Date   

Re: A puzzling behavior in an IMAP account

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

On Thu, Sep 17, 2020 at 02:34 PM, Gene wrote:
That's surprising and unexpected.
-
Gene, what follows is not meant as argumentative, but, no, it's not.  If you are using IMAP or Exchange then it's expected that you will use that protocol for all access.  One of the primary reasons for both coming into being was so synchronization was an automatic and seamless part of the protocol, no matter how many devices and clients were connected to the same account.

POP3 has always been a nightmare to keep synchronized when its default settings are used, and a challenge even when tweaked.  It really should not be used by anyone who intends to access the same account from multiple devices or on the same device but using multiple e-mail clients.  It is that simple, and if you want to web search you'll find this is not a matter of personal opinion.

POP3 and IMAP/Exchange are from two very different eras of e-mail access.  POP3 being the earliest and from a time where it was never anticipated that people would be looking at the same account in multiple locations and using multiple clients and devices.  It is an anachronism at this point in time.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.

        ~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com


Re: A puzzling behavior in an IMAP account

Gene
 

I should add that it isn't clear to me whether this is a characteristic of GMail or of using two different protocols in general with providers.


Gene

On 9/17/2020 1:33 PM, Gene via groups.                     wrote:
That's surprising and unexpected.  Windows Live Mail is my preferred program and POP3 meets my needs well but its nice to be able to open Thunderbird and easily find something if I want to refer to it again in Trash.  I can also check my spam folder in Thunderbird which is faster and more convenient than going to my GMail page online.

And I have convenient access to the GMail all mail mailbox.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2020 1:28 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] A puzzling behavior in an IMAP account

Gene,

         You've nailed your problem right there.  Gmail handles POP3 and IMAP, even for the same account, pretty much as though they're entirely different servers.  I've never understood what the actual mechanics of this are in practice, but Gmail allows you to turn on options for both POP and IMAP access for a single account, and when they are both on, each access method works in "it's own little world."  In practice it is never expected that a single account will be accessed with both protocols. If Google had been smart that radio button would allow only one of those two options to be active.  And as you've now learned from direct experience, when one is, there's always a level of madness that ensues if mixed access via different clients is used.

         With any given account, if you're using IMAP, use it in each and every client that accesses the account if you want things kept in sync.


Re: A puzzling behavior in an IMAP account

Gene
 

No, I delete most messages, saving this or that one in a different folder.  But all the messages I deleted were downloaded again in Windows Live Mail using a POP3 account.  I have no idea why this happens, but according to Brian, this sort of thing or other oddities are to be expected when you use two different protocols, if that is the right term, with the same account.


Gene

On 9/17/2020 1:38 PM, Blaster wrote:
That totally makes sense. I was following this thread, because if I'm
correct, I believe Gene was going to use Thunderbird to cut through
the bulk of the lists e-mails, deleting the ones he didn't want and
leaving the ones that he did want on the server where he could
download them with Live mail for archival purposes. At least that's
what I thought was intriguing .

On 9/17/20, Brian Vogel <@britechguy> wrote:
Gene,

You've nailed your problem right there. Gmail handles POP3 and IMAP, even
for the same account, pretty much as though they're entirely different
servers. I've never understood what the actual mechanics of this are in
practice, but Gmail allows you to turn on options for both POP and IMAP
access for a single account, and when they are both on, each access method
works in "it's own little world." In practice it is never expected that a
single account will be accessed with both protocols. If Google had been
smart that radio button would allow only one of those two options to be
active. And as you've now learned from direct experience, when one is,
there's always a level of madness that ensues if mixed access via different
clients is used.

With any given account, if you're using IMAP, use it in each and every
client that accesses the account if you want things kept in sync.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

*Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely
fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.*

~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com







Re: A puzzling behavior in an IMAP account

Blaster
 

That totally makes sense. I was following this thread, because if I'm
correct, I believe Gene was going to use Thunderbird to cut through
the bulk of the lists e-mails, deleting the ones he didn't want and
leaving the ones that he did want on the server where he could
download them with Live mail for archival purposes. At least that's
what I thought was intriguing .

