Date   

locked Re: Talking about quoting threads in the blindness community

Laz
 

Hi Monte,

You have a similar experience to mine. In all the lists I've ever been
on only one which is a technical list with mostly firmware developers
on it, recommends bottom posting; they however don't make a big deal
about it if an individual top posts. On that list I always bottom
post.

At times if I'm asked several questions in an email message I will let
the person know that my answers can be found below their questions
marked with an asterisk in order to make it easier for myself and for
them to easily find the answers they sought.

When it comes to lists with mainly blind people on them i've only seen
a total of about 3 individuals who insist on bottom posting and refus
to consider any other way of replying to messages. Of course as stated
by some on this very list, those messages may just end up being
ignored. (shrugs)

Stay well,

Laz

On 8/27/20, Monte Single <mrsingle@sasktel.net> wrote:
Hi Laz

Thanks for your post.
Apart from the many list I am subscribed to, I used email at work for
almost thirty years. I worked for a school board with 2500 employees. Top
posting was the standard email formaqt.
I estimate I have processed about 10 million emails since I started using
computers. Top posting is the standard I find on all lists I have used.
Brian get the prize for being the 1 outstannding bottom poster.

Thanks,

Monte



-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Laz
Sent: August 27, 2020 9:05 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Talking about quoting threads in the blindness
community

Hmm. I post a message so that people have a fuller understanding of where
you're coming from and you point out how invalid my message is.

It's not an obsession to top post;it's what we as blind people find easier
for us. And please explain to us why the majority of blind people on every
list you join need to adopt your way of doing things instead of you adapting
to the way things are done on a blind mailing list?

You have to walk the walk of being blind before you actually understand what
it's like; it's not something you jusdt pick up from talking with some blind
people, reading books, watching movies andTV shows, etc. It doesn't just rub
off of them and onto yourself. It's an experience that until you go through
it yourself you can't claim to understand what it's like to be blind.

Please attempt to be civil in your replies and messages.

Laz

On 8/27/20, Brian Vogel <britechguy@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 10:24 AM, Laz wrote:


it should be noted that Brian is fully sighted and does things as a
sighted person does
-
Indeed I am and do. I've never made a secret of the fact I'm fully
sighted.

That doesn't make any of the rest of your message have the slightest
bit of validity. I've been working with blind individuals for many,
many years now, and am acutely aware of "how things work." But the
fact is that "how things work" in any community often need to be changed,
at least somewhat.

The obsession with only top-posting, and never including any reference
material before starting one's own content, is one of those things. I
hear, and frequently, "We/I want to be treated just like anyone else."
Well, I'm not going to back down on my earlier assertion that this
particular style of "quote response quote response" has been the norm
in most email I've dealt with since the 1980s when one cannot simply
presume that the reader will know exactly who and/or what is being replied
to at the outset. It's long
past time that the complaints about this cease, period. It's done, it's
done commonly, you (any you) need to know how to deal with it. And
most sighted people would not bother with including a hyphen, as I do,
because they'd have no reason to believe it is necessary.

I do conform myself to the customs of any community in which I
participate when possible and when those customs do not interfere with
effective communication. If I had not left the tiny bit of context at
the outset to which I was replying, this message would have been much
less clear. It's that simply, so I'm not going to even try to please
those that want me to write in a manner I know to be less clear, not more
so.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

*Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they
rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and
on.*

~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com




--
Affordably priced Accessible Talking MP3 Player/book Reader, Victor Reader
Stream & Trek, blindshell Classic phone, Bluetooth devices, and accessories
http://www.talkingmp3players.com/
Email: laz@talkingmp3players.com
Phone: 727-498-0121
Personal Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/laz.mesa
Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/Talkingmp3players?_rdr






--
Affordably priced Accessible Talking MP3 Player/book Reader, Victor
Reader Stream & Trek, blindshell Classic phone, Bluetooth devices, and
accessories
http://www.talkingmp3players.com/
Email: laz@talkingmp3players.com
Phone: 727-498-0121
Personal Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/laz.mesa
Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/Talkingmp3players?_rdr


Re: respecting leaving computers on, or not

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

Geoff,

          I don't think that most of us think of LEDs as "light bulbs" in the conventional sense, and you're 100% correct on the difference between them and incandescents, which is what was being referred to at the time that quotation was written.  True LED bulbs are a very recent thing as far as consumer lighting in traditional screw-in bulb form goes.

           Until and unless computers are all using SSDs, the biggest stress on HDDs is generally at boot time.  So computers do tend to "pop" when turned off and on far more often than when in continuous use.  Unfortunately, I still see that all the time.   Almost all of my service calls for dead machines are secondary to either power supply failure or HDD failure that comes when the owner tries to power up their machine.  There's no way of knowing whether the failure occurred during the previous power down, or the actual power up, but it's one of the two.

