Date   

Re: NVDA is improved!

g melconian <gmelconian619@...>
 

So how does it perform in zoom.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ann
Parsons
Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2020 4:15 AM
To: techtalk@groups.io
Subject: [TechTalk] NVDA is improved!

Hi all,

I used to have to switch to a different screen reader when I wanted to use
the BARD Express program because NVDA wouldn't read the entire anotation. I
also used to have to switch when doing anything having to do with lists
because NVDA would continually tell me the top item in the list before it
would voice the current one. This was annoying.

I find now, after the recent update, that both these problems have been
resolved! I'm a happy camper and I'm using NVDA almost exclusively.
Oh, and BTW, I like the way it behaves in Zoom!

Ann P.

--
Ann K. Parsons
Portal Tutoring
EMAIL: akp@sero.email
Author of The Demmies: http://www.dldbooks.com/annparsons/
Portal Tutoring web site: http://www.portaltutoring.info
Skype: Putertutor

"All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost."


Re: NVDA is improved!

g melconian <gmelconian619@...>
 

Thast true. I have been relearning NVDA as I played with it in the past.


Re: 5g and me

g melconian <gmelconian619@...>
 

I'm in total agreement.that is one upgrade that i do to all my machines whether that bea desktop or laptop. Always opt for the ssd over the spinning drives.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Norman
Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2020 7:01 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

Hello.

I'd say both viewpoints being expressed in this thread are correct given the perspective they are coming from.

Having people think before posting on social media would be a very good thing. However, arguing that a slower computer might make that more likely seems a little suspect to me given that most social media posting is done off phones and tablets.


> But I don't think it is relevant that you can't know what it is like to use an SSD drive


O yes it is. I would have said the same thing years ago but the
difference in over all performance is very noticeable.


> I'm saying that I wouldn't spend fifty dollars or more for something
I don't care about and that wouldn't affect, in any meaningful way, how
I use my computer.


That's your oppinion, and you have a right to that oppinion. However, my
oppinion is the exact opposite, i will and have spent an extra 50
dollars to have my ssd.



With that having been said, we all have a right to use our computers as
we see fit and spend whatever amount of money on them we want to. We
also have a right to make recommendations to others on how we would
build a computer for them or what they should get. You can make your
recommendation for the cheaper route and i can make mine for the more
expensive one. In the end it's up to the person who asked the question
as to which person's recommendations he wants to follow.


HTH.



On 10/17/2020 9:41 AM, Gene wrote:
Even if I used Windows 10, that has nothing to do with drives unless
I get a computer with a drive. But I don't think it is relevant that
you can't know what it is like to use an SSD drive until you do I
except that if you know, you will have the experience to help base
your choice on. If I can have that experience, without spending a
significant amount of money to have it, fine. I don't know what the
expense is now and if it is small, then it may not matter. I'm saying
that I wouldn't spend fifty dollars or more for something I don't care
about and that wouldn't affect, in any meaningful way, how I use my
computer.

Also, in some cases, maybe a little slowness maybe an advantage.
People rush so quickly from one article or post in social media to
another that they may not have time to think properly about what they
read. They may be so involved in rushing and reading that they get a
certain rush. It is a cliché today, but a true one to discuss the
lessening of attention spans. Maybe having a slower computer, as I
used for awhile, gives them more time to relax and think. I'm not
taking a pro or con position on that. I'm simply pointing out that
the unquestioned assumption that the more speed is better should be
questioned.

Even if I had the experience of using an SSD drive, I would still use
a mechanical drive if there was a significant cost difference. What I
do, most of the time, surfing, listening to streams, e-mail,
occasionally working on a document in a word processor, none of these
things are cases where a few seconds matter and the activity itself
takes up almost all of the time while doing it. If someone wants the
emotional satisfaction of having an almost instant response, fine.
Most people don't know the emotional feeling of driving a race car.
That doesn't mean they shouldn't have a typical car. They don't need
to know the feelingg to make a decision based on how they will use it.

The drive question has nothing to do with Windows version, it has to
do with speed.

Also, the reason I discuss this topic when it comes up is so that
others will see different opinions and be able to decide which
arguments they think make more sense. Of course, the individual will
decide, but arguments and discussion may be important in some people
making a decision.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: chris judge
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 11:21 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

I find it amusing that this topic pops up every so often. We kick it
around for a week or so, then it just dies out with no resolution.
Personally I have no interest in what others spend their money on. I
don't drive and never will, thus I have none of the expenses a driver
has.
Every three or four years I treat myself to a new computer, and I
usually buy a fairly powerful beast. Last year I chose an i10
processor with 16 gig of ram and a 512 sshd, as well as a 2 TB
mechanical drive for data. Did I need all that? As N adult the only
person who can, and should be answering that question is me. I would
also like to state in closing that those who still believe there is no
significant difference between a solid state drive and a mechanical
one simply doesn't know what he/she is talking about, because if you
have ever experienced the difference you would know, and while windows
10 runs find with 8 gig of ram even while running a screen reader, it
runs better with 16. I know because I have both. Gene, I find you like
to quote other sources when forming your opinion on things. Since you
are still on windows 7, don't you think it's time to join the majority
of us and update your technology experiences?



Chris Judge


-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of
Carolyn Arnold
Sent: October 16, 2020 6:59 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

It sounds like we have different computer needs and purposes, and so
we get what suits us. One does not work for all, which is why there is
a variety.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io [mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io] On
Behalf Of enes saribas
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 5:22 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

It isn't like highway racing Its like buying a 50 dollar work chair
instead of a much more comfortable 500 dollar one or so, which you
will sit in for 10 hours. You will curse yourself for the few hundred
you didn't spend because of the annoying lags, absence of features etc
that are standard on premium machines.

On 10/16/2020 6:44 AM, Gene wrote:
If you aren't an ordinary user and your comments may not apply to them
that should be specified in your comments. Also, if these defects are
so terrible, please explain the favorable reviews I found. I simply
don't believe that chincy, fall apart, or severely defective products
are generally produced. That's an excellent way to alienate a lot of
users and get a bad reputation that may taint the whole line,
including more expensive computers among users.

I can't comment on your individual experiences but at the same time,
logic dicctates, as well as the large number of favorable reviews that
can be found for machines in the six to seven hundred dollar range and
the occasional chea[per machine, that your generalizations are
incorrect.

Three or four hundred dollars is a lot of money for a lot of people
and buying a thousand dollar or more machine for a lot of people is
like buying a racing car when you will be doing mostly highway driving
and neighborhood driving.

We'll see what other people have to say.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 6:11 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

Hi Gene,

I am not an ordinary user. When I purchase a computer, I will not
settle for anything less than the best. This system, while still able
to run browsers and regular websites ok, struggles and crashes freezes
when running large websites. The difference in processor technology
reached a critically dramatic point when I thhought replacing this was
a good option. Every component on my new machine should at least
provide a 100% improvement or more, even ram speeds, 1600 vs 3200.

Flaws on laptops on that price range are usually intolerable. A cheap
case will not cool properly, and will bend or warp easily. For
example, my laptop's plastic yields under the DVD drive. Cooling isn't
fixable with a cooling pad. Unfortunately with the focus on
portability cooling is taking a back seat with laptops. If fans are
too small for the thermals, or if vents are too small, that throttles
down the processor.
For sighted people, the screens of such machines are terrible in
quality. And a USB keyboard adds unneeded bulk to laptops. Look at a
list of best laptops on any sight, and you won't see any machines in
your price range that make those lists. Here is an article which
describes why it makes sense to pay for a better laptop.

https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/dont-be-so-cheap-five-reasons-
you-should-spend-more-on-your-next-laptop/



On 10/16/2020 5:53 AM, Gene wrote:
Few ports won't matter with hubs available and many people may well
not need more than the ports offered. Keyboards, I don't know how
serious a problem that is. My lapptop, I don't know if it is in the
minority, as a very nice keyboard with large keys and a nice feel.
While a keyboard that is more difficult or unpleasant to use than it
should be would be an annoyance, at least when used at home, and
laptops these days often replace desktops, its easy enough to use a
USB keyboard. If this is a problem with many laptops, it is hardly a
major flaw and hardly rises to the level justifying spending hundreds
of dollars more to solve unless you use the laptop portably some or
much of the time and you can't find a portable keyboard that
satisfies your needs. Cooling? If you are talking about laptops,
the person can use a cooling pad. Not a serious problem at all.

I don't know what problems you are referring to by material design.
I'll look at the page, but the objections you have discussed don't
justify spending more on a machine unless you want to use the laptop
while away from home and a solution to a flaw makes its use
unreasonably inconvenient, something I think won't happen with most
of the flaws you have discussed. Then, too, people who live anywhere
near a computer store or Walmart or Best Buy or other such stores can
inspect computers in person. And there are always user reviews and
reviews in computer magazines such as the best laptops for 2020 and
other reviews such as the best laptops for 2020 costing under this or
that amount of money. And there are lists like this, good places to
ask what machines people are using and for evaluations or to ask
about a specific machine or machines you are interested in.

In short, you can pick the flaw that either won't matter to you or
will be easy to work around, given how you use the computer or you
can try to find one without such flaws and I would think some
computers without them perhaps many, if you look, can be found.

While your objection is interesting because it leads to a discussion
of the ways to find a good computer, it doesn't justify spending more
money for the majority of users.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 3:10 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

Hi Gene,

Systems in that price range today have major flaws, iether few ports,
cooling, keyboard, mouse, material design. You can view notebookcheck
and similar technology sites, and read reviews for systems in
different price brackets, and all of those systems will have their
flaws mentioned. Whether these flaws matter though depends on the
flaw or person.

On 10/15/2020 9:04 PM, Gene wrote:
And so are laptops. Your information is wrong. I bought a laptop
about nine years ago, and certainly you would get more power for the
same price now, for about 480 dollars. It has worked very well. It
is not compromised. It doesn't have defects.

And no one said a 500 dollar computer is good for everyone. I'm not
talking about gamers or power users. I'm talking about the majority
of Internet users who stream, surf, use a word processor, record
audio, and do other tasks that are not particularly demanding.


Gene
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 8:44 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

Just because you may consider a system adequate for your own needs
doesn't mean it is for is for everyone. A system like that would
have major compremises. For clerification, I am talking about laptop
prices, desktops in that price range may in fact be midrange. What I
am saying is a minimum system for anyone should have a 6 core or so
CPU, 8 gb or
16 gb of dual channel ram, an I5processor etc.

On 10/15/2020 7:08 PM, Monte Single wrote:
Hi list,
: enes sarıbaş thinks a 500 dollar computer/laptop is less than
adequate for the average user.
He is not the first person on the list to express such thoughts.
The one time I spent more than that for a computer was for the
first one I purchased; that was in the last millennium.
If I spent 500 u s dollars on a computer today, it would be built
with quality parts and be more than adequate for the average
computer user's needs.
: enes sarıbaş go forth and conquer, spend the big bucks.
Hopefully it will stimulate the economy.



-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf
Of Gene
Sent: October 15, 2020 5:29 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

That simply is not true. A lot of people have machines in the five
hundred dollar range and they work fine.

And five hundred dollar machines aren't just barely competent
machines.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 4:14 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

No, I would not buy a 500 dollar machine. In fact, I would exclude
machines below a certain build quality as a matter of principle. Is
saving every little penny really worth it for a device people use
12 hours a day or more? possibly? Those machines usually have more
than one major flaw, and have barebone specs. I think a power user
should get a pc above the 1000 dollar range, and a regular user, if
they can aford it should go around 700-800. The difference between
an entry level, and even midrange computer is very apparent in
build quality, as well as components. A midrange system will
probably have one or two important flaws, but a budget system will
have three or more, iether bad keyboard, cheap material, poor
cooling, etc.

On 10/15/2020 7:15 AM, Gene wrote:
And I suspect you spent over a thousand dollars to do what a five
hundred dollar computer can do, less if on sale ormanufacturer
refurbished. I don't know enough technically to discuss some of
your technical points, but I'll say the following:
The advice I see from computer advisors is that for the majority
of people, purchasing a machine somewhere in the five hundred
dollar range will meet their needs. And even if memory
requirements have gone up for some programs, they haven't gone up
nearly enough that more than 8GB of ram is recommended for the
majority of users. That is the recommendation and it has been
for years.

A little money here, a little money there, a more powerful
processor, and pretty soon, you are spending five hundred dollars
or more than you need to and gambling that your machine will last
far longer than the generally agreed on length for reliable
service, five years. I think it is a very bad gamble, not because
the machine won't last longer, it may well do so, but you are
spending a lot more money now for performance parameters that will
be much less expensive when you replace the computer. And the
typical user, buying a machine around the five hundred dollar
range today, unless their uses change radically, won't have
problems that will require a new machine probably for the life of
the current one.

And what about technological changes itself? If you bought a
machine in the Windows 7 days that was future proofed, in your
opinion at that time, it might not run Windows 10 now. My
understanding is, and if I'm wrong, I'm sure I will be corrected,
that a lot of Windows 7 machines won't run Windows 10 because
Microsoft now requires that different processors be used.

While I don't think that sort of thing will happen if one buys a
machine now for use seven or ten years into the future and are
attempting to future proof it, you are again gambling that newer
technologies wohn't come along that will render your computer less
useable, no matter how you future proof it now.

Gene.
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 6:27 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

This isn't correct. Browsers, and other day to day applications
even, dramatically have increased ram usage, as well as CPU power.
For example, Zoom will only let you blur the background of video
if you have a quad core processor. If you buy a dual core as
opposed to a quad core processor for example, it will struggle at
even the most basic of tasks, and in 5 years, or even in a few
years, programas even screen readers will begin to lag. This
happened with my core I5 4200M.
I thought a dual core was ok, though this was a system gifted to me.
Had I been choosing my own system then, I would've gone for an I7,
and now, this dual core is not even good enough for browsing.
Large websites will freeze it and even when I had it, intensive
apps like finereader will lag significantly independant of ram.
This is exactly I future proofed my next laptop, with a 1tb SSD,
32 gb of ram, and an
r7 4800H processor from AMD, with a 4.2 GHZ boost across all cores.
This should be powerful enough to run anything conceivable in the
next
5 or so years, except maybe AI workloads.
On 10/15/2020 6:07 AM, Gene wrote:
I've seen others, and I believe you, too, make the future proof
argument for buying a more powerful computer than the person's
anticipated needs because it will be useful longer because you
never know when your needs will change. I've always thought such
arguments were not good ones. For one thing, a lot of people will
continue to use computers in about the same ways as now and if
they do use them in more demanding ways, those will not likely
tax the computer if they buy a computer that isn't just barely
powerful enough to do what they want.

Also, technology continues to become more powerful and cost less.
So,
in five years, the projected reliable life of a computer, you
will be able to buy one to meet your needs then for less money
than you are paying now. In addition, though it’s a gamble, many
computers last more than five years, many significantly more.
Every dollar you overspend to be future proofed that you didn't
need because your needs didn't change and all the extra power of
your computer remains unused is increasingly wasted, the longer
your computer lasts.

It makes much more sense to buy a computer that is powerful
enough to meet your current needs well if you don't anticipate
major changes in how you will use your computer and are
reasonably confident that you won't do things in future that will
exceed the ability of the computer.

Spending one-thousand dollars to future proof a machine, just in
case, maybe you use your machine much differently in the future,
when you could spend five hundred dollars today and three hundred
dollars in fived or seven or eight years for another machine that
you would probably use in similar ways as you do now or not much,
is a bad idea.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2020 9:27 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me



Hi Brian,

Just for clerification, I have confirmed 5g signals do exist in
my area for my network. Even without the massive bandwidth, the
lower latency itself will probably result in better quality
improvements.
Also, all versions of the IPhone by default include 5g.