On 9/17/20, Brian Vogel <@britechguy> wrote:
Gene,

You've nailed your problem right there. Gmail handles POP3 and IMAP, even
for the same account, pretty much as though they're entirely different
servers. I've never understood what the actual mechanics of this are in
practice, but Gmail allows you to turn on options for both POP and IMAP
access for a single account, and when they are both on, each access method
works in "it's own little world." In practice it is never expected that a
single account will be accessed with both protocols. If Google had been
smart that radio button would allow only one of those two options to be
active. And as you've now learned from direct experience, when one is,
there's always a level of madness that ensues if mixed access via different
clients is used.

With any given account, if you're using IMAP, use it in each and every
client that accesses the account if you want things kept in sync.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

*Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely
fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.*

~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com






Re: A puzzling behavior in an IMAP account

Gene
 

That's surprising and unexpected. Windows Live Mail is my preferred program and POP3 meets my needs well but its nice to be able to open Thunderbird and easily find something if I want to refer to it again in Trash. I can also check my spam folder in Thunderbird which is faster and more convenient than going to my GMail page online.

And I have convenient access to the GMail all mail mailbox.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2020 1:28 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] A puzzling behavior in an IMAP account

Gene,

You've nailed your problem right there. Gmail handles POP3 and IMAP, even for the same account, pretty much as though they're entirely different servers. I've never understood what the actual mechanics of this are in practice, but Gmail allows you to turn on options for both POP and IMAP access for a single account, and when they are both on, each access method works in "it's own little world." In practice it is never expected that a single account will be accessed with both protocols. If Google had been smart that radio button would allow only one of those two options to be active. And as you've now learned from direct experience, when one is, there's always a level of madness that ensues if mixed access via different clients is used.

With any given account, if you're using IMAP, use it in each and every client that accesses the account if you want things kept in sync.

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.

~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com


Re: A puzzling behavior in an IMAP account

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

Gene,

          You've nailed your problem right there.  Gmail handles POP3 and IMAP, even for the same account, pretty much as though they're entirely different servers.  I've never understood what the actual mechanics of this are in practice, but Gmail allows you to turn on options for both POP and IMAP access for a single account, and when they are both on, each access method works in "it's own little world."  In practice it is never expected that a single account will be accessed with both protocols. If Google had been smart that radio button would allow only one of those two options to be active.  And as you've now learned from direct experience, when one is, there's always a level of madness that ensues if mixed access via different clients is used.

          With any given account, if you're using IMAP, use it in each and every client that accesses the account if you want things kept in sync.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.

        ~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com


Re: A puzzling behavior in an IMAP account

Gene
 

Mike and Brian
I deleted the trash and my mail was still downloaded in my POP3 account with another program. Its very puzzling.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike B
Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2020 7:58 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] A puzzling behavior in an IMAP account


Doesn't Gmail store copies of messages in the Trash folder for 30 days? If so, maybe that's the source.

Take care. Mike. Sent from my iBarstool. Go dodgers!
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2020 5:07 AM
Subject: [TechTalk] A puzzling behavior in an IMAP account

I just started playing around with my Gmail account set up as IMAP in one
e-mail program, the latest version of Thunderbird portable. I have it set
to delete messages from the inbox when I delete messages from my computer
and, as far as I can see, from the GMail inbox. But when I run another
e-mail program, Windows Live Mail, the messages download there even though
the GMail web interface shows the inbox to be empty. So where is GMail
downloading the messages from?

Gene


Re: A puzzling behavior in an IMAP account

Gene
 

I thought synchronization would occur quickly.  I checked perhaps a minute or two after I deleted the messages.  The account where mail is being downloaded a second time is a POP3 account, though I don't think that would matter.  The inbox in the GMail account itself is empty when I check online so synchronization should have occurred before I got new mail using Windows Live Mail and my POP3 account.