            The issue of power savings is a thing of its own, and does deserve consideration.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.

        ~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com


locked Re: Talking about quoting threads in the blindness community

Monte Single
 

Ooops,
That is 1 million, not 10.
Please forgive my clutter.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Monte Single
Sent: August 27, 2020 9:51 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Talking about quoting threads in the blindness community

Hi Laz

Thanks for your post.
Apart from the many list I am subscribed to, I used email at work for almost thirty years. I worked for a school board with 2500 employees. Top posting was the standard email formaqt.
I estimate I have processed about 10 million emails since I started using computers. Top posting is the standard I find on all lists I have used.
Brian get the prize for being the 1 outstannding bottom poster.

Thanks,

Monte



-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Laz
Sent: August 27, 2020 9:05 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Talking about quoting threads in the blindness community

Hmm. I post a message so that people have a fuller understanding of where you're coming from and you point out how invalid my message is.

It's not an obsession to top post;it's what we as blind people find easier for us. And please explain to us why the majority of blind people on every list you join need to adopt your way of doing things instead of you adapting to the way things are done on a blind mailing list?

You have to walk the walk of being blind before you actually understand what it's like; it's not something you jusdt pick up from talking with some blind people, reading books, watching movies andTV shows, etc. It doesn't just rub off of them and onto yourself. It's an experience that until you go through it yourself you can't claim to understand what it's like to be blind.

Please attempt to be civil in your replies and messages.

Laz

On 8/27/20, Brian Vogel <britechguy@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 10:24 AM, Laz wrote:


it should be noted that Brian is fully sighted and does things as a
sighted person does
-
Indeed I am and do. I've never made a secret of the fact I'm fully
sighted.

That doesn't make any of the rest of your message have the slightest
bit of validity. I've been working with blind individuals for many,
many years now, and am acutely aware of "how things work." But the
fact is that "how things work" in any community often need to be changed, at least somewhat.

The obsession with only top-posting, and never including any reference
material before starting one's own content, is one of those things. I
hear, and frequently, "We/I want to be treated just like anyone else."
Well, I'm not going to back down on my earlier assertion that this
particular style of "quote response quote response" has been the norm
in most email I've dealt with since the 1980s when one cannot simply
presume that the reader will know exactly who and/or what is being replied to at the outset. It's long
past time that the complaints about this cease, period. It's done, it's
done commonly, you (any you) need to know how to deal with it. And
most sighted people would not bother with including a hyphen, as I do,
because they'd have no reason to believe it is necessary.

I do conform myself to the customs of any community in which I
participate when possible and when those customs do not interfere with
effective communication. If I had not left the tiny bit of context at
the outset to which I was replying, this message would have been much
less clear. It's that simply, so I'm not going to even try to please
those that want me to write in a manner I know to be less clear, not more so.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

*Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they
rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and
on.*

~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com




--
Affordably priced Accessible Talking MP3 Player/book Reader, Victor Reader Stream & Trek, blindshell Classic phone, Bluetooth devices, and accessories http://www.talkingmp3players.com/
Email: laz@talkingmp3players.com
Phone: 727-498-0121
Personal Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/laz.mesa
Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/Talkingmp3players?_rdr


respecting leaving computers on, or not

Geoff Eden
 

Please excuse my incorrect title.
 
"Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on."
 
Not entirely true. LEDs can be turned off and on millions of times per second with little fear of failure. Whereas, the filament of an incandescent bulb goes from room to temperature to 4500° in a split second. As with most materials, the light bulb filament will eventually deteriorate from temperature fatigue, and the frontal spike of switched on current can separate it.
 
Computers go from room temperature to approximately 80° see fairly gradually. Hence, temperature fatigue does not apply here. Furthermore, switching power supplies in modern computers utilize far less capacitance than the AC filter bridge networks applied in power supplies of yesteryear. Hence, frontal spikes are not of the same amplitude, resulting in a much lower risk of failure at startup. Hence, everyone needs to think of the power that's wasted by an idling computer that could better be used elsewhere.
 
Geoff
 

From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2020 11:04 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Repeated message about filling out survey for census Bureau
 
Regardless of "the where" the general advice remains the same:   Look at the link, and by that I mean the click-through text AND what the actual link for said text is.

If you've participated in the US Census and supplied them with your cell number as part of that, it could very well be legitimate.  If the link indicates www.census.gov at the beginning it is almost certainly legitimate.