On 10/14/2020 9:18 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 10:11 PM, enes sarıbaş wrote:
One reason, future proofing, I want to get the highest end
version of the IPhone 12, though 5g isn't very wiedespread now,
it will be in three years or so.- I am at a loss as to how doing
this, now, squares with your own earlier assertion, "I think 5g
is more significant for fixed wireless than smartphones."

Going to a 5G device now, when it is obscenely expensive, and
where the ability to exploit 5G is limited to a very few
locations, seems to me to be a supreme waste.

And 3 years is an eternity in the world of technology, and
smartphones in particular, and what's Apple's flagship now, will
be mid-range in 3 years, and much cheaper.

Going to a 5G smartphone now, unless you live in a major
metropolitan area, is locking your money up in a frozen asset you
cannot even use for its intended purpose.


























































Re: Needing a Command to read if a letter is Capitalized

Damien Garwood <damien@...>
 

Hi Dave,
NVDA has two options for differentiating between lower and upper case.
You can either have the voice change pitch, or you can have a beep. Or you can have both.
Once you've selected that option, you can simply arrow to the letter and it will do its thing.
Not sure how it works in braille, if at all. But again, beeps should work in that case as well.
Hope that helps.
Cheers,
Damien.

On 17/10/2020 08:40 pm, Dave wrote:
Hello,
I've looked through the Jaws documentation, and I must have just missed
it.  But what is the Command to read if a letter under the Cursor is a
Capitalized letter?
I have found how to find out the size, and the font, but not whether or
not it is in Caps.
did call Jaws, but their Tech Support was unavailable due to a Network
issue on their end.
Or if you happen to know the same command for NVDA that would work for
me too.
Thanks,
Grumpy Dave


Needing a Command to read if a letter is Capitalized

Dave
 

Hello,


I've looked through the Jaws documentation, and I must have just missed
it.  But what is the Command to read if a letter under the Cursor is a
Capitalized letter?


I have found how to find out the size, and the font, but not whether or
not it is in Caps.


did call Jaws, but their Tech Support was unavailable due to a Network
issue on their end.


Or if you happen to know the same command for NVDA that would work for
me too.


Thanks,


Grumpy Dave


NVDA is Growing up

Dave
 

Yes, I too now use NVDA probably 80 percent of the time.  Still have
JAWS, and probably will have since the yearly upgrades are not super
expensive.


JAWS still reads one program I use all the time better than NVDA.


But to Write emails and do other things, I find NVDA works quite well.


I use Excel, and NVDA works better for me than JAWS.


Especially if you are creating Spread Sheets and writing Formulas.


NVDA has been on my System for a number of years now, mostly used in
case Window Eyes, or then Jaws might fail.  In the last year, I started
having issues with JAWS, and their Tech people couldn't figure out the
problem, so NVDA has become my Go To Screen Reader program for the daily
stuff.


I use the voice named David.


Grumpy Dave


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Sharon Hooley
 

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Re: NVDA is improved!

David Goldfield <david.goldfield@...>
 

NVDA officially began releasing alpha builds in 2006. I began using it in the summer of 2009 and its first official release was 2009.1, which I believed was released during the Thanksgiving weekend of that year. I felt that even those early betas in 2009 were still far more robust than Narrator was during that time. Browse mode worked quite well and most of the single letter navigation commands, such as H for heading, b for button, etc., were implemented, making the transition from JAWS extremely painless.

David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist
JAWS Certified, 2019

WWW.DavidGoldfield.org

On 10/17/2020 1:39 PM, Ron Canazzi wrote:
Hi Group,

Ah Yes, I also started using NVDA a year or so after it's first release.  When was that now: maybe fifteen years ago.  I don't actually remember.  Back then, it was useful when JAWS crashed to navigate around the screen in Windows Explorer/My Computer and maybe leave a few notes in Notepad: nothing more. As time went on--particularly around 2012, it was around 75% as good as JAWS. It still had some issue with the browsers and major issue with the Microsoft Office Suite.  Slowly but surely, most of these focus and accessibility issues have been eliminated in the browsers (actually I think it works somewhat better than JAWS in the Chrome based browser.) and now, about the only thing that I use where it doesn't work as well as JAWS in some limited fashion is the Microsoft Office Suite.  If you don't have to use MS Office suite regularly, in my opinion, there is absolutely no need to purchase any other screen reader.  You might want to have another commercial version demo such as JAWS on your system for the rare instances that something might not work too well.  It's always good to stay somewhat flexible on that issue.  (My screen reader right or wrong is a bit over the top.)

In any case, hats off to the development team and all the add on developers as well for creating a truly great, free product.


On 10/17/2020 7:24 AM, Victor wrote:
I started using NVDA shortly after it’s first release. I did so because I wanted to support a free screen reader in the hopes that it would eventually be as good as jaws. Back then, I wasn’t sure that it ever would be. Thankfully, it is definitely as good as jaws and it may turn out to be better than jaws someday soon. I’m glad you’re enjoying the latest version.

Blessings,

Victor
On Oct 17, 2020, at 4:15 AM, Ann Parsons <akp@sero.email> wrote:

Hi all,

I used to have to switch to a different screen reader when I wanted to use the BARD Express program because NVDA wouldn't read the entire anotation.  I also used to have to switch when doing anything having to do with lists because NVDA would continually tell me the top item in the list before it would voice the current one.  This was annoying.

I find now, after the recent update, that both these problems have been resolved!  I'm a happy camper and I'm using NVDA almost exclusively.  Oh, and BTW, I like the way it behaves in Zoom!

Ann P.

--
Ann K. Parsons
Portal Tutoring
EMAIL:  akp@sero.email
Author of The Demmies: https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dldbooks.com%2Fannparsons%2F&;data=04%7C01%7C%7C5a26dcc70a604f3795ec08d872c40d97%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637385533647011980%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&amp;sdata=uwndRs5uF4DF0IJAlvz71sYW29ALTq3L2AocisvAROQ%3D&amp;reserved=0
Portal Tutoring web site: https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.portaltutoring.info%2F&;data=04%7C01%7C%7C5a26dcc70a604f3795ec08d872c40d97%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637385533647011980%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&amp;sdata=veV5%2B3qHIziH6gDVoUnPtFeI1Xy6989B3yNTy01zJPo%3D&amp;reserved=0
Skype: Putertutor

"All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost."







Re: NVDA is improved!

Ron Canazzi
 

Hi Group,

Ah Yes, I also started using NVDA a year or so after it's first release.  When was that now: maybe fifteen years ago.  I don't actually remember.  Back then, it was useful when JAWS crashed to navigate around the screen in Windows Explorer/My Computer and maybe leave a few notes in Notepad: nothing more. As time went on--particularly around 2012, it was around 75% as good as JAWS. It still had some issue with the browsers and major issue with the Microsoft Office Suite.  Slowly but surely, most of these focus and accessibility issues have been eliminated in the browsers (actually I think it works somewhat better than JAWS in the Chrome based browser.) and now, about the only thing that I use where it doesn't work as well as JAWS in some limited fashion is the Microsoft Office Suite.  If you don't have to use MS Office suite regularly, in my opinion, there is absolutely no need to purchase any other screen reader.  You might want to have another commercial version demo such as JAWS on your system for the rare instances that something might not work too well.  It's always good to stay somewhat flexible on that issue.  (My screen reader right or wrong is a bit over the top.)

In any case, hats off to the development team and all the add on developers as well for creating a truly great, free product.

On 10/17/2020 7:24 AM, Victor wrote:
I started using NVDA shortly after it’s first release. I did so because I wanted to support a free screen reader in the hopes that it would eventually be as good as jaws. Back then, I wasn’t sure that it ever would be. Thankfully, it is definitely as good as jaws and it may turn out to be better than jaws someday soon. I’m glad you’re enjoying the latest version.

Blessings,

Victor
On Oct 17, 2020, at 4:15 AM, Ann Parsons <akp@sero.email> wrote:

Hi all,

I used to have to switch to a different screen reader when I wanted to use the BARD Express program because NVDA wouldn't read the entire anotation. I also used to have to switch when doing anything having to do with lists because NVDA would continually tell me the top item in the list before it would voice the current one. This was annoying.

I find now, after the recent update, that both these problems have been resolved! I'm a happy camper and I'm using NVDA almost exclusively. Oh, and BTW, I like the way it behaves in Zoom!

Ann P.

--
Ann K. Parsons
Portal Tutoring
EMAIL: akp@sero.email
Author of The Demmies: http://www.dldbooks.com/annparsons/
Portal Tutoring web site: http://www.portaltutoring.info
Skype: Putertutor

"All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost."





--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Re: for the siriusXM users

Danny Park
 

If you go to the discovery tab in the SiriusXM app then click on the all channels button it will give you a list of all of the channels that are available.


Danny

On 10/15/2020 7:23 PM, Troy Burnham wrote:
Hi all,

While in the car I've been hearing a channel advertised on siriusXM that sounds like it has 60's and 70's music and maybe more but I never hear the name of it. Does anybody know what I'm talking about? I want to see if I can listen to the channel with my online subscription at home.

Thanks.

Troy






Re: 5g and me

Rob Hudson
 

What I've noticed is that if you have both an SSD and a mechanical drive, there is no speed difference in startup. This is because, as was pointed out earlier, you're only as fast as the slowest link in the chain.
The speed diffence is also not noticeable if you have slower ram.
Also, the speed difference of an SSD is only noticeable if you have sata 3 ports. And not all SSDs are created equal, either.
So an SSD is not always, every time, faster.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lenron" <lenron93@gmail.com>
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2020 09:08:12 -0500
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

I am going to have to go with the crowd that is all for the ssd. It
makes things so much faster, and it's really worth it. The start up
time is amazing. I wouldn't buy a computer with out one these days,
and if I did I would for sure upgrade it just to have one. Speaking
for ram for me 8 gb ram works on my laptop, but I for sure love
having the access to the 16 I do on my desktop. The things I do on my
desktop make that extra 8 gb needed for sure. I have been even
thinking about adding another 16 gb of ram there, but I think it will
be much more fun to put together another machine.

On 10/17/20, Norman <lists@thekingstech.com> wrote:
Hello.

I'd say both viewpoints being expressed in this thread are correct given
the perspective they are coming from.

Having people think before posting on social media would be a very good
thing. However, arguing that a slower computer might make that more
likely seems a little suspect to me given that most social media posting
is done off phones and tablets.


> But I don't think it is relevant that you can't know what it is like
to use an SSD drive


O yes it is. I would have said the same thing years ago but the
difference in over all performance is very noticeable.


> I'm saying that I wouldn't spend fifty dollars or more for something
I don't care about and that wouldn't affect, in any meaningful way, how
I use my computer.


That's your oppinion, and you have a right to that oppinion. However, my
oppinion is the exact opposite, i will and have spent an extra 50
dollars to have my ssd.



With that having been said, we all have a right to use our computers as
we see fit and spend whatever amount of money on them we want to. We
also have a right to make recommendations to others on how we would
build a computer for them or what they should get. You can make your
recommendation for the cheaper route and i can make mine for the more
expensive one. In the end it's up to the person who asked the question
as to which person's recommendations he wants to follow.


HTH.



On 10/17/2020 9:41 AM, Gene wrote:
Even if I used Windows 10, that has nothing to do with drives unless
I get a computer with a drive. But I don't think it is relevant that
you can't know what it is like to use an SSD drive until you do I
except that if you know, you will have the experience to help base
your choice on. If I can have that experience, without spending a
significant amount of money to have it, fine. I don't know what the
expense is now and if it is small, then it may not matter. I'm saying
that I wouldn't spend fifty dollars or more for something I don't care
about and that wouldn't affect, in any meaningful way, how I use my
computer.

Also, in some cases, maybe a little slowness maybe an advantage.
People rush so quickly from one article or post in social media to
another that they may not have time to think properly about what they
read. They may be so involved in rushing and reading that they get a
certain rush. It is a clich today, but a true one to discuss the
lessening of attention spans. Maybe having a slower computer, as I
used for awhile, gives them more time to relax and think. I'm not
taking a pro or con position on that. I'm simply pointing out that
the unquestioned assumption that the more speed is better should be
questioned.

Even if I had the experience of using an SSD drive, I would still use
a mechanical drive if there was a significant cost difference. What I
do, most of the time, surfing, listening to streams, e-mail,
occasionally working on a document in a word processor, none of these
things are cases where a few seconds matter and the activity itself
takes up almost all of the time while doing it. If someone wants the
emotional satisfaction of having an almost instant response, fine.
Most people don't know the emotional feeling of driving a race car.
That doesn't mean they shouldn't have a typical car. They don't need
to know the feelingg to make a decision based on how they will use it.

The drive question has nothing to do with Windows version, it has to
do with speed.

Also, the reason I discuss this topic when it comes up is so that
others will see different opinions and be able to decide which
arguments they think make more sense. Of course, the individual will
decide, but arguments and discussion may be important in some people
making a decision.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: chris judge
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 11:21 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

I find it amusing that this topic pops up every so often. We kick it
around for a week or so, then it just dies out with no resolution.
Personally I have no interest in what others spend their money on. I
don't drive and never will, thus I have none of the expenses a driver
has.
Every three or four years I treat myself to a new computer, and I
usually buy a fairly powerful beast. Last year I chose an i10
processor with 16 gig of ram and a 512 sshd, as well as a 2 TB
mechanical drive for data. Did I need all that? As N adult the only
person who can, and should be answering that question is me. I would
also like to state in closing that those who still believe there is no
significant difference between a solid state drive and a mechanical
one simply doesn't know what he/she is talking about, because if you
have ever experienced the difference you would know, and while windows
10 runs find with 8 gig of ram even while running a screen reader, it
runs better with 16. I know because I have both. Gene, I find you like
to quote other sources when forming your opinion on things. Since you
are still on windows 7, don't you think it's time to join the majority
of us and update your technology experiences?



Chris Judge


-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of
Carolyn Arnold
Sent: October 16, 2020 6:59 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

It sounds like we have different computer needs and purposes, and so
we get what suits us. One does not work for all, which is why there is
a variety.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io [mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io] On
Behalf Of enes saribas
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 5:22 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

It isn't like highway racing Its like buying a 50 dollar work chair
instead of a much more comfortable 500 dollar one or so, which you
will sit in for 10 hours. You will curse yourself for the few hundred
you didn't spend because of the annoying lags, absence of features etc
that are standard on premium machines.

On 10/16/2020 6:44 AM, Gene wrote:
If you aren't an ordinary user and your comments may not apply to them
that should be specified in your comments. Also, if these defects are
so terrible, please explain the favorable reviews I found. I simply
don't believe that chincy, fall apart, or severely defective products
are generally produced. That's an excellent way to alienate a lot of
users and get a bad reputation that may taint the whole line,
including more expensive computers among users.

I can't comment on your individual experiences but at the same time,
logic dicctates, as well as the large number of favorable reviews that
can be found for machines in the six to seven hundred dollar range and
the occasional chea[per machine, that your generalizations are
incorrect.

Three or four hundred dollars is a lot of money for a lot of people
and buying a thousand dollar or more machine for a lot of people is
like buying a racing car when you will be doing mostly highway driving
and neighborhood driving.

