Date   

Re: NVDA & vocalizer voices

Josh Kennedy
 

first the place you bought the vocalizer voices from is called code factory. You can also buy them from ww.atguys.com. 
next, the windows 10 voices can be found under the synthesizer dialogue in NVDA press the change synthesizer button. Go to the synthesizer combo box, down arrow to one core voices, and press enter.


Re: 5g and me

Gene
 

But most people don't ever have to unzip enormous files and Windows has all sorts of ways of reducing the boot time problem to insignificance. You can use sleep, I don't know what is available in Windows 10, to be able to shut down the computer, but keep the entire contents of the hard drive in memory, then when you resume operation, you are ready to work again qauickly. I'm talking about something like six secconds, maybe if you have a lot of programs opened, maybe ten or twelve seconds, I don't know if the number of programs opened matters. My point is that the boot pfroblem can very easily be reduced to insignificance with ways Windows provides.

Windows 10 has fast boot. This allows for booting quickly even with a mechanical drive. It isn't a full boot because information is kept in memory. And if you use fast boot, you should still use restart from time to time because, just as when you let your computer run too long without booting, you will have performance problems, so to with fast boot which is not a full boot. You can experiment and see how long it takes for performance problems to begin on your machine and it may depend on how you use your machine. Let's say you have to do a reboot every four or five days. You can do it and go off to brush your teeth or have breakfast or something so boot time doesn't matter.

In short, as I said earlier, if someone ddoes many things that use the hard drive a lot that's one thing. The majority of users don't do things where mechanical drives slow things down to an extent that matters and for many activities, the slow down is insignificant.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Norman
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 8:07 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

I will disagree with your points on a solid state drive. To me it is
manditory, and i have the exact opposite reaction to yours. If an extra
$50 gets me an ssd i'll do it every time.

For word docs like you gave in your example, it's not an issue. Where it
really shines is when booting your machine, unzipping files, copying
data around, etc.

Being able to unzip a 2 GB file in under 5 minutes is really nice if the
particular task you're working on requires you wait for the file to unzip.


JMT.


On 10/16/2020 8:07 AM, Gene wrote:
The article proves my point about future proofing. It says here and there that this has been a problem but that things are changing, such as regarding battery life. Also, a battery that lasts six hours for me would be more than enough time, the day long battery capacity that is rare now among less expensive laptops wouldn't matter to me and I don't think to a lot of other people either. Display issues are irrelevant to blind users so that eliminates one source of objection.

Also, the article says something like that a solid state drive should be considered mandatory. By whom and for whom does it matter? This is arbitrary and not well supported. I think it is just plain wrong as a generalization.

Consider the following:
When I first open a program in my very reasonably fast nine year old laptop, with of course a mechanical drive, it may take perhaps three to five seconds to open the first time. Then, because of caching, when I open it again during that session, it tends to open in perhaps one or two seconds. Does having a solid state drive and having programs open in perhaps half a second really matter?

If you do a lot of things that you would benefit from, such as some sort of work that requires a lot of hard drive activity, that's one thing. For surfing, working with a word processor, e-mail, Zooming, in short, the things most people will use a computer for, an SSD doesn't matter enough to worry about.

I strongly contend that authors who make such claims suffer from the gee whiz speed compulsion of our age. If someone is going to spend half an hour working on a word processor document, does it matter if it takes five seconds to open the program? If five seconds matters in a twenty minute work session, then the person had better not take any short breaks, yawn, stretch, walk around for a minut or two to relax and loosen his/her joints, in short, the person would be a nervous wreck. So why are a few seconds considered so vital when it comes to computer use for the majority of people. I don't know the differences in cost between getting a machine with a solid state or a mechanical drive. If I can get the same machine that I want or a similar one and save fifty dollars, if that tends to be what I'll save, I'll save the fifty dollars and have a word processor open in five seconds instead of one the first time I open it during a session.

Music doesn't take less time to listen to, the player may open more quickly, an article on the Internet can't be read any faster, I don't know if the page opens faster, though I doubt it does to any meaningful extent, and so forth.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 6:11 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

Hi Gene,

I am not an ordinary user. When I purchase a computer, I will not settle
for anything less than the best. This system, while still able to run
browsers and regular websites ok, struggles and crashes freezes when
running large websites. The difference in processor technology reached
a critically dramatic point when I thhought replacing this was a good
option. Every component on my new machine should at least provide a 100%
improvement or more, even ram speeds, 1600 vs 3200.

Flaws on laptops on that price range are usually intolerable. A cheap
case will not cool properly, and will bend or warp easily. For example,
my laptop's plastic yields under the DVD drive. Cooling isn't fixable
with a cooling pad. Unfortunately with the focus on portability cooling
is taking a back seat with laptops. If fans are too small for the
thermals, or if vents are too small, that throttles down the processor.
For sighted people, the screens of such machines are terrible in
quality. And a USB keyboard adds unneeded bulk to laptops. Look at a
list of best laptops on any sight, and you won't see any machines in
your price range that make those lists. Here is an article which
describes why it makes sense to pay for a better laptop.

https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/dont-be-so-cheap-five-reasons-you-should-spend-more-on-your-next-laptop/


On 10/16/2020 5:53 AM, Gene wrote:
Few ports won't matter with hubs available and many people may well not need more than the ports offered. Keyboards, I don't know how serious a problem that is. My lapptop, I don't know if it is in the minority, as a very nice keyboard with large keys and a nice feel. While a keyboard that is more difficult or unpleasant to use than it should be would be an annoyance, at least when used at home, and laptops these days often replace desktops, its easy enough to use a USB keyboard. If this is a problem with many laptops, it is hardly a major flaw and hardly rises to the level justifying spending hundreds of dollars more to solve unless you use the laptop portably some or much of the time and you can't find a portable keyboard that satisfies your needs. Cooling? If you are talking about laptops, the person can use a cooling pad. Not a serious problem at all.

I don't know what problems you are referring to by material design. I'll look at the page, but the objections you have discussed don't justify spending more on a machine unless you want to use the laptop while away from home and a solution to a flaw makes its use unreasonably inconvenient, something I think won't happen with most of the flaws you have discussed. Then, too, people who live anywhere near a computer store or Walmart or Best Buy or other such stores can inspect computers in person. And there are always user reviews and reviews in computer magazines such as the best laptops for 2020 and other reviews such as the best laptops for 2020 costing under this or that amount of money. And there are lists like this, good places to ask what machines people are using and for evaluations or to ask about a specific machine or machines you are interested in.

In short, you can pick the flaw that either won't matter to you or will be easy to work around, given how you use the computer or you can try to find one without such flaws and I would think some computers without them perhaps many, if you look, can be found.

While your objection is interesting because it leads to a discussion of the ways to find a good computer, it doesn't justify spending more money for the majority of users.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 3:10 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

Hi Gene,

Systems in that price range today have major flaws, iether few ports,
cooling, keyboard, mouse, material design. You can view notebookcheck
and similar technology sites, and read reviews for systems in different
price brackets, and all of those systems will have their flaws
mentioned. Whether these flaws matter though depends on the flaw or person.

On 10/15/2020 9:04 PM, Gene wrote:
And so are laptops. Your information is wrong. I bought a laptop about nine years ago, and certainly you would get more power for the same price now, for about 480 dollars. It has worked very well. It is not compromised. It doesn't have defects.

And no one said a 500 dollar computer is good for everyone. I'm not talking about gamers or power users. I'm talking about the majority of Internet users who stream, surf, use a word processor, record audio, and do other tasks that are not particularly demanding.


Gene
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 8:44 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

Just because you may consider a system adequate for your own needs
doesn't mean it is for is for everyone. A system like that would have
major compremises. For clerification, I am talking about laptop prices,
desktops in that price range may in fact be midrange. What I am saying
is a minimum system for anyone should have a 6 core or so CPU, 8 gb or
16 gb of dual channel ram, an I5processor etc.

On 10/15/2020 7:08 PM, Monte Single wrote:
Hi list,
: enes sarıbaş thinks a 500 dollar computer/laptop is less than adequate for the average user.
He is not the first person on the list to express such thoughts.
The one time I spent more than that for a computer was for the first one I purchased; that was in the last millennium.
If I spent 500 u s dollars on a computer today, it would be built with quality parts and be more than adequate for the average computer user's needs.
: enes sarıbaş go forth and conquer, spend the big bucks.
Hopefully it will stimulate the economy.



-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: October 15, 2020 5:29 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

That simply is not true. A lot of people have machines in the five hundred dollar range and they work fine.

And five hundred dollar machines aren't just barely competent machines.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 4:14 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

No, I would not buy a 500 dollar machine. In fact, I would exclude machines below a certain build quality as a matter of principle. Is saving every little penny really worth it for a device people use 12 hours a day or more? possibly? Those machines usually have more than one major flaw, and have barebone specs. I think a power user should get a pc above the 1000 dollar range, and a regular user, if they can aford it should go around 700-800. The difference between an entry level, and even midrange computer is very apparent in build quality, as well as components. A midrange system will probably have one or two important flaws, but a budget system will have three or more, iether bad keyboard, cheap material, poor cooling, etc.

On 10/15/2020 7:15 AM, Gene wrote:
And I suspect you spent over a thousand dollars to do what a five
hundred dollar computer can do, less if on sale ormanufacturer
refurbished. I don't know enough technically to discuss some of your
technical points, but I'll say the following:
The advice I see from computer advisors is that for the majority of
people, purchasing a machine somewhere in the five hundred dollar
range will meet their needs. And even if memory requirements have
gone up for some programs, they haven't gone up nearly enough that
more than 8GB of ram is recommended for the majority of users. That
is the recommendation and it has been for years.

A little money here, a little money there, a more powerful processor,
and pretty soon, you are spending five hundred dollars or more than
you need to and gambling that your machine will last far longer than
the generally agreed on length for reliable service, five years. I
think it is a very bad gamble, not because the machine won't last
longer, it may well do so, but you are spending a lot more money now
for performance parameters that will be much less expensive when you
replace the computer. And the typical user, buying a machine around
the five hundred dollar range today, unless their uses change
radically, won't have problems that will require a new machine probably for the life of the current one.

And what about technological changes itself? If you bought a machine
in the Windows 7 days that was future proofed, in your opinion at that
time, it might not run Windows 10 now. My understanding is, and if
I'm wrong, I'm sure I will be corrected, that a lot of Windows 7
machines won't run Windows 10 because Microsoft now requires that
different processors be used.

While I don't think that sort of thing will happen if one buys a
machine now for use seven or ten years into the future and are
attempting to future proof it, you are again gambling that newer
technologies wohn't come along that will render your computer less
useable, no matter how you future proof it now.

Gene.
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 6:27 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

This isn't correct. Browsers, and other day to day applications even,
dramatically have increased ram usage, as well as CPU power. For
example, Zoom will only let you blur the background of video if you
have a quad core processor. If you buy a dual core as opposed to a
quad core processor for example, it will struggle at even the most
basic of tasks, and in 5 years, or even in a few years, programas even
screen readers will begin to lag. This happened with my core I5 4200M.
I thought a dual core was ok, though this was a system gifted to me.
Had I been choosing my own system then, I would've gone for an I7, and
now, this dual core is not even good enough for browsing. Large
websites will freeze it and even when I had it, intensive apps like
finereader will lag significantly independant of ram. This is exactly
I future proofed my next laptop, with a 1tb SSD, 32 gb of ram, and an
r7 4800H processor from AMD, with a 4.2 GHZ boost across all cores.
This should be powerful enough to run anything conceivable in the next
5 or so years, except maybe AI workloads.
On 10/15/2020 6:07 AM, Gene wrote:
I've seen others, and I believe you, too, make the future proof
argument for buying a more powerful computer than the person's
anticipated needs because it will be useful longer because you never
know when your needs will change. I've always thought such arguments
were not good ones. For one thing, a lot of people will continue to
use computers in about the same ways as now and if they do use them
in more demanding ways, those will not likely tax the computer if
they buy a computer that isn't just barely powerful enough to do what they want.

Also, technology continues to become more powerful and cost less. So,
in five years, the projected reliable life of a computer, you will be
able to buy one to meet your needs then for less money than you are
paying now. In addition, though it’s a gamble, many computers last
more than five years, many significantly more. Every dollar you
overspend to be future proofed that you didn't need because your
needs didn't change and all the extra power of your computer remains
unused is increasingly wasted, the longer your computer lasts.

It makes much more sense to buy a computer that is powerful enough to
meet your current needs well if you don't anticipate major changes in
how you will use your computer and are reasonably confident that you
won't do things in future that will exceed the ability of the computer.

Spending one-thousand dollars to future proof a machine, just in
case, maybe you use your machine much differently in the future, when
you could spend five hundred dollars today and three hundred dollars
in fived or seven or eight years for another machine that you would
probably use in similar ways as you do now or not much, is a bad idea.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2020 9:27 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me



Hi Brian,

Just for clerification, I have confirmed 5g signals do exist in my
area for my network. Even without the massive bandwidth, the lower
latency itself will probably result in better quality improvements.
Also, all versions of the IPhone by default include 5g.


On 10/14/2020 9:18 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 10:11 PM, enes sarıbaş wrote:
One reason, future proofing, I want to get the highest end version of
the IPhone 12, though 5g isn't very wiedespread now, it will be in
three years or so.- I am at a loss as to how doing this, now, squares
with your own earlier assertion, "I think 5g is more significant for
fixed wireless than smartphones."

Going to a 5G device now, when it is obscenely expensive, and where
the ability to exploit 5G is limited to a very few locations, seems
to me to be a supreme waste.

And 3 years is an eternity in the world of technology, and
smartphones in particular, and what's Apple's flagship now, will be
mid-range in 3 years, and much cheaper.

Going to a 5G smartphone now, unless you live in a major metropolitan
area, is locking your money up in a frozen asset you cannot even use
for its intended purpose.







































Re: 5g and me

Norman
 

I will disagree with your points on a solid state drive. To me it is manditory, and i have the exact opposite reaction to yours. If an extra $50 gets me an ssd i'll do it every time.

For word docs like you gave in your example, it's not an issue. Where it really shines is when booting your machine, unzipping files, copying data around, etc.

Being able to unzip a 2 GB file in under 5 minutes is really nice if the particular task you're working on requires you wait for the file to unzip.


JMT.

On 10/16/2020 8:07 AM, Gene wrote:
The article proves my point about future proofing.  It says here and there that this has been a problem but that things are changing, such as regarding battery life.  Also, a battery that lasts six hours for me would be more than enough time, the day long battery capacity that is rare now among less expensive laptops wouldn't matter to me and I don't think to a lot of other people either.  Display issues are irrelevant to blind users so that eliminates one source of objection.

Also, the article says something like that a solid state drive should be considered mandatory.  By whom and for whom does it matter?  This is arbitrary and not well supported.  I think it is just plain wrong as a generalization.

Consider the following:
When I first open a program in my very reasonably fast nine year old laptop, with of course a mechanical drive, it may take perhaps three to five seconds to open the first time.  Then, because of caching, when I open it again during that session, it tends to open in perhaps one or two seconds.  Does having a solid state drive and having programs open in perhaps half a second really matter?

If you do a lot of things that you would benefit from, such as some sort of work that requires a lot of hard drive activity, that's one thing.  For surfing, working with a word processor, e-mail, Zooming, in short, the things most people will use a computer for, an SSD doesn't matter enough to worry about.

I strongly contend that authors who make such claims suffer from the gee whiz speed compulsion of our age.  If someone is going to spend half an hour working on a word processor document, does it matter if it takes five seconds to open the program?  If five seconds matters in a twenty minute work session, then the person had better not take any short breaks, yawn, stretch, walk around for a minut or two to relax and loosen his/her joints, in short, the person would be a nervous wreck.  So why are a few seconds considered so vital when it comes to computer use for the majority of people.  I don't know the differences in cost between getting a machine with a solid state or a mechanical drive.  If I can get the same machine that I want or a similar one and save fifty dollars, if that tends to be what I'll save, I'll save the fifty dollars and have a word processor open in five seconds instead of one the first time I open it during a session.