But, if you want to exercise the maximum caution, even if the link appears to be legitimate, don't activate it as presented.  Go to your web browser and hand-type the link in, and see if that takes you where you'd expect it to.

In this case, if it starts with census.gov I have little reason to believe it's fake, but it's not impossible.

But the basic principle with suspect links is you never activate them directly.  
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.

        ~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com


Free version of Roboform?

Sharon Hooley
 

Hi,


I was looking at the table comparing Roboform Free with Roboform Everywhere.  I would really prefer Free, but almost all of the free column was blank.  That makes me wonder why I can stay with that?  I'm not trying to express negativity toward Roboform, and I know that everywhere makes logging in with unlimited devices seamless and time-saving, and I wouldn't mind making a single purchase, but subscription is an on-going payment, which I don't like, as money doesn't grow on trees.  So, just what do I get with the free account?


Thanks,


locked Re: Talking about quoting threads in the blindness community

Dave
 

So I need to be Blind before I could ever understand what it is like to
be blind?


This is just not true.  I hear black people say this same sort of thing
when they are talking with someone they disagree with.


You could never understand what it's like to be Black, a woman, an
Indian, a Short person, an extremely tall person, a Bald person what
ever unless you are one of those people. Silly thinking in my opinion.


I am not a Great Cook.  but, I can tell when a Cooked Meal is a Bad Meal.


Someone who has been around others, who happen to be blind ought to have
learned a few things about what someone blind has to do differently to
accomplish the same tasks as a sighted person.



I for one, find the statement that a person doesn't understand another
because they themselves are not like that other person, to be very wrong.


Some are better than others at putting themselves into the Shoes of
another person, so not all people may be able to understand the life of
someone blind, but there are those who can, and do all the time.



Grumpy Dave

On 8/27/2020 8:04 AM, Laz wrote:
Hmm. I post a message so that people have a fuller understanding of
where you're coming from and you point out how invalid my message is.

It's not an obsession to top post;it's what we as blind people find
easier for us. And please explain to us why the majority of blind
people on every list you join need to adopt your way of doing things
instead of you adapting to the way things are done on a blind mailing
list?

You have to walk the walk of being blind before you actually
understand what it's like; it's not something you jusdt pick up from
talking with some blind people, reading books, watching movies andTV
shows, etc. It doesn't just rub off of them and onto yourself. It's an
experience that until you go through it yourself you can't claim to
understand what it's like to be blind.

Please attempt to be civil in your replies and messages.

Laz

On 8/27/20, Brian Vogel <britechguy@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 10:24 AM, Laz wrote:

it should be noted that Brian is fully sighted and does things as a
sighted person does
-
Indeed I am and do. I've never made a secret of the fact I'm fully
sighted.

That doesn't make any of the rest of your message have the slightest bit of
validity. I've been working with blind individuals for many, many years
now, and am acutely aware of "how things work." But the fact is that "how
things work" in any community often need to be changed, at least somewhat.

The obsession with only top-posting, and never including any reference
material before starting one's own content, is one of those things. I hear,
and frequently, "We/I want to be treated just like anyone else." Well, I'm
not going to back down on my earlier assertion that this particular style of
"quote response quote response" has been the norm in most email I've dealt
with since the 1980s when one cannot simply presume that the reader will
know exactly who and/or what is being replied to at the outset. It's long
past time that the complaints about this cease, period. It's done, it's
done commonly, you (any you) need to know how to deal with it. And most
sighted people would not bother with including a hyphen, as I do, because
they'd have no reason to believe it is necessary.

I do conform myself to the customs of any community in which I participate
when possible and when those customs do not interfere with effective
communication. If I had not left the tiny bit of context at the outset to
which I was replying, this message would have been much less clear. It's
that simply, so I'm not going to even try to please those that want me to
write in a manner I know to be less clear, not more so.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

*Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely
fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.*

~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com




locked Re: Talking about quoting threads in the blindness community

Laz
 

Great message! Actually some people send totally disrelated messages
byjust changing thesubject line instead of just sending a new message
to a list. Sometimes they remove any traces of the original message,
sometimes they don't. This is not the normal way of sending a new
message to a list however. To send a new message to a list one sends a
new message to the list email address.

Changing a subject line may not remove it from the message thread it
is part of as if one were to send an entirely new message. I don't
know this for a fact but I believe there's something in the message
headers that keeps it associated with the original subject in the
message thread.

Stay well,

Laz

On 8/27/20, Howard Traxler <htraxler7@gmail.com> wrote:
Just a simple question: When replying to a message, changing the
subject line; seems like some list owners call this "high jacking"? They
tell us to start a new message thread. Maybe I'm thinking of something
entirely different, huh?

