Date   

Re: Apple vs Windows?

Andy
 

Could you send the tutorial to me as well?
wq6r@socal.rr.com

Andy

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@gmail.com>
To: <main@TechTalk.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 11:31 AM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?


If you want, I'll send you the tutorial as a part of an e-mail.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: goshawk on horseback
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 12:49 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

no, I haven't, and find them a complete pane, as I just can't figure out how
to find things easily in the flaming things.

Simon


----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@gmail.com>
To: <main@TechTalk.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 4:04 PM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?


Did you see my tutorial on ribbons? I can't say how you will find them if you haven't seen it and now do, but in the majority of cases, people have a lot of probems witgh ribbons because they haven't been properly taught them or havenn't seen good instructional material, if any. In essense, and it isn't quite this simple, but in essence, ribbons are like menus but differently organized.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: goshawk on horseback
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 9:45 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

would definitely agree about the time to figure out another OS.
I was recently looking to possibly get away from windows, as I am not happy
with the way it is going with all these ribbon menus and so on, so thought
about going the mac rout. only to find, that unlike windows, one can't even
do the basics with out knowing a good few 3 key plus combinations. so would
say that there is a lot more to have to spend time figuring out with the
mac, to do anything at all with it, where as windows is certainly a bit
easier from that point.

as for the mobile side of things, I use both iPhone and android, and would
say that once one is used to using a touch screen, that is a good half the
battle. over all, I probably prefer the iPhone, but do prefer the android as
a media device, as getting stuff on and off of it is a lot easier, as it can
be done with standard windows explorer, rather than the messing about with
iTunes, to get stuff on or off of the iPhone.

Simon


----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@gmail.com>
To: <main@TechTalk.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 3:12 PM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?


I'm not sure there is an answer. for the typical user, I doubt there is a meaningful advantage one way or the other. I won't use Apple computers because I know Windows and it isn't worth my time and effort learning another operating system when I am already very profficient in one.

there may be some specific uses that are better dealt with in apple computers and some in Windows but I don't think, as I said, that for the typical user, it matters.

Then there is the cost of Apple computers. You pay a lot more.

I won't comment on mobile devices. I haven't used smart mobile devices.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Dave
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 9:08 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

Hello,


For those who have both, or experience with both Systems, Which has the
better support when it comes to over all Accessibility?


Not trying to start World War 8, but I keep noticing lots of articles
and pod casts explaining Apple Accessibility features. this would cover
the Apple Mac, the I-Pad, and the I-Phone.


I don't own an Apple products, but am open to it. With what seems to be
an increase in articles, over the last year or two, it just had me
wondering how good are the Apple products?


I find all the Operating Systems to be lacking when it comes to
Accessibility. Seems like we move ahead one or two steps, then take a
step or two back.


I personally use Windows and Android. have yet to own anything Apple.


Grumpy Dave



























Re: Apple vs Windows?

Gene
 

If you want, I'll send you the tutorial as a part of an e-mail.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: goshawk on horseback
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 12:49 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

no, I haven't, and find them a complete pane, as I just can't figure out how
to find things easily in the flaming things.

Simon


----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@gmail.com>
To: <main@TechTalk.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 4:04 PM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?


Did you see my tutorial on ribbons? I can't say how you will find them if you haven't seen it and now do, but in the majority of cases, people have a lot of probems witgh ribbons because they haven't been properly taught them or havenn't seen good instructional material, if any. In essense, and it isn't quite this simple, but in essence, ribbons are like menus but differently organized.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: goshawk on horseback
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 9:45 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

would definitely agree about the time to figure out another OS.
I was recently looking to possibly get away from windows, as I am not happy
with the way it is going with all these ribbon menus and so on, so thought
about going the mac rout. only to find, that unlike windows, one can't even
do the basics with out knowing a good few 3 key plus combinations. so would
say that there is a lot more to have to spend time figuring out with the
mac, to do anything at all with it, where as windows is certainly a bit
easier from that point.

as for the mobile side of things, I use both iPhone and android, and would
say that once one is used to using a touch screen, that is a good half the
battle. over all, I probably prefer the iPhone, but do prefer the android as
a media device, as getting stuff on and off of it is a lot easier, as it can
be done with standard windows explorer, rather than the messing about with
iTunes, to get stuff on or off of the iPhone.

Simon


----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@gmail.com>
To: <main@TechTalk.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 3:12 PM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?


I'm not sure there is an answer. for the typical user, I doubt there is a meaningful advantage one way or the other. I won't use Apple computers because I know Windows and it isn't worth my time and effort learning another operating system when I am already very profficient in one.

there may be some specific uses that are better dealt with in apple computers and some in Windows but I don't think, as I said, that for the typical user, it matters.

Then there is the cost of Apple computers. You pay a lot more.