POP3 meets my needs well but I'm curious about this odd behavior. 


Gene

On 9/17/2020 9:30 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:
Gene,

           Did you allow sufficient time for the client where you did the deleting to sync to the server first, then make certain that the other client/device had done a sync to the server subsequent to that?

            Synchronization is not instantaneous, and occurs on timed cycles (at least most of the time), and if you've just deleted messages in one client/device, it has to sync those deletions to the server so it knows the messages need to be removed, then after that happens the other client/device has to do a sync so that it knows to remove them from itself.  I just had a client the other day who could not understand why Outlook on her PC was "so slow about catching up" to changes that had already occurred, whether that was incoming mail, deleted messages, etc., on her smartphone or tablet.  It was because the sync interval for Outlook was once every 30 minutes, which is an incredibly long time between checks if you want anything like the appearance of instantaneous change.  I never use longer than 10 minutes.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.

        ~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com


Re: A puzzling behavior in an IMAP account

Gene
 

I'm not sure what you are asking.  I see no reason that Windows Live Mail is going into the Thunderbird program and importing messages from there.  No other messages have been downloaded than mail I read in Thunderbird before I deleted it.


Gene

On 9/17/2020 7:59 AM, Blaster wrote:
Hmm, Since IMAP allows multiple devices to access and control one
e-mail account, Is it possible that Live Mail is downloading e-mail
from Thunderbird? Did Live mail download any e-mails that you
previously deleted with Thunderbird? If so, that is a concern.



On 9/17/20, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
I just started playing around with my Gmail account set up as IMAP in one
e-mail program, the latest version of Thunderbird portable. I have it set
to delete messages from the inbox when I delete messages from my computer
and, as far as I can see, from the GMail inbox. But when I run another
e-mail program, Windows Live Mail, the messages download there even though
the GMail web interface shows the inbox to be empty. So where is GMail
downloading the messages from?

Gene








Re: A puzzling behavior in an IMAP account

Gene
 

I can't say it isn't but that is illogical behavior.  I may experiment by deleting the trash and see what happens.


Gene

On 9/17/2020 7:58 AM, Mike B wrote:

Doesn't Gmail store copies of messages in the Trash folder for 30 days?  If so, maybe that's the source.

Take care.  Mike.  Sent from my iBarstool.  Go dodgers!
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2020 5:07 AM
Subject: [TechTalk] A puzzling behavior in an IMAP account

I just started playing around with my Gmail account set up as IMAP in one
e-mail program, the latest version of Thunderbird portable.  I have it set
to delete messages from the inbox when I delete messages from my computer
and, as far as I can see, from the GMail inbox.  But when I run another
e-mail program, Windows Live Mail, the messages download there even though
the GMail web interface shows the inbox to be empty.  So where is GMail
downloading the messages from?

Gene






Re: Thunder Thinks This Is Spam

Ann Parsons
 

Hi all,

Thanks for info RE checking the archives.

Ann P.

--
Ann K. Parsons
Portal Tutoring
EMAIL: akp@...
Author of The Demmies: http://www.dldbooks.com/annparsons/
Portal Tutoring web site: http://www.portaltutoring.info
Skype: Putertutor

"All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost."


Re: A puzzling behavior in an IMAP account

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

Gene,

           Did you allow sufficient time for the client where you did the deleting to sync to the server first, then make certain that the other client/device had done a sync to the server subsequent to that?

            Synchronization is not instantaneous, and occurs on timed cycles (at least most of the time), and if you've just deleted messages in one client/device, it has to sync those deletions to the server so it knows the messages need to be removed, then after that happens the other client/device has to do a sync so that it knows to remove them from itself.  I just had a client the other day who could not understand why Outlook on her PC was "so slow about catching up" to changes that had already occurred, whether that was incoming mail, deleted messages, etc., on her smartphone or tablet.  It was because the sync interval for Outlook was once every 30 minutes, which is an incredibly long time between checks if you want anything like the appearance of instantaneous change.  I never use longer than 10 minutes.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.