Howard

On 8/27/2020 12:37 AM, Gene wrote:
No, Carlos never strictly enforced that rule. I remember a message
where he said it would be a good thing if people change subject lines
if the discussion changes in a thread but that it is so common that
this isn't done that he wouldn't stricgtlhy enforce it. He even said
that he is guilty of not changing subject lines himself.

I believe he would change a subject line off and on. he may have
reminded list members that it would be a good thing if they did but as
I said, he never made much of an issue about it.
Gene
-----Original Message----- From: joseph hudson
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2020 12:10 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Talking about quoting threads in the blindness
community

Hi Brian, I'm fully aware of the functionality of groups.io. That's
not the point. I was interested in the discussion at hand. And I know
one of Carlos's rules was to keep subject lines on topic especially
whenever I came to the tech talk group.
joseph hudson

Email FaceTime and iMessage
jhud7789@twc.com


Office phone/what's up messenger

254-300-7667

Emergency sell

254-813-2461

https://www.facebook.com/joseph.hudson.9404

https://twitter.com/josephhudson89

On Aug 26, 2020, at 11:58 PM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@gmail.com> wrote:

Let's not forget that at the bottom of each and every message that
arrives from Groups.io, whether individual messages or in digests, is
the Mute this topic link. If a topic is no longer of interest, which
can happen, that's what it's there for.

Anyone can also set up topic preview for any Groups.io group, if
they're willing to log in to their Groups.io account to do so.
Controlling the Messages You Receive via E-Mail from Groups.io
(docx). This can be very, very handy on high-traffic groups where
it's a select few topics that you really have an interest in.

Those using any service owe it to themselves to become familiar with
the features offered, and Groups.io gives individual users a far
greater degree of control than many.

--
Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041
Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they
rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.
~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com








--
Affordably priced Accessible Talking MP3 Player/book Reader, Victor
Reader Stream & Trek, blindshell Classic phone, Bluetooth devices, and
accessories
http://www.talkingmp3players.com/
Email: laz@talkingmp3players.com
Phone: 727-498-0121
Personal Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/laz.mesa
Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/Talkingmp3players?_rdr


Re: Oddity with TechTalk message format - Reported to Group Owner

Gene
 

I see your point. The NVDA links aren't written out as links. Whatever the technical term is, they have text labels.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2020 10:54 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Oddity with TechTalk message format - Reported to Group Owner

Gene,

I've also checked NVDA messages, and the Reply to Sender link is indeed there in those that are coming to me. The way I can tell whether something is in HTML format versus plain text is the way in which those links that are part of the "standard group" are presented.

For example, in one of the messages from TechTalk, this is how the two "standard group" links that are appearing are shown:
----
Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group.

View/Reply Online (#92328): https://TechTalk.groups.io/g/main/message/92328
Mute This Topic: https://groups.io/mt/76438939/24134
-----

Note that view/reply and mute etc are standalone labels that precede the links themselves. That tells me instantly that the message was sent out in plain text format, as click-through text cannot be used in that case.

Contrast that with what is at the bottom of the NVDA group messages:
------
Groups.io Links:

You receive all messages sent to this group.

View/Reply Online (#76748) | Reply To Group | Reply To Sender | Mute This Topic | New Topic

------

The entirety of the "standard cluster" is present and none are in label-link format, but are presented as with click-through text for their respective functions. You never see the raw link in the message body itself when HTML format is being used.

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.

~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com


Re: Repeated message about filling out survey for census Bureau

Geoff Eden
 

"Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on."
 
Not entirely true. LEDs can be turned off and on millions of times per second with little fear of failure. Whereas, the filament of an incandescent bulb goes from room to temperature to 4500° in a split second. As with most materials, the light bulb filament will eventually deteriorate from temperature fatigue, and the frontal spike of switched on current can separate it.
 
Computers go from room temperature to approximately 80° see fairly gradually. Hence, temperature fatigue does not apply here. Furthermore, switching power supplies in modern computers utilize far less capacitance than the AC filter bridge networks applied in power supplies of yesteryear. Hence, frontal spikes are not of the same amplitude, resulting in a much lower risk of failure at startup. Hence, everyone needs to think of the power that's wasted by an idling computer that could better be used elsewhere.
 
Geoff
 
 

From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2020 11:04 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Repeated message about filling out survey for census Bureau
 
Regardless of "the where" the general advice remains the same:   Look at the link, and by that I mean the click-through text AND what the actual link for said text is.

If you've participated in the US Census and supplied them with your cell number as part of that, it could very well be legitimate.  If the link indicates www.census.gov at the beginning it is almost certainly legitimate.