I won't comment on mobile devices. I haven't used smart mobile devices.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Dave
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 9:08 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

Hello,


For those who have both, or experience with both Systems, Which has the
better support when it comes to over all Accessibility?


Not trying to start World War 8, but I keep noticing lots of articles
and pod casts explaining Apple Accessibility features. this would cover
the Apple Mac, the I-Pad, and the I-Phone.


I don't own an Apple products, but am open to it. With what seems to be
an increase in articles, over the last year or two, it just had me
wondering how good are the Apple products?


I find all the Operating Systems to be lacking when it comes to
Accessibility. Seems like we move ahead one or two steps, then take a
step or two back.


I personally use Windows and Android. have yet to own anything Apple.


Grumpy Dave




















Re: Apple vs Windows?

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 01:13 PM, Ron Canazzi wrote:
I never said Mosen got me fired.
-
No, you didn't.  But I have no idea what you were trying to communicate then.  The implication that he was somehow involved is something that virtually any reader would take away from your comments.  Hence the reason I asked for clarification.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

If your joy is derived from what society thinks of you, you're always going to be disappointed.

        ~ Madonna


Re: Apple vs Windows?

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 01:52 PM, goshawk on horseback wrote:
I am finding them very different, and next to impossible to find the things I need/want to find on them. give me the standard easy to use menus any day.
-
The "standard, easy menus" are gone and are never coming back.  They also were standard, but not easy.  We all had to learn them when we first started to work with them, too.  I also, for the record, far preferred them, but that's entirely irrelevant because I, like you, have the tools at my disposal that have been provided.  I don't get to have my preference in a wide range of situations.  And with computers, you always have to learn to work with the predominant design idiom of the moment.  It doesn't matter one iota what your opinion about that predominant design idiom is.

The fact that you, or anyone, is saying well over a decade after the mass introduction of the ribbon interface that they don't know how to use it indicates an active resistance to doing same, for which there is no one to blame but the end user.  Here is Gene's tutorial, along with two I've written.  Like everything tech related, practice is what brings about eventual ease of use.


--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

If your joy is derived from what society thinks of you, you're always going to be disappointed.

        ~ Madonna


Re: Apple vs Windows?

goshawk on horseback
 


up until now, using win7, I haven't had any issues with them coming up, it is only now that one can't get win7 anymore, that it is starting to be a real headache.
I am finding them very different, and next to impossible to find the things I need/want to find on them. give me the standard easy to use menus any day.
 
Simon
 
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 4:19 PM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 10:45 AM, goshawk on horseback wrote:
I am not happy with the way it is going with all these ribbon menus
-
This will likely start a war, but, "it is going"?   Where have you been?

The ribbons interface started all the way back when Office 2007 was introduced and has been a part of Windows since Windows 7.  Microsoft is not "going" but went a very, very long time ago.

And whether you like the ribbon interface or not, Gene's assertion, " in essence, ribbons are like menus but differently organized," is spot on, and the organization is not all that different.  For those using keyboard shortcuts, the ones you've been using "since dirt" have remained unchanged.  Learning how to navigate the ribbon is just not difficult.   I see a lot more active resistance to learning how to do so that's a far greater impediment than the ribbons themselves ever have been.

If you're going to stay in the Windows ecosystem the choice is learning how to use the ribbon interface or flounder.  It's that simple.  And no one need flounder unless by choice.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

If your joy is derived from what society thinks of you, you're always going to be disappointed.

        ~ Madonna


Re: Apple vs Windows?

goshawk on horseback
 

no, I haven't, and find them a complete pane, as I just can't figure out how to find things easily in the flaming things.

Simon

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@gmail.com>
To: <main@TechTalk.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 4:04 PM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?


Did you see my tutorial on ribbons? I can't say how you will find them if you haven't seen it and now do, but in the majority of cases, people have a lot of probems witgh ribbons because they haven't been properly taught them or havenn't seen good instructional material, if any. In essense, and it isn't quite this simple, but in essence, ribbons are like menus but differently organized.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: goshawk on horseback
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 9:45 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

would definitely agree about the time to figure out another OS.
I was recently looking to possibly get away from windows, as I am not happy
with the way it is going with all these ribbon menus and so on, so thought
about going the mac rout. only to find, that unlike windows, one can't even
do the basics with out knowing a good few 3 key plus combinations. so would
say that there is a lot more to have to spend time figuring out with the
mac, to do anything at all with it, where as windows is certainly a bit
easier from that point.

as for the mobile side of things, I use both iPhone and android, and would
say that once one is used to using a touch screen, that is a good half the
battle. over all, I probably prefer the iPhone, but do prefer the android as
a media device, as getting stuff on and off of it is a lot easier, as it can
be done with standard windows explorer, rather than the messing about with
iTunes, to get stuff on or off of the iPhone.

Simon


----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@gmail.com>
To: <main@TechTalk.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 3:12 PM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?