We'll see what other people have to say.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: enes saribas
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 6:11 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

Hi Gene,

I am not an ordinary user. When I purchase a computer, I will not
settle for anything less than the best. This system, while still able
to run browsers and regular websites ok, struggles and crashes freezes
when running large websites. The difference in processor technology
reached a critically dramatic point when I thhought replacing this was
a good option. Every component on my new machine should at least
provide a 100% improvement or more, even ram speeds, 1600 vs 3200.

Flaws on laptops on that price range are usually intolerable. A cheap
case will not cool properly, and will bend or warp easily. For
example, my laptop's plastic yields under the DVD drive. Cooling isn't
fixable with a cooling pad. Unfortunately with the focus on
portability cooling is taking a back seat with laptops. If fans are
too small for the thermals, or if vents are too small, that throttles
down the processor.
For sighted people, the screens of such machines are terrible in
quality. And a USB keyboard adds unneeded bulk to laptops. Look at a
list of best laptops on any sight, and you won't see any machines in
your price range that make those lists. Here is an article which
describes why it makes sense to pay for a better laptop.

https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/dont-be-so-cheap-five-reasons-
you-should-spend-more-on-your-next-laptop/



On 10/16/2020 5:53 AM, Gene wrote:
Few ports won't matter with hubs available and many people may well
not need more than the ports offered. Keyboards, I don't know how
serious a problem that is. My lapptop, I don't know if it is in the
minority, as a very nice keyboard with large keys and a nice feel.
While a keyboard that is more difficult or unpleasant to use than it
should be would be an annoyance, at least when used at home, and
laptops these days often replace desktops, its easy enough to use a
USB keyboard. If this is a problem with many laptops, it is hardly a
major flaw and hardly rises to the level justifying spending hundreds
of dollars more to solve unless you use the laptop portably some or
much of the time and you can't find a portable keyboard that
satisfies your needs. Cooling? If you are talking about laptops,
the person can use a cooling pad. Not a serious problem at all.

I don't know what problems you are referring to by material design.
I'll look at the page, but the objections you have discussed don't
justify spending more on a machine unless you want to use the laptop
while away from home and a solution to a flaw makes its use
unreasonably inconvenient, something I think won't happen with most
of the flaws you have discussed. Then, too, people who live anywhere
near a computer store or Walmart or Best Buy or other such stores can
inspect computers in person. And there are always user reviews and
reviews in computer magazines such as the best laptops for 2020 and
other reviews such as the best laptops for 2020 costing under this or
that amount of money. And there are lists like this, good places to
ask what machines people are using and for evaluations or to ask
about a specific machine or machines you are interested in.

In short, you can pick the flaw that either won't matter to you or
will be easy to work around, given how you use the computer or you
can try to find one without such flaws and I would think some
computers without them perhaps many, if you look, can be found.

While your objection is interesting because it leads to a discussion
of the ways to find a good computer, it doesn't justify spending more
money for the majority of users.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: enes saribas
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 3:10 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

Hi Gene,

Systems in that price range today have major flaws, iether few ports,
cooling, keyboard, mouse, material design. You can view notebookcheck
and similar technology sites, and read reviews for systems in
different price brackets, and all of those systems will have their
flaws mentioned. Whether these flaws matter though depends on the
flaw or person.

On 10/15/2020 9:04 PM, Gene wrote:
And so are laptops. Your information is wrong. I bought a laptop
about nine years ago, and certainly you would get more power for the
same price now, for about 480 dollars. It has worked very well. It
is not compromised. It doesn't have defects.

And no one said a 500 dollar computer is good for everyone. I'm not
talking about gamers or power users. I'm talking about the majority
of Internet users who stream, surf, use a word processor, record
audio, and do other tasks that are not particularly demanding.


Gene
-----Original Message----- From: enes saribas
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 8:44 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

Just because you may consider a system adequate for your own needs
doesn't mean it is for is for everyone. A system like that would
have major compremises. For clerification, I am talking about laptop
prices, desktops in that price range may in fact be midrange. What I
am saying is a minimum system for anyone should have a 6 core or so
CPU, 8 gb or
16 gb of dual channel ram, an I5processor etc.

On 10/15/2020 7:08 PM, Monte Single wrote:
Hi list,
: enes saribas thinks a 500 dollar computer/laptop is less than
adequate for the average user.
He is not the first person on the list to express such thoughts.
The one time I spent more than that for a computer was for the
first one I purchased; that was in the last millennium.
If I spent 500 u s dollars on a computer today, it would be built
with quality parts and be more than adequate for the average
computer user's needs.
: enes saribas go forth and conquer, spend the big bucks.
Hopefully it will stimulate the economy.



-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf
Of Gene
Sent: October 15, 2020 5:29 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

That simply is not true. A lot of people have machines in the five
hundred dollar range and they work fine.

And five hundred dollar machines aren't just barely competent
machines.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: enes saribas
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 4:14 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

No, I would not buy a 500 dollar machine. In fact, I would exclude
machines below a certain build quality as a matter of principle. Is
saving every little penny really worth it for a device people use
12 hours a day or more? possibly? Those machines usually have more
than one major flaw, and have barebone specs. I think a power user
should get a pc above the 1000 dollar range, and a regular user, if
they can aford it should go around 700-800. The difference between
an entry level, and even midrange computer is very apparent in
build quality, as well as components. A midrange system will
probably have one or two important flaws, but a budget system will
have three or more, iether bad keyboard, cheap material, poor
cooling, etc.

On 10/15/2020 7:15 AM, Gene wrote:
And I suspect you spent over a thousand dollars to do what a five
hundred dollar computer can do, less if on sale ormanufacturer
refurbished. I don't know enough technically to discuss some of
your technical points, but I'll say the following:
The advice I see from computer advisors is that for the majority
of people, purchasing a machine somewhere in the five hundred
dollar range will meet their needs. And even if memory
requirements have gone up for some programs, they haven't gone up
nearly enough that more than 8GB of ram is recommended for the
majority of users. That is the recommendation and it has been
for years.

A little money here, a little money there, a more powerful
processor, and pretty soon, you are spending five hundred dollars
or more than you need to and gambling that your machine will last
far longer than the generally agreed on length for reliable
service, five years. I think it is a very bad gamble, not because
the machine won't last longer, it may well do so, but you are
spending a lot more money now for performance parameters that will
be much less expensive when you replace the computer. And the
typical user, buying a machine around the five hundred dollar
range today, unless their uses change radically, won't have
problems that will require a new machine probably for the life of
the current one.

And what about technological changes itself? If you bought a
machine in the Windows 7 days that was future proofed, in your
opinion at that time, it might not run Windows 10 now. My
understanding is, and if I'm wrong, I'm sure I will be corrected,
that a lot of Windows 7 machines won't run Windows 10 because
Microsoft now requires that different processors be used.

While I don't think that sort of thing will happen if one buys a
machine now for use seven or ten years into the future and are
attempting to future proof it, you are again gambling that newer
technologies wohn't come along that will render your computer less
useable, no matter how you future proof it now.

Gene.
-----Original Message----- From: enes saribas
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 6:27 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

This isn't correct. Browsers, and other day to day applications
even, dramatically have increased ram usage, as well as CPU power.
For example, Zoom will only let you blur the background of video
if you have a quad core processor. If you buy a dual core as
opposed to a quad core processor for example, it will struggle at
even the most basic of tasks, and in 5 years, or even in a few
years, programas even screen readers will begin to lag. This
happened with my core I5 4200M.
I thought a dual core was ok, though this was a system gifted to me.
Had I been choosing my own system then, I would've gone for an I7,
and now, this dual core is not even good enough for browsing.
Large websites will freeze it and even when I had it, intensive
apps like finereader will lag significantly independant of ram.
This is exactly I future proofed my next laptop, with a 1tb SSD,
32 gb of ram, and an
r7 4800H processor from AMD, with a 4.2 GHZ boost across all cores.
This should be powerful enough to run anything conceivable in the
next
5 or so years, except maybe AI workloads.
On 10/15/2020 6:07 AM, Gene wrote:
I've seen others, and I believe you, too, make the future proof
argument for buying a more powerful computer than the person's
anticipated needs because it will be useful longer because you
never know when your needs will change. I've always thought such
arguments were not good ones. For one thing, a lot of people will
continue to use computers in about the same ways as now and if
they do use them in more demanding ways, those will not likely
tax the computer if they buy a computer that isn't just barely
powerful enough to do what they want.

Also, technology continues to become more powerful and cost less.
So,
in five years, the projected reliable life of a computer, you
will be able to buy one to meet your needs then for less money
than you are paying now. In addition, though its a gamble, many
computers last more than five years, many significantly more.
Every dollar you overspend to be future proofed that you didn't
need because your needs didn't change and all the extra power of
your computer remains unused is increasingly wasted, the longer
your computer lasts.

It makes much more sense to buy a computer that is powerful
enough to meet your current needs well if you don't anticipate
major changes in how you will use your computer and are
reasonably confident that you won't do things in future that will
exceed the ability of the computer.

Spending one-thousand dollars to future proof a machine, just in
case, maybe you use your machine much differently in the future,
when you could spend five hundred dollars today and three hundred
dollars in fived or seven or eight years for another machine that
you would probably use in similar ways as you do now or not much,
is a bad idea.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: enes saribas
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2020 9:27 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me



Hi Brian,

Just for clerification, I have confirmed 5g signals do exist in
my area for my network. Even without the massive bandwidth, the
lower latency itself will probably result in better quality
improvements.
Also, all versions of the IPhone by default include 5g.


On 10/14/2020 9:18 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 10:11 PM, enes saribas wrote:
One reason, future proofing, I want to get the highest end
version of the IPhone 12, though 5g isn't very wiedespread now,
it will be in three years or so.- I am at a loss as to how doing
this, now, squares with your own earlier assertion, "I think 5g
is more significant for fixed wireless than smartphones."

Going to a 5G device now, when it is obscenely expensive, and
where the ability to exploit 5G is limited to a very few
locations, seems to me to be a supreme waste.

And 3 years is an eternity in the world of technology, and
smartphones in particular, and what's Apple's flagship now, will
be mid-range in 3 years, and much cheaper.

Going to a 5G smartphone now, unless you live in a major
metropolitan area, is locking your money up in a frozen asset you
cannot even use for its intended purpose.






























































--
Lenron Brown
Cell: 985-271-2832
Skype: ron.brown762






Re: 5g and me

Gene
 

I'm a firm believer in the user having different opinions and having information on which to make a decision. That's the main reason I discuss such questions. Of course, I enjoy discussing them as well but that isn't my main reason.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Norman
Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2020 9:01 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

Hello.

I'd say both viewpoints being expressed in this thread are correct given
the perspective they are coming from.

Having people think before posting on social media would be a very good
thing. However, arguing that a slower computer might make that more
likely seems a little suspect to me given that most social media posting
is done off phones and tablets.


But I don't think it is relevant that you can't know what it is like
to use an SSD drive


O yes it is. I would have said the same thing years ago but the
difference in over all performance is very noticeable.


I'm saying that I wouldn't spend fifty dollars or more for something
I don't care about and that wouldn't affect, in any meaningful way, how
I use my computer.


That's your oppinion, and you have a right to that oppinion. However, my
oppinion is the exact opposite, i will and have spent an extra 50
dollars to have my ssd.



With that having been said, we all have a right to use our computers as
we see fit and spend whatever amount of money on them we want to. We
also have a right to make recommendations to others on how we would
build a computer for them or what they should get. You can make your
recommendation for the cheaper route and i can make mine for the more
expensive one. In the end it's up to the person who asked the question
as to which person's recommendations he wants to follow.


HTH.



On 10/17/2020 9:41 AM, Gene wrote:
Even if I used Windows 10, that has nothing to do with drives unless I get a computer with a drive. But I don't think it is relevant that you can't know what it is like to use an SSD drive until you do I except that if you know, you will have the experience to help base your choice on. If I can have that experience, without spending a significant amount of money to have it, fine. I don't know what the expense is now and if it is small, then it may not matter. I'm saying that I wouldn't spend fifty dollars or more for something I don't care about and that wouldn't affect, in any meaningful way, how I use my computer.

Also, in some cases, maybe a little slowness maybe an advantage. People rush so quickly from one article or post in social media to another that they may not have time to think properly about what they read. They may be so involved in rushing and reading that they get a certain rush. It is a cliché today, but a true one to discuss the lessening of attention spans. Maybe having a slower computer, as I used for awhile, gives them more time to relax and think. I'm not taking a pro or con position on that. I'm simply pointing out that the unquestioned assumption that the more speed is better should be questioned.

Even if I had the experience of using an SSD drive, I would still use a mechanical drive if there was a significant cost difference. What I do, most of the time, surfing, listening to streams, e-mail, occasionally working on a document in a word processor, none of these things are cases where a few seconds matter and the activity itself takes up almost all of the time while doing it. If someone wants the emotional satisfaction of having an almost instant response, fine. Most people don't know the emotional feeling of driving a race car. That doesn't mean they shouldn't have a typical car. They don't need to know the feelingg to make a decision based on how they will use it.

The drive question has nothing to do with Windows version, it has to do with speed.

Also, the reason I discuss this topic when it comes up is so that others will see different opinions and be able to decide which arguments they think make more sense. Of course, the individual will decide, but arguments and discussion may be important in some people making a decision.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: chris judge
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 11:21 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

I find it amusing that this topic pops up every so often. We kick it around for a week or so, then it just dies out with no resolution. Personally I have no interest in what others spend their money on. I don't drive and never will, thus I have none of the expenses a driver has.
Every three or four years I treat myself to a new computer, and I usually buy a fairly powerful beast. Last year I chose an i10 processor with 16 gig of ram and a 512 sshd, as well as a 2 TB mechanical drive for data. Did I need all that? As N adult the only person who can, and should be answering that question is me. I would also like to state in closing that those who still believe there is no significant difference between a solid state drive and a mechanical one simply doesn't know what he/she is talking about, because if you have ever experienced the difference you would know, and while windows 10 runs find with 8 gig of ram even while running a screen reader, it runs better with 16. I know because I have both. Gene, I find you like to quote other sources when forming your opinion on things. Since you are still on windows 7, don't you think it's time to join the majority of us and update your technology experiences?



Chris Judge


-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Carolyn Arnold
Sent: October 16, 2020 6:59 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

It sounds like we have different computer needs and purposes, and so we get what suits us. One does not work for all, which is why there is a variety.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io [mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io] On Behalf Of enes saribas
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 5:22 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

It isn't like highway racing Its like buying a 50 dollar work chair instead of a much more comfortable 500 dollar one or so, which you will sit in for 10 hours. You will curse yourself for the few hundred you didn't spend because of the annoying lags, absence of features etc that are standard on premium machines.

On 10/16/2020 6:44 AM, Gene wrote:
If you aren't an ordinary user and your comments may not apply to them
that should be specified in your comments. Also, if these defects are
so terrible, please explain the favorable reviews I found. I simply
don't believe that chincy, fall apart, or severely defective products
are generally produced. That's an excellent way to alienate a lot of
users and get a bad reputation that may taint the whole line,
including more expensive computers among users.

I can't comment on your individual experiences but at the same time,
logic dicctates, as well as the large number of favorable reviews that
can be found for machines in the six to seven hundred dollar range and
the occasional chea[per machine, that your generalizations are incorrect.

Three or four hundred dollars is a lot of money for a lot of people
and buying a thousand dollar or more machine for a lot of people is
like buying a racing car when you will be doing mostly highway driving
and neighborhood driving.