Music doesn't take less time to listen to, the player may open more quickly, an article on the Internet can't be read any faster, I don't know if the page opens faster, though I doubt it does to any meaningful extent, and so forth.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 6:11 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

Hi Gene,

I am not an ordinary user. When I purchase a computer, I will not settle
for anything less than the best. This system, while still able to run
browsers and regular websites ok, struggles and crashes freezes when
running large websites.  The difference in processor technology reached
a critically dramatic point when I thhought replacing this was a good
option. Every component on my new machine should at least provide a 100%
improvement or more, even ram speeds, 1600 vs 3200.

Flaws on laptops on that price range are usually intolerable. A cheap
case will not cool properly, and  will bend or warp easily. For example,
my laptop's plastic yields under the DVD drive. Cooling isn't fixable
with a cooling pad. Unfortunately with the focus on portability cooling
is taking a back seat with laptops. If fans are too small for the
thermals, or if vents are too small, that throttles down the processor.
For sighted people, the screens of such machines are terrible in
quality. And a USB keyboard adds unneeded bulk to laptops.  Look at a
list of best laptops on any sight, and you won't see any machines in
your price range that make those lists. Here is an article  which
describes why  it makes sense to pay for a better laptop.

https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/dont-be-so-cheap-five-reasons-you-should-spend-more-on-your-next-laptop/


On 10/16/2020 5:53 AM, Gene wrote:
Few ports won't matter with hubs available and many people may well not need more than the ports offered. Keyboards, I don't know how serious a problem that is.  My lapptop, I don't know if it is in the minority, as a very nice keyboard with large keys and a nice feel.  While a keyboard that is more difficult or unpleasant to use than it should be would be an annoyance, at least when used at home, and laptops these days often replace desktops, its easy enough to use a USB keyboard.  If this is a problem with many laptops, it is hardly a major flaw and hardly rises to the level justifying spending hundreds of dollars more to solve unless you use the laptop portably some or much of the time and you can't find a portable keyboard that satisfies your needs.  Cooling?  If you are talking about laptops, the person can use a cooling pad. Not a serious problem at all.

I don't know what problems you are referring to by material design.  I'll look at the page, but the objections you have discussed don't justify spending more on a machine unless you want to use the laptop while away from home and a solution to a flaw makes its use unreasonably inconvenient, something I think won't happen with most of the flaws you have discussed. Then, too, people who live anywhere near a computer store or Walmart or Best Buy or other such stores can inspect computers in person.  And there are always user reviews and reviews in computer magazines such as the best laptops for 2020 and other reviews such as the best laptops for 2020 costing under this or that amount of money. And there are lists like this, good places to ask what machines people are using and for evaluations or to ask about a specific machine or machines you are interested in.

In short, you can pick the flaw that either won't matter to you or will be easy to work around, given how you use the computer or you can try to find one without such flaws and I would think some computers without them perhaps many, if you look, can be found.

While your objection is interesting because it leads to a discussion of the ways to find a good computer, it doesn't justify spending more money for the majority of users.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 3:10 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

Hi Gene,

Systems in that price range today have major flaws, iether few ports,
cooling, keyboard, mouse, material design. You can view notebookcheck
and similar technology sites, and read reviews for systems in different
price brackets, and all of those systems will have their flaws
mentioned. Whether these flaws matter though depends on the flaw or person.

On 10/15/2020 9:04 PM, Gene wrote:
And so are laptops.  Your information is wrong.  I bought a laptop about nine years ago, and certainly you would get more power for the same price now, for about 480 dollars.  It has worked very well.  It is not compromised.  It doesn't have defects.

And no one said a 500 dollar computer is good for everyone. I'm not talking about gamers or power users.  I'm talking about the majority of Internet users who stream, surf, use a word processor, record audio, and do other tasks that are not particularly demanding.


Gene
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 8:44 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

Just because you may consider a system adequate for your own needs
doesn't mean it is for  is for everyone. A system like that would have
major compremises. For clerification, I am talking about laptop prices,
desktops in that price range may in fact be midrange. What I am saying
is a minimum system for anyone should have a 6 core or so CPU, 8 gb or
16 gb of dual channel ram, an I5processor etc.

On 10/15/2020 7:08 PM, Monte Single wrote:
Hi list,
: enes sarıbaş  thinks a 500 dollar computer/laptop is less than adequate for the average user.
He is not the first person on the list to express such thoughts.
The  one time I spent more than that for a computer was for the first one I purchased;  that was in the last millennium.
If I spent 500 u s dollars on a computer today,  it would be built with quality parts and be more than adequate for the average computer user's needs.
: enes sarıbaş   go forth and conquer, spend the big bucks.
Hopefully it will stimulate the economy.



-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: October 15, 2020 5:29 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

That simply is not true.  A lot of people have machines in the five hundred dollar range and they work fine.

And five hundred dollar machines aren't just barely competent machines.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 4:14 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

No, I would not buy a 500 dollar machine. In fact, I would exclude machines below a certain build quality as a matter of principle. Is saving every little penny really worth it for a device people use 12 hours a day or more? possibly? Those machines usually have more than one major flaw, and have barebone specs. I think a power user should get a pc above the 1000 dollar range, and a regular user, if they can aford it should go around 700-800. The difference between an entry level, and even midrange computer is very apparent in build quality, as well as components. A midrange system will probably have one or two important flaws, but a budget system will have three or more, iether bad keyboard, cheap material, poor cooling, etc.

On 10/15/2020 7:15 AM, Gene wrote:
And I suspect you spent over a thousand dollars to do what a five
hundred dollar computer can do, less if on sale ormanufacturer
refurbished.  I don't know enough technically to discuss some of your
technical points, but I'll say the following:
The advice I see from computer advisors is that for the majority of
people, purchasing a machine somewhere in the five hundred dollar
range will meet their needs.  And even if memory requirements have
gone up for some programs, they haven't gone up nearly enough that
more than 8GB of ram is recommended for the majority of users.  That
is the recommendation and it has been for years.

A little money here, a little money there, a more powerful processor,
and pretty soon, you are spending five hundred dollars or more than
you need to and gambling that your machine will last far longer than
the generally agreed on length for reliable service, five years.  I
think it is a very bad gamble, not because the machine won't last
longer, it may well do so, but you are spending a lot more money now
for performance parameters that will be much less expensive when you
replace the computer.  And the typical user, buying a machine around
the five hundred dollar range today, unless their uses change
radically, won't have problems that will require a new machine probably for the life of the current one.

And what about technological changes itself?  If you bought a machine
in the Windows 7 days that was future proofed, in your opinion at that
time, it might not run Windows 10 now.  My understanding is, and if
I'm wrong, I'm sure I will be corrected, that a lot of Windows 7
machines won't run Windows 10 because Microsoft now requires that
different processors be used.

While I don't think that sort of thing will happen if one buys a
machine now for use seven or ten years into the future and are
attempting to future proof it, you are again gambling that newer
technologies wohn't come along that will render your computer less
useable, no matter how you future proof it now.

Gene.
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 6:27 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

This isn't correct. Browsers, and other day to day applications even,
dramatically have increased ram usage, as well as CPU power. For
example, Zoom will only let you blur the background of video if you
have a quad core processor. If you buy a dual core as opposed to a
quad core processor for example, it will struggle at even the most
basic of tasks, and in 5 years, or even in a few years, programas even
screen readers will begin to lag. This happened with my core I5 4200M.
I thought a dual core was ok, though this was a system gifted to me.
Had I been choosing my own system then, I would've gone for an I7, and
now, this dual core is not even good enough for browsing. Large
websites will freeze it and even when I had it, intensive apps like
finereader will lag significantly independant of ram. This is exactly
I future proofed my next laptop, with a 1tb SSD, 32 gb of ram, and an
r7 4800H processor from AMD, with a 4.2 GHZ boost across all cores.
This should be powerful enough to run anything conceivable in the next
5 or so years, except maybe AI workloads.
On 10/15/2020 6:07 AM, Gene wrote:
I've seen others, and I believe you, too, make the future proof
argument for buying a more powerful computer than the person's
anticipated needs because it will be useful longer because you never
know when your needs will change. I've always thought such arguments
were not good ones. For one thing, a lot of people will continue to
use computers in about the same ways as now and if they do use them
in more demanding ways, those will not likely tax the computer if
they buy a computer that isn't just barely powerful enough to do what they want.

Also, technology continues to become more powerful and cost less. So,
in five years, the projected reliable life of a computer, you will be
able to buy one to meet your needs then for less money than you are
paying now. In addition, though it’s a gamble, many computers last
more than five years, many significantly more. Every dollar you
overspend to be future proofed that you didn't need because your
needs didn't change and all the extra power of your computer remains
unused is increasingly wasted, the longer your computer lasts.

It makes much more sense to buy a computer that is powerful enough to
meet your current needs well if you don't anticipate major changes in
how you will use your computer and are reasonably confident that you
won't do things in future that will exceed the ability of the computer.

Spending one-thousand dollars to future proof a machine, just in
case, maybe you use your machine much differently in the future, when
you could spend five hundred dollars today and three hundred dollars
in fived or seven or eight years for another machine that you would
probably use in similar ways as you do now or not much, is a bad idea.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2020 9:27 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me



Hi Brian,

Just for clerification, I have confirmed 5g signals do exist in my
area for my network. Even without the massive bandwidth, the lower
latency itself will probably result in better quality improvements.
Also, all versions of the IPhone by default include 5g.


On 10/14/2020 9:18 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 10:11 PM, enes sarıbaş wrote:
One reason, future proofing, I want to get the highest end version of
the IPhone 12, though 5g isn't very wiedespread now, it will be in
three years or so.- I am at a loss as to how doing this, now, squares
with your own earlier assertion, "I think 5g is more significant for
fixed wireless than smartphones."

Going to a 5G device now, when it is obscenely expensive, and where
the ability to exploit 5G is limited to a very few locations, seems
to me to be a supreme waste.

And 3 years is an eternity in the world of technology, and
smartphones in particular, and what's Apple's flagship now, will be
mid-range in 3 years, and much cheaper.

Going to a 5G smartphone now, unless you live in a major metropolitan
area, is locking your money up in a frozen asset you cannot even use
for its intended purpose.






































Re: 5g and me

Gene
 

The article proves my point about future proofing. It says here and there that this has been a problem but that things are changing, such as regarding battery life. Also, a battery that lasts six hours for me would be more than enough time, the day long battery capacity that is rare now among less expensive laptops wouldn't matter to me and I don't think to a lot of other people either. Display issues are irrelevant to blind users so that eliminates one source of objection.

Also, the article says something like that a solid state drive should be considered mandatory. By whom and for whom does it matter? This is arbitrary and not well supported. I think it is just plain wrong as a generalization.

Consider the following:
When I first open a program in my very reasonably fast nine year old laptop, with of course a mechanical drive, it may take perhaps three to five seconds to open the first time. Then, because of caching, when I open it again during that session, it tends to open in perhaps one or two seconds. Does having a solid state drive and having programs open in perhaps half a second really matter?

If you do a lot of things that you would benefit from, such as some sort of work that requires a lot of hard drive activity, that's one thing. For surfing, working with a word processor, e-mail, Zooming, in short, the things most people will use a computer for, an SSD doesn't matter enough to worry about.

I strongly contend that authors who make such claims suffer from the gee whiz speed compulsion of our age. If someone is going to spend half an hour working on a word processor document, does it matter if it takes five seconds to open the program? If five seconds matters in a twenty minute work session, then the person had better not take any short breaks, yawn, stretch, walk around for a minut or two to relax and loosen his/her joints, in short, the person would be a nervous wreck. So why are a few seconds considered so vital when it comes to computer use for the majority of people. I don't know the differences in cost between getting a machine with a solid state or a mechanical drive. If I can get the same machine that I want or a similar one and save fifty dollars, if that tends to be what I'll save, I'll save the fifty dollars and have a word processor open in five seconds instead of one the first time I open it during a session.

Music doesn't take less time to listen to, the player may open more quickly, an article on the Internet can't be read any faster, I don't know if the page opens faster, though I doubt it does to any meaningful extent, and so forth.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 6:11 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

Hi Gene,

I am not an ordinary user. When I purchase a computer, I will not settle
for anything less than the best. This system, while still able to run
browsers and regular websites ok, struggles and crashes freezes when
running large websites. The difference in processor technology reached
a critically dramatic point when I thhought replacing this was a good
option. Every component on my new machine should at least provide a 100%
improvement or more, even ram speeds, 1600 vs 3200.

Flaws on laptops on that price range are usually intolerable. A cheap
case will not cool properly, and will bend or warp easily. For example,
my laptop's plastic yields under the DVD drive. Cooling isn't fixable
with a cooling pad. Unfortunately with the focus on portability cooling
is taking a back seat with laptops. If fans are too small for the
thermals, or if vents are too small, that throttles down the processor.
For sighted people, the screens of such machines are terrible in
quality. And a USB keyboard adds unneeded bulk to laptops. Look at a
list of best laptops on any sight, and you won't see any machines in
your price range that make those lists. Here is an article which
describes why it makes sense to pay for a better laptop.

https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/dont-be-so-cheap-five-reasons-you-should-spend-more-on-your-next-laptop/


On 10/16/2020 5:53 AM, Gene wrote:
Few ports won't matter with hubs available and many people may well not need more than the ports offered. Keyboards, I don't know how serious a problem that is. My lapptop, I don't know if it is in the minority, as a very nice keyboard with large keys and a nice feel. While a keyboard that is more difficult or unpleasant to use than it should be would be an annoyance, at least when used at home, and laptops these days often replace desktops, its easy enough to use a USB keyboard. If this is a problem with many laptops, it is hardly a major flaw and hardly rises to the level justifying spending hundreds of dollars more to solve unless you use the laptop portably some or much of the time and you can't find a portable keyboard that satisfies your needs. Cooling? If you are talking about laptops, the person can use a cooling pad. Not a serious problem at all.

I don't know what problems you are referring to by material design. I'll look at the page, but the objections you have discussed don't justify spending more on a machine unless you want to use the laptop while away from home and a solution to a flaw makes its use unreasonably inconvenient, something I think won't happen with most of the flaws you have discussed. Then, too, people who live anywhere near a computer store or Walmart or Best Buy or other such stores can inspect computers in person. And there are always user reviews and reviews in computer magazines such as the best laptops for 2020 and other reviews such as the best laptops for 2020 costing under this or that amount of money. And there are lists like this, good places to ask what machines people are using and for evaluations or to ask about a specific machine or machines you are interested in.

In short, you can pick the flaw that either won't matter to you or will be easy to work around, given how you use the computer or you can try to find one without such flaws and I would think some computers without them perhaps many, if you look, can be found.

While your objection is interesting because it leads to a discussion of the ways to find a good computer, it doesn't justify spending more money for the majority of users.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 3:10 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

Hi Gene,

Systems in that price range today have major flaws, iether few ports,
cooling, keyboard, mouse, material design. You can view notebookcheck
and similar technology sites, and read reviews for systems in different
price brackets, and all of those systems will have their flaws
mentioned. Whether these flaws matter though depends on the flaw or person.

On 10/15/2020 9:04 PM, Gene wrote:
And so are laptops. Your information is wrong. I bought a laptop about nine years ago, and certainly you would get more power for the same price now, for about 480 dollars. It has worked very well. It is not compromised. It doesn't have defects.

And no one said a 500 dollar computer is good for everyone. I'm not talking about gamers or power users. I'm talking about the majority of Internet users who stream, surf, use a word processor, record audio, and do other tasks that are not particularly demanding.


Gene
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 8:44 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

Just because you may consider a system adequate for your own needs
doesn't mean it is for is for everyone. A system like that would have
major compremises. For clerification, I am talking about laptop prices,
desktops in that price range may in fact be midrange. What I am saying
is a minimum system for anyone should have a 6 core or so CPU, 8 gb or
16 gb of dual channel ram, an I5processor etc.

