Date   

Re: This Week's ClubHouse TownHall Wrap-up

Marco Curralejo
 

Hello everyone,

 

Welcome to this bonus Blind Tech Guys episode, featuring all that went on at the latest ClubHouse TownHall. We trust you will enjoy this episode. As always, we thank you for your support and for being a part of the community.

 

On this week's first bonus episode, Marco sat down and updated us all on what happened at the latest ClubHouse TownHall event.

 

To listen to the show, head on over to the Blind Tech Guys Website, where you can easily subscribe and listen in your preferred podcast player, or you can simply ask your smart speaker to "play the latest episode of the Blind Tech Guys podcast".

 

Warm regards,

 

Marco Curralejo

 


Re: decided to buy a new desktop

enes sarıbaş
 

See though for someone on a budget this new AMD systemv is good specs.

https://www.theverge.com/22538867/asus-zenbook-13-oled-review-amd-ryzen-specs-features-price

On 6/20/2021 10:48 PM, John Holcomb II wrote:

A Refurb might get you something better at the 500  price point.

I remember posting something here the other day that actually was 256SSD , 16GB of ram,  and Core I5 but forget which chip it was now.

eBay can be your friend too 😊

 

So lol, I think we more or less agree after all of this.

Thing is if you take a look at it and think $900 now  get more value than if you bought a  laptop for $500 and a second one for $400.

And you can add two  year or more warrantee onto that but that shoots your price tag  up of that refurb unit, and if you  are gonna spend that money on the  insurance anyway, might as well just  put it toward  a better machine.

But you know other than  processor and ram and that, people get better keyboards for the higher price point too.

John

 

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of enes saribas
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 11:06 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

I didn't factor deals or mass sales like black Friday into the pricepoint. I had internded to say a machine costing arounnd 800-900  normally would be a good product. But instead of buying a laptop with an outdated chip, if 500 is really only one would spend, it would make sense to be used rather than that.

On 6/20/2021 8:57 PM, John Holcomb II wrote:

Oh yeah true I didn’t think of that. And I honestly forgot until you pointed it out.

I’m actually  surprised they have a laptop released this year with a processor that old.

But again. Its below $600 which is really all some can spend.

But in looking around if you can spend 8 or 900, you’re really a lot better off if you ask me.

Having said that, your $800 or $900 really can be knocked down quite a bit if you go to a site like Dell or HP and configure it yourself.

Lenovo frequently has sails so you never pay list price.

Also look at prime day which is coming up.

There are deals to be had.

Sites like The  Verge, Digital Trends, PCMag, LaptopMag, etc. have entire sections devoted to deals on laptops too.

John

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of enes saribas
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 9:45 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

Hi John,

The issue with thhis one is it has an AMD 3400 U processor. This processor is two generatyions behind. Though the 5000 series didn't bring a massive improvement, the 4000 generation sure did, and that was when AMD doubled core counts at higher segment among other things. I actually stuck with the underpowered Haswell laptop for another year to get a 4000 series instead of a 3000 for the extra performance, which is about 120% more.

On 6/20/2021 8:19 PM, John Holcomb II wrote:

Refurb is  not a bad way to go, in my opinion.

 

But if you don’t go refurb, here’s the cheapest one I I’d get new, from Best Buy.

Just by the specs, don’t believe the SSD is replaceable but the RAM is.

You can easily change this from Windows 10  in S mode to regular windows 10.

Dell Inspiron 15.6" FHD Touch Laptop -AMD Ryzen 5 8GB RAM 256 GB SSD Black i3505-A542BLK-PUS - Best Buy

 

John

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 9:07 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

I really doubt that a typical user needs to spend over 600 dollars for a laptop, and when you consider sales or manufacturer refurbished machines, that makes me even more skeptical.  Even if I am wrong about new laptops, I expect you can get a 700 dollar value or perhaps a little more by buying machines on good sale or a manufacturer refurbished machine. 

 

Also, this review is about fifteen months old.  You will see passages where it is stated that something isn’t as much the case any more.  If such things were changing then, there may be significantly more change now.

Here are two examples:

Regarding batteries:

Note that this is changing, though: in the past, we rarely found a laptop under $730 that offers more than six hours of real-world battery life. Now, some budget laptops can last you a full day.

And that was about sixteen months ago.

Regarding processors:

There was a time when budget laptops were universally equipped with low-cost Pentium and Celeron CPUs with at most dual-core designs. That’s not as true today, with many budget laptops utilizing Intel Core CPUs and AMD Ryzen 3000 quad, and even six-core CPUs in some cases. A modern 10th-gen Intel CPU, like that in the Acer Swift 3, for example, provides excellent performance across the board in both single-threaded and multi-threaded tasks.

Even so, you’re much more likely to get a faster quad-core (or even six- or eight-core) CPU by spending a few hundred dollars more. I’ll let those with much more technical knowledge than I have discuss this passage, but here again, if this was the case sixteen months ago, who knows what the case is now.

And regarding SSD drives, at what price point do they start in laptops?  it has been stated that most laptops have them now. 

 

 

Gene

 

Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 7:47 PM

Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

I am saying your price range of 600-700 for desktops is ok, but laptops the same level of quality on the unit goes for 800-100 or so as stated in the articles. As they are portable, you get less performance per dollar.

On 6/20/2021 7:45 PM, Gene wrote:

I’m not advocating using very slow computers. I don’t know about various processors and other technical matters in terms of acceptable speed.  But I’m writing about this because you may be giving people a really exaggerated sense of slowness at a price range where slowness wouldn’t be a problem.  What price computer are you talking about where a browser might take fifteen seconds to open?  Even on my laptop, eleven years old and moderately priced for its time, I can open browsers in something like three or four seconds.  I don’t have them go to a home page, which speeds up opening but if I had to wait fifteen secondes for a browser to open, I’d be very unhappy. 

 

And this is with a computer with a mechanical hard drive whereas it has been stated that most laptops now have SSD drives.  And considering that what you would get now for the same amount of money as eleven years ago would be faster and more powerful than what I got then, I think it is important to know what sorts of machines you are talking about, moderately priced machines, bottom of the line budget machines or something else? 

 

Gene

-----Original message-----

Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 7:18 PM

Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

That isn't correct though. 99% of people will feel speed matters. There is a poiunt where things are overkill, but an i7 or unllocked processor isn't where it begins. Look at it this way. If you open and close browsers each time, and it takes 15 seconds instead of less than 1, and you did this several dozen times a day, that is minutes off of your life you could be doing something better than sitting in front of youtr screen. And your processor isn't overpowered iether. If I recall that is only 4 core, rather underpowered compared to today's processors. Amd laptop processors easily exceed skylake desktop processor performance these days, and 10 will make your system more responsive, especially since the processor security patches don't mess up your SSD performance as much.

On 6/20/2021 12:24 PM, John Holcomb II wrote:

You have a point that Geen should if he has the money to do so, but consider Geen’s points if you will for a second.

What if Geen doesn’t have a job where that extra 30 seconds matters to him or his company?

What if  he has the money but would rather spend it on an experience doing something not tech related?

What if he doesn’t havce the money at all?

I’ve noticed that many people suggest what is good and isn’t, but not everybody wants to spend that money even if they have it.

There’s a point where things are indeed overkill.

Yes screen readers  do take up more resources but all facts do need to be considered.

I mean look at me, I have got all of this power and if nothing will ever use it why should I  ever bother again?

 

John

 

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io On Behalf Of enes saribas
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 10:39 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

You do need and should get one if you have the disposable income to get one. There is definately many important performance improvements that have a quality of life impact. It makes all the difference in the world whetehr a file compresses iin 5 minutes versus 4 houtrrs, or whether word loads in 30 seconds or less than 1.

On 6/19/2021 5:08 PM, Gene wrote:

I’m not sure what you are saying.  I’m saying that I had no problem with heat using old machines going back to the nineties.  And I don’t know what you mean by the most basic of computer tasks.  I used machines from the early 2000’s to browse, stream, including from Youtube, record audio, word process, and copy backups to external drives.  My laptop is about eleven years old.  Even if my apartment is warm, eighty or eighty-five degrees, I have absolutely no trouble with heat doing the things I discuss, nor do I have problems with the other much older machines I have.  My fans do not race. 

 

I hope others enter into this conversation.  You just do not need a nine-hundred dollar machine if you are a typical computer user, though you seem, as I understand what you are saying, to be advocating that.

 

Gene

-----Original message-----

 

 

Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2021 4:04 PM

Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

Likewise, your experiences, or lack there of of heat doesn't represent everyone with older machines. It is well established that very old processors are underpowered for anything but the most basic of computing tasks, and generate tremendous amounts of heat. You would need to compare it to a brand new high powered laptop to really feel the difference.

On 6/19/2021 1:35 PM, Gene wrote:

I have never had a problem with heat and, though I don’t discount your experience, it cannot be assumed to be representative.  My laptop, an eleven year old machine, seldom has its fan run at anything but a slow speed and that is when I do most things I do, including streaming videos from Youtube. 

 

I have another old, by today’s standards very underpowered machine that runs XP.  I never had a heat problem and I would use it for Youtube.  I should also add that I have another old machine that runs XP and it too never had such a problem.  One person’s experience is not valid for generalization when discussing computer problems and performance.

 

If other people report similar experiences, I would take that into account but nothing in my experience supports your experience.

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2021 1:05 PM

Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

not only that, but heat generation too. My old Toshiba on dual core Haswell i5 would have fans scream even when watching youtube. But my Ryzen fifth gen is a much higher wattage part, but barely produces any heat, even under full load it isn't very bad. And more apps take advantage of multicore. Browsers for one, file encoders and compression tools, OCR software. But the number of things that take advantage will only grow as time passes. And right now fifth gen Ryzen surpasses Intel in even  in single core, and Intel is severely behind, on the desktop they backported a 10 nm  process to 14 nm, making rocket lake, dropping the number of cores on the 1900K by 2 to 8 from the 10 on the 10900K. If you read rocket lake i7 reviews, they are easily the worst processor reviews I have read ever.

On 6/19/2021 10:52 AM, John Holcomb II wrote:

 

Intel is still on the 14NM  process.

This moving to a smaller die size will help with power savings. AMD is killing it right now.

I’m not sure how many apps take advantage of multi-core though?

John

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io On Behalf Of enes saribas
Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2021 12:22 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

They also use newer processor technology, 7 nanometer vs 14 nanometer for Intel, don't have as many hardware side channel vulnerabilities, and also generate less heat for the same performance thanks to the newer processor technologies. They have substantially better multicore core performance as well.

On 6/18/2021 4:57 PM, John Holcomb II wrote:

M.2 SSDs will be on anything but the bottom of the crop when it comes to desktops.

Same with hyper threading.

But here’s another thought to consider.

For single core performance, AMD is  worth a look. They have something similar to hyper threading which I forget what its called now.

John

 

He’s right and I forgot about that.

Sent: Friday, June 18, 2021 5:46 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

I am not a tech but I doubt you have to worry about the case.  You seem to be worried that the problems you have with your computer are caused by heat.  there is no reason for that assumption. 

 

As has been asked, how do you intend to use your computer?  I know little about M2 slots but whether you have one may not matter to any extent depending on how you intend to use it.  My impression is that they are common on computers now but I am just stating an impression and I hope others discuss the question. 

 

I would imagine that other things you are worried about, hyperthreading, for example, are so standard in machines that are not bottom of the line that you probably don’t have to worry about whether a machine uyou buy has that ability.  I would imagine it is present in any machine that isn’t a bottom of the line budget machine.

 

As has been asked, how do you intend to use the machine?  I’ll ask further if you anticipate your uses changing to any significant extent over time.  After we know how you intend to use your machine, people can discuss such matters as price, power of machine, etc.  I think those questions of use are by far the most important in people advising you.

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Friday, June 18, 2021 3:59 PM

Subject: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

Well, I guess I am coming in to this decade I am finally going to upgrade my desktop after 7 or 8 years.  So do I have to tell them I want an  m2 slot or is there another term?  I ran the Belarc adviser and it said I did not have  hiper threaded with my cores. I read up that the hiper threaded makes them faster for the PC.  Everything else was intergraded on the mother board, sound, internet card, graphics card and  memory. It was all intel integrated. The first thing to go out on this machine was the sound about 1.5 years ago. I am wired in to the modem as the wireless is not that great .I have to use a USB cord to get my printer to print too. So I am not sure what went out that these do not work anymore unless I do it threw a cable. I know the Bluetooth still works as my keyboard and mouse still work with the dongle. Monitor port does not work but I just switched to a  USB monitor. I was just wondering if I can get a tower  casing that vents heat more evenly. Or are the tower cases different these days. Thanks everybody.

Heather

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


Re: decided to buy a new desktop

John Holcomb II
 

Um your sister using that, that wasn’t a good idea either.
My I3 that I tried I just got tired of the slowness with the thing.
You’d go to  hit the delete key in outlook and the thing would take like 2 seconds to start talking.
Yeah um, no. 
But the people that were asking about this kinda thing  aren’t power users.
And yeah I agree with you if you have the money, get better specs.
John


Sent from my iPod

On Jun 21, 2021, at 5:17 AM, enes sarıbaş <enes.saribas@...> wrote:



Well, I guess so. But this is for regular users. A power user will likely want that 32 gb of ram, i9 or  r9/r7 processor, higher SSD,  etc. This was my point. It makes sense to spend more, get a quality machine, and  use it longer. I had the i3 laptop satallite l655. Less than a year out, the speakers popped, the keyboard started failing, and the DVD drive failed as well. Another 2 years later, the fans failed, iether the ram or HDD failed so the machine was unbarably slow for a reason I couldn't figure out, and it lost the ability to cool where a burning smell would come out. And my sister kept usint it despite the burning smell, then the keyboard failed again. I told my dad it wasn't worth the trouble to fix.

On 6/20/2021 10:48 PM, John Holcomb II wrote:

A Refurb might get you something better at the 500  price point.

I remember posting something here the other day that actually was 256SSD , 16GB of ram,  and Core I5 but forget which chip it was now.

eBay can be your friend too 😊

 

So lol, I think we more or less agree after all of this.

Thing is if you take a look at it and think $900 now  get more value than if you bought a  laptop for $500 and a second one for $400.

And you can add two  year or more warrantee onto that but that shoots your price tag  up of that refurb unit, and if you  are gonna spend that money on the  insurance anyway, might as well just  put it toward  a better machine.

But you know other than  processor and ram and that, people get better keyboards for the higher price point too.

John

 

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of enes saribas
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 11:06 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

I didn't factor deals or mass sales like black Friday into the pricepoint. I had internded to say a machine costing arounnd 800-900  normally would be a good product. But instead of buying a laptop with an outdated chip, if 500 is really only one would spend, it would make sense to be used rather than that.

On 6/20/2021 8:57 PM, John Holcomb II wrote:

Oh yeah true I didn’t think of that. And I honestly forgot until you pointed it out.

I’m actually  surprised they have a laptop released this year with a processor that old.

But again. Its below $600 which is really all some can spend.

But in looking around if you can spend 8 or 900, you’re really a lot better off if you ask me.

Having said that, your $800 or $900 really can be knocked down quite a bit if you go to a site like Dell or HP and configure it yourself.

Lenovo frequently has sails so you never pay list price.

Also look at prime day which is coming up.

There are deals to be had.

Sites like The  Verge, Digital Trends, PCMag, LaptopMag, etc. have entire sections devoted to deals on laptops too.

John

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of enes saribas
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 9:45 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

Hi John,

The issue with thhis one is it has an AMD 3400 U processor. This processor is two generatyions behind. Though the 5000 series didn't bring a massive improvement, the 4000 generation sure did, and that was when AMD doubled core counts at higher segment among other things. I actually stuck with the underpowered Haswell laptop for another year to get a 4000 series instead of a 3000 for the extra performance, which is about 120% more.

On 6/20/2021 8:19 PM, John Holcomb II wrote:

Refurb is  not a bad way to go, in my opinion.

 

But if you don’t go refurb, here’s the cheapest one I I’d get new, from Best Buy.

Just by the specs, don’t believe the SSD is replaceable but the RAM is.

You can easily change this from Windows 10  in S mode to regular windows 10.

