Date   

Re: google home number

Laz
 

The statement of a fact is not whining Brian, at least not in most
people's minds. Although one should be more forthcoming which would
show where one is speaking from when dictating to others.

Laz

On 10/19/20, Brian Vogel <britechguy@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 02:52 PM, Laz wrote:


he's not a fellow blind person. brian Vogel is a sighted person.
-
Which I have never claimed to be nor made any attempt to hide the fact I'm
fully sighted. The fact that I'm sighted is completely irrelevant.

I presume individuals who are blind are just that, blind, not stupid,
incapable, or unable to use reference material like any sighted person
would. Activating a link and taking a look at a reference page, when
offered, is something that I expect anyone, sighted, blind, or in-between,
to do. It's not too much to ask nor is it unreasonable to ask, either.

Those who seem to think my being sighted is relevant to what I expect from
anyone are mistaken. I don't expect anything more or less, and if you don't
like what I expect you can feel free to ignore my offerings rather than
whine about them.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

*Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely
fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.*

~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com






Re: google home number

Michael Mote
 

Well said Brian.

 

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Monday, October 19, 2020 3:11 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] google home number

 

On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 02:52 PM, Laz wrote:

he's not a fellow blind person. brian Vogel is a sighted person.

-
Which I have never claimed to be nor made any attempt to hide the fact I'm fully sighted.  The fact that I'm sighted is completely irrelevant.

I presume individuals who are blind are just that, blind, not stupid, incapable, or unable to use reference material like any sighted person would.  Activating a link and taking a look at a reference page, when offered, is something that I expect anyone, sighted, blind, or in-between, to do.  It's not too much to ask nor is it unreasonable to ask, either.

Those who seem to think my being sighted is relevant to what I expect from anyone are mistaken.  I don't expect anything more or less, and if you don't like what I expect you can feel free to ignore my offerings rather than whine about them.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.

        ~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com


Re: Admin. the discussion about accessibility and other topics

Gene
 

I should add that I would have locked the topic sooner but I wasn't following the list for a few hours.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Gene via groups.io
Sent: Monday, October 19, 2020 2:15 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: [TechTalk] Admin. the discussion about accessibility and other topics

this topic is taking a lot of time and space on the list. It has also moved
into areas such as politics. While a certain amount of discussion of
accessibility as an issue, and I even let a little politics slip in at rare
times if it is a very small part of a larger thread, keeps the list lively,
such wide ranging discussions easily become divisive and a lot of people
don't want to see so much traffic. I am therefore closing the topic.
Anyone who wishes may discuss this issue and pretty much anything else on
the chat list, the address for joining is provided in the footers of every
message.

Gene, owner


Re: google home number

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 03:18 PM, Gerald Levy wrote:
If he lacks the patience to deal with blind computer users like us, then he should probably never have joined this list in the first place. 
-
That's not what I lack the patience for, and you know that darned well.  So, stop, just stop, the insulting nonsense!
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.

        ~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com


Re: google home number

Gerald Levy
 


Yes, Laz, I am well aware that he is sighted.  But that is no excuse for treating fellow blind list members with such scorn and disrespect.  If he lacks the patience to deal with blind computer users like us, then he should probably never have joined this list in the first place. 


Gerald



On 10/19/2020 2:52 PM, Laz wrote:
Ah, but that's where you're wrong Gerald; he's not a fellow blind
person. brian Vogel is a sighted person.

Stay safe,

Laz

On 10/19/20, Gerald Levy via groups.io
<bwaylimited@...> wrote:
As usual, your response is arrogant and condescending.  You accused me
earlier of being "nasty",  for which I apologize.  But telling a fellow
list member to esentially go "look it up herself" is equally as nasty.
If she could find the phone number herself, she wouldn't be asking for
help on this list in the first place.  Try to be a little more patient
and understanding with fellow blind list members who may not beas as
adept as you at searching the web for information before you post a
response.   .


Gerald



On 10/19/2020 12:57 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 12:46 PM, Pamela Dominguez wrote:

    Yes, but you didn’t give anybody the number.

-
Because I expect that adults will go to that page, and search on
"Phone."  We're not children here.  There are also other contact
options that may not have been considered that are available there.

You can't always get what you want, but you certainly got what you
needed if you're willing to spend two freakin' seconds to review
Google's own source material.  Do so.

--

Brian -Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

*Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they
rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.*

~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com












Admin. the discussion about accessibility and other topics

Gene
 

this topic is taking a lot of time and space on the list. It has also moved into areas such as politics. While a certain amount of discussion of accessibility as an issue, and I even let a little politics slip in at rare times if it is a very small part of a larger thread, keeps the list lively, such wide ranging discussions easily become divisive and a lot of people don't want to see so much traffic. I am therefore closing the topic. Anyone who wishes may discuss this issue and pretty much anything else on the chat list, the address for joining is provided in the footers of every message.

Gene, owner


Re: google home number

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 02:52 PM, Laz wrote:
he's not a fellow blind person. brian Vogel is a sighted person.
-
Which I have never claimed to be nor made any attempt to hide the fact I'm fully sighted.  The fact that I'm sighted is completely irrelevant.

I presume individuals who are blind are just that, blind, not stupid, incapable, or unable to use reference material like any sighted person would.  Activating a link and taking a look at a reference page, when offered, is something that I expect anyone, sighted, blind, or in-between, to do.  It's not too much to ask nor is it unreasonable to ask, either.

Those who seem to think my being sighted is relevant to what I expect from anyone are mistaken.  I don't expect anything more or less, and if you don't like what I expect you can feel free to ignore my offerings rather than whine about them.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.

        ~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com


locked Re: Amazon: Am I the only one that feels this way?

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 02:14 PM, Norman wrote:
they should also grant those less scared of covid the right to not where masks, stay home, go to events, etc.
-
I suggest you read a bit more on both novel pathogens and on liberty and freedom (as opposed to license, which is what you propose).  John Stuart Mill, in On Liberty, had this to say, "liberty . . . of framing the plan of our life to suit our own character; of doing as we like, subject to such consequences as may follow; without impediment from our fellow-creatures, so long as what we do does not harm them even though they should think our conduct foolish, perverse, or wrong. . ., within the same limits, of combination among individuals; freedom to unite, for any purpose not involving harm to others: the persons combining being supposed to be of full age, and not forced or deceived."

Note well, "so long as what we do does not harm them [our fellow-creatures]" and, "not forced or deceived."

If you honestly believe that not wearing masks when in public, social distancing, and other pandemic related steps are necessary to protect others from harm, you are literally ignoring all available data.  And if you believe that, for whatever reason, you have been deceived.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.

        ~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com


locked Re: Amazon: Am I the only one that feels this way?

Gene
 

First, the person is in a living home. You have no idea, or have not indicated or proven that she can't get help from a resident or staff member.

Of course, there will be people placed in difficult circumstances because of the pandemic or for other reasons. That has nothing to do with your original statements concerning accessibility and what you are discussing now has nothing to do with it either. A sighted person who knows little or nothing about computer technology except how to use it for some things would be just as unable to set up the computer, connect it to the router or connect to a wireless connection as the blind person and the blind person could do these things if they have knowledge.

You have not made a case for your contention that the Google Play is an example of regression on accessibility, nor have you demonstrated that the device is generally inaccessible. You have stated that setting it up requires other devices and you haven't demonstrated that those devices are inaccessible or unreasonably expensive. You have also not dealt with the fact that the Google Home, once it is set up, is completely accessible. You haven't said the app used to set up the device isn't accessible. You have therefore, not established one premise or contention in your argument about the inaccessibility of the device.

I don't know if your argument about businesses moving backward regarding accessibility is true in general, which is a question I don't know about, not having seen or conducted any sort of surveys.

My feeling, and its just a feeling based on this or that which I've heard and not a statement of fact, is that actually more companies are more concerned with accessibility and that legal action and a little more increase in ;public awareness has actually led to a little improvement in what is accessible.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Gerald Levy via groups.io
Sent: Monday, October 19, 2020 11:07 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Amazon: Am I the only one that feels this way?






As usual, you don't know what you are talking about. I have ordered three computers from them, so I know what I'm talking about, including the Windows 7 desktop on which I am composing this message. Read CFB's policy very carefully. When you order a computer from them, you must pledge that you have a sighted helper on hand to help you set it up. They assume that most blind consumers lack the expertise and tetechnical skills to do it all by themselves. I had my techie friend visit me and help me set it up long before the pandemic started. Do you happen to live in one of those red zones upstate in Rochester, which means even tougher lockdown restrictions? My ladyfriend happens to live in a red zone through no fault of her own. So here's my challenge to you. If I have my tech-averse ladyfriend contact you by phone, and she goes ahead and orders a computer from CFB, and she is even allowed to have it delivered to her apartment,which may not even be possible, would you be able to patiently explain over the phone how to connect all those cables without sight and get it up and running with JAWS? Never mind that MS may automatically start installing Windows 10 feature update 2004 as soon as she plugs it in, leaving her without speech for God knows how long, and no way for someone to view the monitor screen to tell her what's going on, or encounter a myriad of other unforeseen problems which would leave her with a computer that is unusable. Would you be able to help her set it up using telepathy? I think not. BTW. how is your Smart Vision phone working out? Does it still work? Too bad you can't buy one any longer.




Gerald





on


10/19/2020 10:46 AM, Ann Parsons wrote:
Hi all,

Ah Eeyore, the glass is always half empty isn't it?

Advise her to contact Computers For The Blind in TX. "Please call our Customer Service number at 214-340-6328 to see how we can help you."

http://www.computersfortheblind.org

These people put all the software you need and set the computer up, so all you need to do is plug it in. They're currently shipping win10, but learning that isn't a problem. She'll get the boxes, unpack them and just put everything together. I'm sure an aide is up to that task.

