticizing someone who is doing their best to communicate is not productive.  Pointing out errors, yes, privately, but calling someone out for commenting on mistakes made by others when he, himself, has made mistakes may feel good, but is, in my view, unproductive.  That's what I was referring to, Gene.

Sorry, I keep forgetting to quote stuff.  This mailer doesn't quote automatically.

Ann P.

Hi all,

Dave, I think you are trying to fence with a novice opponent.  You
might want to take on a fellow fencer who is closer to your level of expertise.

Ann P.

--
Ann K. Parsons
Portal Tutoring
EMAIL:  akp@...
Author of The Demmies: http://www.dldbooks.com/annparsons/
Portal Tutoring web site:  http://www.portaltutoring.info
Skype: Putertutor

"All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost."

How is this done? All I want to do is send something to someone else,
and I'm not interested in adding their address to my list of addresses
that only has one in it anyway.

On 3/6/2020 11:06 AM, Carolyn Arnold wrote:

Lan has video instructions on all of his products.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io
[mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io] On Behalf Of Ann Parsons
Sent: Friday, March 6, 2020 8:15 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

Morning all,

Several points have been made in this discussion, but I want
to concentrate on Dave's assertion, and his amusement.

Dave, let me explain something to you. Stop being grumpy
and listen.
There are people in this world who actually need braille,
not prefer it, or desire it, but actually need it. These
are our friends who are DeafBlind. They cannot use any
audio materials spoken by either human or synthetic voices.
They need braille.

Second, RE the matter of Free Matter for the Blind. I would
not want equipment of any kind shipped Free Matter because
it takes so long to ship and also because it is treated like
third class mail, the potential for damage is great! I
don't think you can ship computers Free Matter. It has to
be something specifically designed for the blind, not
something that is available to all.

Now as to instructions sent with equipment for the blind,
many companies which sell material specifically designed for
the blind do, not, ship, accessible instructions with their
products!! They don't ship large print. They don't ship
braille. They don't ship audio, nothing accessible, only a
printed pamphlet! This is unconscionable!
A person who is blind should receive instructions in some
kind of accessible format, period! It could be an audio CD,
or a braille hard copy or a braille file, but something!
Instead, they ship their products with printed instructions,
expecting the blind person to be able to access them
somehow. Roger Behm is the *only* businessman I know of who
ships accessible instructions and manuals without being
asked. I had to get sighted help to label a calculator for
a student because the company which sent the thing didn't
bother including accessible instructions.

Ann P.


Original message:

Gosh, a couple of you had me Laughing Out Loud!

Complaining about having to pay Postage, and that Braille

instructions

don[t come in the package?

Sheesh!  Be Dam Thankful you get an Audio file!   but,

Braille?

Now that was Funny!  I Needed a Good Laugh today.

Grumpy Dave

--
Ann K. Parsons
Portal Tutoring
EMAIL: akp@sero.email
Author of The Demmies: http://www.dldbooks.com/annparsons/
Portal Tutoring web site: http://www.portaltutoring.info
Skype: Putertutor

"All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost."

On 3/6/2020 10:24 AM, Carolyn Arnold wrote:

True enough. They have ballots in Spanish, but not Braille, and like my coworker said, back when I was still working, "you can't learn to see."

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io [mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io] On Behalf Of brian
Sent: Thursday, March 5, 2020 8:03 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

What do you have against braille? The sighted have print and we should have braille. Braille will always be the most efficient way to look somthing up just try to find what you want on an audio cd. We should have all braille and no audio.

Brian Sackrider

On 3/5/2020 7:35 PM, Dave wrote:

Gosh, a couple of you had me Laughing Out Loud!


Complaining about having to pay Postage, and that Braille instructions
don[t come in the package?


Sheesh! Be Dam Thankful you get an Audio file! but, Braille?


Now that was Funny! I Needed a Good Laugh today.


Grumpy Dave

    aAmen if you don't braille than you are not truly literate. If you
doubt this then read emails from blind people who don't know braille
there spelling and gramar and punctuation leave alot to be desired.  I
have been there myself if I don't read then I to will fall in to trap as
well.  If you truly want to be literate then you just have toread and
not just listen to audio.  Those of us who  do prefer braille and would
rather read than listen have only audio as the option all to often. For
me if I want to stay literate then I have to read braille and as I said
in my email to Grumpy Dave I can't amagine my life with out braille.  I
have had braille most of my life and I would loose independence ifI were
to not know braille.  Reading braille is active reading but listening to
audio or computer speech is just passive reading.  I prefer to activly
read but most of the time I can't because it's audio only.  I do rember
haveing to cary volumes of braille books acrost campus at the blind
school but I never gave it a though it was just what I hav to do it was
no problem for me at all.  The campus at the Michigan school for the
blind in Lansing Michigan covered a 4 city block area.  I tried college
back in 1987-1988 and I could have donee much better if I had braille. 
I had tapes from recording forthe blind but I had issues with the
readers with pronouncations.  I remember taking test and what I heard
during the test sounded nothing like what I heard on the tapes.  If I
would have had my books in braille I would have known the correct words
and the tests would have made sinse.  If yur going to read on tape then
you must be able to speak properly and say your words properly.  There
was the issue of only tape at a time and having to send 2 copies of
every book to recording for the blind to be recorded.  Audio is usless
if I don't know what you are saying. This is why we need braille. 
Braille readers don't make a big deal of how many volumes a book is it
just is.