Dell Inspiron 15.6" FHD Touch Laptop -AMD Ryzen 5 8GB RAM 256 GB SSD Black i3505-A542BLK-PUS - Best Buy

 

John

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 9:07 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

I really doubt that a typical user needs to spend over 600 dollars for a laptop, and when you consider sales or manufacturer refurbished machines, that makes me even more skeptical.  Even if I am wrong about new laptops, I expect you can get a 700 dollar value or perhaps a little more by buying machines on good sale or a manufacturer refurbished machine. 

 

Also, this review is about fifteen months old.  You will see passages where it is stated that something isn’t as much the case any more.  If such things were changing then, there may be significantly more change now.

Here are two examples:

Regarding batteries:

Note that this is changing, though: in the past, we rarely found a laptop under $730 that offers more than six hours of real-world battery life. Now, some budget laptops can last you a full day.

And that was about sixteen months ago.

Regarding processors:

There was a time when budget laptops were universally equipped with low-cost Pentium and Celeron CPUs with at most dual-core designs. That’s not as true today, with many budget laptops utilizing Intel Core CPUs and AMD Ryzen 3000 quad, and even six-core CPUs in some cases. A modern 10th-gen Intel CPU, like that in the Acer Swift 3, for example, provides excellent performance across the board in both single-threaded and multi-threaded tasks.

Even so, you’re much more likely to get a faster quad-core (or even six- or eight-core) CPU by spending a few hundred dollars more. I’ll let those with much more technical knowledge than I have discuss this passage, but here again, if this was the case sixteen months ago, who knows what the case is now.

And regarding SSD drives, at what price point do they start in laptops?  it has been stated that most laptops have them now. 

 

 

Gene

 

Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 7:47 PM

Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

I am saying your price range of 600-700 for desktops is ok, but laptops the same level of quality on the unit goes for 800-100 or so as stated in the articles. As they are portable, you get less performance per dollar.

On 6/20/2021 7:45 PM, Gene wrote:

I’m not advocating using very slow computers. I don’t know about various processors and other technical matters in terms of acceptable speed.  But I’m writing about this because you may be giving people a really exaggerated sense of slowness at a price range where slowness wouldn’t be a problem.  What price computer are you talking about where a browser might take fifteen seconds to open?  Even on my laptop, eleven years old and moderately priced for its time, I can open browsers in something like three or four seconds.  I don’t have them go to a home page, which speeds up opening but if I had to wait fifteen secondes for a browser to open, I’d be very unhappy. 

 

And this is with a computer with a mechanical hard drive whereas it has been stated that most laptops now have SSD drives.  And considering that what you would get now for the same amount of money as eleven years ago would be faster and more powerful than what I got then, I think it is important to know what sorts of machines you are talking about, moderately priced machines, bottom of the line budget machines or something else? 

 

Gene

-----Original message-----

Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 7:18 PM

Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

That isn't correct though. 99% of people will feel speed matters. There is a poiunt where things are overkill, but an i7 or unllocked processor isn't where it begins. Look at it this way. If you open and close browsers each time, and it takes 15 seconds instead of less than 1, and you did this several dozen times a day, that is minutes off of your life you could be doing something better than sitting in front of youtr screen. And your processor isn't overpowered iether. If I recall that is only 4 core, rather underpowered compared to today's processors. Amd laptop processors easily exceed skylake desktop processor performance these days, and 10 will make your system more responsive, especially since the processor security patches don't mess up your SSD performance as much.

On 6/20/2021 12:24 PM, John Holcomb II wrote:

You have a point that Geen should if he has the money to do so, but consider Geen’s points if you will for a second.

What if Geen doesn’t have a job where that extra 30 seconds matters to him or his company?

What if  he has the money but would rather spend it on an experience doing something not tech related?

What if he doesn’t havce the money at all?

I’ve noticed that many people suggest what is good and isn’t, but not everybody wants to spend that money even if they have it.

There’s a point where things are indeed overkill.

Yes screen readers  do take up more resources but all facts do need to be considered.

I mean look at me, I have got all of this power and if nothing will ever use it why should I  ever bother again?

 

John

 

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io On Behalf Of enes saribas
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 10:39 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

You do need and should get one if you have the disposable income to get one. There is definately many important performance improvements that have a quality of life impact. It makes all the difference in the world whetehr a file compresses iin 5 minutes versus 4 houtrrs, or whether word loads in 30 seconds or less than 1.

On 6/19/2021 5:08 PM, Gene wrote:

I’m not sure what you are saying.  I’m saying that I had no problem with heat using old machines going back to the nineties.  And I don’t know what you mean by the most basic of computer tasks.  I used machines from the early 2000’s to browse, stream, including from Youtube, record audio, word process, and copy backups to external drives.  My laptop is about eleven years old.  Even if my apartment is warm, eighty or eighty-five degrees, I have absolutely no trouble with heat doing the things I discuss, nor do I have problems with the other much older machines I have.  My fans do not race. 

 

I hope others enter into this conversation.  You just do not need a nine-hundred dollar machine if you are a typical computer user, though you seem, as I understand what you are saying, to be advocating that.

 

Gene

-----Original message-----

 

 

Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2021 4:04 PM

Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

Likewise, your experiences, or lack there of of heat doesn't represent everyone with older machines. It is well established that very old processors are underpowered for anything but the most basic of computing tasks, and generate tremendous amounts of heat. You would need to compare it to a brand new high powered laptop to really feel the difference.

On 6/19/2021 1:35 PM, Gene wrote:

I have never had a problem with heat and, though I don’t discount your experience, it cannot be assumed to be representative.  My laptop, an eleven year old machine, seldom has its fan run at anything but a slow speed and that is when I do most things I do, including streaming videos from Youtube. 

 

I have another old, by today’s standards very underpowered machine that runs XP.  I never had a heat problem and I would use it for Youtube.  I should also add that I have another old machine that runs XP and it too never had such a problem.  One person’s experience is not valid for generalization when discussing computer problems and performance.

 

If other people report similar experiences, I would take that into account but nothing in my experience supports your experience.

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2021 1:05 PM

Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

not only that, but heat generation too. My old Toshiba on dual core Haswell i5 would have fans scream even when watching youtube. But my Ryzen fifth gen is a much higher wattage part, but barely produces any heat, even under full load it isn't very bad. And more apps take advantage of multicore. Browsers for one, file encoders and compression tools, OCR software. But the number of things that take advantage will only grow as time passes. And right now fifth gen Ryzen surpasses Intel in even  in single core, and Intel is severely behind, on the desktop they backported a 10 nm  process to 14 nm, making rocket lake, dropping the number of cores on the 1900K by 2 to 8 from the 10 on the 10900K. If you read rocket lake i7 reviews, they are easily the worst processor reviews I have read ever.

On 6/19/2021 10:52 AM, John Holcomb II wrote:

 

Intel is still on the 14NM  process.

This moving to a smaller die size will help with power savings. AMD is killing it right now.

I’m not sure how many apps take advantage of multi-core though?

John

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io On Behalf Of enes saribas
Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2021 12:22 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

They also use newer processor technology, 7 nanometer vs 14 nanometer for Intel, don't have as many hardware side channel vulnerabilities, and also generate less heat for the same performance thanks to the newer processor technologies. They have substantially better multicore core performance as well.

On 6/18/2021 4:57 PM, John Holcomb II wrote:

M.2 SSDs will be on anything but the bottom of the crop when it comes to desktops.

Same with hyper threading.

But here’s another thought to consider.

For single core performance, AMD is  worth a look. They have something similar to hyper threading which I forget what its called now.

John

 

He’s right and I forgot about that.

Sent: Friday, June 18, 2021 5:46 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

I am not a tech but I doubt you have to worry about the case.  You seem to be worried that the problems you have with your computer are caused by heat.  there is no reason for that assumption. 

 

As has been asked, how do you intend to use your computer?  I know little about M2 slots but whether you have one may not matter to any extent depending on how you intend to use it.  My impression is that they are common on computers now but I am just stating an impression and I hope others discuss the question. 

 

I would imagine that other things you are worried about, hyperthreading, for example, are so standard in machines that are not bottom of the line that you probably don’t have to worry about whether a machine uyou buy has that ability.  I would imagine it is present in any machine that isn’t a bottom of the line budget machine.

 

As has been asked, how do you intend to use the machine?  I’ll ask further if you anticipate your uses changing to any significant extent over time.  After we know how you intend to use your machine, people can discuss such matters as price, power of machine, etc.  I think those questions of use are by far the most important in people advising you.

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Friday, June 18, 2021 3:59 PM

Subject: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

Well, I guess I am coming in to this decade I am finally going to upgrade my desktop after 7 or 8 years.  So do I have to tell them I want an  m2 slot or is there another term?  I ran the Belarc adviser and it said I did not have  hiper threaded with my cores. I read up that the hiper threaded makes them faster for the PC.  Everything else was intergraded on the mother board, sound, internet card, graphics card and  memory. It was all intel integrated. The first thing to go out on this machine was the sound about 1.5 years ago. I am wired in to the modem as the wireless is not that great .I have to use a USB cord to get my printer to print too. So I am not sure what went out that these do not work anymore unless I do it threw a cable. I know the Bluetooth still works as my keyboard and mouse still work with the dongle. Monitor port does not work but I just switched to a  USB monitor. I was just wondering if I can get a tower  casing that vents heat more evenly. Or are the tower cases different these days. Thanks everybody.

Heather

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


Re: decided to buy a new desktop

Loy
 


My two desktops were under $500.00 from Dell. One is about 4 years old. With a 3.2 GB  dual core. 8GB memory. The other is two years old a 2.8 up to 4 GB 6 core with 8 GB RAM. and have been more than adequate for my uses. I listen to online videos, word processing with MS 365, and Internet Browsing. I don't do video editing or computer games. Use JAWS and NVDA. They are very fast.

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 9:09 PM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

Again, 400 is an inadequate price point for a desktop. A good processor alone would  cost nearly that much. Not to mention motherboard, power supply. This would be solidly budget machine built with budget components.
On 6/20/2021 7:48 PM, Gene wrote:
I don’t have the technical knowledge to compare, but my impression has been that desktops, as you say, are cheaper for the same performance.  But if your ratio is more or less correct, then I would think that something like a 400 dollar desktop or a roughly six hundred dollar laptop would both serve typical users well. 
 
Gene
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 7:14 PM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop
 
Gene remember though the pricepoints for desktops and laptops are totally different. A 600-700 machine for a desktop is around 900 or more for a laptop to achieve a similar level of performance. And desktops are indeed more durable, even more so for quality components. You can literally swap out the motherboard and processor if it gets too slow.
On 6/20/2021 1:00 PM, Gene wrote:
If you are saying that if you have all sorts of power so your machine isn’t working as hard and will last longer, I consider that very questionable.  Perhaps with an underpowered machine the machine working harder and producing more heat might shorten its life, but I doubt that having too much power would cause a machine to last longer.  And then, there is the cost.  If I spend six or seven hundred dollars for a machine and I use it seven or eight years, then I buy another one, if I want the same rough amount of power, it will cost less, perhaps much less.  I may be paying for two machines of the power I will be using in order to try to make one machine last longer.
 
Gene
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 12:19 PM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop
 

Why not?

I have al of this power. What is the point if nothing will use it ?

I’d like to think because I have all of this power and can do all of these cores and  threading, that it’d run longer with things taking advantage of this.

John

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io On Behalf Of enes saribas
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 8:47 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

Hi,

That is still a good machine I would think. A friend has a similar processor, the i7 6700 K if I remember right, and he said it is still mostly fast. And no unfortunately screen readers don't take advantage of multicore, and probably never will according to discussion on the NVDA group.

On 6/19/2021 4:43 PM, John Holcomb II wrote:

Yeah… When I bought this in 2017 AMD wasn’t in the game yet or I wouldn’t have bought this.

Do  our screen readers and Windows take advantage of multi-core processors yet I wonder?

Mine is overkill I know, but I’ll probably keep it until it becomes too slow.

Whitebox

3.75 gigahertz Intel Core i7-6950X

ASUSTeK COMPUTER INC. SABERTOOTH X99 Rev 1.xx

64GB DDR4 ram.

I forget which ram I put in here.

I plan to put an M.2 SSD in here next and upgrade to I guess it’ll be Windows 11? As right now I’m on a spinning Western Digital Red on Windows 7.

This will be much better when I put an M.2 in here I’m sure!

The graphics is a Nvidia GForce 210

John

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io On Behalf Of enes saribas
Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2021 2:05 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

not only that, but heat generation too. My old Toshiba on dual core Haswell i5 would have fans scream even when watching youtube. But my Ryzen fifth gen is a much higher wattage part, but barely produces any heat, even under full load it isn't very bad. And more apps take advantage of multicore. Browsers for one, file encoders and compression tools, OCR software. But the number of things that take advantage will only grow as time passes. And right now fifth gen Ryzen surpasses Intel in even  in single core, and Intel is severely behind, on the desktop they backported a 10 nm  process to 14 nm, making rocket lake, dropping the number of cores on the 1900K by 2 to 8 from the 10 on the 10900K. If you read rocket lake i7 reviews, they are easily the worst processor reviews I have read ever.

On 6/19/2021 10:52 AM, John Holcomb II wrote:

Intel is still on the 14NM  process.

This moving to a smaller die size will help with power savings. AMD is killing it right now.

I’m not sure how many apps take advantage of multi-core though?

John

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io On Behalf Of enes saribas
Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2021 12:22 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

They also use newer processor technology, 7 nanometer vs 14 nanometer for Intel, don't have as many hardware side channel vulnerabilities, and also generate less heat for the same performance thanks to the newer processor technologies. They have substantially better multicore core performance as well.

On 6/18/2021 4:57 PM, John Holcomb II wrote:

M.2 SSDs will be on anything but the bottom of the crop when it comes to desktops.

Same with hyper threading.

But here’s another thought to consider.

For single core performance, AMD is  worth a look. They have something similar to hyper threading which I forget what its called now.

John

He’s right and I forgot about that.

Sent: Friday, June 18, 2021 5:46 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

I am not a tech but I doubt you have to worry about the case.  You seem to be worried that the problems you have with your computer are caused by heat.  there is no reason for that assumption. 

As has been asked, how do you intend to use your computer?  I know little about M2 slots but whether you have one may not matter to any extent depending on how you intend to use it.  My impression is that they are common on computers now but I am just stating an impression and I hope others discuss the question. 

I would imagine that other things you are worried about, hyperthreading, for example, are so standard in machines that are not bottom of the line that you probably don’t have to worry about whether a machine uyou buy has that ability.  I would imagine it is present in any machine that isn’t a bottom of the line budget machine.

As has been asked, how do you intend to use the machine?  I’ll ask further if you anticipate your uses changing to any significant extent over time.  After we know how you intend to use your machine, people can discuss such matters as price, power of machine, etc.  I think those questions of use are by far the most important in people advising you.

Gene

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Friday, June 18, 2021 3:59 PM

Subject: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

Well, I guess I am coming in to this decade I am finally going to upgrade my desktop after 7 or 8 years.  So do I have to tell them I want an  m2 slot or is there another term?  I ran the Belarc adviser and it said I did not have  hiper threaded with my cores. I read up that the hiper threaded makes them faster for the PC.  Everything else was intergraded on the mother board, sound, internet card, graphics card and  memory. It was all intel integrated. The first thing to go out on this machine was the sound about 1.5 years ago. I am wired in to the modem as the wireless is not that great .I have to use a USB cord to get my printer to print too. So I am not sure what went out that these do not work anymore unless I do it threw a cable. I know the Bluetooth still works as my keyboard and mouse still work with the dongle. Monitor port does not work but I just switched to a  USB monitor. I was just wondering if I can get a tower  casing that vents heat more evenly. Or are the tower cases different these days. Thanks everybody.

Heather

Sent from Mail for Windows 10


Re: decided to buy a new desktop

enes sarıbaş
 

Well, I guess so. But this is for regular users. A power user will likely want that 32 gb of ram, i9 or  r9/r7 processor, higher SSD,  etc. This was my point. It makes sense to spend more, get a quality machine, and  use it longer. I had the i3 laptop satallite l655. Less than a year out, the speakers popped, the keyboard started failing, and the DVD drive failed as well. Another 2 years later, the fans failed, iether the ram or HDD failed so the machine was unbarably slow for a reason I couldn't figure out, and it lost the ability to cool where a burning smell would come out. And my sister kept usint it despite the burning smell, then the keyboard failed again. I told my dad it wasn't worth the trouble to fix.

On 6/20/2021 10:48 PM, John Holcomb II wrote:

A Refurb might get you something better at the 500  price point.