I'm not sure there is an answer. for the typical user, I doubt there is a meaningful advantage one way or the other. I won't use Apple computers because I know Windows and it isn't worth my time and effort learning another operating system when I am already very profficient in one.

there may be some specific uses that are better dealt with in apple computers and some in Windows but I don't think, as I said, that for the typical user, it matters.

Then there is the cost of Apple computers. You pay a lot more.

I won't comment on mobile devices. I haven't used smart mobile devices.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Dave
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 9:08 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

Hello,


For those who have both, or experience with both Systems, Which has the
better support when it comes to over all Accessibility?


Not trying to start World War 8, but I keep noticing lots of articles
and pod casts explaining Apple Accessibility features. this would cover
the Apple Mac, the I-Pad, and the I-Phone.


I don't own an Apple products, but am open to it. With what seems to be
an increase in articles, over the last year or two, it just had me
wondering how good are the Apple products?


I find all the Operating Systems to be lacking when it comes to
Accessibility. Seems like we move ahead one or two steps, then take a
step or two back.


I personally use Windows and Android. have yet to own anything Apple.


Grumpy Dave



















Re: narrator and Paypal Language Issue

Sharon Hooley
 

problem with Be my Eyes was that it couldn't connect properly, so I thought I'd ask here.

Is it hard to communicate, even with hearing aids? Visit
www.CochlearAmericas.com

On Nov 18, 2020, at 6:20 PM, Michael Rodgerson <monex249@gmail.com> wrote:

Sharon, if you have the Be my eyes app, you can use that.





Re: Apple vs Windows?

Ron Canazzi
 

I never said Mosen got me fired.
I just think that it is quite naive to think that when  someone is employed by a company and that they say things that tend to minimize the usability or efficiency of what might fairly be called a competitor that to assume that he is and always will be or cannot in any way be affected by this scenario is short sighted.


On 11/19/2020 11:54 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 11:29 AM, Ron Canazzi wrote:
i used to be on the private beta team and when I got a bit too uppity and criticized JAWS for falling somewhat behind NVDA on a few specific issues, I was canned!
-
Serious question:  Fired at whose behest?

These sort of petty actions are, sadly, all too common.  But it's the person or persons responsible for taking them who deserve the blame.

I don't know Jonathan Mosen from Adam other than knowing his name and that he publishes lots of material related to accessibility.  But I have no reason to believe that he was responsible for what happened to you unless you're willing to state such directly.

Vindictiveness is common, as is the inability to take negative feedback that serves a valuable purpose.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

If your joy is derived from what society thinks of you, you're always going to be disappointed.

        ~ Madonna


-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Re: Apple vs Windows?

chris judge
 

He does not do the FS podcast any more. He hasn’t for a while now.

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gerald Levy via groups.io
Sent: November 19, 2020 1:06 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

 

 

My understanding is that Jonathan is an independent consultant these days who still does FSCasts for Freedom Scientific.  He is still very dedicated to his IPhone, because, as he has pointed out on the Blind Hearing Aid Users list, he uses it to connect to his hearing aids via bluetoot.

 

Gerald

 

 

On 11/19/2020 11:44 AM, chris judge wrote:

He works for an employment agency in New Zealand. I think it's called work bridge or something to that affect. He's the CEO.
 
-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: November 19, 2020 12:08 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?
 
I don't know who he works for now, if anyone.  He specifically addresses work he does for JAWS in his presentation.  he states that he used Apple a great deal for a few years but he is now moving or has moved back to Windows.
 
Jonathan Mosen may still do work for Freedom Scientific but it is probably on a freelance basis.  My opinion is that he keeps a strong separation between his personal writing and appraisals and his work for whomever he works for.  And this presentation doesn't advocate using JAWS.
 
Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Ron Canazzi
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 9:57 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?
 
Hi Gene,
 
With all due respect to Jonathan Mosen, doesn't he now work for one of the big guns: JAWS or some other Windows-based company? I am using both Windows and Apple products. I find browsing the web with the iPhone just about as easy as with Windows.  This is despite the extra relatively new (for me that is) mastery of the touch gestures necessary to use an iPhone.  I would love to try a Mack desktop system, but at this time, the big issue with Apple desktops is the price. I can get a decent Windows machine for under 500 dollars US while a decent mid priced Apple desktop costs beginning around 1000 dollars US.
 
 
On 11/19/2020 10:23 AM, Gene wrote:
Here is a long essay about why Jonathan Mosen, after using both 
Windows and Mac computers extensively, has gone to just Windows.
https://mosen.org/saying-goodbye-to-the-mac/
As you will see, he discusses certain specific uses that may not bee 
of concern to many users.  But he does address this or that use that 
would be of interest to a large number.  I haven't read the whole 
essay but he does specifically say that working with PDF documents is 
easier in Windows and web browsing is easier.
 
I'm not making any generalizations.  I am saying that if you do well 
with whatever you use and it meets your needs well, why go through the 
trouble of learning a new operating system unless you just want to.
 
Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 9:12 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?
 
I'm not sure there is an answer.  for the typical user, I doubt there 
is a meaningful advantage one way or the other.  I won't use Apple 
computers because I know Windows and it isn't worth my time and effort 
learning another operating system when I am already very profficient in one.
 
there may be some specific uses that are better dealt with in apple 
computers and some in Windows but I don't think, as I said, that for 
the typical user, it matters.
 
Then there is the cost of  Apple computers.  You pay a lot more.
 
I won't comment on mobile devices.  I haven't used smart mobile devices.
 
Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Dave
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 9:08 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?
 
Hello,
 
 
For those who have both, or experience with both Systems, Which has 
the better support when it comes to over all Accessibility?
 
 
Not trying to start World War 8, but I keep noticing lots of articles 
and pod casts explaining Apple Accessibility features. this would 
cover the Apple Mac, the I-Pad, and the I-Phone.
 
 
I don't own an Apple products, but am open to it.  With what seems to 
be an increase in articles, over the last year or two, it just had me 
wondering how good are the Apple products?
 
 
I find all the Operating Systems to be lacking when it comes to 
Accessibility.  Seems like we move ahead one or two steps, then take a 
step or two back.
 
 
I personally use Windows and Android.  have yet to own anything Apple.
 
 
Grumpy Dave
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


Re: Apple vs Windows?

Gerald Levy
 


My understanding is that Jonathan is an independent consultant these days who still does FSCasts for Freedom Scientific.  He is still very dedicated to his IPhone, because, as he has pointed out on the Blind Hearing Aid Users list, he uses it to connect to his hearing aids via bluetoot.


Gerald



On 11/19/2020 11:44 AM, chris judge wrote:
He works for an employment agency in New Zealand. I think it's called work bridge or something to that affect. He's the CEO.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: November 19, 2020 12:08 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

I don't know who he works for now, if anyone.  He specifically addresses work he does for JAWS in his presentation.  he states that he used Apple a great deal for a few years but he is now moving or has moved back to Windows.

Jonathan Mosen may still do work for Freedom Scientific but it is probably on a freelance basis.  My opinion is that he keeps a strong separation between his personal writing and appraisals and his work for whomever he works for.  And this presentation doesn't advocate using JAWS.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Ron Canazzi
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 9:57 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

Hi Gene,

With all due respect to Jonathan Mosen, doesn't he now work for one of the big guns: JAWS or some other Windows-based company? I am using both Windows and Apple products. I find browsing the web with the iPhone just about as easy as with Windows.  This is despite the extra relatively new (for me that is) mastery of the touch gestures necessary to use an iPhone.  I would love to try a Mack desktop system, but at this time, the big issue with Apple desktops is the price. I can get a decent Windows machine for under 500 dollars US while a decent mid priced Apple desktop costs beginning around 1000 dollars US.


On 11/19/2020 10:23 AM, Gene wrote:
Here is a long essay about why Jonathan Mosen, after using both 
Windows and Mac computers extensively, has gone to just Windows.
https://mosen.org/saying-goodbye-to-the-mac/
As you will see, he discusses certain specific uses that may not bee 
of concern to many users.  But he does address this or that use that 
would be of interest to a large number.  I haven't read the whole 
essay but he does specifically say that working with PDF documents is 
easier in Windows and web browsing is easier.

I'm not making any generalizations.  I am saying that if you do well 
with whatever you use and it meets your needs well, why go through the 
trouble of learning a new operating system unless you just want to.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 9:12 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

I'm not sure there is an answer.  for the typical user, I doubt there 
is a meaningful advantage one way or the other.  I won't use Apple 
computers because I know Windows and it isn't worth my time and effort 
learning another operating system when I am already very profficient in one.

there may be some specific uses that are better dealt with in apple 
computers and some in Windows but I don't think, as I said, that for 
the typical user, it matters.

Then there is the cost of  Apple computers.  You pay a lot more.

I won't comment on mobile devices.  I haven't used smart mobile devices.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Dave
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 9:08 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

Hello,


For those who have both, or experience with both Systems, Which has 
the better support when it comes to over all Accessibility?


Not trying to start World War 8, but I keep noticing lots of articles 
and pod casts explaining Apple Accessibility features. this would 
cover the Apple Mac, the I-Pad, and the I-Phone.


I don't own an Apple products, but am open to it.  With what seems to 
be an increase in articles, over the last year or two, it just had me 
wondering how good are the Apple products?


I find all the Operating Systems to be lacking when it comes to 
Accessibility.  Seems like we move ahead one or two steps, then take a 
step or two back.


I personally use Windows and Android.  have yet to own anything Apple.