Yes, they are refurbished, but they have an excellent reputation. She can pay about $200.00 and be off and running again.

Anyone who's paying $8,000.00 a month can afford computer training via phone. I wouldn't be surprised if one of her aides isn't savvy enough to set up her email for her. Comes with Jaws for a year, LibreOffice and some other stuff, probably Thunderbird.

Ann P.

Original message:


To amplify my point a littlefurther, I have a blind, technophobic ladyfriend who lives in an assisted living facility. She has been in complete lockdown since mid-March because of Covid restrictions. Visitors are not permitted to enter her tiny studio apartment, except for facility staff and medical personell who are wearing protective garb and equipment. She is not allowed to leave her apartment for any reason. Meals are left outside her door. It's like living in solitary confinement in a maximum security prison. All this for $8000 a month. Her ten-year old Windows 7 computeris beginning to show signs of old age. Who is going to set up a new computer for her if the old one dies? The management of the facility has already told her that if her computer, which she is totally dependent on to communicate with the outside word, finally dies, she will just have to learn to live without it. Thank goodness, she still has a working land line phone, because her Jitterbug flip phone has also been giving her trouble. So getting sighted tech help may be difficult to impossible right now for many blind computer and cell phone users.


Gerald



On 10/19/2020 9:37 AM, Gerald Levy via groups.io wrote:



This is not quite true. As a blind person, you are most definitely entitled to a special car and"chauffeur". It's called paratransit, and it is a service availabel for reasonable fare in all major cities includingChicago. Non-disabled residents cannot take advantage of this service. So what if the car isn't a Rolls Royce? It will still take you where you want to go. So your argument isspecious. And by the way, sighted consumers who have dexterity or other health issues that make using a touchscreen impossible are just as entitled to accessible smart phones with tactile keypads or voice command capability as blind consumers. And where do you find sighted help to set up a smart speaker for you, anyway? My sighted elderly next-door neighbor wouldn't know a Google Home mini from a kumquat. Besides, because of the surging pandemic in most parts of the country, it may be difficult to impossible to find a tech-savvy sighted person who is willing to visit your home right now. My tech savvy friend would be happy to set one up for me. Except that he is currently in lockdown and quarantine for the foreseeable future, and refuses to use public transit to visit me, because he believes it would be risky. And good luck trying to get help from a social services agency.



Gerald



On 10/19/2020 8:31 AM, Gene wrote:


And I can't afford a chauffeur. Am I entitled, because I'm blind and can't afford one, to have one provided, on 24 hour call on accessibility grounds? given the amount of money I have access to on my fixed income, a new car would be an economic burden and a used car would be something I wouldn't want to spend money on. Am I entitled to one or a free state owned car and chauffeur?



And what about all the sighted people who can't afford new or reasonably afford used cars? Do we, as blind people deserve one on accessibility grounds while denying cars to everyone else because they don't have a disability?


At some point, the law stops being able to solve every conceivable problem, and trying to do so may yield perverse or manifestly unfair or unjust results.



And what about sighted people who can't or won't use cellular phones? Should they have an accessibility cause of action in this case? Accessibility law doesn't and has never said, that every conceivable disability problem must be addressed. It uses, as the law so often does the reasonable standard. Accessibility is to be achieved if it does not place an undue burden on the entity in question. Sometimes, the disabled person has to find a way to solve a problem.



If someone sets up a Google Voice, it can be used from then on accessibly by the blind person. And I believe the question of using an IPhone out of the box has been discussed on lists I follow before and blind people can start voiceover out of the box without sighted assistance.



Gene

On 10/19/2020 6:57 AM, Gerald Levy via groups.io wrote:



An Apple IPhone starts at $700. To me, this is expensive. Accessible? I understand thatthe the newly released IPhone 12 has no physical home button, so how would a blind consumer turn on Voice Over without sighted help? Oh yes, I can buy a refurbed IPhone 7 or 8 online for a few hundred dollars, still expensive by my standards, that does have a physical home button, but probably not at an Apple store. And kindly provide the make and model of an Android smart phone that has physical buttons that can be used to set up one of these smart speakers. I am a senior who finds touchscreens difficult to impossible to master for a variety of reasons, and so like many other blind consumers, prefers a cell phone witha tactile keypad.


Gerald



On 10/19/2020 7:02 AM, John Dowling wrote:


Gerald,
I'm going to have to disagree with you there.
It's very easy to set up both an Amazon echo and google home. There respected apps on both ios and android are very accessible.
May I ask, what smartphones were you referring to when you said expensive and inaccessible.
Thanks,
John.


Once you replace negative thoughts with positive ones, you'll start having positive results. -Willie Nelson


On Oct 19, 2020, at 6:46 AM, Gerald Levy via groups.io mailto:bwaylimited=verizon.net@groups.io mailto:bwaylimited=verizon.net@groups.io wrote:






The bottom line is that both the Amazon Echo and Google Home smart speakers were never really designed with accessibility in mind in the first place. To set up a Google Home device, you need an expensive smart phone, which, itself may not be all that accessible. The Amazon Echo can allegedly be set up by computer, but I have not seen any rports from blind consumers successfully setting it up this way without sighted help. Large tech companies seem to be sliding backwards when it comes to accessibility. For instance, PayPal, which claims that they are dedicated to making their web site accessible, no longer offers telephone customer support for disabled customers who encounter problems with the site. The blindness advocacy organizations have been uncharacteristically quiet about this issue. Despite the problems you have described, they have never demonstrated any inclination to take legal action against these companies to force them to make their products, apps and customer support more accessible and blind-friendly. Probably because their wimpy lawyers are afraid to challenge big bad Amazon and Google and the likes of Jeff Bezos and Eric Schmidt. They are only interested in litigation if they see a big payday for themselves. For instace, years ago when the NFB successfully sued Target to force them to make their web site more accessible, they pocketed $250K in punitive damages, and since then have not bothered to regularly inspect the Target site to ensure that it remains accessible. In factthe Target site, at least from my perspective, has become progressively less accessible since thesettlement. So we blind consumers really have nobody fighting on our behalf for better accessibility.

Gerald



On 10/19/2020 3:58 AM, Leedy Diane Bomar wrote:


I believe in inclusion. Amazon has improved significantly over the last ten years in this area. We can now use their hardward devices, including those with screens. But, they still have a long way to go as far as their app and web site are concerned.

My issue is a mindset and culture concern. We are still considered a "special" group. In other words, they still think that a separate website is what we SHOULD prefer, though very few use it. I believe that most of you would agree the using the app and website should be designed correctly so that it is equally accessible and usable for blind and sighted users. Separation is never equal.

So, why is it that when one calls the departments that provide customer service on using their hardware devices, which include accessible features such as voice view, the reps are not trained on those modes and want to send us to the Accessibility Department? Tonight when trying to set up my new Echo Show, the rep insisted that I could only use it by visually reading the screen. She was adamant about this fact, though I knew that wasn't the case. The standard help file they send out has no reference to using the device non-visually, not even a link! The Accessibility department is a misnomer, in fact, a rep from that department referred to it as "search and rescue" which may be a more apt title. They certainly don't have the tools to allow them to use their apps with voice on either iOS or Android! At best they can give descriptions of products and put them in your cart, which is often useful.

But, am I wrong in believing that the device reps should be trained in using those devices by a blind person? Shouldn't they even know that it is possible, and research how to set it up?

I had this issue with my first Kindle Fire, three years ago, and raised quite a ruckus about it, and hoped it had been resolved. But, it obiously has not. Tonight, I spoke with a supervisor who confirmed that the reps are not trained or even told that a blind person can make the screen be accessible by voice output.

Am I the only one that is bothered by this attitude and its results? Am I the only one who writes to the Accessibility development team with complaints and suggestions. Several years ago, I even wrote to Jeff Bezos, and was contacted by a moron from their Executive team, who was supposedly in charge of "accessibility". He said things like: "they were really lucky to find me." "Why don't you just use the special access site?" "I used to have a blind friend" and worst of all was going to hire Freedom Scientific, who he had met at CSUN, to come in and give JAWS training to a group of developers while blindfolded! I asked him why they needed to be blindfolded, instead of just turning off the screen, and his reply was "but then, they could see the keyboard!" I pointed out that the developers needed training on coding for accessibility.more than learning JAWS, but he was a know-it-all. He refused to attend consumer conventions, saying that he had no time for that. I don't know if he is still there, but, he caused more problems than fixing anything.

Anyway, I am sorry that this seems like a useless rant, but, I would like input from others, of how to address this mindset problem. Is it just me, and an unrealistic belief in full inclusion, or, is it a problem for others?

Thanks,


locked Re: Amazon: Am I the only one that feels this way?

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 02:41 PM, Pamela Dominguez wrote:
Yes, but why aren’t the people in the accessability department trained?
-
In most of my experience they are trained, and trained well.  But, they may not be trained in each and everything that gets thrown at them accessibility software wise.

I would imagine that JAWS as the screen reader would be the one they know best, and are expected to know best, just because it has a massive portion of the business market with a not insubstantial portion of the home user market.  They may or may not know NVDA, Narrator (though I expect that to change), ZoomText, Fusion, etc., etc., etc.

And I can guarantee you that anyone sitting at a help desk does not have infinite knowledge of anything, but they should have the resources to find a lot more than a random user could, and relatively quickly.  But sometimes "relatively quickly" will still mean that they'll need to get back to you on that.

I find those working in the support departments related to accessibility software to be way more than marginally more knowledgeable than your random help desk person, who very often knows only how to follow a script.

It's a sad fact, though, that technical support is often neither.  That's been the case for as long as I've been in the industry, which started in 1985.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.