But, if you want to exercise the maximum caution, even if the link appears to be legitimate, don't activate it as presented.  Go to your web browser and hand-type the link in, and see if that takes you where you'd expect it to.

In this case, if it starts with census.gov I have little reason to believe it's fake, but it's not impossible.

But the basic principle with suspect links is you never activate them directly.  
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.

        ~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com


Re: Question: How to Reply To the Original Sender Of a Groups.io Message Using Outlook 365

Gene
 

This doesn't work in all programs. I just tried it in Windows Live Mail and the group address appeared in the to line. I also tried it in thunderbird and the sender's address appeared in the to line.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Norman
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2020 10:35 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Question: How to Reply To the Original Sender Of a Groups.io Message Using Outlook 365



There are various ways to do this depending on the email program and screen reader used. In general i don't think pointing out the screen reader specific method is a good idea because as soon as you do someone else will want to know how to do something that uses a different screen reader.

For all desktop email programs, outlook, thunderbird, ETC. right clicking on the message gives you the option in the menu.




HTH.




On 8/27/2020 9:30 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 07:49 AM, David Goldfield wrote:
Someone asked me how to reply to the original sender of a Groups.io message-
By activating the "Reply to Sender" mailto link at the bottom of any given message. It's purpose for being is to allow you to start an "off-list/off-group" conversation with whoever wrote the message, without involving anyone else in the group.

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.

~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com


Re: Oddity with TechTalk message format - Reported to Group Owner

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

Gene,

             I've also checked NVDA messages, and the Reply to Sender link is indeed there in those that are coming to me.   The way I can tell whether something is in HTML format versus plain text is the way in which those links that are part of the "standard group" are presented.

             For example, in one of the messages from TechTalk, this is how the two "standard group" links that are appearing are shown:
----
Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group.

View/Reply Online (#92328): https://TechTalk.groups.io/g/main/message/92328
Mute This Topic: https://groups.io/mt/76438939/24134
-----

Note that  view/reply and mute etc are standalone labels that precede the links themselves.  That tells me instantly that the message was sent out in plain text format, as click-through text cannot be used in that case.

Contrast that with what is at the bottom of the NVDA group messages:
------
Groups.io Links:

You receive all messages sent to this group.

View/Reply Online (#76748) | Reply To Group | Reply To Sender | Mute This Topic | New Topic

------

The entirety of the "standard cluster" is present and none are in label-link format, but are presented as with click-through text for their respective functions.  You never see the raw link in the message body itself when HTML format is being used.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.

        ~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com


locked Re: Talking about quoting threads in the blindness community

Monte Single
 

Hi Laz

Thanks for your post.
Apart from the many list I am subscribed to, I used email at work for almost thirty years. I worked for a school board with 2500 employees. Top posting was the standard email formaqt.
I estimate I have processed about 10 million emails since I started using computers. Top posting is the standard I find on all lists I have used.
Brian get the prize for being the 1 outstannding bottom poster.

Thanks,

Monte

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Laz
Sent: August 27, 2020 9:05 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Talking about quoting threads in the blindness community

Hmm. I post a message so that people have a fuller understanding of where you're coming from and you point out how invalid my message is.

It's not an obsession to top post;it's what we as blind people find easier for us. And please explain to us why the majority of blind people on every list you join need to adopt your way of doing things instead of you adapting to the way things are done on a blind mailing list?

You have to walk the walk of being blind before you actually understand what it's like; it's not something you jusdt pick up from talking with some blind people, reading books, watching movies andTV shows, etc. It doesn't just rub off of them and onto yourself. It's an experience that until you go through it yourself you can't claim to understand what it's like to be blind.

Please attempt to be civil in your replies and messages.

Laz

On 8/27/20, Brian Vogel <britechguy@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 10:24 AM, Laz wrote:


it should be noted that Brian is fully sighted and does things as a
sighted person does
-
Indeed I am and do. I've never made a secret of the fact I'm fully
sighted.

That doesn't make any of the rest of your message have the slightest
bit of validity. I've been working with blind individuals for many,
many years now, and am acutely aware of "how things work." But the
fact is that "how things work" in any community often need to be changed, at least somewhat.

The obsession with only top-posting, and never including any reference
material before starting one's own content, is one of those things. I
hear, and frequently, "We/I want to be treated just like anyone else."
Well, I'm not going to back down on my earlier assertion that this
particular style of "quote response quote response" has been the norm
in most email I've dealt with since the 1980s when one cannot simply
presume that the reader will know exactly who and/or what is being replied to at the outset. It's long
past time that the complaints about this cease, period. It's done, it's
done commonly, you (any you) need to know how to deal with it. And
most sighted people would not bother with including a hyphen, as I do,
because they'd have no reason to believe it is necessary.