I remember posting something here the other day that actually was 256SSD , 16GB of ram,  and Core I5 but forget which chip it was now.

eBay can be your friend too 😊

 

So lol, I think we more or less agree after all of this.

Thing is if you take a look at it and think $900 now  get more value than if you bought a  laptop for $500 and a second one for $400.

And you can add two  year or more warrantee onto that but that shoots your price tag  up of that refurb unit, and if you  are gonna spend that money on the  insurance anyway, might as well just  put it toward  a better machine.

But you know other than  processor and ram and that, people get better keyboards for the higher price point too.

John

 

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of enes saribas
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 11:06 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

I didn't factor deals or mass sales like black Friday into the pricepoint. I had internded to say a machine costing arounnd 800-900  normally would be a good product. But instead of buying a laptop with an outdated chip, if 500 is really only one would spend, it would make sense to be used rather than that.

On 6/20/2021 8:57 PM, John Holcomb II wrote:

Oh yeah true I didn’t think of that. And I honestly forgot until you pointed it out.

I’m actually  surprised they have a laptop released this year with a processor that old.

But again. Its below $600 which is really all some can spend.

But in looking around if you can spend 8 or 900, you’re really a lot better off if you ask me.

Having said that, your $800 or $900 really can be knocked down quite a bit if you go to a site like Dell or HP and configure it yourself.

Lenovo frequently has sails so you never pay list price.

Also look at prime day which is coming up.

There are deals to be had.

Sites like The  Verge, Digital Trends, PCMag, LaptopMag, etc. have entire sections devoted to deals on laptops too.

John

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of enes saribas
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 9:45 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

Hi John,

The issue with thhis one is it has an AMD 3400 U processor. This processor is two generatyions behind. Though the 5000 series didn't bring a massive improvement, the 4000 generation sure did, and that was when AMD doubled core counts at higher segment among other things. I actually stuck with the underpowered Haswell laptop for another year to get a 4000 series instead of a 3000 for the extra performance, which is about 120% more.

On 6/20/2021 8:19 PM, John Holcomb II wrote:

Refurb is  not a bad way to go, in my opinion.

 

But if you don’t go refurb, here’s the cheapest one I I’d get new, from Best Buy.

Just by the specs, don’t believe the SSD is replaceable but the RAM is.

You can easily change this from Windows 10  in S mode to regular windows 10.

Dell Inspiron 15.6" FHD Touch Laptop -AMD Ryzen 5 8GB RAM 256 GB SSD Black i3505-A542BLK-PUS - Best Buy

 

John

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 9:07 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

I really doubt that a typical user needs to spend over 600 dollars for a laptop, and when you consider sales or manufacturer refurbished machines, that makes me even more skeptical.  Even if I am wrong about new laptops, I expect you can get a 700 dollar value or perhaps a little more by buying machines on good sale or a manufacturer refurbished machine. 

 

Also, this review is about fifteen months old.  You will see passages where it is stated that something isn’t as much the case any more.  If such things were changing then, there may be significantly more change now.

Here are two examples:

Regarding batteries:

Note that this is changing, though: in the past, we rarely found a laptop under $730 that offers more than six hours of real-world battery life. Now, some budget laptops can last you a full day.

And that was about sixteen months ago.

Regarding processors:

There was a time when budget laptops were universally equipped with low-cost Pentium and Celeron CPUs with at most dual-core designs. That’s not as true today, with many budget laptops utilizing Intel Core CPUs and AMD Ryzen 3000 quad, and even six-core CPUs in some cases. A modern 10th-gen Intel CPU, like that in the Acer Swift 3, for example, provides excellent performance across the board in both single-threaded and multi-threaded tasks.

Even so, you’re much more likely to get a faster quad-core (or even six- or eight-core) CPU by spending a few hundred dollars more. I’ll let those with much more technical knowledge than I have discuss this passage, but here again, if this was the case sixteen months ago, who knows what the case is now.

And regarding SSD drives, at what price point do they start in laptops?  it has been stated that most laptops have them now. 

 

 

Gene

 

Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 7:47 PM

Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

I am saying your price range of 600-700 for desktops is ok, but laptops the same level of quality on the unit goes for 800-100 or so as stated in the articles. As they are portable, you get less performance per dollar.

On 6/20/2021 7:45 PM, Gene wrote:

I’m not advocating using very slow computers. I don’t know about various processors and other technical matters in terms of acceptable speed.  But I’m writing about this because you may be giving people a really exaggerated sense of slowness at a price range where slowness wouldn’t be a problem.  What price computer are you talking about where a browser might take fifteen seconds to open?  Even on my laptop, eleven years old and moderately priced for its time, I can open browsers in something like three or four seconds.  I don’t have them go to a home page, which speeds up opening but if I had to wait fifteen secondes for a browser to open, I’d be very unhappy. 

 

And this is with a computer with a mechanical hard drive whereas it has been stated that most laptops now have SSD drives.  And considering that what you would get now for the same amount of money as eleven years ago would be faster and more powerful than what I got then, I think it is important to know what sorts of machines you are talking about, moderately priced machines, bottom of the line budget machines or something else? 

 

Gene

-----Original message-----

Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 7:18 PM

Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

That isn't correct though. 99% of people will feel speed matters. There is a poiunt where things are overkill, but an i7 or unllocked processor isn't where it begins. Look at it this way. If you open and close browsers each time, and it takes 15 seconds instead of less than 1, and you did this several dozen times a day, that is minutes off of your life you could be doing something better than sitting in front of youtr screen. And your processor isn't overpowered iether. If I recall that is only 4 core, rather underpowered compared to today's processors. Amd laptop processors easily exceed skylake desktop processor performance these days, and 10 will make your system more responsive, especially since the processor security patches don't mess up your SSD performance as much.

On 6/20/2021 12:24 PM, John Holcomb II wrote:

You have a point that Geen should if he has the money to do so, but consider Geen’s points if you will for a second.

What if Geen doesn’t have a job where that extra 30 seconds matters to him or his company?

What if  he has the money but would rather spend it on an experience doing something not tech related?

What if he doesn’t havce the money at all?

I’ve noticed that many people suggest what is good and isn’t, but not everybody wants to spend that money even if they have it.

There’s a point where things are indeed overkill.

Yes screen readers  do take up more resources but all facts do need to be considered.

I mean look at me, I have got all of this power and if nothing will ever use it why should I  ever bother again?

 

John

 

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io On Behalf Of enes saribas
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 10:39 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

You do need and should get one if you have the disposable income to get one. There is definately many important performance improvements that have a quality of life impact. It makes all the difference in the world whetehr a file compresses iin 5 minutes versus 4 houtrrs, or whether word loads in 30 seconds or less than 1.

On 6/19/2021 5:08 PM, Gene wrote:

I’m not sure what you are saying.  I’m saying that I had no problem with heat using old machines going back to the nineties.  And I don’t know what you mean by the most basic of computer tasks.  I used machines from the early 2000’s to browse, stream, including from Youtube, record audio, word process, and copy backups to external drives.  My laptop is about eleven years old.  Even if my apartment is warm, eighty or eighty-five degrees, I have absolutely no trouble with heat doing the things I discuss, nor do I have problems with the other much older machines I have.  My fans do not race. 

 

I hope others enter into this conversation.  You just do not need a nine-hundred dollar machine if you are a typical computer user, though you seem, as I understand what you are saying, to be advocating that.

 

Gene

-----Original message-----

 

 

Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2021 4:04 PM

Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

Likewise, your experiences, or lack there of of heat doesn't represent everyone with older machines. It is well established that very old processors are underpowered for anything but the most basic of computing tasks, and generate tremendous amounts of heat. You would need to compare it to a brand new high powered laptop to really feel the difference.

On 6/19/2021 1:35 PM, Gene wrote:

I have never had a problem with heat and, though I don’t discount your experience, it cannot be assumed to be representative.  My laptop, an eleven year old machine, seldom has its fan run at anything but a slow speed and that is when I do most things I do, including streaming videos from Youtube. 

 

I have another old, by today’s standards very underpowered machine that runs XP.  I never had a heat problem and I would use it for Youtube.  I should also add that I have another old machine that runs XP and it too never had such a problem.  One person’s experience is not valid for generalization when discussing computer problems and performance.

 

If other people report similar experiences, I would take that into account but nothing in my experience supports your experience.

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2021 1:05 PM

Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

not only that, but heat generation too. My old Toshiba on dual core Haswell i5 would have fans scream even when watching youtube. But my Ryzen fifth gen is a much higher wattage part, but barely produces any heat, even under full load it isn't very bad. And more apps take advantage of multicore. Browsers for one, file encoders and compression tools, OCR software. But the number of things that take advantage will only grow as time passes. And right now fifth gen Ryzen surpasses Intel in even  in single core, and Intel is severely behind, on the desktop they backported a 10 nm  process to 14 nm, making rocket lake, dropping the number of cores on the 1900K by 2 to 8 from the 10 on the 10900K. If you read rocket lake i7 reviews, they are easily the worst processor reviews I have read ever.

On 6/19/2021 10:52 AM, John Holcomb II wrote:

 

Intel is still on the 14NM  process.

This moving to a smaller die size will help with power savings. AMD is killing it right now.

I’m not sure how many apps take advantage of multi-core though?

John

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io On Behalf Of enes saribas
Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2021 12:22 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

They also use newer processor technology, 7 nanometer vs 14 nanometer for Intel, don't have as many hardware side channel vulnerabilities, and also generate less heat for the same performance thanks to the newer processor technologies. They have substantially better multicore core performance as well.

On 6/18/2021 4:57 PM, John Holcomb II wrote:

M.2 SSDs will be on anything but the bottom of the crop when it comes to desktops.

Same with hyper threading.

But here’s another thought to consider.

For single core performance, AMD is  worth a look. They have something similar to hyper threading which I forget what its called now.

John

 

He’s right and I forgot about that.

Sent: Friday, June 18, 2021 5:46 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

I am not a tech but I doubt you have to worry about the case.  You seem to be worried that the problems you have with your computer are caused by heat.  there is no reason for that assumption. 

 

As has been asked, how do you intend to use your computer?  I know little about M2 slots but whether you have one may not matter to any extent depending on how you intend to use it.  My impression is that they are common on computers now but I am just stating an impression and I hope others discuss the question. 

 

I would imagine that other things you are worried about, hyperthreading, for example, are so standard in machines that are not bottom of the line that you probably don’t have to worry about whether a machine uyou buy has that ability.  I would imagine it is present in any machine that isn’t a bottom of the line budget machine.

 

As has been asked, how do you intend to use the machine?  I’ll ask further if you anticipate your uses changing to any significant extent over time.  After we know how you intend to use your machine, people can discuss such matters as price, power of machine, etc.  I think those questions of use are by far the most important in people advising you.

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Friday, June 18, 2021 3:59 PM

Subject: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

Well, I guess I am coming in to this decade I am finally going to upgrade my desktop after 7 or 8 years.  So do I have to tell them I want an  m2 slot or is there another term?  I ran the Belarc adviser and it said I did not have  hiper threaded with my cores. I read up that the hiper threaded makes them faster for the PC.  Everything else was intergraded on the mother board, sound, internet card, graphics card and  memory. It was all intel integrated. The first thing to go out on this machine was the sound about 1.5 years ago. I am wired in to the modem as the wireless is not that great .I have to use a USB cord to get my printer to print too. So I am not sure what went out that these do not work anymore unless I do it threw a cable. I know the Bluetooth still works as my keyboard and mouse still work with the dongle. Monitor port does not work but I just switched to a  USB monitor. I was just wondering if I can get a tower  casing that vents heat more evenly. Or are the tower cases different these days. Thanks everybody.

Heather

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


Re: downloading purchased software from amazon.com?

Bharat
 

This below page answers your question. Apparently, you can download it
from Microsoft store. Once the app is downloaded you may activate it
using the supplied key. for more clarity refer to the below link:

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/office/what-s-the-difference-between-microsoft-365-and-office-2019-ed447ebf-6060-46f9-9e90-a239bd27eb96

& yes, if all else fails, please call up MS via BeMyEyes. They have
always been very helpful & kind.

Thank you,

bharat.

On 6/21/21, Troy Burnham <troyburnham34@gmail.com> wrote:
I went to microsoftstore.com, but it asks me to sign in with my account
info and I don't have a microsoft account.


Troy


On 6/20/2021 2:33 PM, Troy Burnham via groups.io wrote:
Sorry to sound so dumb but how do I get to the ms store on my computer
and then how do I find my purchase? I did notice that one of the
e-mails I received from amazon has a code in it so I have that.


Troy



On 6/20/2021 10:05 AM, Monte Single wrote:
Try looking for it in the m s store.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of
Bharat
Sent: June 20, 2021 8:54 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] downloading purchased software from amazon.com?

Hi Troy,

I have never bought any softwares from Amazon nor do i have any
experience i this regard. However, from what i have read in their
terms & conditions is that they only provide you the key to activate
the software & the actual installer still needs to be downloaded from
MS.

I tried looking for a place to download the installer, however,
couldn't find one.

See, if the directions to download the installer are given on the
order page. If nothing else works, you may contact MS via BeMyEyes.

Sorry, I couldn't be of any help rather than throwing random ideas at
you but I hope, it works.

On 6/20/21, Troy Burnham <troyburnham34@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi all,


How do I download software that I bought from amazon.com? I purchased
ms word the other day and I see it in my software library but I don't
see how to download it.


Thanks.


Troy






















Re: how to get rid of feeds?

Bharat
 

It's easy to get rid of this option. Please refer to the below URL:

https://www.onmsft.com/how-to/how-to-turn-off-news-and-interests

Thank you,

Bharat.

On 6/20/21, heather albright <kd5cbl@gmail.com> wrote:
I do not know why this started happening but, feeds are coming across my pc
in the tab sequence. It is from news stories. But I never signed up for this
one. It started happening after the last windows up. Can I turn this stuff
off? Thanks Heather






Re: decided to buy a new desktop

John Holcomb II
 

A Refurb might get you something better at the 500  price point.

I remember posting something here the other day that actually was 256SSD , 16GB of ram,  and Core I5 but forget which chip it was now.

eBay can be your friend too 😊

 

So lol, I think we more or less agree after all of this.

Thing is if you take a look at it and think $900 now  get more value than if you bought a  laptop for $500 and a second one for $400.

And you can add two  year or more warrantee onto that but that shoots your price tag  up of that refurb unit, and if you  are gonna spend that money on the  insurance anyway, might as well just  put it toward  a better machine.

But you know other than  processor and ram and that, people get better keyboards for the higher price point too.

John

 

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of enes saribas
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 11:06 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

I didn't factor deals or mass sales like black Friday into the pricepoint. I had internded to say a machine costing arounnd 800-900  normally would be a good product. But instead of buying a laptop with an outdated chip, if 500 is really only one would spend, it would make sense to be used rather than that.

On 6/20/2021 8:57 PM, John Holcomb II wrote:

Oh yeah true I didn’t think of that. And I honestly forgot until you pointed it out.

I’m actually  surprised they have a laptop released this year with a processor that old.

But again. Its below $600 which is really all some can spend.

But in looking around if you can spend 8 or 900, you’re really a lot better off if you ask me.

Having said that, your $800 or $900 really can be knocked down quite a bit if you go to a site like Dell or HP and configure it yourself.

Lenovo frequently has sails so you never pay list price.

Also look at prime day which is coming up.

There are deals to be had.

Sites like The  Verge, Digital Trends, PCMag, LaptopMag, etc. have entire sections devoted to deals on laptops too.

John

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of enes saribas
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 9:45 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

Hi John,

The issue with thhis one is it has an AMD 3400 U processor. This processor is two generatyions behind. Though the 5000 series didn't bring a massive improvement, the 4000 generation sure did, and that was when AMD doubled core counts at higher segment among other things. I actually stuck with the underpowered Haswell laptop for another year to get a 4000 series instead of a 3000 for the extra performance, which is about 120% more.

On 6/20/2021 8:19 PM, John Holcomb II wrote:

Refurb is  not a bad way to go, in my opinion.

 

But if you don’t go refurb, here’s the cheapest one I I’d get new, from Best Buy.

Just by the specs, don’t believe the SSD is replaceable but the RAM is.

You can easily change this from Windows 10  in S mode to regular windows 10.

Dell Inspiron 15.6" FHD Touch Laptop -AMD Ryzen 5 8GB RAM 256 GB SSD Black i3505-A542BLK-PUS - Best Buy

 

John

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 9:07 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

I really doubt that a typical user needs to spend over 600 dollars for a laptop, and when you consider sales or manufacturer refurbished machines, that makes me even more skeptical.  Even if I am wrong about new laptops, I expect you can get a 700 dollar value or perhaps a little more by buying machines on good sale or a manufacturer refurbished machine. 

 

Also, this review is about fifteen months old.  You will see passages where it is stated that something isn’t as much the case any more.  If such things were changing then, there may be significantly more change now.

Here are two examples:

Regarding batteries:

Note that this is changing, though: in the past, we rarely found a laptop under $730 that offers more than six hours of real-world battery life. Now, some budget laptops can last you a full day.

And that was about sixteen months ago.

Regarding processors:

There was a time when budget laptops were universally equipped with low-cost Pentium and Celeron CPUs with at most dual-core designs. That’s not as true today, with many budget laptops utilizing Intel Core CPUs and AMD Ryzen 3000 quad, and even six-core CPUs in some cases. A modern 10th-gen Intel CPU, like that in the Acer Swift 3, for example, provides excellent performance across the board in both single-threaded and multi-threaded tasks.

Even so, you’re much more likely to get a faster quad-core (or even six- or eight-core) CPU by spending a few hundred dollars more. I’ll let those with much more technical knowledge than I have discuss this passage, but here again, if this was the case sixteen months ago, who knows what the case is now.

And regarding SSD drives, at what price point do they start in laptops?  it has been stated that most laptops have them now. 

 

 

Gene

 

Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 7:47 PM

Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

I am saying your price range of 600-700 for desktops is ok, but laptops the same level of quality on the unit goes for 800-100 or so as stated in the articles. As they are portable, you get less performance per dollar.

On 6/20/2021 7:45 PM, Gene wrote:

I’m not advocating using very slow computers. I don’t know about various processors and other technical matters in terms of acceptable speed.  But I’m writing about this because you may be giving people a really exaggerated sense of slowness at a price range where slowness wouldn’t be a problem.  What price computer are you talking about where a browser might take fifteen seconds to open?  Even on my laptop, eleven years old and moderately priced for its time, I can open browsers in something like three or four seconds.  I don’t have them go to a home page, which speeds up opening but if I had to wait fifteen secondes for a browser to open, I’d be very unhappy. 

 

And this is with a computer with a mechanical hard drive whereas it has been stated that most laptops now have SSD drives.  And considering that what you would get now for the same amount of money as eleven years ago would be faster and more powerful than what I got then, I think it is important to know what sorts of machines you are talking about, moderately priced machines, bottom of the line budget machines or something else? 

 

Gene

-----Original message-----

Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 7:18 PM

Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

That isn't correct though. 99% of people will feel speed matters. There is a poiunt where things are overkill, but an i7 or unllocked processor isn't where it begins. Look at it this way. If you open and close browsers each time, and it takes 15 seconds instead of less than 1, and you did this several dozen times a day, that is minutes off of your life you could be doing something better than sitting in front of youtr screen. And your processor isn't overpowered iether. If I recall that is only 4 core, rather underpowered compared to today's processors. Amd laptop processors easily exceed skylake desktop processor performance these days, and 10 will make your system more responsive, especially since the processor security patches don't mess up your SSD performance as much.

On 6/20/2021 12:24 PM, John Holcomb II wrote:

You have a point that Geen should if he has the money to do so, but consider Geen’s points if you will for a second.

What if Geen doesn’t have a job where that extra 30 seconds matters to him or his company?

What if  he has the money but would rather spend it on an experience doing something not tech related?

What if he doesn’t havce the money at all?

I’ve noticed that many people suggest what is good and isn’t, but not everybody wants to spend that money even if they have it.

There’s a point where things are indeed overkill.

Yes screen readers  do take up more resources but all facts do need to be considered.

I mean look at me, I have got all of this power and if nothing will ever use it why should I  ever bother again?

 

John

 

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io On Behalf Of enes saribas
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 10:39 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

You do need and should get one if you have the disposable income to get one. There is definately many important performance improvements that have a quality of life impact. It makes all the difference in the world whetehr a file compresses iin 5 minutes versus 4 houtrrs, or whether word loads in 30 seconds or less than 1.

On 6/19/2021 5:08 PM, Gene wrote:

I’m not sure what you are saying.  I’m saying that I had no problem with heat using old machines going back to the nineties.  And I don’t know what you mean by the most basic of computer tasks.  I used machines from the early 2000’s to browse, stream, including from Youtube, record audio, word process, and copy backups to external drives.  My laptop is about eleven years old.  Even if my apartment is warm, eighty or eighty-five degrees, I have absolutely no trouble with heat doing the things I discuss, nor do I have problems with the other much older machines I have.  My fans do not race. 

 

I hope others enter into this conversation.  You just do not need a nine-hundred dollar machine if you are a typical computer user, though you seem, as I understand what you are saying, to be advocating that.

 

Gene

-----Original message-----

 

 

Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2021 4:04 PM

Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

Likewise, your experiences, or lack there of of heat doesn't represent everyone with older machines. It is well established that very old processors are underpowered for anything but the most basic of computing tasks, and generate tremendous amounts of heat. You would need to compare it to a brand new high powered laptop to really feel the difference.

On 6/19/2021 1:35 PM, Gene wrote:

I have never had a problem with heat and, though I don’t discount your experience, it cannot be assumed to be representative.  My laptop, an eleven year old machine, seldom has its fan run at anything but a slow speed and that is when I do most things I do, including streaming videos from Youtube. 

 

I have another old, by today’s standards very underpowered machine that runs XP.  I never had a heat problem and I would use it for Youtube.  I should also add that I have another old machine that runs XP and it too never had such a problem.  One person’s experience is not valid for generalization when discussing computer problems and performance.

 

If other people report similar experiences, I would take that into account but nothing in my experience supports your experience.

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2021 1:05 PM

Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

not only that, but heat generation too. My old Toshiba on dual core Haswell i5 would have fans scream even when watching youtube. But my Ryzen fifth gen is a much higher wattage part, but barely produces any heat, even under full load it isn't very bad. And more apps take advantage of multicore. Browsers for one, file encoders and compression tools, OCR software. But the number of things that take advantage will only grow as time passes. And right now fifth gen Ryzen surpasses Intel in even  in single core, and Intel is severely behind, on the desktop they backported a 10 nm  process to 14 nm, making rocket lake, dropping the number of cores on the 1900K by 2 to 8 from the 10 on the 10900K. If you read rocket lake i7 reviews, they are easily the worst processor reviews I have read ever.

On 6/19/2021 10:52 AM, John Holcomb II wrote:

 

Intel is still on the 14NM  process.

This moving to a smaller die size will help with power savings. AMD is killing it right now.

I’m not sure how many apps take advantage of multi-core though?

John

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io On Behalf Of enes saribas
Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2021 12:22 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

They also use newer processor technology, 7 nanometer vs 14 nanometer for Intel, don't have as many hardware side channel vulnerabilities, and also generate less heat for the same performance thanks to the newer processor technologies. They have substantially better multicore core performance as well.

On 6/18/2021 4:57 PM, John Holcomb II wrote:

M.2 SSDs will be on anything but the bottom of the crop when it comes to desktops.

Same with hyper threading.

But here’s another thought to consider.

For single core performance, AMD is  worth a look. They have something similar to hyper threading which I forget what its called now.

John

 

He’s right and I forgot about that.

Sent: Friday, June 18, 2021 5:46 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

I am not a tech but I doubt you have to worry about the case.  You seem to be worried that the problems you have with your computer are caused by heat.  there is no reason for that assumption. 

 

As has been asked, how do you intend to use your computer?  I know little about M2 slots but whether you have one may not matter to any extent depending on how you intend to use it.  My impression is that they are common on computers now but I am just stating an impression and I hope others discuss the question. 

 

I would imagine that other things you are worried about, hyperthreading, for example, are so standard in machines that are not bottom of the line that you probably don’t have to worry about whether a machine uyou buy has that ability.  I would imagine it is present in any machine that isn’t a bottom of the line budget machine.

 

As has been asked, how do you intend to use the machine?  I’ll ask further if you anticipate your uses changing to any significant extent over time.  After we know how you intend to use your machine, people can discuss such matters as price, power of machine, etc.  I think those questions of use are by far the most important in people advising you.

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Friday, June 18, 2021 3:59 PM

Subject: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

Well, I guess I am coming in to this decade I am finally going to upgrade my desktop after 7 or 8 years.  So do I have to tell them I want an  m2 slot or is there another term?  I ran the Belarc adviser and it said I did not have  hiper threaded with my cores. I read up that the hiper threaded makes them faster for the PC.  Everything else was intergraded on the mother board, sound, internet card, graphics card and  memory. It was all intel integrated. The first thing to go out on this machine was the sound about 1.5 years ago. I am wired in to the modem as the wireless is not that great .I have to use a USB cord to get my printer to print too. So I am not sure what went out that these do not work anymore unless I do it threw a cable. I know the Bluetooth still works as my keyboard and mouse still work with the dongle. Monitor port does not work but I just switched to a  USB monitor. I was just wondering if I can get a tower  casing that vents heat more evenly. Or are the tower cases different these days. Thanks everybody.

Heather

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


Re: decided to buy a new desktop

enes sarıbaş
 

I didn't factor deals or mass sales like black Friday into the pricepoint. I had internded to say a machine costing arounnd 800-900  normally would be a good product. But instead of buying a laptop with an outdated chip, if 500 is really only one would spend, it would make sense to be used rather than that.

On 6/20/2021 8:57 PM, John Holcomb II wrote:

Oh yeah true I didn’t think of that. And I honestly forgot until you pointed it out.

I’m actually  surprised they have a laptop released this year with a processor that old.

But again. Its below $600 which is really all some can spend.

But in looking around if you can spend 8 or 900, you’re really a lot better off if you ask me.

Having said that, your $800 or $900 really can be knocked down quite a bit if you go to a site like Dell or HP and configure it yourself.

Lenovo frequently has sails so you never pay list price.

Also look at prime day which is coming up.

There are deals to be had.

Sites like The  Verge, Digital Trends, PCMag, LaptopMag, etc. have entire sections devoted to deals on laptops too.

John

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of enes saribas
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 9:45 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

Hi John,

The issue with thhis one is it has an AMD 3400 U processor. This processor is two generatyions behind. Though the 5000 series didn't bring a massive improvement, the 4000 generation sure did, and that was when AMD doubled core counts at higher segment among other things. I actually stuck with the underpowered Haswell laptop for another year to get a 4000 series instead of a 3000 for the extra performance, which is about 120% more.

On 6/20/2021 8:19 PM, John Holcomb II wrote:

Refurb is  not a bad way to go, in my opinion.

 

But if you don’t go refurb, here’s the cheapest one I I’d get new, from Best Buy.

Just by the specs, don’t believe the SSD is replaceable but the RAM is.

You can easily change this from Windows 10  in S mode to regular windows 10.

Dell Inspiron 15.6" FHD Touch Laptop -AMD Ryzen 5 8GB RAM 256 GB SSD Black i3505-A542BLK-PUS - Best Buy

 

John

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 9:07 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

I really doubt that a typical user needs to spend over 600 dollars for a laptop, and when you consider sales or manufacturer refurbished machines, that makes me even more skeptical.  Even if I am wrong about new laptops, I expect you can get a 700 dollar value or perhaps a little more by buying machines on good sale or a manufacturer refurbished machine. 

 

Also, this review is about fifteen months old.  You will see passages where it is stated that something isn’t as much the case any more.  If such things were changing then, there may be significantly more change now.

Here are two examples:

Regarding batteries:

Note that this is changing, though: in the past, we rarely found a laptop under $730 that offers more than six hours of real-world battery life. Now, some budget laptops can last you a full day.

And that was about sixteen months ago.

Regarding processors:

There was a time when budget laptops were universally equipped with low-cost Pentium and Celeron CPUs with at most dual-core designs. That’s not as true today, with many budget laptops utilizing Intel Core CPUs and AMD Ryzen 3000 quad, and even six-core CPUs in some cases. A modern 10th-gen Intel CPU, like that in the Acer Swift 3, for example, provides excellent performance across the board in both single-threaded and multi-threaded tasks.

Even so, you’re much more likely to get a faster quad-core (or even six- or eight-core) CPU by spending a few hundred dollars more. I’ll let those with much more technical knowledge than I have discuss this passage, but here again, if this was the case sixteen months ago, who knows what the case is now.

And regarding SSD drives, at what price point do they start in laptops?  it has been stated that most laptops have them now. 

 

 

Gene

 

Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 7:47 PM

Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

I am saying your price range of 600-700 for desktops is ok, but laptops the same level of quality on the unit goes for 800-100 or so as stated in the articles. As they are portable, you get less performance per dollar.

On 6/20/2021 7:45 PM, Gene wrote:

I’m not advocating using very slow computers. I don’t know about various processors and other technical matters in terms of acceptable speed.  But I’m writing about this because you may be giving people a really exaggerated sense of slowness at a price range where slowness wouldn’t be a problem.  What price computer are you talking about where a browser might take fifteen seconds to open?  Even on my laptop, eleven years old and moderately priced for its time, I can open browsers in something like three or four seconds.  I don’t have them go to a home page, which speeds up opening but if I had to wait fifteen secondes for a browser to open, I’d be very unhappy. 

 

And this is with a computer with a mechanical hard drive whereas it has been stated that most laptops now have SSD drives.  And considering that what you would get now for the same amount of money as eleven years ago would be faster and more powerful than what I got then, I think it is important to know what sorts of machines you are talking about, moderately priced machines, bottom of the line budget machines or something else? 

 

Gene

-----Original message-----

Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 7:18 PM

Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

That isn't correct though. 99% of people will feel speed matters. There is a poiunt where things are overkill, but an i7 or unllocked processor isn't where it begins. Look at it this way. If you open and close browsers each time, and it takes 15 seconds instead of less than 1, and you did this several dozen times a day, that is minutes off of your life you could be doing something better than sitting in front of youtr screen. And your processor isn't overpowered iether. If I recall that is only 4 core, rather underpowered compared to today's processors. Amd laptop processors easily exceed skylake desktop processor performance these days, and 10 will make your system more responsive, especially since the processor security patches don't mess up your SSD performance as much.

On 6/20/2021 12:24 PM, John Holcomb II wrote:

You have a point that Geen should if he has the money to do so, but consider Geen’s points if you will for a second.

What if Geen doesn’t have a job where that extra 30 seconds matters to him or his company?

What if  he has the money but would rather spend it on an experience doing something not tech related?

What if he doesn’t havce the money at all?

I’ve noticed that many people suggest what is good and isn’t, but not everybody wants to spend that money even if they have it.

There’s a point where things are indeed overkill.

Yes screen readers  do take up more resources but all facts do need to be considered.

I mean look at me, I have got all of this power and if nothing will ever use it why should I  ever bother again?

 

John

 

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io On Behalf Of enes saribas
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 10:39 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

You do need and should get one if you have the disposable income to get one. There is definately many important performance improvements that have a quality of life impact. It makes all the difference in the world whetehr a file compresses iin 5 minutes versus 4 houtrrs, or whether word loads in 30 seconds or less than 1.

On 6/19/2021 5:08 PM, Gene wrote:

I’m not sure what you are saying.  I’m saying that I had no problem with heat using old machines going back to the nineties.  And I don’t know what you mean by the most basic of computer tasks.  I used machines from the early 2000’s to browse, stream, including from Youtube, record audio, word process, and copy backups to external drives.  My laptop is about eleven years old.  Even if my apartment is warm, eighty or eighty-five degrees, I have absolutely no trouble with heat doing the things I discuss, nor do I have problems with the other much older machines I have.  My fans do not race. 

 

I hope others enter into this conversation.  You just do not need a nine-hundred dollar machine if you are a typical computer user, though you seem, as I understand what you are saying, to be advocating that.

 

Gene

-----Original message-----

 

 

Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2021 4:04 PM

Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

Likewise, your experiences, or lack there of of heat doesn't represent everyone with older machines. It is well established that very old processors are underpowered for anything but the most basic of computing tasks, and generate tremendous amounts of heat. You would need to compare it to a brand new high powered laptop to really feel the difference.

On 6/19/2021 1:35 PM, Gene wrote:

I have never had a problem with heat and, though I don’t discount your experience, it cannot be assumed to be representative.  My laptop, an eleven year old machine, seldom has its fan run at anything but a slow speed and that is when I do most things I do, including streaming videos from Youtube. 