        ~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com


jaws math viewer

Josh Kennedy
 

Hi,

Check out this really neat math viewer script for jaws! You select  laTex or ascii math and then copy to clipboard and then hit a special jaws command that you probably define in keyboard manager not sure have not played with it yet… anyway hit a special command after you select or highlight some ascii math or laTex math anywhere whether its an edit field or somewhere on the web and voila! Hit the command and jaws turns or converts it or turns it into mathML content that is viewable and you can interact with in a jaws virtual cursor window! Try it out!

The link is:

 

 

https://tseykovets.ru/download/jaws/nvMathViewer.zip

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


Re: Thunder Thinks This Is Spam

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

On Thu, Sep 17, 2020 at 08:07 AM, Ann Parsons wrote:
How can we help if the message doesn't give the information that is needed?
-
Uh, by checking the online message archive?  Occasional burps will happen in e-mail, but every bit of these exchanges can be found here:
https://techtalk.groups.io/g/main/topics 

And that would include if someone sent a blank message (which has happened more than once in my time on various groups).  Accidents will happen.

 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.

        ~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com


NV Math Viewer

Mike B
 

Hi All,
 
Someone posted a URL for the nvMath Viewer for NVDA & Jaws the other day.  Would someone please repost the URL?  Thanks much.

Take care.  Mike.  Sent from my iBarstool.  Go dodgers!


Re: A puzzling behavior in an IMAP account

Blaster
 

Hmm, Since IMAP allows multiple devices to access and control one
e-mail account, Is it possible that Live Mail is downloading e-mail
from Thunderbird? Did Live mail download any e-mails that you
previously deleted with Thunderbird? If so, that is a concern.

On 9/17/20, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
I just started playing around with my Gmail account set up as IMAP in one
e-mail program, the latest version of Thunderbird portable. I have it set
to delete messages from the inbox when I delete messages from my computer
and, as far as I can see, from the GMail inbox. But when I run another
e-mail program, Windows Live Mail, the messages download there even though
the GMail web interface shows the inbox to be empty. So where is GMail
downloading the messages from?

Gene







Re: A puzzling behavior in an IMAP account

Mike B
 

Doesn't Gmail store copies of messages in the Trash folder for 30 days?  If so, maybe that's the source.

Take care.  Mike.  Sent from my iBarstool.  Go dodgers!

----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2020 5:07 AM
Subject: [TechTalk] A puzzling behavior in an IMAP account

I just started playing around with my Gmail account set up as IMAP in one
e-mail program, the latest version of Thunderbird portable.  I have it set
to delete messages from the inbox when I delete messages from my computer
and, as far as I can see, from the GMail inbox.  But when I run another
e-mail program, Windows Live Mail, the messages download there even though
the GMail web interface shows the inbox to be empty.  So where is GMail
downloading the messages from?

Gene






Re: Faxing questions

Blaster
 

Kathy, I know exactly how you feel. I was the primary care giver for
my mother and needed to submit all kinds of documents to the state and
county in regards to eligibility for particular Altzheimer's programs
and they said they couldn't or wouldn't accept e-mail or standard
mail, just faxes. I tried a few online services with little luck as
far as accessibility is concerned until I found this website:

www.gotfreefax.com

Ironically, The free version never worked, lol. The paid version
worked like a charm! For .98 cents you can send 10 pages and if you
don't use them all, they don't expire. I needed to resend a yearly
report to the state and when I went back to the website and logged in,
it remembered how many credits I had left on my account and I was able
to send those faxes at no additional charge. There's no templates for
a cover page, it's just a text box where you can put in any
information about who you are, who's attention is required and what
information is in your fax. You can attach any scanned image without
having to convert it to grey scale, it does that automatically. After
you send the fax you can actually wait for a confirmation message that
let's you know that the fax was received and it has a time stamp. It
will also send you an e-mail with this information. I do agree with
Brian, why in the world in this day and age are we using this old
tech? Anyway, If you do use this service and have any questions I'd
be happy to help if I can.