        ~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com


Re: google home number

Laz
 

Ah, but that's where you're wrong Gerald; he's not a fellow blind
person. brian Vogel is a sighted person.

Stay safe,

Laz

On 10/19/20, Gerald Levy via groups.io
<bwaylimited=verizon.net@groups.io> wrote:

As usual, your response is arrogant and condescending. You accused me
earlier of being "nasty", for which I apologize. But telling a fellow
list member to esentially go "look it up herself" is equally as nasty.
If she could find the phone number herself, she wouldn't be asking for
help on this list in the first place. Try to be a little more patient
and understanding with fellow blind list members who may not beas as
adept as you at searching the web for information before you post a
response. .


Gerald



On 10/19/2020 12:57 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 12:46 PM, Pamela Dominguez wrote:

Yes, but you didn’t give anybody the number.

-
Because I expect that adults will go to that page, and search on
"Phone." We're not children here. There are also other contact
options that may not have been considered that are available there.

You can't always get what you want, but you certainly got what you
needed if you're willing to spend two freakin' seconds to review
Google's own source material. Do so.

--

Brian -Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

*Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they
rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.*

~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com






locked Re: Amazon: Am I the only one that feels this way?

Norman
 

It really has nothing to do with the thread. However, as the one who set this covid subthread in motion i'm not going to apoligize for it. I'm so sick and tired of people politicizing covid. Yes, it's a virus, Yes, it's killed people, and i'm sorry about that. However, both the right and left wing political parties in the US and other places in the world are taking advantage of it to push there agendas. Sorry, left wing liberals, life isn't fair and never will be. Using this to help so called needy people at the expense of the hard working people in american is just going to lead to this countries downfall. Sorry, right wing, While i do agree with a lot of your views, not all your ideas will work either.

I want to move on from covid, no more masks that don't help enough to make there harmful side affects worth it, No more case counts that are more meaningless by the day, no more death numbers which are even worse.

If you want to continue this on the chat subgroup, have at me. I welcome the debate.







On 10/19/2020 2:32 PM, Michael Mote wrote:

Could someone please tell me what Covid19 has to do with the original subject of this thread? Knock it off guys. Take your political views somewhere else, but not here. Not my list, but this is ridiculous.

 

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gerald Levy via groups.io
Sent: Monday, October 19, 2020 2:28 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Amazon: Am I the only one that feels this way?

 

 

So then you believe the President, who claims that there have been fewer than 10,000 deaths related to the Corona virus?  Where's the evidence for his ridiculous assertion?

 

Gerald

 

 

On 10/19/2020 2:17 PM, brian wrote:

Yes it is just fake news.

Brian Sackrider

On 10/19/2020 10:51 AM, chris judge wrote:

So do you believe that there haven't been over 8000000 cases in the US, and
over 200000 deaths?
Is this just fake news?

Chris Judge


-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Rob
Hudson
Sent: October 19, 2020 11:38 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Amazon: Am I the only one that feels this way?

That's easy. They want to turn covid into the new boogeyman. First it was
terrorism, now it's the big baaaaad virus. Call me a wild eyed conspiracy
theorist if you want, but I think they're are deliberately trying to foster
an atmosphere of fear.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Norman" <lists@...>
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 10:27:29 -0400
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Amazon: Am I the only one that feels this way?


I'm going to go on a bit of an off topic rant here, appoligies everyone.


  > She has been in complete lockdown since mid-March because of Covid
restrictions.  Visitors are not permitted to enter her tiny studio
apartment, except for facility staff and medical personell who are
wearing protective garb and equipment.  She is not allowed to leave
her apartment for any reason.  Meals are left outside her door.  It's
like living in solitary confinement in a maximum security prison. All
this for $8000 a month.


This is complete and utter stupidity the way some of these poor old
people are locked up. I saw a headline somewhere a month or so ago
that was talking about the older people in homes dying because of

loneliness.

I believe such talk, i'd be climing the walls if anyone tried that on
me. How can people still justify these living conditions? i could
understand the restrictions this spring but not anymore. I suspect if
you asked the people in homes what there preference would be 90 % of
them would want to take there chances with covid.

Why can't we just lift most of the covid restrictions and go back to a
normal life?


JMT.





On 10/19/2020 10:07 AM, Gerald Levy via groups.io wrote:


To amplify my point a littlefurther, I have a blind, technophobic
ladyfriend who lives in an assisted living facility.  She has been
in complete lockdown since mid-March because of Covid restrictions.
Visitors are not permitted to enter her tiny studio apartment,
except for facility staff and medical personell who are wearing
protective garb and equipment.  She is not allowed to leave her
apartment for any reason.  Meals are left outside her door.  It's
like living in solitary confinement in a maximum security prison.
All this for $8000 a month.   Her ten-year old Windows 7 computeris
beginning to show signs of old age.  Who is going to set up a new
computer for her if the old one dies?  The management of the
facility has already told her that if her computer, which she is
totally dependent on to communicate with the outside word, finally
dies, she will just have to learn to live without it. Thank
goodness, she still has a working land line phone, because her
Jitterbug flip phone has also been giving her trouble.  So getting
sighted tech help may be difficult to impossible right now for many

blind computer and cell phone users.


Gerald



On 10/19/2020 9:37 AM, Gerald Levy via groups.io wrote:


This is not quite true. As a blind person, you are most definitely
entitled to a special car and"chauffeur".  It's called paratransit,
and it is  a service availabel for reasonable fare in all major
cities includingChicago.  Non-disabled residents cannot take
advantage of this service.  So what if the car isn't a Rolls Royce?
It will still take you where you want to go.  So your argument
isspecious.   And by the way, sighted consumers who have dexterity
or other health issues that make using a touchscreen impossible are
just as entitled to accessible smart phones with tactile keypads or
voice command capability as blind consumers. And where do you find
sighted help to set up a smart speaker for you, anyway?  My sighted
elderly next-door neighbor wouldn't know a Google Home mini from a

kumquat.

Besides, because of the surging pandemic in most parts of the
country, it may be difficult to impossible to find a tech-savvy
sighted person who is willing  to visit your home right now. My
tech savvy friend would be happy to set one up for me.  Except that
he is currently in lockdown and quarantine for the foreseeable
future, and refuses to use public  transit to visit me, because he
believes it would  be risky. And good luck trying to get help from
a social services agency.


Gerald



On 10/19/2020 8:31 AM, Gene wrote:

And I can't afford a chauffeur.  Am I entitled, because I'm blind
and can't afford one, to have one provided, on 24 hour call on
accessibility grounds?  given the amount of money I have access to
on my fixed income, a new car would be an economic burden and a
used car would be something I wouldn't want to spend money on.  Am
I entitled to one or a free state owned car and chauffeur?


And what about all the sighted people who can't afford new or
reasonably afford used cars?  Do we, as blind people deserve one
on accessibility grounds while denying cars to everyone else
because they don't have a disability?


At some point, the law stops being able to solve every conceivable
problem, and trying to do so may yield perverse or manifestly
unfair or unjust results.


And what about sighted people who can't or won't use cellular
phones?  Should they have an accessibility cause of action in this
case?  Accessibility law doesn't and has never said, that every
conceivable disability problem must be addressed.  It uses, as the
law so often does the reasonable standard.  Accessibility is to be
achieved if it does not place an undue burden on the entity in
question. Sometimes, the disabled person has to find a way to
solve a problem.


If someone sets up a Google Voice, it can be used from then on
accessibly by the blind person.  And I believe the question of
using an IPhone out of the box has been discussed on lists I
follow before and  blind people can start voiceover out of the box
without sighted assistance.


Gene

On 10/19/2020 6:57 AM, Gerald Levy via groups.io wrote:


An Apple IPhone starts at $700.  To me, this is expensive.
Accessible?  I understand thatthe the newly released IPhone 12
has no physical home button, so how would a blind consumer turn
on Voice Over without sighted help? Oh yes, I can buy a refurbed
IPhone 7 or 8 online for a few hundred dollars, still expensive
by my standards, that does have a physical home button, but
probably not at an Apple store.  And kindly provide the make and
model of an Android smart phone that has physical buttons that
can be used to set up one of these smart speakers.  I am a senior
who finds touchscreens difficult to impossible to master for a
variety of reasons, and so like many other blind consumers,
prefers a cell phone witha tactile keypad.


Gerald



On 10/19/2020 7:02 AM, John Dowling wrote:

Gerald,
I'm going to have to disagree with you there.
It's very easy to set up both an Amazon echo and google home.
There respected apps on both ios and android are very accessible.
May I ask, what smartphones were you referring to when you said
expensive and inaccessible.
Thanks,
John.

Once you replace negative thoughts with positive ones,  you'll
start having positive results. -Willie Nelson


On Oct 19, 2020, at 6:46 AM, Gerald Levy via groups.io
<bwaylimited@...> wrote:

?


The bottom line is that both the Amazon Echo and Google Home
smart speakers were never really designed with accessibility in
mind in the first place.  To set up a Google Home device, you
need an expensive smart phone, which, itself may not be all
that accessible.  The Amazon Echo can allegedly be set up by
computer, but I have not seen any rports from blind consumers
successfully
   setting it up this way without sighted help. Large tech
companies seem to be sliding backwards when it comes to
accessibility.  For instance, PayPal, which claims that they
are dedicated to making their web site accessible, no longer
offers telephone customer support for disabled customers who
encounter problems with the site. The blindness advocacy
organizations have been uncharacteristically quiet about this
issue. Despite the problems you have described, they have never
demonstrated any inclination to take legal action against these
companies to force them to make their products, apps and
customer support more accessible and blind-friendly.  Probably
because their wimpy lawyers are afraid to challenge big bad
Amazon and Google and the likes of Jeff Bezos and Eric Schmidt.
They are only interested in litigation if they see a big payday
for themselves.  For instace, years ago when the NFB
successfully sued Target to force them to make their web site
more accessible, they pocketed $250K in punitive damages, and
since then have not bothered to regularly inspect the Target
site to ensure that it remains accessible.  In factthe Target
site, at least from my perspective, has become progressively
less accessible since thesettlement.  So we blind consumers
really have nobody fighting on our behalf for better accessibility.