We'll see what other people have to say.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 6:11 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

Hi Gene,

I am not an ordinary user. When I purchase a computer, I will not
settle for anything less than the best. This system, while still able
to run browsers and regular websites ok, struggles and crashes freezes
when running large websites. The difference in processor technology
reached a critically dramatic point when I thhought replacing this was
a good option. Every component on my new machine should at least
provide a 100% improvement or more, even ram speeds, 1600 vs 3200.

Flaws on laptops on that price range are usually intolerable. A cheap
case will not cool properly, and will bend or warp easily. For
example, my laptop's plastic yields under the DVD drive. Cooling isn't
fixable with a cooling pad. Unfortunately with the focus on
portability cooling is taking a back seat with laptops. If fans are
too small for the thermals, or if vents are too small, that throttles down the processor.
For sighted people, the screens of such machines are terrible in
quality. And a USB keyboard adds unneeded bulk to laptops. Look at a
list of best laptops on any sight, and you won't see any machines in
your price range that make those lists. Here is an article which
describes why it makes sense to pay for a better laptop.

https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/dont-be-so-cheap-five-reasons-
you-should-spend-more-on-your-next-laptop/



On 10/16/2020 5:53 AM, Gene wrote:
Few ports won't matter with hubs available and many people may well
not need more than the ports offered. Keyboards, I don't know how
serious a problem that is. My lapptop, I don't know if it is in the
minority, as a very nice keyboard with large keys and a nice feel.
While a keyboard that is more difficult or unpleasant to use than it
should be would be an annoyance, at least when used at home, and
laptops these days often replace desktops, its easy enough to use a
USB keyboard. If this is a problem with many laptops, it is hardly a
major flaw and hardly rises to the level justifying spending hundreds
of dollars more to solve unless you use the laptop portably some or
much of the time and you can't find a portable keyboard that
satisfies your needs. Cooling? If you are talking about laptops,
the person can use a cooling pad. Not a serious problem at all.

I don't know what problems you are referring to by material design.
I'll look at the page, but the objections you have discussed don't
justify spending more on a machine unless you want to use the laptop
while away from home and a solution to a flaw makes its use
unreasonably inconvenient, something I think won't happen with most
of the flaws you have discussed. Then, too, people who live anywhere
near a computer store or Walmart or Best Buy or other such stores can
inspect computers in person. And there are always user reviews and
reviews in computer magazines such as the best laptops for 2020 and
other reviews such as the best laptops for 2020 costing under this or
that amount of money. And there are lists like this, good places to
ask what machines people are using and for evaluations or to ask
about a specific machine or machines you are interested in.

In short, you can pick the flaw that either won't matter to you or
will be easy to work around, given how you use the computer or you
can try to find one without such flaws and I would think some
computers without them perhaps many, if you look, can be found.

While your objection is interesting because it leads to a discussion
of the ways to find a good computer, it doesn't justify spending more
money for the majority of users.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 3:10 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

Hi Gene,

Systems in that price range today have major flaws, iether few ports,
cooling, keyboard, mouse, material design. You can view notebookcheck
and similar technology sites, and read reviews for systems in
different price brackets, and all of those systems will have their
flaws mentioned. Whether these flaws matter though depends on the
flaw or person.

On 10/15/2020 9:04 PM, Gene wrote:
And so are laptops. Your information is wrong. I bought a laptop
about nine years ago, and certainly you would get more power for the
same price now, for about 480 dollars. It has worked very well. It
is not compromised. It doesn't have defects.

And no one said a 500 dollar computer is good for everyone. I'm not
talking about gamers or power users. I'm talking about the majority
of Internet users who stream, surf, use a word processor, record
audio, and do other tasks that are not particularly demanding.


Gene
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 8:44 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

Just because you may consider a system adequate for your own needs
doesn't mean it is for is for everyone. A system like that would
have major compremises. For clerification, I am talking about laptop
prices, desktops in that price range may in fact be midrange. What I
am saying is a minimum system for anyone should have a 6 core or so
CPU, 8 gb or
16 gb of dual channel ram, an I5processor etc.

On 10/15/2020 7:08 PM, Monte Single wrote:
Hi list,
: enes sarıbaş thinks a 500 dollar computer/laptop is less than
adequate for the average user.
He is not the first person on the list to express such thoughts.
The one time I spent more than that for a computer was for the
first one I purchased; that was in the last millennium.
If I spent 500 u s dollars on a computer today, it would be built
with quality parts and be more than adequate for the average
computer user's needs.
: enes sarıbaş go forth and conquer, spend the big bucks.
Hopefully it will stimulate the economy.



-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf
Of Gene
Sent: October 15, 2020 5:29 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

That simply is not true. A lot of people have machines in the five
hundred dollar range and they work fine.

And five hundred dollar machines aren't just barely competent
machines.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 4:14 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

No, I would not buy a 500 dollar machine. In fact, I would exclude
machines below a certain build quality as a matter of principle. Is
saving every little penny really worth it for a device people use
12 hours a day or more? possibly? Those machines usually have more
than one major flaw, and have barebone specs. I think a power user
should get a pc above the 1000 dollar range, and a regular user, if
they can aford it should go around 700-800. The difference between
an entry level, and even midrange computer is very apparent in
build quality, as well as components. A midrange system will
probably have one or two important flaws, but a budget system will
have three or more, iether bad keyboard, cheap material, poor
cooling, etc.

On 10/15/2020 7:15 AM, Gene wrote:
And I suspect you spent over a thousand dollars to do what a five
hundred dollar computer can do, less if on sale ormanufacturer
refurbished. I don't know enough technically to discuss some of
your technical points, but I'll say the following:
The advice I see from computer advisors is that for the majority
of people, purchasing a machine somewhere in the five hundred
dollar range will meet their needs. And even if memory
requirements have gone up for some programs, they haven't gone up
nearly enough that more than 8GB of ram is recommended for the
majority of users. That is the recommendation and it has been for years.

A little money here, a little money there, a more powerful
processor, and pretty soon, you are spending five hundred dollars
or more than you need to and gambling that your machine will last
far longer than the generally agreed on length for reliable
service, five years. I think it is a very bad gamble, not because
the machine won't last longer, it may well do so, but you are
spending a lot more money now for performance parameters that will
be much less expensive when you replace the computer. And the
typical user, buying a machine around the five hundred dollar
range today, unless their uses change radically, won't have
problems that will require a new machine probably for the life of the current one.

And what about technological changes itself? If you bought a
machine in the Windows 7 days that was future proofed, in your
opinion at that time, it might not run Windows 10 now. My
understanding is, and if I'm wrong, I'm sure I will be corrected,
that a lot of Windows 7 machines won't run Windows 10 because
Microsoft now requires that different processors be used.

While I don't think that sort of thing will happen if one buys a
machine now for use seven or ten years into the future and are
attempting to future proof it, you are again gambling that newer
technologies wohn't come along that will render your computer less
useable, no matter how you future proof it now.

Gene.
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 6:27 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

This isn't correct. Browsers, and other day to day applications
even, dramatically have increased ram usage, as well as CPU power.
For example, Zoom will only let you blur the background of video
if you have a quad core processor. If you buy a dual core as
opposed to a quad core processor for example, it will struggle at
even the most basic of tasks, and in 5 years, or even in a few
years, programas even screen readers will begin to lag. This
happened with my core I5 4200M.
I thought a dual core was ok, though this was a system gifted to me.
Had I been choosing my own system then, I would've gone for an I7,
and now, this dual core is not even good enough for browsing.
Large websites will freeze it and even when I had it, intensive
apps like finereader will lag significantly independant of ram.
This is exactly I future proofed my next laptop, with a 1tb SSD,
32 gb of ram, and an
r7 4800H processor from AMD, with a 4.2 GHZ boost across all cores.
This should be powerful enough to run anything conceivable in the
next
5 or so years, except maybe AI workloads.
On 10/15/2020 6:07 AM, Gene wrote:
I've seen others, and I believe you, too, make the future proof
argument for buying a more powerful computer than the person's
anticipated needs because it will be useful longer because you
never know when your needs will change. I've always thought such
arguments were not good ones. For one thing, a lot of people will
continue to use computers in about the same ways as now and if
they do use them in more demanding ways, those will not likely
tax the computer if they buy a computer that isn't just barely
powerful enough to do what they want.

Also, technology continues to become more powerful and cost less.
So,
in five years, the projected reliable life of a computer, you
will be able to buy one to meet your needs then for less money
than you are paying now. In addition, though it’s a gamble, many
computers last more than five years, many significantly more.
Every dollar you overspend to be future proofed that you didn't
need because your needs didn't change and all the extra power of
your computer remains unused is increasingly wasted, the longer
your computer lasts.

It makes much more sense to buy a computer that is powerful
enough to meet your current needs well if you don't anticipate
major changes in how you will use your computer and are
reasonably confident that you won't do things in future that will
exceed the ability of the computer.

Spending one-thousand dollars to future proof a machine, just in
case, maybe you use your machine much differently in the future,
when you could spend five hundred dollars today and three hundred
dollars in fived or seven or eight years for another machine that
you would probably use in similar ways as you do now or not much,
is a bad idea.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2020 9:27 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me



Hi Brian,

Just for clerification, I have confirmed 5g signals do exist in
my area for my network. Even without the massive bandwidth, the
lower latency itself will probably result in better quality improvements.
Also, all versions of the IPhone by default include 5g.


On 10/14/2020 9:18 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 10:11 PM, enes sarıbaş wrote:
One reason, future proofing, I want to get the highest end
version of the IPhone 12, though 5g isn't very wiedespread now,
it will be in three years or so.- I am at a loss as to how doing
this, now, squares with your own earlier assertion, "I think 5g
is more significant for fixed wireless than smartphones."

Going to a 5G device now, when it is obscenely expensive, and
where the ability to exploit 5G is limited to a very few
locations, seems to me to be a supreme waste.

And 3 years is an eternity in the world of technology, and
smartphones in particular, and what's Apple's flagship now, will
be mid-range in 3 years, and much cheaper.

Going to a 5G smartphone now, unless you live in a major
metropolitan area, is locking your money up in a frozen asset you
cannot even use for its intended purpose.


























































Re: ram and SSD not detected by new laptop

Norman
 

Is this type of behavior normal though? Shouldn't the system beep or
go  to bios if it has a bad ram stick?


It may not, it depends on the system. I used to have a computer where if i would plug in a particular usb drive it just would not boot.


I assume I am not able to insert the ram incorrectly?

Correct, ram only goes in one way. If you feel along the long edge one side will have a little slot close to the center. This slot has to aline with a notch on the ram socket.


The interesting thing is that  the ram  was detected normally as a
single stick. I hope kingston will send me a replacement if it is defective.


They should. Also, try plugging both sticks in but one at a time. Based on what you've said so far I think it'll power on with one in but not the other.



HTH.


On 10/17/2020 9:55 AM, enes sarıbaş wrote:
Hi,

Is this type of behavior normal though? Shouldn't the system beep or go  to bios if it has a bad ram stick? I assume I am not able to insert the ram incorrectly? The interesting thing is that  the ram  was detected normally as a single stick. I hope kingston will send me a replacement if it is defective.

On 10/17/2020 8:47 AM, Norman wrote:
Hello.

Pull one of the ram sticks and power on. If you get the same result, swap them out and do it again. I'm suspicious you have a bad ram stick.

If it still doesn't power on properly pull the ssd and try again. I assume this computer came with a ram and memory config. It might be worth restoring it to that config and then swap out the hardware piece by piece, doing the power up test after each piece to see what's bad.


On 10/17/2020 9:41 AM, enes sarıbaş wrote:
An update. So I swapped out the ram sticks, and both firmly inserted. The SSD also fit snugly. However when I plugged in a flash drive to install windows, and powered on the pc,  the fans spun up at max settings for a while, then stopped. When they spun up again, the logo briefly appeared, however, after I powered up the computer again, now the system will not display anything on screen. The fans spin up, then spin down periodically until I turn it off. Does anyone know of a solution for this? None of the indicators on the computer light up.
On 10/17/2020 12:57 AM, enes sarıbaş via groups.io wrote:
Hi all,

So when purchasing a laptop I  opted to buy my own ram modules and SSD. However, as I was inserting the modules for the first time, I  spent quite a bit of time trying to figure out the correct direction to insert them. However, when I did insert one, it firmly clicked into place. The second one only inserted backside up in the same position. The clips  latched on and hold it, but it seems to buldge a bit, and the clips didn't audibly click. When inserting the SSD, the  SSD slot was covered by a piece of plastic wrap. I unscrewed the screw, inserted into the MDOC2 slot and screwed the screw back on. However, the SSd was loose, and the plastic came loose. My question is,  what did I do wrong exactly with the SSD? And is that plastic wrap needed? I inserted it again, and it seems to be ok,  but the dirve isn't detected by bios iether. And only one of the ram modules is detected. What can I do about this? Do I pull the clips apart and press downward to seat the memory module. I assume it was inserted correctly, as it isn't possible apparently to insert ram the wrong way.














Re: 5g and me

Lenron
 

I am going to have to go with the crowd that is all for the ssd. It
makes things so much faster, and it's really worth it. The start up
time is amazing. I wouldn't buy a computer with out one these days,
and if I did I would for sure upgrade it just to have one. Speaking
for ram for me 8 gb ram works on my laptop, but I for sure love
having the access to the 16 I do on my desktop. The things I do on my
desktop make that extra 8 gb needed for sure. I have been even
thinking about adding another 16 gb of ram there, but I think it will
be much more fun to put together another machine.

On 10/17/20, Norman <lists@thekingstech.com> wrote:
Hello.

I'd say both viewpoints being expressed in this thread are correct given
the perspective they are coming from.

Having people think before posting on social media would be a very good
thing. However, arguing that a slower computer might make that more
likely seems a little suspect to me given that most social media posting
is done off phones and tablets.


> But I don't think it is relevant that you can't know what it is like
to use an SSD drive


O yes it is. I would have said the same thing years ago but the
difference in over all performance is very noticeable.


> I'm saying that I wouldn't spend fifty dollars or more for something
I don't care about and that wouldn't affect, in any meaningful way, how
I use my computer.


That's your oppinion, and you have a right to that oppinion. However, my
oppinion is the exact opposite, i will and have spent an extra 50
dollars to have my ssd.



With that having been said, we all have a right to use our computers as
we see fit and spend whatever amount of money on them we want to. We
also have a right to make recommendations to others on how we would
build a computer for them or what they should get. You can make your
recommendation for the cheaper route and i can make mine for the more
expensive one. In the end it's up to the person who asked the question
as to which person's recommendations he wants to follow.


HTH.



On 10/17/2020 9:41 AM, Gene wrote:
Even if I used Windows  10, that has nothing to do with drives unless
I get a computer with a drive.  But I don't think it is relevant that
you can't know what it is like to use an SSD drive until you do I
except that if you know, you will have the experience to help base
your choice on.  If I can have that experience, without spending a
significant amount of money to have it, fine.  I don't know what the
expense is now and if it is small, then it may not matter. I'm saying
that I wouldn't spend fifty dollars or more for something I don't care
about and that wouldn't affect, in any meaningful way, how I use my
computer.

Also, in some cases, maybe a little slowness maybe an advantage.
People rush so quickly from one article or post in social media to
another that they may not have time to think properly about what they
read.  They may be so involved in rushing and reading that they get a
certain rush.  It is a cliché today, but a true one to discuss the
lessening of attention spans. Maybe having a slower computer, as I
used for awhile, gives them more time to relax and think.  I'm not
taking a pro or con position on that.  I'm simply pointing out that
the unquestioned assumption that the more speed is better should be
questioned.