Brian Sackrider

On 3/6/2020 7:26 AM, chris judge wrote:
> This is true. There is a huge difference between not learning braille if you've lost your site later in life. The unfortunate fact is that even people who are blind since birth are not learning braille at the rate they were when I was a kid 50 years ago. If you are blind since birth and you don't learn braille you miss out on basic literacy. How do you learn proper spelling, grammar, punctuation and such if you don't learn braile. If you have had site you already understand these things so knowing braille isn't as paramount.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Victor
> Sent: March 6, 2020 12:42 AM
> To: main@techtalk.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business
>
> Hello everyone:
>
> I would like to point out that many blind people lose their eyesight later in life and they find it too difficult to learn braille. It is much easier for them to access information by listening to audio. It’s hard enough for them to get over losing their eyesight and live without seeing their loved ones or other things ever again. The last thing they want is to learn a new skill that they may find just too difficult.
>
> After obtaining my iPhone, I attended a users group where are the people taught each other to use iOS devices. While at the group one day, one of the group leaders brought a focus 40 refreshable braille display for everyone to examine. I was the only blind person in the room interested in touching the device because I knew braille and I owned a previous generation of that device. It was not discussed, but I knew that they were not interested because most of them had lost their eyesight later in life. I suspect that they found it much easier to listen to audio than reading braille. Plus, most of them had learned how to access information using their iPhones. I’m sure they found it much easier to whip out their iPhones and listen to their books, podcasts, scan documents and do everything else we can do with our iPhones. I realize that not everyone owns a smart phone because they have not found a way to obtain one. I also realize that not everyone is into these types of gadgets. However, many blind people have discovered how great these gadgets are and how useful they can be in helping them become more independent. For many of us, that is the route we have chosen.
>
> In any case, don’t be too surprised if you meet a blind person who is not interested in learning braille. Don’t be too hard on those people. Maybe they just prefer to do what is easier.
>
> I am so glad that refreshable braille displays exist now. I am also glad that low cost refreshable braille displays are being developed. I definitely don’t miss the days of carrying bulky braille books to and from my classes. I do not miss the days of trying to look up words in the dictionary and dealing with a whole bookshelf of braille books. No thank you! I do not miss my five volume braille New Testament.
>
> If I did not already on a refreshable braille display, I would definitely look into obtaining the orbit braille reader or the braille me.
>
>
> Anyhow, these are just my rambling opinions.
>
> Victor Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Mar 5, 2020, at 7:40 PM, brian <bsackrider55@...> wrote:
>>
>>     Thanks Grumpy Dave for your explination.  I would be willing to pay a few dollars to get braille. I am not saying that I should get for free but not to have the option is my complaint.  My local liberary use to provide braille for 10 cents per page.   I was also told that if I provided the paper they would braille what I wanted.  They required 67 weight paper which I can get at Staples.  All to often we are forced to except only audio as the only format that is available. Braille will always be my prefered format because I prefer to read for myself instead of just listen.  You say that you hate braille but you can use it well I feel the same about audio.  Why do we have to be locked in to just one format?  How many people would rather read than listen?  Blind or sighted.  People who prefer to read than should be commended instead of being kind of bashed for it.  If not many blind people request braille than it should be no trouble to provide it. Braille is not that dificult to produce once you have the equipment.  my liberary had no trouble all they needed was files in microsoft word and the paper and they were good to go.  I use to get my weekly meterials for my church all in grade 2 braille. It was really great to finally be an active participant in the service instead just a pasive listener.  To be able to read along with everyone else the verses and hyms and classes lessons is a great feeling you just can't discribe the independence that it givesyou.  It's kind of like having access to dvs you can finally know what is going on when there is all of that dead air.  I was able to read infront of the church and be active in bible study and even lead the groop all using braille.  I do use braille menus when ever possible even if I don't really need it just to let them see that somone is acually using it.  Braille has given me a very full life and I don't know whear my life would be with out braille.  I feel that every blind person who is able to read braille should learn it.  I do understand that there are blind people who have medical conditions that prevents them from being able to read braille.  For them they have no choice but to use audio but I do have the choice I just don't like being limited to just audio only and not braille.  You hate braille and I hate audio.  a good example of when I wish that I had braille instead of a file was when I requested my local newspaper to be accessable.  my lions club purchassed a sara reading machine for me there was no braille manual but there was a print manual.  I had to go to the help file on the machine and try to find what I wanted.  When I called the paper office they asked what files my machine could read.  If I had a braille manual I could have just looked it up while on the phone and gave them the answer.  I had to call back after I went to the help file and found it.  This is very time concuming I can look up somthing much faster in braille than any other format.  I am not saying that I can do it as quick as a sighted person can with print but for me it's the fastest way for me to get the job done.  When I was a kid I attended the Michigan school the blind in Lansing and we had to learn braille and all of our books were in braille.  There was no I don't want to learn it you had to.  I will say that I can certainly listen much faster than I can read but when it comes to looking up somthing braille is faster hands down.  I have been blind since birth and thats all I ever knew was braille.  It's like the sighted grew up with print.  I wanted to learn the opticon at the rehab center but they would not let me because they said that I was not fast enough.  I felt that I was learning and making progress and I should had the right to continue but they said no. If somone really wants to learn a new skil then they should beallowed to do so.  If I am determind to learn somthing that then I will even though it might take more time then the teacher would like.  I guess that modavation means nothing.  If somone reallly wants to learn braille so what ifit takes several month to do so they should not be told no you can't continue.  If companies had the equipment to produce braille they could charge me for the cost of the paper to get braille manuals or catalogs.
>>
>>> On 3/5/2020 9:26 PM, Dave wrote:
>>> Hello Brian,
>>>
>>>
>>> I have nothing against Braille other than the hassle it is to create
>>> it, such as a Manual in Braille.
>>>
>>>
>>> I've been blind for a long time now, and there were many times when I
>>> would have Kissed the Feet of anyone who gave me a manual in Audio
>>> format.  many times have I had to just Wing it, learning by Guess and
>>> by Golly.  Once Computers became a Tool for the Blind, Guessing was
>>> not always the best thing to do, as guessing wrong could ruin your
>>> day in a Big way.  Still can.
>>>
>>>
>>> but, Brian, I have no Beef with Braille.   To produce it is just not an
>>> easy task.  And I would guess that most manufacturers of items for
>>> the blind, may not want to hire another Staff member to do nothing
>>> but print out Manuals in Braille.
>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, it all sounds good, until the costs of doing such a thing is
>>> considered.
>>>
>>>
>>> These days, I do expect a Manual at least in a PDF format, if not an
>>> Audio file.  And if I own my own Braille Printer, I can then print
>>> out the PDF file.
>>>
>>>
>>> Although, I can't afford one of those printers, so I do without.
>>>
>>>
>>> However,  I could run the Audio file through an Audio to Text
>>> converter, and then print that file out in Braille.
>>>
>>>
>>> When I get nothing but an On Line Manual, where I need to go On Line
>>> to read the thing.  I am Thankful for at least that much, but I
>>> always look to see if I can just download the manual so I don't need
>>> to be going On Line so much.
>>>
>>>
>>> Call it my personal Taste.
>>>
>>>
>>> I would think most who are Blind have learned over and over again to
>>> look for Work Arounds for doing many things in Life.
>>>
>>>
>>> You like Braille, and while I do use it, I Hate it.  So a Braille
>>> Manual would be a waste of resources to send me one.
>>>
>>>
>>> You Love it, and can use it well.  So, when the Company doesn't send
>>> a manual in Braille, but has sent you one in PDF, or even Audio, if
>>> you want a manual in Braille, the Work around is to convert that Audio or
>>> PDF file into Braille.   And if you are like me, and can't afford a
>>> Braille Printer, there are Services that will take your Manual file
>>> and make you a manual in Braille.
>>>
>>>
>>> it may cost you a few dollars, which again is all part of the Life of
>>> someone who is Blind.  In the past, I have hired Readers to read
>>> Manuals on Tape.  Paid them $10 for every hour of Recorded material.
>>>
>>>
>>> I've paid people to read my Mail.  This was before smart Phones had
>>> built in Cameras and OCR programs.   I paid them $10 an hour too. this
>>> was back in the 1980's and 90's.
>>>
>>>
>>> I haven't had to hire anyone for about 20 years now
>>>
>>>
>>> And Dare I bring up the Quality of Manuals?  So often, regardless of
>>> what Format it comes in, the information in the thing is totally Nuts!
>>> It doesn't make Sense, and you can't tell if it is a Translation of
>>> something in Chinese to English, or from Chinese to Spanish and then
>>> Russian, and then to English etc.
>>>
>>>
>>> And some manuals that come in English  are so poorly written, lack
>>> helpful information and seem to be missing a great deal of actual
>>> instructional information and are next to useless in any format.
>>>
>>>
>>> Grumpy Dave
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of brian
Sent: Friday, March 6, 2020 2:01 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

aAmen if you don't braille than you are not truly literate. If you
doubt this then read emails from blind people who don't know braille
there spelling and gramar and punctuation leave alot to be desired. I
have been there myself if I don't read then I to will fall in to trap as
well. If you truly want to be literate then you just have toread and
not just listen to audio. Those of us who do prefer braille and would
rather read than listen have only audio as the option all to often. For
me if I want to stay literate then I have to read braille and as I said
in my email to Grumpy Dave I can't amagine my life with out braille. I
have had braille most of my life and I would loose independence ifI were
to not know braille. Reading braille is active reading but listening to
audio or computer speech is just passive reading. I prefer to activly
read but most of the time I can't because it's audio only. I do rember
haveing to cary volumes of braille books acrost campus at the blind
school but I never gave it a though it was just what I hav to do it was
no problem for me at all. The campus at the Michigan school for the
blind in Lansing Michigan covered a 4 city block area. I tried college
back in 1987-1988 and I could have donee much better if I had braille.
I had tapes from recording forthe blind but I had issues with the
readers with pronouncations. I remember taking test and what I heard
during the test sounded nothing like what I heard on the tapes. If I
would have had my books in braille I would have known the correct words
and the tests would have made sinse. If yur going to read on tape then
you must be able to speak properly and say your words properly. There
was the issue of only tape at a time and having to send 2 copies of
every book to recording for the blind to be recorded. Audio is usless
if I don't know what you are saying. This is why we need braille.
Braille readers don't make a big deal of how many volumes a book is it
just is.

Brian Sackrider

On 3/6/2020 7:26 AM, chris judge wrote:

This is true. There is a huge difference between not learning braille if you've lost your site later in life. The unfortunate fact is that even people who are blind since birth are not learning braille at the rate they were when I was a kid 50 years ago. If you are blind since birth and you don't learn braille you miss out on basic literacy. How do you learn proper spelling, grammar, punctuation and such if you don't learn braile. If you have had site you already understand these things so knowing braille isn't as paramount.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Victor
Sent: March 6, 2020 12:42 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

Hello everyone:

I would like to point out that many blind people lose their eyesight later in life and they find it too difficult to learn braille. It is much easier for them to access information by listening to audio. It’s hard enough for them to get over losing their eyesight and live without seeing their loved ones or other things ever again. The last thing they want is to learn a new skill that they may find just too difficult.

After obtaining my iPhone, I attended a users group where are the people taught each other to use iOS devices. While at the group one day, one of the group leaders brought a focus 40 refreshable braille display for everyone to examine. I was the only blind person in the room interested in touching the device because I knew braille and I owned a previous generation of that device. It was not discussed, but I knew that they were not interested because most of them had lost their eyesight later in life. I suspect that they found it much easier to listen to audio than reading braille. Plus, most of them had learned how to access information using their iPhones. I’m sure they found it much easier to whip out their iPhones and listen to their books, podcasts, scan documents and do everything else we can do with our iPhones. I realize that not everyone owns a smart phone because they have not found a way to obtain one. I also realize that not everyone is into these types of gadgets. However, many blind people have discovered how great these gadgets are and how useful they can be in helping them become more independent. For many of us, that is the route we have chosen.

In any case, don’t be too surprised if you meet a blind person who is not interested in learning braille. Don’t be too hard on those people. Maybe they just prefer to do what is easier.

I am so glad that refreshable braille displays exist now. I am also glad that low cost refreshable braille displays are being developed. I definitely don’t miss the days of carrying bulky braille books to and from my classes. I do not miss the days of trying to look up words in the dictionary and dealing with a whole bookshelf of braille books. No thank you! I do not miss my five volume braille New Testament.

If I did not already on a refreshable braille display, I would definitely look into obtaining the orbit braille reader or the braille me.


Anyhow, these are just my rambling opinions.

Victor Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 5, 2020, at 7:40 PM, brian <bsackrider55@gmail.com> wrote:

 Thanks Grumpy Dave for your explination. I would be willing to pay a few dollars to get braille. I am not saying that I should get for free but not to have the option is my complaint. My local liberary use to provide braille for 10 cents per page. I was also told that if I provided the paper they would braille what I wanted. They required 67 weight paper which I can get at Staples. All to often we are forced to except only audio as the only format that is available. Braille will always be my prefered format because I prefer to read for myself instead of just listen. You say that you hate braille but you can use it well I feel the same about audio. Why do we have to be locked in to just one format? How many people would rather read than listen? Blind or sighted. People who prefer to read than should be commended instead of being kind of bashed for it. If not many blind people request braille than it should be no trouble to provide it. Braille is not that dificult to produce once you have the equipment. my liberary had no trouble all they needed was files in microsoft word and the paper and they were good to go. I use to get my weekly meterials for my church all in grade 2 braille. It was really great to finally be an active participant in the service instead just a pasive listener. To be able to read along with everyone else the verses and hyms and classes lessons is a great feeling you just can't discribe the independence that it givesyou. It's kind of like having access to dvs you can finally know what is going on when there is all of that dead air. I was able to read infront of the church and be active in bible study and even lead the groop all using braille. I do use braille menus when ever possible even if I don't really need it just to let them see that somone is acually using it. Braille has given me a very full life and I don't know whear my life would be with out braille. I feel that every blind person who is able to read braille should learn it. I do understand that there are blind people who have medical conditions that prevents them from being able to read braille. For them they have no choice but to use audio but I do have the choice I just don't like being limited to just audio only and not braille. You hate braille and I hate audio. a good example of when I wish that I had braille instead of a file was when I requested my local newspaper to be accessable. my lions club purchassed a sara reading machine for me there was no braille manual but there was a print manual. I had to go to the help file on the machine and try to find what I wanted. When I called the paper office they asked what files my machine could read. If I had a braille manual I could have just looked it up while on the phone and gave them the answer. I had to call back after I went to the help file and found it. This is very time concuming I can look up somthing much faster in braille than any other format. I am not saying that I can do it as quick as a sighted person can with print but for me it's the fastest way for me to get the job done. When I was a kid I attended the Michigan school the blind in Lansing and we had to learn braille and all of our books were in braille. There was no I don't want to learn it you had to. I will say that I can certainly listen much faster than I can read but when it comes to looking up somthing braille is faster hands down. I have been blind since birth and thats all I ever knew was braille. It's like the sighted grew up with print. I wanted to learn the opticon at the rehab center but they would not let me because they said that I was not fast enough. I felt that I was learning and making progress and I should had the right to continue but they said no. If somone really wants to learn a new skil then they should beallowed to do so. If I am determind to learn somthing that then I will even though it might take more time then the teacher would like. I guess that modavation means nothing. If somone reallly wants to learn braille so what ifit takes several month to do so they should not be told no you can't continue. If companies had the equipment to produce braille they could charge me for the cost of the paper to get braille manuals or catalogs.

On 3/5/2020 9:26 PM, Dave wrote:
Hello Brian,


I have nothing against Braille other than the hassle it is to create
it, such as a Manual in Braille.


I've been blind for a long time now, and there were many times when I
would have Kissed the Feet of anyone who gave me a manual in Audio
format. many times have I had to just Wing it, learning by Guess and
by Golly. Once Computers became a Tool for the Blind, Guessing was
not always the best thing to do, as guessing wrong could ruin your
day in a Big way. Still can.


but, Brian, I have no Beef with Braille. To produce it is just not an
easy task. And I would guess that most manufacturers of items for
the blind, may not want to hire another Staff member to do nothing
but print out Manuals in Braille.


Yes, it all sounds good, until the costs of doing such a thing is
considered.


These days, I do expect a Manual at least in a PDF format, if not an
Audio file. And if I own my own Braille Printer, I can then print
out the PDF file.


Although, I can't afford one of those printers, so I do without.


However, I could run the Audio file through an Audio to Text
converter, and then print that file out in Braille.


When I get nothing but an On Line Manual, where I need to go On Line
to read the thing. I am Thankful for at least that much, but I
always look to see if I can just download the manual so I don't need
to be going On Line so much.


Call it my personal Taste.


I would think most who are Blind have learned over and over again to
look for Work Arounds for doing many things in Life.


You like Braille, and while I do use it, I Hate it. So a Braille
Manual would be a waste of resources to send me one.


You Love it, and can use it well. So, when the Company doesn't send
a manual in Braille, but has sent you one in PDF, or even Audio, if
you want a manual in Braille, the Work around is to convert that Audio or
PDF file into Braille. And if you are like me, and can't afford a
Braille Printer, there are Services that will take your Manual file
and make you a manual in Braille.


it may cost you a few dollars, which again is all part of the Life of
someone who is Blind. In the past, I have hired Readers to read
Manuals on Tape. Paid them $10 for every hour of Recorded material.


I've paid people to read my Mail. This was before smart Phones had
built in Cameras and OCR programs. I paid them $10 an hour too. this
was back in the 1980's and 90's.


I haven't had to hire anyone for about 20 years now


And Dare I bring up the Quality of Manuals? So often, regardless of
what Format it comes in, the information in the thing is totally Nuts!
It doesn't make Sense, and you can't tell if it is a Translation of
something in Chinese to English, or from Chinese to Spanish and then
Russian, and then to English etc.


And some manuals that come in English are so poorly written, lack
helpful information and seem to be missing a great deal of actual
instructional information and are next to useless in any format.


Grumpy Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: brian
Sent: Friday, March 6, 2020 12:01 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

aAmen if you don't braille than you are not truly literate. If you
doubt this then read emails from blind people who don't know braille
there spelling and gramar and punctuation leave alot to be desired. I
have been there myself if I don't read then I to will fall in to trap as
well. If you truly want to be literate then you just have toread and
not just listen to audio. Those of us who do prefer braille and would
rather read than listen have only audio as the option all to often. For
me if I want to stay literate then I have to read braille and as I said
in my email to Grumpy Dave I can't amagine my life with out braille. I
have had braille most of my life and I would loose independence ifI were
to not know braille. Reading braille is active reading but listening to
audio or computer speech is just passive reading. I prefer to activly
read but most of the time I can't because it's audio only. I do rember
haveing to cary volumes of braille books acrost campus at the blind
school but I never gave it a though it was just what I hav to do it was
no problem for me at all. The campus at the Michigan school for the
blind in Lansing Michigan covered a 4 city block area. I tried college
back in 1987-1988 and I could have donee much better if I had braille.
I had tapes from recording forthe blind but I had issues with the
readers with pronouncations. I remember taking test and what I heard
during the test sounded nothing like what I heard on the tapes. If I
would have had my books in braille I would have known the correct words
and the tests would have made sinse. If yur going to read on tape then
you must be able to speak properly and say your words properly. There
was the issue of only tape at a time and having to send 2 copies of
every book to recording for the blind to be recorded. Audio is usless
if I don't know what you are saying. This is why we need braille.
Braille readers don't make a big deal of how many volumes a book is it
just is.

Brian Sackrider

On 3/6/2020 7:26 AM, chris judge wrote:

This is true. There is a huge difference between not learning braille if
you've lost your site later in life. The unfortunate fact is that even
people who are blind since birth are not learning braille at the rate they
were when I was a kid 50 years ago. If you are blind since birth and you
don't learn braille you miss out on basic literacy. How do you learn
proper spelling, grammar, punctuation and such if you don't learn braile.
If you have had site you already understand these things so knowing
braille isn't as paramount.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of
Victor
Sent: March 6, 2020 12:42 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

Hello everyone:

I would like to point out that many blind people lose their eyesight later
in life and they find it too difficult to learn braille. It is much easier
for them to access information by listening to audio. It’s hard enough for
them to get over losing their eyesight and live without seeing their loved
ones or other things ever again. The last thing they want is to learn a
new skill that they may find just too difficult.

After obtaining my iPhone, I attended a users group where are the people
taught each other to use iOS devices. While at the group one day, one of
the group leaders brought a focus 40 refreshable braille display for
everyone to examine. I was the only blind person in the room interested in
touching the device because I knew braille and I owned a previous
generation of that device. It was not discussed, but I knew that they were
not interested because most of them had lost their eyesight later in life.
I suspect that they found it much easier to listen to audio than reading
braille. Plus, most of them had learned how to access information using
their iPhones. I’m sure they found it much easier to whip out their
iPhones and listen to their books, podcasts, scan documents and do
everything else we can do with our iPhones. I realize that not everyone
owns a smart phone because they have not found a way to obtain one. I also
realize that not everyone is into these types of gadgets. However, many
blind people have discovered how great these gadgets are and how useful
they can be in helping them become more independent. For many of us, that
is the route we have chosen.

In any case, don’t be too surprised if you meet a blind person who is not
interested in learning braille. Don’t be too hard on those people. Maybe
they just prefer to do what is easier.

I am so glad that refreshable braille displays exist now. I am also glad
that low cost refreshable braille displays are being developed. I
definitely don’t miss the days of carrying bulky braille books to and from
my classes. I do not miss the days of trying to look up words in the
dictionary and dealing with a whole bookshelf of braille books. No thank
you! I do not miss my five volume braille New Testament.

If I did not already on a refreshable braille display, I would definitely
look into obtaining the orbit braille reader or the braille me.


Anyhow, these are just my rambling opinions.

Victor Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 5, 2020, at 7:40 PM, brian <bsackrider55@gmail.com> wrote:

 Thanks Grumpy Dave for your explination. I would be willing to pay
a few dollars to get braille. I am not saying that I should get for free
but not to have the option is my complaint. My local liberary use to
provide braille for 10 cents per page. I was also told that if I
provided the paper they would braille what I wanted. They required 67
weight paper which I can get at Staples. All to often we are forced to
except only audio as the only format that is available. Braille will
always be my prefered format because I prefer to read for myself instead
of just listen. You say that you hate braille but you can use it well I
feel the same about audio. Why do we have to be locked in to just one
format? How many people would rather read than listen? Blind or
sighted. People who prefer to read than should be commended instead of
being kind of bashed for it. If not many blind people request braille
than it should be no trouble to provide it. Braille is not that dificult
to produce once you have the equipment. my liberary had no trouble all
they needed was files in microsoft word and the paper and they were good
to go. I use to get my weekly meterials for my church all in grade 2
braille. It was really great to finally be an active participant in the
service instead just a pasive listener. To be able to read along with
everyone else the verses and hyms and classes lessons is a great feeling
you just can't discribe the independence that it givesyou. It's kind of
like having access to dvs you can finally know what is going on when
there is all of that dead air. I was able to read infront of the church
and be active in bible study and even lead the groop all using braille.
I do use braille menus when ever possible even if I don't really need it
just to let them see that somone is acually using it. Braille has given
me a very full life and I don't know whear my life would be with out
braille. I feel that every blind person who is able to read braille
should learn it. I do understand that there are blind people who have
medical conditions that prevents them from being able to read braille.
For them they have no choice but to use audio but I do have the choice I
just don't like being limited to just audio only and not braille. You
hate braille and I hate audio. a good example of when I wish that I had
braille instead of a file was when I requested my local newspaper to be
accessable. my lions club purchassed a sara reading machine for me there
was no braille manual but there was a print manual. I had to go to the
help file on the machine and try to find what I wanted. When I called
the paper office they asked what files my machine could read. If I had a
braille manual I could have just looked it up while on the phone and gave
them the answer. I had to call back after I went to the help file and
found it. This is very time concuming I can look up somthing much faster
in braille than any other format. I am not saying that I can do it as
quick as a sighted person can with print but for me it's the fastest way
for me to get the job done. When I was a kid I attended the Michigan
school the blind in Lansing and we had to learn braille and all of our
books were in braille. There was no I don't want to learn it you had to.
I will say that I can certainly listen much faster than I can read but
when it comes to looking up somthing braille is faster hands down. I
have been blind since birth and thats all I ever knew was braille. It's
like the sighted grew up with print. I wanted to learn the opticon at
the rehab center but they would not let me because they said that I was
not fast enough. I felt that I was learning and making progress and I
should had the right to continue but they said no. If somone really wants
to learn a new skil then they should beallowed to do so. If I am
determind to learn somthing that then I will even though it might take
more time then the teacher would like. I guess that modavation means
nothing. If somone reallly wants to learn braille so what ifit takes
several month to do so they should not be told no you can't continue. If
companies had the equipment to produce braille they could charge me for
the cost of the paper to get braille manuals or catalogs.

On 3/5/2020 9:26 PM, Dave wrote:
Hello Brian,


I have nothing against Braille other than the hassle it is to create
it, such as a Manual in Braille.


I've been blind for a long time now, and there were many times when I
would have Kissed the Feet of anyone who gave me a manual in Audio
format. many times have I had to just Wing it, learning by Guess and
by Golly. Once Computers became a Tool for the Blind, Guessing was
not always the best thing to do, as guessing wrong could ruin your
day in a Big way. Still can.


but, Brian, I have no Beef with Braille. To produce it is just not an
easy task. And I would guess that most manufacturers of items for
the blind, may not want to hire another Staff member to do nothing
but print out Manuals in Braille.


Yes, it all sounds good, until the costs of doing such a thing is
considered.


These days, I do expect a Manual at least in a PDF format, if not an
Audio file. And if I own my own Braille Printer, I can then print
out the PDF file.


Although, I can't afford one of those printers, so I do without.


However, I could run the Audio file through an Audio to Text
converter, and then print that file out in Braille.


When I get nothing but an On Line Manual, where I need to go On Line
to read the thing. I am Thankful for at least that much, but I
always look to see if I can just download the manual so I don't need
to be going On Line so much.


Call it my personal Taste.


I would think most who are Blind have learned over and over again to
look for Work Arounds for doing many things in Life.


You like Braille, and while I do use it, I Hate it. So a Braille
Manual would be a waste of resources to send me one.


You Love it, and can use it well. So, when the Company doesn't send
a manual in Braille, but has sent you one in PDF, or even Audio, if
you want a manual in Braille, the Work around is to convert that Audio
or
PDF file into Braille. And if you are like me, and can't afford a
Braille Printer, there are Services that will take your Manual file
and make you a manual in Braille.


it may cost you a few dollars, which again is all part of the Life of
someone who is Blind. In the past, I have hired Readers to read
Manuals on Tape. Paid them $10 for every hour of Recorded material.


I've paid people to read my Mail. This was before smart Phones had
built in Cameras and OCR programs. I paid them $10 an hour too. this
was back in the 1980's and 90's.


I haven't had to hire anyone for about 20 years now


And Dare I bring up the Quality of Manuals? So often, regardless of
what Format it comes in, the information in the thing is totally Nuts!
It doesn't make Sense, and you can't tell if it is a Translation of
something in Chinese to English, or from Chinese to Spanish and then
Russian, and then to English etc.


And some manuals that come in English are so poorly written, lack
helpful information and seem to be missing a great deal of actual
instructional information and are next to useless in any format.


Grumpy Dave

On 3/6/2020 8:14 AM, Ann Parsons wrote:

Morning all,

Several points have been made in this discussion, but I want to concentrate on Dave's assertion, and his amusement.

Dave, let me explain something to you.  Stop being grumpy and listen.  There are people in this world who actually need braille, not prefer it, or desire it, but actually need it.  These are our friends who are DeafBlind.  They cannot use any audio materials spoken by either human or synthetic voices.  They need braille.

Second, RE the matter of Free Matter for the Blind.  I would not want equipment of any kind shipped Free Matter because it takes so long to ship and also because it is treated like third class mail, the potential for damage is great!  I don't think you can ship computers Free Matter.  It has to be something specifically designed for the blind, not something that is available to all.

Now as to instructions sent with equipment for the blind, many companies which sell material specifically designed for the blind do, not, ship, accessible instructions with their products!!  They don't ship large print.  They don't ship braille.  They don't ship audio, nothing accessible, only a printed pamphlet!  This is unconscionable!  A person who is blind should receive instructions in some kind of accessible format, period!  It could be an audio CD, or a braille hard copy or a braille file, but something! Instead, they ship their products with printed instructions, expecting the blind person to be able to access them somehow. Roger Behm is the *only* businessman I know of who ships accessible instructions and manuals without being asked.  I had to get sighted help to label a calculator for a student because the company which sent the thing didn't bother including accessible instructions.

Ann P.


Original message:

Gosh, a couple of you had me Laughing Out Loud!

Complaining about having to pay Postage, and that Braille instructions
don[t come in the package?

Sheesh!  Be Dam Thankful you get an Audio file!   but, Braille?

Now that was Funny!  I Needed a Good Laugh today.

Grumpy Dave

On 3/6/2020 7:26 AM, chris judge wrote:

This is true. There is a huge difference between not learning braille if you've lost your site later in life. The unfortunate fact is that even people who are blind since birth are not learning braille at the rate they were when I was a kid 50 years ago. If you are blind since birth and you don't learn braille you miss out on basic literacy. How do you learn proper spelling, grammar, punctuation and such if you don't learn braile. If you have had site you already understand these things so knowing braille isn't as paramount.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Victor
Sent: March 6, 2020 12:42 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

Hello everyone:

I would like to point out that many blind people lose their eyesight later in life and they find it too difficult to learn braille. It is much easier for them to access information by listening to audio. It’s hard enough for them to get over losing their eyesight and live without seeing their loved ones or other things ever again. The last thing they want is to learn a new skill that they may find just too difficult.

After obtaining my iPhone, I attended a users group where are the people taught each other to use iOS devices. While at the group one day, one of the group leaders brought a focus 40 refreshable braille display for everyone to examine. I was the only blind person in the room interested in touching the device because I knew braille and I owned a previous generation of that device. It was not discussed, but I knew that they were not interested because most of them had lost their eyesight later in life. I suspect that they found it much easier to listen to audio than reading braille. Plus, most of them had learned how to access information using their iPhones. I’m sure they found it much easier to whip out their iPhones and listen to their books, podcasts, scan documents and do everything else we can do with our iPhones. I realize that not everyone owns a smart phone because they have not found a way to obtain one. I also realize that not everyone is into these types of gadgets. However, many blind people have discovered how great these gadgets are and how useful they can be in helping them become more independent. For many of us, that is the route we have chosen.

In any case, don’t be too surprised if you meet a blind person who is not interested in learning braille. Don’t be too hard on those people. Maybe they just prefer to do what is easier.

I am so glad that refreshable braille displays exist now. I am also glad that low cost refreshable braille displays are being developed. I definitely don’t miss the days of carrying bulky braille books to and from my classes. I do not miss the days of trying to look up words in the dictionary and dealing with a whole bookshelf of braille books. No thank you! I do not miss my five volume braille New Testament.