I do conform myself to the customs of any community in which I
participate when possible and when those customs do not interfere with
effective communication. If I had not left the tiny bit of context at
the outset to which I was replying, this message would have been much
less clear. It's that simply, so I'm not going to even try to please
those that want me to write in a manner I know to be less clear, not more so.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

*Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they
rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and
on.*

~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com




--
Affordably priced Accessible Talking MP3 Player/book Reader, Victor Reader Stream & Trek, blindshell Classic phone, Bluetooth devices, and accessories http://www.talkingmp3players.com/
Email: laz@talkingmp3players.com
Phone: 727-498-0121
Personal Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/laz.mesa
Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/Talkingmp3players?_rdr


locked Re: Talking about quoting threads in the blindness community

Howard Traxler
 

Just a simple question:  When replying to a message, changing the subject line; seems like some list owners call this "high jacking"? They tell us to start a new message thread.  Maybe I'm thinking of something entirely different, huh?

Howard

On 8/27/2020 12:37 AM, Gene wrote:
No, Carlos never strictly enforced that rule.  I remember a message where he said it would be a good thing if people change subject lines if the discussion changes in a thread but that it is so common that this isn't done that he wouldn't stricgtlhy enforce it.  He even said that he is guilty of not changing subject lines himself.

I believe he would change a subject line off and on.  he may have reminded list members that it would be a good thing if they did but as I said, he never made much of an issue about it.
Gene
-----Original Message----- From: joseph hudson
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2020 12:10 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Talking about quoting threads in the blindness community

Hi Brian, I'm fully aware of the functionality of groups.io. That's not the point. I was interested in the discussion at hand. And I know one of Carlos's rules was to keep subject lines on topic especially whenever I came to the tech talk group.
joseph hudson

Email FaceTime and iMessage
jhud7789@twc.com


Office phone/what's up messenger

254-300-7667

Emergency sell

254-813-2461

https://www.facebook.com/joseph.hudson.9404

https://twitter.com/josephhudson89

On Aug 26, 2020, at 11:58 PM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@gmail.com> wrote:

Let's not forget that at the bottom of each and every message that arrives from Groups.io, whether individual messages or in digests, is the Mute this topic link.  If a topic is no longer of interest, which can happen, that's what it's there for.

Anyone can also set up topic preview for any Groups.io group, if they're willing to log in to their Groups.io account to do so. Controlling the Messages You Receive via E-Mail from Groups.io (docx).  This can be very, very handy on high-traffic groups where it's a select few topics that you really have an interest in.

Those using any service owe it to themselves to become familiar with the features offered, and Groups.io gives individual users a far greater degree of control than many.

--
Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041
Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.
        ~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com





Re: Oddity with TechTalk message format - Reported to Group Owner

Gene
 

I just checked the Blindtech list and that list does have the reply to sender button. Its odd that some lists have it and some don't.

I'll ask support about it.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2020 10:46 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Oddity with TechTalk message format - Reported to Group Owner

I'm not sure what the problem is. I checcked a message from the NVDA list
and I found the same thing. there is no reply to member link. To me, going
through messages with a screen-reader, it appears to me as though they are
HTML messages and I'm curious how you know they are text. Is it the lack of
formatting or images?

I'll probably write to support about this but, since I've seen this on two
lists, I suspect it is a general problem.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2020 10:19 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: [TechTalk] Oddity with TechTalk message format - Reported to Group
Owner

I don't generally subscribe initially using the individual message option
because I use the web interface, but for each group I do generally turn this
on so that I receive at least a few messages to see exactly what they look
like.

The messages I've received from TechTalk are in plain text format, which is
not the default for Groups.io, and are also missing a number of the standard
footer links that should be there whether the format is plain text or HTML,
the most important of which given recent conversations is the "Reply to
Sender" link, which is entirely absent.

I've never seen this happen before, and I'll check to see if it is happening
on other groups by turning on individual message delivery for them for a
short while.

So you're not insane if you're not seeing the Reply to Sender link, because
it's not there, and I'm not insane thinking that it should be there, because
in every other case I've ever dealt with, it is.
--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely
fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.

~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com


Re: Oddity with TechTalk message format - Reported to Group Owner

Gene
 

I'm not sure what the problem is. I checcked a message from the NVDA list and I found the same thing. there is no reply to member link. To me, going through messages with a screen-reader, it appears to me as though they are HTML messages and I'm curious how you know they are text. Is it the lack of formatting or images?