 

I have another old, by today’s standards very underpowered machine that runs XP.  I never had a heat problem and I would use it for Youtube.  I should also add that I have another old machine that runs XP and it too never had such a problem.  One person’s experience is not valid for generalization when discussing computer problems and performance.

 

If other people report similar experiences, I would take that into account but nothing in my experience supports your experience.

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2021 1:05 PM

Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

not only that, but heat generation too. My old Toshiba on dual core Haswell i5 would have fans scream even when watching youtube. But my Ryzen fifth gen is a much higher wattage part, but barely produces any heat, even under full load it isn't very bad. And more apps take advantage of multicore. Browsers for one, file encoders and compression tools, OCR software. But the number of things that take advantage will only grow as time passes. And right now fifth gen Ryzen surpasses Intel in even  in single core, and Intel is severely behind, on the desktop they backported a 10 nm  process to 14 nm, making rocket lake, dropping the number of cores on the 1900K by 2 to 8 from the 10 on the 10900K. If you read rocket lake i7 reviews, they are easily the worst processor reviews I have read ever.

On 6/19/2021 10:52 AM, John Holcomb II wrote:

 

Intel is still on the 14NM  process.

This moving to a smaller die size will help with power savings. AMD is killing it right now.

I’m not sure how many apps take advantage of multi-core though?

John

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io On Behalf Of enes saribas
Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2021 12:22 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

They also use newer processor technology, 7 nanometer vs 14 nanometer for Intel, don't have as many hardware side channel vulnerabilities, and also generate less heat for the same performance thanks to the newer processor technologies. They have substantially better multicore core performance as well.

On 6/18/2021 4:57 PM, John Holcomb II wrote:

M.2 SSDs will be on anything but the bottom of the crop when it comes to desktops.

Same with hyper threading.

But here’s another thought to consider.

For single core performance, AMD is  worth a look. They have something similar to hyper threading which I forget what its called now.

John

 

He’s right and I forgot about that.

Sent: Friday, June 18, 2021 5:46 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

I am not a tech but I doubt you have to worry about the case.  You seem to be worried that the problems you have with your computer are caused by heat.  there is no reason for that assumption. 

 

As has been asked, how do you intend to use your computer?  I know little about M2 slots but whether you have one may not matter to any extent depending on how you intend to use it.  My impression is that they are common on computers now but I am just stating an impression and I hope others discuss the question. 

 

I would imagine that other things you are worried about, hyperthreading, for example, are so standard in machines that are not bottom of the line that you probably don’t have to worry about whether a machine uyou buy has that ability.  I would imagine it is present in any machine that isn’t a bottom of the line budget machine.

 

As has been asked, how do you intend to use the machine?  I’ll ask further if you anticipate your uses changing to any significant extent over time.  After we know how you intend to use your machine, people can discuss such matters as price, power of machine, etc.  I think those questions of use are by far the most important in people advising you.

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Friday, June 18, 2021 3:59 PM

Subject: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

Well, I guess I am coming in to this decade I am finally going to upgrade my desktop after 7 or 8 years.  So do I have to tell them I want an  m2 slot or is there another term?  I ran the Belarc adviser and it said I did not have  hiper threaded with my cores. I read up that the hiper threaded makes them faster for the PC.  Everything else was intergraded on the mother board, sound, internet card, graphics card and  memory. It was all intel integrated. The first thing to go out on this machine was the sound about 1.5 years ago. I am wired in to the modem as the wireless is not that great .I have to use a USB cord to get my printer to print too. So I am not sure what went out that these do not work anymore unless I do it threw a cable. I know the Bluetooth still works as my keyboard and mouse still work with the dongle. Monitor port does not work but I just switched to a  USB monitor. I was just wondering if I can get a tower  casing that vents heat more evenly. Or are the tower cases different these days. Thanks everybody.

Heather

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


Re: decided to buy a new desktop

John Holcomb II
 

Oh yeah true I didn’t think of that. And I honestly forgot until you pointed it out.

I’m actually  surprised they have a laptop released this year with a processor that old.

But again. Its below $600 which is really all some can spend.

But in looking around if you can spend 8 or 900, you’re really a lot better off if you ask me.

Having said that, your $800 or $900 really can be knocked down quite a bit if you go to a site like Dell or HP and configure it yourself.

Lenovo frequently has sails so you never pay list price.

Also look at prime day which is coming up.

There are deals to be had.

Sites like The  Verge, Digital Trends, PCMag, LaptopMag, etc. have entire sections devoted to deals on laptops too.

John

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of enes saribas
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 9:45 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

Hi John,

The issue with thhis one is it has an AMD 3400 U processor. This processor is two generatyions behind. Though the 5000 series didn't bring a massive improvement, the 4000 generation sure did, and that was when AMD doubled core counts at higher segment among other things. I actually stuck with the underpowered Haswell laptop for another year to get a 4000 series instead of a 3000 for the extra performance, which is about 120% more.

On 6/20/2021 8:19 PM, John Holcomb II wrote:

Refurb is  not a bad way to go, in my opinion.

 

But if you don’t go refurb, here’s the cheapest one I I’d get new, from Best Buy.

Just by the specs, don’t believe the SSD is replaceable but the RAM is.

You can easily change this from Windows 10  in S mode to regular windows 10.

Dell Inspiron 15.6" FHD Touch Laptop -AMD Ryzen 5 8GB RAM 256 GB SSD Black i3505-A542BLK-PUS - Best Buy

 

John

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 9:07 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

I really doubt that a typical user needs to spend over 600 dollars for a laptop, and when you consider sales or manufacturer refurbished machines, that makes me even more skeptical.  Even if I am wrong about new laptops, I expect you can get a 700 dollar value or perhaps a little more by buying machines on good sale or a manufacturer refurbished machine. 

 

Also, this review is about fifteen months old.  You will see passages where it is stated that something isn’t as much the case any more.  If such things were changing then, there may be significantly more change now.

Here are two examples:

Regarding batteries:

Note that this is changing, though: in the past, we rarely found a laptop under $730 that offers more than six hours of real-world battery life. Now, some budget laptops can last you a full day.

And that was about sixteen months ago.

Regarding processors:

There was a time when budget laptops were universally equipped with low-cost Pentium and Celeron CPUs with at most dual-core designs. That’s not as true today, with many budget laptops utilizing Intel Core CPUs and AMD Ryzen 3000 quad, and even six-core CPUs in some cases. A modern 10th-gen Intel CPU, like that in the Acer Swift 3, for example, provides excellent performance across the board in both single-threaded and multi-threaded tasks.

Even so, you’re much more likely to get a faster quad-core (or even six- or eight-core) CPU by spending a few hundred dollars more. I’ll let those with much more technical knowledge than I have discuss this passage, but here again, if this was the case sixteen months ago, who knows what the case is now.

And regarding SSD drives, at what price point do they start in laptops?  it has been stated that most laptops have them now. 

 

 

Gene

 

Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 7:47 PM

Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

I am saying your price range of 600-700 for desktops is ok, but laptops the same level of quality on the unit goes for 800-100 or so as stated in the articles. As they are portable, you get less performance per dollar.

On 6/20/2021 7:45 PM, Gene wrote:

I’m not advocating using very slow computers. I don’t know about various processors and other technical matters in terms of acceptable speed.  But I’m writing about this because you may be giving people a really exaggerated sense of slowness at a price range where slowness wouldn’t be a problem.  What price computer are you talking about where a browser might take fifteen seconds to open?  Even on my laptop, eleven years old and moderately priced for its time, I can open browsers in something like three or four seconds.  I don’t have them go to a home page, which speeds up opening but if I had to wait fifteen secondes for a browser to open, I’d be very unhappy. 

 

And this is with a computer with a mechanical hard drive whereas it has been stated that most laptops now have SSD drives.  And considering that what you would get now for the same amount of money as eleven years ago would be faster and more powerful than what I got then, I think it is important to know what sorts of machines you are talking about, moderately priced machines, bottom of the line budget machines or something else? 

 

Gene

-----Original message-----

Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 7:18 PM

Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

That isn't correct though. 99% of people will feel speed matters. There is a poiunt where things are overkill, but an i7 or unllocked processor isn't where it begins. Look at it this way. If you open and close browsers each time, and it takes 15 seconds instead of less than 1, and you did this several dozen times a day, that is minutes off of your life you could be doing something better than sitting in front of youtr screen. And your processor isn't overpowered iether. If I recall that is only 4 core, rather underpowered compared to today's processors. Amd laptop processors easily exceed skylake desktop processor performance these days, and 10 will make your system more responsive, especially since the processor security patches don't mess up your SSD performance as much.

On 6/20/2021 12:24 PM, John Holcomb II wrote:

You have a point that Geen should if he has the money to do so, but consider Geen’s points if you will for a second.

What if Geen doesn’t have a job where that extra 30 seconds matters to him or his company?

What if  he has the money but would rather spend it on an experience doing something not tech related?

What if he doesn’t havce the money at all?

I’ve noticed that many people suggest what is good and isn’t, but not everybody wants to spend that money even if they have it.

There’s a point where things are indeed overkill.

Yes screen readers  do take up more resources but all facts do need to be considered.

I mean look at me, I have got all of this power and if nothing will ever use it why should I  ever bother again?

 

John

 

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io On Behalf Of enes saribas
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 10:39 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

You do need and should get one if you have the disposable income to get one. There is definately many important performance improvements that have a quality of life impact. It makes all the difference in the world whetehr a file compresses iin 5 minutes versus 4 houtrrs, or whether word loads in 30 seconds or less than 1.

On 6/19/2021 5:08 PM, Gene wrote:

I’m not sure what you are saying.  I’m saying that I had no problem with heat using old machines going back to the nineties.  And I don’t know what you mean by the most basic of computer tasks.  I used machines from the early 2000’s to browse, stream, including from Youtube, record audio, word process, and copy backups to external drives.  My laptop is about eleven years old.  Even if my apartment is warm, eighty or eighty-five degrees, I have absolutely no trouble with heat doing the things I discuss, nor do I have problems with the other much older machines I have.  My fans do not race. 

 

I hope others enter into this conversation.  You just do not need a nine-hundred dollar machine if you are a typical computer user, though you seem, as I understand what you are saying, to be advocating that.

 

Gene

-----Original message-----

 

 

Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2021 4:04 PM

Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

Likewise, your experiences, or lack there of of heat doesn't represent everyone with older machines. It is well established that very old processors are underpowered for anything but the most basic of computing tasks, and generate tremendous amounts of heat. You would need to compare it to a brand new high powered laptop to really feel the difference.

On 6/19/2021 1:35 PM, Gene wrote:

I have never had a problem with heat and, though I don’t discount your experience, it cannot be assumed to be representative.  My laptop, an eleven year old machine, seldom has its fan run at anything but a slow speed and that is when I do most things I do, including streaming videos from Youtube. 

 

I have another old, by today’s standards very underpowered machine that runs XP.  I never had a heat problem and I would use it for Youtube.  I should also add that I have another old machine that runs XP and it too never had such a problem.  One person’s experience is not valid for generalization when discussing computer problems and performance.

 

If other people report similar experiences, I would take that into account but nothing in my experience supports your experience.

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2021 1:05 PM

Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

not only that, but heat generation too. My old Toshiba on dual core Haswell i5 would have fans scream even when watching youtube. But my Ryzen fifth gen is a much higher wattage part, but barely produces any heat, even under full load it isn't very bad. And more apps take advantage of multicore. Browsers for one, file encoders and compression tools, OCR software. But the number of things that take advantage will only grow as time passes. And right now fifth gen Ryzen surpasses Intel in even  in single core, and Intel is severely behind, on the desktop they backported a 10 nm  process to 14 nm, making rocket lake, dropping the number of cores on the 1900K by 2 to 8 from the 10 on the 10900K. If you read rocket lake i7 reviews, they are easily the worst processor reviews I have read ever.

On 6/19/2021 10:52 AM, John Holcomb II wrote:

 

Intel is still on the 14NM  process.

This moving to a smaller die size will help with power savings. AMD is killing it right now.

I’m not sure how many apps take advantage of multi-core though?

John

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io On Behalf Of enes saribas
Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2021 12:22 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

They also use newer processor technology, 7 nanometer vs 14 nanometer for Intel, don't have as many hardware side channel vulnerabilities, and also generate less heat for the same performance thanks to the newer processor technologies. They have substantially better multicore core performance as well.

On 6/18/2021 4:57 PM, John Holcomb II wrote:

M.2 SSDs will be on anything but the bottom of the crop when it comes to desktops.

Same with hyper threading.

But here’s another thought to consider.

For single core performance, AMD is  worth a look. They have something similar to hyper threading which I forget what its called now.

John

 

He’s right and I forgot about that.

Sent: Friday, June 18, 2021 5:46 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

I am not a tech but I doubt you have to worry about the case.  You seem to be worried that the problems you have with your computer are caused by heat.  there is no reason for that assumption. 

 

As has been asked, how do you intend to use your computer?  I know little about M2 slots but whether you have one may not matter to any extent depending on how you intend to use it.  My impression is that they are common on computers now but I am just stating an impression and I hope others discuss the question. 

 

I would imagine that other things you are worried about, hyperthreading, for example, are so standard in machines that are not bottom of the line that you probably don’t have to worry about whether a machine uyou buy has that ability.  I would imagine it is present in any machine that isn’t a bottom of the line budget machine.

 

As has been asked, how do you intend to use the machine?  I’ll ask further if you anticipate your uses changing to any significant extent over time.  After we know how you intend to use your machine, people can discuss such matters as price, power of machine, etc.  I think those questions of use are by far the most important in people advising you.

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Friday, June 18, 2021 3:59 PM

Subject: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

Well, I guess I am coming in to this decade I am finally going to upgrade my desktop after 7 or 8 years.  So do I have to tell them I want an  m2 slot or is there another term?  I ran the Belarc adviser and it said I did not have  hiper threaded with my cores. I read up that the hiper threaded makes them faster for the PC.  Everything else was intergraded on the mother board, sound, internet card, graphics card and  memory. It was all intel integrated. The first thing to go out on this machine was the sound about 1.5 years ago. I am wired in to the modem as the wireless is not that great .I have to use a USB cord to get my printer to print too. So I am not sure what went out that these do not work anymore unless I do it threw a cable. I know the Bluetooth still works as my keyboard and mouse still work with the dongle. Monitor port does not work but I just switched to a  USB monitor. I was just wondering if I can get a tower  casing that vents heat more evenly. Or are the tower cases different these days. Thanks everybody.

Heather

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


Re: decided to buy a new desktop

John Holcomb II
 

I3  is not the absolute bottom. It’s the bottom on the core line though. Since its I3, I5, I7 and I9.

Look at Pentium gold or even more cheaply seleren processors.  That is the bottom (the seleren especially.)

You start going to   Celeron  you start getting eMMC drives, 64GB only, 4GB but I think I’ve seen 2GB of ram…

John

 

 

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of John Holcomb II via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 9:44 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

Man has that changed.

My newest laptop is still duel core  only, just because what was it,  the 8th or 9th  generation that finally had people have more than 2 cores on a laptop?

John

 

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of enes saribas
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 9:42 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

Gene,

This hasn't changed. i3 are still bottom of the barrel, and lack standard features found in the i5. All Intel processors are 4 core, with the possuible exception of i3, and AMD processors go up to 6 core at the r5 level.

On 6/20/2021 8:07 PM, Gene wrote:

I really doubt that a typical user needs to spend over 600 dollars for a laptop, and when you consider sales or manufacturer refurbished machines, that makes me even more skeptical.  Even if I am wrong about new laptops, I expect you can get a 700 dollar value or perhaps a little more by buying machines on good sale or a manufacturer refurbished machine. 

 

Also, this review is about fifteen months old.  You will see passages where it is stated that something isn’t as much the case any more.  If such things were changing then, there may be significantly more change now.

Here are two examples:

Regarding batteries:

Note that this is changing, though: in the past, we rarely found a laptop under $730 that offers more than six hours of real-world battery life. Now, some budget laptops can last you a full day.

And that was about sixteen months ago.

Regarding processors:

There was a time when budget laptops were universally equipped with low-cost Pentium and Celeron CPUs with at most dual-core designs. That’s not as true today, with many budget laptops utilizing Intel Core CPUs and AMD Ryzen 3000 quad, and even six-core CPUs in some cases. A modern 10th-gen Intel CPU, like that in the Acer Swift 3, for example, provides excellent performance across the board in both single-threaded and multi-threaded tasks.