Even if I had the experience of using an SSD drive, I would still use
a mechanical drive if there was a significant cost difference.  What I
do, most of the time, surfing, listening to streams, e-mail,
occasionally working on a document in a word processor, none of these
things are cases where a few seconds matter and the activity itself
takes up almost all of the time while doing it.  If someone wants the
emotional satisfaction of having an almost instant response, fine.
Most people don't know the emotional feeling of driving a race car.
That doesn't mean they shouldn't have a typical car.  They don't need
to know the feelingg to make a decision based on how they will use it.

The drive question has nothing to do with Windows version, it has to
do with speed.

Also, the reason I discuss this topic when it comes up is so that
others will see different opinions and be able to decide which
arguments they think make more sense.  Of course, the individual will
decide, but arguments and discussion may be important in some people
making a decision.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: chris judge
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 11:21 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

I find it amusing that this topic pops up every so often. We kick it
around for a week or so, then it just dies out with no resolution.
Personally I have no interest in what others spend their money on. I
don't drive and never will, thus I have none of the expenses a driver
has.
Every three or four years I treat myself to a new computer, and I
usually buy a fairly powerful beast. Last year I chose an i10
processor with 16 gig of ram and a 512 sshd, as well as a 2 TB
mechanical drive for data. Did I need all that? As N adult the only
person who can, and should be answering that question is me. I would
also like to state in closing that those who still believe there is no
significant difference between a solid state drive and a mechanical
one simply doesn't know what he/she is talking about, because if you
have ever experienced the difference you would know, and while windows
10 runs find with 8 gig of ram even while running a screen reader, it
runs better with 16. I know because I have both. Gene, I find you like
to quote other sources when forming your opinion on things. Since you
are still on windows 7, don't you think it's time to join the majority
of us and update your technology experiences?



Chris Judge


-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of
Carolyn Arnold
Sent: October 16, 2020 6:59 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

It sounds like we have different computer needs and purposes, and so
we get what suits us. One does not work for all, which is why there is
a variety.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io [mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io] On
Behalf Of enes saribas
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 5:22 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

It isn't like highway racing Its like buying a 50 dollar work chair
instead of a much more comfortable 500 dollar one or so, which  you
will sit in for 10 hours. You will curse yourself for the few hundred
you didn't spend because of the annoying lags, absence of features etc
that are standard on premium machines.

On 10/16/2020 6:44 AM, Gene wrote:
If you aren't an ordinary user and your comments may not apply to them
that should be specified in your comments.  Also, if these defects are
so terrible, please explain the favorable reviews I found.  I simply
don't believe that chincy, fall apart, or severely defective products
are generally produced.  That's an excellent way to alienate a lot of
users and get a bad reputation that may taint the whole line,
including more expensive computers among users.

I can't comment on your individual experiences but at the same time,
logic dicctates, as well as the large number of favorable reviews that
can be found for machines in the six to seven hundred dollar range and
the occasional chea[per machine, that your generalizations are
incorrect.

Three or four hundred dollars is a lot of money for a lot of people
and buying a thousand dollar or more machine for a lot of people is
like buying a racing car when you will be doing mostly highway driving
and neighborhood driving.

We'll see what other people have to say.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 6:11 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

Hi Gene,

I am not an ordinary user. When I purchase a computer, I will not
settle for anything less than the best. This system, while still able
to run browsers and regular websites ok, struggles and crashes freezes
when running large websites.  The difference in processor technology
reached a critically dramatic point when I thhought replacing this was
a good option. Every component on my new machine should at least
provide a 100% improvement or more, even ram speeds, 1600 vs 3200.

Flaws on laptops on that price range are usually intolerable. A cheap
case will not cool properly, and  will bend or warp easily. For
example, my laptop's plastic yields under the DVD drive. Cooling isn't
fixable with a cooling pad. Unfortunately with the focus on
portability cooling is taking a back seat with laptops. If fans are
too small for the thermals, or if vents are too small, that throttles
down the processor.
For sighted people, the screens of such machines are terrible in
quality. And a USB keyboard adds unneeded bulk to laptops.  Look at a
list of best laptops on any sight, and you won't see any machines in
your price range that make those lists. Here is an article which
describes why  it makes sense to pay for a better laptop.

https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/dont-be-so-cheap-five-reasons-
you-should-spend-more-on-your-next-laptop/



On 10/16/2020 5:53 AM, Gene wrote:
Few ports won't matter with hubs available and many people may well
not need more than the ports offered. Keyboards, I don't know how
serious a problem that is.  My lapptop, I don't know if it is in the
minority, as a very nice keyboard with large keys and a nice feel.
While a keyboard that is more difficult or unpleasant to use than it
should be would be an annoyance, at least when used at home, and
laptops these days often replace desktops, its easy enough to use a
USB keyboard.  If this is a problem with many laptops, it is hardly a
major flaw and hardly rises to the level justifying spending hundreds
of dollars more to solve unless you use the laptop portably some or
much of the time and you can't find a portable keyboard that
satisfies your needs.  Cooling?  If you are talking about laptops,
the person can use a cooling pad. Not a serious problem at all.

I don't know what problems you are referring to by material design.
I'll look at the page, but the objections you have discussed don't
justify spending more on a machine unless you want to use the laptop
while away from home and a solution to a flaw makes its use
unreasonably inconvenient, something I think won't happen with most
of the flaws you have discussed. Then, too, people who live anywhere
near a computer store or Walmart or Best Buy or other such stores can
inspect computers in person.  And there are always user reviews and
reviews in computer magazines such as the best laptops for 2020 and
other reviews such as the best laptops for 2020 costing under this or
that amount of money. And there are lists like this, good places to
ask what machines people are using and for evaluations or to ask
about a specific machine or machines you are interested in.

In short, you can pick the flaw that either won't matter to you or
will be easy to work around, given how you use the computer or you
can try to find one without such flaws and I would think some
computers without them perhaps many, if you look, can be found.

While your objection is interesting because it leads to a discussion
of the ways to find a good computer, it doesn't justify spending more
money for the majority of users.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 3:10 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

Hi Gene,

Systems in that price range today have major flaws, iether few ports,
cooling, keyboard, mouse, material design. You can view notebookcheck
and similar technology sites, and read reviews for systems in
different price brackets, and all of those systems will have their
flaws mentioned. Whether these flaws matter though depends on the
flaw or person.

On 10/15/2020 9:04 PM, Gene wrote:
And so are laptops.  Your information is wrong.  I bought a laptop
about nine years ago, and certainly you would get more power for the
same price now, for about 480 dollars.  It has worked very well.  It
is not compromised.  It doesn't have defects.

And no one said a 500 dollar computer is good for everyone. I'm not
talking about gamers or power users.  I'm talking about the majority
of Internet users who stream, surf, use a word processor, record
audio, and do other tasks that are not particularly demanding.


Gene
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 8:44 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

Just because you may consider a system adequate for your own needs
doesn't mean it is for  is for everyone. A system like that would
have major compremises. For clerification, I am talking about laptop
prices, desktops in that price range may in fact be midrange. What I
am saying is a minimum system for anyone should have a 6 core or so
CPU, 8 gb or
16 gb of dual channel ram, an I5processor etc.

On 10/15/2020 7:08 PM, Monte Single wrote:
Hi list,
: enes sarıbaş  thinks a 500 dollar computer/laptop is less than
adequate for the average user.
He is not the first person on the list to express such thoughts.
The  one time I spent more than that for a computer was for the
first one I purchased;  that was in the last millennium.
If I spent 500 u s dollars on a computer today,  it would be built
with quality parts and be more than adequate for the average
computer user's needs.
: enes sarıbaş   go forth and conquer, spend the big bucks.
Hopefully it will stimulate the economy.



-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf
Of Gene
Sent: October 15, 2020 5:29 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

That simply is not true.  A lot of people have machines in the five
hundred dollar range and they work fine.

And five hundred dollar machines aren't just barely competent
machines.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 4:14 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

No, I would not buy a 500 dollar machine. In fact, I would exclude
machines below a certain build quality as a matter of principle. Is
saving every little penny really worth it for a device people use
12 hours a day or more? possibly? Those machines usually have more
than one major flaw, and have barebone specs. I think a power user
should get a pc above the 1000 dollar range, and a regular user, if
they can aford it should go around 700-800. The difference between
an entry level, and even midrange computer is very apparent in
build quality, as well as components. A midrange system will
probably have one or two important flaws, but a budget system will
have three or more, iether bad keyboard, cheap material, poor
cooling, etc.

On 10/15/2020 7:15 AM, Gene wrote:
And I suspect you spent over a thousand dollars to do what a five
hundred dollar computer can do, less if on sale ormanufacturer
refurbished.  I don't know enough technically to discuss some of
your technical points, but I'll say the following:
The advice I see from computer advisors is that for the majority
of people, purchasing a machine somewhere in the five hundred
dollar range will meet their needs.  And even if memory
requirements have gone up for some programs, they haven't gone up
nearly enough that more than 8GB of ram is recommended for the
majority of users.  That is the recommendation and it has been
for years.

A little money here, a little money there, a more powerful
processor, and pretty soon, you are spending five hundred dollars
or more than you need to and gambling that your machine will last
far longer than the generally agreed on length for reliable
service, five years.  I think it is a very bad gamble, not because
the machine won't last longer, it may well do so, but you are
spending a lot more money now for performance parameters that will
be much less expensive when you replace the computer. And the
typical user, buying a machine around the five hundred dollar
range today, unless their uses change radically, won't have
problems that will require a new machine probably for the life of
the current one.

And what about technological changes itself?  If you bought a
machine in the Windows 7 days that was future proofed, in your
opinion at that time, it might not run Windows 10 now. My
understanding is, and if I'm wrong, I'm sure I will be corrected,
that a lot of Windows 7 machines won't run Windows 10 because
Microsoft now requires that different processors be used.

While I don't think that sort of thing will happen if one buys a
machine now for use seven or ten years into the future and are
attempting to future proof it, you are again gambling that newer
technologies wohn't come along that will render your computer less
useable, no matter how you future proof it now.

Gene.
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 6:27 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

This isn't correct. Browsers, and other day to day applications
even, dramatically have increased ram usage, as well as CPU power.
For example, Zoom will only let you blur the background of video
if you have a quad core processor. If you buy a dual core as
opposed to a quad core processor for example, it will struggle at
even the most basic of tasks, and in 5 years, or even in a few
years, programas even screen readers will begin to lag. This
happened with my core I5 4200M.
I thought a dual core was ok, though this was a system gifted to me.
Had I been choosing my own system then, I would've gone for an I7,
and now, this dual core is not even good enough for browsing.
Large websites will freeze it and even when I had it, intensive
apps like finereader will lag significantly independant of ram.
This is exactly I future proofed my next laptop, with a 1tb SSD,
32 gb of ram, and an
r7 4800H processor from AMD, with a 4.2 GHZ boost across all cores.
This should be powerful enough to run anything conceivable in the
next
5 or so years, except maybe AI workloads.
On 10/15/2020 6:07 AM, Gene wrote:
I've seen others, and I believe you, too, make the future proof
argument for buying a more powerful computer than the person's
anticipated needs because it will be useful longer because you
never know when your needs will change. I've always thought such
arguments were not good ones. For one thing, a lot of people will
continue to use computers in about the same ways as now and if
they do use them in more demanding ways, those will not likely
tax the computer if they buy a computer that isn't just barely
powerful enough to do what they want.

Also, technology continues to become more powerful and cost less.
So,
in five years, the projected reliable life of a computer, you
will be able to buy one to meet your needs then for less money
than you are paying now. In addition, though it’s a gamble, many
computers last more than five years, many significantly more.
Every dollar you overspend to be future proofed that you didn't
need because your needs didn't change and all the extra power of
your computer remains unused is increasingly wasted, the longer
your computer lasts.

It makes much more sense to buy a computer that is powerful
enough to meet your current needs well if you don't anticipate
major changes in how you will use your computer and are
reasonably confident that you won't do things in future that will
exceed the ability of the computer.

Spending one-thousand dollars to future proof a machine, just in
case, maybe you use your machine much differently in the future,
when you could spend five hundred dollars today and three hundred
dollars in fived or seven or eight years for another machine that
you would probably use in similar ways as you do now or not much,
is a bad idea.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2020 9:27 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me



Hi Brian,

Just for clerification, I have confirmed 5g signals do exist in
my area for my network. Even without the massive bandwidth, the
lower latency itself will probably result in better quality
improvements.
Also, all versions of the IPhone by default include 5g.


On 10/14/2020 9:18 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 10:11 PM, enes sarıbaş wrote:
One reason, future proofing, I want to get the highest end
version of the IPhone 12, though 5g isn't very wiedespread now,
it will be in three years or so.- I am at a loss as to how doing
this, now, squares with your own earlier assertion, "I think 5g
is more significant for fixed wireless than smartphones."

Going to a 5G device now, when it is obscenely expensive, and
where the ability to exploit 5G is limited to a very few
locations, seems to me to be a supreme waste.

And 3 years is an eternity in the world of technology, and
smartphones in particular, and what's Apple's flagship now, will
be mid-range in 3 years, and much cheaper.

Going to a 5G smartphone now, unless you live in a major
metropolitan area, is locking your money up in a frozen asset you
cannot even use for its intended purpose.





























































--
Lenron Brown
Cell: 985-271-2832
Skype: ron.brown762


Re: 5g and me

Norman
 

Hello.

I'd say both viewpoints being expressed in this thread are correct given the perspective they are coming from.

Having people think before posting on social media would be a very good thing. However, arguing that a slower computer might make that more likely seems a little suspect to me given that most social media posting is done off phones and tablets.


But I don't think it is relevant that you can't know what it is like
to use an SSD drive


O yes it is. I would have said the same thing years ago but the difference in over all performance is very noticeable.


I'm saying that I wouldn't spend fifty dollars or more for something
I don't care about and that wouldn't affect, in any meaningful way, how I use my computer.


That's your oppinion, and you have a right to that oppinion. However, my oppinion is the exact opposite, i will and have spent an extra 50 dollars to have my ssd.



With that having been said, we all have a right to use our computers as we see fit and spend whatever amount of money on them we want to. We also have a right to make recommendations to others on how we would build a computer for them or what they should get. You can make your recommendation for the cheaper route and i can make mine for the more expensive one. In the end it's up to the person who asked the question as to which person's recommendations he wants to follow.


HTH.



On 10/17/2020 9:41 AM, Gene wrote:
Even if I used Windows  10, that has nothing to do with drives unless I get a computer with a drive.  But I don't think it is relevant that you can't know what it is like to use an SSD drive until you do I except that if you know, you will have the experience to help base your choice on.  If I can have that experience, without spending a significant amount of money to have it, fine.  I don't know what the expense is now and if it is small, then it may not matter. I'm saying that I wouldn't spend fifty dollars or more for something I don't care about and that wouldn't affect, in any meaningful way, how I use my computer.

Also, in some cases, maybe a little slowness maybe an advantage. People rush so quickly from one article or post in social media to another that they may not have time to think properly about what they read.  They may be so involved in rushing and reading that they get a certain rush.  It is a cliché today, but a true one to discuss the lessening of attention spans. Maybe having a slower computer, as I used for awhile, gives them more time to relax and think.  I'm not taking a pro or con position on that.  I'm simply pointing out that the unquestioned assumption that the more speed is better should be questioned.

Even if I had the experience of using an SSD drive, I would still use a mechanical drive if there was a significant cost difference.  What I do, most of the time, surfing, listening to streams, e-mail, occasionally working on a document in a word processor, none of these things are cases where a few seconds matter and the activity itself takes up almost all of the time while doing it.  If someone wants the emotional satisfaction of having an almost instant response, fine.  Most people don't know the emotional feeling of driving a race car.  That doesn't mean they shouldn't have a typical car.  They don't need to know the feelingg to make a decision based on how they will use it.