Grumpy Dave












--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

















Re: nls player reset

Steven Johnson <saxmonger@...>
 

Hi Joe. I believe that there are 2 different resets that you can do, a
profile reset and a hardware reset. The profile reset removes all of your
bookmarks, and you do it by holding down the speed up, tone up and volume up
buttons simultaneously and powering the unit on while holding them. I
believe that you do a hardware reset by holding down on the power button for
10 or more seconds until the player beeps.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Joe
Giovanelli
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 8:24 AM
To: techtalk@groups.io
Subject: [TechTalk] nls player reset

Good morning,

The subject says it. Is there a way to reset the NLS player?

Thank you for your thoughts.

Joe Giovanelli, W2PVY


Re: Apple vs Windows?

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 11:29 AM, Ron Canazzi wrote:
i used to be on the private beta team and when I got a bit too uppity and criticized JAWS for falling somewhat behind NVDA on a few specific issues, I was canned!
-
Serious question:  Fired at whose behest?

These sort of petty actions are, sadly, all too common.  But it's the person or persons responsible for taking them who deserve the blame.

I don't know Jonathan Mosen from Adam other than knowing his name and that he publishes lots of material related to accessibility.  But I have no reason to believe that he was responsible for what happened to you unless you're willing to state such directly.

Vindictiveness is common, as is the inability to take negative feedback that serves a valuable purpose.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

If your joy is derived from what society thinks of you, you're always going to be disappointed.

        ~ Madonna


Re: Apple vs Windows?

Gene
 

I said I hadn't read all of the essay. I didn't read a good deal of it because I'm not interested in the details of the topic. But I just looked and there are comments afterwards. If you think Jonathan Mohsen is letting his association with what was Freedom Scientific when he wrote this article influence his view, you may be satisfied that the comments balance the situation. I haven't read them to any extent but they are present. The reader will have to decide both if Jonathan Mohsen is unduly influenced and if the comments address that problem, if it exists in the first place.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 10:39 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

It isn't naive. Jonathan Mosen hasn't been employed by the owners of JAWS
for years. He may still do work for them on a freelance basis, I don't
know. I would suggest that you listen to some of the presentation before
you make assumptions and call me naive.

Jonathan Mosen clearly addresses his work for what was then Freedom
Scientific and you will not see it influence his evaluation.

Jonathan Mosen has built up a reputation for reliability and integrity for
decades. Indeed, he makes statements favoring people using screen-readers
that meet their needs. he does not make any sort of case for a general
recommendation for JAWS.

I don't know who ran the beta list. I don't know if you can assume anything
based on that and how the company handles someone in the position of
Jonathan Mosen. As I said, making assumptions without listening to part of
the presentation and basing your skepticism on what happened to you working
with one aspect of the company is not a valid way to form conclusions about
the reliability of this essay.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Ron Canazzi
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 10:29 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

Hi Gene,

Well that is quite frankly naive. i used to be on the private beta team
and when I got a bit too uppity and criticized JAWS for falling somewhat
behind NVDA on a few specific issues, I was canned!


On 11/19/2020 11:08 AM, Gene wrote:
I don't know who he works for now, if anyone. He specifically addresses work he does for JAWS in his presentation. he states that he used Apple a great deal for a few years but he is now moving or has moved back to Windows.

Jonathan Mosen may still do work for Freedom Scientific but it is probably on a freelance basis. My opinion is that he keeps a strong separation between his personal writing and appraisals and his work for whomever he works for. And this presentation doesn't advocate using JAWS.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Ron Canazzi
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 9:57 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

Hi Gene,

With all due respect to Jonathan Mosen, doesn't he now work for one of
the big guns: JAWS or some other Windows-based company? I am using both
Windows and Apple products. I find browsing the web with the iPhone just
about as easy as with Windows. This is despite the extra relatively new
(for me that is) mastery of the touch gestures necessary to use an
iPhone. I would love to try a Mack desktop system, but at this time,
the big issue with Apple desktops is the price. I can get a decent
Windows machine for under 500 dollars US while a decent mid priced Apple
desktop costs beginning around 1000 dollars US.


On 11/19/2020 10:23 AM, Gene wrote:
Here is a long essay about why Jonathan Mosen, after using both Windows and Mac computers extensively, has gone to just Windows.
https://mosen.org/saying-goodbye-to-the-mac/
As you will see, he discusses certain specific uses that may not bee of concern to many users. But he does address this or that use that would be of interest to a large number. I haven't read the whole essay but he does specifically say that working with PDF documents is easier in Windows and web browsing is easier.

I'm not making any generalizations. I am saying that if you do well with whatever you use and it meets your needs well, why go through the trouble of learning a new operating system unless you just want to.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 9:12 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

I'm not sure there is an answer. for the typical user, I doubt there is a
meaningful advantage one way or the other. I won't use Apple computers
because I know Windows and it isn't worth my time and effort learning
another operating system when I am already very profficient in one.

there may be some specific uses that are better dealt with in apple
computers and some in Windows but I don't think, as I said, that for the
typical user, it matters.