On 10/15/2020 7:08 PM, Monte Single wrote:
Hi list,
: enes sarıbaş thinks a 500 dollar computer/laptop is less than adequate for the average user.
He is not the first person on the list to express such thoughts.
The one time I spent more than that for a computer was for the first one I purchased; that was in the last millennium.
If I spent 500 u s dollars on a computer today, it would be built with quality parts and be more than adequate for the average computer user's needs.
: enes sarıbaş go forth and conquer, spend the big bucks.
Hopefully it will stimulate the economy.



-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: October 15, 2020 5:29 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

That simply is not true. A lot of people have machines in the five hundred dollar range and they work fine.

And five hundred dollar machines aren't just barely competent machines.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 4:14 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

No, I would not buy a 500 dollar machine. In fact, I would exclude machines below a certain build quality as a matter of principle. Is saving every little penny really worth it for a device people use 12 hours a day or more? possibly? Those machines usually have more than one major flaw, and have barebone specs. I think a power user should get a pc above the 1000 dollar range, and a regular user, if they can aford it should go around 700-800. The difference between an entry level, and even midrange computer is very apparent in build quality, as well as components. A midrange system will probably have one or two important flaws, but a budget system will have three or more, iether bad keyboard, cheap material, poor cooling, etc.

On 10/15/2020 7:15 AM, Gene wrote:
And I suspect you spent over a thousand dollars to do what a five
hundred dollar computer can do, less if on sale ormanufacturer
refurbished. I don't know enough technically to discuss some of your
technical points, but I'll say the following:
The advice I see from computer advisors is that for the majority of
people, purchasing a machine somewhere in the five hundred dollar
range will meet their needs. And even if memory requirements have
gone up for some programs, they haven't gone up nearly enough that
more than 8GB of ram is recommended for the majority of users. That
is the recommendation and it has been for years.

A little money here, a little money there, a more powerful processor,
and pretty soon, you are spending five hundred dollars or more than
you need to and gambling that your machine will last far longer than
the generally agreed on length for reliable service, five years. I
think it is a very bad gamble, not because the machine won't last
longer, it may well do so, but you are spending a lot more money now
for performance parameters that will be much less expensive when you
replace the computer. And the typical user, buying a machine around
the five hundred dollar range today, unless their uses change
radically, won't have problems that will require a new machine probably for the life of the current one.

And what about technological changes itself? If you bought a machine
in the Windows 7 days that was future proofed, in your opinion at that
time, it might not run Windows 10 now. My understanding is, and if
I'm wrong, I'm sure I will be corrected, that a lot of Windows 7
machines won't run Windows 10 because Microsoft now requires that
different processors be used.

While I don't think that sort of thing will happen if one buys a
machine now for use seven or ten years into the future and are
attempting to future proof it, you are again gambling that newer
technologies wohn't come along that will render your computer less
useable, no matter how you future proof it now.

Gene.
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 6:27 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

This isn't correct. Browsers, and other day to day applications even,
dramatically have increased ram usage, as well as CPU power. For
example, Zoom will only let you blur the background of video if you
have a quad core processor. If you buy a dual core as opposed to a
quad core processor for example, it will struggle at even the most
basic of tasks, and in 5 years, or even in a few years, programas even
screen readers will begin to lag. This happened with my core I5 4200M.
I thought a dual core was ok, though this was a system gifted to me.
Had I been choosing my own system then, I would've gone for an I7, and
now, this dual core is not even good enough for browsing. Large
websites will freeze it and even when I had it, intensive apps like
finereader will lag significantly independant of ram. This is exactly
I future proofed my next laptop, with a 1tb SSD, 32 gb of ram, and an
r7 4800H processor from AMD, with a 4.2 GHZ boost across all cores.
This should be powerful enough to run anything conceivable in the next
5 or so years, except maybe AI workloads.
On 10/15/2020 6:07 AM, Gene wrote:
I've seen others, and I believe you, too, make the future proof
argument for buying a more powerful computer than the person's
anticipated needs because it will be useful longer because you never
know when your needs will change. I've always thought such arguments
were not good ones. For one thing, a lot of people will continue to
use computers in about the same ways as now and if they do use them
in more demanding ways, those will not likely tax the computer if
they buy a computer that isn't just barely powerful enough to do what they want.

Also, technology continues to become more powerful and cost less. So,
in five years, the projected reliable life of a computer, you will be
able to buy one to meet your needs then for less money than you are
paying now. In addition, though it’s a gamble, many computers last
more than five years, many significantly more. Every dollar you
overspend to be future proofed that you didn't need because your
needs didn't change and all the extra power of your computer remains
unused is increasingly wasted, the longer your computer lasts.

It makes much more sense to buy a computer that is powerful enough to
meet your current needs well if you don't anticipate major changes in
how you will use your computer and are reasonably confident that you
won't do things in future that will exceed the ability of the computer.

Spending one-thousand dollars to future proof a machine, just in
case, maybe you use your machine much differently in the future, when
you could spend five hundred dollars today and three hundred dollars
in fived or seven or eight years for another machine that you would
probably use in similar ways as you do now or not much, is a bad idea.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2020 9:27 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me



Hi Brian,

Just for clerification, I have confirmed 5g signals do exist in my
area for my network. Even without the massive bandwidth, the lower
latency itself will probably result in better quality improvements.
Also, all versions of the IPhone by default include 5g.


On 10/14/2020 9:18 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 10:11 PM, enes sarıbaş wrote:
One reason, future proofing, I want to get the highest end version of
the IPhone 12, though 5g isn't very wiedespread now, it will be in
three years or so.- I am at a loss as to how doing this, now, squares
with your own earlier assertion, "I think 5g is more significant for
fixed wireless than smartphones."

Going to a 5G device now, when it is obscenely expensive, and where
the ability to exploit 5G is limited to a very few locations, seems
to me to be a supreme waste.

And 3 years is an eternity in the world of technology, and
smartphones in particular, and what's Apple's flagship now, will be
mid-range in 3 years, and much cheaper.

Going to a 5G smartphone now, unless you live in a major metropolitan
area, is locking your money up in a frozen asset you cannot even use
for its intended purpose.
































Re: Odd changes from m.facebook

james hooper
 

Can someone repost the link mentioned in this email?

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ann
Parsons
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 5:59 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Odd changes from m.facebook

Hi all,

David, this link for FaceBook works just great!

Ann P.

--
Ann K. Parsons
Portal Tutoring
EMAIL: akp@sero.email
Author of The Demmies: http://www.dldbooks.com/annparsons/
Portal Tutoring web site: http://www.portaltutoring.info
Skype: Putertutor

"All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost."







--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com


Re: 5g and me

Norman
 

This has been an interesting thread to watch. I think you're both right.

For the average american a $500 laptop is most likely good enough. however, then there is the tech crowd. Where you get laughed at for bringing a $500 laptop along. I'll just give my experience in this space for anyone who cares, you are allowed to disagree if you want.

Back in 2014 i would have been on Jene's side in this argument, there is no good reason to spend the $1000 on a laptop. At the time i had never done it and was fairly happy with what i had which were all machines under $600. I was even running virtual machines on laptops like this although the experience was admittedly not the best and i knew it. At the time i was doing tech support and starting out in systems admin work so i was on the computer for 50 hours or so a week. Then in early 2015 i needed to teach myself mac for work related reasons so after much grumping and growling i shelled out $1300 on a macbook pro 13 inch. This machine was in the middle of the macbook line on power at the time, it had a 256 GB ssd and 8 GB of memory. It didn't take me very long to come to 2 realizations after i had the machine.

1, the mac operating system and voice over are not for me. I can do what i need to with it but i despised and still do the voiceover navigation setup.

2, i love this hardware. It could run rings around my $500 desktop i was using at the time and my laptop wasn't even close.

My solution to this was bootcamp. I promptly installed windows on the thing and never looked back. Honestly the thing that impressed me the most was the battery life. Being able to go to business meetings and not having to plug in a charger for 8 hours was great!

This also completely changed my outlook on cheap laptops. While i might still buy a cheap machine for home use like reading books and emails and light web browsing i will not skimp on a work machine. It's simply not worth it.

So while jene is right about being able to buy decent to good $500 machines there is a fairly sizable group of people where machines like that just simply aren't good enough.



JMT.

On 10/16/2020 7:37 AM, Gene wrote:
Also, I didn't mean to imply that other reviewed products aren't worth considering or are inferior.  I mean that as an example of getting a satisfactory machine, the first review is one.  The other reviews are interesting and give many options for different machines.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Gene
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 6:35 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

Even though I said I would leave the under seven hundred dollar search to
the reader, I was curious so I did it.  See this article.  The first laptop
reviewed is about six hundred dollars and is well reviewed.  And the article
states limitations in the introduction, such limitations as you would
expect.  These aren't gaming or power computers, but you can find many
computers in this price range that the article says will be satisfactory for
a lot of people.
https://www.wired.com/gallery/best-cheap-laptops/

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Gene
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 6:24 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

I'll add that my guess of five hundred dollars for a laptop was a guess.  I
haven't priced computers for a long time.  I have just done a little looking
around and it may be that better or much better laptops can be had for
something like six or seven hundred dollars.  But you appear to be able to
get a machine that would meet a lot of users' needs for around six hundred
dollars, and then, such a machine would be on sale off and on, here and
there.  This review is an example.  How representative is it in the six
hundred dollar price range?  I haven't looked at other machines in that
price range but I suspect that between six and seven hundred dollars, there
are many machines that will do.

See the review of this laptop on this page:
Microsoft Surface Go 2
https://www.tomsguide.com/best-picks/best-laptops-under-500

I specified five hundred dollars in my Google search that showed this page
in the results.  I haven't done a search for something ;like best laptops
for six hundred dollars or best laptops under seven hundred dollars.  As the
text books may say at times, that is left as an exercise for the reader.


Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Gene
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 5:53 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

Few ports won't matter with hubs available and many people may well not need
more than the ports offered.  Keyboards, I don't know how serious a problem
that is.  My lapptop, I don't know if it is in the minority, as a very nice
keyboard with large keys and a nice feel.  While a keyboard that is more
difficult or unpleasant to use than it should be would be an annoyance, at
least when used at home, and laptops these days often replace desktops, its
easy enough to use a USB keyboard.  If this is a problem with many laptops,
it is hardly a major flaw and hardly rises to the level justifying spending
hundreds of dollars more to solve unless you use the laptop portably some or
much of the time and you can't find a portable keyboard that satisfies your
needs.  Cooling?  If you are talking about laptops, the person can use a
cooling pad.  Not a serious problem at all.

I don't know what problems you are referring to by material design.  I'll
look at the page, but the objections you have discussed don't justify
spending more on a machine unless you want to use the laptop while away from
home and a solution to a flaw makes its use unreasonably inconvenient,
something I think won't happen with most of the flaws you have discussed.
Then, too, people who live anywhere near a computer store or Walmart or Best
Buy or other such stores can inspect computers in person.  And there are
always user reviews and reviews in computer magazines such as the best
laptops for 2020 and other reviews such as the best laptops for 2020 costing
under this or that amount of money.  And there are lists like this, good
places to ask what machines people are using and for evaluations or to ask
about a specific machine or machines you are interested in.

In short, you can pick the flaw that either won't matter to you or will be
easy to work around, given how you use the computer or you can try to find
one without such flaws and I would think some computers without them perhaps
many, if you look, can be found.

While your objection is interesting because it leads to a discussion of the
ways to find a good computer, it doesn't justify spending more money for the
majority of users.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 3:10 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

Hi Gene,

Systems in that price range today have major flaws, iether few ports,
cooling, keyboard, mouse, material design. You can view notebookcheck
and similar technology sites, and read reviews for systems in different
price brackets, and all of those systems will have their flaws
mentioned. Whether these flaws matter though depends on the flaw or person.

On 10/15/2020 9:04 PM, Gene wrote:
And so are laptops.  Your information is wrong.  I bought a laptop about nine years ago, and certainly you would get more power for the same price now, for about 480 dollars.  It has worked very well.  It is not compromised.  It doesn't have defects.

And no one said a 500 dollar computer is good for everyone.  I'm not talking about gamers or power users.  I'm talking about the majority of Internet users who stream, surf, use a word processor, record audio, and do other tasks that are not particularly demanding.


Gene
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 8:44 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

Just because you may consider a system adequate for your own needs
doesn't mean it is for  is for everyone. A system like that would have
major compremises. For clerification, I am talking about laptop prices,
desktops in that price range may in fact be midrange. What I am saying
is a minimum system for anyone should have a 6 core or so CPU, 8 gb or
16 gb of dual channel ram, an I5processor etc.

On 10/15/2020 7:08 PM, Monte Single wrote:
Hi list,
: enes sarıbaş  thinks a 500 dollar computer/laptop is less than adequate for the average user.
He is not the first person on the list to express such thoughts.
The  one time I spent more than that for a computer was for the first one I purchased;  that was in the last millennium.
If I spent 500 u s dollars on a computer today,  it would be built with quality parts and be more than adequate for the average computer user's needs.
: enes sarıbaş   go forth and conquer, spend the big bucks.
Hopefully it will stimulate the economy.



-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: October 15, 2020 5:29 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

That simply is not true.  A lot of people have machines in the five hundred dollar range and they work fine.

And five hundred dollar machines aren't just barely competent machines.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 4:14 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

No, I would not buy a 500 dollar machine. In fact, I would exclude machines below a certain build quality as a matter of principle. Is saving every little penny really worth it for a device people use 12 hours a day or more? possibly? Those machines usually have more than one major flaw, and have barebone specs. I think a power user should get a pc above the 1000 dollar range, and a regular user, if they can aford it should go around 700-800. The difference between an entry level, and even midrange computer is very apparent in build quality, as well as components. A midrange system will probably have one or two important flaws, but a budget system will have three or more, iether bad keyboard, cheap material, poor cooling, etc.

On 10/15/2020 7:15 AM, Gene wrote:
And I suspect you spent over a thousand dollars to do what a five
hundred dollar computer can do, less if on sale ormanufacturer
refurbished.  I don't know enough technically to discuss some of your
technical points, but I'll say the following:
The advice I see from computer advisors is that for the majority of
people, purchasing a machine somewhere in the five hundred dollar
range will meet their needs.  And even if memory requirements have
gone up for some programs, they haven't gone up nearly enough that
more than 8GB of ram is recommended for the majority of users.  That
is the recommendation and it has been for years.

A little money here, a little money there, a more powerful processor,
and pretty soon, you are spending five hundred dollars or more than
you need to and gambling that your machine will last far longer than
the generally agreed on length for reliable service, five years.  I
think it is a very bad gamble, not because the machine won't last
longer, it may well do so, but you are spending a lot more money now
for performance parameters that will be much less expensive when you
replace the computer.  And the typical user, buying a machine around
the five hundred dollar range today, unless their uses change
radically, won't have problems that will require a new machine probably for the life of the current one.

And what about technological changes itself?  If you bought a machine
in the Windows 7 days that was future proofed, in your opinion at that
time, it might not run Windows 10 now.  My understanding is, and if
I'm wrong, I'm sure I will be corrected, that a lot of Windows 7
machines won't run Windows 10 because Microsoft now requires that
different processors be used.

While I don't think that sort of thing will happen if one buys a
machine now for use seven or ten years into the future and are
attempting to future proof it, you are again gambling that newer
technologies wohn't come along that will render your computer less
useable, no matter how you future proof it now.

Gene.
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 6:27 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

This isn't correct. Browsers, and other day to day applications even,
dramatically have increased ram usage, as well as CPU power. For
example, Zoom will only let you blur the background of video if you
have a quad core processor. If you buy a dual core as opposed to a
quad core processor for example, it will struggle at even the most
basic of tasks, and in 5 years, or even in a few years, programas even
screen readers will begin to lag. This happened with my core I5 4200M.
I thought a dual core was ok, though this was a system gifted to me.
Had I been choosing my own system then, I would've gone for an I7, and
now, this dual core is not even good enough for browsing. Large
websites will freeze it and even when I had it, intensive apps like
finereader will lag significantly independant of ram. This is exactly
I future proofed my next laptop, with a 1tb SSD, 32 gb of ram, and an
r7 4800H processor from AMD, with a 4.2 GHZ boost across all cores.
This should be powerful enough to run anything conceivable in the next
5 or so years, except maybe AI workloads.
On 10/15/2020 6:07 AM, Gene wrote:
I've seen others, and I believe you, too, make the future proof
argument for buying a more powerful computer than the person's
anticipated needs because it will be useful longer because you never
know when your needs will change. I've always thought such arguments
were not good ones. For one thing, a lot of people will continue to
use computers in about the same ways as now and if they do use them
in more demanding ways, those will not likely tax the computer if
they buy a computer that isn't just barely powerful enough to do what they want.