Even so, you’re much more likely to get a faster quad-core (or even six- or eight-core) CPU by spending a few hundred dollars more. I’ll let those with much more technical knowledge than I have discuss this passage, but here again, if this was the case sixteen months ago, who knows what the case is now.

And regarding SSD drives, at what price point do they start in laptops?  it has been stated that most laptops have them now. 

 

 

Gene

 

Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 7:47 PM

Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

I am saying your price range of 600-700 for desktops is ok, but laptops the same level of quality on the unit goes for 800-100 or so as stated in the articles. As they are portable, you get less performance per dollar.

On 6/20/2021 7:45 PM, Gene wrote:

I’m not advocating using very slow computers. I don’t know about various processors and other technical matters in terms of acceptable speed.  But I’m writing about this because you may be giving people a really exaggerated sense of slowness at a price range where slowness wouldn’t be a problem.  What price computer are you talking about where a browser might take fifteen seconds to open?  Even on my laptop, eleven years old and moderately priced for its time, I can open browsers in something like three or four seconds.  I don’t have them go to a home page, which speeds up opening but if I had to wait fifteen secondes for a browser to open, I’d be very unhappy. 

 

And this is with a computer with a mechanical hard drive whereas it has been stated that most laptops now have SSD drives.  And considering that what you would get now for the same amount of money as eleven years ago would be faster and more powerful than what I got then, I think it is important to know what sorts of machines you are talking about, moderately priced machines, bottom of the line budget machines or something else? 

 

Gene

-----Original message-----

Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 7:18 PM

Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

That isn't correct though. 99% of people will feel speed matters. There is a poiunt where things are overkill, but an i7 or unllocked processor isn't where it begins. Look at it this way. If you open and close browsers each time, and it takes 15 seconds instead of less than 1, and you did this several dozen times a day, that is minutes off of your life you could be doing something better than sitting in front of youtr screen. And your processor isn't overpowered iether. If I recall that is only 4 core, rather underpowered compared to today's processors. Amd laptop processors easily exceed skylake desktop processor performance these days, and 10 will make your system more responsive, especially since the processor security patches don't mess up your SSD performance as much.

On 6/20/2021 12:24 PM, John Holcomb II wrote:

You have a point that Geen should if he has the money to do so, but consider Geen’s points if you will for a second.

What if Geen doesn’t have a job where that extra 30 seconds matters to him or his company?

What if  he has the money but would rather spend it on an experience doing something not tech related?

What if he doesn’t havce the money at all?

I’ve noticed that many people suggest what is good and isn’t, but not everybody wants to spend that money even if they have it.

There’s a point where things are indeed overkill.

Yes screen readers  do take up more resources but all facts do need to be considered.

I mean look at me, I have got all of this power and if nothing will ever use it why should I  ever bother again?

 

John

 

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io On Behalf Of enes saribas
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 10:39 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

You do need and should get one if you have the disposable income to get one. There is definately many important performance improvements that have a quality of life impact. It makes all the difference in the world whetehr a file compresses iin 5 minutes versus 4 houtrrs, or whether word loads in 30 seconds or less than 1.

On 6/19/2021 5:08 PM, Gene wrote:

I’m not sure what you are saying.  I’m saying that I had no problem with heat using old machines going back to the nineties.  And I don’t know what you mean by the most basic of computer tasks.  I used machines from the early 2000’s to browse, stream, including from Youtube, record audio, word process, and copy backups to external drives.  My laptop is about eleven years old.  Even if my apartment is warm, eighty or eighty-five degrees, I have absolutely no trouble with heat doing the things I discuss, nor do I have problems with the other much older machines I have.  My fans do not race. 

 

I hope others enter into this conversation.  You just do not need a nine-hundred dollar machine if you are a typical computer user, though you seem, as I understand what you are saying, to be advocating that.

 

Gene

-----Original message-----

 

 

Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2021 4:04 PM

Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

Likewise, your experiences, or lack there of of heat doesn't represent everyone with older machines. It is well established that very old processors are underpowered for anything but the most basic of computing tasks, and generate tremendous amounts of heat. You would need to compare it to a brand new high powered laptop to really feel the difference.

On 6/19/2021 1:35 PM, Gene wrote:

I have never had a problem with heat and, though I don’t discount your experience, it cannot be assumed to be representative.  My laptop, an eleven year old machine, seldom has its fan run at anything but a slow speed and that is when I do most things I do, including streaming videos from Youtube. 

 

I have another old, by today’s standards very underpowered machine that runs XP.  I never had a heat problem and I would use it for Youtube.  I should also add that I have another old machine that runs XP and it too never had such a problem.  One person’s experience is not valid for generalization when discussing computer problems and performance.

 

If other people report similar experiences, I would take that into account but nothing in my experience supports your experience.

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2021 1:05 PM

Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

not only that, but heat generation too. My old Toshiba on dual core Haswell i5 would have fans scream even when watching youtube. But my Ryzen fifth gen is a much higher wattage part, but barely produces any heat, even under full load it isn't very bad. And more apps take advantage of multicore. Browsers for one, file encoders and compression tools, OCR software. But the number of things that take advantage will only grow as time passes. And right now fifth gen Ryzen surpasses Intel in even  in single core, and Intel is severely behind, on the desktop they backported a 10 nm  process to 14 nm, making rocket lake, dropping the number of cores on the 1900K by 2 to 8 from the 10 on the 10900K. If you read rocket lake i7 reviews, they are easily the worst processor reviews I have read ever.

On 6/19/2021 10:52 AM, John Holcomb II wrote:

 

Intel is still on the 14NM  process.

This moving to a smaller die size will help with power savings. AMD is killing it right now.

I’m not sure how many apps take advantage of multi-core though?

John

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io On Behalf Of enes saribas
Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2021 12:22 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

They also use newer processor technology, 7 nanometer vs 14 nanometer for Intel, don't have as many hardware side channel vulnerabilities, and also generate less heat for the same performance thanks to the newer processor technologies. They have substantially better multicore core performance as well.

On 6/18/2021 4:57 PM, John Holcomb II wrote:

M.2 SSDs will be on anything but the bottom of the crop when it comes to desktops.

Same with hyper threading.

But here’s another thought to consider.

For single core performance, AMD is  worth a look. They have something similar to hyper threading which I forget what its called now.

John

 

He’s right and I forgot about that.

Sent: Friday, June 18, 2021 5:46 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

I am not a tech but I doubt you have to worry about the case.  You seem to be worried that the problems you have with your computer are caused by heat.  there is no reason for that assumption. 

 

As has been asked, how do you intend to use your computer?  I know little about M2 slots but whether you have one may not matter to any extent depending on how you intend to use it.  My impression is that they are common on computers now but I am just stating an impression and I hope others discuss the question. 

 

I would imagine that other things you are worried about, hyperthreading, for example, are so standard in machines that are not bottom of the line that you probably don’t have to worry about whether a machine uyou buy has that ability.  I would imagine it is present in any machine that isn’t a bottom of the line budget machine.

 

As has been asked, how do you intend to use the machine?  I’ll ask further if you anticipate your uses changing to any significant extent over time.  After we know how you intend to use your machine, people can discuss such matters as price, power of machine, etc.  I think those questions of use are by far the most important in people advising you.

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Friday, June 18, 2021 3:59 PM

Subject: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

Well, I guess I am coming in to this decade I am finally going to upgrade my desktop after 7 or 8 years.  So do I have to tell them I want an  m2 slot or is there another term?  I ran the Belarc adviser and it said I did not have  hiper threaded with my cores. I read up that the hiper threaded makes them faster for the PC.  Everything else was intergraded on the mother board, sound, internet card, graphics card and  memory. It was all intel integrated. The first thing to go out on this machine was the sound about 1.5 years ago. I am wired in to the modem as the wireless is not that great .I have to use a USB cord to get my printer to print too. So I am not sure what went out that these do not work anymore unless I do it threw a cable. I know the Bluetooth still works as my keyboard and mouse still work with the dongle. Monitor port does not work but I just switched to a  USB monitor. I was just wondering if I can get a tower  casing that vents heat more evenly. Or are the tower cases different these days. Thanks everybody.

Heather

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


Re: decided to buy a new desktop

enes sarıbaş
 

i7 always had four cores, the eighth generation or so added two cores to midrange and lower end.

On 6/20/2021 8:44 PM, John Holcomb II wrote:

Man has that changed.

My newest laptop is still duel core  only, just because what was it,  the 8th or 9th  generation that finally had people have more than 2 cores on a laptop?

John

 

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of enes saribas
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 9:42 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

Gene,

This hasn't changed. i3 are still bottom of the barrel, and lack standard features found in the i5. All Intel processors are 4 core, with the possuible exception of i3, and AMD processors go up to 6 core at the r5 level.

On 6/20/2021 8:07 PM, Gene wrote:

I really doubt that a typical user needs to spend over 600 dollars for a laptop, and when you consider sales or manufacturer refurbished machines, that makes me even more skeptical.  Even if I am wrong about new laptops, I expect you can get a 700 dollar value or perhaps a little more by buying machines on good sale or a manufacturer refurbished machine. 

 

Also, this review is about fifteen months old.  You will see passages where it is stated that something isn’t as much the case any more.  If such things were changing then, there may be significantly more change now.

Here are two examples:

Regarding batteries:

Note that this is changing, though: in the past, we rarely found a laptop under $730 that offers more than six hours of real-world battery life. Now, some budget laptops can last you a full day.

And that was about sixteen months ago.

Regarding processors:

There was a time when budget laptops were universally equipped with low-cost Pentium and Celeron CPUs with at most dual-core designs. That’s not as true today, with many budget laptops utilizing Intel Core CPUs and AMD Ryzen 3000 quad, and even six-core CPUs in some cases. A modern 10th-gen Intel CPU, like that in the Acer Swift 3, for example, provides excellent performance across the board in both single-threaded and multi-threaded tasks.

Even so, you’re much more likely to get a faster quad-core (or even six- or eight-core) CPU by spending a few hundred dollars more. I’ll let those with much more technical knowledge than I have discuss this passage, but here again, if this was the case sixteen months ago, who knows what the case is now.

And regarding SSD drives, at what price point do they start in laptops?  it has been stated that most laptops have them now. 

 

 

Gene

 

Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 7:47 PM

Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

I am saying your price range of 600-700 for desktops is ok, but laptops the same level of quality on the unit goes for 800-100 or so as stated in the articles. As they are portable, you get less performance per dollar.

On 6/20/2021 7:45 PM, Gene wrote:

I’m not advocating using very slow computers. I don’t know about various processors and other technical matters in terms of acceptable speed.  But I’m writing about this because you may be giving people a really exaggerated sense of slowness at a price range where slowness wouldn’t be a problem.  What price computer are you talking about where a browser might take fifteen seconds to open?  Even on my laptop, eleven years old and moderately priced for its time, I can open browsers in something like three or four seconds.  I don’t have them go to a home page, which speeds up opening but if I had to wait fifteen secondes for a browser to open, I’d be very unhappy. 

 

And this is with a computer with a mechanical hard drive whereas it has been stated that most laptops now have SSD drives.  And considering that what you would get now for the same amount of money as eleven years ago would be faster and more powerful than what I got then, I think it is important to know what sorts of machines you are talking about, moderately priced machines, bottom of the line budget machines or something else? 

 

Gene

-----Original message-----

Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 7:18 PM

Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

That isn't correct though. 99% of people will feel speed matters. There is a poiunt where things are overkill, but an i7 or unllocked processor isn't where it begins. Look at it this way. If you open and close browsers each time, and it takes 15 seconds instead of less than 1, and you did this several dozen times a day, that is minutes off of your life you could be doing something better than sitting in front of youtr screen. And your processor isn't overpowered iether. If I recall that is only 4 core, rather underpowered compared to today's processors. Amd laptop processors easily exceed skylake desktop processor performance these days, and 10 will make your system more responsive, especially since the processor security patches don't mess up your SSD performance as much.

On 6/20/2021 12:24 PM, John Holcomb II wrote:

You have a point that Geen should if he has the money to do so, but consider Geen’s points if you will for a second.

What if Geen doesn’t have a job where that extra 30 seconds matters to him or his company?

What if  he has the money but would rather spend it on an experience doing something not tech related?

What if he doesn’t havce the money at all?

I’ve noticed that many people suggest what is good and isn’t, but not everybody wants to spend that money even if they have it.

There’s a point where things are indeed overkill.

Yes screen readers  do take up more resources but all facts do need to be considered.

I mean look at me, I have got all of this power and if nothing will ever use it why should I  ever bother again?

 

John

 

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io On Behalf Of enes saribas
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 10:39 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

You do need and should get one if you have the disposable income to get one. There is definately many important performance improvements that have a quality of life impact. It makes all the difference in the world whetehr a file compresses iin 5 minutes versus 4 houtrrs, or whether word loads in 30 seconds or less than 1.

On 6/19/2021 5:08 PM, Gene wrote:

I’m not sure what you are saying.  I’m saying that I had no problem with heat using old machines going back to the nineties.  And I don’t know what you mean by the most basic of computer tasks.  I used machines from the early 2000’s to browse, stream, including from Youtube, record audio, word process, and copy backups to external drives.  My laptop is about eleven years old.  Even if my apartment is warm, eighty or eighty-five degrees, I have absolutely no trouble with heat doing the things I discuss, nor do I have problems with the other much older machines I have.  My fans do not race. 

 

I hope others enter into this conversation.  You just do not need a nine-hundred dollar machine if you are a typical computer user, though you seem, as I understand what you are saying, to be advocating that.

 

Gene

-----Original message-----

 

 

Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2021 4:04 PM

Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

Likewise, your experiences, or lack there of of heat doesn't represent everyone with older machines. It is well established that very old processors are underpowered for anything but the most basic of computing tasks, and generate tremendous amounts of heat. You would need to compare it to a brand new high powered laptop to really feel the difference.

On 6/19/2021 1:35 PM, Gene wrote:

I have never had a problem with heat and, though I don’t discount your experience, it cannot be assumed to be representative.  My laptop, an eleven year old machine, seldom has its fan run at anything but a slow speed and that is when I do most things I do, including streaming videos from Youtube. 

 

I have another old, by today’s standards very underpowered machine that runs XP.  I never had a heat problem and I would use it for Youtube.  I should also add that I have another old machine that runs XP and it too never had such a problem.  One person’s experience is not valid for generalization when discussing computer problems and performance.

 

If other people report similar experiences, I would take that into account but nothing in my experience supports your experience.

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2021 1:05 PM

Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

not only that, but heat generation too. My old Toshiba on dual core Haswell i5 would have fans scream even when watching youtube. But my Ryzen fifth gen is a much higher wattage part, but barely produces any heat, even under full load it isn't very bad. And more apps take advantage of multicore. Browsers for one, file encoders and compression tools, OCR software. But the number of things that take advantage will only grow as time passes. And right now fifth gen Ryzen surpasses Intel in even  in single core, and Intel is severely behind, on the desktop they backported a 10 nm  process to 14 nm, making rocket lake, dropping the number of cores on the 1900K by 2 to 8 from the 10 on the 10900K. If you read rocket lake i7 reviews, they are easily the worst processor reviews I have read ever.

On 6/19/2021 10:52 AM, John Holcomb II wrote:

 

Intel is still on the 14NM  process.

This moving to a smaller die size will help with power savings. AMD is killing it right now.

I’m not sure how many apps take advantage of multi-core though?

John

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io On Behalf Of enes saribas
Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2021 12:22 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

They also use newer processor technology, 7 nanometer vs 14 nanometer for Intel, don't have as many hardware side channel vulnerabilities, and also generate less heat for the same performance thanks to the newer processor technologies. They have substantially better multicore core performance as well.

On 6/18/2021 4:57 PM, John Holcomb II wrote:

M.2 SSDs will be on anything but the bottom of the crop when it comes to desktops.

Same with hyper threading.

But here’s another thought to consider.

For single core performance, AMD is  worth a look. They have something similar to hyper threading which I forget what its called now.

John

 

He’s right and I forgot about that.

Sent: Friday, June 18, 2021 5:46 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

I am not a tech but I doubt you have to worry about the case.  You seem to be worried that the problems you have with your computer are caused by heat.  there is no reason for that assumption. 

 

As has been asked, how do you intend to use your computer?  I know little about M2 slots but whether you have one may not matter to any extent depending on how you intend to use it.  My impression is that they are common on computers now but I am just stating an impression and I hope others discuss the question. 

