On 11/21/20, Steve Matzura <number6@noisynotes.com> wrote:

1. How do I click anything once I've found the POWER button on the
sign-in screen? There's no screenreader alive that will give me access
to that, or I haven't figured out how to get that access. Tabbing to the
Restart button, then holding down the SHIFT key while pressing ENTER
doesn't do it.


2. Once the computer restarts, there's no speech. So what key(s) do I
press to get into Troubleshooting, then Advanced? That was in my first
posted question.


3. In the solution using BCDEDIT, I've also seen one that uses {default}
instead of {bootmgr}. Which one is correct, and do I need the braces?


4. I can't use MSCONFIG because it tosses me into a UAC screen from
which I cannot escape other than by answering no.



On 11/21/2020 6:53 PM, Blaster wrote:

Steve, Here's a few more ways to enter safe mode that you may want to
try:

https://pureinfotech.com/safe-mode-windows-10/

HTH,
Blaster

On 11/21/2020 6:53 PM, Blaster wrote:

Steve, Here's a few more ways to enter safe mode that you may want to try:

https://pureinfotech.com/safe-mode-windows-10/

HTH,
Blaster

On 22/11/2020 6:43 am, enes sarıbaş wrote:

Gene,

While ribbons are more accessible than people give them credit for, there is absolutely no doubt that menu bars were vastly superior in terms of accessibility. Ribbons seemed to be designed with the mouse in mind.

On 11/19/2020 12:49 PM, goshawk on horseback wrote:

no, I haven't, and find them a complete pane, as I just can't figure out how to find things easily in the flaming things.

Simon


----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@gmail.com>
To: <main@TechTalk.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 4:04 PM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

Did you see my tutorial on ribbons?  I can't say how you will find them if you haven't seen it and now do, but in the majority of cases, people have a lot of probems witgh ribbons because they haven't been properly taught them or havenn't seen good instructional material, if any.  In essense, and it isn't quite this simple, but in essence, ribbons are like menus but differently organized.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: goshawk on horseback
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 9:45 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

would definitely agree about the time to figure out another OS.
I was recently looking to possibly get away from windows, as I am not happy
with the way it is going with all these ribbon menus and so on, so thought
about going the mac rout. only to find, that unlike windows, one can't even
do the basics with out knowing a good few 3 key plus combinations. so would
say that there is a lot more to have to spend time figuring out with the
mac, to do anything at all with it, where as windows is certainly a bit
easier from that point.

as for the mobile side of things, I use both iPhone and android, and would
say that once one is used to using a touch screen, that is a good half the
battle. over all, I probably prefer the iPhone, but do prefer the android as
a media device, as getting stuff on and off of it is a lot easier, as it can
be done with standard windows explorer, rather than the messing about with
iTunes, to get stuff on or off of the iPhone.

Simon


----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@gmail.com>
To: <main@TechTalk.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 3:12 PM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

I'm not sure there is an answer.  for the typical user, I doubt there is a meaningful advantage one way or the other.  I won't use Apple computers because I know Windows and it isn't worth my time and effort learning another operating system when I am already very profficient in one.

there may be some specific uses that are better dealt with in apple computers and some in Windows but I don't think, as I said, that for the typical user, it matters.

Then there is the cost of  Apple computers.  You pay a lot more.

I won't comment on mobile devices.  I haven't used smart mobile devices.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Dave
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 9:08 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

Hello,


For those who have both, or experience with both Systems, Which has the
better support when it comes to over all Accessibility?


Not trying to start World War 8, but I keep noticing lots of articles
and pod casts explaining Apple Accessibility features. this would cover
the Apple Mac, the I-Pad, and the I-Phone.


I don't own an Apple products, but am open to it.  With what seems to be
an increase in articles, over the last year or two, it just had me
wondering how good are the Apple products?


I find all the Operating Systems to be lacking when it comes to
Accessibility.  Seems like we move ahead one or two steps, then take a
step or two back.


I personally use Windows and Android.  have yet to own anything Apple.


Grumpy Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2020 5:47 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

This is exactly what I mean Gene. I should not have to memorize dozens
of sequences to use an interface. That detracts significantly from
usability.

On 11/21/2020 5:34 PM, Gene wrote:

Useability isn't a problem if you know how to use ribbons efficiently. it may be slightly less convenient because command sequences, it appears to me, I haven't really comprehensively compared, seem to often be one or two carachters longer in ribbons. For example, to execute a command, or open a dialog, you might execute a command such as h I m or h o I m. Those are just examples, they don't necessarily reflect actual commands.

The real problem is that a lot of people evidently don't know about groupings who know ribbons rreasonably well, that is my impression, and that there are often a lot more items in a ribbon, which makes remembering carachter sequences more important for commonly used commands. A third problem may be that I don't know how many people know how to use split buttons in ribbons, thus making certain buttons appear to do little or almost nothing when, in reality, they may offer many choices and/or commands.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2020 4:59 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

Gene,

This is why there are two concepts, accessibility and usability.
Making something accessible doesn't necesarily mean it is usable. For
example, if it takes 20 keystrokes to achieve an action as opposed to
two, that is technically accessible, but not very usable. Also, didn't
know about groupings. That is a good thing to know.

On 11/21/2020 4:56 PM, Gene wrote:

That is factually incorrect. it isn't a matter of opinion. Accessibility doesn't mean convenient. It means that things can be reached from the keyboard, that they speak, and can be activated from the keyboard.

And as far as reaching things from the keyboard conveniently in ribbons is concerned, in my tutorial, I said that people who intend to use a certain ribbon command often remember the keyboard sequence, just as they do in menus. And if you know the commands control right arrow and control left arrow to move by grouping, you can often get to what you want if you don't know where it is with reasonable efficiency.

If, for example, I am looking for reply to all in the ribbon version of Windows live mail, if I move by grouping, I can use control right arrow to move until I get to the respond grouping. That is logically where reply commands would be. I then tab to reply to all if that is what I want. If I stop when I get to the grouping, I will probably be on reply.

A lot of ribbons have far more items in them than a single menu. Moving by groupings significantly helps with that problem because you don't have to tab or shift tab by every item in the menu. You move through groupings until you get to the one that logically would be expected to have whatever command or adjustment you are looking for.

If you want to say that menus are more convenient, that's a matter I won't argue, it’s a personal preference and I don't have much opinion. But when it comes to accessibility, ribbons are accessible.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2020 4:43 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

Gene,

While ribbons are more accessible than people give them credit for,
there is absolutely no doubt that menu bars were vastly superior in
terms of accessibility. Ribbons seemed to be designed with the mouse in
mind.

On 11/19/2020 12:49 PM, goshawk on horseback wrote:

no, I haven't, and find them a complete pane, as I just can't figure out how to find things easily in the flaming things.

Simon


----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@gmail.com>
To: <main@TechTalk.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 4:04 PM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

Did you see my tutorial on ribbons? I can't say how you will find them if you haven't seen it and now do, but in the majority of cases, people have a lot of probems witgh ribbons because they haven't been properly taught them or havenn't seen good instructional material, if any. In essense, and it isn't quite this simple, but in essence, ribbons are like menus but differently organized.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: goshawk on horseback
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 9:45 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

would definitely agree about the time to figure out another OS.
I was recently looking to possibly get away from windows, as I am not happy
with the way it is going with all these ribbon menus and so on, so thought
about going the mac rout. only to find, that unlike windows, one can't even
do the basics with out knowing a good few 3 key plus combinations. so would
say that there is a lot more to have to spend time figuring out with the
mac, to do anything at all with it, where as windows is certainly a bit
easier from that point.

as for the mobile side of things, I use both iPhone and android, and would
say that once one is used to using a touch screen, that is a good half the
battle. over all, I probably prefer the iPhone, but do prefer the android as
a media device, as getting stuff on and off of it is a lot easier, as it can
be done with standard windows explorer, rather than the messing about with
iTunes, to get stuff on or off of the iPhone.

Simon


----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@gmail.com>
To: <main@TechTalk.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 3:12 PM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

I'm not sure there is an answer. for the typical user, I doubt there is a meaningful advantage one way or the other. I won't use Apple computers because I know Windows and it isn't worth my time and effort learning another operating system when I am already very profficient in one.

there may be some specific uses that are better dealt with in apple computers and some in Windows but I don't think, as I said, that for the typical user, it matters.

Then there is the cost of Apple computers. You pay a lot more.

I won't comment on mobile devices. I haven't used smart mobile devices.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Dave
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 9:08 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

Hello,


For those who have both, or experience with both Systems, Which has the
better support when it comes to over all Accessibility?


Not trying to start World War 8, but I keep noticing lots of articles
and pod casts explaining Apple Accessibility features. this would cover
the Apple Mac, the I-Pad, and the I-Phone.


I don't own an Apple products, but am open to it. With what seems to be
an increase in articles, over the last year or two, it just had me
wondering how good are the Apple products?


I find all the Operating Systems to be lacking when it comes to
Accessibility. Seems like we move ahead one or two steps, then take a
step or two back.


I personally use Windows and Android. have yet to own anything Apple.


Grumpy Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: Monte Single
Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2020 5:41 PM
To: techtalk@groups.io
Subject: [TechTalk] SPLIT BUTTONS



Hi List,

New Subject.

Sometimes, the simplest things confuse me.



How do I activate, work with, a split button in a ribbon



Thanks,



Monte

On 11/21/2020 5:34 PM, Gene wrote:

Useability isn't a problem if you know how to use ribbons efficiently.  it may be slightly less convenient because command sequences, it appears to me, I haven't really comprehensively compared, seem to often be one or two carachters longer in ribbons.  For example, to execute a command, or open a dialog, you might execute a command such as h I m or h o I m.  Those are just examples, they don't necessarily reflect actual commands.

The real problem is that a lot of people evidently don't know about groupings who know ribbons rreasonably well, that is my impression, and that there are often a lot more items in a ribbon, which makes remembering carachter sequences more important for commonly used commands.  A third problem may be that I don't know how many people know how to use split buttons in ribbons, thus making certain buttons appear to do little or almost nothing when, in reality, they may offer many choices and/or commands.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2020 4:59 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

Gene,

This is why  there  are two concepts, accessibility and usability.
Making something accessible doesn't necesarily mean it is usable. For
example, if it takes 20 keystrokes to achieve an action as opposed to
two, that is technically accessible, but not very usable. Also, didn't
know about groupings. That is a good thing to know.

On 11/21/2020 4:56 PM, Gene wrote:

That is factually incorrect.  it isn't a matter of opinion.  Accessibility doesn't mean convenient.  It means that things can be reached from the keyboard, that they speak, and can be activated from the keyboard.

And as far as reaching things from the keyboard conveniently in ribbons is concerned, in my tutorial, I said that people who intend to use a certain ribbon command often remember the keyboard sequence, just as they do in menus.  And if you know the commands control right arrow and control left arrow to move by grouping, you can often get to what you want if you don't know where it is with reasonable efficiency.

If, for example, I am looking for reply to all in the ribbon version of Windows live mail, if I move by grouping, I can use control right arrow to move until I get to the respond grouping. That is logically where reply commands would be.  I then tab to reply to all if that is what I want.  If I stop when I get to the grouping, I will probably be on reply.

A lot of ribbons have far more items in them than a single menu. Moving by groupings significantly helps with that problem because you don't have to tab or shift tab by every item in the menu.  You move through groupings until you get to the one that logically would be expected to have whatever command or adjustment you are looking for.

If you want to say that menus are more convenient, that's a matter I won't argue, it’s a personal preference and I don't have much opinion.  But when it comes to accessibility, ribbons are accessible.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2020 4:43 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

Gene,

While ribbons are more accessible than people give them credit for,
there is absolutely no doubt that menu bars were vastly superior in
terms of accessibility. Ribbons seemed to be designed with the mouse in
mind.

On 11/19/2020 12:49 PM, goshawk on horseback wrote:

no, I haven't, and find them a complete pane, as I just can't figure out how to find things easily in the flaming things.

Simon


----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@gmail.com>
To: <main@TechTalk.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 4:04 PM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

Did you see my tutorial on ribbons?  I can't say how you will find them if you haven't seen it and now do, but in the majority of cases, people have a lot of probems witgh ribbons because they haven't been properly taught them or havenn't seen good instructional material, if any.  In essense, and it isn't quite this simple, but in essence, ribbons are like menus but differently organized.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: goshawk on horseback
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 9:45 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

would definitely agree about the time to figure out another OS.
I was recently looking to possibly get away from windows, as I am not happy
with the way it is going with all these ribbon menus and so on, so thought
about going the mac rout. only to find, that unlike windows, one can't even
do the basics with out knowing a good few 3 key plus combinations. so would
say that there is a lot more to have to spend time figuring out with the
mac, to do anything at all with it, where as windows is certainly a bit
easier from that point.

as for the mobile side of things, I use both iPhone and android, and would
say that once one is used to using a touch screen, that is a good half the
battle. over all, I probably prefer the iPhone, but do prefer the android as
a media device, as getting stuff on and off of it is a lot easier, as it can
be done with standard windows explorer, rather than the messing about with
iTunes, to get stuff on or off of the iPhone.

Simon


----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@gmail.com>
To: <main@TechTalk.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 3:12 PM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

I'm not sure there is an answer. for the typical user, I doubt there is a meaningful advantage one way or the other.  I won't use Apple computers because I know Windows and it isn't worth my time and effort learning another operating system when I am already very profficient in one.

there may be some specific uses that are better dealt with in apple computers and some in Windows but I don't think, as I said, that for the typical user, it matters.

Then there is the cost of  Apple computers.  You pay a lot more.

I won't comment on mobile devices.  I haven't used smart mobile devices.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Dave
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 9:08 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

Hello,


For those who have both, or experience with both Systems, Which has the
better support when it comes to over all Accessibility?


Not trying to start World War 8, but I keep noticing lots of articles
and pod casts explaining Apple Accessibility features. this would cover
the Apple Mac, the I-Pad, and the I-Phone.


I don't own an Apple products, but am open to it.  With what seems to be
an increase in articles, over the last year or two, it just had me
wondering how good are the Apple products?


I find all the Operating Systems to be lacking when it comes to
Accessibility.  Seems like we move ahead one or two steps, then take a
step or two back.


I personally use Windows and Android.  have yet to own anything Apple.


Grumpy Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: Kimsan via groups.io
Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2020 5:13 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] accessing an element on a website problem



Using Genes suggestion by loading another version of jaws and yours switching schemes, after trying multiple ones, its not reading the clickables using chrome.

I’m stumped.





Kimsan Song

kimsansong@icloud.com

If you are into HipHop or R&B, I invite you to subscribe to my youtube artist channel at

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFzrNcgBfHguK-LnnJMMylA

Also, you may follow me on twitter:

https://twitter.com/kims4ns0ng







From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mike B
Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2020 2:46 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] accessing an element on a website problem







Try changing schemes while in Chrome to see if anything changes.




Take care and stay safe. Mike. Sent from my iBarstool. Go Rams!
Main's Law: For every action there is an equal and opposite government program.



----- Original Message -----



From: Kimsan via groups.io



To: main@TechTalk.groups.io



Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2020 2:23 PM



Subject: Re: [TechTalk] accessing an element on a website problem







Lately, no.

On another list, yes I spoke of schemes but nothing was modified.





Kimsan Song

kimsansong@icloud.com

If you are into HipHop or R&B, I invite you to subscribe to my youtube artist channel at

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFzrNcgBfHguK-LnnJMMylA

Also, you may follow me on twitter:

https://twitter.com/kims4ns0ng







From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mike B
Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2020 2:17 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] accessing an element on a website problem







Okay, did you modify a scheme somewhere along the line so Jaws won't report clickable?




Take care and stay safe. Mike. Sent from my iBarstool. Go Rams!
Main's Law: For every action there is an equal and opposite government program.



----- Original Message -----



From: Kimsan via groups.io



To: main@TechTalk.groups.io



Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2020 1:58 PM



Subject: Re: [TechTalk] accessing an element on a website problem







I actually found this tip on a google search from 2016 from a jaws list but in short that box was already checked.





Kimsan Song

kimsansong@icloud.com

If you are into HipHop or R&B, I invite you to subscribe to my youtube artist channel at

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFzrNcgBfHguK-LnnJMMylA

Also, you may follow me on twitter:

https://twitter.com/kims4ns0ng







From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mike B
Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2020 11:54 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] accessing an element on a website problem







Yo Dog,







Check this setting from the steps below:



From: Carlos via BlindTech
In
"Settings Center"
under the
"Web / HTML / PDFs"
category, there is a subcategory labeled
"Miscellaneous"
Under
"Miscellaneous"
there is a setting labeled
"Indicate Element Attribute"
Unchecking this setting will stop Jaws from saying
"Clickable"
Although I would not recommend this since there are times when you will miss
out on elements of webpages that may be useful and are clickable.
Carlos



If that setting is unchecked, check it, to get clickable back.




Take care and stay safe. Mike. Sent from my iBarstool. Go Rams!
Main's Law: For every action there is an equal and opposite government program.



----- Original Message -----



From: Kimsan via groups.io



To: main@TechTalk.groups.io



Sent: Friday, November 20, 2020 10:43 PM



Subject: Re: [TechTalk] accessing an element on a website problem







Thanks Ron,

I cannot seem to hear the announcement of clickable though, and I’m trying to figure out how to turn it back on as I must’ve turned it off lol.





Kimsan Song

kimsansong@icloud.com

If you are into HipHop or R&B, I invite you to subscribe to my youtube artist channel at

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFzrNcgBfHguK-LnnJMMylA

Also, you may follow me on twitter:

https://twitter.com/kims4ns0ng







From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ron Canazzi
Sent: Friday, November 20, 2020 9:55 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] accessing an element on a website problem





Hi Kinsam,

Navigate to the line of text that reads as follows:
This pack includes royalty free Melody loops, MIDI, and stems for every melody.

On the line just below this text is a group of items labeled clickable. There is no text associated with these 'clickable' items. Press enter on these items and the samples will play.

Repeat the process for each group of clickable items below and other samples will play.



On 11/20/2020 8:47 PM, Kimsan via groups.io wrote:



Hi,

I’m using jaws 2020 and latest chrome.

If anyone has time, can someone navigate to this website and help me find the play button?

This site has soundpacks which are a collection of melodies etc. I’m trying to listen to some of the contents in one of the packs.

I cannot seem to locate the play button though.

So, if anyone would like to look and try, after going to the site, search for night, and night fall should pop up.

I would push enter, left mouse click, but cannot seem to play anything.

https://cymatics.fm/collections/store/products/gems-vol-10-rnb-melodies-collection#MainContent



Kimsan Song

kimsansong@icloud.com

If you are into HipHop or R&B, I invite you to subscribe to my youtube artist channel at

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFzrNcgBfHguK-LnnJMMylA

Also, you may follow me on twitter:

https://twitter.com/kims4ns0ng







-- They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.They ask: "How Happy are You?"I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

-----Original Message-----
From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2020 4:59 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

Gene,

This is why there are two concepts, accessibility and usability.
Making something accessible doesn't necesarily mean it is usable. For
example, if it takes 20 keystrokes to achieve an action as opposed to
two, that is technically accessible, but not very usable. Also, didn't
know about groupings. That is a good thing to know.

On 11/21/2020 4:56 PM, Gene wrote:

That is factually incorrect. it isn't a matter of opinion. Accessibility doesn't mean convenient. It means that things can be reached from the keyboard, that they speak, and can be activated from the keyboard.

And as far as reaching things from the keyboard conveniently in ribbons is concerned, in my tutorial, I said that people who intend to use a certain ribbon command often remember the keyboard sequence, just as they do in menus. And if you know the commands control right arrow and control left arrow to move by grouping, you can often get to what you want if you don't know where it is with reasonable efficiency.

If, for example, I am looking for reply to all in the ribbon version of Windows live mail, if I move by grouping, I can use control right arrow to move until I get to the respond grouping. That is logically where reply commands would be. I then tab to reply to all if that is what I want. If I stop when I get to the grouping, I will probably be on reply.

A lot of ribbons have far more items in them than a single menu. Moving by groupings significantly helps with that problem because you don't have to tab or shift tab by every item in the menu. You move through groupings until you get to the one that logically would be expected to have whatever command or adjustment you are looking for.

If you want to say that menus are more convenient, that's a matter I won't argue, it’s a personal preference and I don't have much opinion. But when it comes to accessibility, ribbons are accessible.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2020 4:43 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

Gene,

While ribbons are more accessible than people give them credit for,
there is absolutely no doubt that menu bars were vastly superior in
terms of accessibility. Ribbons seemed to be designed with the mouse in
mind.

On 11/19/2020 12:49 PM, goshawk on horseback wrote:

no, I haven't, and find them a complete pane, as I just can't figure out how to find things easily in the flaming things.

Simon


----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@gmail.com>
To: <main@TechTalk.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 4:04 PM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

Did you see my tutorial on ribbons? I can't say how you will find them if you haven't seen it and now do, but in the majority of cases, people have a lot of probems witgh ribbons because they haven't been properly taught them or havenn't seen good instructional material, if any. In essense, and it isn't quite this simple, but in essence, ribbons are like menus but differently organized.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: goshawk on horseback
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 9:45 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

would definitely agree about the time to figure out another OS.
I was recently looking to possibly get away from windows, as I am not happy
with the way it is going with all these ribbon menus and so on, so thought
about going the mac rout. only to find, that unlike windows, one can't even
do the basics with out knowing a good few 3 key plus combinations. so would
say that there is a lot more to have to spend time figuring out with the
mac, to do anything at all with it, where as windows is certainly a bit
easier from that point.

as for the mobile side of things, I use both iPhone and android, and would
say that once one is used to using a touch screen, that is a good half the
battle. over all, I probably prefer the iPhone, but do prefer the android as
a media device, as getting stuff on and off of it is a lot easier, as it can
be done with standard windows explorer, rather than the messing about with
iTunes, to get stuff on or off of the iPhone.

Simon


----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@gmail.com>
To: <main@TechTalk.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 3:12 PM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

I'm not sure there is an answer. for the typical user, I doubt there is a meaningful advantage one way or the other. I won't use Apple computers because I know Windows and it isn't worth my time and effort learning another operating system when I am already very profficient in one.

there may be some specific uses that are better dealt with in apple computers and some in Windows but I don't think, as I said, that for the typical user, it matters.

Then there is the cost of Apple computers. You pay a lot more.

I won't comment on mobile devices. I haven't used smart mobile devices.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Dave
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 9:08 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

Hello,


For those who have both, or experience with both Systems, Which has the
better support when it comes to over all Accessibility?


Not trying to start World War 8, but I keep noticing lots of articles
and pod casts explaining Apple Accessibility features. this would cover
the Apple Mac, the I-Pad, and the I-Phone.


I don't own an Apple products, but am open to it. With what seems to be
an increase in articles, over the last year or two, it just had me
wondering how good are the Apple products?


I find all the Operating Systems to be lacking when it comes to
Accessibility. Seems like we move ahead one or two steps, then take a
step or two back.


I personally use Windows and Android. have yet to own anything Apple.


Grumpy Dave

On Sat, 21 Nov 2020 17:15:53 -0600 "Gene" <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:

Is there any way to run JAWS with factory defaults? There is in NVDA. You don't lose your settings but you can trouble shoot in that way.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Mike B
Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2020 4:45 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] accessing an element on a website problem


Try changing schemes while in Chrome to see if anything changes.

Take care and stay safe. Mike. Sent from my iBarstool. Go Rams!
Main's Law: For every action there is an equal and opposite government program.
----- Original Message ----- From: Kimsan via groups.io
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2020 2:23 PM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] accessing an element on a website problem


Lately, no.

On another list, yes I spoke of schemes but nothing was modified.





Kimsan Song

kimsansong@icloud.com

If you are into HipHop or R&B, I invite you to subscribe to my youtube artist channel at

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFzrNcgBfHguK-LnnJMMylA

Also, you may follow me on twitter:

https://twitter.com/kims4ns0ng







From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mike B
Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2020 2:17 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] accessing an element on a website problem







Okay, did you modify a scheme somewhere along the line so Jaws won't report clickable?




Take care and stay safe. Mike. Sent from my iBarstool. Go Rams!
Main's Law: For every action there is an equal and opposite government program.



----- Original Message -----


From: Kimsan via groups.io



To: main@TechTalk.groups.io



Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2020 1:58 PM



Subject: Re: [TechTalk] accessing an element on a website problem







I actually found this tip on a google search from 2016 from a jaws list but in short that box was already checked.





Kimsan Song

kimsansong@icloud.com

If you are into HipHop or R&B, I invite you to subscribe to my youtube artist channel at

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFzrNcgBfHguK-LnnJMMylA

Also, you may follow me on twitter:

https://twitter.com/kims4ns0ng







From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mike B
Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2020 11:54 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] accessing an element on a website problem







Yo Dog,







Check this setting from the steps below:



From: Carlos via BlindTech
In
"Settings Center"
under the
"Web / HTML / PDFs"
category, there is a subcategory labeled
"Miscellaneous"
Under
"Miscellaneous"
there is a setting labeled
"Indicate Element Attribute"
Unchecking this setting will stop Jaws from saying
"Clickable"
Although I would not recommend this since there are times when you will miss
out on elements of webpages that may be useful and are clickable.
Carlos



If that setting is unchecked, check it, to get clickable back.




Take care and stay safe. Mike. Sent from my iBarstool. Go Rams!
Main's Law: For every action there is an equal and opposite government program.



----- Original Message -----


From: Kimsan via groups.io



To: main@TechTalk.groups.io



Sent: Friday, November 20, 2020 10:43 PM



Subject: Re: [TechTalk] accessing an element on a website problem







Thanks Ron,

I cannot seem to hear the announcement of clickable though, and I’m trying to figure out how to turn it back on as I must’ve turned it off lol.





Kimsan Song

kimsansong@icloud.com

If you are into HipHop or R&B, I invite you to subscribe to my youtube artist channel at

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFzrNcgBfHguK-LnnJMMylA

Also, you may follow me on twitter:

https://twitter.com/kims4ns0ng







From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ron Canazzi
Sent: Friday, November 20, 2020 9:55 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] accessing an element on a website problem





Hi Kinsam,

Navigate to the line of text that reads as follows:
This pack includes royalty free Melody loops, MIDI, and stems for every melody.

On the line just below this text is a group of items labeled clickable. There is no text associated with these 'clickable' items. Press enter on these items and the samples will play.

Repeat the process for each group of clickable items below and other samples will play.



On 11/20/2020 8:47 PM, Kimsan via groups.io wrote:



Hi,

I’m using jaws 2020 and latest chrome.

If anyone has time, can someone navigate to this website and help me find the play button?

This site has soundpacks which are a collection of melodies etc. I’m trying to listen to some of the contents in one of the packs.

I cannot seem to locate the play button though.

So, if anyone would like to look and try, after going to the site, search for night, and night fall should pop up.

I would push enter, left mouse click, but cannot seem to play anything.

https://cymatics.fm/collections/store/products/gems-vol-10-rnb-melodies-collection#MainContent



Kimsan Song

kimsansong@icloud.com

If you are into HipHop or R&B, I invite you to subscribe to my youtube artist channel at

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFzrNcgBfHguK-LnnJMMylA

Also, you may follow me on twitter:

https://twitter.com/kims4ns0ng







-- They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.They ask: "How Happy are You?"I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike B
Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2020 4:45 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] accessing an element on a website problem


Try changing schemes while in Chrome to see if anything changes.

Take care and stay safe. Mike. Sent from my iBarstool. Go Rams!
Main's Law: For every action there is an equal and opposite government program.
----- Original Message -----
From: Kimsan via groups.io
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2020 2:23 PM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] accessing an element on a website problem


Lately, no.

On another list, yes I spoke of schemes but nothing was modified.





Kimsan Song

kimsansong@icloud.com

If you are into HipHop or R&B, I invite you to subscribe to my youtube artist channel at

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFzrNcgBfHguK-LnnJMMylA

Also, you may follow me on twitter:

https://twitter.com/kims4ns0ng







From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mike B
Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2020 2:17 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] accessing an element on a website problem







Okay, did you modify a scheme somewhere along the line so Jaws won't report clickable?




Take care and stay safe. Mike. Sent from my iBarstool. Go Rams!
Main's Law: For every action there is an equal and opposite government program.



----- Original Message -----



From: Kimsan via groups.io



To: main@TechTalk.groups.io



Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2020 1:58 PM



Subject: Re: [TechTalk] accessing an element on a website problem







I actually found this tip on a google search from 2016 from a jaws list but in short that box was already checked.





Kimsan Song

kimsansong@icloud.com

If you are into HipHop or R&B, I invite you to subscribe to my youtube artist channel at

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFzrNcgBfHguK-LnnJMMylA

Also, you may follow me on twitter:

https://twitter.com/kims4ns0ng







From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mike B
Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2020 11:54 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] accessing an element on a website problem







Yo Dog,







Check this setting from the steps below:



From: Carlos via BlindTech
In
"Settings Center"
under the
"Web / HTML / PDFs"
category, there is a subcategory labeled
"Miscellaneous"
Under
"Miscellaneous"
there is a setting labeled
"Indicate Element Attribute"
Unchecking this setting will stop Jaws from saying
"Clickable"
Although I would not recommend this since there are times when you will miss
out on elements of webpages that may be useful and are clickable.
Carlos



If that setting is unchecked, check it, to get clickable back.




Take care and stay safe. Mike. Sent from my iBarstool. Go Rams!
Main's Law: For every action there is an equal and opposite government program.



----- Original Message -----



From: Kimsan via groups.io



To: main@TechTalk.groups.io



Sent: Friday, November 20, 2020 10:43 PM



Subject: Re: [TechTalk] accessing an element on a website problem







Thanks Ron,

I cannot seem to hear the announcement of clickable though, and I’m trying to figure out how to turn it back on as I must’ve turned it off lol.





Kimsan Song

kimsansong@icloud.com

If you are into HipHop or R&B, I invite you to subscribe to my youtube artist channel at

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFzrNcgBfHguK-LnnJMMylA

Also, you may follow me on twitter:

https://twitter.com/kims4ns0ng







From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ron Canazzi
Sent: Friday, November 20, 2020 9:55 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] accessing an element on a website problem





Hi Kinsam,

Navigate to the line of text that reads as follows:
This pack includes royalty free Melody loops, MIDI, and stems for every melody.

On the line just below this text is a group of items labeled clickable. There is no text associated with these 'clickable' items. Press enter on these items and the samples will play.

Repeat the process for each group of clickable items below and other samples will play.



On 11/20/2020 8:47 PM, Kimsan via groups.io wrote:



Hi,

I’m using jaws 2020 and latest chrome.

If anyone has time, can someone navigate to this website and help me find the play button?

This site has soundpacks which are a collection of melodies etc. I’m trying to listen to some of the contents in one of the packs.

I cannot seem to locate the play button though.

So, if anyone would like to look and try, after going to the site, search for night, and night fall should pop up.

I would push enter, left mouse click, but cannot seem to play anything.

https://cymatics.fm/collections/store/products/gems-vol-10-rnb-melodies-collection#MainContent



Kimsan Song

kimsansong@icloud.com

If you are into HipHop or R&B, I invite you to subscribe to my youtube artist channel at

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFzrNcgBfHguK-LnnJMMylA

Also, you may follow me on twitter:

https://twitter.com/kims4ns0ng







-- They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.They ask: "How Happy are You?"I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mike B
Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2020 2:46 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] accessing an element on a website problem

 

Lately, no.

On another list, yes I spoke of schemes but nothing was modified.

 

 

 

I actually found this tip on a google search from 2016 from a jaws list but in short that box was already checked.

 

 

 

Thanks Ron,

I cannot seem to hear the announcement of clickable though, and I’m trying to figure out how to turn it back on as I must’ve turned it off lol.

 

 

 

Hi Kinsam,

Navigate to the line of text that reads as follows:
This pack includes royalty free Melody loops, MIDI, and stems for every melody.

On the line just below this text is a group of items labeled clickable.  There is no text associated with these 'clickable' items.  Press enter on these items and the samples will play.

Repeat the process for each group of clickable items below and other samples will play.

Hi,

I’m using jaws 2020 and latest chrome.

If anyone has time, can someone navigate to this website and help me find the play button?

This site has soundpacks which are a collection of melodies etc. I’m trying to listen to some of the contents in one of the packs.

I cannot seem to locate the play button though.

So, if anyone would like to look and try, after going to the site, search for night, and night fall should pop up.

I would push enter, left mouse click, but cannot seem to play anything.

https://cymatics.fm/collections/store/products/gems-vol-10-rnb-melodies-collection#MainContent

 

Kimsan Song

kimsansong@...

If you are into HipHop or R&B, I invite you to subscribe to my youtube artist channel at

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFzrNcgBfHguK-LnnJMMylA

Also, you may follow me on twitter:

https://twitter.com/kims4ns0ng

 

 

-- 

They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.

They ask: "How Happy are You?"

I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

On 11/21/2020 4:56 PM, Gene wrote:

That is factually incorrect.  it isn't a matter of opinion.  Accessibility doesn't mean convenient.  It means that things can be reached from the keyboard, that they speak, and can be activated from the keyboard.

And as far as reaching things from the keyboard conveniently in ribbons is concerned, in my tutorial, I said that people who intend to use a certain ribbon command often remember the keyboard sequence, just as they do in menus.  And if you know the commands control right arrow and control left arrow to move by grouping, you can often get to what you want if you don't know where it is with reasonable efficiency.

If, for example, I am looking for reply to all in the ribbon version of Windows live mail, if I move by grouping, I can use control right arrow to move until I get to the respond grouping. That is logically where reply commands would be.  I then tab to reply to all if that is what I want.  If I stop when I get to the grouping, I will probably be on reply.

A lot of ribbons have far more items in them than a single menu. Moving by groupings significantly helps with that problem because you don't have to tab or shift tab by every item in the menu.  You move through groupings until you get to the one that logically would be expected to have whatever command or adjustment you are looking for.

If you want to say that menus are more convenient, that's a matter I won't argue, it’s a personal preference and I don't have much opinion.  But when it comes to accessibility, ribbons are accessible.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2020 4:43 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

Gene,

While ribbons are more accessible than people give them credit for,
there is absolutely no doubt that menu bars were vastly superior in
terms of accessibility. Ribbons seemed to be designed with the mouse in
mind.

On 11/19/2020 12:49 PM, goshawk on horseback wrote:

no, I haven't, and find them a complete pane, as I just can't figure out how to find things easily in the flaming things.

Simon


----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@gmail.com>
To: <main@TechTalk.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 4:04 PM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

Did you see my tutorial on ribbons?  I can't say how you will find them if you haven't seen it and now do, but in the majority of cases, people have a lot of probems witgh ribbons because they haven't been properly taught them or havenn't seen good instructional material, if any.  In essense, and it isn't quite this simple, but in essence, ribbons are like menus but differently organized.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: goshawk on horseback
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 9:45 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

would definitely agree about the time to figure out another OS.
I was recently looking to possibly get away from windows, as I am not happy
with the way it is going with all these ribbon menus and so on, so thought
about going the mac rout. only to find, that unlike windows, one can't even
do the basics with out knowing a good few 3 key plus combinations. so would
say that there is a lot more to have to spend time figuring out with the
mac, to do anything at all with it, where as windows is certainly a bit
easier from that point.

as for the mobile side of things, I use both iPhone and android, and would
say that once one is used to using a touch screen, that is a good half the
battle. over all, I probably prefer the iPhone, but do prefer the android as
a media device, as getting stuff on and off of it is a lot easier, as it can
be done with standard windows explorer, rather than the messing about with
iTunes, to get stuff on or off of the iPhone.

Simon


----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@gmail.com>
To: <main@TechTalk.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 3:12 PM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

I'm not sure there is an answer.  for the typical user, I doubt there is a meaningful advantage one way or the other.  I won't use Apple computers because I know Windows and it isn't worth my time and effort learning another operating system when I am already very profficient in one.

there may be some specific uses that are better dealt with in apple computers and some in Windows but I don't think, as I said, that for the typical user, it matters.

Then there is the cost of  Apple computers.  You pay a lot more.

I won't comment on mobile devices.  I haven't used smart mobile devices.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Dave
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 9:08 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

Hello,


For those who have both, or experience with both Systems, Which has the
better support when it comes to over all Accessibility?


Not trying to start World War 8, but I keep noticing lots of articles
and pod casts explaining Apple Accessibility features. this would cover
the Apple Mac, the I-Pad, and the I-Phone.


I don't own an Apple products, but am open to it.  With what seems to be
an increase in articles, over the last year or two, it just had me
wondering how good are the Apple products?


I find all the Operating Systems to be lacking when it comes to
Accessibility.  Seems like we move ahead one or two steps, then take a
step or two back.


I personally use Windows and Android.  have yet to own anything Apple.


Grumpy Dave

On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 10:08 AM, Dave wrote:

I find all the Operating Systems to be lacking when it comes to Accessibility.  Seems like we move ahead one or two steps, then take a step or two back.

-
Then you will find Apple, iOS, and OSX no different.

Accessibility, as a whole, is a workaround.  It is the substitution of one sensory modality for material designed for another, and that substitution will never be "perfect" or even close to it.  All sorts of compromises have to be decided upon when trying to make something intended for one sensory modality accessible in another.

And while I'm entirely in agreement with the "one or two steps forward, then a seeming step or two back" feeling, it's not the truth in actuality.  It's been a steady march in one direction, forward.  But the problem is that technology, and particularly that related to the web and web coding, continues to move at an insanely rapid pace, so those in the business of providing accessibility are always in the position of playing catch-up.  Even if accessibility is "as close to perfect" as it can get today, a couple of small changes breaks that near perfection, creating stumbling blocks.  But that's not the same as true reversion - a true couple of steps back.  It's that the pace of what's new that has to be caught-up to, and how quickly (or not) that can be achieved ebbs and flows.

The arc of accessibility is, and has been, going in only one direction for decades now - forward.  That there have been some pretty darned frustrating bumps in that road, and that those will continue to occur at times, is undeniable.  That doesn't mean, in any true sense, that accessibility is getting worse.  The pursuit of accessibility will always include an element of break-fix, particularly with the introduction of truly novel constructs.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

If your joy is derived from what society thinks of you, you're always going to be disappointed.

        ~ Madonna

-----Original Message-----
From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2020 4:43 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

Gene,

While ribbons are more accessible than people give them credit for,
there is absolutely no doubt that menu bars were vastly superior in
terms of accessibility. Ribbons seemed to be designed with the mouse in
mind.

On 11/19/2020 12:49 PM, goshawk on horseback wrote:

no, I haven't, and find them a complete pane, as I just can't figure out how to find things easily in the flaming things.

Simon


----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@gmail.com>
To: <main@TechTalk.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 4:04 PM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

Did you see my tutorial on ribbons? I can't say how you will find them if you haven't seen it and now do, but in the majority of cases, people have a lot of probems witgh ribbons because they haven't been properly taught them or havenn't seen good instructional material, if any. In essense, and it isn't quite this simple, but in essence, ribbons are like menus but differently organized.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: goshawk on horseback
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 9:45 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

would definitely agree about the time to figure out another OS.
I was recently looking to possibly get away from windows, as I am not happy
with the way it is going with all these ribbon menus and so on, so thought
about going the mac rout. only to find, that unlike windows, one can't even
do the basics with out knowing a good few 3 key plus combinations. so would
say that there is a lot more to have to spend time figuring out with the
mac, to do anything at all with it, where as windows is certainly a bit
easier from that point.

as for the mobile side of things, I use both iPhone and android, and would
say that once one is used to using a touch screen, that is a good half the
battle. over all, I probably prefer the iPhone, but do prefer the android as
a media device, as getting stuff on and off of it is a lot easier, as it can
be done with standard windows explorer, rather than the messing about with
iTunes, to get stuff on or off of the iPhone.

Simon


----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@gmail.com>
To: <main@TechTalk.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 3:12 PM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

I'm not sure there is an answer. for the typical user, I doubt there is a meaningful advantage one way or the other. I won't use Apple computers because I know Windows and it isn't worth my time and effort learning another operating system when I am already very profficient in one.

there may be some specific uses that are better dealt with in apple computers and some in Windows but I don't think, as I said, that for the typical user, it matters.

Then there is the cost of Apple computers. You pay a lot more.

I won't comment on mobile devices. I haven't used smart mobile devices.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Dave
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 9:08 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

Hello,


For those who have both, or experience with both Systems, Which has the
better support when it comes to over all Accessibility?


Not trying to start World War 8, but I keep noticing lots of articles
and pod casts explaining Apple Accessibility features. this would cover
the Apple Mac, the I-Pad, and the I-Phone.


I don't own an Apple products, but am open to it. With what seems to be
an increase in articles, over the last year or two, it just had me
wondering how good are the Apple products?


I find all the Operating Systems to be lacking when it comes to
Accessibility. Seems like we move ahead one or two steps, then take a
step or two back.


I personally use Windows and Android. have yet to own anything Apple.


Grumpy Dave

On 11/20/2020 3:13 PM, Gene wrote:

I know you didn't like them but I didn't know what you thought now.

I don't mind someone making a strong case or having a strong opinion, if they don't resort to personal attacks.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Ron Canazzi
Sent: Friday, November 20, 2020 2:45 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

Hi Gene,

I totally agree and BTW, I HATE! ribbons.  I learn to use them and hold
my nose and my stomach and get by.


On 11/20/2020 11:53 AM, Gene wrote:

Why are you always threatening to leave? Accusing someone of whining like a three year old is a violation of the lists rule against abusive messages and all other such lists I've been a member of have such rules as well.

You don't motivate people  to learn or to want to listen to what you are saying by insulting them.  Encouraging people to learn is one thing. Discussing the importance  or the benefits of learning ribbons is one thing. Saying that if you learn ribbons may help you have more confidence when learning something else that may appear difficult at first, is fine. Saying someone is whining like a three year old is not.

Blind people come from all sorts of backgrounds.  Some have good training, some don't.  Some have more aptitude for learning computer-related concepts, and some people find learning computer-related things more difficult.

Some people come from backgrounds where family and friends have taught them not to have confidence.  Others come from backgrounds where they have been taught to have confidence.

If this were a rehabilitation facility, putting pressure on blind people to learn certain skills would be necessary.  Some people would lack the confidence to learn without being put under some pressure to achieve so they see that they can.  But this and other such lists aren't rehabilitation institutions. They are lists for learning and help.  Lists where blind people from all sorts of backgrounds, at all sorts of levels of knowledge gather to give and get help.  Encouragement is fine, not insults.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Friday, November 20, 2020 10:20 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 11:10 AM, Gene wrote:
Your post is verging on personally abusive and such posts will not be allowed if continued in any regular or recurring pattern.-
Gene, then I'll be happy to leave.  There seems to be this notion that all assistance has to "be nice."  Well, it doesn't, and very often, it shouldn't be.  We're dealing with adults here, and elsewhere, and I expect that adults know that effort will be necessary to learn any thing, and also know and accept the following:

It is impossible to help individuals who will not listen to advice unless they like that advice. Being a good assistant is not about making the person assisted "feel good," but about both asking the right (and sometimes hard) questions as well as giving the information necessary to achieve the desired result. Getting help is a two-way street, and those asking for help have work they must do, too, when asked. They also need to be ready to let go of what they'd like to do, and instead do what's called for.

It is not possible to help those who don't want to "do what's called for." And, for the record, I'm not trying to "encourage people" in every instance, or even many instances.  I'm trying to get them to actually do something they should have already been doing, and supplying the exact information they need to do it, which I did here.

Giving a well deserved wake-up call is not abusive, it's necessary in many cases.  This is one of them.

On 11/19/2020 12:49 PM, goshawk on horseback wrote:

no, I haven't, and find them a complete pane, as I just can't figure out how to find things easily in the flaming things.

Simon


----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@gmail.com>
To: <main@TechTalk.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 4:04 PM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

Did you see my tutorial on ribbons?  I can't say how you will find them if you haven't seen it and now do, but in the majority of cases, people have a lot of probems witgh ribbons because they haven't been properly taught them or havenn't seen good instructional material, if any.  In essense, and it isn't quite this simple, but in essence, ribbons are like menus but differently organized.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: goshawk on horseback
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 9:45 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

would definitely agree about the time to figure out another OS.
I was recently looking to possibly get away from windows, as I am not happy
with the way it is going with all these ribbon menus and so on, so thought
about going the mac rout. only to find, that unlike windows, one can't even
do the basics with out knowing a good few 3 key plus combinations. so would
say that there is a lot more to have to spend time figuring out with the
mac, to do anything at all with it, where as windows is certainly a bit
easier from that point.

as for the mobile side of things, I use both iPhone and android, and would
say that once one is used to using a touch screen, that is a good half the
battle. over all, I probably prefer the iPhone, but do prefer the android as
a media device, as getting stuff on and off of it is a lot easier, as it can
be done with standard windows explorer, rather than the messing about with
iTunes, to get stuff on or off of the iPhone.

Simon


----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@gmail.com>
To: <main@TechTalk.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 3:12 PM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

I'm not sure there is an answer.  for the typical user, I doubt there is a meaningful advantage one way or the other.  I won't use Apple computers because I know Windows and it isn't worth my time and effort learning another operating system when I am already very profficient in one.

there may be some specific uses that are better dealt with in apple computers and some in Windows but I don't think, as I said, that for the typical user, it matters.

Then there is the cost of  Apple computers.  You pay a lot more.

I won't comment on mobile devices.  I haven't used smart mobile devices.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Dave
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 9:08 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

Hello,


For those who have both, or experience with both Systems, Which has the
better support when it comes to over all Accessibility?


Not trying to start World War 8, but I keep noticing lots of articles
and pod casts explaining Apple Accessibility features. this would cover
the Apple Mac, the I-Pad, and the I-Phone.


I don't own an Apple products, but am open to it.  With what seems to be
an increase in articles, over the last year or two, it just had me
wondering how good are the Apple products?


I find all the Operating Systems to be lacking when it comes to
Accessibility.  Seems like we move ahead one or two steps, then take a
step or two back.


I personally use Windows and Android.  have yet to own anything Apple.


Grumpy Dave