Also, technology continues to become more powerful and cost less. So,
in five years, the projected reliable life of a computer, you will be
able to buy one to meet your needs then for less money than you are
paying now. In addition, though it’s a gamble, many computers last
more than five years, many significantly more. Every dollar you
overspend to be future proofed that you didn't need because your
needs didn't change and all the extra power of your computer remains
unused is increasingly wasted, the longer your computer lasts.

It makes much more sense to buy a computer that is powerful enough to
meet your current needs well if you don't anticipate major changes in
how you will use your computer and are reasonably confident that you
won't do things in future that will exceed the ability of the computer.

Spending one-thousand dollars to future proof a machine, just in
case, maybe you use your machine much differently in the future, when
you could spend five hundred dollars today and three hundred dollars
in fived or seven or eight years for another machine that you would
probably use in similar ways as you do now or not much, is a bad idea.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2020 9:27 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me



Hi Brian,

Just for clerification, I have confirmed 5g signals do exist in my
area for my network. Even without the massive bandwidth, the lower
latency itself will probably result in better quality improvements.
Also, all versions of the IPhone by default include 5g.


On 10/14/2020 9:18 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 10:11 PM, enes sarıbaş wrote:
One reason, future proofing, I want to get the highest end version of
the IPhone 12, though 5g isn't very wiedespread now, it will be in
three years or so.- I am at a loss as to how doing this, now, squares
with your own earlier assertion, "I think 5g is more significant for
fixed wireless than smartphones."

Going to a 5G device now, when it is obscenely expensive, and where
the ability to exploit 5G is limited to a very few locations, seems
to me to be a supreme waste.

And 3 years is an eternity in the world of technology, and
smartphones in particular, and what's Apple's flagship now, will be
mid-range in 3 years, and much cheaper.

Going to a 5G smartphone now, unless you live in a major metropolitan
area, is locking your money up in a frozen asset you cannot even use
for its intended purpose.































Re: Odd changes from m.facebook

Ann Parsons
 

Hi all,

David, this link for FaceBook works just great!

Ann P.

--
Ann K. Parsons
Portal Tutoring
EMAIL: akp@sero.email
Author of The Demmies: http://www.dldbooks.com/annparsons/
Portal Tutoring web site: http://www.portaltutoring.info
Skype: Putertutor

"All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost."


Re: 5g and me

Gene
 

If you aren't an ordinary user and your comments may not apply to them that should be specified in your comments. Also, if these defects are so terrible, please explain the favorable reviews I found. I simply don't believe that chincy, fall apart, or severely defective products are generally produced. That's an excellent way to alienate a lot of users and get a bad reputation that may taint the whole line, including more expensive computers among users.

I can't comment on your individual experiences but at the same time, logic dicctates, as well as the large number of favorable reviews that can be found for machines in the six to seven hundred dollar range and the occasional chea[per machine, that your generalizations are incorrect.

Three or four hundred dollars is a lot of money for a lot of people and buying a thousand dollar or more machine for a lot of people is like buying a racing car when you will be doing mostly highway driving and neighborhood driving.

We'll see what other people have to say.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 6:11 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

Hi Gene,

I am not an ordinary user. When I purchase a computer, I will not settle
for anything less than the best. This system, while still able to run
browsers and regular websites ok, struggles and crashes freezes when
running large websites. The difference in processor technology reached
a critically dramatic point when I thhought replacing this was a good
option. Every component on my new machine should at least provide a 100%
improvement or more, even ram speeds, 1600 vs 3200.

Flaws on laptops on that price range are usually intolerable. A cheap
case will not cool properly, and will bend or warp easily. For example,
my laptop's plastic yields under the DVD drive. Cooling isn't fixable
with a cooling pad. Unfortunately with the focus on portability cooling
is taking a back seat with laptops. If fans are too small for the
thermals, or if vents are too small, that throttles down the processor.
For sighted people, the screens of such machines are terrible in
quality. And a USB keyboard adds unneeded bulk to laptops. Look at a
list of best laptops on any sight, and you won't see any machines in
your price range that make those lists. Here is an article which
describes why it makes sense to pay for a better laptop.

https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/dont-be-so-cheap-five-reasons-you-should-spend-more-on-your-next-laptop/


On 10/16/2020 5:53 AM, Gene wrote:
Few ports won't matter with hubs available and many people may well not need more than the ports offered. Keyboards, I don't know how serious a problem that is. My lapptop, I don't know if it is in the minority, as a very nice keyboard with large keys and a nice feel. While a keyboard that is more difficult or unpleasant to use than it should be would be an annoyance, at least when used at home, and laptops these days often replace desktops, its easy enough to use a USB keyboard. If this is a problem with many laptops, it is hardly a major flaw and hardly rises to the level justifying spending hundreds of dollars more to solve unless you use the laptop portably some or much of the time and you can't find a portable keyboard that satisfies your needs. Cooling? If you are talking about laptops, the person can use a cooling pad. Not a serious problem at all.

I don't know what problems you are referring to by material design. I'll look at the page, but the objections you have discussed don't justify spending more on a machine unless you want to use the laptop while away from home and a solution to a flaw makes its use unreasonably inconvenient, something I think won't happen with most of the flaws you have discussed. Then, too, people who live anywhere near a computer store or Walmart or Best Buy or other such stores can inspect computers in person. And there are always user reviews and reviews in computer magazines such as the best laptops for 2020 and other reviews such as the best laptops for 2020 costing under this or that amount of money. And there are lists like this, good places to ask what machines people are using and for evaluations or to ask about a specific machine or machines you are interested in.

In short, you can pick the flaw that either won't matter to you or will be easy to work around, given how you use the computer or you can try to find one without such flaws and I would think some computers without them perhaps many, if you look, can be found.

While your objection is interesting because it leads to a discussion of the ways to find a good computer, it doesn't justify spending more money for the majority of users.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 3:10 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

Hi Gene,

Systems in that price range today have major flaws, iether few ports,
cooling, keyboard, mouse, material design. You can view notebookcheck
and similar technology sites, and read reviews for systems in different
price brackets, and all of those systems will have their flaws
mentioned. Whether these flaws matter though depends on the flaw or person.

On 10/15/2020 9:04 PM, Gene wrote:
And so are laptops. Your information is wrong. I bought a laptop about nine years ago, and certainly you would get more power for the same price now, for about 480 dollars. It has worked very well. It is not compromised. It doesn't have defects.

And no one said a 500 dollar computer is good for everyone. I'm not talking about gamers or power users. I'm talking about the majority of Internet users who stream, surf, use a word processor, record audio, and do other tasks that are not particularly demanding.


Gene
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 8:44 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

Just because you may consider a system adequate for your own needs
doesn't mean it is for is for everyone. A system like that would have
major compremises. For clerification, I am talking about laptop prices,
desktops in that price range may in fact be midrange. What I am saying
is a minimum system for anyone should have a 6 core or so CPU, 8 gb or
16 gb of dual channel ram, an I5processor etc.

On 10/15/2020 7:08 PM, Monte Single wrote:
Hi list,
: enes sarıbaş thinks a 500 dollar computer/laptop is less than adequate for the average user.
He is not the first person on the list to express such thoughts.
The one time I spent more than that for a computer was for the first one I purchased; that was in the last millennium.
If I spent 500 u s dollars on a computer today, it would be built with quality parts and be more than adequate for the average computer user's needs.
: enes sarıbaş go forth and conquer, spend the big bucks.
Hopefully it will stimulate the economy.



-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: October 15, 2020 5:29 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

That simply is not true. A lot of people have machines in the five hundred dollar range and they work fine.

And five hundred dollar machines aren't just barely competent machines.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 4:14 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

No, I would not buy a 500 dollar machine. In fact, I would exclude machines below a certain build quality as a matter of principle. Is saving every little penny really worth it for a device people use 12 hours a day or more? possibly? Those machines usually have more than one major flaw, and have barebone specs. I think a power user should get a pc above the 1000 dollar range, and a regular user, if they can aford it should go around 700-800. The difference between an entry level, and even midrange computer is very apparent in build quality, as well as components. A midrange system will probably have one or two important flaws, but a budget system will have three or more, iether bad keyboard, cheap material, poor cooling, etc.

On 10/15/2020 7:15 AM, Gene wrote:
And I suspect you spent over a thousand dollars to do what a five
hundred dollar computer can do, less if on sale ormanufacturer
refurbished. I don't know enough technically to discuss some of your
technical points, but I'll say the following:
The advice I see from computer advisors is that for the majority of
people, purchasing a machine somewhere in the five hundred dollar
range will meet their needs. And even if memory requirements have
gone up for some programs, they haven't gone up nearly enough that
more than 8GB of ram is recommended for the majority of users. That
is the recommendation and it has been for years.

A little money here, a little money there, a more powerful processor,
and pretty soon, you are spending five hundred dollars or more than
you need to and gambling that your machine will last far longer than
the generally agreed on length for reliable service, five years. I
think it is a very bad gamble, not because the machine won't last
longer, it may well do so, but you are spending a lot more money now
for performance parameters that will be much less expensive when you
replace the computer. And the typical user, buying a machine around
the five hundred dollar range today, unless their uses change
radically, won't have problems that will require a new machine probably for the life of the current one.

And what about technological changes itself? If you bought a machine
in the Windows 7 days that was future proofed, in your opinion at that
time, it might not run Windows 10 now. My understanding is, and if
I'm wrong, I'm sure I will be corrected, that a lot of Windows 7
machines won't run Windows 10 because Microsoft now requires that
different processors be used.

While I don't think that sort of thing will happen if one buys a
machine now for use seven or ten years into the future and are
attempting to future proof it, you are again gambling that newer
technologies wohn't come along that will render your computer less
useable, no matter how you future proof it now.

Gene.
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 6:27 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

This isn't correct. Browsers, and other day to day applications even,
dramatically have increased ram usage, as well as CPU power. For
example, Zoom will only let you blur the background of video if you
have a quad core processor. If you buy a dual core as opposed to a
quad core processor for example, it will struggle at even the most
basic of tasks, and in 5 years, or even in a few years, programas even
screen readers will begin to lag. This happened with my core I5 4200M.
I thought a dual core was ok, though this was a system gifted to me.
Had I been choosing my own system then, I would've gone for an I7, and
now, this dual core is not even good enough for browsing. Large
websites will freeze it and even when I had it, intensive apps like
finereader will lag significantly independant of ram. This is exactly
I future proofed my next laptop, with a 1tb SSD, 32 gb of ram, and an
r7 4800H processor from AMD, with a 4.2 GHZ boost across all cores.
This should be powerful enough to run anything conceivable in the next
5 or so years, except maybe AI workloads.
On 10/15/2020 6:07 AM, Gene wrote:
I've seen others, and I believe you, too, make the future proof
argument for buying a more powerful computer than the person's
anticipated needs because it will be useful longer because you never
know when your needs will change. I've always thought such arguments
were not good ones. For one thing, a lot of people will continue to
use computers in about the same ways as now and if they do use them
in more demanding ways, those will not likely tax the computer if
they buy a computer that isn't just barely powerful enough to do what they want.

Also, technology continues to become more powerful and cost less. So,
in five years, the projected reliable life of a computer, you will be
able to buy one to meet your needs then for less money than you are
paying now. In addition, though it’s a gamble, many computers last
more than five years, many significantly more. Every dollar you
overspend to be future proofed that you didn't need because your
needs didn't change and all the extra power of your computer remains
unused is increasingly wasted, the longer your computer lasts.

It makes much more sense to buy a computer that is powerful enough to
meet your current needs well if you don't anticipate major changes in
how you will use your computer and are reasonably confident that you
won't do things in future that will exceed the ability of the computer.

Spending one-thousand dollars to future proof a machine, just in
case, maybe you use your machine much differently in the future, when
you could spend five hundred dollars today and three hundred dollars
in fived or seven or eight years for another machine that you would
probably use in similar ways as you do now or not much, is a bad idea.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2020 9:27 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me



Hi Brian,

Just for clerification, I have confirmed 5g signals do exist in my
area for my network. Even without the massive bandwidth, the lower
latency itself will probably result in better quality improvements.
Also, all versions of the IPhone by default include 5g.


On 10/14/2020 9:18 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 10:11 PM, enes sarıbaş wrote:
One reason, future proofing, I want to get the highest end version of
the IPhone 12, though 5g isn't very wiedespread now, it will be in
three years or so.- I am at a loss as to how doing this, now, squares
with your own earlier assertion, "I think 5g is more significant for
fixed wireless than smartphones."

Going to a 5G device now, when it is obscenely expensive, and where
the ability to exploit 5G is limited to a very few locations, seems
to me to be a supreme waste.

And 3 years is an eternity in the world of technology, and
smartphones in particular, and what's Apple's flagship now, will be
mid-range in 3 years, and much cheaper.

Going to a 5G smartphone now, unless you live in a major metropolitan
area, is locking your money up in a frozen asset you cannot even use
for its intended purpose.
































Re: 5g and me

Gene
 

Also, I didn't mean to imply that other reviewed products aren't worth considering or are inferior. I mean that as an example of getting a satisfactory machine, the first review is one. The other reviews are interesting and give many options for different machines.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Gene
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 6:35 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

Even though I said I would leave the under seven hundred dollar search to
the reader, I was curious so I did it. See this article. The first laptop
reviewed is about six hundred dollars and is well reviewed. And the article
states limitations in the introduction, such limitations as you would
expect. These aren't gaming or power computers, but you can find many
computers in this price range that the article says will be satisfactory for
a lot of people.
https://www.wired.com/gallery/best-cheap-laptops/

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Gene
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 6:24 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

I'll add that my guess of five hundred dollars for a laptop was a guess. I
haven't priced computers for a long time. I have just done a little looking
around and it may be that better or much better laptops can be had for
something like six or seven hundred dollars. But you appear to be able to
get a machine that would meet a lot of users' needs for around six hundred
dollars, and then, such a machine would be on sale off and on, here and
there. This review is an example. How representative is it in the six
hundred dollar price range? I haven't looked at other machines in that
price range but I suspect that between six and seven hundred dollars, there
are many machines that will do.

See the review of this laptop on this page:
Microsoft Surface Go 2
https://www.tomsguide.com/best-picks/best-laptops-under-500

I specified five hundred dollars in my Google search that showed this page
in the results. I haven't done a search for something ;like best laptops
for six hundred dollars or best laptops under seven hundred dollars. As the
text books may say at times, that is left as an exercise for the reader.


Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Gene
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 5:53 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

Few ports won't matter with hubs available and many people may well not need
more than the ports offered. Keyboards, I don't know how serious a problem
that is. My lapptop, I don't know if it is in the minority, as a very nice
keyboard with large keys and a nice feel. While a keyboard that is more
difficult or unpleasant to use than it should be would be an annoyance, at
least when used at home, and laptops these days often replace desktops, its
easy enough to use a USB keyboard. If this is a problem with many laptops,
it is hardly a major flaw and hardly rises to the level justifying spending
hundreds of dollars more to solve unless you use the laptop portably some or
much of the time and you can't find a portable keyboard that satisfies your
needs. Cooling? If you are talking about laptops, the person can use a
cooling pad. Not a serious problem at all.

I don't know what problems you are referring to by material design. I'll
look at the page, but the objections you have discussed don't justify
spending more on a machine unless you want to use the laptop while away from
home and a solution to a flaw makes its use unreasonably inconvenient,
something I think won't happen with most of the flaws you have discussed.
Then, too, people who live anywhere near a computer store or Walmart or Best
Buy or other such stores can inspect computers in person. And there are
always user reviews and reviews in computer magazines such as the best
laptops for 2020 and other reviews such as the best laptops for 2020 costing
under this or that amount of money. And there are lists like this, good
places to ask what machines people are using and for evaluations or to ask
about a specific machine or machines you are interested in.

In short, you can pick the flaw that either won't matter to you or will be
easy to work around, given how you use the computer or you can try to find
one without such flaws and I would think some computers without them perhaps
many, if you look, can be found.

While your objection is interesting because it leads to a discussion of the
ways to find a good computer, it doesn't justify spending more money for the
majority of users.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 3:10 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

Hi Gene,

Systems in that price range today have major flaws, iether few ports,
cooling, keyboard, mouse, material design. You can view notebookcheck
and similar technology sites, and read reviews for systems in different
price brackets, and all of those systems will have their flaws
mentioned. Whether these flaws matter though depends on the flaw or person.

On 10/15/2020 9:04 PM, Gene wrote:
And so are laptops. Your information is wrong. I bought a laptop about nine years ago, and certainly you would get more power for the same price now, for about 480 dollars. It has worked very well. It is not compromised. It doesn't have defects.

And no one said a 500 dollar computer is good for everyone. I'm not talking about gamers or power users. I'm talking about the majority of Internet users who stream, surf, use a word processor, record audio, and do other tasks that are not particularly demanding.


Gene
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 8:44 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

Just because you may consider a system adequate for your own needs
doesn't mean it is for is for everyone. A system like that would have
major compremises. For clerification, I am talking about laptop prices,
desktops in that price range may in fact be midrange. What I am saying
is a minimum system for anyone should have a 6 core or so CPU, 8 gb or
16 gb of dual channel ram, an I5processor etc.

On 10/15/2020 7:08 PM, Monte Single wrote:
Hi list,
: enes sarıbaş thinks a 500 dollar computer/laptop is less than adequate for the average user.
He is not the first person on the list to express such thoughts.
The one time I spent more than that for a computer was for the first one I purchased; that was in the last millennium.
If I spent 500 u s dollars on a computer today, it would be built with quality parts and be more than adequate for the average computer user's needs.
: enes sarıbaş go forth and conquer, spend the big bucks.
Hopefully it will stimulate the economy.



-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: October 15, 2020 5:29 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

That simply is not true. A lot of people have machines in the five hundred dollar range and they work fine.

And five hundred dollar machines aren't just barely competent machines.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 4:14 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

No, I would not buy a 500 dollar machine. In fact, I would exclude machines below a certain build quality as a matter of principle. Is saving every little penny really worth it for a device people use 12 hours a day or more? possibly? Those machines usually have more than one major flaw, and have barebone specs. I think a power user should get a pc above the 1000 dollar range, and a regular user, if they can aford it should go around 700-800. The difference between an entry level, and even midrange computer is very apparent in build quality, as well as components. A midrange system will probably have one or two important flaws, but a budget system will have three or more, iether bad keyboard, cheap material, poor cooling, etc.

On 10/15/2020 7:15 AM, Gene wrote:
And I suspect you spent over a thousand dollars to do what a five
hundred dollar computer can do, less if on sale ormanufacturer
refurbished. I don't know enough technically to discuss some of your
technical points, but I'll say the following:
The advice I see from computer advisors is that for the majority of
people, purchasing a machine somewhere in the five hundred dollar
range will meet their needs. And even if memory requirements have
gone up for some programs, they haven't gone up nearly enough that
more than 8GB of ram is recommended for the majority of users. That
is the recommendation and it has been for years.

A little money here, a little money there, a more powerful processor,
and pretty soon, you are spending five hundred dollars or more than
you need to and gambling that your machine will last far longer than
the generally agreed on length for reliable service, five years. I
think it is a very bad gamble, not because the machine won't last
longer, it may well do so, but you are spending a lot more money now
for performance parameters that will be much less expensive when you
replace the computer. And the typical user, buying a machine around
the five hundred dollar range today, unless their uses change
radically, won't have problems that will require a new machine probably for the life of the current one.

And what about technological changes itself? If you bought a machine
in the Windows 7 days that was future proofed, in your opinion at that
time, it might not run Windows 10 now. My understanding is, and if
I'm wrong, I'm sure I will be corrected, that a lot of Windows 7
machines won't run Windows 10 because Microsoft now requires that
different processors be used.

While I don't think that sort of thing will happen if one buys a
machine now for use seven or ten years into the future and are
attempting to future proof it, you are again gambling that newer
technologies wohn't come along that will render your computer less
useable, no matter how you future proof it now.

Gene.
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 6:27 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

This isn't correct. Browsers, and other day to day applications even,
dramatically have increased ram usage, as well as CPU power. For
example, Zoom will only let you blur the background of video if you
have a quad core processor. If you buy a dual core as opposed to a
quad core processor for example, it will struggle at even the most
basic of tasks, and in 5 years, or even in a few years, programas even
screen readers will begin to lag. This happened with my core I5 4200M.
I thought a dual core was ok, though this was a system gifted to me.
Had I been choosing my own system then, I would've gone for an I7, and
now, this dual core is not even good enough for browsing. Large
websites will freeze it and even when I had it, intensive apps like
finereader will lag significantly independant of ram. This is exactly
I future proofed my next laptop, with a 1tb SSD, 32 gb of ram, and an
r7 4800H processor from AMD, with a 4.2 GHZ boost across all cores.
This should be powerful enough to run anything conceivable in the next
5 or so years, except maybe AI workloads.
On 10/15/2020 6:07 AM, Gene wrote:
I've seen others, and I believe you, too, make the future proof
argument for buying a more powerful computer than the person's
anticipated needs because it will be useful longer because you never
know when your needs will change. I've always thought such arguments
were not good ones. For one thing, a lot of people will continue to
use computers in about the same ways as now and if they do use them
in more demanding ways, those will not likely tax the computer if
they buy a computer that isn't just barely powerful enough to do what they want.

Also, technology continues to become more powerful and cost less. So,
in five years, the projected reliable life of a computer, you will be
able to buy one to meet your needs then for less money than you are
paying now. In addition, though it’s a gamble, many computers last
more than five years, many significantly more. Every dollar you
overspend to be future proofed that you didn't need because your
needs didn't change and all the extra power of your computer remains
unused is increasingly wasted, the longer your computer lasts.

It makes much more sense to buy a computer that is powerful enough to
meet your current needs well if you don't anticipate major changes in
how you will use your computer and are reasonably confident that you
won't do things in future that will exceed the ability of the computer.

Spending one-thousand dollars to future proof a machine, just in
case, maybe you use your machine much differently in the future, when
you could spend five hundred dollars today and three hundred dollars
in fived or seven or eight years for another machine that you would
probably use in similar ways as you do now or not much, is a bad idea.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2020 9:27 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me



Hi Brian,

Just for clerification, I have confirmed 5g signals do exist in my
area for my network. Even without the massive bandwidth, the lower
latency itself will probably result in better quality improvements.
Also, all versions of the IPhone by default include 5g.


On 10/14/2020 9:18 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 10:11 PM, enes sarıbaş wrote:
One reason, future proofing, I want to get the highest end version of
the IPhone 12, though 5g isn't very wiedespread now, it will be in
three years or so.- I am at a loss as to how doing this, now, squares
with your own earlier assertion, "I think 5g is more significant for
fixed wireless than smartphones."

Going to a 5G device now, when it is obscenely expensive, and where
the ability to exploit 5G is limited to a very few locations, seems
to me to be a supreme waste.

And 3 years is an eternity in the world of technology, and
smartphones in particular, and what's Apple's flagship now, will be
mid-range in 3 years, and much cheaper.

Going to a 5G smartphone now, unless you live in a major metropolitan
area, is locking your money up in a frozen asset you cannot even use
for its intended purpose.

























Re: 5g and me

Gene
 

Even though I said I would leave the under seven hundred dollar search to the reader, I was curious so I did it. See this article. The first laptop reviewed is about six hundred dollars and is well reviewed. And the article states limitations in the introduction, such limitations as you would expect. These aren't gaming or power computers, but you can find many computers in this price range that the article says will be satisfactory for a lot of people.
https://www.wired.com/gallery/best-cheap-laptops/

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Gene
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 6:24 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

I'll add that my guess of five hundred dollars for a laptop was a guess. I
haven't priced computers for a long time. I have just done a little looking
around and it may be that better or much better laptops can be had for
something like six or seven hundred dollars. But you appear to be able to
get a machine that would meet a lot of users' needs for around six hundred
dollars, and then, such a machine would be on sale off and on, here and
there. This review is an example. How representative is it in the six
hundred dollar price range? I haven't looked at other machines in that
price range but I suspect that between six and seven hundred dollars, there
are many machines that will do.

See the review of this laptop on this page:
Microsoft Surface Go 2
https://www.tomsguide.com/best-picks/best-laptops-under-500

I specified five hundred dollars in my Google search that showed this page
in the results. I haven't done a search for something ;like best laptops
for six hundred dollars or best laptops under seven hundred dollars. As the
text books may say at times, that is left as an exercise for the reader.


Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Gene
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 5:53 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

Few ports won't matter with hubs available and many people may well not need
more than the ports offered. Keyboards, I don't know how serious a problem
that is. My lapptop, I don't know if it is in the minority, as a very nice
keyboard with large keys and a nice feel. While a keyboard that is more
difficult or unpleasant to use than it should be would be an annoyance, at
least when used at home, and laptops these days often replace desktops, its
easy enough to use a USB keyboard. If this is a problem with many laptops,
it is hardly a major flaw and hardly rises to the level justifying spending
hundreds of dollars more to solve unless you use the laptop portably some or
much of the time and you can't find a portable keyboard that satisfies your
needs. Cooling? If you are talking about laptops, the person can use a
cooling pad. Not a serious problem at all.

I don't know what problems you are referring to by material design. I'll
look at the page, but the objections you have discussed don't justify
spending more on a machine unless you want to use the laptop while away from
home and a solution to a flaw makes its use unreasonably inconvenient,
something I think won't happen with most of the flaws you have discussed.
Then, too, people who live anywhere near a computer store or Walmart or Best
Buy or other such stores can inspect computers in person. And there are
always user reviews and reviews in computer magazines such as the best
laptops for 2020 and other reviews such as the best laptops for 2020 costing
under this or that amount of money. And there are lists like this, good
places to ask what machines people are using and for evaluations or to ask
about a specific machine or machines you are interested in.

In short, you can pick the flaw that either won't matter to you or will be
easy to work around, given how you use the computer or you can try to find
one without such flaws and I would think some computers without them perhaps
many, if you look, can be found.

While your objection is interesting because it leads to a discussion of the
ways to find a good computer, it doesn't justify spending more money for the
majority of users.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 3:10 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

Hi Gene,

Systems in that price range today have major flaws, iether few ports,
cooling, keyboard, mouse, material design. You can view notebookcheck
and similar technology sites, and read reviews for systems in different
price brackets, and all of those systems will have their flaws
mentioned. Whether these flaws matter though depends on the flaw or person.

On 10/15/2020 9:04 PM, Gene wrote:
And so are laptops. Your information is wrong. I bought a laptop about nine years ago, and certainly you would get more power for the same price now, for about 480 dollars. It has worked very well. It is not compromised. It doesn't have defects.

And no one said a 500 dollar computer is good for everyone. I'm not talking about gamers or power users. I'm talking about the majority of Internet users who stream, surf, use a word processor, record audio, and do other tasks that are not particularly demanding.


Gene
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 8:44 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

Just because you may consider a system adequate for your own needs
doesn't mean it is for is for everyone. A system like that would have
major compremises. For clerification, I am talking about laptop prices,
desktops in that price range may in fact be midrange. What I am saying
is a minimum system for anyone should have a 6 core or so CPU, 8 gb or
16 gb of dual channel ram, an I5processor etc.

On 10/15/2020 7:08 PM, Monte Single wrote:
Hi list,
: enes sarıbaş thinks a 500 dollar computer/laptop is less than adequate for the average user.
He is not the first person on the list to express such thoughts.
The one time I spent more than that for a computer was for the first one I purchased; that was in the last millennium.
If I spent 500 u s dollars on a computer today, it would be built with quality parts and be more than adequate for the average computer user's needs.
: enes sarıbaş go forth and conquer, spend the big bucks.
Hopefully it will stimulate the economy.



-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: October 15, 2020 5:29 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

That simply is not true. A lot of people have machines in the five hundred dollar range and they work fine.

And five hundred dollar machines aren't just barely competent machines.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 4:14 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

No, I would not buy a 500 dollar machine. In fact, I would exclude machines below a certain build quality as a matter of principle. Is saving every little penny really worth it for a device people use 12 hours a day or more? possibly? Those machines usually have more than one major flaw, and have barebone specs. I think a power user should get a pc above the 1000 dollar range, and a regular user, if they can aford it should go around 700-800. The difference between an entry level, and even midrange computer is very apparent in build quality, as well as components. A midrange system will probably have one or two important flaws, but a budget system will have three or more, iether bad keyboard, cheap material, poor cooling, etc.

On 10/15/2020 7:15 AM, Gene wrote:
And I suspect you spent over a thousand dollars to do what a five
hundred dollar computer can do, less if on sale ormanufacturer
refurbished. I don't know enough technically to discuss some of your
technical points, but I'll say the following:
The advice I see from computer advisors is that for the majority of
people, purchasing a machine somewhere in the five hundred dollar
range will meet their needs. And even if memory requirements have
gone up for some programs, they haven't gone up nearly enough that
more than 8GB of ram is recommended for the majority of users. That
is the recommendation and it has been for years.

A little money here, a little money there, a more powerful processor,
and pretty soon, you are spending five hundred dollars or more than
you need to and gambling that your machine will last far longer than
the generally agreed on length for reliable service, five years. I
think it is a very bad gamble, not because the machine won't last
longer, it may well do so, but you are spending a lot more money now
for performance parameters that will be much less expensive when you
replace the computer. And the typical user, buying a machine around
the five hundred dollar range today, unless their uses change
radically, won't have problems that will require a new machine probably for the life of the current one.

And what about technological changes itself? If you bought a machine
in the Windows 7 days that was future proofed, in your opinion at that
time, it might not run Windows 10 now. My understanding is, and if
I'm wrong, I'm sure I will be corrected, that a lot of Windows 7
machines won't run Windows 10 because Microsoft now requires that
different processors be used.

While I don't think that sort of thing will happen if one buys a
machine now for use seven or ten years into the future and are
attempting to future proof it, you are again gambling that newer
technologies wohn't come along that will render your computer less
useable, no matter how you future proof it now.

Gene.
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 6:27 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

This isn't correct. Browsers, and other day to day applications even,
dramatically have increased ram usage, as well as CPU power. For
example, Zoom will only let you blur the background of video if you
have a quad core processor. If you buy a dual core as opposed to a
quad core processor for example, it will struggle at even the most
basic of tasks, and in 5 years, or even in a few years, programas even
screen readers will begin to lag. This happened with my core I5 4200M.
I thought a dual core was ok, though this was a system gifted to me.
Had I been choosing my own system then, I would've gone for an I7, and
now, this dual core is not even good enough for browsing. Large
websites will freeze it and even when I had it, intensive apps like
finereader will lag significantly independant of ram. This is exactly
I future proofed my next laptop, with a 1tb SSD, 32 gb of ram, and an
r7 4800H processor from AMD, with a 4.2 GHZ boost across all cores.
This should be powerful enough to run anything conceivable in the next
5 or so years, except maybe AI workloads.
On 10/15/2020 6:07 AM, Gene wrote:
I've seen others, and I believe you, too, make the future proof
argument for buying a more powerful computer than the person's
anticipated needs because it will be useful longer because you never
know when your needs will change. I've always thought such arguments
were not good ones. For one thing, a lot of people will continue to
use computers in about the same ways as now and if they do use them
in more demanding ways, those will not likely tax the computer if
they buy a computer that isn't just barely powerful enough to do what they want.

Also, technology continues to become more powerful and cost less. So,
in five years, the projected reliable life of a computer, you will be
able to buy one to meet your needs then for less money than you are
paying now. In addition, though it’s a gamble, many computers last
more than five years, many significantly more. Every dollar you
overspend to be future proofed that you didn't need because your
needs didn't change and all the extra power of your computer remains
unused is increasingly wasted, the longer your computer lasts.

It makes much more sense to buy a computer that is powerful enough to
meet your current needs well if you don't anticipate major changes in
how you will use your computer and are reasonably confident that you
won't do things in future that will exceed the ability of the computer.

Spending one-thousand dollars to future proof a machine, just in
case, maybe you use your machine much differently in the future, when
you could spend five hundred dollars today and three hundred dollars
in fived or seven or eight years for another machine that you would
probably use in similar ways as you do now or not much, is a bad idea.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2020 9:27 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me



Hi Brian,

Just for clerification, I have confirmed 5g signals do exist in my
area for my network. Even without the massive bandwidth, the lower
latency itself will probably result in better quality improvements.
Also, all versions of the IPhone by default include 5g.


On 10/14/2020 9:18 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 10:11 PM, enes sarıbaş wrote:
One reason, future proofing, I want to get the highest end version of
the IPhone 12, though 5g isn't very wiedespread now, it will be in
three years or so.- I am at a loss as to how doing this, now, squares
with your own earlier assertion, "I think 5g is more significant for
fixed wireless than smartphones."

Going to a 5G device now, when it is obscenely expensive, and where
the ability to exploit 5G is limited to a very few locations, seems
to me to be a supreme waste.

And 3 years is an eternity in the world of technology, and
smartphones in particular, and what's Apple's flagship now, will be
mid-range in 3 years, and much cheaper.

Going to a 5G smartphone now, unless you live in a major metropolitan
area, is locking your money up in a frozen asset you cannot even use
for its intended purpose.

























Re: 5g and me

Gene
 

I'll add that my guess of five hundred dollars for a laptop was a guess. I haven't priced computers for a long time. I have just done a little looking around and it may be that better or much better laptops can be had for something like six or seven hundred dollars. But you appear to be able to get a machine that would meet a lot of users' needs for around six hundred dollars, and then, such a machine would be on sale off and on, here and there. This review is an example. How representative is it in the six hundred dollar price range? I haven't looked at other machines in that price range but I suspect that between six and seven hundred dollars, there are many machines that will do.

See the review of this laptop on this page:
Microsoft Surface Go 2
https://www.tomsguide.com/best-picks/best-laptops-under-500

I specified five hundred dollars in my Google search that showed this page in the results. I haven't done a search for something ;like best laptops for six hundred dollars or best laptops under seven hundred dollars. As the text books may say at times, that is left as an exercise for the reader.


Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Gene
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 5:53 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

Few ports won't matter with hubs available and many people may well not need
more than the ports offered. Keyboards, I don't know how serious a problem
that is. My lapptop, I don't know if it is in the minority, as a very nice
keyboard with large keys and a nice feel. While a keyboard that is more
difficult or unpleasant to use than it should be would be an annoyance, at
least when used at home, and laptops these days often replace desktops, its
easy enough to use a USB keyboard. If this is a problem with many laptops,
it is hardly a major flaw and hardly rises to the level justifying spending
hundreds of dollars more to solve unless you use the laptop portably some or
much of the time and you can't find a portable keyboard that satisfies your
needs. Cooling? If you are talking about laptops, the person can use a
cooling pad. Not a serious problem at all.

I don't know what problems you are referring to by material design. I'll
look at the page, but the objections you have discussed don't justify
spending more on a machine unless you want to use the laptop while away from
home and a solution to a flaw makes its use unreasonably inconvenient,
something I think won't happen with most of the flaws you have discussed.
Then, too, people who live anywhere near a computer store or Walmart or Best
Buy or other such stores can inspect computers in person. And there are
always user reviews and reviews in computer magazines such as the best
laptops for 2020 and other reviews such as the best laptops for 2020 costing
under this or that amount of money. And there are lists like this, good
places to ask what machines people are using and for evaluations or to ask
about a specific machine or machines you are interested in.

In short, you can pick the flaw that either won't matter to you or will be
easy to work around, given how you use the computer or you can try to find
one without such flaws and I would think some computers without them perhaps
many, if you look, can be found.

While your objection is interesting because it leads to a discussion of the
ways to find a good computer, it doesn't justify spending more money for the
majority of users.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 3:10 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

Hi Gene,

Systems in that price range today have major flaws, iether few ports,
cooling, keyboard, mouse, material design. You can view notebookcheck
and similar technology sites, and read reviews for systems in different
price brackets, and all of those systems will have their flaws
mentioned. Whether these flaws matter though depends on the flaw or person.

On 10/15/2020 9:04 PM, Gene wrote:
And so are laptops. Your information is wrong. I bought a laptop about nine years ago, and certainly you would get more power for the same price now, for about 480 dollars. It has worked very well. It is not compromised. It doesn't have defects.

And no one said a 500 dollar computer is good for everyone. I'm not talking about gamers or power users. I'm talking about the majority of Internet users who stream, surf, use a word processor, record audio, and do other tasks that are not particularly demanding.


Gene
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 8:44 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

Just because you may consider a system adequate for your own needs
doesn't mean it is for is for everyone. A system like that would have
major compremises. For clerification, I am talking about laptop prices,
desktops in that price range may in fact be midrange. What I am saying
is a minimum system for anyone should have a 6 core or so CPU, 8 gb or
16 gb of dual channel ram, an I5processor etc.

On 10/15/2020 7:08 PM, Monte Single wrote:
Hi list,
: enes sarıbaş thinks a 500 dollar computer/laptop is less than adequate for the average user.
He is not the first person on the list to express such thoughts.
The one time I spent more than that for a computer was for the first one I purchased; that was in the last millennium.
If I spent 500 u s dollars on a computer today, it would be built with quality parts and be more than adequate for the average computer user's needs.
: enes sarıbaş go forth and conquer, spend the big bucks.
Hopefully it will stimulate the economy.



-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: October 15, 2020 5:29 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

That simply is not true. A lot of people have machines in the five hundred dollar range and they work fine.

And five hundred dollar machines aren't just barely competent machines.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 4:14 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

No, I would not buy a 500 dollar machine. In fact, I would exclude machines below a certain build quality as a matter of principle. Is saving every little penny really worth it for a device people use 12 hours a day or more? possibly? Those machines usually have more than one major flaw, and have barebone specs. I think a power user should get a pc above the 1000 dollar range, and a regular user, if they can aford it should go around 700-800. The difference between an entry level, and even midrange computer is very apparent in build quality, as well as components. A midrange system will probably have one or two important flaws, but a budget system will have three or more, iether bad keyboard, cheap material, poor cooling, etc.

On 10/15/2020 7:15 AM, Gene wrote:
And I suspect you spent over a thousand dollars to do what a five
hundred dollar computer can do, less if on sale ormanufacturer
refurbished. I don't know enough technically to discuss some of your
technical points, but I'll say the following:
The advice I see from computer advisors is that for the majority of
people, purchasing a machine somewhere in the five hundred dollar
range will meet their needs. And even if memory requirements have
gone up for some programs, they haven't gone up nearly enough that
more than 8GB of ram is recommended for the majority of users. That
is the recommendation and it has been for years.

A little money here, a little money there, a more powerful processor,
and pretty soon, you are spending five hundred dollars or more than
you need to and gambling that your machine will last far longer than
the generally agreed on length for reliable service, five years. I
think it is a very bad gamble, not because the machine won't last
longer, it may well do so, but you are spending a lot more money now
for performance parameters that will be much less expensive when you
replace the computer. And the typical user, buying a machine around
the five hundred dollar range today, unless their uses change
radically, won't have problems that will require a new machine probably for the life of the current one.

And what about technological changes itself? If you bought a machine
in the Windows 7 days that was future proofed, in your opinion at that
time, it might not run Windows 10 now. My understanding is, and if
I'm wrong, I'm sure I will be corrected, that a lot of Windows 7
machines won't run Windows 10 because Microsoft now requires that
different processors be used.

While I don't think that sort of thing will happen if one buys a
machine now for use seven or ten years into the future and are
attempting to future proof it, you are again gambling that newer
technologies wohn't come along that will render your computer less
useable, no matter how you future proof it now.

Gene.
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 6:27 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

This isn't correct. Browsers, and other day to day applications even,
dramatically have increased ram usage, as well as CPU power. For
example, Zoom will only let you blur the background of video if you
have a quad core processor. If you buy a dual core as opposed to a
quad core processor for example, it will struggle at even the most
basic of tasks, and in 5 years, or even in a few years, programas even
screen readers will begin to lag. This happened with my core I5 4200M.
I thought a dual core was ok, though this was a system gifted to me.
Had I been choosing my own system then, I would've gone for an I7, and
now, this dual core is not even good enough for browsing. Large
websites will freeze it and even when I had it, intensive apps like
finereader will lag significantly independant of ram. This is exactly
I future proofed my next laptop, with a 1tb SSD, 32 gb of ram, and an
r7 4800H processor from AMD, with a 4.2 GHZ boost across all cores.
This should be powerful enough to run anything conceivable in the next
5 or so years, except maybe AI workloads.
On 10/15/2020 6:07 AM, Gene wrote:
I've seen others, and I believe you, too, make the future proof
argument for buying a more powerful computer than the person's
anticipated needs because it will be useful longer because you never
know when your needs will change. I've always thought such arguments
were not good ones. For one thing, a lot of people will continue to
use computers in about the same ways as now and if they do use them
in more demanding ways, those will not likely tax the computer if
they buy a computer that isn't just barely powerful enough to do what they want.

Also, technology continues to become more powerful and cost less. So,
in five years, the projected reliable life of a computer, you will be
able to buy one to meet your needs then for less money than you are
paying now. In addition, though it’s a gamble, many computers last
more than five years, many significantly more. Every dollar you
overspend to be future proofed that you didn't need because your
needs didn't change and all the extra power of your computer remains
unused is increasingly wasted, the longer your computer lasts.

It makes much more sense to buy a computer that is powerful enough to
meet your current needs well if you don't anticipate major changes in
how you will use your computer and are reasonably confident that you
won't do things in future that will exceed the ability of the computer.

Spending one-thousand dollars to future proof a machine, just in
case, maybe you use your machine much differently in the future, when
you could spend five hundred dollars today and three hundred dollars
in fived or seven or eight years for another machine that you would
probably use in similar ways as you do now or not much, is a bad idea.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2020 9:27 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me



Hi Brian,

Just for clerification, I have confirmed 5g signals do exist in my
area for my network. Even without the massive bandwidth, the lower
latency itself will probably result in better quality improvements.
Also, all versions of the IPhone by default include 5g.


On 10/14/2020 9:18 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 10:11 PM, enes sarıbaş wrote:
One reason, future proofing, I want to get the highest end version of
the IPhone 12, though 5g isn't very wiedespread now, it will be in
three years or so.- I am at a loss as to how doing this, now, squares
with your own earlier assertion, "I think 5g is more significant for
fixed wireless than smartphones."

Going to a 5G device now, when it is obscenely expensive, and where
the ability to exploit 5G is limited to a very few locations, seems
to me to be a supreme waste.

And 3 years is an eternity in the world of technology, and
smartphones in particular, and what's Apple's flagship now, will be
mid-range in 3 years, and much cheaper.

Going to a 5G smartphone now, unless you live in a major metropolitan
area, is locking your money up in a frozen asset you cannot even use
for its intended purpose.

























Re: 5g and me

enes sarıbaş
 

Hi Gene,

I am not an ordinary user. When I purchase a computer, I will not settle for anything less than the best. This system, while still able to run browsers and regular websites ok, struggles and crashes freezes when running large websites.  The difference in processor technology reached a critically dramatic point when I thhought replacing this was a good option. Every component on my new machine should at least provide a 100% improvement or more, even ram speeds, 1600 vs 3200.

Flaws on laptops on that price range are usually intolerable. A cheap case will not cool properly, and  will bend or warp easily. For example, my laptop's plastic yields under the DVD drive. Cooling isn't fixable with a cooling pad. Unfortunately with the focus on portability  cooling is taking a back seat with laptops. If fans are too small for the thermals, or if vents are too small, that throttles down the processor. For sighted people, the screens of such machines are terrible in quality. And a USB keyboard adds unneeded bulk to laptops.  Look at a list of best laptops on any sight, and you won't see any machines in your price range that make those lists. Here is an article  which describes why  it makes sense to pay for a better laptop.

https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/dont-be-so-cheap-five-reasons-you-should-spend-more-on-your-next-laptop/

On 10/16/2020 5:53 AM, Gene wrote:
Few ports won't matter with hubs available and many people may well not need more than the ports offered.  Keyboards, I don't know how serious a problem that is.  My lapptop, I don't know if it is in the minority, as a very nice keyboard with large keys and a nice feel.  While a keyboard that is more difficult or unpleasant to use than it should be would be an annoyance, at least when used at home, and laptops these days often replace desktops, its easy enough to use a USB keyboard.  If this is a problem with many laptops, it is hardly a major flaw and hardly rises to the level justifying spending hundreds of dollars more to solve unless you use the laptop portably some or much of the time and you can't find a portable keyboard that satisfies your needs.  Cooling?  If you are talking about laptops, the person can use a cooling pad. Not a serious problem at all.

I don't know what problems you are referring to by material design.  I'll look at the page, but the objections you have discussed don't justify spending more on a machine unless you want to use the laptop while away from home and a solution to a flaw makes its use unreasonably inconvenient, something I think won't happen with most of the flaws you have discussed. Then, too, people who live anywhere near a computer store or Walmart or Best Buy or other such stores can inspect computers in person.  And there are always user reviews and reviews in computer magazines such as the best laptops for 2020 and other reviews such as the best laptops for 2020 costing under this or that amount of money. And there are lists like this, good places to ask what machines people are using and for evaluations or to ask about a specific machine or machines you are interested in.

In short, you can pick the flaw that either won't matter to you or will be easy to work around, given how you use the computer or you can try to find one without such flaws and I would think some computers without them perhaps many, if you look, can be found.

While your objection is interesting because it leads to a discussion of the ways to find a good computer, it doesn't justify spending more money for the majority of users.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 3:10 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

Hi Gene,

Systems in that price range today have major flaws, iether few ports,
cooling, keyboard, mouse, material design. You can view notebookcheck
and similar technology sites, and read reviews for systems in different
price brackets, and all of those systems will have their flaws
mentioned. Whether these flaws matter though depends on the flaw or person.

On 10/15/2020 9:04 PM, Gene wrote:
And so are laptops.  Your information is wrong.  I bought a laptop about nine years ago, and certainly you would get more power for the same price now, for about 480 dollars.  It has worked very well.  It is not compromised.  It doesn't have defects.

And no one said a 500 dollar computer is good for everyone.  I'm not talking about gamers or power users.  I'm talking about the majority of Internet users who stream, surf, use a word processor, record audio, and do other tasks that are not particularly demanding.


Gene
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 8:44 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

Just because you may consider a system adequate for your own needs
doesn't mean it is for  is for everyone. A system like that would have
major compremises. For clerification, I am talking about laptop prices,
desktops in that price range may in fact be midrange. What I am saying
is a minimum system for anyone should have a 6 core or so CPU, 8 gb or
16 gb of dual channel ram, an I5processor etc.

On 10/15/2020 7:08 PM, Monte Single wrote:
Hi list,
: enes sarıbaş  thinks a 500 dollar computer/laptop is less than adequate for the average user.
He is not the first person on the list to express such thoughts.
The  one time I spent more than that for a computer was for the first one I purchased;  that was in the last millennium.
If I spent 500 u s dollars on a computer today,  it would be built with quality parts and be more than adequate for the average computer user's needs.
: enes sarıbaş   go forth and conquer, spend the big bucks.
Hopefully it will stimulate the economy.



-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: October 15, 2020 5:29 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

That simply is not true.  A lot of people have machines in the five hundred dollar range and they work fine.

And five hundred dollar machines aren't just barely competent machines.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 4:14 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

No, I would not buy a 500 dollar machine. In fact, I would exclude machines below a certain build quality as a matter of principle. Is saving every little penny really worth it for a device people use 12 hours a day or more? possibly? Those machines usually have more than one major flaw, and have barebone specs. I think a power user should get a pc above the 1000 dollar range, and a regular user, if they can aford it should go around 700-800. The difference between an entry level, and even midrange computer is very apparent in build quality, as well as components. A midrange system will probably have one or two important flaws, but a budget system will have three or more, iether bad keyboard, cheap material, poor cooling, etc.

On 10/15/2020 7:15 AM, Gene wrote:
And I suspect you spent over a thousand dollars to do what a five
hundred dollar computer can do, less if on sale ormanufacturer
refurbished.  I don't know enough technically to discuss some of your
technical points, but I'll say the following:
The advice I see from computer advisors is that for the majority of
people, purchasing a machine somewhere in the five hundred dollar
range will meet their needs.  And even if memory requirements have
gone up for some programs, they haven't gone up nearly enough that
more than 8GB of ram is recommended for the majority of users.  That
is the recommendation and it has been for years.

A little money here, a little money there, a more powerful processor,
and pretty soon, you are spending five hundred dollars or more than
you need to and gambling that your machine will last far longer than
the generally agreed on length for reliable service, five years.  I
think it is a very bad gamble, not because the machine won't last
longer, it may well do so, but you are spending a lot more money now
for performance parameters that will be much less expensive when you
replace the computer.  And the typical user, buying a machine around
the five hundred dollar range today, unless their uses change
radically, won't have problems that will require a new machine probably for the life of the current one.

And what about technological changes itself?  If you bought a machine
in the Windows 7 days that was future proofed, in your opinion at that
time, it might not run Windows 10 now.  My understanding is, and if
I'm wrong, I'm sure I will be corrected, that a lot of Windows 7
machines won't run Windows 10 because Microsoft now requires that
different processors be used.

While I don't think that sort of thing will happen if one buys a
machine now for use seven or ten years into the future and are
attempting to future proof it, you are again gambling that newer
technologies wohn't come along that will render your computer less
useable, no matter how you future proof it now.

Gene.
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 6:27 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

This isn't correct. Browsers, and other day to day applications even,
dramatically have increased ram usage, as well as CPU power. For
example, Zoom will only let you blur the background of video if you
have a quad core processor. If you buy a dual core as opposed to a
quad core processor for example, it will struggle at even the most
basic of tasks, and in 5 years, or even in a few years, programas even
screen readers will begin to lag. This happened with my core I5 4200M.
I thought a dual core was ok, though this was a system gifted to me.
Had I been choosing my own system then, I would've gone for an I7, and
now, this dual core is not even good enough for browsing. Large
websites will freeze it and even when I had it, intensive apps like
finereader will lag significantly independant of ram. This is exactly
I future proofed my next laptop, with a 1tb SSD, 32 gb of ram, and an
r7 4800H processor from AMD, with a 4.2 GHZ boost across all cores.
This should be powerful enough to run anything conceivable in the next
5 or so years, except maybe AI workloads.
On 10/15/2020 6:07 AM, Gene wrote:
I've seen others, and I believe you, too, make the future proof
argument for buying a more powerful computer than the person's
anticipated needs because it will be useful longer because you never
know when your needs will change. I've always thought such arguments
were not good ones. For one thing, a lot of people will continue to
use computers in about the same ways as now and if they do use them
in more demanding ways, those will not likely tax the computer if
they buy a computer that isn't just barely powerful enough to do what they want.

Also, technology continues to become more powerful and cost less. So,
in five years, the projected reliable life of a computer, you will be
able to buy one to meet your needs then for less money than you are
paying now. In addition, though it’s a gamble, many computers last
more than five years, many significantly more. Every dollar you
overspend to be future proofed that you didn't need because your
needs didn't change and all the extra power of your computer remains
unused is increasingly wasted, the longer your computer lasts.

It makes much more sense to buy a computer that is powerful enough to
meet your current needs well if you don't anticipate major changes in
how you will use your computer and are reasonably confident that you
won't do things in future that will exceed the ability of the computer.

Spending one-thousand dollars to future proof a machine, just in
case, maybe you use your machine much differently in the future, when
you could spend five hundred dollars today and three hundred dollars
in fived or seven or eight years for another machine that you would
probably use in similar ways as you do now or not much, is a bad idea.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2020 9:27 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me



Hi Brian,

Just for clerification, I have confirmed 5g signals do exist in my
area for my network. Even without the massive bandwidth, the lower
latency itself will probably result in better quality improvements.
Also, all versions of the IPhone by default include 5g.


On 10/14/2020 9:18 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 10:11 PM, enes sarıbaş wrote:
One reason, future proofing, I want to get the highest end version of
the IPhone 12, though 5g isn't very wiedespread now, it will be in
three years or so.- I am at a loss as to how doing this, now, squares
with your own earlier assertion, "I think 5g is more significant for
fixed wireless than smartphones."

Going to a 5G device now, when it is obscenely expensive, and where
the ability to exploit 5G is limited to a very few locations, seems
to me to be a supreme waste.

And 3 years is an eternity in the world of technology, and
smartphones in particular, and what's Apple's flagship now, will be
mid-range in 3 years, and much cheaper.

Going to a 5G smartphone now, unless you live in a major metropolitan
area, is locking your money up in a frozen asset you cannot even use
for its intended purpose.































Re: 5g and me

Gene
 

Few ports won't matter with hubs available and many people may well not need more than the ports offered. Keyboards, I don't know how serious a problem that is. My lapptop, I don't know if it is in the minority, as a very nice keyboard with large keys and a nice feel. While a keyboard that is more difficult or unpleasant to use than it should be would be an annoyance, at least when used at home, and laptops these days often replace desktops, its easy enough to use a USB keyboard. If this is a problem with many laptops, it is hardly a major flaw and hardly rises to the level justifying spending hundreds of dollars more to solve unless you use the laptop portably some or much of the time and you can't find a portable keyboard that satisfies your needs. Cooling? If you are talking about laptops, the person can use a cooling pad. Not a serious problem at all.

I don't know what problems you are referring to by material design. I'll look at the page, but the objections you have discussed don't justify spending more on a machine unless you want to use the laptop while away from home and a solution to a flaw makes its use unreasonably inconvenient, something I think won't happen with most of the flaws you have discussed. Then, too, people who live anywhere near a computer store or Walmart or Best Buy or other such stores can inspect computers in person. And there are always user reviews and reviews in computer magazines such as the best laptops for 2020 and other reviews such as the best laptops for 2020 costing under this or that amount of money. And there are lists like this, good places to ask what machines people are using and for evaluations or to ask about a specific machine or machines you are interested in.

In short, you can pick the flaw that either won't matter to you or will be easy to work around, given how you use the computer or you can try to find one without such flaws and I would think some computers without them perhaps many, if you look, can be found.

While your objection is interesting because it leads to a discussion of the ways to find a good computer, it doesn't justify spending more money for the majority of users.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 3:10 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

Hi Gene,

Systems in that price range today have major flaws, iether few ports,
cooling, keyboard, mouse, material design. You can view notebookcheck
and similar technology sites, and read reviews for systems in different
price brackets, and all of those systems will have their flaws
mentioned. Whether these flaws matter though depends on the flaw or person.

On 10/15/2020 9:04 PM, Gene wrote:
And so are laptops. Your information is wrong. I bought a laptop about nine years ago, and certainly you would get more power for the same price now, for about 480 dollars. It has worked very well. It is not compromised. It doesn't have defects.

And no one said a 500 dollar computer is good for everyone. I'm not talking about gamers or power users. I'm talking about the majority of Internet users who stream, surf, use a word processor, record audio, and do other tasks that are not particularly demanding.


Gene
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 8:44 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

Just because you may consider a system adequate for your own needs
doesn't mean it is for is for everyone. A system like that would have
major compremises. For clerification, I am talking about laptop prices,
desktops in that price range may in fact be midrange. What I am saying
is a minimum system for anyone should have a 6 core or so CPU, 8 gb or
16 gb of dual channel ram, an I5processor etc.

On 10/15/2020 7:08 PM, Monte Single wrote:
Hi list,
: enes sarıbaş thinks a 500 dollar computer/laptop is less than adequate for the average user.
He is not the first person on the list to express such thoughts.
The one time I spent more than that for a computer was for the first one I purchased; that was in the last millennium.
If I spent 500 u s dollars on a computer today, it would be built with quality parts and be more than adequate for the average computer user's needs.
: enes sarıbaş go forth and conquer, spend the big bucks.
Hopefully it will stimulate the economy.



-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: October 15, 2020 5:29 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

That simply is not true. A lot of people have machines in the five hundred dollar range and they work fine.

And five hundred dollar machines aren't just barely competent machines.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 4:14 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

No, I would not buy a 500 dollar machine. In fact, I would exclude machines below a certain build quality as a matter of principle. Is saving every little penny really worth it for a device people use 12 hours a day or more? possibly? Those machines usually have more than one major flaw, and have barebone specs. I think a power user should get a pc above the 1000 dollar range, and a regular user, if they can aford it should go around 700-800. The difference between an entry level, and even midrange computer is very apparent in build quality, as well as components. A midrange system will probably have one or two important flaws, but a budget system will have three or more, iether bad keyboard, cheap material, poor cooling, etc.

On 10/15/2020 7:15 AM, Gene wrote:
And I suspect you spent over a thousand dollars to do what a five
hundred dollar computer can do, less if on sale ormanufacturer
refurbished. I don't know enough technically to discuss some of your
technical points, but I'll say the following:
The advice I see from computer advisors is that for the majority of
people, purchasing a machine somewhere in the five hundred dollar
range will meet their needs. And even if memory requirements have
gone up for some programs, they haven't gone up nearly enough that
more than 8GB of ram is recommended for the majority of users. That
is the recommendation and it has been for years.

A little money here, a little money there, a more powerful processor,
and pretty soon, you are spending five hundred dollars or more than
you need to and gambling that your machine will last far longer than
the generally agreed on length for reliable service, five years. I
think it is a very bad gamble, not because the machine won't last
longer, it may well do so, but you are spending a lot more money now
for performance parameters that will be much less expensive when you
replace the computer. And the typical user, buying a machine around
the five hundred dollar range today, unless their uses change
radically, won't have problems that will require a new machine probably for the life of the current one.

And what about technological changes itself? If you bought a machine
in the Windows 7 days that was future proofed, in your opinion at that
time, it might not run Windows 10 now. My understanding is, and if
I'm wrong, I'm sure I will be corrected, that a lot of Windows 7
machines won't run Windows 10 because Microsoft now requires that
different processors be used.

While I don't think that sort of thing will happen if one buys a
machine now for use seven or ten years into the future and are
attempting to future proof it, you are again gambling that newer
technologies wohn't come along that will render your computer less
useable, no matter how you future proof it now.

Gene.
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 6:27 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

This isn't correct. Browsers, and other day to day applications even,
dramatically have increased ram usage, as well as CPU power. For
example, Zoom will only let you blur the background of video if you
have a quad core processor. If you buy a dual core as opposed to a
quad core processor for example, it will struggle at even the most
basic of tasks, and in 5 years, or even in a few years, programas even
screen readers will begin to lag. This happened with my core I5 4200M.
I thought a dual core was ok, though this was a system gifted to me.
Had I been choosing my own system then, I would've gone for an I7, and
now, this dual core is not even good enough for browsing. Large
websites will freeze it and even when I had it, intensive apps like
finereader will lag significantly independant of ram. This is exactly
I future proofed my next laptop, with a 1tb SSD, 32 gb of ram, and an
r7 4800H processor from AMD, with a 4.2 GHZ boost across all cores.
This should be powerful enough to run anything conceivable in the next
5 or so years, except maybe AI workloads.
On 10/15/2020 6:07 AM, Gene wrote:
I've seen others, and I believe you, too, make the future proof
argument for buying a more powerful computer than the person's
anticipated needs because it will be useful longer because you never
know when your needs will change. I've always thought such arguments
were not good ones. For one thing, a lot of people will continue to
use computers in about the same ways as now and if they do use them
in more demanding ways, those will not likely tax the computer if
they buy a computer that isn't just barely powerful enough to do what they want.

Also, technology continues to become more powerful and cost less. So,
in five years, the projected reliable life of a computer, you will be
able to buy one to meet your needs then for less money than you are
paying now. In addition, though it’s a gamble, many computers last
more than five years, many significantly more. Every dollar you
overspend to be future proofed that you didn't need because your
needs didn't change and all the extra power of your computer remains
unused is increasingly wasted, the longer your computer lasts.

It makes much more sense to buy a computer that is powerful enough to
meet your current needs well if you don't anticipate major changes in
how you will use your computer and are reasonably confident that you
won't do things in future that will exceed the ability of the computer.

Spending one-thousand dollars to future proof a machine, just in
case, maybe you use your machine much differently in the future, when
you could spend five hundred dollars today and three hundred dollars
in fived or seven or eight years for another machine that you would
probably use in similar ways as you do now or not much, is a bad idea.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2020 9:27 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me



Hi Brian,

Just for clerification, I have confirmed 5g signals do exist in my
area for my network. Even without the massive bandwidth, the lower
latency itself will probably result in better quality improvements.
Also, all versions of the IPhone by default include 5g.


On 10/14/2020 9:18 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 10:11 PM, enes sarıbaş wrote:
One reason, future proofing, I want to get the highest end version of
the IPhone 12, though 5g isn't very wiedespread now, it will be in
three years or so.- I am at a loss as to how doing this, now, squares
with your own earlier assertion, "I think 5g is more significant for
fixed wireless than smartphones."

Going to a 5G device now, when it is obscenely expensive, and where
the ability to exploit 5G is limited to a very few locations, seems
to me to be a supreme waste.

And 3 years is an eternity in the world of technology, and
smartphones in particular, and what's Apple's flagship now, will be
mid-range in 3 years, and much cheaper.

Going to a 5G smartphone now, unless you live in a major metropolitan
area, is locking your money up in a frozen asset you cannot even use
for its intended purpose.

























Re: 5g and me

enes sarıbaş
 

Hi Gene,

Systems in that price range today have major flaws, iether few ports,  cooling, keyboard, mouse, material design. You can view notebookcheck and similar technology sites, and read reviews for systems in different price brackets, and all of those systems will have their flaws mentioned. Whether these flaws matter though depends on the flaw or person.

On 10/15/2020 9:04 PM, Gene wrote:
And so are laptops.  Your information is wrong.  I bought a laptop about nine years ago, and certainly you would get more power for the same price now, for about 480 dollars.  It has worked very well.  It is not compromised.  It doesn't have defects.

And no one said a 500 dollar computer is good for everyone.  I'm not talking about gamers or power users.  I'm talking about the majority of Internet users who stream, surf, use a word processor, record audio, and do other tasks that are not particularly demanding.


Gene
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 8:44 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

Just because you may consider a system adequate for your own needs
doesn't mean it is for  is for everyone. A system like that would have
major compremises. For clerification, I am talking about laptop prices,
desktops in that price range may in fact be midrange. What I am saying
is a minimum system for anyone should have a 6 core or so CPU, 8 gb or
16 gb of dual channel ram, an I5processor etc.

On 10/15/2020 7:08 PM, Monte Single wrote:
Hi list,
: enes sarıbaş  thinks a 500 dollar computer/laptop is less than adequate for the average user.
He is not the first person on the list to express such thoughts.
The  one time I spent more than that for a computer was for the first one I purchased;  that was in the last millennium.
If I spent 500 u s dollars on a computer today,  it would be built with quality parts and be more than adequate for the average computer user's needs.
: enes sarıbaş   go forth and conquer, spend the big bucks.
Hopefully it will stimulate the economy.



-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: October 15, 2020 5:29 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

That simply is not true.  A lot of people have machines in the five hundred dollar range and they work fine.

And five hundred dollar machines aren't just barely competent machines.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 4:14 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

No, I would not buy a 500 dollar machine. In fact, I would exclude machines below a certain build quality as a matter of principle. Is saving every little penny really worth it for a device people use 12 hours a day or more? possibly? Those machines usually have more than one major flaw, and have barebone specs. I think a power user should get a pc above the 1000 dollar range, and a regular user, if they can aford it should go around 700-800. The difference between an entry level, and even midrange computer is very apparent in build quality, as well as components. A midrange system will probably have one or two important flaws, but a budget system will have three or more, iether bad keyboard, cheap material, poor cooling, etc.

On 10/15/2020 7:15 AM, Gene wrote:
And I suspect you spent over a thousand dollars to do what a five
hundred dollar computer can do, less if on sale ormanufacturer
refurbished.  I don't know enough technically to discuss some of your
technical points, but I'll say the following:
The advice I see from computer advisors is that for the majority of
people, purchasing a machine somewhere in the five hundred dollar
range will meet their needs.  And even if memory requirements have
gone up for some programs, they haven't gone up nearly enough that
more than 8GB of ram is recommended for the majority of users.  That
is the recommendation and it has been for years.

A little money here, a little money there, a more powerful processor,
and pretty soon, you are spending five hundred dollars or more than
you need to and gambling that your machine will last far longer than
the generally agreed on length for reliable service, five years.  I
think it is a very bad gamble, not because the machine won't last
longer, it may well do so, but you are spending a lot more money now
for performance parameters that will be much less expensive when you
replace the computer.  And the typical user, buying a machine around
the five hundred dollar range today, unless their uses change
radically, won't have problems that will require a new machine probably for the life of the current one.

And what about technological changes itself?  If you bought a machine
in the Windows 7 days that was future proofed, in your opinion at that
time, it might not run Windows 10 now.  My understanding is, and if
I'm wrong, I'm sure I will be corrected, that a lot of Windows 7
machines won't run Windows 10 because Microsoft now requires that
different processors be used.

While I don't think that sort of thing will happen if one buys a
machine now for use seven or ten years into the future and are
attempting to future proof it, you are again gambling that newer
technologies wohn't come along that will render your computer less
useable, no matter how you future proof it now.

Gene.
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 6:27 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

This isn't correct. Browsers, and other day to day applications even,
dramatically have increased ram usage, as well as CPU power. For
example, Zoom will only let you blur the background of video if you
have a quad core processor. If you buy a dual core as opposed to a
quad core processor for example, it will struggle at even the most
basic of tasks, and in 5 years, or even in a few years, programas even
screen readers will begin to lag. This happened with my core I5 4200M.
I thought a dual core was ok, though this was a system gifted to me.
Had I been choosing my own system then, I would've gone for an I7, and
now, this dual core is not even good enough for browsing. Large
websites will freeze it and even when I had it, intensive apps like
finereader will lag significantly independant of ram. This is exactly
I future proofed my next laptop, with a 1tb SSD, 32 gb of ram, and an
r7 4800H processor from AMD, with a 4.2 GHZ boost across all cores.
This should be powerful enough to run anything conceivable in the next
5 or so years, except maybe AI workloads.
On 10/15/2020 6:07 AM, Gene wrote:
I've seen others, and I believe you, too, make the future proof
argument for buying a more powerful computer than the person's
anticipated needs because it will be useful longer because you never
know when your needs will change. I've always thought such arguments
were not good ones. For one thing, a lot of people will continue to
use computers in about the same ways as now and if they do use them
in more demanding ways, those will not likely tax the computer if
they buy a computer that isn't just barely powerful enough to do what they want.

Also, technology continues to become more powerful and cost less. So,
in five years, the projected reliable life of a computer, you will be
able to buy one to meet your needs then for less money than you are
paying now. In addition, though it’s a gamble, many computers last
more than five years, many significantly more. Every dollar you
overspend to be future proofed that you didn't need because your
needs didn't change and all the extra power of your computer remains
unused is increasingly wasted, the longer your computer lasts.

It makes much more sense to buy a computer that is powerful enough to
meet your current needs well if you don't anticipate major changes in
how you will use your computer and are reasonably confident that you
won't do things in future that will exceed the ability of the computer.

Spending one-thousand dollars to future proof a machine, just in
case, maybe you use your machine much differently in the future, when
you could spend five hundred dollars today and three hundred dollars
in fived or seven or eight years for another machine that you would
probably use in similar ways as you do now or not much, is a bad idea.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2020 9:27 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me



Hi Brian,

Just for clerification, I have confirmed 5g signals do exist in my
area for my network. Even without the massive bandwidth, the lower
latency itself will probably result in better quality improvements.
Also, all versions of the IPhone by default include 5g.


On 10/14/2020 9:18 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 10:11 PM, enes sarıbaş wrote:
One reason, future proofing, I want to get the highest end version of
the IPhone 12, though 5g isn't very wiedespread now, it will be in
three years or so.- I am at a loss as to how doing this, now, squares
with your own earlier assertion, "I think 5g is more significant for
fixed wireless than smartphones."

Going to a 5G device now, when it is obscenely expensive, and where
the ability to exploit 5G is limited to a very few locations, seems
to me to be a supreme waste.

And 3 years is an eternity in the world of technology, and
smartphones in particular, and what's Apple's flagship now, will be
mid-range in 3 years, and much cheaper.

Going to a 5G smartphone now, unless you live in a major metropolitan
area, is locking your money up in a frozen asset you cannot even use
for its intended purpose.
























Re: How to remove something from Download folder?

Dave
 

Thanks Sam, that worked just as I needed it to work.


Thanks,


Grumpy Dave



On 10/15/2020 6:57 PM, Sam Taylor wrote:

Hi Dave,

From within your downloads folder, press alt, followed by v, then g, then select the none option with your arrow keys and press enter. This will disable grouping.
Cheers
Sam

On 16/10/2020 11:55 am, Dave wrote:
Hello,


Win 10 has Daily, Weekly and Monthly Sections when the Download folder is opened.


I would like to remove these sections, and just have all files in this folder sort according to how I have it set, when this folder is opened.


Anyone know how to remove these section titles, for Today, Yesterday, last week, last month etc.?


Thanks,


Grumpy Dave









Re: Help with very unusual issue with no solution thus far

Dave
 

Hi Rick,


If the only thing that changed on the system was the monitor and the Video Drivers, then looks like you've got a incompatibility issue with either Jaws and those New Drivers, or the Clipboard Software and those Drivers. 


JAWS does have a special ability to intercept Text information set through most Drivers.  And NVDA, I believe, does not have this ability, and so can't read this text in the normal way text sent to the screen might be read by a Screen Reader. 



Sounds like a very nice monitor, but to check this out better, uninstall those new drivers, and disconnect the New Monitor.  Install the old Video Drivers, and re-hook up the old Monitor.  If you once again can read everything you need, then looks like you've got a compatibility issues with those new Drivers.


Grumpy Dave


On 10/15/2020 12:05 PM, Rick Alfaro wrote:

Will attempt to describe this issue as best I can. I’ve brought this up with JFW support but no joy there.

 

This is on a very fast Cyber Power gaming PC running at 3.9 GHZ with 16GB of memory. The application exhibiting the issue Clipmate from ThornSoft development. ClipMate is a clipboard manager. This app has worked flawlessly for years now but things changed when I installed a 43 inch 4k monitor to replace a smaller one I had via and HDMI port provided on my video card.

 

After installing the larger monitor, JFW stopped tracking the program context menus with the window in a restored state. Maximizing the window with tracking somewhat for listviews but made no difference with the context menus. This pretty much has made the program fairly useless. I’ve tried bringing down the screen resolution from 2160 to 1080p which was what my old monitor was set to but it made no difference. I also updated the video card drivers directly from the OEM’s web site again with no difference.

 

If anyone has any other ideas, I’m all ears and will gratefully give them a try.

 

 

 

 

 

Warmest regards

 

Rick Alfaro

 


Working wit PDFs

Kerryann Ifill <ksbf@...>
 

Dear all:

Working on a pc running the latest build windows 10, how to accomplish the following:

1. Downloading a PDF or any other file directly to downloads instead of bringing up the page with rotatinging clockwise etc.
2. PDFs only have the option of being opened with chrome or edge. How do I add MS word as an option to open the file?

I hope I made myself clear as I may have missed a couple points.

Regards
Kerryann Ifill


Re: 5g and me

Gene
 

And so are laptops. Your information is wrong. I bought a laptop about nine years ago, and certainly you would get more power for the same price now, for about 480 dollars. It has worked very well. It is not compromised. It doesn't have defects.

And no one said a 500 dollar computer is good for everyone. I'm not talking about gamers or power users. I'm talking about the majority of Internet users who stream, surf, use a word processor, record audio, and do other tasks that are not particularly demanding.


Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 8:44 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

Just because you may consider a system adequate for your own needs
doesn't mean it is for is for everyone. A system like that would have
major compremises. For clerification, I am talking about laptop prices,
desktops in that price range may in fact be midrange. What I am saying
is a minimum system for anyone should have a 6 core or so CPU, 8 gb or
16 gb of dual channel ram, an I5processor etc.

On 10/15/2020 7:08 PM, Monte Single wrote:
Hi list,
: enes sarıbaş thinks a 500 dollar computer/laptop is less than adequate for the average user.
He is not the first person on the list to express such thoughts.
The one time I spent more than that for a computer was for the first one I purchased; that was in the last millennium.
If I spent 500 u s dollars on a computer today, it would be built with quality parts and be more than adequate for the average computer user's needs.
: enes sarıbaş go forth and conquer, spend the big bucks.
Hopefully it will stimulate the economy.



-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: October 15, 2020 5:29 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

That simply is not true. A lot of people have machines in the five hundred dollar range and they work fine.

And five hundred dollar machines aren't just barely competent machines.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 4:14 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

No, I would not buy a 500 dollar machine. In fact, I would exclude machines below a certain build quality as a matter of principle. Is saving every little penny really worth it for a device people use 12 hours a day or more? possibly? Those machines usually have more than one major flaw, and have barebone specs. I think a power user should get a pc above the 1000 dollar range, and a regular user, if they can aford it should go around 700-800. The difference between an entry level, and even midrange computer is very apparent in build quality, as well as components. A midrange system will probably have one or two important flaws, but a budget system will have three or more, iether bad keyboard, cheap material, poor cooling, etc.

On 10/15/2020 7:15 AM, Gene wrote:
And I suspect you spent over a thousand dollars to do what a five
hundred dollar computer can do, less if on sale ormanufacturer
refurbished. I don't know enough technically to discuss some of your
technical points, but I'll say the following:
The advice I see from computer advisors is that for the majority of
people, purchasing a machine somewhere in the five hundred dollar
range will meet their needs. And even if memory requirements have
gone up for some programs, they haven't gone up nearly enough that
more than 8GB of ram is recommended for the majority of users. That
is the recommendation and it has been for years.

A little money here, a little money there, a more powerful processor,
and pretty soon, you are spending five hundred dollars or more than
you need to and gambling that your machine will last far longer than
the generally agreed on length for reliable service, five years. I
think it is a very bad gamble, not because the machine won't last
longer, it may well do so, but you are spending a lot more money now
for performance parameters that will be much less expensive when you
replace the computer. And the typical user, buying a machine around
the five hundred dollar range today, unless their uses change
radically, won't have problems that will require a new machine probably for the life of the current one.

And what about technological changes itself? If you bought a machine
in the Windows 7 days that was future proofed, in your opinion at that
time, it might not run Windows 10 now. My understanding is, and if
I'm wrong, I'm sure I will be corrected, that a lot of Windows 7
machines won't run Windows 10 because Microsoft now requires that
different processors be used.

While I don't think that sort of thing will happen if one buys a
machine now for use seven or ten years into the future and are
attempting to future proof it, you are again gambling that newer
technologies wohn't come along that will render your computer less
useable, no matter how you future proof it now.

Gene.
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 6:27 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

This isn't correct. Browsers, and other day to day applications even,
dramatically have increased ram usage, as well as CPU power. For
example, Zoom will only let you blur the background of video if you
have a quad core processor. If you buy a dual core as opposed to a
quad core processor for example, it will struggle at even the most
basic of tasks, and in 5 years, or even in a few years, programas even
screen readers will begin to lag. This happened with my core I5 4200M.
I thought a dual core was ok, though this was a system gifted to me.
Had I been choosing my own system then, I would've gone for an I7, and
now, this dual core is not even good enough for browsing. Large
websites will freeze it and even when I had it, intensive apps like
finereader will lag significantly independant of ram. This is exactly
I future proofed my next laptop, with a 1tb SSD, 32 gb of ram, and an
r7 4800H processor from AMD, with a 4.2 GHZ boost across all cores.
This should be powerful enough to run anything conceivable in the next
5 or so years, except maybe AI workloads.
On 10/15/2020 6:07 AM, Gene wrote:
I've seen others, and I believe you, too, make the future proof
argument for buying a more powerful computer than the person's
anticipated needs because it will be useful longer because you never
know when your needs will change. I've always thought such arguments
were not good ones. For one thing, a lot of people will continue to
use computers in about the same ways as now and if they do use them
in more demanding ways, those will not likely tax the computer if
they buy a computer that isn't just barely powerful enough to do what they want.

Also, technology continues to become more powerful and cost less. So,
in five years, the projected reliable life of a computer, you will be
able to buy one to meet your needs then for less money than you are
paying now. In addition, though it’s a gamble, many computers last
more than five years, many significantly more. Every dollar you
overspend to be future proofed that you didn't need because your
needs didn't change and all the extra power of your computer remains
unused is increasingly wasted, the longer your computer lasts.

It makes much more sense to buy a computer that is powerful enough to
meet your current needs well if you don't anticipate major changes in
how you will use your computer and are reasonably confident that you
won't do things in future that will exceed the ability of the computer.

Spending one-thousand dollars to future proof a machine, just in
case, maybe you use your machine much differently in the future, when
you could spend five hundred dollars today and three hundred dollars
in fived or seven or eight years for another machine that you would
probably use in similar ways as you do now or not much, is a bad idea.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2020 9:27 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me



Hi Brian,

Just for clerification, I have confirmed 5g signals do exist in my
area for my network. Even without the massive bandwidth, the lower
latency itself will probably result in better quality improvements.
Also, all versions of the IPhone by default include 5g.


On 10/14/2020 9:18 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 10:11 PM, enes sarıbaş wrote:
One reason, future proofing, I want to get the highest end version of
the IPhone 12, though 5g isn't very wiedespread now, it will be in
three years or so.- I am at a loss as to how doing this, now, squares
with your own earlier assertion, "I think 5g is more significant for
fixed wireless than smartphones."

Going to a 5G device now, when it is obscenely expensive, and where
the ability to exploit 5G is limited to a very few locations, seems
to me to be a supreme waste.

And 3 years is an eternity in the world of technology, and
smartphones in particular, and what's Apple's flagship now, will be
mid-range in 3 years, and much cheaper.

Going to a 5G smartphone now, unless you live in a major metropolitan
area, is locking your money up in a frozen asset you cannot even use
for its intended purpose.


















Re: How to remove something from Download folder?

Sam Taylor
 

Hi Dave,

From within your downloads folder, press alt, followed by v, then g, then select the none option with your arrow keys and press enter. This will disable grouping.
Cheers
Sam

On 16/10/2020 11:55 am, Dave wrote:
Hello,


Win 10 has Daily, Weekly and Monthly Sections when the Download folder is opened.


I would like to remove these sections, and just have all files in this folder sort according to how I have it set, when this folder is opened.


Anyone know how to remove these section titles, for Today, Yesterday, last week, last month etc.?


Thanks,


Grumpy Dave









How to remove something from Download folder?

Dave
 

Hello,


Win 10 has Daily, Weekly and Monthly Sections when the Download folder is opened.


I would like to remove these sections, and just have all files in this folder sort according to how I have it set, when this folder is opened.


Anyone know how to remove these section titles, for Today, Yesterday, last week, last month etc.?


Thanks,


Grumpy Dave

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