Gerald



On 10/19/2020 3:58 AM, Leedy Diane Bomar wrote:

I believe in inclusion. Amazon has improved significantly over
the last ten years in this area. We can now use their hardward
devices, including those with screens. But, they still have a
long way to go as far as their app and web site are concerned.

My issue is a mindset and culture concern. We are still
considered a "special" group. In other words, they still think
that a separate website is what we SHOULD prefer, though very
few use it. I believe that most of you would agree the using
the app and website should be designed correctly so that it is
equally accessible and usable for blind and sighted users.
Separation is never equal.

So, why is it that when one calls the departments that provide
customer service on using their hardware devices, which
include accessible features such as voice view, the reps are
not trained on those modes and want to send us to the
Accessibility Department? Tonight when trying to set up my new
Echo Show, the rep insisted that I could only use it by
visually reading the screen. She was adamant about this fact,
though I knew that wasn't the case. The standard help file
they send out has no reference to using the device
non-visually, not even a link! The Accessibility department is
a misnomer, in fact, a rep from that department referred to it
as "search and rescue" which may be a more apt title. They
certainly don't have the tools to allow them to use their apps
with voice on either iOS or Android! At best they can give
descriptions of products and put them in your cart, which is often

useful.

But, am I wrong in believing that the device reps should be
trained in using those devices by a blind person? Shouldn't
they even know that it is possible, and research how to set it up?

I had this issue with my first Kindle Fire, three years ago,
and raised quite a ruckus about it, and hoped it had been

resolved.

But, it obiously has not. Tonight, I spoke with a supervisor
who confirmed that the reps are not trained or even told that
a blind person can make the screen be accessible by voice output.

Am I the only one that is bothered by this attitude and its
results? Am I the only one who writes to the Accessibility
development team with complaints and suggestions. Several
years ago, I even wrote to Jeff Bezos, and was contacted by a
moron from their Executive team, who was supposedly in charge
of "accessibility". He said things like: "they were really
lucky to find me." "Why don't you just use the special access
site?" "I used to have a blind friend" and worst of all was
going to hire Freedom Scientific, who he had met at CSUN, to
come in and give JAWS training to a group of developers while
blindfolded! I asked him why they needed to be blindfolded,
instead of just turning off the screen, and his reply was "but
then, they could see the keyboard!" I pointed out that the
developers needed training on coding for accessibility.more
than learning JAWS, but he was a know-it-all. He refused to
attend consumer conventions, saying that he had no time for
that. I don't know if he is still there, but, he caused more
problems than fixing anything.

Anyway, I am sorry that this seems like a useless rant, but, I
would like input from others, of how to address this mindset
problem. Is it just me, and an unrealistic belief in full
inclusion, or, is it a problem for others?

Thanks,




















locked Re: Amazon: Am I the only one that feels this way?

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 02:32 PM, Michael Mote wrote:
Take your political views somewhere else, but not here. Not my list, but this is ridiculous.
-
Not that I don't agree with you, broadly, but there is a "Mute this Topic" link at the end of messages for a reason.  This isn't the first, nor will it be the last, to go off the rails.  One of the great advantages of Groups.io is that you can selectively mute topics.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.

        ~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com


locked Re: Amazon: Am I the only one that feels this way?

Andy
 

I really use Amazon a lot, and I am having no issues.
 
Andy
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, October 19, 2020 12:58 AM
Subject: [TechTalk] Amazon: Am I the only one that feels this way?

I believe in inclusion. Amazon has improved significantly over the last ten years in this area. We can now use their hardward devices, including those with screens. But, they still have a long way to go as far as their app and web site are concerned.

My issue is a mindset and culture concern. We are still considered a "special" group. In other words, they still think that a separate website is what we SHOULD prefer, though very few use it. I believe that most of you would agree the using the app and website should be designed correctly so that it is equally accessible and usable for blind and sighted users. Separation is never equal.

So, why is it that when one calls the departments that provide customer service on using their hardware devices, which include accessible features such as voice view, the reps are not trained on those modes and want to send us to the Accessibility Department? Tonight when trying to set up my new Echo Show, the rep insisted that I could only use it by visually reading the screen. She was adamant about this fact, though I knew that wasn't the case. The standard help file they send out has no reference to using the device non-visually, not even a link! The Accessibility department is a misnomer, in fact, a rep from that department referred to it as "search and rescue" which may be a more apt title. They certainly don't have the tools to allow them to use their apps with voice on either iOS or Android! At best they can give descriptions of products and put them in your cart, which is often useful.

But, am I wrong in believing that the device reps should be trained in using those devices by a blind person? Shouldn't they even know that it is possible, and research how to set it up?

I had this issue with my first Kindle Fire, three years ago, and raised quite a ruckus about it, and hoped it had been resolved. But, it obiously has not. Tonight, I spoke with a supervisor who confirmed that the reps are not trained or even told that a blind person can make the screen be accessible by voice output. 

Am I the only one that is bothered by this attitude and its results? Am I the only one who writes to the Accessibility development team with complaints and suggestions. Several years ago, I even wrote to Jeff Bezos, and was contacted by a moron from their Executive team, who was supposedly in charge of "accessibility". He said things like: "they were really lucky to find me." "Why don't you just use the special access site?" "I used to have a blind friend" and worst of all was going to hire Freedom Scientific, who he had met at CSUN, to come in and give JAWS training to a group of developers while blindfolded! I asked him why they needed to be blindfolded, instead of just turning off the screen, and his reply was "but then, they could see the keyboard!" I pointed out that the developers needed training on coding for accessibility.more than learning JAWS, but he was a know-it-all. He refused to attend consumer conventions, saying that he had no time for that. I don't know if he is still there, but, he caused more problems than fixing anything.

Anyway, I am sorry that this seems like a useless rant, but, I would like input from others, of how to address this mindset problem. Is it just me, and an unrealistic belief in full inclusion, or, is it a problem for others?

Thanks,



locked Re: Amazon: Am I the only one that feels this way?

Monte Single
 

Hi Ron,

 

I need to keep the waters clearly muddied.

Canada has provinces where the u s has states.

The free computer that is available to residents of Ontario does not exist in Saskatchewan.

I asked the CNIB for a used Iphone  a year and a half ago; I’m still waiting.

Yes, we do have a nanational health care program, but not a national tech care program.

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ron Canazzi
Sent: October 19, 2020 8:47 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Amazon: Am I the only one that feels this way?

 

Hi Mitch,

Yeah, but you live in one of those damnable socialist countries that we in the United States are systematically programmed to hate.  I don't know if this is nationwide, but a friend of mine in Ontario says he is entitled (yes entitled) to a new computer every five years as a 'quality of life' enhancement. Perish the thought that that commie idea should ever be enacted in the USA. Why Joe Stalin would be resurrected by Satan the Devil and would rape all the girls and kill all the men; or is it rape all the men and kill all the girls?!

On 10/19/2020 10:33 AM, Mich Verrier wrote:

Hi for peoplelike Gerald and others who say that the I phone is expencive and refuse to use them do to cost or other things there are programs where you can get a re furbished phone or there are programs hear in Canada run through the cnib cald the phone it forward program where people who can’t afforde a new I phone cn still get one that might ot be the newest but it will still be accessible. Maybe those of you in the US should see if the nfb or acb have any kind of aprogram like that to help you get a apple I phone or something. And to those who are saying that I can’t use a I phone with since it is ot a phone with buttens there are also braille and tacktile over lays that you can get tohelp with this as well. So there are still ways to use it if you need that tacktile feedback but I phones are able to be used by blind people quite well with things like voice over etc. just my thoughts. From Mich.

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ron Canazzi
Sent: October 19, 2020 10:29 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Amazon: Am I the only one that feels this way?

 

Boy those arguments are slippery slope extremist in nature!

On 10/19/2020 8:31 AM, Gene wrote:

And I can't afford a chauffeur.  Am I entitled, because I'm blind and can't afford one, to have one provided, on 24 hour call on accessibility grounds?  given the amount of money I have access to on my fixed income, a new car would be an economic burden and a used car would be something I wouldn't want to spend money on.  Am I entitled to one or a free state owned car and chauffeur?

 

And what about all the sighted people who can't afford new or reasonably afford used cars?  Do we, as blind people deserve one on accessibility grounds while denying cars to everyone else because they don't have a disability?

 

At some point, the law stops being able to solve every conceivable problem, and trying to do so may yield perverse or manifestly unfair or unjust results. 

 

And what about sighted people who can't or won't use cellular phones?  Should they have an accessibility cause of action in this case?  Accessibility law doesn't and has never said, that every conceivable disability problem must be addressed.  It uses, as the law so often does the reasonable standard.  Accessibility is to be achieved if it does not place an undue burden on the entity in question.  Sometimes, the disabled person has to find a way to solve a problem. 

 

If someone sets up a Google Voice, it can be used from then on accessibly by the blind person.  And I believe the question of using an IPhone out of the box has been discussed on lists I follow before and  blind people can start voiceover out of the box without sighted assistance. 

 

Gene

On 10/19/2020 6:57 AM, Gerald Levy via groups.io wrote:

 

An Apple IPhone starts at $700.  To me, this is expensive.  Accessible?  I understand thatthe the newly released IPhone 12  has no physical home button, so how would a blind consumer turn on Voice Over without sighted help? Oh yes, I can buy a refurbed IPhone 7 or 8 online for a few hundred dollars, still expensive by my standards, that does have a physical home button, but probably not at an Apple store.  And kindly provide the make and model of an Android smart phone that has physical buttons that can be used to set up one of these smart speakers.  I am a senior who finds touchscreens difficult to impossible to master for a variety of reasons, and so like many other blind consumers, prefers a cell phone witha tactile keypad.

 

Gerald

 

 

On 10/19/2020 7:02 AM, John Dowling wrote:

Gerald,

I'm going to have to disagree with you there.

It's very easy to set up both an Amazon echo and google home. There respected apps on both ios and android are very accessible.

May I ask, what smartphones were you referring to when you said expensive and inaccessible.

Thanks,

John.

Once you replace negative thoughts with positive ones,  you'll start having positive results. -Willie Nelson

 

On Oct 19, 2020, at 6:46 AM, Gerald Levy via groups.io <bwaylimited@...> wrote:



 

The bottom line is that both the Amazon Echo and Google Home smart speakers were never really designed with accessibility in mind in the first place.  To set up a Google Home device, you need an expensive smart phone, which, itself may not be all that accessible.  The Amazon Echo can allegedly be set up by computer, but I have not seen any rports from blind consumers successfully   setting it up this way without sighted help. Large tech companies seem to be sliding backwards when it comes to accessibility.  For instance, PayPal, which claims that they are dedicated to making their web site accessible, no longer offers telephone customer support for disabled customers who encounter problems with the site. The blindness advocacy organizations have been uncharacteristically quiet about this issue.  Despite the problems you have described, they have never demonstrated any inclination to take legal action against these companies to force them to make their products, apps and customer support more accessible and blind-friendly.  Probably because their wimpy lawyers are afraid to challenge big bad Amazon and Google and the likes of Jeff Bezos and Eric Schmidt.  They are only interested in litigation if they see a big payday for themselves.  For instace, years ago when the NFB successfully sued Target to force them to make their web site more accessible, they pocketed $250K in punitive damages, and since then have not bothered to regularly inspect the Target site to ensure that it remains accessible.  In factthe Target site, at least from my perspective, has become progressively less accessible since thesettlement.  So we blind consumers really have nobody fighting on our behalf for better accessibility.

 

Gerald

 

 

On 10/19/2020 3:58 AM, Leedy Diane Bomar wrote:

I believe in inclusion. Amazon has improved significantly over the last ten years in this area. We can now use their hardward devices, including those with screens. But, they still have a long way to go as far as their app and web site are concerned.

 

My issue is a mindset and culture concern. We are still considered a "special" group. In other words, they still think that a separate website is what we SHOULD prefer, though very few use it. I believe that most of you would agree the using the app and website should be designed correctly so that it is equally accessible and usable for blind and sighted users. Separation is never equal.

 

So, why is it that when one calls the departments that provide customer service on using their hardware devices, which include accessible features such as voice view, the reps are not trained on those modes and want to send us to the Accessibility Department? Tonight when trying to set up my new Echo Show, the rep insisted that I could only use it by visually reading the screen. She was adamant about this fact, though I knew that wasn't the case. The standard help file they send out has no reference to using the device non-visually, not even a link! The Accessibility department is a misnomer, in fact, a rep from that department referred to it as "search and rescue" which may be a more apt title. They certainly don't have the tools to allow them to use their apps with voice on either iOS or Android! At best they can give descriptions of products and put them in your cart, which is often useful.

 

But, am I wrong in believing that the device reps should be trained in using those devices by a blind person? Shouldn't they even know that it is possible, and research how to set it up?

 

I had this issue with my first Kindle Fire, three years ago, and raised quite a ruckus about it, and hoped it had been resolved. But, it obiously has not. Tonight, I spoke with a supervisor who confirmed that the reps are not trained or even told that a blind person can make the screen be accessible by voice output. 

 

Am I the only one that is bothered by this attitude and its results? Am I the only one who writes to the Accessibility development team with complaints and suggestions. Several years ago, I even wrote to Jeff Bezos, and was contacted by a moron from their Executive team, who was supposedly in charge of "accessibility". He said things like: "they were really lucky to find me." "Why don't you just use the special access site?" "I used to have a blind friend" and worst of all was going to hire Freedom Scientific, who he had met at CSUN, to come in and give JAWS training to a group of developers while blindfolded! I asked him why they needed to be blindfolded, instead of just turning off the screen, and his reply was "but then, they could see the keyboard!" I pointed out that the developers needed training on coding for accessibility.more than learning JAWS, but he was a know-it-all. He refused to attend consumer conventions, saying that he had no time for that. I don't know if he is still there, but, he caused more problems than fixing anything.

 

Anyway, I am sorry that this seems like a useless rant, but, I would like input from others, of how to address this mindset problem. Is it just me, and an unrealistic belief in full inclusion, or, is it a problem for others?

 

Thanks,

 

 

 

-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"



-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


locked Re: Amazon: Am I the only one that feels this way?

Pamela Dominguez
 

Yes, but why aren’t the people in the accessability department trained?  Pam.
 

Sent: Monday, October 19, 2020 1:11 PM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Amazon: Am I the only one that feels this way?
 
Leedy Diane Bomar wrote:
So, why is it that when one calls the departments that provide customer service on using their hardware devices, which include accessible features such as voice view, the reps are not trained on those modes and want to send us to the Accessibility Department?
-
Do you not understand several things:
1.  Blind people are a tiny minority of the population, and, by extension, compose a tiny number of support calls.

2.  A great deal of what blind people call about is issues with accessibility, it is not cost effective, nor efficient, to try to train every support rep in an area that they may very well never actually have a question on over a period of years.

3. How darned lucky you are that there now exist dedicated tech support teams for disability related/accessibility related issues?

For heaven's sake, not only is it available, but it's available for no cost, and from those who specialize in it at an organization!  You couldn't please some people no matter how hard you tried!  The level of support now available, at no cost, and with subject-matter specialists to those using disability-related software is something that those of us in the general public would give our eye teeth to have available to us for non-disability related issues with the same things, but we don't, and we won't, either.  The degree of whining and willful metaphorical blindness in complaining about having dedicated teams of disability related tech support specialists available is jaw-dropping!
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.

        ~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com




AVG logo

This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com



locked Re: Amazon: Am I the only one that feels this way?

brian
 

    Yes I do I don't believe lies.

Brian Sackrider

On 10/19/2020 2:27 PM, Gerald Levy via groups.io wrote:


So then you believe the President, who claims that there have been fewer than 10,000 deaths related to the Corona virus?  Where's the evidence for his ridiculous assertion?


Gerald



On 10/19/2020 2:17 PM, brian wrote:
Yes it is just fake news.

Brian Sackrider

On 10/19/2020 10:51 AM, chris judge wrote:
So do you believe that there haven't been over 8000000 cases in the US, and
over 200000 deaths?
Is this just fake news?

Chris Judge


-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Rob
Hudson
Sent: October 19, 2020 11:38 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Amazon: Am I the only one that feels this way?

That's easy. They want to turn covid into the new boogeyman. First it was
terrorism, now it's the big baaaaad virus. Call me a wild eyed conspiracy
theorist if you want, but I think they're are deliberately trying to foster
an atmosphere of fear.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Norman" <lists@...>
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 10:27:29 -0400
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Amazon: Am I the only one that feels this way?

I'm going to go on a bit of an off topic rant here, appoligies everyone.


  > She has been in complete lockdown since mid-March because of Covid
restrictions.  Visitors are not permitted to enter her tiny studio
apartment, except for facility staff and medical personell who are
wearing protective garb and equipment.  She is not allowed to leave
her apartment for any reason.  Meals are left outside her door.  It's
like living in solitary confinement in a maximum security prison. All
this for $8000 a month.


This is complete and utter stupidity the way some of these poor old
people are locked up. I saw a headline somewhere a month or so ago
that was talking about the older people in homes dying because of
loneliness.
I believe such talk, i'd be climing the walls if anyone tried that on
me. How can people still justify these living conditions? i could
understand the restrictions this spring but not anymore. I suspect if
you asked the people in homes what there preference would be 90 % of
them would want to take there chances with covid.

Why can't we just lift most of the covid restrictions and go back to a
normal life?


JMT.





On 10/19/2020 10:07 AM, Gerald Levy via groups.io wrote:

To amplify my point a littlefurther, I have a blind, technophobic
ladyfriend who lives in an assisted living facility.  She has been
in complete lockdown since mid-March because of Covid restrictions.
Visitors are not permitted to enter her tiny studio apartment,
except for facility staff and medical personell who are wearing
protective garb and equipment.  She is not allowed to leave her
apartment for any reason.  Meals are left outside her door.  It's
like living in solitary confinement in a maximum security prison.
All this for $8000 a month.   Her ten-year old Windows 7 computeris
beginning to show signs of old age.  Who is going to set up a new
computer for her if the old one dies?  The management of the
facility has already told her that if her computer, which she is
totally dependent on to communicate with the outside word, finally
dies, she will just have to learn to live without it. Thank
goodness, she still has a working land line phone, because her
Jitterbug flip phone has also been giving her trouble.  So getting
sighted tech help may be difficult to impossible right now for many
blind computer and cell phone users.