Then there is the cost of Apple computers. You pay a lot more.

I won't comment on mobile devices. I haven't used smart mobile devices.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Dave
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 9:08 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

Hello,


For those who have both, or experience with both Systems, Which has the
better support when it comes to over all Accessibility?


Not trying to start World War 8, but I keep noticing lots of articles
and pod casts explaining Apple Accessibility features. this would cover
the Apple Mac, the I-Pad, and the I-Phone.


I don't own an Apple products, but am open to it. With what seems to be
an increase in articles, over the last year or two, it just had me
wondering how good are the Apple products?


I find all the Operating Systems to be lacking when it comes to
Accessibility. Seems like we move ahead one or two steps, then take a
step or two back.


I personally use Windows and Android. have yet to own anything Apple.


Grumpy Dave











--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Re: Apple vs Windows?

chris judge
 

He works for an employment agency in New Zealand. I think it's called work bridge or something to that affect. He's the CEO.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: November 19, 2020 12:08 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

I don't know who he works for now, if anyone. He specifically addresses work he does for JAWS in his presentation. he states that he used Apple a great deal for a few years but he is now moving or has moved back to Windows.

Jonathan Mosen may still do work for Freedom Scientific but it is probably on a freelance basis. My opinion is that he keeps a strong separation between his personal writing and appraisals and his work for whomever he works for. And this presentation doesn't advocate using JAWS.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Ron Canazzi
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 9:57 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

Hi Gene,

With all due respect to Jonathan Mosen, doesn't he now work for one of the big guns: JAWS or some other Windows-based company? I am using both Windows and Apple products. I find browsing the web with the iPhone just about as easy as with Windows. This is despite the extra relatively new (for me that is) mastery of the touch gestures necessary to use an iPhone. I would love to try a Mack desktop system, but at this time, the big issue with Apple desktops is the price. I can get a decent Windows machine for under 500 dollars US while a decent mid priced Apple desktop costs beginning around 1000 dollars US.


On 11/19/2020 10:23 AM, Gene wrote:
Here is a long essay about why Jonathan Mosen, after using both
Windows and Mac computers extensively, has gone to just Windows.
https://mosen.org/saying-goodbye-to-the-mac/
As you will see, he discusses certain specific uses that may not bee
of concern to many users. But he does address this or that use that
would be of interest to a large number. I haven't read the whole
essay but he does specifically say that working with PDF documents is
easier in Windows and web browsing is easier.

I'm not making any generalizations. I am saying that if you do well
with whatever you use and it meets your needs well, why go through the
trouble of learning a new operating system unless you just want to.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 9:12 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

I'm not sure there is an answer. for the typical user, I doubt there
is a meaningful advantage one way or the other. I won't use Apple
computers because I know Windows and it isn't worth my time and effort
learning another operating system when I am already very profficient in one.

there may be some specific uses that are better dealt with in apple
computers and some in Windows but I don't think, as I said, that for
the typical user, it matters.

Then there is the cost of Apple computers. You pay a lot more.

I won't comment on mobile devices. I haven't used smart mobile devices.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Dave
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 9:08 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

Hello,


For those who have both, or experience with both Systems, Which has
the better support when it comes to over all Accessibility?


Not trying to start World War 8, but I keep noticing lots of articles
and pod casts explaining Apple Accessibility features. this would
cover the Apple Mac, the I-Pad, and the I-Phone.


I don't own an Apple products, but am open to it. With what seems to
be an increase in articles, over the last year or two, it just had me
wondering how good are the Apple products?


I find all the Operating Systems to be lacking when it comes to
Accessibility. Seems like we move ahead one or two steps, then take a
step or two back.


I personally use Windows and Android. have yet to own anything Apple.


Grumpy Dave











--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Re: Apple vs Windows?

Gene
 

It isn't naive. Jonathan Mosen hasn't been employed by the owners of JAWS for years. He may still do work for them on a freelance basis, I don't know. I would suggest that you listen to some of the presentation before you make assumptions and call me naive.

Jonathan Mosen clearly addresses his work for what was then Freedom Scientific and you will not see it influence his evaluation.

Jonathan Mosen has built up a reputation for reliability and integrity for decades. Indeed, he makes statements favoring people using screen-readers that meet their needs. he does not make any sort of case for a general recommendation for JAWS.

I don't know who ran the beta list. I don't know if you can assume anything based on that and how the company handles someone in the position of Jonathan Mosen. As I said, making assumptions without listening to part of the presentation and basing your skepticism on what happened to you working with one aspect of the company is not a valid way to form conclusions about the reliability of this essay.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Ron Canazzi
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 10:29 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

Hi Gene,

Well that is quite frankly naive. i used to be on the private beta team
and when I got a bit too uppity and criticized JAWS for falling somewhat
behind NVDA on a few specific issues, I was canned!


On 11/19/2020 11:08 AM, Gene wrote:
I don't know who he works for now, if anyone. He specifically addresses work he does for JAWS in his presentation. he states that he used Apple a great deal for a few years but he is now moving or has moved back to Windows.

Jonathan Mosen may still do work for Freedom Scientific but it is probably on a freelance basis. My opinion is that he keeps a strong separation between his personal writing and appraisals and his work for whomever he works for. And this presentation doesn't advocate using JAWS.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Ron Canazzi
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 9:57 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

Hi Gene,

With all due respect to Jonathan Mosen, doesn't he now work for one of
the big guns: JAWS or some other Windows-based company? I am using both
Windows and Apple products. I find browsing the web with the iPhone just
about as easy as with Windows. This is despite the extra relatively new
(for me that is) mastery of the touch gestures necessary to use an
iPhone. I would love to try a Mack desktop system, but at this time,
the big issue with Apple desktops is the price. I can get a decent
Windows machine for under 500 dollars US while a decent mid priced Apple
desktop costs beginning around 1000 dollars US.


On 11/19/2020 10:23 AM, Gene wrote:
Here is a long essay about why Jonathan Mosen, after using both Windows and Mac computers extensively, has gone to just Windows.
https://mosen.org/saying-goodbye-to-the-mac/
As you will see, he discusses certain specific uses that may not bee of concern to many users. But he does address this or that use that would be of interest to a large number. I haven't read the whole essay but he does specifically say that working with PDF documents is easier in Windows and web browsing is easier.

I'm not making any generalizations. I am saying that if you do well with whatever you use and it meets your needs well, why go through the trouble of learning a new operating system unless you just want to.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 9:12 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

I'm not sure there is an answer. for the typical user, I doubt there is a
meaningful advantage one way or the other. I won't use Apple computers
because I know Windows and it isn't worth my time and effort learning
another operating system when I am already very profficient in one.

there may be some specific uses that are better dealt with in apple
computers and some in Windows but I don't think, as I said, that for the
typical user, it matters.

Then there is the cost of Apple computers. You pay a lot more.

I won't comment on mobile devices. I haven't used smart mobile devices.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Dave
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 9:08 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

Hello,


For those who have both, or experience with both Systems, Which has the
better support when it comes to over all Accessibility?


Not trying to start World War 8, but I keep noticing lots of articles
and pod casts explaining Apple Accessibility features. this would cover
the Apple Mac, the I-Pad, and the I-Phone.


I don't own an Apple products, but am open to it. With what seems to be
an increase in articles, over the last year or two, it just had me
wondering how good are the Apple products?


I find all the Operating Systems to be lacking when it comes to
Accessibility. Seems like we move ahead one or two steps, then take a
step or two back.


I personally use Windows and Android. have yet to own anything Apple.


Grumpy Dave











--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Re: Apple vs Windows?

chris judge
 

I have used both. On the IOS side I love it. I've been using the iPhone since 2009 and love it. Regarding the mac, I have never been able to get my head around voice over. I find it unintuitive. It could just be that I've been using windows and jaws for so long. I have mac book here and keep meaning to bust it out and give it another shot, but I haven't as of yet.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: November 19, 2020 11:24 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

Here is a long essay about why Jonathan Mosen, after using both Windows and Mac computers extensively, has gone to just Windows.
https://mosen.org/saying-goodbye-to-the-mac/
As you will see, he discusses certain specific uses that may not bee of concern to many users. But he does address this or that use that would be of interest to a large number. I haven't read the whole essay but he does specifically say that working with PDF documents is easier in Windows and web browsing is easier.

I'm not making any generalizations. I am saying that if you do well with whatever you use and it meets your needs well, why go through the trouble of learning a new operating system unless you just want to.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 9:12 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

I'm not sure there is an answer. for the typical user, I doubt there is a meaningful advantage one way or the other. I won't use Apple computers because I know Windows and it isn't worth my time and effort learning another operating system when I am already very profficient in one.

there may be some specific uses that are better dealt with in apple computers and some in Windows but I don't think, as I said, that for the typical user, it matters.

Then there is the cost of Apple computers. You pay a lot more.

I won't comment on mobile devices. I haven't used smart mobile devices.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Dave
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 9:08 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

Hello,


For those who have both, or experience with both Systems, Which has the better support when it comes to over all Accessibility?


Not trying to start World War 8, but I keep noticing lots of articles and pod casts explaining Apple Accessibility features. this would cover the Apple Mac, the I-Pad, and the I-Phone.


I don't own an Apple products, but am open to it. With what seems to be an increase in articles, over the last year or two, it just had me wondering how good are the Apple products?


I find all the Operating Systems to be lacking when it comes to Accessibility. Seems like we move ahead one or two steps, then take a step or two back.


I personally use Windows and Android. have yet to own anything Apple.


Grumpy Dave


Re: Apple vs Windows?

Ron Canazzi
 

Hi Gene,

Well that is quite frankly naive.  i used to be on the private beta team and when I got a bit too uppity and criticized JAWS for falling somewhat behind NVDA on a few specific issues, I was canned!

On 11/19/2020 11:08 AM, Gene wrote:
I don't know who he works for now, if anyone.  He specifically addresses work he does for JAWS in his presentation.  he states that he used Apple a great deal for a few years but he is now moving or has moved back to Windows.

Jonathan Mosen may still do work for Freedom Scientific but it is probably on a freelance basis.  My opinion is that he keeps a strong separation between his personal writing and appraisals and his work for whomever he works for.  And this presentation doesn't advocate using JAWS.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Ron Canazzi
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 9:57 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

Hi Gene,

With all due respect to Jonathan Mosen, doesn't he now work for one of
the big guns: JAWS or some other Windows-based company? I am using both
Windows and Apple products. I find browsing the web with the iPhone just
about as easy as with Windows.  This is despite the extra relatively new
(for me that is) mastery of the touch gestures necessary to use an
iPhone.  I would love to try a Mack desktop system, but at this time,
the big issue with Apple desktops is the price. I can get a decent
Windows machine for under 500 dollars US while a decent mid priced Apple
desktop costs beginning around 1000 dollars US.


On 11/19/2020 10:23 AM, Gene wrote:
Here is a long essay about why Jonathan Mosen, after using both Windows and Mac computers extensively, has gone to just Windows.
https://mosen.org/saying-goodbye-to-the-mac/
As you will see, he discusses certain specific uses that may not bee of concern to many users.  But he does address this or that use that would be of interest to a large number.  I haven't read the whole essay but he does specifically say that working with PDF documents is easier in Windows and web browsing is easier.

I'm not making any generalizations.  I am saying that if you do well with whatever you use and it meets your needs well, why go through the trouble of learning a new operating system unless you just want to.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 9:12 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

I'm not sure there is an answer.  for the typical user, I doubt there is a
meaningful advantage one way or the other.  I won't use Apple computers
because I know Windows and it isn't worth my time and effort learning
another operating system when I am already very profficient in one.

there may be some specific uses that are better dealt with in apple
computers and some in Windows but I don't think, as I said, that for the
typical user, it matters.

Then there is the cost of  Apple computers.  You pay a lot more.

I won't comment on mobile devices.  I haven't used smart mobile devices.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Dave
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 9:08 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

Hello,


For those who have both, or experience with both Systems, Which has the
better support when it comes to over all Accessibility?


Not trying to start World War 8, but I keep noticing lots of articles
and pod casts explaining Apple Accessibility features. this would cover
the Apple Mac, the I-Pad, and the I-Phone.


I don't own an Apple products, but am open to it.  With what seems to be
an increase in articles, over the last year or two, it just had me
wondering how good are the Apple products?


I find all the Operating Systems to be lacking when it comes to
Accessibility.  Seems like we move ahead one or two steps, then take a
step or two back.


I personally use Windows and Android.  have yet to own anything Apple.


Grumpy Dave











--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


nls player reset

Joe Giovanelli
 

Good morning,

The subject says it. Is there a way to reset the NLS player?

Thank you for your thoughts.

Joe Giovanelli, W2PVY


Re: Apple vs Windows?

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 10:45 AM, goshawk on horseback wrote:
I am not happy with the way it is going with all these ribbon menus
-
This will likely start a war, but, "it is going"?   Where have you been?

The ribbons interface started all the way back when Office 2007 was introduced and has been a part of Windows since Windows 7.  Microsoft is not "going" but went a very, very long time ago.

And whether you like the ribbon interface or not, Gene's assertion, " in essence, ribbons are like menus but differently organized," is spot on, and the organization is not all that different.  For those using keyboard shortcuts, the ones you've been using "since dirt" have remained unchanged.  Learning how to navigate the ribbon is just not difficult.   I see a lot more active resistance to learning how to do so that's a far greater impediment than the ribbons themselves ever have been.

If you're going to stay in the Windows ecosystem the choice is learning how to use the ribbon interface or flounder.  It's that simple.  And no one need flounder unless by choice.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

If your joy is derived from what society thinks of you, you're always going to be disappointed.

        ~ Madonna


Re: Apple vs Windows?

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 10:52 AM, Gene wrote:
With Apple, you get what you get.
-
Yup.  Apple exercises an iron fist in controlling its ecosystem while Microsoft has had a "come one, come all!!" attitude toward third party developers for as long as I've been in the business.

My line about Apple is that you must become one with the borg when you go Apple.  They know what's best for you and you'll get what they deign to give you.  That's why I parted ways with them decades ago.  I want a lot more control over my computing environment than I could ever get with Apple products.

Others, will, of course, feel differently.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

If your joy is derived from what society thinks of you, you're always going to be disappointed.

        ~ Madonna

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