I'll probably write to support about this but, since I've seen this on two lists, I suspect it is a general problem.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2020 10:19 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: [TechTalk] Oddity with TechTalk message format - Reported to Group Owner

I don't generally subscribe initially using the individual message option because I use the web interface, but for each group I do generally turn this on so that I receive at least a few messages to see exactly what they look like.

The messages I've received from TechTalk are in plain text format, which is not the default for Groups.io, and are also missing a number of the standard footer links that should be there whether the format is plain text or HTML, the most important of which given recent conversations is the "Reply to Sender" link, which is entirely absent.

I've never seen this happen before, and I'll check to see if it is happening on other groups by turning on individual message delivery for them for a short while.

So you're not insane if you're not seeing the Reply to Sender link, because it's not there, and I'm not insane thinking that it should be there, because in every other case I've ever dealt with, it is.
--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.

~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com


locked Re: Talking about quoting threads in the blindness community

Gene
 

the message quoted below mine may start a debate about equality, and other issues that may be divisive. I'll be watching the thread closely and I'll close the thread if it becomes too divisive. The chat list may be appropriate for such a discussion, which may start to range far beyond the province of this list.

I will say the following:
For those who are only on lists of almost exclusively blind users, they may feel no need to learn how to function efficiently on lists composed mostly of sighted users. That's fine. It is true that if a blind person wants to participate on a list of mostly sighted users, the thing to do is to learn how to function in that environment and culture. Different people have different cultures. What may be fine in blindness list culture might not be fine in sighted list culture. Both should be respected because both have developed to meet the convenience and needs of users who do things differently.

I think that screen-reader developers should make a point of developing commands that skip quoted material so a blind person can do what a sighted person does, that is, on a sighted list, skip quoted material and quickly and efficiently go to new content. So the problem is not only how blind people do things, it is what the technology we use allows us to do efficiently and what not.

In the speciffic case of people posting a line or two from a previous message above their reply, that isn't bottom posting and I see some people do this on various lists of primarily blind users.

As I said yesterday, it is important for blind people to think about context and look around. it is very easy to down arrow past this small amount of material, then use read to end.

It is an unfortunate aspect of a lot of computer training of blind people, but people often aren't taught to do this and think in those terms. They are taught to do things but not taught how to consider context and look around. this unnecessarily limits or causes problems for a lot of blind computer users.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2020 9:34 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Talking about quoting threads in the blindness community

On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 10:24 AM, Laz wrote:
it should be noted that Brian is fully sighted and does things as a sighted person does-
Indeed I am and do. I've never made a secret of the fact I'm fully sighted.

That doesn't make any of the rest of your message have the slightest bit of validity. I've been working with blind individuals for many, many years now, and am acutely aware of "how things work." But the fact is that "how things work" in any community often need to be changed, at least somewhat.

The obsession with only top-posting, and never including any reference material before starting one's own content, is one of those things. I hear, and frequently, "We/I want to be treated just like anyone else." Well, I'm not going to back down on my earlier assertion that this particular style of "quote response quote response" has been the norm in most email I've dealt with since the 1980s when one cannot simply presume that the reader will know exactly who and/or what is being replied to at the outset. It's long past time that the complaints about this cease, period. It's done, it's done commonly, you (any you) need to know how to deal with it. And most sighted people would not bother with including a hyphen, as I do, because they'd have no reason to believe it is necessary.

I do conform myself to the customs of any community in which I participate when possible and when those customs do not interfere with effective communication. If I had not left the tiny bit of context at the outset to which I was replying, this message would have been much less clear. It's that simply, so I'm not going to even try to please those that want me to write in a manner I know to be less clear, not more so.

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.

~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com


Re: Question: How to Reply To the Original Sender Of a Groups.io Message Using Outlook 365

Norman
 

There are various ways to do this depending on the email program and screen reader used. In general i don't think pointing out the screen reader specific method is a good idea because as soon as you do someone else will want to know how to do something that uses a different screen reader.

For all desktop email programs, outlook, thunderbird, ETC. right clicking on the message gives you the option in the menu.


HTH.


On 8/27/2020 9:30 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 07:49 AM, David Goldfield wrote:
Someone asked me how to reply to the original sender of a Groups.io message
-
By activating the "Reply to Sender" mailto link at the bottom of any given message.  It's purpose for being is to allow you to start an "off-list/off-group" conversation with whoever wrote the message, without involving anyone else in the group.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.

        ~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com


Oddity with TechTalk message format - Reported to Group Owner

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

I don't generally subscribe initially using the individual message option because I use the web interface, but for each group I do generally turn this on so that I receive at least a few messages to see exactly what they look like.