Gerald



On 10/19/2020 9:37 AM, Gerald Levy via groups.io wrote:

This is not quite true. As a blind person, you are most definitely
entitled to a special car and"chauffeur".  It's called paratransit,
and it is  a service availabel for reasonable fare in all major
cities includingChicago.  Non-disabled residents cannot take
advantage of this service.  So what if the car isn't a Rolls Royce?
It will still take you where you want to go.  So your argument
isspecious.   And by the way, sighted consumers who have dexterity
or other health issues that make using a touchscreen impossible are
just as entitled to accessible smart phones with tactile keypads or
voice command capability as blind consumers. And where do you find
sighted help to set up a smart speaker for you, anyway?  My sighted
elderly next-door neighbor wouldn't know a Google Home mini from a
kumquat.
Besides, because of the surging pandemic in most parts of the
country, it may be difficult to impossible to find a tech-savvy
sighted person who is willing  to visit your home right now. My
tech savvy friend would be happy to set one up for me.  Except that
he is currently in lockdown and quarantine for the foreseeable
future, and refuses to use public  transit to visit me, because he
believes it would  be risky. And good luck trying to get help from
a social services agency.


Gerald



On 10/19/2020 8:31 AM, Gene wrote:
And I can't afford a chauffeur.  Am I entitled, because I'm blind
and can't afford one, to have one provided, on 24 hour call on
accessibility grounds?  given the amount of money I have access to
on my fixed income, a new car would be an economic burden and a
used car would be something I wouldn't want to spend money on.  Am
I entitled to one or a free state owned car and chauffeur?


And what about all the sighted people who can't afford new or
reasonably afford used cars?  Do we, as blind people deserve one
on accessibility grounds while denying cars to everyone else
because they don't have a disability?


At some point, the law stops being able to solve every conceivable
problem, and trying to do so may yield perverse or manifestly
unfair or unjust results.


And what about sighted people who can't or won't use cellular
phones?  Should they have an accessibility cause of action in this
case?  Accessibility law doesn't and has never said, that every
conceivable disability problem must be addressed.  It uses, as the
law so often does the reasonable standard.  Accessibility is to be
achieved if it does not place an undue burden on the entity in
question. Sometimes, the disabled person has to find a way to
solve a problem.


If someone sets up a Google Voice, it can be used from then on
accessibly by the blind person.  And I believe the question of
using an IPhone out of the box has been discussed on lists I
follow before and  blind people can start voiceover out of the box
without sighted assistance.


Gene

On 10/19/2020 6:57 AM, Gerald Levy via groups.io wrote:

An Apple IPhone starts at $700.  To me, this is expensive.
Accessible?  I understand thatthe the newly released IPhone 12
has no physical home button, so how would a blind consumer turn
on Voice Over without sighted help? Oh yes, I can buy a refurbed
IPhone 7 or 8 online for a few hundred dollars, still expensive
by my standards, that does have a physical home button, but
probably not at an Apple store.  And kindly provide the make and
model of an Android smart phone that has physical buttons that
can be used to set up one of these smart speakers.  I am a senior
who finds touchscreens difficult to impossible to master for a
variety of reasons, and so like many other blind consumers,
prefers a cell phone witha tactile keypad.


Gerald



On 10/19/2020 7:02 AM, John Dowling wrote:
Gerald,
I'm going to have to disagree with you there.
It's very easy to set up both an Amazon echo and google home.
There respected apps on both ios and android are very accessible.
May I ask, what smartphones were you referring to when you said
expensive and inaccessible.
Thanks,
John.

Once you replace negative thoughts with positive ones,  you'll
start having positive results. -Willie Nelson

On Oct 19, 2020, at 6:46 AM, Gerald Levy via groups.io
<bwaylimited@...> wrote:

?


The bottom line is that both the Amazon Echo and Google Home
smart speakers were never really designed with accessibility in
mind in the first place.  To set up a Google Home device, you
need an expensive smart phone, which, itself may not be all
that accessible.  The Amazon Echo can allegedly be set up by
computer, but I have not seen any rports from blind consumers
successfully
   setting it up this way without sighted help. Large tech
companies seem to be sliding backwards when it comes to
accessibility.  For instance, PayPal, which claims that they
are dedicated to making their web site accessible, no longer
offers telephone customer support for disabled customers who
encounter problems with the site. The blindness advocacy
organizations have been uncharacteristically quiet about this
issue. Despite the problems you have described, they have never
demonstrated any inclination to take legal action against these
companies to force them to make their products, apps and
customer support more accessible and blind-friendly.  Probably
because their wimpy lawyers are afraid to challenge big bad
Amazon and Google and the likes of Jeff Bezos and Eric Schmidt.
They are only interested in litigation if they see a big payday
for themselves.  For instace, years ago when the NFB
successfully sued Target to force them to make their web site
more accessible, they pocketed $250K in punitive damages, and
since then have not bothered to regularly inspect the Target
site to ensure that it remains accessible.  In factthe Target
site, at least from my perspective, has become progressively
less accessible since thesettlement.  So we blind consumers
really have nobody fighting on our behalf for better accessibility.

Gerald



On 10/19/2020 3:58 AM, Leedy Diane Bomar wrote:
I believe in inclusion. Amazon has improved significantly over
the last ten years in this area. We can now use their hardward
devices, including those with screens. But, they still have a
long way to go as far as their app and web site are concerned.

My issue is a mindset and culture concern. We are still
considered a "special" group. In other words, they still think
that a separate website is what we SHOULD prefer, though very
few use it. I believe that most of you would agree the using
the app and website should be designed correctly so that it is
equally accessible and usable for blind and sighted users.
Separation is never equal.

So, why is it that when one calls the departments that provide
customer service on using their hardware devices, which
include accessible features such as voice view, the reps are
not trained on those modes and want to send us to the
Accessibility Department? Tonight when trying to set up my new
Echo Show, the rep insisted that I could only use it by
visually reading the screen. She was adamant about this fact,
though I knew that wasn't the case. The standard help file
they send out has no reference to using the device
non-visually, not even a link! The Accessibility department is
a misnomer, in fact, a rep from that department referred to it
as "search and rescue" which may be a more apt title. They
certainly don't have the tools to allow them to use their apps
with voice on either iOS or Android! At best they can give
descriptions of products and put them in your cart, which is often
useful.
But, am I wrong in believing that the device reps should be
trained in using those devices by a blind person? Shouldn't
they even know that it is possible, and research how to set it up?

I had this issue with my first Kindle Fire, three years ago,
and raised quite a ruckus about it, and hoped it had been
resolved.
But, it obiously has not. Tonight, I spoke with a supervisor
who confirmed that the reps are not trained or even told that
a blind person can make the screen be accessible by voice output.

Am I the only one that is bothered by this attitude and its
results? Am I the only one who writes to the Accessibility
development team with complaints and suggestions. Several
years ago, I even wrote to Jeff Bezos, and was contacted by a
moron from their Executive team, who was supposedly in charge
of "accessibility". He said things like: "they were really
lucky to find me." "Why don't you just use the special access
site?" "I used to have a blind friend" and worst of all was
going to hire Freedom Scientific, who he had met at CSUN, to
come in and give JAWS training to a group of developers while
blindfolded! I asked him why they needed to be blindfolded,
instead of just turning off the screen, and his reply was "but
then, they could see the keyboard!" I pointed out that the
developers needed training on coding for accessibility.more
than learning JAWS, but he was a know-it-all. He refused to
attend consumer conventions, saying that he had no time for
that. I don't know if he is still there, but, he caused more
problems than fixing anything.

Anyway, I am sorry that this seems like a useless rant, but, I
would like input from others, of how to address this mindset
problem. Is it just me, and an unrealistic belief in full
inclusion, or, is it a problem for others?

Thanks,
























locked Re: Amazon: Am I the only one that feels this way?

Michael Mote
 

Could someone please tell me what Covid19 has to do with the original subject of this thread? Knock it off guys. Take your political views somewhere else, but not here. Not my list, but this is ridiculous.

 

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gerald Levy via groups.io
Sent: Monday, October 19, 2020 2:28 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Amazon: Am I the only one that feels this way?

 

 

So then you believe the President, who claims that there have been fewer than 10,000 deaths related to the Corona virus?  Where's the evidence for his ridiculous assertion?

 

Gerald

 

 

On 10/19/2020 2:17 PM, brian wrote:

Yes it is just fake news.

Brian Sackrider

On 10/19/2020 10:51 AM, chris judge wrote:

So do you believe that there haven't been over 8000000 cases in the US, and
over 200000 deaths?
Is this just fake news?

Chris Judge


-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Rob
Hudson
Sent: October 19, 2020 11:38 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Amazon: Am I the only one that feels this way?

That's easy. They want to turn covid into the new boogeyman. First it was
terrorism, now it's the big baaaaad virus. Call me a wild eyed conspiracy
theorist if you want, but I think they're are deliberately trying to foster
an atmosphere of fear.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Norman" <lists@...>
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 10:27:29 -0400
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Amazon: Am I the only one that feels this way?


I'm going to go on a bit of an off topic rant here, appoligies everyone.


  > She has been in complete lockdown since mid-March because of Covid
restrictions.  Visitors are not permitted to enter her tiny studio
apartment, except for facility staff and medical personell who are
wearing protective garb and equipment.  She is not allowed to leave
her apartment for any reason.  Meals are left outside her door.  It's
like living in solitary confinement in a maximum security prison. All
this for $8000 a month.


This is complete and utter stupidity the way some of these poor old
people are locked up. I saw a headline somewhere a month or so ago
that was talking about the older people in homes dying because of

loneliness.

I believe such talk, i'd be climing the walls if anyone tried that on
me. How can people still justify these living conditions? i could
understand the restrictions this spring but not anymore. I suspect if
you asked the people in homes what there preference would be 90 % of
them would want to take there chances with covid.

Why can't we just lift most of the covid restrictions and go back to a
normal life?


JMT.





On 10/19/2020 10:07 AM, Gerald Levy via groups.io wrote:


To amplify my point a littlefurther, I have a blind, technophobic
ladyfriend who lives in an assisted living facility.  She has been
in complete lockdown since mid-March because of Covid restrictions.
Visitors are not permitted to enter her tiny studio apartment,
except for facility staff and medical personell who are wearing
protective garb and equipment.  She is not allowed to leave her
apartment for any reason.  Meals are left outside her door.  It's
like living in solitary confinement in a maximum security prison.
All this for $8000 a month.   Her ten-year old Windows 7 computeris
beginning to show signs of old age.  Who is going to set up a new
computer for her if the old one dies?  The management of the
facility has already told her that if her computer, which she is
totally dependent on to communicate with the outside word, finally
dies, she will just have to learn to live without it. Thank
goodness, she still has a working land line phone, because her
Jitterbug flip phone has also been giving her trouble.  So getting
sighted tech help may be difficult to impossible right now for many

blind computer and cell phone users.


Gerald



On 10/19/2020 9:37 AM, Gerald Levy via groups.io wrote:


This is not quite true. As a blind person, you are most definitely
entitled to a special car and"chauffeur".  It's called paratransit,
and it is  a service availabel for reasonable fare in all major
cities includingChicago.  Non-disabled residents cannot take
advantage of this service.  So what if the car isn't a Rolls Royce?
It will still take you where you want to go.  So your argument
isspecious.   And by the way, sighted consumers who have dexterity
or other health issues that make using a touchscreen impossible are
just as entitled to accessible smart phones with tactile keypads or
voice command capability as blind consumers. And where do you find
sighted help to set up a smart speaker for you, anyway?  My sighted
elderly next-door neighbor wouldn't know a Google Home mini from a

kumquat.

Besides, because of the surging pandemic in most parts of the
country, it may be difficult to impossible to find a tech-savvy
sighted person who is willing  to visit your home right now. My
tech savvy friend would be happy to set one up for me.  Except that
he is currently in lockdown and quarantine for the foreseeable
future, and refuses to use public  transit to visit me, because he
believes it would  be risky. And good luck trying to get help from
a social services agency.


Gerald



On 10/19/2020 8:31 AM, Gene wrote:

And I can't afford a chauffeur.  Am I entitled, because I'm blind
and can't afford one, to have one provided, on 24 hour call on
accessibility grounds?  given the amount of money I have access to
on my fixed income, a new car would be an economic burden and a
used car would be something I wouldn't want to spend money on.  Am
I entitled to one or a free state owned car and chauffeur?


And what about all the sighted people who can't afford new or
reasonably afford used cars?  Do we, as blind people deserve one
on accessibility grounds while denying cars to everyone else
because they don't have a disability?


At some point, the law stops being able to solve every conceivable
problem, and trying to do so may yield perverse or manifestly
unfair or unjust results.


And what about sighted people who can't or won't use cellular
phones?  Should they have an accessibility cause of action in this
case?  Accessibility law doesn't and has never said, that every
conceivable disability problem must be addressed.  It uses, as the
law so often does the reasonable standard.  Accessibility is to be
achieved if it does not place an undue burden on the entity in
question. Sometimes, the disabled person has to find a way to
solve a problem.


If someone sets up a Google Voice, it can be used from then on
accessibly by the blind person.  And I believe the question of
using an IPhone out of the box has been discussed on lists I
follow before and  blind people can start voiceover out of the box
without sighted assistance.


Gene

On 10/19/2020 6:57 AM, Gerald Levy via groups.io wrote:


An Apple IPhone starts at $700.  To me, this is expensive.
Accessible?  I understand thatthe the newly released IPhone 12
has no physical home button, so how would a blind consumer turn
on Voice Over without sighted help? Oh yes, I can buy a refurbed
IPhone 7 or 8 online for a few hundred dollars, still expensive
by my standards, that does have a physical home button, but
probably not at an Apple store.  And kindly provide the make and
model of an Android smart phone that has physical buttons that
can be used to set up one of these smart speakers.  I am a senior
who finds touchscreens difficult to impossible to master for a
variety of reasons, and so like many other blind consumers,
prefers a cell phone witha tactile keypad.


Gerald



On 10/19/2020 7:02 AM, John Dowling wrote:

Gerald,
I'm going to have to disagree with you there.
It's very easy to set up both an Amazon echo and google home.
There respected apps on both ios and android are very accessible.
May I ask, what smartphones were you referring to when you said
expensive and inaccessible.
Thanks,
John.

Once you replace negative thoughts with positive ones,  you'll
start having positive results. -Willie Nelson


On Oct 19, 2020, at 6:46 AM, Gerald Levy via groups.io
<bwaylimited@...> wrote:

?


The bottom line is that both the Amazon Echo and Google Home
smart speakers were never really designed with accessibility in
mind in the first place.  To set up a Google Home device, you
need an expensive smart phone, which, itself may not be all
that accessible.  The Amazon Echo can allegedly be set up by
computer, but I have not seen any rports from blind consumers
successfully
   setting it up this way without sighted help. Large tech
companies seem to be sliding backwards when it comes to
accessibility.  For instance, PayPal, which claims that they
are dedicated to making their web site accessible, no longer
offers telephone customer support for disabled customers who
encounter problems with the site. The blindness advocacy
organizations have been uncharacteristically quiet about this
issue. Despite the problems you have described, they have never
demonstrated any inclination to take legal action against these
companies to force them to make their products, apps and
customer support more accessible and blind-friendly.  Probably
because their wimpy lawyers are afraid to challenge big bad
Amazon and Google and the likes of Jeff Bezos and Eric Schmidt.
They are only interested in litigation if they see a big payday
for themselves.  For instace, years ago when the NFB
successfully sued Target to force them to make their web site
more accessible, they pocketed $250K in punitive damages, and
since then have not bothered to regularly inspect the Target
site to ensure that it remains accessible.  In factthe Target
site, at least from my perspective, has become progressively
less accessible since thesettlement.  So we blind consumers
really have nobody fighting on our behalf for better accessibility.

Gerald



On 10/19/2020 3:58 AM, Leedy Diane Bomar wrote:

I believe in inclusion. Amazon has improved significantly over
the last ten years in this area. We can now use their hardward
devices, including those with screens. But, they still have a
long way to go as far as their app and web site are concerned.

My issue is a mindset and culture concern. We are still
considered a "special" group. In other words, they still think
that a separate website is what we SHOULD prefer, though very
few use it. I believe that most of you would agree the using
the app and website should be designed correctly so that it is
equally accessible and usable for blind and sighted users.
Separation is never equal.

So, why is it that when one calls the departments that provide
customer service on using their hardware devices, which
include accessible features such as voice view, the reps are
not trained on those modes and want to send us to the
Accessibility Department? Tonight when trying to set up my new
Echo Show, the rep insisted that I could only use it by
visually reading the screen. She was adamant about this fact,
though I knew that wasn't the case. The standard help file
they send out has no reference to using the device
non-visually, not even a link! The Accessibility department is
a misnomer, in fact, a rep from that department referred to it
as "search and rescue" which may be a more apt title. They
certainly don't have the tools to allow them to use their apps
with voice on either iOS or Android! At best they can give
descriptions of products and put them in your cart, which is often

useful.

But, am I wrong in believing that the device reps should be
trained in using those devices by a blind person? Shouldn't
they even know that it is possible, and research how to set it up?

I had this issue with my first Kindle Fire, three years ago,
and raised quite a ruckus about it, and hoped it had been

resolved.

But, it obiously has not. Tonight, I spoke with a supervisor
who confirmed that the reps are not trained or even told that
a blind person can make the screen be accessible by voice output.

Am I the only one that is bothered by this attitude and its
results? Am I the only one who writes to the Accessibility
development team with complaints and suggestions. Several
years ago, I even wrote to Jeff Bezos, and was contacted by a
moron from their Executive team, who was supposedly in charge
of "accessibility". He said things like: "they were really
lucky to find me." "Why don't you just use the special access
site?" "I used to have a blind friend" and worst of all was
going to hire Freedom Scientific, who he had met at CSUN, to
come in and give JAWS training to a group of developers while
blindfolded! I asked him why they needed to be blindfolded,
instead of just turning off the screen, and his reply was "but
then, they could see the keyboard!" I pointed out that the
developers needed training on coding for accessibility.more
than learning JAWS, but he was a know-it-all. He refused to
attend consumer conventions, saying that he had no time for
that. I don't know if he is still there, but, he caused more
problems than fixing anything.

Anyway, I am sorry that this seems like a useless rant, but, I
would like input from others, of how to address this mindset
problem. Is it just me, and an unrealistic belief in full
inclusion, or, is it a problem for others?

Thanks,




















locked Re: Amazon: Am I the only one that feels this way?

Holly
 

Jim:
 
I am afraid you will never convince people who are so set in their own beliefs that they refuse to have an open mind.


locked Re: Amazon: Am I the only one that feels this way?

Gerald Levy
 


So then you believe the President, who claims that there have been fewer than 10,000 deaths related to the Corona virus?  Where's the evidence for his ridiculous assertion?


Gerald



On 10/19/2020 2:17 PM, brian wrote:
Yes it is just fake news.

Brian Sackrider

On 10/19/2020 10:51 AM, chris judge wrote:
So do you believe that there haven't been over 8000000 cases in the US, and
over 200000 deaths?
Is this just fake news?

Chris Judge


-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Rob
Hudson
Sent: October 19, 2020 11:38 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Amazon: Am I the only one that feels this way?

That's easy. They want to turn covid into the new boogeyman. First it was
terrorism, now it's the big baaaaad virus. Call me a wild eyed conspiracy
theorist if you want, but I think they're are deliberately trying to foster
an atmosphere of fear.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Norman" <lists@...>
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 10:27:29 -0400
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Amazon: Am I the only one that feels this way?

I'm going to go on a bit of an off topic rant here, appoligies everyone.


  > She has been in complete lockdown since mid-March because of Covid
restrictions.  Visitors are not permitted to enter her tiny studio
apartment, except for facility staff and medical personell who are
wearing protective garb and equipment.  She is not allowed to leave
her apartment for any reason.  Meals are left outside her door.  It's
like living in solitary confinement in a maximum security prison. All
this for $8000 a month.


This is complete and utter stupidity the way some of these poor old
people are locked up. I saw a headline somewhere a month or so ago
that was talking about the older people in homes dying because of
loneliness.
I believe such talk, i'd be climing the walls if anyone tried that on
me. How can people still justify these living conditions? i could
understand the restrictions this spring but not anymore. I suspect if
you asked the people in homes what there preference would be 90 % of
them would want to take there chances with covid.

Why can't we just lift most of the covid restrictions and go back to a
normal life?


JMT.





On 10/19/2020 10:07 AM, Gerald Levy via groups.io wrote:

To amplify my point a littlefurther, I have a blind, technophobic
ladyfriend who lives in an assisted living facility.  She has been
in complete lockdown since mid-March because of Covid restrictions.
Visitors are not permitted to enter her tiny studio apartment,
except for facility staff and medical personell who are wearing
protective garb and equipment.  She is not allowed to leave her
apartment for any reason.  Meals are left outside her door.  It's
like living in solitary confinement in a maximum security prison.
All this for $8000 a month.   Her ten-year old Windows 7 computeris
beginning to show signs of old age.  Who is going to set up a new
computer for her if the old one dies?  The management of the
facility has already told her that if her computer, which she is
totally dependent on to communicate with the outside word, finally
dies, she will just have to learn to live without it. Thank
goodness, she still has a working land line phone, because her
Jitterbug flip phone has also been giving her trouble.  So getting
sighted tech help may be difficult to impossible right now for many
blind computer and cell phone users.

Gerald



On 10/19/2020 9:37 AM, Gerald Levy via groups.io wrote:

This is not quite true. As a blind person, you are most definitely
entitled to a special car and"chauffeur".  It's called paratransit,
and it is  a service availabel for reasonable fare in all major
cities includingChicago.  Non-disabled residents cannot take
advantage of this service.  So what if the car isn't a Rolls Royce?
It will still take you where you want to go.  So your argument
isspecious.   And by the way, sighted consumers who have dexterity
or other health issues that make using a touchscreen impossible are
just as entitled to accessible smart phones with tactile keypads or
voice command capability as blind consumers. And where do you find
sighted help to set up a smart speaker for you, anyway?  My sighted
elderly next-door neighbor wouldn't know a Google Home mini from a
kumquat.
Besides, because of the surging pandemic in most parts of the
country, it may be difficult to impossible to find a tech-savvy
sighted person who is willing  to visit your home right now. My
tech savvy friend would be happy to set one up for me.  Except that
he is currently in lockdown and quarantine for the foreseeable
future, and refuses to use public  transit to visit me, because he
believes it would  be risky. And good luck trying to get help from
a social services agency.


Gerald



On 10/19/2020 8:31 AM, Gene wrote:
And I can't afford a chauffeur.  Am I entitled, because I'm blind
and can't afford one, to have one provided, on 24 hour call on
accessibility grounds?  given the amount of money I have access to
on my fixed income, a new car would be an economic burden and a
used car would be something I wouldn't want to spend money on.  Am
I entitled to one or a free state owned car and chauffeur?


And what about all the sighted people who can't afford new or
reasonably afford used cars?  Do we, as blind people deserve one
on accessibility grounds while denying cars to everyone else
because they don't have a disability?


At some point, the law stops being able to solve every conceivable
problem, and trying to do so may yield perverse or manifestly
unfair or unjust results.


And what about sighted people who can't or won't use cellular
phones?  Should they have an accessibility cause of action in this
case?  Accessibility law doesn't and has never said, that every
conceivable disability problem must be addressed.  It uses, as the
law so often does the reasonable standard.  Accessibility is to be
achieved if it does not place an undue burden on the entity in
question. Sometimes, the disabled person has to find a way to
solve a problem.


If someone sets up a Google Voice, it can be used from then on
accessibly by the blind person.  And I believe the question of
using an IPhone out of the box has been discussed on lists I
follow before and  blind people can start voiceover out of the box
without sighted assistance.


Gene

On 10/19/2020 6:57 AM, Gerald Levy via groups.io wrote:

An Apple IPhone starts at $700.  To me, this is expensive.
Accessible?  I understand thatthe the newly released IPhone 12
has no physical home button, so how would a blind consumer turn
on Voice Over without sighted help? Oh yes, I can buy a refurbed
IPhone 7 or 8 online for a few hundred dollars, still expensive
by my standards, that does have a physical home button, but
probably not at an Apple store.  And kindly provide the make and
model of an Android smart phone that has physical buttons that
can be used to set up one of these smart speakers.  I am a senior
who finds touchscreens difficult to impossible to master for a
variety of reasons, and so like many other blind consumers,
prefers a cell phone witha tactile keypad.


Gerald



On 10/19/2020 7:02 AM, John Dowling wrote:
Gerald,
I'm going to have to disagree with you there.
It's very easy to set up both an Amazon echo and google home.
There respected apps on both ios and android are very accessible.
May I ask, what smartphones were you referring to when you said
expensive and inaccessible.
Thanks,
John.

Once you replace negative thoughts with positive ones,  you'll
start having positive results. -Willie Nelson

On Oct 19, 2020, at 6:46 AM, Gerald Levy via groups.io
<bwaylimited@...> wrote:

?


The bottom line is that both the Amazon Echo and Google Home
smart speakers were never really designed with accessibility in
mind in the first place.  To set up a Google Home device, you
need an expensive smart phone, which, itself may not be all
that accessible.  The Amazon Echo can allegedly be set up by
computer, but I have not seen any rports from blind consumers
successfully
   setting it up this way without sighted help. Large tech
companies seem to be sliding backwards when it comes to
accessibility.  For instance, PayPal, which claims that they
are dedicated to making their web site accessible, no longer
offers telephone customer support for disabled customers who
encounter problems with the site. The blindness advocacy
organizations have been uncharacteristically quiet about this
issue. Despite the problems you have described, they have never
demonstrated any inclination to take legal action against these
companies to force them to make their products, apps and
customer support more accessible and blind-friendly.  Probably
because their wimpy lawyers are afraid to challenge big bad
Amazon and Google and the likes of Jeff Bezos and Eric Schmidt.
They are only interested in litigation if they see a big payday
for themselves.  For instace, years ago when the NFB
successfully sued Target to force them to make their web site
more accessible, they pocketed $250K in punitive damages, and
since then have not bothered to regularly inspect the Target
site to ensure that it remains accessible.  In factthe Target
site, at least from my perspective, has become progressively
less accessible since thesettlement.  So we blind consumers
really have nobody fighting on our behalf for better accessibility.

Gerald



On 10/19/2020 3:58 AM, Leedy Diane Bomar wrote:
I believe in inclusion. Amazon has improved significantly over
the last ten years in this area. We can now use their hardward
devices, including those with screens. But, they still have a
long way to go as far as their app and web site are concerned.

My issue is a mindset and culture concern. We are still
considered a "special" group. In other words, they still think
that a separate website is what we SHOULD prefer, though very
few use it. I believe that most of you would agree the using
the app and website should be designed correctly so that it is
equally accessible and usable for blind and sighted users.
Separation is never equal.

So, why is it that when one calls the departments that provide
customer service on using their hardware devices, which
include accessible features such as voice view, the reps are
not trained on those modes and want to send us to the
Accessibility Department? Tonight when trying to set up my new
Echo Show, the rep insisted that I could only use it by
visually reading the screen. She was adamant about this fact,
though I knew that wasn't the case. The standard help file
they send out has no reference to using the device
non-visually, not even a link! The Accessibility department is
a misnomer, in fact, a rep from that department referred to it
as "search and rescue" which may be a more apt title. They
certainly don't have the tools to allow them to use their apps
with voice on either iOS or Android! At best they can give
descriptions of products and put them in your cart, which is often
useful.
But, am I wrong in believing that the device reps should be
trained in using those devices by a blind person? Shouldn't
they even know that it is possible, and research how to set it up?

I had this issue with my first Kindle Fire, three years ago,
and raised quite a ruckus about it, and hoped it had been
resolved.
But, it obiously has not. Tonight, I spoke with a supervisor
who confirmed that the reps are not trained or even told that
a blind person can make the screen be accessible by voice output.

Am I the only one that is bothered by this attitude and its
results? Am I the only one who writes to the Accessibility
development team with complaints and suggestions. Several
years ago, I even wrote to Jeff Bezos, and was contacted by a
moron from their Executive team, who was supposedly in charge
of "accessibility". He said things like: "they were really
lucky to find me." "Why don't you just use the special access
site?" "I used to have a blind friend" and worst of all was
going to hire Freedom Scientific, who he had met at CSUN, to
come in and give JAWS training to a group of developers while
blindfolded! I asked him why they needed to be blindfolded,
instead of just turning off the screen, and his reply was "but
then, they could see the keyboard!" I pointed out that the
developers needed training on coding for accessibility.more
than learning JAWS, but he was a know-it-all. He refused to
attend consumer conventions, saying that he had no time for
that. I don't know if he is still there, but, he caused more
problems than fixing anything.

Anyway, I am sorry that this seems like a useless rant, but, I
would like input from others, of how to address this mindset
problem. Is it just me, and an unrealistic belief in full
inclusion, or, is it a problem for others?

Thanks,























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