Kind regards,
Blaster

On 9/16/20, Brian Vogel <@britechguy> wrote:
Kathy,

I'll answer your last question first. Most word processors have a built in
template for a FAX Cover Sheet. There are scads of them in MS-Word, the
simplest one of which is "Fax cover sheet (standard format)." But in all
cases most contain a table with labels for the things you enter. It's
pretty straightforward. A cover sheet really only needs to contain your
name and contact information, the name and contact information for the
person/department to whom the FAX is being sent, and after that any "special
instructions" for the recipient if that's applicable.

One can encrypt a file (which will password protect it) and it is safe to
send via e-mail, as only the recipient will be provided with the password,
and that is done in an e-mail message that is separate from the one in which
the file is being sent, so if one or the other message were intercepted the
two pieces necessary for getting at the information are not available.

Many companies, and virtually all medical offices, now have what are called
client or patient portals, where you log in via the web and the whole
interaction is going on in an encrypted session, so all kinds of sensitive
information can be safely exchanged.

I've actually sent things like scans of my driver's license and similar
unencrypted in the past because the actual probability of any given email
message being intercepted is quite low, but there is definitely a risk
involved in doing so, but one I was willing to accept.

I just don't understand why the FAX has not died the death it so justly
deserves after all these years.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

*Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely
fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.*

~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com






Re: Thunder Thinks This Is Spam

Gene
 

I don't know why your program didn't see a message body.  But there was a message and I responded to it.  Maybe the program you are using is old enough that at times, texts of messages isn't displayed.  At times, when I was using an old e-mail program in recent years, I would get a message and I had to find and open the embedded attachment.  But your program may not see such attachments.


Gene

On 9/17/2020 7:07 AM, Ann Parsons wrote:
Hi all,

<sigh> The original poster sent a message that said, and I quote:  "[TechTalk] Thunder Thinks This Is Spam".  There was nothing in the email, no quoted text, no copy of the message, nothing.  How can we help if the message doesn't give the information that is needed?

Ann P.


Original message:
You didn't leave the message underneath that you are questioning, so we
don't know what you are talking about.  Pam.
-----Original Message-----
From: Ann Parsons
Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2020 3:37 PM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Thunder Thinks This Is Spam
Hi all,
What has?  There's nothing that makes sense here.
Ann P.
--
Ann K. Parsons
Portal Tutoring
EMAIL:  akp@...
Author of The Demmies: http://www.dldbooks.com/annparsons/
Portal Tutoring web site:  http://www.portaltutoring.info
Skype: Putertutor
"All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost."



--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com



Re: Thunder Thinks This Is Spam

Ann Parsons
 

Hi all,

<sigh> The original poster sent a message that said, and I quote: "[TechTalk] Thunder Thinks This Is Spam". There was nothing in the email, no quoted text, no copy of the message, nothing. How can we help if the message doesn't give the information that is needed?

Ann P.


Original message:

You didn't leave the message underneath that you are questioning, so we
don't know what you are talking about. Pam.
-----Original Message-----
From: Ann Parsons
Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2020 3:37 PM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Thunder Thinks This Is Spam
Hi all,
What has? There's nothing that makes sense here.
Ann P.
--
Ann K. Parsons
Portal Tutoring
EMAIL: akp@...
Author of The Demmies: http://www.dldbooks.com/annparsons/
Portal Tutoring web site: http://www.portaltutoring.info
Skype: Putertutor
"All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost."



--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com


--
Ann K. Parsons
Portal Tutoring
EMAIL: akp@...
Author of The Demmies: http://www.dldbooks.com/annparsons/
Portal Tutoring web site: http://www.portaltutoring.info
Skype: Putertutor

"All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost."