Date   

Re: Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

chris judge
 

I remember that beast. Never owned one. I believe it was a nokia model.

 

Chris Judge

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Monte Single
Sent: May 7, 2021 7:11 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

 

Hi John,

 

About 12 14 years ago,  there was a nokia cell phone with a version of Kurzweil on it.  I think it was the first cell phone with accessible o c r.

Of course,  it probably cost about 2 thousand dollars, but it did work.

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of John Holcomb II
Sent: May 7, 2021 3:15 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

 

Kurzweil phone?

What is that.

John

 

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Pamela Dominguez
Sent: Friday, May 07, 2021 3:35 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

 

I tried Orcam, and had it for two weeks and couldn’t get it to do much.  Since I didn’t want to get stuck with something I couldn’t use, I told the guy to take it back.  He tried to convince me to keep it and keep on trying, but like I said, I was afraid I would get stuck paying for something that didn’t work.  I remember I was able to do one thing with it: read a piece of mail better than my Kurzweil phone.  But that’s a lot of money to only do that.  Pam.

 

Sent: Friday, May 07, 2021 1:56 AM

Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

 

Orcam sounds incredible in theory, but because it requires you to stop to take pictures or use the auto mode which continuously takes pictures, I would say that it isn’t great for blind users who are on the move, and certainly won’t provide distance measurements, or tell you the direction of lines or arrows on a sign. If you want orcam, or the envision glasses for that matter, do yourself a favor and buy a head-mount, or even a chest mount, and open up the envision app, supersense, or any of the other apps that do the same thing, and you'll get most, if not all of what Orcam gives you. That is my view on Orcam.

 

On Thu, May 6, 2021, 22:42 Victor <victorelawrence@...> wrote:

From  my  research ,  the  best  all-around  mobility  device  seems  to  be  the  Orcam  device.   It  detects  objects, reads print, recognizes faces and more.  It probably doesn't replace the cane, but this Strap device hasn't been around long enough to prove itself.  Orcam has been on the market for a few years and I've read good things about it.

 

If I were to spend money on an advanced mobility device, and if the payments were affordable, Orcam is probably what I'd buy.

 

Victor

 

On May 6, 2021, at 5:09 PM, James Bentley <bentleyj1952@...> wrote:



The experimental Japanese robotic guide dog also got put down.  It couldn’t handle stairs.

 

James B 

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gerald Levy via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, May 6, 2021 5:30 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

 

 

Well, the NYPD's robotic dog didn't work out and had to be put down.  So don't count on a robotic guide dog any time soon.

 

Gerald

 

 

On 5/6/2021 5:39 PM, Pamela Dominguez wrote:

The only kind of guide dog I would ever have would be a robotic one.  Pam.

-----Original Message----- From: Carolyn Arnold
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2021 5:09 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

Probably there would be a little less maintenance with robotic guide dog.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io [mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io] On Behalf Of Pamela Dominguez
Sent: Thursday, May 6, 2021 2:57 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

I guess that would be good for all the people who have smart phones.  But it still wouldn’t be good for the rest of us.  Pam.

From: Victor mailto:victorelawrence@...
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2021 11:34 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io mailto:main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

If I were wealthy, I might purchase this device just to play with it and provide feedback to the developers. In the meantime, why can’t someone just develop existing smart phone apps to do the same thing? Why can’t we just place our smart phones in a wearable lanyard with the phone's camera facing away from our bodies to accomplish the same things? Supersense and other similar apps could accomplish the same things if these apps are developed a little more. If you want this device, go out and purchase it. As for me, I’m not going to run out and purchase this device just because it’s the latest thing that technology developers think is going to be great. They are probably wrong.

I think there was a recently published article about robotic seeing eye dogs. Honestly, I think such a device might be more useful than this device. Again, I have never wanted a seeing eye dog. However, a robotic seeing Eye dog might be useful.

Just my thoughts,

Victor



On May 6, 2021, at 7:43 AM, chris judge mailto:chrisjudge1967@... wrote:





I’m definitely interested. New tech is always exciting. I wouldn’t pre-order, at least not yet, but if it can do what they claim I may add it to my tech tool kit.



Chris Judge

<https://www.freedomscientific.com/Training/Certification>



From: main@TechTalk.groups.io mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io On Behalf Of Nimer Jaber
Sent: May 6, 2021 11:37 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device



Hello Dave,



This device is mounted to the chest for precisely the reason you mention, the issue that people with glasses or with arm bands and such end up moving about, thus making detecting obstacles more difficult. The chest tends to be relatively proportional with the direction the body is moving in.



They also state that Strap will detect cracks in the sidewalk, and assist users in travelling in a straight line. Is it trailing? Sort of, but no. Guide dog users don't trail either, as you know, and use different clues while traveling to get to where they wish to go.



I do have reservations, I don't think that this device, in its first iteration, will be a great cane replacement, but I do think the developers are worth supporting, and I do hope lots of people buy it to provide the devs feedback, and to help this kind of a product move forward. One concern I have is regarding detection of, for instance, doorways where the door is closed, but this can be a challenge, to different degrees and in different ways, with both a cane and a dog. The cane requires trailing which may be a bit difficult if there is, for instance, lots of outdoor displays or furniture, not to mention a bit noisy, and the dog may or may not want to indicate a particular doorway, and may confuse windows with doors.



Each mobility device has its pros and cons, but I do think that a product like this is worth taking notice of, and at least trying and providing meaningful feedback for.



On Thu, May 6, 2021 at 7:23 AM Dave <dlh007@... mailto:dlh007@... > wrote:

Devices like this have been made before.  I recall one such device that
was built into a pair of glasses.  Think they were called Sonar
Glasses.  The user needed to move their Head side to side back and forth
as well as up and down, to have the Beam cover the front, as the person
was walking.


Get to a set of Stairs, and the device would Beep a series of notes like
going up or down a scale.

Now, as far as I am concerned, if someone wants to purchase this type of
devise, go ahead.  If you think it will help you, by all means, go for it.


I can think of one aspect of using a Cane that might be  a problem using
this Strap Device.


I would be curious to try something like this, but at first glance, I
can't see how it could do as good of job as my Cane. But, again, don't
let my thoughts frighten you away.

How would a person Trail, as they are walking along?


Let's say I have one of those situations where I am walking on a walking
area made of pavement, which is blended into the street. On the left,
there is a White line that helps Sighted folks from walking out into the
street.  And on the right is a Seam, or very narrow Crack where the
pavement meets the Cement of a Store Front parking area.


With a Cane I can feel the Texture differences between the pavement and
the Cement, or I might be able to detect the Seam or Crack.  Not sure
how those Sonar device would help in this situation.


And like with the Sonar Glasses of years past, does the operator need to
continuously twist their body from side to side to have the sonar beams
cover what's on the left and right?  That could be an interesting Boogie
Woogie move for someone to do while they are walking.


Personally, I have used a Cane for years, and I did have a guide Dog
for  several years.  I found the Dog was in general, better than using a
Cane, especially in deep Snow and packed Ice conditions.


But, the up keep and care of the Dog, and the reactions to the Dog
others would exhibit were down sides for me.  And when my Dog was
retired, I decided to return to using a Cane.


I have good cane skills so going back was not an issue, unless it Snowed
four or five inches over night, and I now had to wait for others to walk
on the walk ways to make a path I could follow with a Cane.


However, if anyone has this device, or had something like it in the
past, I would be curious to hear of your experiences with it.



Grumpy Dave










 

Virus-free. www.avg.com


Need good OCR program

Nancy Shackelford
 

I just ran into a PDF file which has what I'm sure is a scanned image.
What is a good OCR piece of software to deal with this? Using NVDA and
have JAWS 2018.
Thanks,
Nance

--
Nancy Shackelford --Walk On Faith And Trust In Love - Michael Reid--


Re: Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

john s
 

James, I wouldn't either.  It couldn't detect cow pies.


At 02:56 AM 5/8/2021, James Bentley, wrote:

I wouldn’t try to cross a cow pasture with this thing.  Much less a busy intersection in New York City.

 

James B 

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gerald Levy via groups.io
Sent: Friday, May 7, 2021 10:17 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

 

 

These are the exact words taken from the Strap web site:

 

Explore your world with
the Innovation of STRAP



The world’s first total replacement of the white cane.



Nowhere on their web site does the company caution against using the Strap without previous O&M training.   This is a pretty extravagant claim that implies that no white cane is needed, and to assert that you can simply strap this device  onto your chest and navigate safely and independently solely on the basis of a short tutorial is irresponsible.  I can guarantee you that if a blind consumer without any specialized O&M training used the Strap exclusively as an aid for independent mobility and wound up getting seriously injured in an accident, the company would be sued out of existence.  I know a bunch of lawyers who would be licking their chops to take on such a case. 



Gerald



 

On 5/7/2021 10:20 AM, Gene wrote:

You continue to make straw man arguments or incorrect comparisons.  The device either will or will not be able to replace the cane, something I doubt.  I don’t think it should be presented and advertised in that way.  I don’t think the instructional material should make that claim, if it does.  At most, perhaps it might say that you may find that it can replace the cane and I’m not sure it should make a statement like that.  Perhaps it should say that it can serve to provide valuable additional information when traveling using a cane.  But that has nothing to do with whether the instructional material teaches use of the device effectively. 

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

From: Gerald Levy via groups.io

Sent: Friday, May 07, 2021 9:04 AM

To: main@TechTalk.groups.io

Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

 

 

Which may explain why none of gthem ever achieved commercial success. Keep in mind that the Strap is being promoted as an alternative to a white cane, not as an adjunct, so to market it to blind consumers as a stand-alone mobility aid and expect them to achieve safe mobility strictly by listening to a short tutorial is a recipe for certain failure.

 

Gerald

 

 

5/7/2021 9:14 AM, chris judge wrote:

I’ve been racking my old brain to come up with examples of products in the past that came with specialised training. Sorry but I’m drawing a blank.

 

Chris Judge

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io On Behalf Of Gerald Levy via groups.io
Sent: May 7, 2021 8:59 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

 

 

I make that assumption on the basis of someone who is hearing impaired.  Trying to accurately detect traffic flow patterens while wearing hearing aids is difficult enough without the added distraction of vibrations from an electronic mobility aid. Quite frankly, the company is taking a slapdash, lackadaisical attitude with regard to training by expecting purchasers to become adept in the use of the Strap simply by listening to a tutorial.  Do you know anyone who has ever become a successful white cane user simply by listening to a tutorial without any comprehensive personalized trainig from an O&M specialist?

 

Gerald

 

 

 

On 5/7/2021 7:32 AM, Gene wrote:

The podcast I linked to previously includes one of the developers explaining about the tutorial that comes with the device.  it demonstrates, by discussing and causing the device to make them, different haptic occurrences and what they mean.  the person says that after going through the short tutorial, the person learning the device might want to go outdoors using his cane and the device so he/she can learn how to use it in that way. 

 

In another message, you said the haptic vibrations might distract from traffic sounds.  I see no reason to believe that.  On what basis do you make such a statement?  Why should vibrations and other sensations on your chest and other areas of your body interfere with your concentration on hearing.  And if they do at first, anyone with any sense won’t go into traffic until they have learned to experience both without degredation.

 

I remain skeptical that this device will be widely used because of cost and because I am yet to be persuaded that it will give me the kind of detailed information I want such as the height of a curve or of steps in a flight of stairs..  But if independent knowledgeable and credible reviewers say this sort of information is given well, while I don’t think skilled cane or dog users will flock to purchase a 750 dollar device when what they have works well, at the same time, I don’t think learning to use the device and integrating it with cane or dog use will be a problem.  I just doubt very much that it is worth the money.

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

From: Victor

Sent: Friday, May 07, 2021 6:07 AM

To: main@techtalk.groups.io

Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

 

That’s a good question!

 

Victor

 

On May 7, 2021, at 3:56 AM, Gerald Levy via groups.io mailto:bwaylimited@... wrote:



 

What kind of personalized training is offered to purchasers of the Strap?  To sell this device without providing one on one training so that the purchaser is taught to wear and use it properly would be highly irresponsible. For such a mobility aid,printed instructions are insufficient. 

 

Gerald

 

 

On 5/7/2021 1:59 AM, Nimer Jaber wrote:

A couple of other things:

 

Orcam does not do obstacle detection, and it requires that you train it to detect specific faces.

 

On Thu, May 6, 2021, 22:42 Victor <victorelawrence@... > wrote:

From  my  research ,  the  best  all-around  mobility  device  seems  to  be  the  Orcam  device.   It  detects  objects, reads print, recognizes faces and more.  It probably doesn't replace the cane, but this Strap device hasn't been around long enough to prove itself.  Orcam has been on the market for a few years and I've read good things about it.

 

If I were to spend money on an advanced mobility device, and if the payments were affordable, Orcam is probably what I'd buy.

 

Victor

 

On May 6, 2021, at 5:09 PM, James Bentley <bentleyj1952@... > wrote:



The experimental Japanese robotic guide dog also got put down.  It couldn’t handle stairs.

 

James B 

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gerald Levy via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, May 6, 2021 5:30 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

 

 

Well, the NYPD's robotic dog didn't work out and had to be put down.  So don't count on a robotic guide dog any time soon.

 

Gerald

 

 

On 5/6/2021 5:39 PM, Pamela Dominguez wrote:

The only kind of guide dog I would ever have would be a robotic one.  Pam.

-----Original Message----- From: Carolyn Arnold
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2021 5:09 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

Probably there would be a little less maintenance with robotic guide dog.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io [ mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io] On Behalf Of Pamela Dominguez
Sent: Thursday, May 6, 2021 2:57 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

I guess that would be good for all the people who have smart phones.  But it still wouldn’t be good for the rest of us.  Pam.

From: Victor mailto:victorelawrence@...
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2021 11:34 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io mailto:main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

If I were wealthy, I might purchase this device just to play with it and provide feedback to the developers. In the meantime, why can’t someone just develop existing smart phone apps to do the same thing? Why can’t we just place our smart phones in a wearable lanyard with the phone's camera facing away from our bodies to accomplish the same things? Supersense and other similar apps could accomplish the same things if these apps are developed a little more. If you want this device, go out and purchase it. As for me, I’m not going to run out and purchase this device just because it’s the latest thing that technology developers think is going to be great. They are probably wrong.

I think there was a recently published article about robotic seeing eye dogs. Honestly, I think such a device might be more useful than this device. Again, I have never wanted a seeing eye dog. However, a robotic seeing Eye dog might be useful.

Just my thoughts,

Victor



On May 6, 2021, at 7:43 AM, chris judge mailto:chrisjudge1967@... wrote:





I’m definitely interested. New tech is always exciting. I wouldn’t pre-order, at least not yet, but if it can do what they claim I may add it to my tech tool kit.



Chris Judge

< https://www.freedomscientific.com/Training/Certification>



From: main@TechTalk.groups.io mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io On Behalf Of Nimer Jaber
Sent: May 6, 2021 11:37 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device



Hello Dave,



This device is mounted to the chest for precisely the reason you mention, the issue that people with glasses or with arm bands and such end up moving about, thus making detecting obstacles more difficult. The chest tends to be relatively proportional with the direction the body is moving in.



They also state that Strap will detect cracks in the sidewalk, and assist users in travelling in a straight line. Is it trailing? Sort of, but no. Guide dog users don't trail either, as you know, and use different clues while traveling to get to where they wish to go.



I do have reservations, I don't think that this device, in its first iteration, will be a great cane replacement, but I do think the developers are worth supporting, and I do hope lots of people buy it to provide the devs feedback, and to help this kind of a product move forward. One concern I have is regarding detection of, for instance, doorways where the door is closed, but this can be a challenge, to different degrees and in different ways, with both a cane and a dog. The cane requires trailing which may be a bit difficult if there is, for instance, lots of outdoor displays or furniture, not to mention a bit noisy, and the dog may or may not want to indicate a particular doorway, and may confuse windows with doors.



Each mobility device has its pros and cons, but I do think that a product like this is worth taking notice of, and at least trying and providing meaningful feedback for.



On Thu, May 6, 2021 at 7:23 AM Dave <dlh007@... mailto:dlh007@... > wrote:

Devices like this have been made before.  I recall one such device that
was built into a pair of glasses.  Think they were called Sonar
Glasses.  The user needed to move their Head side to side back and forth
as well as up and down, to have the Beam cover the front, as the person
was walking.


Get to a set of Stairs, and the device would Beep a series of notes like
going up or down a scale.

Now, as far as I am concerned, if someone wants to purchase this type of
devise, go ahead.  If you think it will help you, by all means, go for it.


I can think of one aspect of using a Cane that might be  a problem using
this Strap Device.


I would be curious to try something like this, but at first glance, I
can't see how it could do as good of job as my Cane. But, again, don't
let my thoughts frighten you away.

How would a person Trail, as they are walking along?


Let's say I have one of those situations where I am walking on a walking
area made of pavement, which is blended into the street. On the left,
there is a White line that helps Sighted folks from walking out into the
street.  And on the right is a Seam, or very narrow Crack where the
pavement meets the Cement of a Store Front parking area.


With a Cane I can feel the Texture differences between the pavement and
the Cement, or I might be able to detect the Seam or Crack.  Not sure
how those Sonar device would help in this situation.


And like with the Sonar Glasses of years past, does the operator need to
continuously twist their body from side to side to have the sonar beams
cover what's on the left and right?  That could be an interesting Boogie
Woogie move for someone to do while they are walking.


Personally, I have used a Cane for years, and I did have a guide Dog
for  several years.  I found the Dog was in general, better than using a
Cane, especially in deep Snow and packed Ice conditions.


But, the up keep and care of the Dog, and the reactions to the Dog
others would exhibit were down sides for me.  And when my Dog was
retired, I decided to return to using a Cane.


I have good cane skills so going back was not an issue, unless it Snowed
four or five inches over night, and I now had to wait for others to walk
on the walk ways to make a path I could follow with a Cane.


However, if anyone has this device, or had something like it in the
past, I would be curious to hear of your experiences with it.



Grumpy Dave











                 John


Re: Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

James Bentley
 

I wouldn’t try to cross a cow pasture with this thing.  Much less a busy intersection in New York City.

 

James B 

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gerald Levy via groups.io
Sent: Friday, May 7, 2021 10:17 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

 

 

These are the exact words taken from the Strap web site:

 

Explore your world with
the Innovation of STRAP

The world’s first total replacement of the white cane.



Nowhere on their web site does the company caution against using the Strap without previous O&M training.   This is a pretty extravagant claim that implies that no white cane is needed, and to assert that you can simply strap this device  onto your chest and navigate safely and independently solely on the basis of a short tutorial is irresponsible.  I can guarantee you that if a blind consumer without any specialized O&M training used the Strap exclusively as an aid for independent mobility and wound up getting seriously injured in an accident, the company would be sued out of existence.  I know a bunch of lawyers who would be licking their chops to take on such a case. 



Gerald



 

On 5/7/2021 10:20 AM, Gene wrote:

You continue to make straw man arguments or incorrect comparisons.  The device either will or will not be able to replace the cane, something I doubt.  I don’t think it should be presented and advertised in that way.  I don’t think the instructional material should make that claim, if it does.  At most, perhaps it might say that you may find that it can replace the cane and I’m not sure it should make a statement like that.  Perhaps it should say that it can serve to provide valuable additional information when traveling using a cane.  But that has nothing to do with whether the instructional material teaches use of the device effectively. 

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Friday, May 07, 2021 9:04 AM

Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

 

 

Which may explain why none of gthem ever achieved commercial success. Keep in mind that the Strap is being promoted as an alternative to a white cane, not as an adjunct, so to market it to blind consumers as a stand-alone mobility aid and expect them to achieve safe mobility strictly by listening to a short tutorial is a recipe for certain failure.

 

Gerald

 

 

5/7/2021 9:14 AM, chris judge wrote:

I’ve been racking my old brain to come up with examples of products in the past that came with specialised training. Sorry but I’m drawing a blank.

 

Chris Judge

 

 

 

I make that assumption on the basis of someone who is hearing impaired.  Trying to accurately detect traffic flow patterens while wearing hearing aids is difficult enough without the added distraction of vibrations from an electronic mobility aid. Quite frankly, the company is taking a slapdash, lackadaisical attitude with regard to training by expecting purchasers to become adept in the use of the Strap simply by listening to a tutorial.  Do you know anyone who has ever become a successful white cane user simply by listening to a tutorial without any comprehensive personalized trainig from an O&M specialist?

 

Gerald

 

 

 

Victor



 

What kind of personalized training is offered to purchasers of the Strap?  To sell this device without providing one on one training so that the purchaser is taught to wear and use it properly would be highly irresponsible. For such a mobility aid,printed instructions are insufficient. 

 

Gerald

 

 

From  my  research ,  the  best  all-around  mobility  device  seems  to  be  the  Orcam  device.   It  detects  objects, reads print, recognizes faces and more.  It probably doesn't replace the cane, but this Strap device hasn't been around long enough to prove itself.  Orcam has been on the market for a few years and I've read good things about it.

Victor



The experimental Japanese robotic guide dog also got put down.  It couldn’t handle stairs.

 

James B 

 

 

 

Well, the NYPD's robotic dog didn't work out and had to be put down.  So don't count on a robotic guide dog any time soon.

 

Gerald

 

 

The only kind of guide dog I would ever have would be a robotic one.  Pam.

-----Original Message----- From: Carolyn Arnold
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2021 5:09 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

Probably there would be a little less maintenance with robotic guide dog.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io [mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io] On Behalf Of Pamela Dominguez
Sent: Thursday, May 6, 2021 2:57 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

I guess that would be good for all the people who have smart phones.  But it still wouldn’t be good for the rest of us.  Pam.

From: Victor mailto:victorelawrence@...
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2021 11:34 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io mailto:main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

If I were wealthy, I might purchase this device just to play with it and provide feedback to the developers. In the meantime, why can’t someone just develop existing smart phone apps to do the same thing? Why can’t we just place our smart phones in a wearable lanyard with the phone's camera facing away from our bodies to accomplish the same things? Supersense and other similar apps could accomplish the same things if these apps are developed a little more. If you want this device, go out and purchase it. As for me, I’m not going to run out and purchase this device just because it’s the latest thing that technology developers think is going to be great. They are probably wrong.

I think there was a recently published article about robotic seeing eye dogs. Honestly, I think such a device might be more useful than this device. Again, I have never wanted a seeing eye dog. However, a robotic seeing Eye dog might be useful.

Just my thoughts,

Victor



On May 6, 2021, at 7:43 AM, chris judge mailto:chrisjudge1967@... wrote:





I’m definitely interested. New tech is always exciting. I wouldn’t pre-order, at least not yet, but if it can do what they claim I may add it to my tech tool kit.



Chris Judge

<https://www.freedomscientific.com/Training/Certification>



From: main@TechTalk.groups.io mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io On Behalf Of Nimer Jaber
Sent: May 6, 2021 11:37 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device



Hello Dave,



This device is mounted to the chest for precisely the reason you mention, the issue that people with glasses or with arm bands and such end up moving about, thus making detecting obstacles more difficult. The chest tends to be relatively proportional with the direction the body is moving in.



They also state that Strap will detect cracks in the sidewalk, and assist users in travelling in a straight line. Is it trailing? Sort of, but no. Guide dog users don't trail either, as you know, and use different clues while traveling to get to where they wish to go.



I do have reservations, I don't think that this device, in its first iteration, will be a great cane replacement, but I do think the developers are worth supporting, and I do hope lots of people buy it to provide the devs feedback, and to help this kind of a product move forward. One concern I have is regarding detection of, for instance, doorways where the door is closed, but this can be a challenge, to different degrees and in different ways, with both a cane and a dog. The cane requires trailing which may be a bit difficult if there is, for instance, lots of outdoor displays or furniture, not to mention a bit noisy, and the dog may or may not want to indicate a particular doorway, and may confuse windows with doors.



Each mobility device has its pros and cons, but I do think that a product like this is worth taking notice of, and at least trying and providing meaningful feedback for.



On Thu, May 6, 2021 at 7:23 AM Dave <dlh007@... mailto:dlh007@... > wrote:

Devices like this have been made before.  I recall one such device that
was built into a pair of glasses.  Think they were called Sonar
Glasses.  The user needed to move their Head side to side back and forth
as well as up and down, to have the Beam cover the front, as the person
was walking.


Get to a set of Stairs, and the device would Beep a series of notes like
going up or down a scale.

Now, as far as I am concerned, if someone wants to purchase this type of
devise, go ahead.  If you think it will help you, by all means, go for it.


I can think of one aspect of using a Cane that might be  a problem using
this Strap Device.


I would be curious to try something like this, but at first glance, I
can't see how it could do as good of job as my Cane. But, again, don't
let my thoughts frighten you away.

How would a person Trail, as they are walking along?


Let's say I have one of those situations where I am walking on a walking
area made of pavement, which is blended into the street. On the left,
there is a White line that helps Sighted folks from walking out into the
street.  And on the right is a Seam, or very narrow Crack where the
pavement meets the Cement of a Store Front parking area.


With a Cane I can feel the Texture differences between the pavement and
the Cement, or I might be able to detect the Seam or Crack.  Not sure
how those Sonar device would help in this situation.


And like with the Sonar Glasses of years past, does the operator need to
continuously twist their body from side to side to have the sonar beams
cover what's on the left and right?  That could be an interesting Boogie
Woogie move for someone to do while they are walking.


Personally, I have used a Cane for years, and I did have a guide Dog
for  several years.  I found the Dog was in general, better than using a
Cane, especially in deep Snow and packed Ice conditions.


But, the up keep and care of the Dog, and the reactions to the Dog
others would exhibit were down sides for me.  And when my Dog was
retired, I decided to return to using a Cane.


I have good cane skills so going back was not an issue, unless it Snowed
four or five inches over night, and I now had to wait for others to walk
on the walk ways to make a path I could follow with a Cane.


However, if anyone has this device, or had something like it in the
past, I would be curious to hear of your experiences with it.



Grumpy Dave












Re: Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

Dave
 

I wonder if this Strap device would work better for someone with very low vision, rather than being totally blind. 


Perhaps  someone with low vision may be able to leave their White Cane at home, but I can't see this for someone who is Total. 


And there are more possible customers who are low vision than those who are total. 


Perhaps the web site needs to pin point better who they hope to attract as customers?


Grumpy Dave



On 5/7/2021 9:16 AM, Gene wrote:
I didn’t say anything about the web site indicating this.  I have said that the web site is very insufficient in a message early in the thread.  I sent a message a little later in the thread where I linked to a Blind Abilities podcast in which the tutorial is discussed.  There have been other podcasts where developers have discussed the product.  I didn’t discuss those in later messages, but I think they were linked to by another member.  Did you see any of my messages? 
 
I’m not defending the poorly implemented web site with its not very informative FAQ nor the high pressure announcement on the home page about the introductory sale price nor the claim that the device will replace the cane.  I’m saying that in spite of their mishandling of all this, the product itself must be evaluated on its own terms and the tutorial, from what is said in the podcast, may be adequate.
 
Gene
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, May 07, 2021 10:16 AM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device
 

 

These are the exact words taken from the Strap web site:


Explore your world with
the Innovation of STRAP

The world’s first total replacement of the white cane.


Nowhere on their web site does the company caution against using the Strap without previous O&M training.   This is a pretty extravagant claim that implies that no white cane is needed, and to assert that you can simply strap this device  onto your chest and navigate safely and independently solely on the basis of a short tutorial is irresponsible.  I can guarantee you that if a blind consumer without any specialized O&M training used the Strap exclusively as an aid for independent mobility and wound up getting seriously injured in an accident, the company would be sued out of existence.  I know a bunch of lawyers who would be licking their chops to take on such a case. 


Gerald



On 5/7/2021 10:20 AM, Gene wrote:
You continue to make straw man arguments or incorrect comparisons.  The device either will or will not be able to replace the cane, something I doubt.  I don’t think it should be presented and advertised in that way.  I don’t think the instructional material should make that claim, if it does.  At most, perhaps it might say that you may find that it can replace the cane and I’m not sure it should make a statement like that.  Perhaps it should say that it can serve to provide valuable additional information when traveling using a cane.  But that has nothing to do with whether the instructional material teaches use of the device effectively. 
 
Gene
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, May 07, 2021 9:04 AM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device
 

 

Which may explain why none of gthem ever achieved commercial success. Keep in mind that the Strap is being promoted as an alternative to a white cane, not as an adjunct, so to market it to blind consumers as a stand-alone mobility aid and expect them to achieve safe mobility strictly by listening to a short tutorial is a recipe for certain failure.

 

Gerald

 

5/7/2021 9:14 AM, chris judge wrote:

I’ve been racking my old brain to come up with examples of products in the past that came with specialised training. Sorry but I’m drawing a blank.

 

Chris Judge

JAWS
                                  Certified, 2021

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io On Behalf Of Gerald Levy via groups.io
Sent: May 7, 2021 8:59 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

 

 

I make that assumption on the basis of someone who is hearing impaired.  Trying to accurately detect traffic flow patterens while wearing hearing aids is difficult enough without the added distraction of vibrations from an electronic mobility aid. Quite frankly, the company is taking a slapdash, lackadaisical attitude with regard to training by expecting purchasers to become adept in the use of the Strap simply by listening to a tutorial.  Do you know anyone who has ever become a successful white cane user simply by listening to a tutorial without any comprehensive personalized trainig from an O&M specialist?

 

Gerald

 

 

 

On 5/7/2021 7:32 AM, Gene wrote:

The podcast I linked to previously includes one of the developers explaining about the tutorial that comes with the device.  it demonstrates, by discussing and causing the device to make them, different haptic occurrences and what they mean.  the person says that after going through the short tutorial, the person learning the device might want to go outdoors using his cane and the device so he/she can learn how to use it in that way. 

 

In another message, you said the haptic vibrations might distract from traffic sounds.  I see no reason to believe that.  On what basis do you make such a statement?  Why should vibrations and other sensations on your chest and other areas of your body interfere with your concentration on hearing.  And if they do at first, anyone with any sense won’t go into traffic until they have learned to experience both without degredation.

 

I remain skeptical that this device will be widely used because of cost and because I am yet to be persuaded that it will give me the kind of detailed information I want such as the height of a curve or of steps in a flight of stairs..  But if independent knowledgeable and credible reviewers say this sort of information is given well, while I don’t think skilled cane or dog users will flock to purchase a 750 dollar device when what they have works well, at the same time, I don’t think learning to use the device and integrating it with cane or dog use will be a problem.  I just doubt very much that it is worth the money.

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

From: Victor

Sent: Friday, May 07, 2021 6:07 AM

Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

 

That’s a good question!

 

Victor



On May 7, 2021, at 3:56 AM, Gerald Levy via groups.io mailto:bwaylimited@... wrote:



 

What kind of personalized training is offered to purchasers of the Strap?  To sell this device without providing one on one training so that the purchaser is taught to wear and use it properly would be highly irresponsible. For such a mobility aid,printed instructions are insufficient. 

 

Gerald

 

 

On 5/7/2021 1:59 AM, Nimer Jaber wrote:

A couple of other things:

 

Orcam does not do obstacle detection, and it requires that you train it to detect specific faces.

 

On Thu, May 6, 2021, 22:42 Victor <victorelawrence@...> wrote:

From  my  research ,  the  best  all-around  mobility  device  seems  to  be  the  Orcam  device.   It  detects  objects, reads print, recognizes faces and more.  It probably doesn't replace the cane, but this Strap device hasn't been around long enough to prove itself.  Orcam has been on the market for a few years and I've read good things about it.

 

If I were to spend money on an advanced mobility device, and if the payments were affordable, Orcam is probably what I'd buy.

 

Victor



On May 6, 2021, at 5:09 PM, James Bentley <bentleyj1952@...> wrote:



The experimental Japanese robotic guide dog also got put down.  It couldn’t handle stairs.

 

James B 

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gerald Levy via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, May 6, 2021 5:30 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

 

 

Well, the NYPD's robotic dog didn't work out and had to be put down.  So don't count on a robotic guide dog any time soon.

 

Gerald

 

 

On 5/6/2021 5:39 PM, Pamela Dominguez wrote:

The only kind of guide dog I would ever have would be a robotic one.  Pam.

-----Original Message----- From: Carolyn Arnold
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2021 5:09 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

Probably there would be a little less maintenance with robotic guide dog.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io [mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io] On Behalf Of Pamela Dominguez
Sent: Thursday, May 6, 2021 2:57 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

I guess that would be good for all the people who have smart phones.  But it still wouldn’t be good for the rest of us.  Pam.

From: Victor mailto:victorelawrence@...
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2021 11:34 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io mailto:main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

If I were wealthy, I might purchase this device just to play with it and provide feedback to the developers. In the meantime, why can’t someone just develop existing smart phone apps to do the same thing? Why can’t we just place our smart phones in a wearable lanyard with the phone's camera facing away from our bodies to accomplish the same things? Supersense and other similar apps could accomplish the same things if these apps are developed a little more. If you want this device, go out and purchase it. As for me, I’m not going to run out and purchase this device just because it’s the latest thing that technology developers think is going to be great. They are probably wrong.

I think there was a recently published article about robotic seeing eye dogs. Honestly, I think such a device might be more useful than this device. Again, I have never wanted a seeing eye dog. However, a robotic seeing Eye dog might be useful.

Just my thoughts,

Victor



On May 6, 2021, at 7:43 AM, chris judge mailto:chrisjudge1967@... wrote:





I’m definitely interested. New tech is always exciting. I wouldn’t pre-order, at least not yet, but if it can do what they claim I may add it to my tech tool kit.



Chris Judge

<https://www.freedomscientific.com/Training/Certification>



From: main@TechTalk.groups.io mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io On Behalf Of Nimer Jaber
Sent: May 6, 2021 11:37 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device



Hello Dave,



This device is mounted to the chest for precisely the reason you mention, the issue that people with glasses or with arm bands and such end up moving about, thus making detecting obstacles more difficult. The chest tends to be relatively proportional with the direction the body is moving in.



They also state that Strap will detect cracks in the sidewalk, and assist users in travelling in a straight line. Is it trailing? Sort of, but no. Guide dog users don't trail either, as you know, and use different clues while traveling to get to where they wish to go.



I do have reservations, I don't think that this device, in its first iteration, will be a great cane replacement, but I do think the developers are worth supporting, and I do hope lots of people buy it to provide the devs feedback, and to help this kind of a product move forward. One concern I have is regarding detection of, for instance, doorways where the door is closed, but this can be a challenge, to different degrees and in different ways, with both a cane and a dog. The cane requires trailing which may be a bit difficult if there is, for instance, lots of outdoor displays or furniture, not to mention a bit noisy, and the dog may or may not want to indicate a particular doorway, and may confuse windows with doors.



Each mobility device has its pros and cons, but I do think that a product like this is worth taking notice of, and at least trying and providing meaningful feedback for.



On Thu, May 6, 2021 at 7:23 AM Dave <dlh007@... mailto:dlh007@... > wrote:

Devices like this have been made before.  I recall one such device that
was built into a pair of glasses.  Think they were called Sonar
Glasses.  The user needed to move their Head side to side back and forth
as well as up and down, to have the Beam cover the front, as the person
was walking.


Get to a set of Stairs, and the device would Beep a series of notes like
going up or down a scale.

Now, as far as I am concerned, if someone wants to purchase this type of
devise, go ahead.  If you think it will help you, by all means, go for it.


I can think of one aspect of using a Cane that might be  a problem using
this Strap Device.


I would be curious to try something like this, but at first glance, I
can't see how it could do as good of job as my Cane. But, again, don't
let my thoughts frighten you away.

How would a person Trail, as they are walking along?


Let's say I have one of those situations where I am walking on a walking
area made of pavement, which is blended into the street. On the left,
there is a White line that helps Sighted folks from walking out into the
street.  And on the right is a Seam, or very narrow Crack where the
pavement meets the Cement of a Store Front parking area.


With a Cane I can feel the Texture differences between the pavement and
the Cement, or I might be able to detect the Seam or Crack.  Not sure
how those Sonar device would help in this situation.


And like with the Sonar Glasses of years past, does the operator need to
continuously twist their body from side to side to have the sonar beams
cover what's on the left and right?  That could be an interesting Boogie
Woogie move for someone to do while they are walking.


Personally, I have used a Cane for years, and I did have a guide Dog
for  several years.  I found the Dog was in general, better than using a
Cane, especially in deep Snow and packed Ice conditions.


But, the up keep and care of the Dog, and the reactions to the Dog
others would exhibit were down sides for me.  And when my Dog was
retired, I decided to return to using a Cane.


I have good cane skills so going back was not an issue, unless it Snowed
four or five inches over night, and I now had to wait for others to walk
on the walk ways to make a path I could follow with a Cane.


However, if anyone has this device, or had something like it in the
past, I would be curious to hear of your experiences with it.



Grumpy Dave













Re: Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

brian
 

    I really like the orcam it's great to have a portable reading machine.  When you go out to eat you can read the menu no need forbraille menus they are often out of date anyway.  It is good for reading your mail but it is good for reading anywhear you are at and you want to read somthing.  It just fits in your pants pocket.  I don't have a smart phone so the orcam is good for those of who don'thave smart phones.  I am so glad to finally have a portable reading maching I have the sara and it's not portable at all.  It is a great machine but it's nice to have both machines. 

Brian Sackrider

On 5/7/2021 3:34 PM, Pamela Dominguez wrote:
I tried Orcam, and had it for two weeks and couldn’t get it to do much.  Since I didn’t want to get stuck with something I couldn’t use, I told the guy to take it back.  He tried to convince me to keep it and keep on trying, but like I said, I was afraid I would get stuck paying for something that didn’t work.  I remember I was able to do one thing with it: read a piece of mail better than my Kurzweil phone.  But that’s a lot of money to only do that.  Pam.
 
Sent: Friday, May 07, 2021 1:56 AM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device
 
Orcam sounds incredible in theory, but because it requires you to stop to take pictures or use the auto mode which continuously takes pictures, I would say that it isn’t great for blind users who are on the move, and certainly won’t provide distance measurements, or tell you the direction of lines or arrows on a sign. If you want orcam, or the envision glasses for that matter, do yourself a favor and buy a head-mount, or even a chest mount, and open up the envision app, supersense, or any of the other apps that do the same thing, and you'll get most, if not all of what Orcam gives you. That is my view on Orcam.
 
On Thu, May 6, 2021, 22:42 Victor <victorelawrence@...> wrote:
From  my  research ,  the  best  all-around  mobility  device  seems  to  be  the  Orcam  device.   It  detects  objects, reads print, recognizes faces and more.  It probably doesn't replace the cane, but this Strap device hasn't been around long enough to prove itself.  Orcam has been on the market for a few years and I've read good things about it.
 
If I were to spend money on an advanced mobility device, and if the payments were affordable, Orcam is probably what I'd buy.
 
Victor


On May 6, 2021, at 5:09 PM, James Bentley <bentleyj1952@...> wrote:



The experimental Japanese robotic guide dog also got put down.  It couldn’t handle stairs.

 

James B 

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gerald Levy via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, May 6, 2021 5:30 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

 

 

Well, the NYPD's robotic dog didn't work out and had to be put down.  So don't count on a robotic guide dog any time soon.

 

Gerald

 

 

On 5/6/2021 5:39 PM, Pamela Dominguez wrote:

The only kind of guide dog I would ever have would be a robotic one.  Pam.

-----Original Message----- From: Carolyn Arnold
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2021 5:09 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

Probably there would be a little less maintenance with robotic guide dog.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io [mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io] On Behalf Of Pamela Dominguez
Sent: Thursday, May 6, 2021 2:57 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

I guess that would be good for all the people who have smart phones.  But it still wouldn’t be good for the rest of us.  Pam.

From: Victor mailto:victorelawrence@...
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2021 11:34 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io mailto:main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

If I were wealthy, I might purchase this device just to play with it and provide feedback to the developers. In the meantime, why can’t someone just develop existing smart phone apps to do the same thing? Why can’t we just place our smart phones in a wearable lanyard with the phone's camera facing away from our bodies to accomplish the same things? Supersense and other similar apps could accomplish the same things if these apps are developed a little more. If you want this device, go out and purchase it. As for me, I’m not going to run out and purchase this device just because it’s the latest thing that technology developers think is going to be great. They are probably wrong.

I think there was a recently published article about robotic seeing eye dogs. Honestly, I think such a device might be more useful than this device. Again, I have never wanted a seeing eye dog. However, a robotic seeing Eye dog might be useful.

Just my thoughts,

Victor



On May 6, 2021, at 7:43 AM, chris judge mailto:chrisjudge1967@... wrote:





I’m definitely interested. New tech is always exciting. I wouldn’t pre-order, at least not yet, but if it can do what they claim I may add it to my tech tool kit.



Chris Judge

<https://www.freedomscientific.com/Training/Certification>



From: main@TechTalk.groups.io mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io On Behalf Of Nimer Jaber
Sent: May 6, 2021 11:37 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device



Hello Dave,



This device is mounted to the chest for precisely the reason you mention, the issue that people with glasses or with arm bands and such end up moving about, thus making detecting obstacles more difficult. The chest tends to be relatively proportional with the direction the body is moving in.



They also state that Strap will detect cracks in the sidewalk, and assist users in travelling in a straight line. Is it trailing? Sort of, but no. Guide dog users don't trail either, as you know, and use different clues while traveling to get to where they wish to go.



I do have reservations, I don't think that this device, in its first iteration, will be a great cane replacement, but I do think the developers are worth supporting, and I do hope lots of people buy it to provide the devs feedback, and to help this kind of a product move forward. One concern I have is regarding detection of, for instance, doorways where the door is closed, but this can be a challenge, to different degrees and in different ways, with both a cane and a dog. The cane requires trailing which may be a bit difficult if there is, for instance, lots of outdoor displays or furniture, not to mention a bit noisy, and the dog may or may not want to indicate a particular doorway, and may confuse windows with doors.



Each mobility device has its pros and cons, but I do think that a product like this is worth taking notice of, and at least trying and providing meaningful feedback for.



On Thu, May 6, 2021 at 7:23 AM Dave <dlh007@... mailto:dlh007@... > wrote:

Devices like this have been made before.  I recall one such device that
was built into a pair of glasses.  Think they were called Sonar
Glasses.  The user needed to move their Head side to side back and forth
as well as up and down, to have the Beam cover the front, as the person
was walking.


Get to a set of Stairs, and the device would Beep a series of notes like
going up or down a scale.

Now, as far as I am concerned, if someone wants to purchase this type of
devise, go ahead.  If you think it will help you, by all means, go for it.


I can think of one aspect of using a Cane that might be  a problem using
this Strap Device.


I would be curious to try something like this, but at first glance, I
can't see how it could do as good of job as my Cane. But, again, don't
let my thoughts frighten you away.

How would a person Trail, as they are walking along?


Let's say I have one of those situations where I am walking on a walking
area made of pavement, which is blended into the street. On the left,
there is a White line that helps Sighted folks from walking out into the
street.  And on the right is a Seam, or very narrow Crack where the
pavement meets the Cement of a Store Front parking area.


With a Cane I can feel the Texture differences between the pavement and
the Cement, or I might be able to detect the Seam or Crack.  Not sure
how those Sonar device would help in this situation.


And like with the Sonar Glasses of years past, does the operator need to
continuously twist their body from side to side to have the sonar beams
cover what's on the left and right?  That could be an interesting Boogie
Woogie move for someone to do while they are walking.


Personally, I have used a Cane for years, and I did have a guide Dog
for  several years.  I found the Dog was in general, better than using a
Cane, especially in deep Snow and packed Ice conditions.


But, the up keep and care of the Dog, and the reactions to the Dog
others would exhibit were down sides for me.  And when my Dog was
retired, I decided to return to using a Cane.


I have good cane skills so going back was not an issue, unless it Snowed
four or five inches over night, and I now had to wait for others to walk
on the walk ways to make a path I could follow with a Cane.


However, if anyone has this device, or had something like it in the
past, I would be curious to hear of your experiences with it.



Grumpy Dave














Virus-free. www.avg.com


Re: Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

Pamela Dominguez
 

My old Nokia phone with the KNFB reader in it.  Pam.
 

Sent: Friday, May 07, 2021 5:14 PM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device
 

Kurzweil phone?

What is that.

John

 

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Pamela Dominguez
Sent: Friday, May 07, 2021 3:35 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

 

I tried Orcam, and had it for two weeks and couldn’t get it to do much.  Since I didn’t want to get stuck with something I couldn’t use, I told the guy to take it back.  He tried to convince me to keep it and keep on trying, but like I said, I was afraid I would get stuck paying for something that didn’t work.  I remember I was able to do one thing with it: read a piece of mail better than my Kurzweil phone.  But that’s a lot of money to only do that.  Pam.

 

From: Nimer Jaber

Sent: Friday, May 07, 2021 1:56 AM

Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

 

Orcam sounds incredible in theory, but because it requires you to stop to take pictures or use the auto mode which continuously takes pictures, I would say that it isn’t great for blind users who are on the move, and certainly won’t provide distance measurements, or tell you the direction of lines or arrows on a sign. If you want orcam, or the envision glasses for that matter, do yourself a favor and buy a head-mount, or even a chest mount, and open up the envision app, supersense, or any of the other apps that do the same thing, and you'll get most, if not all of what Orcam gives you. That is my view on Orcam.

 

On Thu, May 6, 2021, 22:42 Victor <victorelawrence@...> wrote:

From  my  research ,  the  best  all-around  mobility  device  seems  to  be  the  Orcam  device.   It  detects  objects, reads print, recognizes faces and more.  It probably doesn't replace the cane, but this Strap device hasn't been around long enough to prove itself.  Orcam has been on the market for a few years and I've read good things about it.

 

If I were to spend money on an advanced mobility device, and if the payments were affordable, Orcam is probably what I'd buy.

 

Victor



On May 6, 2021, at 5:09 PM, James Bentley <bentleyj1952@...> wrote:



The experimental Japanese robotic guide dog also got put down.  It couldn’t handle stairs.

 

James B 

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gerald Levy via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, May 6, 2021 5:30 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

 

 

Well, the NYPD's robotic dog didn't work out and had to be put down.  So don't count on a robotic guide dog any time soon.

 

Gerald

 

 

On 5/6/2021 5:39 PM, Pamela Dominguez wrote:

The only kind of guide dog I would ever have would be a robotic one.  Pam.

-----Original Message----- From: Carolyn Arnold
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2021 5:09 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

Probably there would be a little less maintenance with robotic guide dog.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io [mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io] On Behalf Of Pamela Dominguez
Sent: Thursday, May 6, 2021 2:57 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

I guess that would be good for all the people who have smart phones.  But it still wouldn’t be good for the rest of us.  Pam.

From: Victor mailto:victorelawrence@...
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2021 11:34 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io mailto:main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

If I were wealthy, I might purchase this device just to play with it and provide feedback to the developers. In the meantime, why can’t someone just develop existing smart phone apps to do the same thing? Why can’t we just place our smart phones in a wearable lanyard with the phone's camera facing away from our bodies to accomplish the same things? Supersense and other similar apps could accomplish the same things if these apps are developed a little more. If you want this device, go out and purchase it. As for me, I’m not going to run out and purchase this device just because it’s the latest thing that technology developers think is going to be great. They are probably wrong.

I think there was a recently published article about robotic seeing eye dogs. Honestly, I think such a device might be more useful than this device. Again, I have never wanted a seeing eye dog. However, a robotic seeing Eye dog might be useful.

Just my thoughts,

Victor



On May 6, 2021, at 7:43 AM, chris judge mailto:chrisjudge1967@... wrote:





I’m definitely interested. New tech is always exciting. I wouldn’t pre-order, at least not yet, but if it can do what they claim I may add it to my tech tool kit.



Chris Judge

<https://www.freedomscientific.com/Training/Certification>



From: main@TechTalk.groups.io mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io On Behalf Of Nimer Jaber
Sent: May 6, 2021 11:37 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device



Hello Dave,



This device is mounted to the chest for precisely the reason you mention, the issue that people with glasses or with arm bands and such end up moving about, thus making detecting obstacles more difficult. The chest tends to be relatively proportional with the direction the body is moving in.



They also state that Strap will detect cracks in the sidewalk, and assist users in travelling in a straight line. Is it trailing? Sort of, but no. Guide dog users don't trail either, as you know, and use different clues while traveling to get to where they wish to go.



I do have reservations, I don't think that this device, in its first iteration, will be a great cane replacement, but I do think the developers are worth supporting, and I do hope lots of people buy it to provide the devs feedback, and to help this kind of a product move forward. One concern I have is regarding detection of, for instance, doorways where the door is closed, but this can be a challenge, to different degrees and in different ways, with both a cane and a dog. The cane requires trailing which may be a bit difficult if there is, for instance, lots of outdoor displays or furniture, not to mention a bit noisy, and the dog may or may not want to indicate a particular doorway, and may confuse windows with doors.



Each mobility device has its pros and cons, but I do think that a product like this is worth taking notice of, and at least trying and providing meaningful feedback for.



On Thu, May 6, 2021 at 7:23 AM Dave <dlh007@... mailto:dlh007@... > wrote:

Devices like this have been made before.  I recall one such device that
was built into a pair of glasses.  Think they were called Sonar
Glasses.  The user needed to move their Head side to side back and forth
as well as up and down, to have the Beam cover the front, as the person
was walking.


Get to a set of Stairs, and the device would Beep a series of notes like
going up or down a scale.

Now, as far as I am concerned, if someone wants to purchase this type of
devise, go ahead.  If you think it will help you, by all means, go for it.


I can think of one aspect of using a Cane that might be  a problem using
this Strap Device.


I would be curious to try something like this, but at first glance, I
can't see how it could do as good of job as my Cane. But, again, don't
let my thoughts frighten you away.

How would a person Trail, as they are walking along?


Let's say I have one of those situations where I am walking on a walking
area made of pavement, which is blended into the street. On the left,
there is a White line that helps Sighted folks from walking out into the
street.  And on the right is a Seam, or very narrow Crack where the
pavement meets the Cement of a Store Front parking area.


With a Cane I can feel the Texture differences between the pavement and
the Cement, or I might be able to detect the Seam or Crack.  Not sure
how those Sonar device would help in this situation.


And like with the Sonar Glasses of years past, does the operator need to
continuously twist their body from side to side to have the sonar beams
cover what's on the left and right?  That could be an interesting Boogie
Woogie move for someone to do while they are walking.


Personally, I have used a Cane for years, and I did have a guide Dog
for  several years.  I found the Dog was in general, better than using a
Cane, especially in deep Snow and packed Ice conditions.


But, the up keep and care of the Dog, and the reactions to the Dog
others would exhibit were down sides for me.  And when my Dog was
retired, I decided to return to using a Cane.


I have good cane skills so going back was not an issue, unless it Snowed
four or five inches over night, and I now had to wait for others to walk
on the walk ways to make a path I could follow with a Cane.


However, if anyone has this device, or had something like it in the
past, I would be curious to hear of your experiences with it.



Grumpy Dave












 

Virus-free. www.avg.com


Re: Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

Monte Single
 

Hi John,

 

About 12 14 years ago,  there was a nokia cell phone with a version of Kurzweil on it.  I think it was the first cell phone with accessible o c r.

Of course,  it probably cost about 2 thousand dollars, but it did work.

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of John Holcomb II
Sent: May 7, 2021 3:15 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

 

Kurzweil phone?

What is that.

John

 

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Pamela Dominguez
Sent: Friday, May 07, 2021 3:35 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

 

I tried Orcam, and had it for two weeks and couldn’t get it to do much.  Since I didn’t want to get stuck with something I couldn’t use, I told the guy to take it back.  He tried to convince me to keep it and keep on trying, but like I said, I was afraid I would get stuck paying for something that didn’t work.  I remember I was able to do one thing with it: read a piece of mail better than my Kurzweil phone.  But that’s a lot of money to only do that.  Pam.

 

Sent: Friday, May 07, 2021 1:56 AM

Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

 

Orcam sounds incredible in theory, but because it requires you to stop to take pictures or use the auto mode which continuously takes pictures, I would say that it isn’t great for blind users who are on the move, and certainly won’t provide distance measurements, or tell you the direction of lines or arrows on a sign. If you want orcam, or the envision glasses for that matter, do yourself a favor and buy a head-mount, or even a chest mount, and open up the envision app, supersense, or any of the other apps that do the same thing, and you'll get most, if not all of what Orcam gives you. That is my view on Orcam.

 

On Thu, May 6, 2021, 22:42 Victor <victorelawrence@...> wrote:

From  my  research ,  the  best  all-around  mobility  device  seems  to  be  the  Orcam  device.   It  detects  objects, reads print, recognizes faces and more.  It probably doesn't replace the cane, but this Strap device hasn't been around long enough to prove itself.  Orcam has been on the market for a few years and I've read good things about it.

 

If I were to spend money on an advanced mobility device, and if the payments were affordable, Orcam is probably what I'd buy.

 

Victor

 

On May 6, 2021, at 5:09 PM, James Bentley <bentleyj1952@...> wrote:



The experimental Japanese robotic guide dog also got put down.  It couldn’t handle stairs.

 

James B 

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gerald Levy via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, May 6, 2021 5:30 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

 

 

Well, the NYPD's robotic dog didn't work out and had to be put down.  So don't count on a robotic guide dog any time soon.

 

Gerald

 

 

On 5/6/2021 5:39 PM, Pamela Dominguez wrote:

The only kind of guide dog I would ever have would be a robotic one.  Pam.

-----Original Message----- From: Carolyn Arnold
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2021 5:09 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

Probably there would be a little less maintenance with robotic guide dog.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io [mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io] On Behalf Of Pamela Dominguez
Sent: Thursday, May 6, 2021 2:57 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

I guess that would be good for all the people who have smart phones.  But it still wouldn’t be good for the rest of us.  Pam.

From: Victor mailto:victorelawrence@...
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2021 11:34 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io mailto:main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

If I were wealthy, I might purchase this device just to play with it and provide feedback to the developers. In the meantime, why can’t someone just develop existing smart phone apps to do the same thing? Why can’t we just place our smart phones in a wearable lanyard with the phone's camera facing away from our bodies to accomplish the same things? Supersense and other similar apps could accomplish the same things if these apps are developed a little more. If you want this device, go out and purchase it. As for me, I’m not going to run out and purchase this device just because it’s the latest thing that technology developers think is going to be great. They are probably wrong.

I think there was a recently published article about robotic seeing eye dogs. Honestly, I think such a device might be more useful than this device. Again, I have never wanted a seeing eye dog. However, a robotic seeing Eye dog might be useful.

Just my thoughts,

Victor



On May 6, 2021, at 7:43 AM, chris judge mailto:chrisjudge1967@... wrote:





I’m definitely interested. New tech is always exciting. I wouldn’t pre-order, at least not yet, but if it can do what they claim I may add it to my tech tool kit.



Chris Judge

<https://www.freedomscientific.com/Training/Certification>



From: main@TechTalk.groups.io mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io On Behalf Of Nimer Jaber
Sent: May 6, 2021 11:37 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device



Hello Dave,



This device is mounted to the chest for precisely the reason you mention, the issue that people with glasses or with arm bands and such end up moving about, thus making detecting obstacles more difficult. The chest tends to be relatively proportional with the direction the body is moving in.



They also state that Strap will detect cracks in the sidewalk, and assist users in travelling in a straight line. Is it trailing? Sort of, but no. Guide dog users don't trail either, as you know, and use different clues while traveling to get to where they wish to go.



I do have reservations, I don't think that this device, in its first iteration, will be a great cane replacement, but I do think the developers are worth supporting, and I do hope lots of people buy it to provide the devs feedback, and to help this kind of a product move forward. One concern I have is regarding detection of, for instance, doorways where the door is closed, but this can be a challenge, to different degrees and in different ways, with both a cane and a dog. The cane requires trailing which may be a bit difficult if there is, for instance, lots of outdoor displays or furniture, not to mention a bit noisy, and the dog may or may not want to indicate a particular doorway, and may confuse windows with doors.



Each mobility device has its pros and cons, but I do think that a product like this is worth taking notice of, and at least trying and providing meaningful feedback for.



On Thu, May 6, 2021 at 7:23 AM Dave <dlh007@... mailto:dlh007@... > wrote:

Devices like this have been made before.  I recall one such device that
was built into a pair of glasses.  Think they were called Sonar
Glasses.  The user needed to move their Head side to side back and forth
as well as up and down, to have the Beam cover the front, as the person
was walking.


Get to a set of Stairs, and the device would Beep a series of notes like
going up or down a scale.

Now, as far as I am concerned, if someone wants to purchase this type of
devise, go ahead.  If you think it will help you, by all means, go for it.


I can think of one aspect of using a Cane that might be  a problem using
this Strap Device.


I would be curious to try something like this, but at first glance, I
can't see how it could do as good of job as my Cane. But, again, don't
let my thoughts frighten you away.

How would a person Trail, as they are walking along?


Let's say I have one of those situations where I am walking on a walking
area made of pavement, which is blended into the street. On the left,
there is a White line that helps Sighted folks from walking out into the
street.  And on the right is a Seam, or very narrow Crack where the
pavement meets the Cement of a Store Front parking area.


With a Cane I can feel the Texture differences between the pavement and
the Cement, or I might be able to detect the Seam or Crack.  Not sure
how those Sonar device would help in this situation.


And like with the Sonar Glasses of years past, does the operator need to
continuously twist their body from side to side to have the sonar beams
cover what's on the left and right?  That could be an interesting Boogie
Woogie move for someone to do while they are walking.


Personally, I have used a Cane for years, and I did have a guide Dog
for  several years.  I found the Dog was in general, better than using a
Cane, especially in deep Snow and packed Ice conditions.


But, the up keep and care of the Dog, and the reactions to the Dog
others would exhibit were down sides for me.  And when my Dog was
retired, I decided to return to using a Cane.


I have good cane skills so going back was not an issue, unless it Snowed
four or five inches over night, and I now had to wait for others to walk
on the walk ways to make a path I could follow with a Cane.


However, if anyone has this device, or had something like it in the
past, I would be curious to hear of your experiences with it.



Grumpy Dave











 

Virus-free. www.avg.com


Screen reader survey FW: [PhonesForTheBlind] latest web aim survey is available

John Holcomb II
 

 

 

From: PhonesForTheBlind@groups.io <PhonesForTheBlind@groups.io> On Behalf Of Dennis L
Sent: Friday, May 07, 2021 5:31 PM
To: PhonesForTheBlind@groups.io
Subject: [PhonesForTheBlind] latest web aim survey is available

 

This is the latest web aim survey.

https://webaim.org/projects/screenreadersurvey9/


Re: Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

John Holcomb II
 

Kurzweil phone?

What is that.

John

 

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Pamela Dominguez
Sent: Friday, May 07, 2021 3:35 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

 

I tried Orcam, and had it for two weeks and couldn’t get it to do much.  Since I didn’t want to get stuck with something I couldn’t use, I told the guy to take it back.  He tried to convince me to keep it and keep on trying, but like I said, I was afraid I would get stuck paying for something that didn’t work.  I remember I was able to do one thing with it: read a piece of mail better than my Kurzweil phone.  But that’s a lot of money to only do that.  Pam.

 

Sent: Friday, May 07, 2021 1:56 AM

Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

 

Orcam sounds incredible in theory, but because it requires you to stop to take pictures or use the auto mode which continuously takes pictures, I would say that it isn’t great for blind users who are on the move, and certainly won’t provide distance measurements, or tell you the direction of lines or arrows on a sign. If you want orcam, or the envision glasses for that matter, do yourself a favor and buy a head-mount, or even a chest mount, and open up the envision app, supersense, or any of the other apps that do the same thing, and you'll get most, if not all of what Orcam gives you. That is my view on Orcam.

 

On Thu, May 6, 2021, 22:42 Victor <victorelawrence@...> wrote:

From  my  research ,  the  best  all-around  mobility  device  seems  to  be  the  Orcam  device.   It  detects  objects, reads print, recognizes faces and more.  It probably doesn't replace the cane, but this Strap device hasn't been around long enough to prove itself.  Orcam has been on the market for a few years and I've read good things about it.

 

If I were to spend money on an advanced mobility device, and if the payments were affordable, Orcam is probably what I'd buy.

 

Victor



On May 6, 2021, at 5:09 PM, James Bentley <bentleyj1952@...> wrote:



The experimental Japanese robotic guide dog also got put down.  It couldn’t handle stairs.

 

James B 

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gerald Levy via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, May 6, 2021 5:30 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

 

 

Well, the NYPD's robotic dog didn't work out and had to be put down.  So don't count on a robotic guide dog any time soon.

 

Gerald

 

 

On 5/6/2021 5:39 PM, Pamela Dominguez wrote:

The only kind of guide dog I would ever have would be a robotic one.  Pam.

-----Original Message----- From: Carolyn Arnold
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2021 5:09 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

Probably there would be a little less maintenance with robotic guide dog.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io [mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io] On Behalf Of Pamela Dominguez
Sent: Thursday, May 6, 2021 2:57 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

I guess that would be good for all the people who have smart phones.  But it still wouldn’t be good for the rest of us.  Pam.

From: Victor mailto:victorelawrence@...
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2021 11:34 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io mailto:main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

If I were wealthy, I might purchase this device just to play with it and provide feedback to the developers. In the meantime, why can’t someone just develop existing smart phone apps to do the same thing? Why can’t we just place our smart phones in a wearable lanyard with the phone's camera facing away from our bodies to accomplish the same things? Supersense and other similar apps could accomplish the same things if these apps are developed a little more. If you want this device, go out and purchase it. As for me, I’m not going to run out and purchase this device just because it’s the latest thing that technology developers think is going to be great. They are probably wrong.

I think there was a recently published article about robotic seeing eye dogs. Honestly, I think such a device might be more useful than this device. Again, I have never wanted a seeing eye dog. However, a robotic seeing Eye dog might be useful.

Just my thoughts,

Victor



On May 6, 2021, at 7:43 AM, chris judge mailto:chrisjudge1967@... wrote:





I’m definitely interested. New tech is always exciting. I wouldn’t pre-order, at least not yet, but if it can do what they claim I may add it to my tech tool kit.



Chris Judge

<https://www.freedomscientific.com/Training/Certification>



From: main@TechTalk.groups.io mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io On Behalf Of Nimer Jaber
Sent: May 6, 2021 11:37 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device



Hello Dave,



This device is mounted to the chest for precisely the reason you mention, the issue that people with glasses or with arm bands and such end up moving about, thus making detecting obstacles more difficult. The chest tends to be relatively proportional with the direction the body is moving in.



They also state that Strap will detect cracks in the sidewalk, and assist users in travelling in a straight line. Is it trailing? Sort of, but no. Guide dog users don't trail either, as you know, and use different clues while traveling to get to where they wish to go.



I do have reservations, I don't think that this device, in its first iteration, will be a great cane replacement, but I do think the developers are worth supporting, and I do hope lots of people buy it to provide the devs feedback, and to help this kind of a product move forward. One concern I have is regarding detection of, for instance, doorways where the door is closed, but this can be a challenge, to different degrees and in different ways, with both a cane and a dog. The cane requires trailing which may be a bit difficult if there is, for instance, lots of outdoor displays or furniture, not to mention a bit noisy, and the dog may or may not want to indicate a particular doorway, and may confuse windows with doors.



Each mobility device has its pros and cons, but I do think that a product like this is worth taking notice of, and at least trying and providing meaningful feedback for.



On Thu, May 6, 2021 at 7:23 AM Dave <dlh007@... mailto:dlh007@... > wrote:

Devices like this have been made before.  I recall one such device that
was built into a pair of glasses.  Think they were called Sonar
Glasses.  The user needed to move their Head side to side back and forth
as well as up and down, to have the Beam cover the front, as the person
was walking.


Get to a set of Stairs, and the device would Beep a series of notes like
going up or down a scale.

Now, as far as I am concerned, if someone wants to purchase this type of
devise, go ahead.  If you think it will help you, by all means, go for it.


I can think of one aspect of using a Cane that might be  a problem using
this Strap Device.


I would be curious to try something like this, but at first glance, I
can't see how it could do as good of job as my Cane. But, again, don't
let my thoughts frighten you away.

How would a person Trail, as they are walking along?


Let's say I have one of those situations where I am walking on a walking
area made of pavement, which is blended into the street. On the left,
there is a White line that helps Sighted folks from walking out into the
street.  And on the right is a Seam, or very narrow Crack where the
pavement meets the Cement of a Store Front parking area.


With a Cane I can feel the Texture differences between the pavement and
the Cement, or I might be able to detect the Seam or Crack.  Not sure
how those Sonar device would help in this situation.


And like with the Sonar Glasses of years past, does the operator need to
continuously twist their body from side to side to have the sonar beams
cover what's on the left and right?  That could be an interesting Boogie
Woogie move for someone to do while they are walking.


Personally, I have used a Cane for years, and I did have a guide Dog
for  several years.  I found the Dog was in general, better than using a
Cane, especially in deep Snow and packed Ice conditions.


But, the up keep and care of the Dog, and the reactions to the Dog
others would exhibit were down sides for me.  And when my Dog was
retired, I decided to return to using a Cane.


I have good cane skills so going back was not an issue, unless it Snowed
four or five inches over night, and I now had to wait for others to walk
on the walk ways to make a path I could follow with a Cane.


However, if anyone has this device, or had something like it in the
past, I would be curious to hear of your experiences with it.



Grumpy Dave












 

Virus-free. www.avg.com


Re: Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

Pamela Dominguez
 

The guy I bought the Orkam from said he would give specialized training, but he didn’t give much.  He said I could call him whenever I had a problem, but I still didn’t end up being able to use it much.  But I didn’t spend time badgering him on the phone all the time, either.  He brought it to me, showed me how to set it up, and a little bit about how to use it.  He also sent me some lessons to read on my computer.  I did call him several times to ask him what to do about a problem I had.  Pam.
 

Sent: Friday, May 07, 2021 9:14 AM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device
 

I’ve been racking my old brain to come up with examples of products in the past that came with specialised training. Sorry but I’m drawing a blank.

 

Chris Judge

JAWS Certified, 2021

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gerald Levy via groups.io
Sent: May 7, 2021 8:59 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

 

 

I make that assumption on the basis of someone who is hearing impaired.  Trying to accurately detect traffic flow patterens while wearing hearing aids is difficult enough without the added distraction of vibrations from an electronic mobility aid. Quite frankly, the company is taking a slapdash, lackadaisical attitude with regard to training by expecting purchasers to become adept in the use of the Strap simply by listening to a tutorial.  Do you know anyone who has ever become a successful white cane user simply by listening to a tutorial without any comprehensive personalized trainig from an O&M specialist?

 

Gerald

 

 

 

On 5/7/2021 7:32 AM, Gene wrote:

The podcast I linked to previously includes one of the developers explaining about the tutorial that comes with the device.  it demonstrates, by discussing and causing the device to make them, different haptic occurrences and what they mean.  the person says that after going through the short tutorial, the person learning the device might want to go outdoors using his cane and the device so he/she can learn how to use it in that way. 

 

In another message, you said the haptic vibrations might distract from traffic sounds.  I see no reason to believe that.  On what basis do you make such a statement?  Why should vibrations and other sensations on your chest and other areas of your body interfere with your concentration on hearing.  And if they do at first, anyone with any sense won’t go into traffic until they have learned to experience both without degredation.

 

I remain skeptical that this device will be widely used because of cost and because I am yet to be persuaded that it will give me the kind of detailed information I want such as the height of a curve or of steps in a flight of stairs..  But if independent knowledgeable and credible reviewers say this sort of information is given well, while I don’t think skilled cane or dog users will flock to purchase a 750 dollar device when what they have works well, at the same time, I don’t think learning to use the device and integrating it with cane or dog use will be a problem.  I just doubt very much that it is worth the money.

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

From: Victor

Sent: Friday, May 07, 2021 6:07 AM

Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

 

That’s a good question!

 

Victor



On May 7, 2021, at 3:56 AM, Gerald Levy via groups.io mailto:bwaylimited@... wrote:



 

What kind of personalized training is offered to purchasers of the Strap?  To sell this device without providing one on one training so that the purchaser is taught to wear and use it properly would be highly irresponsible. For such a mobility aid,printed instructions are insufficient. 

 

Gerald

 

 

On 5/7/2021 1:59 AM, Nimer Jaber wrote:

A couple of other things:

 

Orcam does not do obstacle detection, and it requires that you train it to detect specific faces.

 

On Thu, May 6, 2021, 22:42 Victor <victorelawrence@...> wrote:

From  my  research ,  the  best  all-around  mobility  device  seems  to  be  the  Orcam  device.   It  detects  objects, reads print, recognizes faces and more.  It probably doesn't replace the cane, but this Strap device hasn't been around long enough to prove itself.  Orcam has been on the market for a few years and I've read good things about it.

 

If I were to spend money on an advanced mobility device, and if the payments were affordable, Orcam is probably what I'd buy.

 

Victor



On May 6, 2021, at 5:09 PM, James Bentley <bentleyj1952@...> wrote:



The experimental Japanese robotic guide dog also got put down.  It couldn’t handle stairs.

 

James B 

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gerald Levy via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, May 6, 2021 5:30 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

 

 

Well, the NYPD's robotic dog didn't work out and had to be put down.  So don't count on a robotic guide dog any time soon.

 

Gerald

 

 

On 5/6/2021 5:39 PM, Pamela Dominguez wrote:

The only kind of guide dog I would ever have would be a robotic one.  Pam.

-----Original Message----- From: Carolyn Arnold
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2021 5:09 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

Probably there would be a little less maintenance with robotic guide dog.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io [mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io] On Behalf Of Pamela Dominguez
Sent: Thursday, May 6, 2021 2:57 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

I guess that would be good for all the people who have smart phones.  But it still wouldn’t be good for the rest of us.  Pam.

From: Victor mailto:victorelawrence@...
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2021 11:34 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io mailto:main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

If I were wealthy, I might purchase this device just to play with it and provide feedback to the developers. In the meantime, why can’t someone just develop existing smart phone apps to do the same thing? Why can’t we just place our smart phones in a wearable lanyard with the phone's camera facing away from our bodies to accomplish the same things? Supersense and other similar apps could accomplish the same things if these apps are developed a little more. If you want this device, go out and purchase it. As for me, I’m not going to run out and purchase this device just because it’s the latest thing that technology developers think is going to be great. They are probably wrong.

I think there was a recently published article about robotic seeing eye dogs. Honestly, I think such a device might be more useful than this device. Again, I have never wanted a seeing eye dog. However, a robotic seeing Eye dog might be useful.

Just my thoughts,

Victor



On May 6, 2021, at 7:43 AM, chris judge mailto:chrisjudge1967@... wrote:





I’m definitely interested. New tech is always exciting. I wouldn’t pre-order, at least not yet, but if it can do what they claim I may add it to my tech tool kit.



Chris Judge

<https://www.freedomscientific.com/Training/Certification>



From: main@TechTalk.groups.io mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io On Behalf Of Nimer Jaber
Sent: May 6, 2021 11:37 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device



Hello Dave,



This device is mounted to the chest for precisely the reason you mention, the issue that people with glasses or with arm bands and such end up moving about, thus making detecting obstacles more difficult. The chest tends to be relatively proportional with the direction the body is moving in.



They also state that Strap will detect cracks in the sidewalk, and assist users in travelling in a straight line. Is it trailing? Sort of, but no. Guide dog users don't trail either, as you know, and use different clues while traveling to get to where they wish to go.



I do have reservations, I don't think that this device, in its first iteration, will be a great cane replacement, but I do think the developers are worth supporting, and I do hope lots of people buy it to provide the devs feedback, and to help this kind of a product move forward. One concern I have is regarding detection of, for instance, doorways where the door is closed, but this can be a challenge, to different degrees and in different ways, with both a cane and a dog. The cane requires trailing which may be a bit difficult if there is, for instance, lots of outdoor displays or furniture, not to mention a bit noisy, and the dog may or may not want to indicate a particular doorway, and may confuse windows with doors.



Each mobility device has its pros and cons, but I do think that a product like this is worth taking notice of, and at least trying and providing meaningful feedback for.



On Thu, May 6, 2021 at 7:23 AM Dave <dlh007@... mailto:dlh007@... > wrote:

Devices like this have been made before.  I recall one such device that
was built into a pair of glasses.  Think they were called Sonar
Glasses.  The user needed to move their Head side to side back and forth
as well as up and down, to have the Beam cover the front, as the person
was walking.


Get to a set of Stairs, and the device would Beep a series of notes like
going up or down a scale.

Now, as far as I am concerned, if someone wants to purchase this type of
devise, go ahead.  If you think it will help you, by all means, go for it.


I can think of one aspect of using a Cane that might be  a problem using
this Strap Device.


I would be curious to try something like this, but at first glance, I
can't see how it could do as good of job as my Cane. But, again, don't
let my thoughts frighten you away.

How would a person Trail, as they are walking along?


Let's say I have one of those situations where I am walking on a walking
area made of pavement, which is blended into the street. On the left,
there is a White line that helps Sighted folks from walking out into the
street.  And on the right is a Seam, or very narrow Crack where the
pavement meets the Cement of a Store Front parking area.


With a Cane I can feel the Texture differences between the pavement and
the Cement, or I might be able to detect the Seam or Crack.  Not sure
how those Sonar device would help in this situation.


And like with the Sonar Glasses of years past, does the operator need to
continuously twist their body from side to side to have the sonar beams
cover what's on the left and right?  That could be an interesting Boogie
Woogie move for someone to do while they are walking.


Personally, I have used a Cane for years, and I did have a guide Dog
for  several years.  I found the Dog was in general, better than using a
Cane, especially in deep Snow and packed Ice conditions.


But, the up keep and care of the Dog, and the reactions to the Dog
others would exhibit were down sides for me.  And when my Dog was
retired, I decided to return to using a Cane.


I have good cane skills so going back was not an issue, unless it Snowed
four or five inches over night, and I now had to wait for others to walk
on the walk ways to make a path I could follow with a Cane.


However, if anyone has this device, or had something like it in the
past, I would be curious to hear of your experiences with it.



Grumpy Dave













Virus-free. www.avg.com


Re: Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

Pamela Dominguez
 

I tried Orcam, and had it for two weeks and couldn’t get it to do much.  Since I didn’t want to get stuck with something I couldn’t use, I told the guy to take it back.  He tried to convince me to keep it and keep on trying, but like I said, I was afraid I would get stuck paying for something that didn’t work.  I remember I was able to do one thing with it: read a piece of mail better than my Kurzweil phone.  But that’s a lot of money to only do that.  Pam.
 

Sent: Friday, May 07, 2021 1:56 AM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device
 
Orcam sounds incredible in theory, but because it requires you to stop to take pictures or use the auto mode which continuously takes pictures, I would say that it isn’t great for blind users who are on the move, and certainly won’t provide distance measurements, or tell you the direction of lines or arrows on a sign. If you want orcam, or the envision glasses for that matter, do yourself a favor and buy a head-mount, or even a chest mount, and open up the envision app, supersense, or any of the other apps that do the same thing, and you'll get most, if not all of what Orcam gives you. That is my view on Orcam.
 
On Thu, May 6, 2021, 22:42 Victor <victorelawrence@...> wrote:
From  my  research ,  the  best  all-around  mobility  device  seems  to  be  the  Orcam  device.   It  detects  objects, reads print, recognizes faces and more.  It probably doesn't replace the cane, but this Strap device hasn't been around long enough to prove itself.  Orcam has been on the market for a few years and I've read good things about it.
 
If I were to spend money on an advanced mobility device, and if the payments were affordable, Orcam is probably what I'd buy.
 
Victor


On May 6, 2021, at 5:09 PM, James Bentley <bentleyj1952@...> wrote:



The experimental Japanese robotic guide dog also got put down.  It couldn’t handle stairs.

 

James B 

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gerald Levy via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, May 6, 2021 5:30 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

 

 

Well, the NYPD's robotic dog didn't work out and had to be put down.  So don't count on a robotic guide dog any time soon.

 

Gerald

 

 

On 5/6/2021 5:39 PM, Pamela Dominguez wrote:

The only kind of guide dog I would ever have would be a robotic one.  Pam.

-----Original Message----- From: Carolyn Arnold
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2021 5:09 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

Probably there would be a little less maintenance with robotic guide dog.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io [mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io] On Behalf Of Pamela Dominguez
Sent: Thursday, May 6, 2021 2:57 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

I guess that would be good for all the people who have smart phones.  But it still wouldn’t be good for the rest of us.  Pam.

From: Victor mailto:victorelawrence@...
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2021 11:34 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io mailto:main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

If I were wealthy, I might purchase this device just to play with it and provide feedback to the developers. In the meantime, why can’t someone just develop existing smart phone apps to do the same thing? Why can’t we just place our smart phones in a wearable lanyard with the phone's camera facing away from our bodies to accomplish the same things? Supersense and other similar apps could accomplish the same things if these apps are developed a little more. If you want this device, go out and purchase it. As for me, I’m not going to run out and purchase this device just because it’s the latest thing that technology developers think is going to be great. They are probably wrong.

I think there was a recently published article about robotic seeing eye dogs. Honestly, I think such a device might be more useful than this device. Again, I have never wanted a seeing eye dog. However, a robotic seeing Eye dog might be useful.

Just my thoughts,

Victor



On May 6, 2021, at 7:43 AM, chris judge mailto:chrisjudge1967@... wrote:





I’m definitely interested. New tech is always exciting. I wouldn’t pre-order, at least not yet, but if it can do what they claim I may add it to my tech tool kit.



Chris Judge

<https://www.freedomscientific.com/Training/Certification>



From: main@TechTalk.groups.io mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io On Behalf Of Nimer Jaber
Sent: May 6, 2021 11:37 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device



Hello Dave,



This device is mounted to the chest for precisely the reason you mention, the issue that people with glasses or with arm bands and such end up moving about, thus making detecting obstacles more difficult. The chest tends to be relatively proportional with the direction the body is moving in.



They also state that Strap will detect cracks in the sidewalk, and assist users in travelling in a straight line. Is it trailing? Sort of, but no. Guide dog users don't trail either, as you know, and use different clues while traveling to get to where they wish to go.



I do have reservations, I don't think that this device, in its first iteration, will be a great cane replacement, but I do think the developers are worth supporting, and I do hope lots of people buy it to provide the devs feedback, and to help this kind of a product move forward. One concern I have is regarding detection of, for instance, doorways where the door is closed, but this can be a challenge, to different degrees and in different ways, with both a cane and a dog. The cane requires trailing which may be a bit difficult if there is, for instance, lots of outdoor displays or furniture, not to mention a bit noisy, and the dog may or may not want to indicate a particular doorway, and may confuse windows with doors.



Each mobility device has its pros and cons, but I do think that a product like this is worth taking notice of, and at least trying and providing meaningful feedback for.



On Thu, May 6, 2021 at 7:23 AM Dave <dlh007@... mailto:dlh007@... > wrote:

Devices like this have been made before.  I recall one such device that
was built into a pair of glasses.  Think they were called Sonar
Glasses.  The user needed to move their Head side to side back and forth
as well as up and down, to have the Beam cover the front, as the person
was walking.


Get to a set of Stairs, and the device would Beep a series of notes like
going up or down a scale.

Now, as far as I am concerned, if someone wants to purchase this type of
devise, go ahead.  If you think it will help you, by all means, go for it.


I can think of one aspect of using a Cane that might be  a problem using
this Strap Device.


I would be curious to try something like this, but at first glance, I
can't see how it could do as good of job as my Cane. But, again, don't
let my thoughts frighten you away.

How would a person Trail, as they are walking along?


Let's say I have one of those situations where I am walking on a walking
area made of pavement, which is blended into the street. On the left,
there is a White line that helps Sighted folks from walking out into the
street.  And on the right is a Seam, or very narrow Crack where the
pavement meets the Cement of a Store Front parking area.


With a Cane I can feel the Texture differences between the pavement and
the Cement, or I might be able to detect the Seam or Crack.  Not sure
how those Sonar device would help in this situation.


And like with the Sonar Glasses of years past, does the operator need to
continuously twist their body from side to side to have the sonar beams
cover what's on the left and right?  That could be an interesting Boogie
Woogie move for someone to do while they are walking.


Personally, I have used a Cane for years, and I did have a guide Dog
for  several years.  I found the Dog was in general, better than using a
Cane, especially in deep Snow and packed Ice conditions.


But, the up keep and care of the Dog, and the reactions to the Dog
others would exhibit were down sides for me.  And when my Dog was
retired, I decided to return to using a Cane.


I have good cane skills so going back was not an issue, unless it Snowed
four or five inches over night, and I now had to wait for others to walk
on the walk ways to make a path I could follow with a Cane.


However, if anyone has this device, or had something like it in the
past, I would be curious to hear of your experiences with it.



Grumpy Dave














Virus-free. www.avg.com


Re: Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

Carolyn Arnold
 

Right, John, really exasperating.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io [mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io] On Behalf Of John Holcomb II
Sent: Friday, May 7, 2021 2:45 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

And I can't tell what is closer and what is further away which j makes it even more impossible.
John


-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Carolyn Arnold
Sent: Friday, May 07, 2021 12:46 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

Exactly, Gerald. Unless someone has diminished hearing, they would have no idea of the overwhelming sound of traffic. To me, it sounds like it is all around me, under me, over me, everywhere, making any navigation in traffic a study of intense and unpleasant concentration.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io [mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gerald Levy via groups.io
Sent: Friday, May 7, 2021 7:59 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device




I make that assumption on the basis of someone who is hearing impaired. Trying to accurately detect traffic flow patterens while wearing hearing aids is difficult enough without the added distraction of vibrations from an electronic mobility aid. Quite frankly, the company is taking a slapdash, lackadaisical attitude with regard to training by expecting purchasers to become adept in the use of the Strap simply by listening to a tutorial. Do you know anyone who has ever become a successful white cane user simply by listening to a tutorial without any comprehensive personalized trainig from an O&M specialist?




Gerald











On 5/7/2021 7:32 AM, Gene wrote:


The podcast I linked to previously includes one of the developers explaining about the tutorial that comes with the device. it demonstrates, by discussing and causing the device to make them, different haptic occurrences and what they mean. the person says that after going through the short tutorial, the person learning the device might want to go outdoors using his cane and the device so he/she can learn how to use it in that way.

In another message, you said the haptic vibrations might distract from traffic sounds. I see no reason to believe that. On what basis do you make such a statement? Why should vibrations and other sensations on your chest and other areas of your body interfere with your concentration on hearing. And if they do at first, anyone with any sense won’t go into traffic until they have learned to experience both without degredation.

I remain skeptical that this device will be widely used because of cost and because I am yet to be persuaded that it will give me the kind of detailed information I want such as the height of a curve or of steps in a flight of stairs.. But if independent knowledgeable and credible reviewers say this sort of information is given well, while I don’t think skilled cane or dog users will flock to purchase a 750 dollar device when what they have works well, at the same time, I don’t think learning to use the device and integrating it with cane or dog use will be a problem. I just doubt very much that it is worth the money.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Victor <mailto:victorelawrence@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, May 07, 2021 6:07 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io <mailto:main@techtalk.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

That’s a good question!

Victor




On May 7, 2021, at 3:56 AM, Gerald Levy via groups.io <bwaylimited=verizon.net@groups.io> <mailto:bwaylimited=verizon.net@groups.io> wrote:







What kind of personalized training is offered to purchasers of the Strap? To sell this device without providing one on one training so that the purchaser is taught to wear and use it properly would be highly irresponsible. For such a mobility aid,printed instructions are insufficient.





Gerald








On 5/7/2021 1:59 AM, Nimer Jaber wrote:


A couple of other things:

Orcam does not do obstacle detection, and it requires that you train it to detect specific faces.

On Thu, May 6, 2021, 22:42 Victor <victorelawrence@gmail.com <mailto:victorelawrence@gmail.com> > wrote:


From my research , the best all-around mobility device seems to be the Orcam device. It detects objects, reads print, recognizes faces and more. It probably doesn't replace the cane, but this Strap device hasn't been around long enough to prove itself. Orcam has been on the market for a few years and I've read good things about it.

If I were to spend money on an advanced mobility device, and if the payments were affordable, Orcam is probably what I'd buy.

Victor




On May 6, 2021, at 5:09 PM, James Bentley <bentleyj1952@gmail.com <mailto:bentleyj1952@gmail.com> > wrote:





The experimental Japanese robotic guide dog also got put down. It couldn’t handle stairs.



James B



From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io> <main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io> > On Behalf Of Gerald Levy via groups.io <http://groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, May 6, 2021 5:30 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device





Well, the NYPD's robotic dog didn't work out and had to be put down. So don't count on a robotic guide dog any time soon.



Gerald





On 5/6/2021 5:39 PM, Pamela Dominguez wrote:

The only kind of guide dog I would ever have would be a robotic one. Pam.

-----Original Message----- From: Carolyn Arnold
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2021 5:09 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

Probably there would be a little less maintenance with robotic guide dog.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io> [mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io] On Behalf Of Pamela Dominguez
Sent: Thursday, May 6, 2021 2:57 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

I guess that would be good for all the people who have smart phones. But it still wouldn’t be good for the rest of us. Pam.

From: Victor mailto:victorelawrence@gmail.com
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2021 11:34 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io <mailto:main@techtalk.groups.io> mailto:main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

If I were wealthy, I might purchase this device just to play with it and provide feedback to the developers. In the meantime, why can’t someone just develop existing smart phone apps to do the same thing? Why can’t we just place our smart phones in a wearable lanyard with the phone's camera facing away from our bodies to accomplish the same things? Supersense and other similar apps could accomplish the same things if these apps are developed a little more. If you want this device, go out and purchase it. As for me, I’m not going to run out and purchase this device just because it’s the latest thing that technology developers think is going to be great. They are probably wrong.

I think there was a recently published article about robotic seeing eye dogs. Honestly, I think such a device might be more useful than this device. Again, I have never wanted a seeing eye dog. However, a robotic seeing Eye dog might be useful.

Just my thoughts,

Victor



On May 6, 2021, at 7:43 AM, chris judge mailto:chrisjudge1967@gmail.com wrote:





I’m definitely interested. New tech is always exciting. I wouldn’t pre-order, at least not yet, but if it can do what they claim I may add it to my tech tool kit.



Chris Judge

<https://www.freedomscientific.com/Training/Certification> <https://www.freedomscientific.com/Training/Certification>



From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io> mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io On Behalf Of Nimer Jaber
Sent: May 6, 2021 11:37 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io <mailto:main@techtalk.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device



Hello Dave,



This device is mounted to the chest for precisely the reason you mention, the issue that people with glasses or with arm bands and such end up moving about, thus making detecting obstacles more difficult. The chest tends to be relatively proportional with the direction the body is moving in.



They also state that Strap will detect cracks in the sidewalk, and assist users in travelling in a straight line. Is it trailing? Sort of, but no. Guide dog users don't trail either, as you know, and use different clues while traveling to get to where they wish to go.



I do have reservations, I don't think that this device, in its first iteration, will be a great cane replacement, but I do think the developers are worth supporting, and I do hope lots of people buy it to provide the devs feedback, and to help this kind of a product move forward. One concern I have is regarding detection of, for instance, doorways where the door is closed, but this can be a challenge, to different degrees and in different ways, with both a cane and a dog. The cane requires trailing which may be a bit difficult if there is, for instance, lots of outdoor displays or furniture, not to mention a bit noisy, and the dog may or may not want to indicate a particular doorway, and may confuse windows with doors.



Each mobility device has its pros and cons, but I do think that a product like this is worth taking notice of, and at least trying and providing meaningful feedback for.



On Thu, May 6, 2021 at 7:23 AM Dave <dlh007@centurylink.net <mailto:dlh007@centurylink.net> mailto:dlh007@centurylink.net > wrote:

Devices like this have been made before. I recall one such device that
was built into a pair of glasses. Think they were called Sonar
Glasses. The user needed to move their Head side to side back and forth
as well as up and down, to have the Beam cover the front, as the person
was walking.


Get to a set of Stairs, and the device would Beep a series of notes like
going up or down a scale.

Now, as far as I am concerned, if someone wants to purchase this type of
devise, go ahead. If you think it will help you, by all means, go for it.


I can think of one aspect of using a Cane that might be a problem using
this Strap Device.


I would be curious to try something like this, but at first glance, I
can't see how it could do as good of job as my Cane. But, again, don't
let my thoughts frighten you away.

How would a person Trail, as they are walking along?


Let's say I have one of those situations where I am walking on a walking
area made of pavement, which is blended into the street. On the left,
there is a White line that helps Sighted folks from walking out into the
street. And on the right is a Seam, or very narrow Crack where the
pavement meets the Cement of a Store Front parking area.


With a Cane I can feel the Texture differences between the pavement and
the Cement, or I might be able to detect the Seam or Crack. Not sure
how those Sonar device would help in this situation.


And like with the Sonar Glasses of years past, does the operator need to
continuously twist their body from side to side to have the sonar beams
cover what's on the left and right? That could be an interesting Boogie
Woogie move for someone to do while they are walking.


Personally, I have used a Cane for years, and I did have a guide Dog
for several years. I found the Dog was in general, better than using a
Cane, especially in deep Snow and packed Ice conditions.


But, the up keep and care of the Dog, and the reactions to the Dog
others would exhibit were down sides for me. And when my Dog was
retired, I decided to return to using a Cane.


I have good cane skills so going back was not an issue, unless it Snowed
four or five inches over night, and I now had to wait for others to walk
on the walk ways to make a path I could follow with a Cane.


However, if anyone has this device, or had something like it in the
past, I would be curious to hear of your experiences with it.



Grumpy Dave


Re: Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

John Holcomb II
 

And I can't tell what is closer and what is further away which j makes it even more impossible.
John

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Carolyn Arnold
Sent: Friday, May 07, 2021 12:46 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

Exactly, Gerald. Unless someone has diminished hearing, they would have no idea of the overwhelming sound of traffic. To me, it sounds like it is all around me, under me, over me, everywhere, making any navigation in traffic a study of intense and unpleasant concentration.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io [mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gerald Levy via groups.io
Sent: Friday, May 7, 2021 7:59 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device




I make that assumption on the basis of someone who is hearing impaired. Trying to accurately detect traffic flow patterens while wearing hearing aids is difficult enough without the added distraction of vibrations from an electronic mobility aid. Quite frankly, the company is taking a slapdash, lackadaisical attitude with regard to training by expecting purchasers to become adept in the use of the Strap simply by listening to a tutorial. Do you know anyone who has ever become a successful white cane user simply by listening to a tutorial without any comprehensive personalized trainig from an O&M specialist?




Gerald











On 5/7/2021 7:32 AM, Gene wrote:


The podcast I linked to previously includes one of the developers explaining about the tutorial that comes with the device. it demonstrates, by discussing and causing the device to make them, different haptic occurrences and what they mean. the person says that after going through the short tutorial, the person learning the device might want to go outdoors using his cane and the device so he/she can learn how to use it in that way.

In another message, you said the haptic vibrations might distract from traffic sounds. I see no reason to believe that. On what basis do you make such a statement? Why should vibrations and other sensations on your chest and other areas of your body interfere with your concentration on hearing. And if they do at first, anyone with any sense won’t go into traffic until they have learned to experience both without degredation.

I remain skeptical that this device will be widely used because of cost and because I am yet to be persuaded that it will give me the kind of detailed information I want such as the height of a curve or of steps in a flight of stairs.. But if independent knowledgeable and credible reviewers say this sort of information is given well, while I don’t think skilled cane or dog users will flock to purchase a 750 dollar device when what they have works well, at the same time, I don’t think learning to use the device and integrating it with cane or dog use will be a problem. I just doubt very much that it is worth the money.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Victor <mailto:victorelawrence@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, May 07, 2021 6:07 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io <mailto:main@techtalk.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

That’s a good question!