The drive question has nothing to do with Windows version, it has to do with speed.

Also, the reason I discuss this topic when it comes up is so that others will see different opinions and be able to decide which arguments they think make more sense.  Of course, the individual will decide, but arguments and discussion may be important in some people making a decision.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: chris judge
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 11:21 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

I find it amusing that this topic pops up every so often. We kick it around for a week or so, then it just dies out with no resolution. Personally I have no interest in what others spend their money on. I don't drive and never will, thus I have none of the expenses a driver has.
Every three or four years I treat myself to a new computer, and I usually buy a fairly powerful beast. Last year I chose an i10 processor with 16 gig of ram and a 512 sshd, as well as a 2 TB mechanical drive for data. Did I need all that? As N adult the only person who can, and should be answering that question is me. I would also like to state in closing that those who still believe there is no significant difference between a solid state drive and a mechanical one simply doesn't know what he/she is talking about, because if you have ever experienced the difference you would know, and while windows 10 runs find with 8 gig of ram even while running a screen reader, it runs better with 16. I know because I have both. Gene, I find you like to quote other sources when forming your opinion on things. Since you are still on windows 7, don't you think it's time to join the majority of us and update your technology experiences?



Chris Judge


-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Carolyn Arnold
Sent: October 16, 2020 6:59 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

It sounds like we have different computer needs and purposes, and so we get what suits us. One does not work for all, which is why there is a variety.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io [mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io] On Behalf Of enes saribas
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 5:22 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

It isn't like highway racing Its like buying a 50 dollar work chair instead of a much more comfortable 500 dollar one or so, which  you will sit in for 10 hours. You will curse yourself for the few hundred you didn't spend because of the annoying lags, absence of features etc that are standard on premium machines.

On 10/16/2020 6:44 AM, Gene wrote:
If you aren't an ordinary user and your comments may not apply to them
that should be specified in your comments.  Also, if these defects are
so terrible, please explain the favorable reviews I found.  I simply
don't believe that chincy, fall apart, or severely defective products
are generally produced.  That's an excellent way to alienate a lot of
users and get a bad reputation that may taint the whole line,
including more expensive computers among users.

I can't comment on your individual experiences but at the same time,
logic dicctates, as well as the large number of favorable reviews that
can be found for machines in the six to seven hundred dollar range and
the occasional chea[per machine, that your generalizations are incorrect.

Three or four hundred dollars is a lot of money for a lot of people
and buying a thousand dollar or more machine for a lot of people is
like buying a racing car when you will be doing mostly highway driving
and neighborhood driving.

We'll see what other people have to say.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 6:11 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

Hi Gene,

I am not an ordinary user. When I purchase a computer, I will not
settle for anything less than the best. This system, while still able
to run browsers and regular websites ok, struggles and crashes freezes
when running large websites.  The difference in processor technology
reached a critically dramatic point when I thhought replacing this was
a good option. Every component on my new machine should at least
provide a 100% improvement or more, even ram speeds, 1600 vs 3200.

Flaws on laptops on that price range are usually intolerable. A cheap
case will not cool properly, and  will bend or warp easily. For
example, my laptop's plastic yields under the DVD drive. Cooling isn't
fixable with a cooling pad. Unfortunately with the focus on
portability cooling is taking a back seat with laptops. If fans are
too small for the thermals, or if vents are too small, that throttles down the processor.
For sighted people, the screens of such machines are terrible in
quality. And a USB keyboard adds unneeded bulk to laptops.  Look at a
list of best laptops on any sight, and you won't see any machines in
your price range that make those lists. Here is an article which
describes why  it makes sense to pay for a better laptop.

https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/dont-be-so-cheap-five-reasons-
you-should-spend-more-on-your-next-laptop/



On 10/16/2020 5:53 AM, Gene wrote:
Few ports won't matter with hubs available and many people may well
not need more than the ports offered. Keyboards, I don't know how
serious a problem that is.  My lapptop, I don't know if it is in the
minority, as a very nice keyboard with large keys and a nice feel.
While a keyboard that is more difficult or unpleasant to use than it
should be would be an annoyance, at least when used at home, and
laptops these days often replace desktops, its easy enough to use a
USB keyboard.  If this is a problem with many laptops, it is hardly a
major flaw and hardly rises to the level justifying spending hundreds
of dollars more to solve unless you use the laptop portably some or
much of the time and you can't find a portable keyboard that
satisfies your needs.  Cooling?  If you are talking about laptops,
the person can use a cooling pad. Not a serious problem at all.

I don't know what problems you are referring to by material design.
I'll look at the page, but the objections you have discussed don't
justify spending more on a machine unless you want to use the laptop
while away from home and a solution to a flaw makes its use
unreasonably inconvenient, something I think won't happen with most
of the flaws you have discussed. Then, too, people who live anywhere
near a computer store or Walmart or Best Buy or other such stores can
inspect computers in person.  And there are always user reviews and
reviews in computer magazines such as the best laptops for 2020 and
other reviews such as the best laptops for 2020 costing under this or
that amount of money. And there are lists like this, good places to
ask what machines people are using and for evaluations or to ask
about a specific machine or machines you are interested in.

In short, you can pick the flaw that either won't matter to you or
will be easy to work around, given how you use the computer or you
can try to find one without such flaws and I would think some
computers without them perhaps many, if you look, can be found.

While your objection is interesting because it leads to a discussion
of the ways to find a good computer, it doesn't justify spending more
money for the majority of users.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 3:10 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

Hi Gene,

Systems in that price range today have major flaws, iether few ports,
cooling, keyboard, mouse, material design. You can view notebookcheck
and similar technology sites, and read reviews for systems in
different price brackets, and all of those systems will have their
flaws mentioned. Whether these flaws matter though depends on the
flaw or person.

On 10/15/2020 9:04 PM, Gene wrote:
And so are laptops.  Your information is wrong.  I bought a laptop
about nine years ago, and certainly you would get more power for the
same price now, for about 480 dollars.  It has worked very well.  It
is not compromised.  It doesn't have defects.

And no one said a 500 dollar computer is good for everyone. I'm not
talking about gamers or power users.  I'm talking about the majority
of Internet users who stream, surf, use a word processor, record
audio, and do other tasks that are not particularly demanding.


Gene
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 8:44 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

Just because you may consider a system adequate for your own needs
doesn't mean it is for  is for everyone. A system like that would
have major compremises. For clerification, I am talking about laptop
prices, desktops in that price range may in fact be midrange. What I
am saying is a minimum system for anyone should have a 6 core or so
CPU, 8 gb or
16 gb of dual channel ram, an I5processor etc.

On 10/15/2020 7:08 PM, Monte Single wrote:
Hi list,
: enes sarıbaş  thinks a 500 dollar computer/laptop is less than
adequate for the average user.
He is not the first person on the list to express such thoughts.
The  one time I spent more than that for a computer was for the
first one I purchased;  that was in the last millennium.
If I spent 500 u s dollars on a computer today,  it would be built
with quality parts and be more than adequate for the average
computer user's needs.
: enes sarıbaş   go forth and conquer, spend the big bucks.
Hopefully it will stimulate the economy.



-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf
Of Gene
Sent: October 15, 2020 5:29 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

That simply is not true.  A lot of people have machines in the five
hundred dollar range and they work fine.

And five hundred dollar machines aren't just barely competent
machines.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 4:14 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

No, I would not buy a 500 dollar machine. In fact, I would exclude
machines below a certain build quality as a matter of principle. Is
saving every little penny really worth it for a device people use
12 hours a day or more? possibly? Those machines usually have more
than one major flaw, and have barebone specs. I think a power user
should get a pc above the 1000 dollar range, and a regular user, if
they can aford it should go around 700-800. The difference between
an entry level, and even midrange computer is very apparent in
build quality, as well as components. A midrange system will
probably have one or two important flaws, but a budget system will
have three or more, iether bad keyboard, cheap material, poor
cooling, etc.

On 10/15/2020 7:15 AM, Gene wrote:
And I suspect you spent over a thousand dollars to do what a five
hundred dollar computer can do, less if on sale ormanufacturer
refurbished.  I don't know enough technically to discuss some of
your technical points, but I'll say the following:
The advice I see from computer advisors is that for the majority
of people, purchasing a machine somewhere in the five hundred
dollar range will meet their needs.  And even if memory
requirements have gone up for some programs, they haven't gone up
nearly enough that more than 8GB of ram is recommended for the
majority of users.  That is the recommendation and it has been for years.

A little money here, a little money there, a more powerful
processor, and pretty soon, you are spending five hundred dollars
or more than you need to and gambling that your machine will last
far longer than the generally agreed on length for reliable
service, five years.  I think it is a very bad gamble, not because
the machine won't last longer, it may well do so, but you are
spending a lot more money now for performance parameters that will
be much less expensive when you replace the computer. And the
typical user, buying a machine around the five hundred dollar
range today, unless their uses change radically, won't have
problems that will require a new machine probably for the life of the current one.

And what about technological changes itself?  If you bought a
machine in the Windows 7 days that was future proofed, in your
opinion at that time, it might not run Windows 10 now. My
understanding is, and if I'm wrong, I'm sure I will be corrected,
that a lot of Windows 7 machines won't run Windows 10 because
Microsoft now requires that different processors be used.

While I don't think that sort of thing will happen if one buys a
machine now for use seven or ten years into the future and are
attempting to future proof it, you are again gambling that newer
technologies wohn't come along that will render your computer less
useable, no matter how you future proof it now.

Gene.
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 6:27 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

This isn't correct. Browsers, and other day to day applications
even, dramatically have increased ram usage, as well as CPU power.
For example, Zoom will only let you blur the background of video
if you have a quad core processor. If you buy a dual core as
opposed to a quad core processor for example, it will struggle at
even the most basic of tasks, and in 5 years, or even in a few
years, programas even screen readers will begin to lag. This
happened with my core I5 4200M.
I thought a dual core was ok, though this was a system gifted to me.
Had I been choosing my own system then, I would've gone for an I7,
and now, this dual core is not even good enough for browsing.
Large websites will freeze it and even when I had it, intensive
apps like finereader will lag significantly independant of ram.
This is exactly I future proofed my next laptop, with a 1tb SSD,
32 gb of ram, and an
r7 4800H processor from AMD, with a 4.2 GHZ boost across all cores.
This should be powerful enough to run anything conceivable in the
next
5 or so years, except maybe AI workloads.
On 10/15/2020 6:07 AM, Gene wrote:
I've seen others, and I believe you, too, make the future proof
argument for buying a more powerful computer than the person's
anticipated needs because it will be useful longer because you
never know when your needs will change. I've always thought such
arguments were not good ones. For one thing, a lot of people will
continue to use computers in about the same ways as now and if
they do use them in more demanding ways, those will not likely
tax the computer if they buy a computer that isn't just barely
powerful enough to do what they want.

Also, technology continues to become more powerful and cost less.
So,
in five years, the projected reliable life of a computer, you
will be able to buy one to meet your needs then for less money
than you are paying now. In addition, though it’s a gamble, many
computers last more than five years, many significantly more.
Every dollar you overspend to be future proofed that you didn't
need because your needs didn't change and all the extra power of
your computer remains unused is increasingly wasted, the longer
your computer lasts.

It makes much more sense to buy a computer that is powerful
enough to meet your current needs well if you don't anticipate
major changes in how you will use your computer and are
reasonably confident that you won't do things in future that will
exceed the ability of the computer.

Spending one-thousand dollars to future proof a machine, just in
case, maybe you use your machine much differently in the future,
when you could spend five hundred dollars today and three hundred
dollars in fived or seven or eight years for another machine that
you would probably use in similar ways as you do now or not much,
is a bad idea.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2020 9:27 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me



Hi Brian,

Just for clerification, I have confirmed 5g signals do exist in
my area for my network. Even without the massive bandwidth, the
lower latency itself will probably result in better quality improvements.
Also, all versions of the IPhone by default include 5g.


On 10/14/2020 9:18 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 10:11 PM, enes sarıbaş wrote:
One reason, future proofing, I want to get the highest end
version of the IPhone 12, though 5g isn't very wiedespread now,
it will be in three years or so.- I am at a loss as to how doing
this, now, squares with your own earlier assertion, "I think 5g
is more significant for fixed wireless than smartphones."

Going to a 5G device now, when it is obscenely expensive, and
where the ability to exploit 5G is limited to a very few
locations, seems to me to be a supreme waste.

And 3 years is an eternity in the world of technology, and
smartphones in particular, and what's Apple's flagship now, will
be mid-range in 3 years, and much cheaper.

Going to a 5G smartphone now, unless you live in a major
metropolitan area, is locking your money up in a frozen asset you
cannot even use for its intended purpose.

























































Re: ram and SSD not detected by new laptop

enes sarıbaş
 

Hi,

Is this type of behavior normal though? Shouldn't the system beep or go  to bios if it has a bad ram stick? I assume I am not able to insert the ram incorrectly? The interesting thing is that  the ram  was detected normally as a single stick. I hope kingston will send me a replacement if it is defective.

On 10/17/2020 8:47 AM, Norman wrote:
Hello.

Pull one of the ram sticks and power on. If you get the same result, swap them out and do it again. I'm suspicious you have a bad ram stick.

If it still doesn't power on properly pull the ssd and try again. I assume this computer came with a ram and memory config. It might be worth restoring it to that config and then swap out the hardware piece by piece, doing the power up test after each piece to see what's bad.


On 10/17/2020 9:41 AM, enes sarıbaş wrote:
An update. So I swapped out the ram sticks, and both firmly inserted. The SSD also fit snugly. However when I plugged in a flash drive to install windows, and powered on the pc,  the fans spun up at max settings for a while, then stopped. When they spun up again, the logo briefly appeared, however, after I powered up the computer again, now the system will not display anything on screen. The fans spin up, then spin down periodically until I turn it off. Does anyone know of a solution for this? None of the indicators on the computer light up.
On 10/17/2020 12:57 AM, enes sarıbaş via groups.io wrote:
Hi all,

So when purchasing a laptop I  opted to buy my own ram modules and SSD. However, as I was inserting the modules for the first time, I  spent quite a bit of time trying to figure out the correct direction to insert them. However, when I did insert one, it firmly clicked into place. The second one only inserted backside up in the same position. The clips  latched on and hold it, but it seems to buldge a bit, and the clips didn't audibly click. When inserting the SSD, the  SSD slot was covered by a piece of plastic wrap. I unscrewed the screw, inserted into the MDOC2 slot and screwed the screw back on. However, the SSd was loose, and the plastic came loose. My question is,  what did I do wrong exactly with the SSD? And is that plastic wrap needed? I inserted it again, and it seems to be ok,  but the dirve isn't detected by bios iether. And only one of the ram modules is detected. What can I do about this? Do I pull the clips apart and press downward to seat the memory module. I assume it was inserted correctly, as it isn't possible apparently to insert ram the wrong way.











Re: ram and SSD not detected by new laptop

Norman
 

Hello.

Pull one of the ram sticks and power on. If you get the same result, swap them out and do it again. I'm suspicious you have a bad ram stick.

If it still doesn't power on properly pull the ssd and try again. I assume this computer came with a ram and memory config. It might be worth restoring it to that config and then swap out the hardware piece by piece, doing the power up test after each piece to see what's bad.

On 10/17/2020 9:41 AM, enes sarıbaş wrote:
An update. So I swapped out the ram sticks, and both firmly inserted. The SSD also fit snugly. However when I plugged in a flash drive to install windows, and powered on the pc,  the fans spun up at max settings for a while, then stopped. When they spun up again, the logo briefly appeared, however, after I powered up the computer again, now the system will not display anything on screen. The fans spin up, then spin down periodically until I turn it off. Does anyone know of a solution for this? None of the indicators on the computer light up.
On 10/17/2020 12:57 AM, enes sarıbaş via groups.io wrote:
Hi all,

So when purchasing a laptop I  opted to buy my own ram modules and SSD. However, as I was inserting the modules for the first time, I  spent quite a bit of time trying to figure out the correct direction to insert them. However, when I did insert one, it firmly clicked into place. The second one only inserted backside up in the same position. The clips  latched on and hold it, but it seems to buldge a bit, and the clips didn't audibly click. When inserting the SSD, the  SSD slot was covered by a piece of plastic wrap. I unscrewed the screw, inserted into the MDOC2 slot and screwed the screw back on. However, the SSd was loose, and the plastic came loose. My question is,  what did I do wrong exactly with the SSD? And is that plastic wrap needed? I inserted it again, and it seems to be ok,  but the dirve isn't detected by bios iether. And only one of the ram modules is detected. What can I do about this? Do I pull the clips apart and press downward to seat the memory module. I assume it was inserted correctly, as it isn't possible apparently to insert ram the wrong way.








Re: 5g and me

Terry Olandese
 

I'd like to way in for a sec. I can tell you that an sd drive lets the computer start up a lot faster then a mechanical one.
I've had both.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io [mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2020 9:42 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

Even if I used Windows 10, that has nothing to do with drives unless I get a computer with a drive. But I don't think it is relevant that you can't know what it is like to use an SSD drive until you do I except that if you know, you will have the experience to help base your choice on. If I can have that experience, without spending a significant amount of money to have it, fine. I don't know what the expense is now and if it is small, then it may not matter. I'm saying that I wouldn't spend fifty dollars or more for something I don't care about and that wouldn't affect, in any meaningful way, how I use my computer.

Also, in some cases, maybe a little slowness maybe an advantage. People rush so quickly from one article or post in social media to another that they may not have time to think properly about what they read. They may be so involved in rushing and reading that they get a certain rush. It is a cliché today, but a true one to discuss the lessening of attention spans.
Maybe having a slower computer, as I used for awhile, gives them more time to relax and think. I'm not taking a pro or con position on that. I'm simply pointing out that the unquestioned assumption that the more speed is better should be questioned.

Even if I had the experience of using an SSD drive, I would still use a mechanical drive if there was a significant cost difference. What I do, most of the time, surfing, listening to streams, e-mail, occasionally working on a document in a word processor, none of these things are cases where a few seconds matter and the activity itself takes up almost all of the time while doing it. If someone wants the emotional satisfaction of having an almost instant response, fine. Most people don't know the emotional feeling of driving a race car. That doesn't mean they shouldn't have a typical car. They don't need to know the feelingg to make a decision based on how they will use it.

The drive question has nothing to do with Windows version, it has to do with speed.

Also, the reason I discuss this topic when it comes up is so that others will see different opinions and be able to decide which arguments they think make more sense. Of course, the individual will decide, but arguments and discussion may be important in some people making a decision.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: chris judge
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 11:21 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

I find it amusing that this topic pops up every so often. We kick it around for a week or so, then it just dies out with no resolution. Personally I have no interest in what others spend their money on. I don't drive and never will, thus I have none of the expenses a driver has.
Every three or four years I treat myself to a new computer, and I usually buy a fairly powerful beast. Last year I chose an i10 processor with 16 gig of ram and a 512 sshd, as well as a 2 TB mechanical drive for data. Did I need all that? As N adult the only person who can, and should be answering that question is me. I would also like to state in closing that those who still believe there is no significant difference between a solid state drive and a mechanical one simply doesn't know what he/she is talking about, because if you have ever experienced the difference you would know, and while windows 10 runs find with 8 gig of ram even while running a screen reader, it runs better with 16. I know because I have both. Gene, I find you like to quote other sources when forming your opinion on things. Since you are still on windows 7, don't you think it's time to join the majority of us and update your technology experiences?



Chris Judge


-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Carolyn Arnold
Sent: October 16, 2020 6:59 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

It sounds like we have different computer needs and purposes, and so we get what suits us. One does not work for all, which is why there is a variety.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io [mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io] On Behalf Of enes saribas
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 5:22 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

It isn't like highway racing Its like buying a 50 dollar work chair instead of a much more comfortable 500 dollar one or so, which you will sit in for
10 hours. You will curse yourself for the few hundred you didn't spend because of the annoying lags, absence of features etc that are standard on premium machines.

On 10/16/2020 6:44 AM, Gene wrote:
If you aren't an ordinary user and your comments may not apply to them
that should be specified in your comments. Also, if these defects are
so terrible, please explain the favorable reviews I found. I simply
don't believe that chincy, fall apart, or severely defective products
are generally produced. That's an excellent way to alienate a lot of
users and get a bad reputation that may taint the whole line,
including more expensive computers among users.

I can't comment on your individual experiences but at the same time,
logic dicctates, as well as the large number of favorable reviews that
can be found for machines in the six to seven hundred dollar range and
the occasional chea[per machine, that your generalizations are incorrect.

Three or four hundred dollars is a lot of money for a lot of people
and buying a thousand dollar or more machine for a lot of people is
like buying a racing car when you will be doing mostly highway driving
and neighborhood driving.

We'll see what other people have to say.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 6:11 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

Hi Gene,

I am not an ordinary user. When I purchase a computer, I will not
settle for anything less than the best. This system, while still able
to run browsers and regular websites ok, struggles and crashes freezes
when running large websites. The difference in processor technology
reached a critically dramatic point when I thhought replacing this was
a good option. Every component on my new machine should at least
provide a 100% improvement or more, even ram speeds, 1600 vs 3200.

Flaws on laptops on that price range are usually intolerable. A cheap
case will not cool properly, and will bend or warp easily. For
example, my laptop's plastic yields under the DVD drive. Cooling isn't
fixable with a cooling pad. Unfortunately with the focus on
portability cooling is taking a back seat with laptops. If fans are
too small for the thermals, or if vents are too small, that throttles
down the processor.
For sighted people, the screens of such machines are terrible in
quality. And a USB keyboard adds unneeded bulk to laptops. Look at a
list of best laptops on any sight, and you won't see any machines in
your price range that make those lists. Here is an article which
describes why it makes sense to pay for a better laptop.

https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/dont-be-so-cheap-five-reasons-
you-should-spend-more-on-your-next-laptop/



On 10/16/2020 5:53 AM, Gene wrote:
Few ports won't matter with hubs available and many people may well
not need more than the ports offered. Keyboards, I don't know how
serious a problem that is. My lapptop, I don't know if it is in the
minority, as a very nice keyboard with large keys and a nice feel.
While a keyboard that is more difficult or unpleasant to use than it
should be would be an annoyance, at least when used at home, and
laptops these days often replace desktops, its easy enough to use a
USB keyboard. If this is a problem with many laptops, it is hardly a
major flaw and hardly rises to the level justifying spending hundreds
of dollars more to solve unless you use the laptop portably some or
much of the time and you can't find a portable keyboard that
satisfies your needs. Cooling? If you are talking about laptops,
the person can use a cooling pad. Not a serious problem at all.

I don't know what problems you are referring to by material design.
I'll look at the page, but the objections you have discussed don't
justify spending more on a machine unless you want to use the laptop
while away from home and a solution to a flaw makes its use
unreasonably inconvenient, something I think won't happen with most
of the flaws you have discussed. Then, too, people who live anywhere
near a computer store or Walmart or Best Buy or other such stores can
inspect computers in person. And there are always user reviews and
reviews in computer magazines such as the best laptops for 2020 and
other reviews such as the best laptops for 2020 costing under this or
that amount of money. And there are lists like this, good places to
ask what machines people are using and for evaluations or to ask
about a specific machine or machines you are interested in.

In short, you can pick the flaw that either won't matter to you or
will be easy to work around, given how you use the computer or you
can try to find one without such flaws and I would think some
computers without them perhaps many, if you look, can be found.

While your objection is interesting because it leads to a discussion
of the ways to find a good computer, it doesn't justify spending more
money for the majority of users.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 3:10 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

Hi Gene,

Systems in that price range today have major flaws, iether few ports,
cooling, keyboard, mouse, material design. You can view notebookcheck
and similar technology sites, and read reviews for systems in
different price brackets, and all of those systems will have their
flaws mentioned. Whether these flaws matter though depends on the
flaw or person.

On 10/15/2020 9:04 PM, Gene wrote:
And so are laptops. Your information is wrong. I bought a laptop
about nine years ago, and certainly you would get more power for the
same price now, for about 480 dollars. It has worked very well. It
is not compromised. It doesn't have defects.

And no one said a 500 dollar computer is good for everyone. I'm not
talking about gamers or power users. I'm talking about the majority
of Internet users who stream, surf, use a word processor, record
audio, and do other tasks that are not particularly demanding.


Gene
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 8:44 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

Just because you may consider a system adequate for your own needs
doesn't mean it is for is for everyone. A system like that would
have major compremises. For clerification, I am talking about laptop
prices, desktops in that price range may in fact be midrange. What I
am saying is a minimum system for anyone should have a 6 core or so
CPU, 8 gb or
16 gb of dual channel ram, an I5processor etc.

On 10/15/2020 7:08 PM, Monte Single wrote:
Hi list,
: enes sarıbaş thinks a 500 dollar computer/laptop is less than
adequate for the average user.
He is not the first person on the list to express such thoughts.
The one time I spent more than that for a computer was for the
first one I purchased; that was in the last millennium.
If I spent 500 u s dollars on a computer today, it would be built
with quality parts and be more than adequate for the average
computer user's needs.
: enes sarıbaş go forth and conquer, spend the big bucks.
Hopefully it will stimulate the economy.



-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf
Of Gene
Sent: October 15, 2020 5:29 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

That simply is not true. A lot of people have machines in the five
hundred dollar range and they work fine.

And five hundred dollar machines aren't just barely competent
machines.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 4:14 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

No, I would not buy a 500 dollar machine. In fact, I would exclude
machines below a certain build quality as a matter of principle. Is
saving every little penny really worth it for a device people use
12 hours a day or more? possibly? Those machines usually have more
than one major flaw, and have barebone specs. I think a power user
should get a pc above the 1000 dollar range, and a regular user, if
they can aford it should go around 700-800. The difference between
an entry level, and even midrange computer is very apparent in
build quality, as well as components. A midrange system will
probably have one or two important flaws, but a budget system will
have three or more, iether bad keyboard, cheap material, poor
cooling, etc.

On 10/15/2020 7:15 AM, Gene wrote:
And I suspect you spent over a thousand dollars to do what a five
hundred dollar computer can do, less if on sale ormanufacturer
refurbished. I don't know enough technically to discuss some of
your technical points, but I'll say the following:
The advice I see from computer advisors is that for the majority
of people, purchasing a machine somewhere in the five hundred
dollar range will meet their needs. And even if memory
requirements have gone up for some programs, they haven't gone up
nearly enough that more than 8GB of ram is recommended for the
majority of users. That is the recommendation and it has been for
years.

A little money here, a little money there, a more powerful
processor, and pretty soon, you are spending five hundred dollars
or more than you need to and gambling that your machine will last
far longer than the generally agreed on length for reliable
service, five years. I think it is a very bad gamble, not because
the machine won't last longer, it may well do so, but you are
spending a lot more money now for performance parameters that will
be much less expensive when you replace the computer. And the
typical user, buying a machine around the five hundred dollar
range today, unless their uses change radically, won't have
problems that will require a new machine probably for the life of
the current one.

And what about technological changes itself? If you bought a
machine in the Windows 7 days that was future proofed, in your
opinion at that time, it might not run Windows 10 now. My
understanding is, and if I'm wrong, I'm sure I will be corrected,
that a lot of Windows 7 machines won't run Windows 10 because
Microsoft now requires that different processors be used.

While I don't think that sort of thing will happen if one buys a
machine now for use seven or ten years into the future and are
attempting to future proof it, you are again gambling that newer
technologies wohn't come along that will render your computer less
useable, no matter how you future proof it now.

Gene.
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 6:27 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

This isn't correct. Browsers, and other day to day applications
even, dramatically have increased ram usage, as well as CPU power.
For example, Zoom will only let you blur the background of video
if you have a quad core processor. If you buy a dual core as
opposed to a quad core processor for example, it will struggle at
even the most basic of tasks, and in 5 years, or even in a few
years, programas even screen readers will begin to lag. This
happened with my core I5 4200M.
I thought a dual core was ok, though this was a system gifted to me.
Had I been choosing my own system then, I would've gone for an I7,
and now, this dual core is not even good enough for browsing.
Large websites will freeze it and even when I had it, intensive
apps like finereader will lag significantly independant of ram.
This is exactly I future proofed my next laptop, with a 1tb SSD,
32 gb of ram, and an
r7 4800H processor from AMD, with a 4.2 GHZ boost across all cores.
This should be powerful enough to run anything conceivable in the
next
5 or so years, except maybe AI workloads.
On 10/15/2020 6:07 AM, Gene wrote:
I've seen others, and I believe you, too, make the future proof
argument for buying a more powerful computer than the person's
anticipated needs because it will be useful longer because you
never know when your needs will change. I've always thought such
arguments were not good ones. For one thing, a lot of people will
continue to use computers in about the same ways as now and if
they do use them in more demanding ways, those will not likely
tax the computer if they buy a computer that isn't just barely
powerful enough to do what they want.

Also, technology continues to become more powerful and cost less.
So,
in five years, the projected reliable life of a computer, you
will be able to buy one to meet your needs then for less money
than you are paying now. In addition, though it’s a gamble, many
computers last more than five years, many significantly more.
Every dollar you overspend to be future proofed that you didn't
need because your needs didn't change and all the extra power of
your computer remains unused is increasingly wasted, the longer
your computer lasts.

It makes much more sense to buy a computer that is powerful
enough to meet your current needs well if you don't anticipate
major changes in how you will use your computer and are
reasonably confident that you won't do things in future that will
exceed the ability of the computer.

Spending one-thousand dollars to future proof a machine, just in
case, maybe you use your machine much differently in the future,
when you could spend five hundred dollars today and three hundred
dollars in fived or seven or eight years for another machine that
you would probably use in similar ways as you do now or not much,
is a bad idea.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2020 9:27 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me



Hi Brian,

Just for clerification, I have confirmed 5g signals do exist in
my area for my network. Even without the massive bandwidth, the
lower latency itself will probably result in better quality
improvements.
Also, all versions of the IPhone by default include 5g.


On 10/14/2020 9:18 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 10:11 PM, enes sarıbaş wrote:
One reason, future proofing, I want to get the highest end
version of the IPhone 12, though 5g isn't very wiedespread now,
it will be in three years or so.- I am at a loss as to how doing
this, now, squares with your own earlier assertion, "I think 5g
is more significant for fixed wireless than smartphones."

Going to a 5G device now, when it is obscenely expensive, and
where the ability to exploit 5G is limited to a very few
locations, seems to me to be a supreme waste.

And 3 years is an eternity in the world of technology, and
smartphones in particular, and what's Apple's flagship now, will
be mid-range in 3 years, and much cheaper.

Going to a 5G smartphone now, unless you live in a major
metropolitan area, is locking your money up in a frozen asset you
cannot even use for its intended purpose.







































Re: 5g and me

Gene
 

Even if I used Windows 10, that has nothing to do with drives unless I get a computer with a drive. But I don't think it is relevant that you can't know what it is like to use an SSD drive until you do I except that if you know, you will have the experience to help base your choice on. If I can have that experience, without spending a significant amount of money to have it, fine. I don't know what the expense is now and if it is small, then it may not matter. I'm saying that I wouldn't spend fifty dollars or more for something I don't care about and that wouldn't affect, in any meaningful way, how I use my computer.

Also, in some cases, maybe a little slowness maybe an advantage. People rush so quickly from one article or post in social media to another that they may not have time to think properly about what they read. They may be so involved in rushing and reading that they get a certain rush. It is a cliché today, but a true one to discuss the lessening of attention spans. Maybe having a slower computer, as I used for awhile, gives them more time to relax and think. I'm not taking a pro or con position on that. I'm simply pointing out that the unquestioned assumption that the more speed is better should be questioned.

Even if I had the experience of using an SSD drive, I would still use a mechanical drive if there was a significant cost difference. What I do, most of the time, surfing, listening to streams, e-mail, occasionally working on a document in a word processor, none of these things are cases where a few seconds matter and the activity itself takes up almost all of the time while doing it. If someone wants the emotional satisfaction of having an almost instant response, fine. Most people don't know the emotional feeling of driving a race car. That doesn't mean they shouldn't have a typical car. They don't need to know the feelingg to make a decision based on how they will use it.

The drive question has nothing to do with Windows version, it has to do with speed.

Also, the reason I discuss this topic when it comes up is so that others will see different opinions and be able to decide which arguments they think make more sense. Of course, the individual will decide, but arguments and discussion may be important in some people making a decision.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: chris judge
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 11:21 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

I find it amusing that this topic pops up every so often. We kick it around for a week or so, then it just dies out with no resolution. Personally I have no interest in what others spend their money on. I don't drive and never will, thus I have none of the expenses a driver has.
Every three or four years I treat myself to a new computer, and I usually buy a fairly powerful beast. Last year I chose an i10 processor with 16 gig of ram and a 512 sshd, as well as a 2 TB mechanical drive for data. Did I need all that? As N adult the only person who can, and should be answering that question is me. I would also like to state in closing that those who still believe there is no significant difference between a solid state drive and a mechanical one simply doesn't know what he/she is talking about, because if you have ever experienced the difference you would know, and while windows 10 runs find with 8 gig of ram even while running a screen reader, it runs better with 16. I know because I have both. Gene, I find you like to quote other sources when forming your opinion on things. Since you are still on windows 7, don't you think it's time to join the majority of us and update your technology experiences?



Chris Judge


-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Carolyn Arnold
Sent: October 16, 2020 6:59 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

It sounds like we have different computer needs and purposes, and so we get what suits us. One does not work for all, which is why there is a variety.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io [mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io] On Behalf Of enes saribas
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 5:22 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

It isn't like highway racing Its like buying a 50 dollar work chair instead of a much more comfortable 500 dollar one or so, which you will sit in for 10 hours. You will curse yourself for the few hundred you didn't spend because of the annoying lags, absence of features etc that are standard on premium machines.

On 10/16/2020 6:44 AM, Gene wrote:
If you aren't an ordinary user and your comments may not apply to them
that should be specified in your comments. Also, if these defects are
so terrible, please explain the favorable reviews I found. I simply
don't believe that chincy, fall apart, or severely defective products
are generally produced. That's an excellent way to alienate a lot of
users and get a bad reputation that may taint the whole line,
including more expensive computers among users.

I can't comment on your individual experiences but at the same time,
logic dicctates, as well as the large number of favorable reviews that
can be found for machines in the six to seven hundred dollar range and
the occasional chea[per machine, that your generalizations are incorrect.

Three or four hundred dollars is a lot of money for a lot of people
and buying a thousand dollar or more machine for a lot of people is
like buying a racing car when you will be doing mostly highway driving
and neighborhood driving.

We'll see what other people have to say.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 6:11 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

Hi Gene,

I am not an ordinary user. When I purchase a computer, I will not
settle for anything less than the best. This system, while still able
to run browsers and regular websites ok, struggles and crashes freezes
when running large websites. The difference in processor technology
reached a critically dramatic point when I thhought replacing this was
a good option. Every component on my new machine should at least
provide a 100% improvement or more, even ram speeds, 1600 vs 3200.

Flaws on laptops on that price range are usually intolerable. A cheap
case will not cool properly, and will bend or warp easily. For
example, my laptop's plastic yields under the DVD drive. Cooling isn't
fixable with a cooling pad. Unfortunately with the focus on
portability cooling is taking a back seat with laptops. If fans are
too small for the thermals, or if vents are too small, that throttles down the processor.
For sighted people, the screens of such machines are terrible in
quality. And a USB keyboard adds unneeded bulk to laptops. Look at a
list of best laptops on any sight, and you won't see any machines in
your price range that make those lists. Here is an article which
describes why it makes sense to pay for a better laptop.

https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/dont-be-so-cheap-five-reasons-
you-should-spend-more-on-your-next-laptop/



On 10/16/2020 5:53 AM, Gene wrote:
Few ports won't matter with hubs available and many people may well
not need more than the ports offered. Keyboards, I don't know how
serious a problem that is. My lapptop, I don't know if it is in the
minority, as a very nice keyboard with large keys and a nice feel.
While a keyboard that is more difficult or unpleasant to use than it
should be would be an annoyance, at least when used at home, and
laptops these days often replace desktops, its easy enough to use a
USB keyboard. If this is a problem with many laptops, it is hardly a
major flaw and hardly rises to the level justifying spending hundreds
of dollars more to solve unless you use the laptop portably some or
much of the time and you can't find a portable keyboard that
satisfies your needs. Cooling? If you are talking about laptops,
the person can use a cooling pad. Not a serious problem at all.

I don't know what problems you are referring to by material design.
I'll look at the page, but the objections you have discussed don't
justify spending more on a machine unless you want to use the laptop
while away from home and a solution to a flaw makes its use
unreasonably inconvenient, something I think won't happen with most
of the flaws you have discussed. Then, too, people who live anywhere
near a computer store or Walmart or Best Buy or other such stores can
inspect computers in person. And there are always user reviews and
reviews in computer magazines such as the best laptops for 2020 and
other reviews such as the best laptops for 2020 costing under this or
that amount of money. And there are lists like this, good places to
ask what machines people are using and for evaluations or to ask
about a specific machine or machines you are interested in.

In short, you can pick the flaw that either won't matter to you or
will be easy to work around, given how you use the computer or you
can try to find one without such flaws and I would think some
computers without them perhaps many, if you look, can be found.

While your objection is interesting because it leads to a discussion
of the ways to find a good computer, it doesn't justify spending more
money for the majority of users.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 3:10 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

Hi Gene,

Systems in that price range today have major flaws, iether few ports,
cooling, keyboard, mouse, material design. You can view notebookcheck
and similar technology sites, and read reviews for systems in
different price brackets, and all of those systems will have their
flaws mentioned. Whether these flaws matter though depends on the
flaw or person.

On 10/15/2020 9:04 PM, Gene wrote:
And so are laptops. Your information is wrong. I bought a laptop
about nine years ago, and certainly you would get more power for the
same price now, for about 480 dollars. It has worked very well. It
is not compromised. It doesn't have defects.

And no one said a 500 dollar computer is good for everyone. I'm not
talking about gamers or power users. I'm talking about the majority
of Internet users who stream, surf, use a word processor, record
audio, and do other tasks that are not particularly demanding.


Gene
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 8:44 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

Just because you may consider a system adequate for your own needs
doesn't mean it is for is for everyone. A system like that would
have major compremises. For clerification, I am talking about laptop
prices, desktops in that price range may in fact be midrange. What I
am saying is a minimum system for anyone should have a 6 core or so
CPU, 8 gb or
16 gb of dual channel ram, an I5processor etc.

On 10/15/2020 7:08 PM, Monte Single wrote:
Hi list,
: enes sarıbaş thinks a 500 dollar computer/laptop is less than
adequate for the average user.
He is not the first person on the list to express such thoughts.
The one time I spent more than that for a computer was for the
first one I purchased; that was in the last millennium.
If I spent 500 u s dollars on a computer today, it would be built
with quality parts and be more than adequate for the average
computer user's needs.
: enes sarıbaş go forth and conquer, spend the big bucks.
Hopefully it will stimulate the economy.



-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf
Of Gene
Sent: October 15, 2020 5:29 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

That simply is not true. A lot of people have machines in the five
hundred dollar range and they work fine.

And five hundred dollar machines aren't just barely competent
machines.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 4:14 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

No, I would not buy a 500 dollar machine. In fact, I would exclude
machines below a certain build quality as a matter of principle. Is
saving every little penny really worth it for a device people use
12 hours a day or more? possibly? Those machines usually have more
than one major flaw, and have barebone specs. I think a power user
should get a pc above the 1000 dollar range, and a regular user, if
they can aford it should go around 700-800. The difference between
an entry level, and even midrange computer is very apparent in
build quality, as well as components. A midrange system will
probably have one or two important flaws, but a budget system will
have three or more, iether bad keyboard, cheap material, poor
cooling, etc.

On 10/15/2020 7:15 AM, Gene wrote:
And I suspect you spent over a thousand dollars to do what a five
hundred dollar computer can do, less if on sale ormanufacturer
refurbished. I don't know enough technically to discuss some of
your technical points, but I'll say the following:
The advice I see from computer advisors is that for the majority
of people, purchasing a machine somewhere in the five hundred
dollar range will meet their needs. And even if memory
requirements have gone up for some programs, they haven't gone up
nearly enough that more than 8GB of ram is recommended for the
majority of users. That is the recommendation and it has been for years.

A little money here, a little money there, a more powerful
processor, and pretty soon, you are spending five hundred dollars
or more than you need to and gambling that your machine will last
far longer than the generally agreed on length for reliable
service, five years. I think it is a very bad gamble, not because
the machine won't last longer, it may well do so, but you are
spending a lot more money now for performance parameters that will
be much less expensive when you replace the computer. And the
typical user, buying a machine around the five hundred dollar
range today, unless their uses change radically, won't have
problems that will require a new machine probably for the life of the current one.

And what about technological changes itself? If you bought a
machine in the Windows 7 days that was future proofed, in your
opinion at that time, it might not run Windows 10 now. My
understanding is, and if I'm wrong, I'm sure I will be corrected,
that a lot of Windows 7 machines won't run Windows 10 because
Microsoft now requires that different processors be used.

While I don't think that sort of thing will happen if one buys a
machine now for use seven or ten years into the future and are
attempting to future proof it, you are again gambling that newer
technologies wohn't come along that will render your computer less
useable, no matter how you future proof it now.

Gene.
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 6:27 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me

This isn't correct. Browsers, and other day to day applications
even, dramatically have increased ram usage, as well as CPU power.
For example, Zoom will only let you blur the background of video
if you have a quad core processor. If you buy a dual core as
opposed to a quad core processor for example, it will struggle at
even the most basic of tasks, and in 5 years, or even in a few
years, programas even screen readers will begin to lag. This
happened with my core I5 4200M.
I thought a dual core was ok, though this was a system gifted to me.
Had I been choosing my own system then, I would've gone for an I7,
and now, this dual core is not even good enough for browsing.
Large websites will freeze it and even when I had it, intensive
apps like finereader will lag significantly independant of ram.
This is exactly I future proofed my next laptop, with a 1tb SSD,
32 gb of ram, and an
r7 4800H processor from AMD, with a 4.2 GHZ boost across all cores.
This should be powerful enough to run anything conceivable in the
next
5 or so years, except maybe AI workloads.
On 10/15/2020 6:07 AM, Gene wrote:
I've seen others, and I believe you, too, make the future proof
argument for buying a more powerful computer than the person's
anticipated needs because it will be useful longer because you
never know when your needs will change. I've always thought such
arguments were not good ones. For one thing, a lot of people will
continue to use computers in about the same ways as now and if
they do use them in more demanding ways, those will not likely
tax the computer if they buy a computer that isn't just barely
powerful enough to do what they want.

Also, technology continues to become more powerful and cost less.
So,
in five years, the projected reliable life of a computer, you
will be able to buy one to meet your needs then for less money
than you are paying now. In addition, though it’s a gamble, many
computers last more than five years, many significantly more.
Every dollar you overspend to be future proofed that you didn't
need because your needs didn't change and all the extra power of
your computer remains unused is increasingly wasted, the longer
your computer lasts.

It makes much more sense to buy a computer that is powerful
enough to meet your current needs well if you don't anticipate
major changes in how you will use your computer and are
reasonably confident that you won't do things in future that will
exceed the ability of the computer.

Spending one-thousand dollars to future proof a machine, just in
case, maybe you use your machine much differently in the future,
when you could spend five hundred dollars today and three hundred
dollars in fived or seven or eight years for another machine that
you would probably use in similar ways as you do now or not much,
is a bad idea.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2020 9:27 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] 5g and me



Hi Brian,

Just for clerification, I have confirmed 5g signals do exist in
my area for my network. Even without the massive bandwidth, the
lower latency itself will probably result in better quality improvements.
Also, all versions of the IPhone by default include 5g.


On 10/14/2020 9:18 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 10:11 PM, enes sarıbaş wrote:
One reason, future proofing, I want to get the highest end
version of the IPhone 12, though 5g isn't very wiedespread now,
it will be in three years or so.- I am at a loss as to how doing
this, now, squares with your own earlier assertion, "I think 5g
is more significant for fixed wireless than smartphones."

Going to a 5G device now, when it is obscenely expensive, and
where the ability to exploit 5G is limited to a very few
locations, seems to me to be a supreme waste.

And 3 years is an eternity in the world of technology, and
smartphones in particular, and what's Apple's flagship now, will
be mid-range in 3 years, and much cheaper.

Going to a 5G smartphone now, unless you live in a major
metropolitan area, is locking your money up in a frozen asset you
cannot even use for its intended purpose.







































Re: ram and SSD not detected by new laptop

enes sarıbaş
 

An update. So I swapped out the ram sticks, and both firmly inserted. The SSD also fit snugly. However when I plugged in a flash drive to install windows, and powered on the pc,  the fans spun up at max settings for a while, then stopped. When they spun up again, the logo briefly appeared, however, after I powered up the computer again, now the system will not display anything on screen. The fans spin up, then spin down periodically until I turn it off. Does anyone know of a solution for this? None of the indicators on the computer light up.

On 10/17/2020 12:57 AM, enes sarıbaş via groups.io wrote:
Hi all,

So when purchasing a laptop I  opted to buy my own ram modules and SSD. However, as I was inserting the modules for the first time, I  spent quite a bit of time trying to figure out the correct direction to insert them. However, when I did insert one, it firmly clicked into place. The second one only inserted backside up in the same position. The clips  latched on and hold it, but it seems to buldge a bit, and the clips didn't audibly click. When inserting the SSD, the  SSD slot was covered by a piece of plastic wrap. I unscrewed the screw, inserted into the MDOC2 slot and screwed the screw back on. However, the SSd was loose, and the plastic came loose. My question is,  what did I do wrong exactly with the SSD? And is that plastic wrap needed? I inserted it again, and it seems to be ok,  but the dirve isn't detected by bios iether. And only one of the ram modules is detected. What can I do about this? Do I pull the clips apart and press downward to seat the memory module. I assume it was inserted correctly, as it isn't possible apparently to insert ram the wrong way.




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