If I did not already on a refreshable braille display, I would definitely look into obtaining the orbit braille reader or the braille me.


Anyhow, these are just my rambling opinions.

Victor Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 5, 2020, at 7:40 PM, brian <bsackrider55@gmail.com> wrote:

 Thanks Grumpy Dave for your explination. I would be willing to pay a few dollars to get braille. I am not saying that I should get for free but not to have the option is my complaint. My local liberary use to provide braille for 10 cents per page. I was also told that if I provided the paper they would braille what I wanted. They required 67 weight paper which I can get at Staples. All to often we are forced to except only audio as the only format that is available. Braille will always be my prefered format because I prefer to read for myself instead of just listen. You say that you hate braille but you can use it well I feel the same about audio. Why do we have to be locked in to just one format? How many people would rather read than listen? Blind or sighted. People who prefer to read than should be commended instead of being kind of bashed for it. If not many blind people request braille than it should be no trouble to provide it. Braille is not that dificult to produce once you have the equipment. my liberary had no trouble all they needed was files in microsoft word and the paper and they were good to go. I use to get my weekly meterials for my church all in grade 2 braille. It was really great to finally be an active participant in the service instead just a pasive listener. To be able to read along with everyone else the verses and hyms and classes lessons is a great feeling you just can't discribe the independence that it givesyou. It's kind of like having access to dvs you can finally know what is going on when there is all of that dead air. I was able to read infront of the church and be active in bible study and even lead the groop all using braille. I do use braille menus when ever possible even if I don't really need it just to let them see that somone is acually using it. Braille has given me a very full life and I don't know whear my life would be with out braille. I feel that every blind person who is able to read braille should learn it. I do understand that there are blind people who have medical conditions that prevents them from being able to read braille. For them they have no choice but to use audio but I do have the choice I just don't like being limited to just audio only and not braille. You hate braille and I hate audio. a good example of when I wish that I had braille instead of a file was when I requested my local newspaper to be accessable. my lions club purchassed a sara reading machine for me there was no braille manual but there was a print manual. I had to go to the help file on the machine and try to find what I wanted. When I called the paper office they asked what files my machine could read. If I had a braille manual I could have just looked it up while on the phone and gave them the answer. I had to call back after I went to the help file and found it. This is very time concuming I can look up somthing much faster in braille than any other format. I am not saying that I can do it as quick as a sighted person can with print but for me it's the fastest way for me to get the job done. When I was a kid I attended the Michigan school the blind in Lansing and we had to learn braille and all of our books were in braille. There was no I don't want to learn it you had to. I will say that I can certainly listen much faster than I can read but when it comes to looking up somthing braille is faster hands down. I have been blind since birth and thats all I ever knew was braille. It's like the sighted grew up with print. I wanted to learn the opticon at the rehab center but they would not let me because they said that I was not fast enough. I felt that I was learning and making progress and I should had the right to continue but they said no. If somone really wants to learn a new skil then they should beallowed to do so. If I am determind to learn somthing that then I will even though it might take more time then the teacher would like. I guess that modavation means nothing. If somone reallly wants to learn braille so what ifit takes several month to do so they should not be told no you can't continue. If companies had the equipment to produce braille they could charge me for the cost of the paper to get braille manuals or catalogs.

On 3/5/2020 9:26 PM, Dave wrote:
Hello Brian,


I have nothing against Braille other than the hassle it is to create
it, such as a Manual in Braille.


I've been blind for a long time now, and there were many times when I
would have Kissed the Feet of anyone who gave me a manual in Audio
format. many times have I had to just Wing it, learning by Guess and
by Golly. Once Computers became a Tool for the Blind, Guessing was
not always the best thing to do, as guessing wrong could ruin your
day in a Big way. Still can.


but, Brian, I have no Beef with Braille. To produce it is just not an
easy task. And I would guess that most manufacturers of items for
the blind, may not want to hire another Staff member to do nothing
but print out Manuals in Braille.


Yes, it all sounds good, until the costs of doing such a thing is
considered.


These days, I do expect a Manual at least in a PDF format, if not an
Audio file. And if I own my own Braille Printer, I can then print
out the PDF file.


Although, I can't afford one of those printers, so I do without.


However, I could run the Audio file through an Audio to Text
converter, and then print that file out in Braille.


When I get nothing but an On Line Manual, where I need to go On Line
to read the thing. I am Thankful for at least that much, but I
always look to see if I can just download the manual so I don't need
to be going On Line so much.


Call it my personal Taste.


I would think most who are Blind have learned over and over again to
look for Work Arounds for doing many things in Life.


You like Braille, and while I do use it, I Hate it. So a Braille
Manual would be a waste of resources to send me one.


You Love it, and can use it well. So, when the Company doesn't send
a manual in Braille, but has sent you one in PDF, or even Audio, if
you want a manual in Braille, the Work around is to convert that Audio or
PDF file into Braille. And if you are like me, and can't afford a
Braille Printer, there are Services that will take your Manual file
and make you a manual in Braille.


it may cost you a few dollars, which again is all part of the Life of
someone who is Blind. In the past, I have hired Readers to read
Manuals on Tape. Paid them $10 for every hour of Recorded material.


I've paid people to read my Mail. This was before smart Phones had
built in Cameras and OCR programs. I paid them $10 an hour too. this
was back in the 1980's and 90's.


I haven't had to hire anyone for about 20 years now


And Dare I bring up the Quality of Manuals? So often, regardless of
what Format it comes in, the information in the thing is totally Nuts!
It doesn't make Sense, and you can't tell if it is a Translation of
something in Chinese to English, or from Chinese to Spanish and then
Russian, and then to English etc.


And some manuals that come in English are so poorly written, lack
helpful information and seem to be missing a great deal of actual
instructional information and are next to useless in any format.


Grumpy Dave

On 3/6/2020 8:14 AM, Ann Parsons wrote:

Morning all,

Several points have been made in this discussion, but I want to concentrate on Dave's assertion, and his amusement.

Dave, let me explain something to you.  Stop being grumpy and listen.  There are people in this world who actually need braille, not prefer it, or desire it, but actually need it.  These are our friends who are DeafBlind.  They cannot use any audio materials spoken by either human or synthetic voices.  They need braille.

Second, RE the matter of Free Matter for the Blind.  I would not want equipment of any kind shipped Free Matter because it takes so long to ship and also because it is treated like third class mail, the potential for damage is great!  I don't think you can ship computers Free Matter.  It has to be something specifically designed for the blind, not something that is available to all.

Now as to instructions sent with equipment for the blind, many companies which sell material specifically designed for the blind do, not, ship, accessible instructions with their products!!  They don't ship large print.  They don't ship braille.  They don't ship audio, nothing accessible, only a printed pamphlet!  This is unconscionable!  A person who is blind should receive instructions in some kind of accessible format, period!  It could be an audio CD, or a braille hard copy or a braille file, but something! Instead, they ship their products with printed instructions, expecting the blind person to be able to access them somehow. Roger Behm is the *only* businessman I know of who ships accessible instructions and manuals without being asked.  I had to get sighted help to label a calculator for a student because the company which sent the thing didn't bother including accessible instructions.

Ann P.


Original message:

Gosh, a couple of you had me Laughing Out Loud!

Complaining about having to pay Postage, and that Braille instructions
don[t come in the package?

Sheesh!  Be Dam Thankful you get an Audio file!   but, Braille?

Now that was Funny!  I Needed a Good Laugh today.

Grumpy Dave

On 3/6/20, Carolyn Arnold <4carolyna@windstream.net> wrote:

Lan has video instructions on all of his products.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io
[mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io] On Behalf Of Ann Parsons
Sent: Friday, March 6, 2020 8:15 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

Morning all,

Several points have been made in this discussion, but I want
to concentrate on Dave's assertion, and his amusement.

Dave, let me explain something to you. Stop being grumpy
and listen.
There are people in this world who actually need braille,
not prefer it, or desire it, but actually need it. These
are our friends who are DeafBlind. They cannot use any
audio materials spoken by either human or synthetic voices.
They need braille.

Second, RE the matter of Free Matter for the Blind. I would
not want equipment of any kind shipped Free Matter because
it takes so long to ship and also because it is treated like
third class mail, the potential for damage is great! I
don't think you can ship computers Free Matter. It has to
be something specifically designed for the blind, not
something that is available to all.

Now as to instructions sent with equipment for the blind,
many companies which sell material specifically designed for
the blind do, not, ship, accessible instructions with their
products!! They don't ship large print. They don't ship
braille. They don't ship audio, nothing accessible, only a
printed pamphlet! This is unconscionable!
A person who is blind should receive instructions in some
kind of accessible format, period! It could be an audio CD,
or a braille hard copy or a braille file, but something!
Instead, they ship their products with printed instructions,
expecting the blind person to be able to access them
somehow. Roger Behm is the *only* businessman I know of who
ships accessible instructions and manuals without being
asked. I had to get sighted help to label a calculator for
a student because the company which sent the thing didn't
bother including accessible instructions.

Ann P.


Original message:

Gosh, a couple of you had me Laughing Out Loud!

Complaining about having to pay Postage, and that Braille

instructions

don[t come in the package?

Sheesh! Be Dam Thankful you get an Audio file! but,

Braille?

Now that was Funny! I Needed a Good Laugh today.

Grumpy Dave

--
Ann K. Parsons
Portal Tutoring
EMAIL: akp@sero.email
Author of The Demmies: http://www.dldbooks.com/annparsons/
Portal Tutoring web site: http://www.portaltutoring.info
Skype: Putertutor

"All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost."

On 3/6/20, Marie <magpie.mn@comcast.net> wrote:

Very well said, Victor. Since I am one of the group you mentioned I remember

the incident and since I am also one of the people who had some useable
sight until fairly late in life, I could not agree with you more.
At 59 I did not want to learn braille other than the alphabet. And I would
put my skills with audio and digital media up against the braille user any
day.



-----Original Message-----
From: Victor
Sent: Thursday, March 5, 2020 8:42 PM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

Hello everyone:

I would like to point out that many blind people lose their eyesight later
in life and they find it too difficult to learn braille. It is much easier
for them to access information by listening to audio. It’s hard enough for
them to get over losing their eyesight and live without seeing their loved
ones or other things ever again. The last thing they want is to learn a new

skill that they may find just too difficult.

After obtaining my iPhone, I attended a users group where are the people
taught each other to use iOS devices. While at the group one day, one of the

group leaders brought a focus 40 refreshable braille display for everyone to

examine. I was the only blind person in the room interested in touching the

device because I knew braille and I owned a previous generation of that
device. It was not discussed, but I knew that they were not interested
because most of them had lost their eyesight later in life. I suspect that
they found it much easier to listen to audio than reading braille. Plus,
most of them had learned how to access information using their iPhones. I’m

sure they found it much easier to whip out their iPhones and listen to their

books, podcasts, scan documents and do everything else we can do with our
iPhones. I realize that not everyone owns a smart phone because they have
not found a way to obtain one. I also realize that not everyone is into
these types of gadgets. However, many blind people have discovered how great

these gadgets are and how useful they can be in helping them become more
independent. For many of us, that is the route we have chosen.

In any case, don’t be too surprised if you meet a blind person who is not
interested in learning braille. Don’t be too hard on those people. Maybe
they just prefer to do what is easier.

I am so glad that refreshable braille displays exist now. I am also glad
that low cost refreshable braille displays are being developed. I definitely

don’t miss the days of carrying bulky braille books to and from my classes.

I do not miss the days of trying to look up words in the dictionary and
dealing with a whole bookshelf of braille books. No thank you! I do not miss

my five volume braille New Testament.

If I did not already on a refreshable braille display, I would definitely
look into obtaining the orbit braille reader or the braille me.


Anyhow, these are just my rambling opinions.

Victor Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 5, 2020, at 7:40 PM, brian <bsackrider55@gmail.com> wrote:

 Thanks Grumpy Dave for your explination. I would be willing to pay a

few dollars to get braille. I am not saying that I should get for free but

not to have the option is my complaint. My local liberary use to provide

braille for 10 cents per page. I was also told that if I provided the
paper they would braille what I wanted. They required 67 weight paper
which I can get at Staples. All to often we are forced to except only
audio as the only format that is available. Braille will always be my
prefered format because I prefer to read for myself instead of just
listen. You say that you hate braille but you can use it well I feel the

same about audio. Why do we have to be locked in to just one format? How

many people would rather read than listen? Blind or sighted. People who

prefer to read than should be commended instead of being kind of bashed
for it. If not many blind people request braille than it should be no
trouble to provide it. Braille is not that dificult to produce once you
have the equipment. my liberary had no trouble all they needed was files

in microsoft word and the paper and they were good to go. I use to get my

weekly meterials for my church all in grade 2 braille. It was really great

to finally be an active participant in the service instead just a pasive
listener. To be able to read along with everyone else the verses and hyms

and classes lessons is a great feeling you just can't discribe the
independence that it givesyou. It's kind of like having access to dvs you

can finally know what is going on when there is all of that dead air. I
was able to read infront of the church and be active in bible study and
even lead the groop all using braille. I do use braille menus when ever
possible even if I don't really need it just to let them see that somone
is acually using it. Braille has given me a very full life and I don't
know whear my life would be with out braille. I feel that every blind
person who is able to read braille should learn it. I do understand that

there are blind people who have medical conditions that prevents them from

being able to read braille. For them they have no choice but to use audio

but I do have the choice I just don't like being limited to just audio
only and not braille. You hate braille and I hate audio. a good example

of when I wish that I had braille instead of a file was when I requested
my local newspaper to be accessable. my lions club purchassed a sara
reading machine for me there was no braille manual but there was a print
manual. I had to go to the help file on the machine and try to find what

I wanted. When I called the paper office they asked what files my machine

could read. If I had a braille manual I could have just looked it up
while on the phone and gave them the answer. I had to call back after I
went to the help file and found it. This is very time concuming I can
look up somthing much faster in braille than any other format. I am not
saying that I can do it as quick as a sighted person can with print but
for me it's the fastest way for me to get the job done. When I was a kid

I attended the Michigan school the blind in Lansing and we had to learn
braille and all of our books were in braille. There was no I don't want
to learn it you had to. I will say that I can certainly listen much
faster than I can read but when it comes to looking up somthing braille is

faster hands down. I have been blind since birth and thats all I ever
knew was braille. It's like the sighted grew up with print. I wanted to

learn the opticon at the rehab center but they would not let me because
they said that I was not fast enough. I felt that I was learning and
making progress and I should had the right to continue but they said no.
If somone really wants to learn a new skil then they should beallowed to
do so. If I am determind to learn somthing that then I will even though
it might take more time then the teacher would like. I guess that
modavation means nothing. If somone reallly wants to learn braille so
what ifit takes several month to do so they should not be told no you
can't continue. If companies had the equipment to produce braille they
could charge me for the cost of the paper to get braille manuals or
catalogs.

On 3/5/2020 9:26 PM, Dave wrote:
Hello Brian,


I have nothing against Braille other than the hassle it is to create it,
such as a Manual in Braille.


I've been blind for a long time now, and there were many times when I
would have Kissed the Feet of anyone who gave me a manual in Audio
format. many times have I had to just Wing it, learning by Guess and by
Golly. Once Computers became a Tool for the Blind, Guessing was not
always the best thing to do, as guessing wrong could ruin your day in a
Big way. Still can.


but, Brian, I have no Beef with Braille. To produce it is just not an
easy task. And I would guess that most manufacturers of items for the
blind, may not want to hire another Staff member to do nothing but print
out Manuals in Braille.


Yes, it all sounds good, until the costs of doing such a thing is
considered.


These days, I do expect a Manual at least in a PDF format, if not an
Audio file. And if I own my own Braille Printer, I can then print out
the PDF file.


Although, I can't afford one of those printers, so I do without.


However, I could run the Audio file through an Audio to Text converter,
and then print that file out in Braille.


When I get nothing but an On Line Manual, where I need to go On Line to
read the thing. I am Thankful for at least that much, but I always look
to see if I can just download the manual so I don't need to be going On
Line so much.


Call it my personal Taste.


I would think most who are Blind have learned over and over again to
look for Work Arounds for doing many things in Life.


You like Braille, and while I do use it, I Hate it. So a Braille Manual
would be a waste of resources to send me one.


You Love it, and can use it well. So, when the Company doesn't send a
manual in Braille, but has sent you one in PDF, or even Audio, if you
want a manual in Braille, the Work around is to convert that Audio or
PDF file into Braille. And if you are like me, and can't afford a
Braille Printer, there are Services that will take your Manual file and
make you a manual in Braille.


it may cost you a few dollars, which again is all part of the Life of
someone who is Blind. In the past, I have hired Readers to read Manuals
on Tape. Paid them $10 for every hour of Recorded material.


I've paid people to read my Mail. This was before smart Phones had
built in Cameras and OCR programs. I paid them $10 an hour too. this
was back in the 1980's and 90's.


I haven't had to hire anyone for about 20 years now


And Dare I bring up the Quality of Manuals? So often, regardless of
what Format it comes in, the information in the thing is totally Nuts!
It doesn't make Sense, and you can't tell if it is a Translation of
something in Chinese to English, or from Chinese to Spanish and then
Russian, and then to English etc.


And some manuals that come in English are so poorly written, lack
helpful information and seem to be missing a great deal of actual
instructional information and are next to useless in any format.


Grumpy Dave

On 3/6/20, Ron Canazzi <aa2vm@roadrunner.com> wrote:

Hi Laz,

I was wondering when someone running a business would reply to this
thread. I agree with your assessment of Free Matter For The Blind.
While it is a handy tool for written and recorded materials of low or
moderate price, I wouldn't want someone to send A Victor Reader Trek by
that method. Remember people, Free Matter for the blind is low priority
mail and is therefore subject to long delays and less care than even
standard mail. I am not sure, but I don't believe that free matter
deliveries are insurable; I could be wrong. If not, then any company
who sent a Trek via free matter would have its heart in its mouth hoping
that 2 or 3 weeks after the product was sent--that it got to its
destination in one piece.



On 3/5/2020 5:57 PM, Laz wrote:

I do operate my own business and would not use free matter for the
blind under any circumstances. Instead I use the USPS and pay for the
postage myself, except on international orders but I do subsidize the
international postage as well.

I had too many experiences before I started my business when I did use
free matter for the blind personally, of packages getting lost,
packages coming back postage due, etc, that I decided I would never
use it in my business.

In answer to someone else's comments in this thread about
blindbusinesses not caring about blind people or offering payment
plans, we do offer lay-away plans but only for orders totaling $200 or
more such as for a Victor Reader Stream, Victor Reader Trek, etc.

I am blind, am not rich by any stretch of the imagination, and I do care.

Laz

On 3/5/20, Dave Mitchel <dbmitchel@centurylink.net> wrote:

the government pays for free matter. that is not or does not include
things
you pay for as it is free matter.
if I am selling you or anyone else I cannot send that free matter as it
is
not free but has been paid for.

From: brian
Sent: Thursday, March 5, 2020 1:55 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

We should not do business with any company that will not mail out
products that do qualafy for free matter. Tell them that they don't then
we
will go else whear. If companies can't deal with the cost of doing
business
then they don't belong in business. It's bad enough when companies that
sell products for the blind refuse to provide us with accessable
meterials
such as manuals and catalogs. They all do this and neither Acb or Nfb
are
doing anything about this. They just don't care about real world
problems
of the blind they are a very big joke. They have always been and will
always will be. Companies that sell products for the blind are proving
that
they really don't care about the needs of the blind they just want our
money. They are taking advantage of and they should all be very ashamed
of
themselves. What a big scam? They just can't comprehend that the
majority
of theblind are either unimployed living on ssi or ssdi income that
barly
pays for your monthly living expensive. There is very little room for
expensive products in their budgets. Thats just reality but they will
never
comprehend that. How many companies that sell products for the blind
offer
any monthly payment plans? They want full payment and thats just not
possible. When I first applied to my local lions club for a reading
machine
they told me that it would take their whole anual budget just to pay for
it.
This prevents the blind from achieving the independence that the blind
truly want and they could care less. I am not saying that we should get
somthing for nothing but just work with us and charge a more reasonable
price for their products. Offer monthly payment plans and they will
sell
more products. They have no business sinse. There is a double standard
here. If we request braille we are told that the cost is to high and
only
10 percent of blind people read braille anyway. On the other hand they
ignore the 70-80 unimployment rate of the blind and expect us to pay
money
that we don't have. They are very selish and very inconciterate of our
needs the very people they claim to be in business for. I know that
nothing
will probably ever change unless the blind community as a whole demand
change. I doubt that will ever happen you just can't getthe blind to
unite
on any issue. Just some food for thought for what's werth.

Brian Sackrider


On 3/5/2020 4:04 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote:

If I operated a business, I probably would not send stuff out free
matter.
Did you have an agreement that they would send it out free matter? Did
you
get anything in writing saying this?

On Thu, Mar 5, 2020 at 1:01 PM heather albright <kd5cbl@gmail.com>
wrote:

No it was not a restocking fee. They charged me for something that
could
have been sent free matter. So if one orders something from them, be
prepared! That is all I am going to say on the subject! Heather



From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, March 5, 2020 2:58 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business



I don't know if your message is a valid warning. Are users told in
some
sort of straightforward way that returning something will involve a
restocking fee? I purchase very little and I have returned nothing.
What
is customary for those companies that specialize in dealing with blind
purchasers? Do they generally charge a restocking fee for returns? How
much? Is this company within what is customary now?



Aside from that, since all sorts of merchants charge restocking
fees
now, is the charge within what is reasonable for merchants in general?
Shipping isn't the question. Restocking fees aren't based on shipping
costs. they are a cost imposed for restocking a returned item.



Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: heather albright

Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2020 2:50 PM

To: TechTalk@groups.io

Subject: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business



Hello, I just want to worn anyone who does business that, this
company
does not return all your money even with items that could be shipped
free
matter for the blind. So LoganTech.

Proxtalker, be warned and go else where! Heather







--

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