Victor




On May 7, 2021, at 3:56 AM, Gerald Levy via groups.io <bwaylimited=verizon.net@groups.io> <mailto:bwaylimited=verizon.net@groups.io> wrote:







What kind of personalized training is offered to purchasers of the Strap? To sell this device without providing one on one training so that the purchaser is taught to wear and use it properly would be highly irresponsible. For such a mobility aid,printed instructions are insufficient.





Gerald








On 5/7/2021 1:59 AM, Nimer Jaber wrote:


A couple of other things:

Orcam does not do obstacle detection, and it requires that you train it to detect specific faces.

On Thu, May 6, 2021, 22:42 Victor <victorelawrence@gmail.com <mailto:victorelawrence@gmail.com> > wrote:


From my research , the best all-around mobility device seems to be the Orcam device. It detects objects, reads print, recognizes faces and more. It probably doesn't replace the cane, but this Strap device hasn't been around long enough to prove itself. Orcam has been on the market for a few years and I've read good things about it.

If I were to spend money on an advanced mobility device, and if the payments were affordable, Orcam is probably what I'd buy.

Victor




On May 6, 2021, at 5:09 PM, James Bentley <bentleyj1952@gmail.com <mailto:bentleyj1952@gmail.com> > wrote:





The experimental Japanese robotic guide dog also got put down. It couldn’t handle stairs.



James B



From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io> <main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io> > On Behalf Of Gerald Levy via groups.io <http://groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, May 6, 2021 5:30 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device





Well, the NYPD's robotic dog didn't work out and had to be put down. So don't count on a robotic guide dog any time soon.



Gerald





On 5/6/2021 5:39 PM, Pamela Dominguez wrote:

The only kind of guide dog I would ever have would be a robotic one. Pam.

-----Original Message----- From: Carolyn Arnold
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2021 5:09 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

Probably there would be a little less maintenance with robotic guide dog.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io> [mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io] On Behalf Of Pamela Dominguez
Sent: Thursday, May 6, 2021 2:57 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

I guess that would be good for all the people who have smart phones. But it still wouldn’t be good for the rest of us. Pam.

From: Victor mailto:victorelawrence@gmail.com
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2021 11:34 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io <mailto:main@techtalk.groups.io> mailto:main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

If I were wealthy, I might purchase this device just to play with it and provide feedback to the developers. In the meantime, why can’t someone just develop existing smart phone apps to do the same thing? Why can’t we just place our smart phones in a wearable lanyard with the phone's camera facing away from our bodies to accomplish the same things? Supersense and other similar apps could accomplish the same things if these apps are developed a little more. If you want this device, go out and purchase it. As for me, I’m not going to run out and purchase this device just because it’s the latest thing that technology developers think is going to be great. They are probably wrong.

I think there was a recently published article about robotic seeing eye dogs. Honestly, I think such a device might be more useful than this device. Again, I have never wanted a seeing eye dog. However, a robotic seeing Eye dog might be useful.

Just my thoughts,

Victor



On May 6, 2021, at 7:43 AM, chris judge mailto:chrisjudge1967@gmail.com wrote:





I’m definitely interested. New tech is always exciting. I wouldn’t pre-order, at least not yet, but if it can do what they claim I may add it to my tech tool kit.



Chris Judge

<https://www.freedomscientific.com/Training/Certification> <https://www.freedomscientific.com/Training/Certification>



From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io> mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io On Behalf Of Nimer Jaber
Sent: May 6, 2021 11:37 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io <mailto:main@techtalk.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device



Hello Dave,



This device is mounted to the chest for precisely the reason you mention, the issue that people with glasses or with arm bands and such end up moving about, thus making detecting obstacles more difficult. The chest tends to be relatively proportional with the direction the body is moving in.



They also state that Strap will detect cracks in the sidewalk, and assist users in travelling in a straight line. Is it trailing? Sort of, but no. Guide dog users don't trail either, as you know, and use different clues while traveling to get to where they wish to go.



I do have reservations, I don't think that this device, in its first iteration, will be a great cane replacement, but I do think the developers are worth supporting, and I do hope lots of people buy it to provide the devs feedback, and to help this kind of a product move forward. One concern I have is regarding detection of, for instance, doorways where the door is closed, but this can be a challenge, to different degrees and in different ways, with both a cane and a dog. The cane requires trailing which may be a bit difficult if there is, for instance, lots of outdoor displays or furniture, not to mention a bit noisy, and the dog may or may not want to indicate a particular doorway, and may confuse windows with doors.



Each mobility device has its pros and cons, but I do think that a product like this is worth taking notice of, and at least trying and providing meaningful feedback for.



On Thu, May 6, 2021 at 7:23 AM Dave <dlh007@centurylink.net <mailto:dlh007@centurylink.net> mailto:dlh007@centurylink.net > wrote:

Devices like this have been made before. I recall one such device that
was built into a pair of glasses. Think they were called Sonar
Glasses. The user needed to move their Head side to side back and forth
as well as up and down, to have the Beam cover the front, as the person
was walking.


Get to a set of Stairs, and the device would Beep a series of notes like
going up or down a scale.

Now, as far as I am concerned, if someone wants to purchase this type of
devise, go ahead. If you think it will help you, by all means, go for it.


I can think of one aspect of using a Cane that might be a problem using
this Strap Device.


I would be curious to try something like this, but at first glance, I
can't see how it could do as good of job as my Cane. But, again, don't
let my thoughts frighten you away.

How would a person Trail, as they are walking along?


Let's say I have one of those situations where I am walking on a walking
area made of pavement, which is blended into the street. On the left,
there is a White line that helps Sighted folks from walking out into the
street. And on the right is a Seam, or very narrow Crack where the
pavement meets the Cement of a Store Front parking area.


With a Cane I can feel the Texture differences between the pavement and
the Cement, or I might be able to detect the Seam or Crack. Not sure
how those Sonar device would help in this situation.


And like with the Sonar Glasses of years past, does the operator need to
continuously twist their body from side to side to have the sonar beams
cover what's on the left and right? That could be an interesting Boogie
Woogie move for someone to do while they are walking.


Personally, I have used a Cane for years, and I did have a guide Dog
for several years. I found the Dog was in general, better than using a
Cane, especially in deep Snow and packed Ice conditions.


But, the up keep and care of the Dog, and the reactions to the Dog
others would exhibit were down sides for me. And when my Dog was
retired, I decided to return to using a Cane.


I have good cane skills so going back was not an issue, unless it Snowed
four or five inches over night, and I now had to wait for others to walk
on the walk ways to make a path I could follow with a Cane.


However, if anyone has this device, or had something like it in the
past, I would be curious to hear of your experiences with it.



Grumpy Dave


Re: Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

Pamela Dominguez
 

I'm with you there! Pam.

-----Original Message-----
From: chris judge
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2021 6:39 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

Until I can train one of my kittycats I'll be doing the cane thing as well. I tried guide dogs in the past, not for me.

Chris Judge


-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Pamela Dominguez
Sent: May 6, 2021 6:40 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

The only kind of guide dog I would ever have would be a robotic one. Pam.

-----Original Message-----
From: Carolyn Arnold
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2021 5:09 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

Probably there would be a little less maintenance with robotic guide dog.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io [mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io] On Behalf Of Pamela Dominguez
Sent: Thursday, May 6, 2021 2:57 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

I guess that would be good for all the people who have smart phones. But it still wouldn’t be good for the rest of us. Pam.

From: Victor <mailto:victorelawrence@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2021 11:34 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io <mailto:main@techtalk.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

If I were wealthy, I might purchase this device just to play with it and provide feedback to the developers. In the meantime, why can’t someone just develop existing smart phone apps to do the same thing? Why can’t we just place our smart phones in a wearable lanyard with the phone's camera facing away from our bodies to accomplish the same things? Supersense and other similar apps could accomplish the same things if these apps are developed a little more. If you want this device, go out and purchase it. As for me, I’m not going to run out and purchase this device just because it’s the latest thing that technology developers think is going to be great. They are probably wrong.

I think there was a recently published article about robotic seeing eye dogs. Honestly, I think such a device might be more useful than this device.
Again, I have never wanted a seeing eye dog. However, a robotic seeing Eye dog might be useful.

Just my thoughts,

Victor



On May 6, 2021, at 7:43 AM, chris judge <chrisjudge1967@gmail.com> wrote:





I’m definitely interested. New tech is always exciting. I wouldn’t pre-order, at least not yet, but if it can do what they claim I may add it to my tech tool kit.



Chris Judge

<https://www.freedomscientific.com/Training/Certification>



From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Nimer Jaber
Sent: May 6, 2021 11:37 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device



Hello Dave,



This device is mounted to the chest for precisely the reason you mention,
the issue that people with glasses or with arm bands and such end up moving
about, thus making detecting obstacles more difficult. The chest tends to be
relatively proportional with the direction the body is moving in.



They also state that Strap will detect cracks in the sidewalk, and assist
users in travelling in a straight line. Is it trailing? Sort of, but no.
Guide dog users don't trail either, as you know, and use different clues
while traveling to get to where they wish to go.



I do have reservations, I don't think that this device, in its first
iteration, will be a great cane replacement, but I do think the developers
are worth supporting, and I do hope lots of people buy it to provide the
devs feedback, and to help this kind of a product move forward. One concern
I have is regarding detection of, for instance, doorways where the door is
closed, but this can be a challenge, to different degrees and in different
ways, with both a cane and a dog. The cane requires trailing which may be a
bit difficult if there is, for instance, lots of outdoor displays or
furniture, not to mention a bit noisy, and the dog may or may not want to
indicate a particular doorway, and may confuse windows with doors.



Each mobility device has its pros and cons, but I do think that a product
like this is worth taking notice of, and at least trying and providing
meaningful feedback for.



On Thu, May 6, 2021 at 7:23 AM Dave <dlh007@centurylink.net
<mailto:dlh007@centurylink.net> > wrote:

Devices like this have been made before. I recall one such device that
was built into a pair of glasses. Think they were called Sonar
Glasses. The user needed to move their Head side to side back and forth
as well as up and down, to have the Beam cover the front, as the person
was walking.


Get to a set of Stairs, and the device would Beep a series of notes like
going up or down a scale.

Now, as far as I am concerned, if someone wants to purchase this type of
devise, go ahead. If you think it will help you, by all means, go for it.


I can think of one aspect of using a Cane that might be a problem using
this Strap Device.


I would be curious to try something like this, but at first glance, I
can't see how it could do as good of job as my Cane. But, again, don't
let my thoughts frighten you away.

How would a person Trail, as they are walking along?


Let's say I have one of those situations where I am walking on a walking
area made of pavement, which is blended into the street. On the left,
there is a White line that helps Sighted folks from walking out into the
street. And on the right is a Seam, or very narrow Crack where the
pavement meets the Cement of a Store Front parking area.


With a Cane I can feel the Texture differences between the pavement and
the Cement, or I might be able to detect the Seam or Crack. Not sure
how those Sonar device would help in this situation.


And like with the Sonar Glasses of years past, does the operator need to
continuously twist their body from side to side to have the sonar beams
cover what's on the left and right? That could be an interesting Boogie
Woogie move for someone to do while they are walking.


Personally, I have used a Cane for years, and I did have a guide Dog
for several years. I found the Dog was in general, better than using a
Cane, especially in deep Snow and packed Ice conditions.


But, the up keep and care of the Dog, and the reactions to the Dog
others would exhibit were down sides for me. And when my Dog was
retired, I decided to return to using a Cane.


I have good cane skills so going back was not an issue, unless it Snowed
four or five inches over night, and I now had to wait for others to walk
on the walk ways to make a path I could follow with a Cane.


However, if anyone has this device, or had something like it in the
past, I would be curious to hear of your experiences with it.



Grumpy Dave














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Re: Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

Pamela Dominguez
 

That’s find; I’ll just go with my cane.  Pam.
 

Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2021 6:29 PM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device
 

 

Well, the NYPD's robotic dog didn't work out and had to be put down.  So don't count on a robotic guide dog any time soon.


Gerald



On 5/6/2021 5:39 PM, Pamela Dominguez wrote:
The only kind of guide dog I would ever have would be a robotic one.  Pam.

-----Original Message----- From: Carolyn Arnold
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2021 5:09 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

Probably there would be a little less maintenance with robotic guide dog.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io [mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io] On Behalf Of Pamela Dominguez
Sent: Thursday, May 6, 2021 2:57 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

I guess that would be good for all the people who have smart phones.  But it still wouldn’t be good for the rest of us.  Pam.

From: Victor mailto:victorelawrence@...
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2021 11:34 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io mailto:main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

If I were wealthy, I might purchase this device just to play with it and provide feedback to the developers. In the meantime, why can’t someone just develop existing smart phone apps to do the same thing? Why can’t we just place our smart phones in a wearable lanyard with the phone's camera facing away from our bodies to accomplish the same things? Supersense and other similar apps could accomplish the same things if these apps are developed a little more. If you want this device, go out and purchase it. As for me, I’m not going to run out and purchase this device just because it’s the latest thing that technology developers think is going to be great. They are probably wrong.

I think there was a recently published article about robotic seeing eye dogs. Honestly, I think such a device might be more useful than this device. Again, I have never wanted a seeing eye dog. However, a robotic seeing Eye dog might be useful.

Just my thoughts,

Victor



On May 6, 2021, at 7:43 AM, chris judge mailto:chrisjudge1967@... wrote:





I’m definitely interested. New tech is always exciting. I wouldn’t pre-order, at least not yet, but if it can do what they claim I may add it to my tech tool kit.



Chris Judge

<https://www.freedomscientific.com/Training/Certification>



From: main@TechTalk.groups.io mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io On Behalf Of Nimer Jaber
Sent: May 6, 2021 11:37 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device



Hello Dave,



This device is mounted to the chest for precisely the reason you mention, the issue that people with glasses or with arm bands and such end up moving about, thus making detecting obstacles more difficult. The chest tends to be relatively proportional with the direction the body is moving in.



They also state that Strap will detect cracks in the sidewalk, and assist users in travelling in a straight line. Is it trailing? Sort of, but no. Guide dog users don't trail either, as you know, and use different clues while traveling to get to where they wish to go.



I do have reservations, I don't think that this device, in its first iteration, will be a great cane replacement, but I do think the developers are worth supporting, and I do hope lots of people buy it to provide the devs feedback, and to help this kind of a product move forward. One concern I have is regarding detection of, for instance, doorways where the door is closed, but this can be a challenge, to different degrees and in different ways, with both a cane and a dog. The cane requires trailing which may be a bit difficult if there is, for instance, lots of outdoor displays or furniture, not to mention a bit noisy, and the dog may or may not want to indicate a particular doorway, and may confuse windows with doors.



Each mobility device has its pros and cons, but I do think that a product like this is worth taking notice of, and at least trying and providing meaningful feedback for.



On Thu, May 6, 2021 at 7:23 AM Dave <dlh007@... mailto:dlh007@... > wrote:

Devices like this have been made before.  I recall one such device that
was built into a pair of glasses.  Think they were called Sonar
Glasses.  The user needed to move their Head side to side back and forth
as well as up and down, to have the Beam cover the front, as the person
was walking.


Get to a set of Stairs, and the device would Beep a series of notes like
going up or down a scale.

Now, as far as I am concerned, if someone wants to purchase this type of
devise, go ahead.  If you think it will help you, by all means, go for it.


I can think of one aspect of using a Cane that might be  a problem using
this Strap Device.


I would be curious to try something like this, but at first glance, I
can't see how it could do as good of job as my Cane. But, again, don't
let my thoughts frighten you away.

How would a person Trail, as they are walking along?


Let's say I have one of those situations where I am walking on a walking
area made of pavement, which is blended into the street. On the left,
there is a White line that helps Sighted folks from walking out into the
street.  And on the right is a Seam, or very narrow Crack where the
pavement meets the Cement of a Store Front parking area.


With a Cane I can feel the Texture differences between the pavement and
the Cement, or I might be able to detect the Seam or Crack.  Not sure
how those Sonar device would help in this situation.


And like with the Sonar Glasses of years past, does the operator need to
continuously twist their body from side to side to have the sonar beams
cover what's on the left and right?  That could be an interesting Boogie
Woogie move for someone to do while they are walking.


Personally, I have used a Cane for years, and I did have a guide Dog
for  several years.  I found the Dog was in general, better than using a
Cane, especially in deep Snow and packed Ice conditions.


But, the up keep and care of the Dog, and the reactions to the Dog
others would exhibit were down sides for me.  And when my Dog was
retired, I decided to return to using a Cane.


I have good cane skills so going back was not an issue, unless it Snowed
four or five inches over night, and I now had to wait for others to walk
on the walk ways to make a path I could follow with a Cane.


However, if anyone has this device, or had something like it in the
past, I would be curious to hear of your experiences with it.



Grumpy Dave















Virus-free. www.avg.com


Re: Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

Gene
 

The advertising claims that the device can replace the cane.  The discussion of having both hands free is the logical consequence of not using a cane.  But the developers aren’t contradicting themselves.  And this has nothing to do with what I said.  I don’t assume the claim of replacing the cane is correct.  I remain to be convinced.
 
Gene

-----Original message-----
Sent: Friday, May 07, 2021 11:49 AM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device
 
But it did say, one could travel with both hands free. How can that happen with using a cane?

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io [mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Friday, May 7, 2021 10:20 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

You continue to make straw man arguments or incorrect comparisons.  The device either will or will not be able to replace the cane, something I doubt.  I don’t think it should be presented and advertised in that way.  I don’t think the instructional material should make that claim, if it does.  At most, perhaps it might say that you may find that it can replace the cane and I’m not sure it should make a statement like that.  Perhaps it should say that it can serve to provide valuable additional information when traveling using a cane.  But that has nothing to do with whether the instructional material teaches use of the device effectively.
 
Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Gerald Levy via groups.io <mailto:bwaylimited@...>
Sent: Friday, May 07, 2021 9:04 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device
 

 

Which may explain why none of gthem ever achieved commercial success. Keep in mind that the Strap is being promoted as an alternative to a white cane, not as an adjunct, so to market it to blind consumers as a stand-alone mobility aid and expect them to achieve safe mobility strictly by listening to a short tutorial is a recipe for certain failure.




Gerald







5/7/2021 9:14 AM, chris judge wrote:


I’ve been racking my old brain to come up with examples of products in the past that came with specialised training. Sorry but I’m drawing a blank.



Chris Judge

<https://www.freedomscientific.com/Training/Certification>



From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io>  mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io On Behalf Of Gerald Levy via groups.io
Sent: May 7, 2021 8:59 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device





I make that assumption on the basis of someone who is hearing impaired.  Trying to accurately detect traffic flow patterens while wearing hearing aids is difficult enough without the added distraction of vibrations from an electronic mobility aid. Quite frankly, the company is taking a slapdash, lackadaisical attitude with regard to training by expecting purchasers to become adept in the use of the Strap simply by listening to a tutorial.  Do you know anyone who has ever become a successful white cane user simply by listening to a tutorial without any comprehensive personalized trainig from an O&M specialist?



Gerald







On 5/7/2021 7:32 AM, Gene wrote:

The podcast I linked to previously includes one of the developers explaining about the tutorial that comes with the device.  it demonstrates, by discussing and causing the device to make them, different haptic occurrences and what they mean.  the person says that after going through the short tutorial, the person learning the device might want to go outdoors using his cane and the device so he/she can learn how to use it in that way.



In another message, you said the haptic vibrations might distract from traffic sounds.  I see no reason to believe that.  On what basis do you make such a statement?  Why should vibrations and other sensations on your chest and other areas of your body interfere with your concentration on hearing.  And if they do at first, anyone with any sense won’t go into traffic until they have learned to experience both without degredation.



I remain skeptical that this device will be widely used because of cost and because I am yet to be persuaded that it will give me the kind of detailed information I want such as the height of a curve or of steps in a flight of stairs..  But if independent knowledgeable and credible reviewers say this sort of information is given well, while I don’t think skilled cane or dog users will flock to purchase a 750 dollar device when what they have works well, at the same time, I don’t think learning to use the device and integrating it with cane or dog use will be a problem.  I just doubt very much that it is worth the money.



Gene

-----Original Message-----

From: Victor <mailto:victorelawrence@...>

Sent: Friday, May 07, 2021 6:07 AM

To: main@techtalk.groups.io <mailto:main@techtalk.groups.io>

Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device



That’s a good question!



Victor





On May 7, 2021, at 3:56 AM, Gerald Levy via groups.io mailto:bwaylimited@... wrote:





What kind of personalized training is offered to purchasers of the Strap?  To sell this device without providing one on one training so that the purchaser is taught to wear and use it properly would be highly irresponsible. For such a mobility aid,printed instructions are insufficient.



Gerald





On 5/7/2021 1:59 AM, Nimer Jaber wrote:

A couple of other things:



Orcam does not do obstacle detection, and it requires that you train it to detect specific faces.



On Thu, May 6, 2021, 22:42 Victor <victorelawrence@... <mailto:victorelawrence@...> > wrote:

From  my  research ,  the  best  all-around  mobility  device  seems  to  be  the  Orcam  device.   It  detects  objects, reads print, recognizes faces and more.  It probably doesn't replace the cane, but this Strap device hasn't been around long enough to prove itself.  Orcam has been on the market for a few years and I've read good things about it.



If I were to spend money on an advanced mobility device, and if the payments were affordable, Orcam is probably what I'd buy.



Victor





On May 6, 2021, at 5:09 PM, James Bentley <bentleyj1952@... <mailto:bentleyj1952@...> > wrote:



The experimental Japanese robotic guide dog also got put down.  It couldn’t handle stairs.



James B



From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io>  <main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io> > On Behalf Of Gerald Levy via groups.io <http://groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, May 6, 2021 5:30 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device





Well, the NYPD's robotic dog didn't work out and had to be put down.  So don't count on a robotic guide dog any time soon.



Gerald





On 5/6/2021 5:39 PM, Pamela Dominguez wrote:

The only kind of guide dog I would ever have would be a robotic one.  Pam.

-----Original Message----- From: Carolyn Arnold
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2021 5:09 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

Probably there would be a little less maintenance with robotic guide dog.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io>  [mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io] On Behalf Of Pamela Dominguez
Sent: Thursday, May 6, 2021 2:57 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

I guess that would be good for all the people who have smart phones.  But it still wouldn’t be good for the rest of us.  Pam.

From: Victor mailto:victorelawrence@...
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2021 11:34 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io <mailto:main@techtalk.groups.io>  mailto:main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

If I were wealthy, I might purchase this device just to play with it and provide feedback to the developers. In the meantime, why can’t someone just develop existing smart phone apps to do the same thing? Why can’t we just place our smart phones in a wearable lanyard with the phone's camera facing away from our bodies to accomplish the same things? Supersense and other similar apps could accomplish the same things if these apps are developed a little more. If you want this device, go out and purchase it. As for me, I’m not going to run out and purchase this device just because it’s the latest thing that technology developers think is going to be great. They are probably wrong.

I think there was a recently published article about robotic seeing eye dogs. Honestly, I think such a device might be more useful than this device. Again, I have never wanted a seeing eye dog. However, a robotic seeing Eye dog might be useful.

Just my thoughts,

Victor



On May 6, 2021, at 7:43 AM, chris judge mailto:chrisjudge1967@... wrote:





I’m definitely interested. New tech is always exciting. I wouldn’t pre-order, at least not yet, but if it can do what they claim I may add it to my tech tool kit.



Chris Judge

<https://www.freedomscientific.com/Training/Certification> <https://www.freedomscientific.com/Training/Certification>



From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io>  mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io On Behalf Of Nimer Jaber
Sent: May 6, 2021 11:37 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io <mailto:main@techtalk.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device



Hello Dave,



This device is mounted to the chest for precisely the reason you mention, the issue that people with glasses or with arm bands and such end up moving about, thus making detecting obstacles more difficult. The chest tends to be relatively proportional with the direction the body is moving in.



They also state that Strap will detect cracks in the sidewalk, and assist users in travelling in a straight line. Is it trailing? Sort of, but no. Guide dog users don't trail either, as you know, and use different clues while traveling to get to where they wish to go.



I do have reservations, I don't think that this device, in its first iteration, will be a great cane replacement, but I do think the developers are worth supporting, and I do hope lots of people buy it to provide the devs feedback, and to help this kind of a product move forward. One concern I have is regarding detection of, for instance, doorways where the door is closed, but this can be a challenge, to different degrees and in different ways, with both a cane and a dog. The cane requires trailing which may be a bit difficult if there is, for instance, lots of outdoor displays or furniture, not to mention a bit noisy, and the dog may or may not want to indicate a particular doorway, and may confuse windows with doors.



Each mobility device has its pros and cons, but I do think that a product like this is worth taking notice of, and at least trying and providing meaningful feedback for.



On Thu, May 6, 2021 at 7:23 AM Dave <dlh007@... <mailto:dlh007@...>  mailto:dlh007@... > wrote:

Devices like this have been made before.  I recall one such device that
was built into a pair of glasses.  Think they were called Sonar
Glasses.  The user needed to move their Head side to side back and forth
as well as up and down, to have the Beam cover the front, as the person
was walking.


Get to a set of Stairs, and the device would Beep a series of notes like
going up or down a scale.

Now, as far as I am concerned, if someone wants to purchase this type of
devise, go ahead.  If you think it will help you, by all means, go for it.


I can think of one aspect of using a Cane that might be  a problem using
this Strap Device.


I would be curious to try something like this, but at first glance, I
can't see how it could do as good of job as my Cane. But, again, don't
let my thoughts frighten you away.

How would a person Trail, as they are walking along?


Let's say I have one of those situations where I am walking on a walking
area made of pavement, which is blended into the street. On the left,
there is a White line that helps Sighted folks from walking out into the
street.  And on the right is a Seam, or very narrow Crack where the
pavement meets the Cement of a Store Front parking area.


With a Cane I can feel the Texture differences between the pavement and
the Cement, or I might be able to detect the Seam or Crack.  Not sure
how those Sonar device would help in this situation.


And like with the Sonar Glasses of years past, does the operator need to
continuously twist their body from side to side to have the sonar beams
cover what's on the left and right?  That could be an interesting Boogie
Woogie move for someone to do while they are walking.


Personally, I have used a Cane for years, and I did have a guide Dog
for  several years.  I found the Dog was in general, better than using a
Cane, especially in deep Snow and packed Ice conditions.


But, the up keep and care of the Dog, and the reactions to the Dog
others would exhibit were down sides for me.  And when my Dog was
retired, I decided to return to using a Cane.


I have good cane skills so going back was not an issue, unless it Snowed
four or five inches over night, and I now had to wait for others to walk
on the walk ways to make a path I could follow with a Cane.


However, if anyone has this device, or had something like it in the
past, I would be curious to hear of your experiences with it.



Grumpy Dave





















Re: Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

Gene
 

And I have no reason to believe the device makes that better or worse.
 
Gene

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, May 07, 2021 11:47 AM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device
 
It is just that people with hearing deficits on top of visual ones are faced with a greater challenge when traveling outdoors.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io [mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Friday, May 7, 2021 8:30 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

Your extrapolation is unfounded, or is so unless you have tried something similar, using haptic input.  And even if there is something to your objection, it is very easily countered, as I shall do.
 
For one thing, if you haven’t tried this, you have no basis to assume that vibrations will distract from what you hear.  Number two, if it does, you can, as I said work with the device until the information becomes integrated and is not a distraction.  And, as a third point, you can turn off the device while crossing a street if you wish, thus completely eliminating the problem.  Also, you are completely disregarding the claim that the device provides straight line navigation.  I don’t know what that means in what context, it is undefined in what I’ve heard about the product.  But if it allows someone to know that they are proceeding straight across a street, that would be of benefit to people who are and are not hearing impaired.
 
Your comparison of learning to use this device with learning to use a cane is incorrect.  You are comparing completely different devices.  The haptic device can plausibly be expected to more or less teach the person how to use it.  The persson can travel in an environment, using a cane, and see what he feels and learn to understand and use it.  The person can feel something from the device and see, by exploring the environment what it is if he can’t tell or make a good guess.  If you walk with a cane while learning to use the device, you are not giving up any ability to explore your environment as you might do without the device.
 
Learning to use a cane on the other hand requires learning a technique to move the cane, and learning other skills if the person doesn’t already have them, such as learning how to listen for traffic direction and line up on traffic.  Analogizing between the two devices is incorrect.
 
Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Gerald Levy via groups.io <mailto:bwaylimited@...>
Sent: Friday, May 07, 2021 6:59 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device
 

 

I make that assumption on the basis of someone who is hearing impaired.  Trying to accurately detect traffic flow patterens while wearing hearing aids is difficult enough without the added distraction of vibrations from an electronic mobility aid. Quite frankly, the company is taking a slapdash, lackadaisical attitude with regard to training by expecting purchasers to become adept in the use of the Strap simply by listening to a tutorial.  Do you know anyone who has ever become a successful white cane user simply by listening to a tutorial without any comprehensive personalized trainig from an O&M specialist?




Gerald



 







On 5/7/2021 7:32 AM, Gene wrote:


The podcast I linked to previously includes one of the developers explaining about the tutorial that comes with the device.  it demonstrates, by discussing and causing the device to make them, different haptic occurrences and what they mean.  the person says that after going through the short tutorial, the person learning the device might want to go outdoors using his cane and the device so he/she can learn how to use it in that way.

In another message, you said the haptic vibrations might distract from traffic sounds.  I see no reason to believe that.  On what basis do you make such a statement?  Why should vibrations and other sensations on your chest and other areas of your body interfere with your concentration on hearing.  And if they do at first, anyone with any sense won’t go into traffic until they have learned to experience both without degredation.

I remain skeptical that this device will be widely used because of cost and because I am yet to be persuaded that it will give me the kind of detailed information I want such as the height of a curve or of steps in a flight of stairs..  But if independent knowledgeable and credible reviewers say this sort of information is given well, while I don’t think skilled cane or dog users will flock to purchase a 750 dollar device when what they have works well, at the same time, I don’t think learning to use the device and integrating it with cane or dog use will be a problem.  I just doubt very much that it is worth the money.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Victor <mailto:victorelawrence@...>
Sent: Friday, May 07, 2021 6:07 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io <mailto:main@techtalk.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

That’s a good question!

Victor




On May 7, 2021, at 3:56 AM, Gerald Levy via groups.io mailto:bwaylimited@... wrote:







What kind of personalized training is offered to purchasers of the Strap?  To sell this device without providing one on one training so that the purchaser is taught to wear and use it properly would be highly irresponsible. For such a mobility aid,printed instructions are insufficient.




Gerald






On 5/7/2021 1:59 AM, Nimer Jaber wrote:


A couple of other things:

Orcam does not do obstacle detection, and it requires that you train it to detect specific faces.

On Thu, May 6, 2021, 22:42 Victor <victorelawrence@... <mailto:victorelawrence@...> > wrote:


From  my  research ,  the  best  all-around  mobility  device  seems  to  be  the  Orcam  device.   It  detects  objects, reads print, recognizes faces and more.  It probably doesn't replace the cane, but this Strap device hasn't been around long enough to prove itself.  Orcam has been on the market for a few years and I've read good things about it.

If I were to spend money on an advanced mobility device, and if the payments were affordable, Orcam is probably what I'd buy.

Victor




On May 6, 2021, at 5:09 PM, James Bentley <bentleyj1952@... <mailto:bentleyj1952@...> > wrote:





The experimental Japanese robotic guide dog also got put down.  It couldn’t handle stairs.



James B



From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io>  <main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io> > On Behalf Of Gerald Levy via groups.io <http://groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, May 6, 2021 5:30 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device





Well, the NYPD's robotic dog didn't work out and had to be put down.  So don't count on a robotic guide dog any time soon.



Gerald





On 5/6/2021 5:39 PM, Pamela Dominguez wrote:

The only kind of guide dog I would ever have would be a robotic one.  Pam.

-----Original Message----- From: Carolyn Arnold
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2021 5:09 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

Probably there would be a little less maintenance with robotic guide dog.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io>  [mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io] On Behalf Of Pamela Dominguez
Sent: Thursday, May 6, 2021 2:57 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

I guess that would be good for all the people who have smart phones.  But it still wouldn’t be good for the rest of us.  Pam.

From: Victor mailto:victorelawrence@...
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2021 11:34 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io <mailto:main@techtalk.groups.io>  mailto:main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

If I were wealthy, I might purchase this device just to play with it and provide feedback to the developers. In the meantime, why can’t someone just develop existing smart phone apps to do the same thing? Why can’t we just place our smart phones in a wearable lanyard with the phone's camera facing away from our bodies to accomplish the same things? Supersense and other similar apps could accomplish the same things if these apps are developed a little more. If you want this device, go out and purchase it. As for me, I’m not going to run out and purchase this device just because it’s the latest thing that technology developers think is going to be great. They are probably wrong.

I think there was a recently published article about robotic seeing eye dogs. Honestly, I think such a device might be more useful than this device. Again, I have never wanted a seeing eye dog. However, a robotic seeing Eye dog might be useful.

Just my thoughts,

Victor



On May 6, 2021, at 7:43 AM, chris judge mailto:chrisjudge1967@... wrote:





I’m definitely interested. New tech is always exciting. I wouldn’t pre-order, at least not yet, but if it can do what they claim I may add it to my tech tool kit.



Chris Judge

<https://www.freedomscientific.com/Training/Certification> <https://www.freedomscientific.com/Training/Certification>



From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io>  mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io On Behalf Of Nimer Jaber
Sent: May 6, 2021 11:37 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io <mailto:main@techtalk.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device



Hello Dave,



This device is mounted to the chest for precisely the reason you mention, the issue that people with glasses or with arm bands and such end up moving about, thus making detecting obstacles more difficult. The chest tends to be relatively proportional with the direction the body is moving in.



They also state that Strap will detect cracks in the sidewalk, and assist users in travelling in a straight line. Is it trailing? Sort of, but no. Guide dog users don't trail either, as you know, and use different clues while traveling to get to where they wish to go.



I do have reservations, I don't think that this device, in its first iteration, will be a great cane replacement, but I do think the developers are worth supporting, and I do hope lots of people buy it to provide the devs feedback, and to help this kind of a product move forward. One concern I have is regarding detection of, for instance, doorways where the door is closed, but this can be a challenge, to different degrees and in different ways, with both a cane and a dog. The cane requires trailing which may be a bit difficult if there is, for instance, lots of outdoor displays or furniture, not to mention a bit noisy, and the dog may or may not want to indicate a particular doorway, and may confuse windows with doors.



Each mobility device has its pros and cons, but I do think that a product like this is worth taking notice of, and at least trying and providing meaningful feedback for.



On Thu, May 6, 2021 at 7:23 AM Dave <dlh007@... <mailto:dlh007@...>  mailto:dlh007@... > wrote:

Devices like this have been made before.  I recall one such device that
was built into a pair of glasses.  Think they were called Sonar
Glasses.  The user needed to move their Head side to side back and forth
as well as up and down, to have the Beam cover the front, as the person
was walking.


Get to a set of Stairs, and the device would Beep a series of notes like
going up or down a scale.

Now, as far as I am concerned, if someone wants to purchase this type of
devise, go ahead.  If you think it will help you, by all means, go for it.


I can think of one aspect of using a Cane that might be  a problem using
this Strap Device.


I would be curious to try something like this, but at first glance, I
can't see how it could do as good of job as my Cane. But, again, don't
let my thoughts frighten you away.

How would a person Trail, as they are walking along?


Let's say I have one of those situations where I am walking on a walking
area made of pavement, which is blended into the street. On the left,
there is a White line that helps Sighted folks from walking out into the
street.  And on the right is a Seam, or very narrow Crack where the
pavement meets the Cement of a Store Front parking area.


With a Cane I can feel the Texture differences between the pavement and
the Cement, or I might be able to detect the Seam or Crack.  Not sure
how those Sonar device would help in this situation.


And like with the Sonar Glasses of years past, does the operator need to
continuously twist their body from side to side to have the sonar beams
cover what's on the left and right?  That could be an interesting Boogie
Woogie move for someone to do while they are walking.


Personally, I have used a Cane for years, and I did have a guide Dog
for  several years.  I found the Dog was in general, better than using a
Cane, especially in deep Snow and packed Ice conditions.


But, the up keep and care of the Dog, and the reactions to the Dog
others would exhibit were down sides for me.  And when my Dog was
retired, I decided to return to using a Cane.


I have good cane skills so going back was not an issue, unless it Snowed
four or five inches over night, and I now had to wait for others to walk
on the walk ways to make a path I could follow with a Cane.


However, if anyone has this device, or had something like it in the
past, I would be curious to hear of your experiences with it.



Grumpy Dave






















Re: Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

Gene
 

No one has claimed that the device detracts from the need to hear traffic.  Gerald’s contention is that the device, providing entirely different stimulation, vibrations, which don’t involve hearing at all, will distract from listening to traffic.  I doubt it but if that is the case, you can learn to not be distracted or turn the device off when you cross. 
 
Gene

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, May 07, 2021 11:45 AM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device
 
Exactly, Gerald. Unless someone has diminished hearing, they would have no idea of the overwhelming sound of traffic. To me, it sounds like it is all around me, under me, over me, everywhere, making any navigation in traffic a study of intense and unpleasant concentration.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io [mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gerald Levy via groups.io
Sent: Friday, May 7, 2021 7:59 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device




I make that assumption on the basis of someone who is hearing impaired.  Trying to accurately detect traffic flow patterens while wearing hearing aids is difficult enough without the added distraction of vibrations from an electronic mobility aid. Quite frankly, the company is taking a slapdash, lackadaisical attitude with regard to training by expecting purchasers to become adept in the use of the Strap simply by listening to a tutorial.  Do you know anyone who has ever become a successful white cane user simply by listening to a tutorial without any comprehensive personalized trainig from an O&M specialist?




Gerald


 








On 5/7/2021 7:32 AM, Gene wrote:


The podcast I linked to previously includes one of the developers explaining about the tutorial that comes with the device.  it demonstrates, by discussing and causing the device to make them, different haptic occurrences and what they mean.  the person says that after going through the short tutorial, the person learning the device might want to go outdoors using his cane and the device so he/she can learn how to use it in that way.

In another message, you said the haptic vibrations might distract from traffic sounds.  I see no reason to believe that.  On what basis do you make such a statement?  Why should vibrations and other sensations on your chest and other areas of your body interfere with your concentration on hearing.  And if they do at first, anyone with any sense won’t go into traffic until they have learned to experience both without degredation.

I remain skeptical that this device will be widely used because of cost and because I am yet to be persuaded that it will give me the kind of detailed information I want such as the height of a curve or of steps in a flight of stairs..  But if independent knowledgeable and credible reviewers say this sort of information is given well, while I don’t think skilled cane or dog users will flock to purchase a 750 dollar device when what they have works well, at the same time, I don’t think learning to use the device and integrating it with cane or dog use will be a problem.  I just doubt very much that it is worth the money.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Victor <mailto:victorelawrence@...>
Sent: Friday, May 07, 2021 6:07 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io <mailto:main@techtalk.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

That’s a good question!

Victor




On May 7, 2021, at 3:56 AM, Gerald Levy via groups.io <bwaylimited@...> <mailto:bwaylimited@...>  wrote:







What kind of personalized training is offered to purchasers of the Strap?  To sell this device without providing one on one training so that the purchaser is taught to wear and use it properly would be highly irresponsible. For such a mobility aid,printed instructions are insufficient.





Gerald








On 5/7/2021 1:59 AM, Nimer Jaber wrote:


A couple of other things:

Orcam does not do obstacle detection, and it requires that you train it to detect specific faces.

On Thu, May 6, 2021, 22:42 Victor <victorelawrence@... <mailto:victorelawrence@...> > wrote:


From  my  research ,  the  best  all-around  mobility  device  seems  to  be  the  Orcam  device.   It  detects  objects, reads print, recognizes faces and more.  It probably doesn't replace the cane, but this Strap device hasn't been around long enough to prove itself.  Orcam has been on the market for a few years and I've read good things about it.

If I were to spend money on an advanced mobility device, and if the payments were affordable, Orcam is probably what I'd buy.

Victor




On May 6, 2021, at 5:09 PM, James Bentley <bentleyj1952@... <mailto:bentleyj1952@...> > wrote:





The experimental Japanese robotic guide dog also got put down.  It couldn’t handle stairs.



James B



From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io>  <main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io> > On Behalf Of Gerald Levy via groups.io <http://groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, May 6, 2021 5:30 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device





Well, the NYPD's robotic dog didn't work out and had to be put down.  So don't count on a robotic guide dog any time soon.



Gerald





On 5/6/2021 5:39 PM, Pamela Dominguez wrote:

The only kind of guide dog I would ever have would be a robotic one.  Pam.

-----Original Message----- From: Carolyn Arnold
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2021 5:09 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

Probably there would be a little less maintenance with robotic guide dog.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io>  [mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io] On Behalf Of Pamela Dominguez
Sent: Thursday, May 6, 2021 2:57 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

I guess that would be good for all the people who have smart phones.  But it still wouldn’t be good for the rest of us.  Pam.

From: Victor mailto:victorelawrence@...
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2021 11:34 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io <mailto:main@techtalk.groups.io>  mailto:main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

If I were wealthy, I might purchase this device just to play with it and provide feedback to the developers. In the meantime, why can’t someone just develop existing smart phone apps to do the same thing? Why can’t we just place our smart phones in a wearable lanyard with the phone's camera facing away from our bodies to accomplish the same things? Supersense and other similar apps could accomplish the same things if these apps are developed a little more. If you want this device, go out and purchase it. As for me, I’m not going to run out and purchase this device just because it’s the latest thing that technology developers think is going to be great. They are probably wrong.

I think there was a recently published article about robotic seeing eye dogs. Honestly, I think such a device might be more useful than this device. Again, I have never wanted a seeing eye dog. However, a robotic seeing Eye dog might be useful.

Just my thoughts,

Victor



On May 6, 2021, at 7:43 AM, chris judge mailto:chrisjudge1967@... wrote:





I’m definitely interested. New tech is always exciting. I wouldn’t pre-order, at least not yet, but if it can do what they claim I may add it to my tech tool kit.



Chris Judge

<https://www.freedomscientific.com/Training/Certification> <https://www.freedomscientific.com/Training/Certification>



From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io>  mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io On Behalf Of Nimer Jaber
Sent: May 6, 2021 11:37 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io <mailto:main@techtalk.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device



Hello Dave,



This device is mounted to the chest for precisely the reason you mention, the issue that people with glasses or with arm bands and such end up moving about, thus making detecting obstacles more difficult. The chest tends to be relatively proportional with the direction the body is moving in.



They also state that Strap will detect cracks in the sidewalk, and assist users in travelling in a straight line. Is it trailing? Sort of, but no. Guide dog users don't trail either, as you know, and use different clues while traveling to get to where they wish to go.



I do have reservations, I don't think that this device, in its first iteration, will be a great cane replacement, but I do think the developers are worth supporting, and I do hope lots of people buy it to provide the devs feedback, and to help this kind of a product move forward. One concern I have is regarding detection of, for instance, doorways where the door is closed, but this can be a challenge, to different degrees and in different ways, with both a cane and a dog. The cane requires trailing which may be a bit difficult if there is, for instance, lots of outdoor displays or furniture, not to mention a bit noisy, and the dog may or may not want to indicate a particular doorway, and may confuse windows with doors.



Each mobility device has its pros and cons, but I do think that a product like this is worth taking notice of, and at least trying and providing meaningful feedback for.



On Thu, May 6, 2021 at 7:23 AM Dave <dlh007@... <mailto:dlh007@...>  mailto:dlh007@... > wrote:

Devices like this have been made before.  I recall one such device that
was built into a pair of glasses.  Think they were called Sonar
Glasses.  The user needed to move their Head side to side back and forth
as well as up and down, to have the Beam cover the front, as the person
was walking.


Get to a set of Stairs, and the device would Beep a series of notes like
going up or down a scale.

Now, as far as I am concerned, if someone wants to purchase this type of
devise, go ahead.  If you think it will help you, by all means, go for it.


I can think of one aspect of using a Cane that might be  a problem using
this Strap Device.


I would be curious to try something like this, but at first glance, I
can't see how it could do as good of job as my Cane. But, again, don't
let my thoughts frighten you away.

How would a person Trail, as they are walking along?


Let's say I have one of those situations where I am walking on a walking
area made of pavement, which is blended into the street. On the left,
there is a White line that helps Sighted folks from walking out into the
street.  And on the right is a Seam, or very narrow Crack where the
pavement meets the Cement of a Store Front parking area.


With a Cane I can feel the Texture differences between the pavement and
the Cement, or I might be able to detect the Seam or Crack.  Not sure
how those Sonar device would help in this situation.


And like with the Sonar Glasses of years past, does the operator need to
continuously twist their body from side to side to have the sonar beams
cover what's on the left and right?  That could be an interesting Boogie
Woogie move for someone to do while they are walking.


Personally, I have used a Cane for years, and I did have a guide Dog
for  several years.  I found the Dog was in general, better than using a
Cane, especially in deep Snow and packed Ice conditions.


But, the up keep and care of the Dog, and the reactions to the Dog
others would exhibit were down sides for me.  And when my Dog was
retired, I decided to return to using a Cane.


I have good cane skills so going back was not an issue, unless it Snowed
four or five inches over night, and I now had to wait for others to walk
on the walk ways to make a path I could follow with a Cane.


However, if anyone has this device, or had something like it in the
past, I would be curious to hear of your experiences with it.



Grumpy Dave






















Re: Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

Carolyn Arnold
 

The training cost is included in the cost of an Optacon, or was, I think, at least if the Optacon was purchased at Telesensory Inc.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io [mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io] On Behalf Of chris judge
Sent: Friday, May 7, 2021 10:58 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

Yes, now that you mention it, back in 1990 when I began at Royal bank they bought me an Optacon. A lady came over from Boston and provided me with two weeks of training. I don’t know if it was included in the cost of the device or if the bank paid extra.



From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Geoff Eden
Sent: May 7, 2021 11:23 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device



Optacon.



Geoff

On 2021-05-07 9:14 a.m., chris judge wrote:

I’ve been racking my old brain to come up with examples of products in the past that came with specialised training. Sorry but I’m drawing a blank.



Chris Judge

<https://www.freedomscientific.com/Training/Certification>



From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io> <main@TechTalk.groups.io> <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gerald Levy via groups.io
Sent: May 7, 2021 8:59 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device





I make that assumption on the basis of someone who is hearing impaired. Trying to accurately detect traffic flow patterens while wearing hearing aids is difficult enough without the added distraction of vibrations from an electronic mobility aid. Quite frankly, the company is taking a slapdash, lackadaisical attitude with regard to training by expecting purchasers to become adept in the use of the Strap simply by listening to a tutorial. Do you know anyone who has ever become a successful white cane user simply by listening to a tutorial without any comprehensive personalized trainig from an O&M specialist?



Gerald







On 5/7/2021 7:32 AM, Gene wrote:

The podcast I linked to previously includes one of the developers explaining about the tutorial that comes with the device. it demonstrates, by discussing and causing the device to make them, different haptic occurrences and what they mean. the person says that after going through the short tutorial, the person learning the device might want to go outdoors using his cane and the device so he/she can learn how to use it in that way.



In another message, you said the haptic vibrations might distract from traffic sounds. I see no reason to believe that. On what basis do you make such a statement? Why should vibrations and other sensations on your chest and other areas of your body interfere with your concentration on hearing. And if they do at first, anyone with any sense won’t go into traffic until they have learned to experience both without degredation.



I remain skeptical that this device will be widely used because of cost and because I am yet to be persuaded that it will give me the kind of detailed information I want such as the height of a curve or of steps in a flight of stairs.. But if independent knowledgeable and credible reviewers say this sort of information is given well, while I don’t think skilled cane or dog users will flock to purchase a 750 dollar device when what they have works well, at the same time, I don’t think learning to use the device and integrating it with cane or dog use will be a problem. I just doubt very much that it is worth the money.



Gene

-----Original Message-----

From: Victor <mailto:victorelawrence@gmail.com>

Sent: Friday, May 07, 2021 6:07 AM

To: main@techtalk.groups.io <mailto:main@techtalk.groups.io>

Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device



That’s a good question!



Victor



On May 7, 2021, at 3:56 AM, Gerald Levy via groups.io <bwaylimited=verizon.net@groups.io> <mailto:bwaylimited=verizon.net@groups.io> wrote:





What kind of personalized training is offered to purchasers of the Strap? To sell this device without providing one on one training so that the purchaser is taught to wear and use it properly would be highly irresponsible. For such a mobility aid,printed instructions are insufficient.



Gerald





On 5/7/2021 1:59 AM, Nimer Jaber wrote:

A couple of other things:



Orcam does not do obstacle detection, and it requires that you train it to detect specific faces.



On Thu, May 6, 2021, 22:42 Victor <victorelawrence@gmail.com <mailto:victorelawrence@gmail.com> > wrote:

From my research , the best all-around mobility device seems to be the Orcam device. It detects objects, reads print, recognizes faces and more. It probably doesn't replace the cane, but this Strap device hasn't been around long enough to prove itself. Orcam has been on the market for a few years and I've read good things about it.



If I were to spend money on an advanced mobility device, and if the payments were affordable, Orcam is probably what I'd buy.



Victor



On May 6, 2021, at 5:09 PM, James Bentley <bentleyj1952@gmail.com <mailto:bentleyj1952@gmail.com> > wrote:



The experimental Japanese robotic guide dog also got put down. It couldn’t handle stairs.



James B



From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io> <main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io> > On Behalf Of Gerald Levy via groups.io <http://groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, May 6, 2021 5:30 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device





Well, the NYPD's robotic dog didn't work out and had to be put down. So don't count on a robotic guide dog any time soon.



Gerald





On 5/6/2021 5:39 PM, Pamela Dominguez wrote:

The only kind of guide dog I would ever have would be a robotic one. Pam.

-----Original Message----- From: Carolyn Arnold
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2021 5:09 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

Probably there would be a little less maintenance with robotic guide dog.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io> [mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io] On Behalf Of Pamela Dominguez
Sent: Thursday, May 6, 2021 2:57 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

I guess that would be good for all the people who have smart phones. But it still wouldn’t be good for the rest of us. Pam.

From: Victor mailto:victorelawrence@gmail.com
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2021 11:34 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io <mailto:main@techtalk.groups.io> mailto:main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device

If I were wealthy, I might purchase this device just to play with it and provide feedback to the developers. In the meantime, why can’t someone just develop existing smart phone apps to do the same thing? Why can’t we just place our smart phones in a wearable lanyard with the phone's camera facing away from our bodies to accomplish the same things? Supersense and other similar apps could accomplish the same things if these apps are developed a little more. If you want this device, go out and purchase it. As for me, I’m not going to run out and purchase this device just because it’s the latest thing that technology developers think is going to be great. They are probably wrong.

I think there was a recently published article about robotic seeing eye dogs. Honestly, I think such a device might be more useful than this device. Again, I have never wanted a seeing eye dog. However, a robotic seeing Eye dog might be useful.

Just my thoughts,

Victor



On May 6, 2021, at 7:43 AM, chris judge mailto:chrisjudge1967@gmail.com wrote:





I’m definitely interested. New tech is always exciting. I wouldn’t pre-order, at least not yet, but if it can do what they claim I may add it to my tech tool kit.



Chris Judge

<https://www.freedomscientific.com/Training/Certification> <https://www.freedomscientific.com/Training/Certification>



From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io> mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io On Behalf Of Nimer Jaber
Sent: May 6, 2021 11:37 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io <mailto:main@techtalk.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Blind Tech Guys Strap Device



Hello Dave,



This device is mounted to the chest for precisely the reason you mention, the issue that people with glasses or with arm bands and such end up moving about, thus making detecting obstacles more difficult. The chest tends to be relatively proportional with the direction the body is moving in.



They also state that Strap will detect cracks in the sidewalk, and assist users in travelling in a straight line. Is it trailing? Sort of, but no. Guide dog users don't trail either, as you know, and use different clues while traveling to get to where they wish to go.



I do have reservations, I don't think that this device, in its first iteration, will be a great cane replacement, but I do think the developers are worth supporting, and I do hope lots of people buy it to provide the devs feedback, and to help this kind of a product move forward. One concern I have is regarding detection of, for instance, doorways where the door is closed, but this can be a challenge, to different degrees and in different ways, with both a cane and a dog. The cane requires trailing which may be a bit difficult if there is, for instance, lots of outdoor displays or furniture, not to mention a bit noisy, and the dog may or may not want to indicate a particular doorway, and may confuse windows with doors.



Each mobility device has its pros and cons, but I do think that a product like this is worth taking notice of, and at least trying and providing meaningful feedback for.



On Thu, May 6, 2021 at 7:23 AM Dave <dlh007@centurylink.net <mailto:dlh007@centurylink.net> mailto:dlh007@centurylink.net > wrote:

Devices like this have been made before. I recall one such device that
was built into a pair of glasses. Think they were called Sonar
Glasses. The user needed to move their Head side to side back and forth
as well as up and down, to have the Beam cover the front, as the person
was walking.


Get to a set of Stairs, and the device would Beep a series of notes like
going up or down a scale.

Now, as far as I am concerned, if someone wants to purchase this type of
devise, go ahead. If you think it will help you, by all means, go for it.


I can think of one aspect of using a Cane that might be a problem using
this Strap Device.


I would be curious to try something like this, but at first glance, I
can't see how it could do as good of job as my Cane. But, again, don't
let my thoughts frighten you away.

How would a person Trail, as they are walking along?


Let's say I have one of those situations where I am walking on a walking
area made of pavement, which is blended into the street. On the left,
there is a White line that helps Sighted folks from walking out into the
street. And on the right is a Seam, or very narrow Crack where the
pavement meets the Cement of a Store Front parking area.


With a Cane I can feel the Texture differences between the pavement and
the Cement, or I might be able to detect the Seam or Crack. Not sure
how those Sonar device would help in this situation.


And like with the Sonar Glasses of years past, does the operator need to
continuously twist their body from side to side to have the sonar beams
cover what's on the left and right? That could be an interesting Boogie
Woogie move for someone to do while they are walking.


Personally, I have used a Cane for years, and I did have a guide Dog
for several years. I found the Dog was in general, better than using a
Cane, especially in deep Snow and packed Ice conditions.


But, the up keep and care of the Dog, and the reactions to the Dog
others would exhibit were down sides for me. And when my Dog was
retired, I decided to return to using a Cane.


I have good cane skills so going back was not an issue, unless it Snowed
four or five inches over night, and I now had to wait for others to walk
on the walk ways to make a path I could follow with a Cane.


However, if anyone has this device, or had something like it in the
past, I would be curious to hear of your experiences with it.



Grumpy Dave

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