The messages I've received from TechTalk are in plain text format, which is not the default for Groups.io, and are also missing a number of the standard footer links that should be there whether the format is plain text or HTML, the most important of which given recent conversations is the "Reply to Sender" link, which is entirely absent.

I've never seen this happen before, and I'll check to see if it is happening on other groups by turning on individual message delivery for them for a short while.

So you're not insane if you're not seeing the Reply to Sender link, because it's not there, and I'm not insane thinking that it should be there, because in every other case I've ever dealt with, it is.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.

        ~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com


Re: Question: How to Reply To the Original Sender Of a Groups.io Message Using Outlook 365

Gene
 

I suspect that whether JAWS key shift r works depends on how the list is set up as to whether and where the sender's address is shown. The command doesn't work universally. I think it also only works with certain e-mail programs.

Different programs have different ways of allowing you to write to the individual member if the list serve doesn't have a reply to sender link.

While this isn't necessarily the most efficient way, one way that works on many e-mail programs is to open message properties. Not all programs call it properties. Thunderbird calls it source.
If the e-mail list makes the sender's address available, in the e-mail programs I've used, you will find the address in the properties. also, in the e-mail programs I've used, I can select and copy it to the clipboard and paste it into a new message.

If you don't know another way you like better for the program you are using, and there are more efficient ways to do this in many programs, my method is likely to work.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Carolyn Arnold
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2020 9:32 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Question: How to Reply To the Original Sender Of a Groups.io Message Using Outlook 365

Recently, I tried JAWS-Key+Shift+R, and it came right to the
list.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io
[mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io] On Behalf Of Olusegun --
Victory Associates LTD, Inc.
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2020 8:28 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Question: How to Reply To the
Original Sender Of a Groups.io Message Using Outlook 365

Mr. Goldfield asked:

"What's the most efficient method for sending an email to
just the sender?"

If using Jaws as a screen reader, Jaws-Key (AKA
INSERT)+Shift+r does the trick. It will PLACE THE SENDER'S
ADDRESS in the "TO" field automatically, and you can start
typing your text in the message body.

I don't know how this can be done using NVDA.

Hope this is a tad helpful?

Sincerely,
Olusegun
Denver, Colorado


locked Re: Talking about quoting threads in the blindness community

Laz
 

Hmm. I post a message so that people have a fuller understanding of
where you're coming from and you point out how invalid my message is.

It's not an obsession to top post;it's what we as blind people find
easier for us. And please explain to us why the majority of blind
people on every list you join need to adopt your way of doing things
instead of you adapting to the way things are done on a blind mailing
list?

You have to walk the walk of being blind before you actually
understand what it's like; it's not something you jusdt pick up from
talking with some blind people, reading books, watching movies andTV
shows, etc. It doesn't just rub off of them and onto yourself. It's an
experience that until you go through it yourself you can't claim to
understand what it's like to be blind.

Please attempt to be civil in your replies and messages.

Laz

On 8/27/20, Brian Vogel <britechguy@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 10:24 AM, Laz wrote:


it should be noted that Brian is fully sighted and does things as a
sighted person does
-
Indeed I am and do. I've never made a secret of the fact I'm fully
sighted.

That doesn't make any of the rest of your message have the slightest bit of
validity. I've been working with blind individuals for many, many years
now, and am acutely aware of "how things work." But the fact is that "how
things work" in any community often need to be changed, at least somewhat.

The obsession with only top-posting, and never including any reference
material before starting one's own content, is one of those things. I hear,
and frequently, "We/I want to be treated just like anyone else." Well, I'm
not going to back down on my earlier assertion that this particular style of
"quote response quote response" has been the norm in most email I've dealt
with since the 1980s when one cannot simply presume that the reader will
know exactly who and/or what is being replied to at the outset. It's long
past time that the complaints about this cease, period. It's done, it's
done commonly, you (any you) need to know how to deal with it. And most
sighted people would not bother with including a hyphen, as I do, because
they'd have no reason to believe it is necessary.

I do conform myself to the customs of any community in which I participate
when possible and when those customs do not interfere with effective
communication. If I had not left the tiny bit of context at the outset to
which I was replying, this message would have been much less clear. It's
that simply, so I'm not going to even try to please those that want me to
write in a manner I know to be less clear, not more so.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

*Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely
fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.*

~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com



--
Affordably priced Accessible Talking MP3 Player/book Reader, Victor
Reader Stream & Trek, blindshell Classic phone, Bluetooth devices, and
accessories
http://www.talkingmp3players.com/
Email: laz@talkingmp3players.com
Phone: 727-498-0121
Personal Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/laz.mesa
Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/Talkingmp3players?_rdr

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