 

I would imagine that other things you are worried about, hyperthreading, for example, are so standard in machines that are not bottom of the line that you probably don’t have to worry about whether a machine uyou buy has that ability.  I would imagine it is present in any machine that isn’t a bottom of the line budget machine.

 

As has been asked, how do you intend to use the machine?  I’ll ask further if you anticipate your uses changing to any significant extent over time.  After we know how you intend to use your machine, people can discuss such matters as price, power of machine, etc.  I think those questions of use are by far the most important in people advising you.

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Friday, June 18, 2021 3:59 PM

Subject: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

Well, I guess I am coming in to this decade I am finally going to upgrade my desktop after 7 or 8 years.  So do I have to tell them I want an  m2 slot or is there another term?  I ran the Belarc adviser and it said I did not have  hiper threaded with my cores. I read up that the hiper threaded makes them faster for the PC.  Everything else was intergraded on the mother board, sound, internet card, graphics card and  memory. It was all intel integrated. The first thing to go out on this machine was the sound about 1.5 years ago. I am wired in to the modem as the wireless is not that great .I have to use a USB cord to get my printer to print too. So I am not sure what went out that these do not work anymore unless I do it threw a cable. I know the Bluetooth still works as my keyboard and mouse still work with the dongle. Monitor port does not work but I just switched to a  USB monitor. I was just wondering if I can get a tower  casing that vents heat more evenly. Or are the tower cases different these days. Thanks everybody.

Heather

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


Re: decided to buy a new desktop

enes sarıbaş
 

Hi John,

The issue with thhis one is it has an AMD 3400 U processor. This processor is two generatyions behind. Though the 5000 series didn't bring a massive improvement, the 4000 generation sure did, and that was when AMD doubled core counts at higher segment among other things. I actually stuck with the underpowered Haswell laptop for another year to get a 4000 series instead of a 3000 for the extra performance, which is about 120% more.

On 6/20/2021 8:19 PM, John Holcomb II wrote:

Refurb is  not a bad way to go, in my opinion.

 

But if you don’t go refurb, here’s the cheapest one I I’d get new, from Best Buy.

Just by the specs, don’t believe the SSD is replaceable but the RAM is.

You can easily change this from Windows 10  in S mode to regular windows 10.

Dell Inspiron 15.6" FHD Touch Laptop -AMD Ryzen 5 8GB RAM 256 GB SSD Black i3505-A542BLK-PUS - Best Buy

 

John

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 9:07 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

I really doubt that a typical user needs to spend over 600 dollars for a laptop, and when you consider sales or manufacturer refurbished machines, that makes me even more skeptical.  Even if I am wrong about new laptops, I expect you can get a 700 dollar value or perhaps a little more by buying machines on good sale or a manufacturer refurbished machine. 

 

Also, this review is about fifteen months old.  You will see passages where it is stated that something isn’t as much the case any more.  If such things were changing then, there may be significantly more change now.

Here are two examples:

Regarding batteries:

Note that this is changing, though: in the past, we rarely found a laptop under $730 that offers more than six hours of real-world battery life. Now, some budget laptops can last you a full day.

And that was about sixteen months ago.

Regarding processors:

There was a time when budget laptops were universally equipped with low-cost Pentium and Celeron CPUs with at most dual-core designs. That’s not as true today, with many budget laptops utilizing Intel Core CPUs and AMD Ryzen 3000 quad, and even six-core CPUs in some cases. A modern 10th-gen Intel CPU, like that in the Acer Swift 3, for example, provides excellent performance across the board in both single-threaded and multi-threaded tasks.

Even so, you’re much more likely to get a faster quad-core (or even six- or eight-core) CPU by spending a few hundred dollars more. I’ll let those with much more technical knowledge than I have discuss this passage, but here again, if this was the case sixteen months ago, who knows what the case is now.

And regarding SSD drives, at what price point do they start in laptops?  it has been stated that most laptops have them now. 

 

 

Gene

 

Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 7:47 PM

Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

I am saying your price range of 600-700 for desktops is ok, but laptops the same level of quality on the unit goes for 800-100 or so as stated in the articles. As they are portable, you get less performance per dollar.

On 6/20/2021 7:45 PM, Gene wrote:

I’m not advocating using very slow computers. I don’t know about various processors and other technical matters in terms of acceptable speed.  But I’m writing about this because you may be giving people a really exaggerated sense of slowness at a price range where slowness wouldn’t be a problem.  What price computer are you talking about where a browser might take fifteen seconds to open?  Even on my laptop, eleven years old and moderately priced for its time, I can open browsers in something like three or four seconds.  I don’t have them go to a home page, which speeds up opening but if I had to wait fifteen secondes for a browser to open, I’d be very unhappy. 

 

And this is with a computer with a mechanical hard drive whereas it has been stated that most laptops now have SSD drives.  And considering that what you would get now for the same amount of money as eleven years ago would be faster and more powerful than what I got then, I think it is important to know what sorts of machines you are talking about, moderately priced machines, bottom of the line budget machines or something else? 

 

Gene

-----Original message-----

Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 7:18 PM

Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

That isn't correct though. 99% of people will feel speed matters. There is a poiunt where things are overkill, but an i7 or unllocked processor isn't where it begins. Look at it this way. If you open and close browsers each time, and it takes 15 seconds instead of less than 1, and you did this several dozen times a day, that is minutes off of your life you could be doing something better than sitting in front of youtr screen. And your processor isn't overpowered iether. If I recall that is only 4 core, rather underpowered compared to today's processors. Amd laptop processors easily exceed skylake desktop processor performance these days, and 10 will make your system more responsive, especially since the processor security patches don't mess up your SSD performance as much.

On 6/20/2021 12:24 PM, John Holcomb II wrote:

You have a point that Geen should if he has the money to do so, but consider Geen’s points if you will for a second.

What if Geen doesn’t have a job where that extra 30 seconds matters to him or his company?

What if  he has the money but would rather spend it on an experience doing something not tech related?

What if he doesn’t havce the money at all?

I’ve noticed that many people suggest what is good and isn’t, but not everybody wants to spend that money even if they have it.

There’s a point where things are indeed overkill.

Yes screen readers  do take up more resources but all facts do need to be considered.

I mean look at me, I have got all of this power and if nothing will ever use it why should I  ever bother again?

 

John

 

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io On Behalf Of enes saribas
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 10:39 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

You do need and should get one if you have the disposable income to get one. There is definately many important performance improvements that have a quality of life impact. It makes all the difference in the world whetehr a file compresses iin 5 minutes versus 4 houtrrs, or whether word loads in 30 seconds or less than 1.

On 6/19/2021 5:08 PM, Gene wrote:

I’m not sure what you are saying.  I’m saying that I had no problem with heat using old machines going back to the nineties.  And I don’t know what you mean by the most basic of computer tasks.  I used machines from the early 2000’s to browse, stream, including from Youtube, record audio, word process, and copy backups to external drives.  My laptop is about eleven years old.  Even if my apartment is warm, eighty or eighty-five degrees, I have absolutely no trouble with heat doing the things I discuss, nor do I have problems with the other much older machines I have.  My fans do not race. 

 

I hope others enter into this conversation.  You just do not need a nine-hundred dollar machine if you are a typical computer user, though you seem, as I understand what you are saying, to be advocating that.

 

Gene

-----Original message-----

 

 

Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2021 4:04 PM

Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

Likewise, your experiences, or lack there of of heat doesn't represent everyone with older machines. It is well established that very old processors are underpowered for anything but the most basic of computing tasks, and generate tremendous amounts of heat. You would need to compare it to a brand new high powered laptop to really feel the difference.

On 6/19/2021 1:35 PM, Gene wrote:

I have never had a problem with heat and, though I don’t discount your experience, it cannot be assumed to be representative.  My laptop, an eleven year old machine, seldom has its fan run at anything but a slow speed and that is when I do most things I do, including streaming videos from Youtube. 

 

I have another old, by today’s standards very underpowered machine that runs XP.  I never had a heat problem and I would use it for Youtube.  I should also add that I have another old machine that runs XP and it too never had such a problem.  One person’s experience is not valid for generalization when discussing computer problems and performance.

 

If other people report similar experiences, I would take that into account but nothing in my experience supports your experience.

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2021 1:05 PM

Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

not only that, but heat generation too. My old Toshiba on dual core Haswell i5 would have fans scream even when watching youtube. But my Ryzen fifth gen is a much higher wattage part, but barely produces any heat, even under full load it isn't very bad. And more apps take advantage of multicore. Browsers for one, file encoders and compression tools, OCR software. But the number of things that take advantage will only grow as time passes. And right now fifth gen Ryzen surpasses Intel in even  in single core, and Intel is severely behind, on the desktop they backported a 10 nm  process to 14 nm, making rocket lake, dropping the number of cores on the 1900K by 2 to 8 from the 10 on the 10900K. If you read rocket lake i7 reviews, they are easily the worst processor reviews I have read ever.

On 6/19/2021 10:52 AM, John Holcomb II wrote:

 

Intel is still on the 14NM  process.

This moving to a smaller die size will help with power savings. AMD is killing it right now.

I’m not sure how many apps take advantage of multi-core though?

John

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io On Behalf Of enes saribas
Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2021 12:22 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

They also use newer processor technology, 7 nanometer vs 14 nanometer for Intel, don't have as many hardware side channel vulnerabilities, and also generate less heat for the same performance thanks to the newer processor technologies. They have substantially better multicore core performance as well.

On 6/18/2021 4:57 PM, John Holcomb II wrote:

M.2 SSDs will be on anything but the bottom of the crop when it comes to desktops.

Same with hyper threading.

But here’s another thought to consider.

For single core performance, AMD is  worth a look. They have something similar to hyper threading which I forget what its called now.

John

 

He’s right and I forgot about that.

Sent: Friday, June 18, 2021 5:46 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

I am not a tech but I doubt you have to worry about the case.  You seem to be worried that the problems you have with your computer are caused by heat.  there is no reason for that assumption. 

 

As has been asked, how do you intend to use your computer?  I know little about M2 slots but whether you have one may not matter to any extent depending on how you intend to use it.  My impression is that they are common on computers now but I am just stating an impression and I hope others discuss the question. 

 

I would imagine that other things you are worried about, hyperthreading, for example, are so standard in machines that are not bottom of the line that you probably don’t have to worry about whether a machine uyou buy has that ability.  I would imagine it is present in any machine that isn’t a bottom of the line budget machine.

 

As has been asked, how do you intend to use the machine?  I’ll ask further if you anticipate your uses changing to any significant extent over time.  After we know how you intend to use your machine, people can discuss such matters as price, power of machine, etc.  I think those questions of use are by far the most important in people advising you.

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Friday, June 18, 2021 3:59 PM

Subject: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

Well, I guess I am coming in to this decade I am finally going to upgrade my desktop after 7 or 8 years.  So do I have to tell them I want an  m2 slot or is there another term?  I ran the Belarc adviser and it said I did not have  hiper threaded with my cores. I read up that the hiper threaded makes them faster for the PC.  Everything else was intergraded on the mother board, sound, internet card, graphics card and  memory. It was all intel integrated. The first thing to go out on this machine was the sound about 1.5 years ago. I am wired in to the modem as the wireless is not that great .I have to use a USB cord to get my printer to print too. So I am not sure what went out that these do not work anymore unless I do it threw a cable. I know the Bluetooth still works as my keyboard and mouse still work with the dongle. Monitor port does not work but I just switched to a  USB monitor. I was just wondering if I can get a tower  casing that vents heat more evenly. Or are the tower cases different these days. Thanks everybody.

Heather

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


Re: decided to buy a new desktop

John Holcomb II
 

Man has that changed.

My newest laptop is still duel core  only, just because what was it,  the 8th or 9th  generation that finally had people have more than 2 cores on a laptop?

John

 

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of enes saribas
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 9:42 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

Gene,

This hasn't changed. i3 are still bottom of the barrel, and lack standard features found in the i5. All Intel processors are 4 core, with the possuible exception of i3, and AMD processors go up to 6 core at the r5 level.

On 6/20/2021 8:07 PM, Gene wrote:

I really doubt that a typical user needs to spend over 600 dollars for a laptop, and when you consider sales or manufacturer refurbished machines, that makes me even more skeptical.  Even if I am wrong about new laptops, I expect you can get a 700 dollar value or perhaps a little more by buying machines on good sale or a manufacturer refurbished machine. 

 

Also, this review is about fifteen months old.  You will see passages where it is stated that something isn’t as much the case any more.  If such things were changing then, there may be significantly more change now.

Here are two examples:

Regarding batteries:

Note that this is changing, though: in the past, we rarely found a laptop under $730 that offers more than six hours of real-world battery life. Now, some budget laptops can last you a full day.

And that was about sixteen months ago.

Regarding processors:

There was a time when budget laptops were universally equipped with low-cost Pentium and Celeron CPUs with at most dual-core designs. That’s not as true today, with many budget laptops utilizing Intel Core CPUs and AMD Ryzen 3000 quad, and even six-core CPUs in some cases. A modern 10th-gen Intel CPU, like that in the Acer Swift 3, for example, provides excellent performance across the board in both single-threaded and multi-threaded tasks.

Even so, you’re much more likely to get a faster quad-core (or even six- or eight-core) CPU by spending a few hundred dollars more. I’ll let those with much more technical knowledge than I have discuss this passage, but here again, if this was the case sixteen months ago, who knows what the case is now.

And regarding SSD drives, at what price point do they start in laptops?  it has been stated that most laptops have them now. 

 

 

Gene

 

Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 7:47 PM

Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

I am saying your price range of 600-700 for desktops is ok, but laptops the same level of quality on the unit goes for 800-100 or so as stated in the articles. As they are portable, you get less performance per dollar.

On 6/20/2021 7:45 PM, Gene wrote:

I’m not advocating using very slow computers. I don’t know about various processors and other technical matters in terms of acceptable speed.  But I’m writing about this because you may be giving people a really exaggerated sense of slowness at a price range where slowness wouldn’t be a problem.  What price computer are you talking about where a browser might take fifteen seconds to open?  Even on my laptop, eleven years old and moderately priced for its time, I can open browsers in something like three or four seconds.  I don’t have them go to a home page, which speeds up opening but if I had to wait fifteen secondes for a browser to open, I’d be very unhappy. 

 

And this is with a computer with a mechanical hard drive whereas it has been stated that most laptops now have SSD drives.  And considering that what you would get now for the same amount of money as eleven years ago would be faster and more powerful than what I got then, I think it is important to know what sorts of machines you are talking about, moderately priced machines, bottom of the line budget machines or something else? 

 

Gene

-----Original message-----

Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 7:18 PM

Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

That isn't correct though. 99% of people will feel speed matters. There is a poiunt where things are overkill, but an i7 or unllocked processor isn't where it begins. Look at it this way. If you open and close browsers each time, and it takes 15 seconds instead of less than 1, and you did this several dozen times a day, that is minutes off of your life you could be doing something better than sitting in front of youtr screen. And your processor isn't overpowered iether. If I recall that is only 4 core, rather underpowered compared to today's processors. Amd laptop processors easily exceed skylake desktop processor performance these days, and 10 will make your system more responsive, especially since the processor security patches don't mess up your SSD performance as much.

On 6/20/2021 12:24 PM, John Holcomb II wrote:

You have a point that Geen should if he has the money to do so, but consider Geen’s points if you will for a second.

What if Geen doesn’t have a job where that extra 30 seconds matters to him or his company?

What if  he has the money but would rather spend it on an experience doing something not tech related?

What if he doesn’t havce the money at all?

I’ve noticed that many people suggest what is good and isn’t, but not everybody wants to spend that money even if they have it.

There’s a point where things are indeed overkill.

Yes screen readers  do take up more resources but all facts do need to be considered.

I mean look at me, I have got all of this power and if nothing will ever use it why should I  ever bother again?

 

John

 

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io On Behalf Of enes saribas
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 10:39 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

You do need and should get one if you have the disposable income to get one. There is definately many important performance improvements that have a quality of life impact. It makes all the difference in the world whetehr a file compresses iin 5 minutes versus 4 houtrrs, or whether word loads in 30 seconds or less than 1.

On 6/19/2021 5:08 PM, Gene wrote:

I’m not sure what you are saying.  I’m saying that I had no problem with heat using old machines going back to the nineties.  And I don’t know what you mean by the most basic of computer tasks.  I used machines from the early 2000’s to browse, stream, including from Youtube, record audio, word process, and copy backups to external drives.  My laptop is about eleven years old.  Even if my apartment is warm, eighty or eighty-five degrees, I have absolutely no trouble with heat doing the things I discuss, nor do I have problems with the other much older machines I have.  My fans do not race. 

 

I hope others enter into this conversation.  You just do not need a nine-hundred dollar machine if you are a typical computer user, though you seem, as I understand what you are saying, to be advocating that.

 

Gene

-----Original message-----

 

 

Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2021 4:04 PM

Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

Likewise, your experiences, or lack there of of heat doesn't represent everyone with older machines. It is well established that very old processors are underpowered for anything but the most basic of computing tasks, and generate tremendous amounts of heat. You would need to compare it to a brand new high powered laptop to really feel the difference.

On 6/19/2021 1:35 PM, Gene wrote:

I have never had a problem with heat and, though I don’t discount your experience, it cannot be assumed to be representative.  My laptop, an eleven year old machine, seldom has its fan run at anything but a slow speed and that is when I do most things I do, including streaming videos from Youtube. 

 

I have another old, by today’s standards very underpowered machine that runs XP.  I never had a heat problem and I would use it for Youtube.  I should also add that I have another old machine that runs XP and it too never had such a problem.  One person’s experience is not valid for generalization when discussing computer problems and performance.

 

If other people report similar experiences, I would take that into account but nothing in my experience supports your experience.

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2021 1:05 PM

Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

not only that, but heat generation too. My old Toshiba on dual core Haswell i5 would have fans scream even when watching youtube. But my Ryzen fifth gen is a much higher wattage part, but barely produces any heat, even under full load it isn't very bad. And more apps take advantage of multicore. Browsers for one, file encoders and compression tools, OCR software. But the number of things that take advantage will only grow as time passes. And right now fifth gen Ryzen surpasses Intel in even  in single core, and Intel is severely behind, on the desktop they backported a 10 nm  process to 14 nm, making rocket lake, dropping the number of cores on the 1900K by 2 to 8 from the 10 on the 10900K. If you read rocket lake i7 reviews, they are easily the worst processor reviews I have read ever.

On 6/19/2021 10:52 AM, John Holcomb II wrote:

 

Intel is still on the 14NM  process.

This moving to a smaller die size will help with power savings. AMD is killing it right now.

I’m not sure how many apps take advantage of multi-core though?

John

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io On Behalf Of enes saribas
Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2021 12:22 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

They also use newer processor technology, 7 nanometer vs 14 nanometer for Intel, don't have as many hardware side channel vulnerabilities, and also generate less heat for the same performance thanks to the newer processor technologies. They have substantially better multicore core performance as well.

On 6/18/2021 4:57 PM, John Holcomb II wrote:

M.2 SSDs will be on anything but the bottom of the crop when it comes to desktops.

Same with hyper threading.

But here’s another thought to consider.

For single core performance, AMD is  worth a look. They have something similar to hyper threading which I forget what its called now.

John

 

He’s right and I forgot about that.

Sent: Friday, June 18, 2021 5:46 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

I am not a tech but I doubt you have to worry about the case.  You seem to be worried that the problems you have with your computer are caused by heat.  there is no reason for that assumption. 

 

As has been asked, how do you intend to use your computer?  I know little about M2 slots but whether you have one may not matter to any extent depending on how you intend to use it.  My impression is that they are common on computers now but I am just stating an impression and I hope others discuss the question. 

 

I would imagine that other things you are worried about, hyperthreading, for example, are so standard in machines that are not bottom of the line that you probably don’t have to worry about whether a machine uyou buy has that ability.  I would imagine it is present in any machine that isn’t a bottom of the line budget machine.

 

As has been asked, how do you intend to use the machine?  I’ll ask further if you anticipate your uses changing to any significant extent over time.  After we know how you intend to use your machine, people can discuss such matters as price, power of machine, etc.  I think those questions of use are by far the most important in people advising you.

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Friday, June 18, 2021 3:59 PM

Subject: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

Well, I guess I am coming in to this decade I am finally going to upgrade my desktop after 7 or 8 years.  So do I have to tell them I want an  m2 slot or is there another term?  I ran the Belarc adviser and it said I did not have  hiper threaded with my cores. I read up that the hiper threaded makes them faster for the PC.  Everything else was intergraded on the mother board, sound, internet card, graphics card and  memory. It was all intel integrated. The first thing to go out on this machine was the sound about 1.5 years ago. I am wired in to the modem as the wireless is not that great .I have to use a USB cord to get my printer to print too. So I am not sure what went out that these do not work anymore unless I do it threw a cable. I know the Bluetooth still works as my keyboard and mouse still work with the dongle. Monitor port does not work but I just switched to a  USB monitor. I was just wondering if I can get a tower  casing that vents heat more evenly. Or are the tower cases different these days. Thanks everybody.

Heather

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


Re: decided to buy a new desktop

enes sarıbaş
 

Gene,

This hasn't changed. i3 are still bottom of the barrel, and lack standard features found in the i5. All Intel processors are 4 core, with the possuible exception of i3, and AMD processors go up to 6 core at the r5 level.

On 6/20/2021 8:07 PM, Gene wrote:
I really doubt that a typical user needs to spend over 600 dollars for a laptop, and when you consider sales or manufacturer refurbished machines, that makes me even more skeptical.  Even if I am wrong about new laptops, I expect you can get a 700 dollar value or perhaps a little more by buying machines on good sale or a manufacturer refurbished machine. 
 
Also, this review is about fifteen months old.  You will see passages where it is stated that something isn’t as much the case any more.  If such things were changing then, there may be significantly more change now.
Here are two examples:
Regarding batteries:
Note that this is changing, though: in the past, we rarely found a laptop under $730 that offers more than six hours of real-world battery life. Now, some budget laptops can last you a full day.
And that was about sixteen months ago.
Regarding processors:
There was a time when budget laptops were universally equipped with low-cost Pentium and Celeron CPUs with at most dual-core designs. That’s not as true today, with many budget laptops utilizing Intel Core CPUs and AMD Ryzen 3000 quad, and even six-core CPUs in some cases. A modern 10th-gen Intel CPU, like that in the Acer Swift 3, for example, provides excellent performance across the board in both single-threaded and multi-threaded tasks.
Even so, you’re much more likely to get a faster quad-core (or even six- or eight-core) CPU by spending a few hundred dollars more. I’ll let those with much more technical knowledge than I have discuss this passage, but here again, if this was the case sixteen months ago, who knows what the case is now.
And regarding SSD drives, at what price point do they start in laptops?  it has been stated that most laptops have them now. 
 
 
Gene
 
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 7:47 PM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop
 

I am saying your price range of 600-700 for desktops is ok, but laptops the same level of quality on the unit goes for 800-100 or so as stated in the articles. As they are portable, you get less performance per dollar.

On 6/20/2021 7:45 PM, Gene wrote:
I’m not advocating using very slow computers. I don’t know about various processors and other technical matters in terms of acceptable speed.  But I’m writing about this because you may be giving people a really exaggerated sense of slowness at a price range where slowness wouldn’t be a problem.  What price computer are you talking about where a browser might take fifteen seconds to open?  Even on my laptop, eleven years old and moderately priced for its time, I can open browsers in something like three or four seconds.  I don’t have them go to a home page, which speeds up opening but if I had to wait fifteen secondes for a browser to open, I’d be very unhappy. 
 
And this is with a computer with a mechanical hard drive whereas it has been stated that most laptops now have SSD drives.  And considering that what you would get now for the same amount of money as eleven years ago would be faster and more powerful than what I got then, I think it is important to know what sorts of machines you are talking about, moderately priced machines, bottom of the line budget machines or something else? 
 
Gene
-----Original message-----
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 7:18 PM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop
 

That isn't correct though. 99% of people will feel speed matters. There is a poiunt where things are overkill, but an i7 or unllocked processor isn't where it begins. Look at it this way. If you open and close browsers each time, and it takes 15 seconds instead of less than 1, and you did this several dozen times a day, that is minutes off of your life you could be doing something better than sitting in front of youtr screen. And your processor isn't overpowered iether. If I recall that is only 4 core, rather underpowered compared to today's processors. Amd laptop processors easily exceed skylake desktop processor performance these days, and 10 will make your system more responsive, especially since the processor security patches don't mess up your SSD performance as much.

On 6/20/2021 12:24 PM, John Holcomb II wrote:

You have a point that Geen should if he has the money to do so, but consider Geen’s points if you will for a second.

What if Geen doesn’t have a job where that extra 30 seconds matters to him or his company?

What if  he has the money but would rather spend it on an experience doing something not tech related?

What if he doesn’t havce the money at all?

I’ve noticed that many people suggest what is good and isn’t, but not everybody wants to spend that money even if they have it.

There’s a point where things are indeed overkill.

Yes screen readers  do take up more resources but all facts do need to be considered.

I mean look at me, I have got all of this power and if nothing will ever use it why should I  ever bother again?

 

John

 

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io On Behalf Of enes saribas
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 10:39 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

You do need and should get one if you have the disposable income to get one. There is definately many important performance improvements that have a quality of life impact. It makes all the difference in the world whetehr a file compresses iin 5 minutes versus 4 houtrrs, or whether word loads in 30 seconds or less than 1.

On 6/19/2021 5:08 PM, Gene wrote:

I’m not sure what you are saying.  I’m saying that I had no problem with heat using old machines going back to the nineties.  And I don’t know what you mean by the most basic of computer tasks.  I used machines from the early 2000’s to browse, stream, including from Youtube, record audio, word process, and copy backups to external drives.  My laptop is about eleven years old.  Even if my apartment is warm, eighty or eighty-five degrees, I have absolutely no trouble with heat doing the things I discuss, nor do I have problems with the other much older machines I have.  My fans do not race. 

 

I hope others enter into this conversation.  You just do not need a nine-hundred dollar machine if you are a typical computer user, though you seem, as I understand what you are saying, to be advocating that.

 

Gene

-----Original message-----

 

 

Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2021 4:04 PM

Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

Likewise, your experiences, or lack there of of heat doesn't represent everyone with older machines. It is well established that very old processors are underpowered for anything but the most basic of computing tasks, and generate tremendous amounts of heat. You would need to compare it to a brand new high powered laptop to really feel the difference.

On 6/19/2021 1:35 PM, Gene wrote:

I have never had a problem with heat and, though I don’t discount your experience, it cannot be assumed to be representative.  My laptop, an eleven year old machine, seldom has its fan run at anything but a slow speed and that is when I do most things I do, including streaming videos from Youtube. 

 

I have another old, by today’s standards very underpowered machine that runs XP.  I never had a heat problem and I would use it for Youtube.  I should also add that I have another old machine that runs XP and it too never had such a problem.  One person’s experience is not valid for generalization when discussing computer problems and performance.

 

If other people report similar experiences, I would take that into account but nothing in my experience supports your experience.

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2021 1:05 PM

Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

not only that, but heat generation too. My old Toshiba on dual core Haswell i5 would have fans scream even when watching youtube. But my Ryzen fifth gen is a much higher wattage part, but barely produces any heat, even under full load it isn't very bad. And more apps take advantage of multicore. Browsers for one, file encoders and compression tools, OCR software. But the number of things that take advantage will only grow as time passes. And right now fifth gen Ryzen surpasses Intel in even  in single core, and Intel is severely behind, on the desktop they backported a 10 nm  process to 14 nm, making rocket lake, dropping the number of cores on the 1900K by 2 to 8 from the 10 on the 10900K. If you read rocket lake i7 reviews, they are easily the worst processor reviews I have read ever.

On 6/19/2021 10:52 AM, John Holcomb II wrote:

 

Intel is still on the 14NM  process.

This moving to a smaller die size will help with power savings. AMD is killing it right now.

I’m not sure how many apps take advantage of multi-core though?

John

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io On Behalf Of enes saribas
Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2021 12:22 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

They also use newer processor technology, 7 nanometer vs 14 nanometer for Intel, don't have as many hardware side channel vulnerabilities, and also generate less heat for the same performance thanks to the newer processor technologies. They have substantially better multicore core performance as well.

On 6/18/2021 4:57 PM, John Holcomb II wrote:

M.2 SSDs will be on anything but the bottom of the crop when it comes to desktops.

Same with hyper threading.

But here’s another thought to consider.

For single core performance, AMD is  worth a look. They have something similar to hyper threading which I forget what its called now.

John

 

He’s right and I forgot about that.

Sent: Friday, June 18, 2021 5:46 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

I am not a tech but I doubt you have to worry about the case.  You seem to be worried that the problems you have with your computer are caused by heat.  there is no reason for that assumption. 

 

As has been asked, how do you intend to use your computer?  I know little about M2 slots but whether you have one may not matter to any extent depending on how you intend to use it.  My impression is that they are common on computers now but I am just stating an impression and I hope others discuss the question. 

 

I would imagine that other things you are worried about, hyperthreading, for example, are so standard in machines that are not bottom of the line that you probably don’t have to worry about whether a machine uyou buy has that ability.  I would imagine it is present in any machine that isn’t a bottom of the line budget machine.

 

As has been asked, how do you intend to use the machine?  I’ll ask further if you anticipate your uses changing to any significant extent over time.  After we know how you intend to use your machine, people can discuss such matters as price, power of machine, etc.  I think those questions of use are by far the most important in people advising you.

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Friday, June 18, 2021 3:59 PM

Subject: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

Well, I guess I am coming in to this decade I am finally going to upgrade my desktop after 7 or 8 years.  So do I have to tell them I want an  m2 slot or is there another term?  I ran the Belarc adviser and it said I did not have  hiper threaded with my cores. I read up that the hiper threaded makes them faster for the PC.  Everything else was intergraded on the mother board, sound, internet card, graphics card and  memory. It was all intel integrated. The first thing to go out on this machine was the sound about 1.5 years ago. I am wired in to the modem as the wireless is not that great .I have to use a USB cord to get my printer to print too. So I am not sure what went out that these do not work anymore unless I do it threw a cable. I know the Bluetooth still works as my keyboard and mouse still work with the dongle. Monitor port does not work but I just switched to a  USB monitor. I was just wondering if I can get a tower  casing that vents heat more evenly. Or are the tower cases different these days. Thanks everybody.

Heather

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


Re: decided to buy a new desktop

John Holcomb II
 

But this is if you really don’t have money to spend to get more RAM, preferably 16GB.

But see once you start clming that price  latter, you start getting faster better processors, that kinda thing.

John

 

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of John Holcomb II via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 9:20 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

Refurb is  not a bad way to go, in my opinion.

 

But if you don’t go refurb, here’s the cheapest one I I’d get new, from Best Buy.

Just by the specs, don’t believe the SSD is replaceable but the RAM is.

You can easily change this from Windows 10  in S mode to regular windows 10.

Dell Inspiron 15.6" FHD Touch Laptop -AMD Ryzen 5 8GB RAM 256 GB SSD Black i3505-A542BLK-PUS - Best Buy

 

John

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 9:07 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

I really doubt that a typical user needs to spend over 600 dollars for a laptop, and when you consider sales or manufacturer refurbished machines, that makes me even more skeptical.  Even if I am wrong about new laptops, I expect you can get a 700 dollar value or perhaps a little more by buying machines on good sale or a manufacturer refurbished machine. 

 

Also, this review is about fifteen months old.  You will see passages where it is stated that something isn’t as much the case any more.  If such things were changing then, there may be significantly more change now.

Here are two examples:

Regarding batteries:

Note that this is changing, though: in the past, we rarely found a laptop under $730 that offers more than six hours of real-world battery life. Now, some budget laptops can last you a full day.

And that was about sixteen months ago.

Regarding processors:

There was a time when budget laptops were universally equipped with low-cost Pentium and Celeron CPUs with at most dual-core designs. That’s not as true today, with many budget laptops utilizing Intel Core CPUs and AMD Ryzen 3000 quad, and even six-core CPUs in some cases. A modern 10th-gen Intel CPU, like that in the Acer Swift 3, for example, provides excellent performance across the board in both single-threaded and multi-threaded tasks.

Even so, you’re much more likely to get a faster quad-core (or even six- or eight-core) CPU by spending a few hundred dollars more. I’ll let those with much more technical knowledge than I have discuss this passage, but here again, if this was the case sixteen months ago, who knows what the case is now.

And regarding SSD drives, at what price point do they start in laptops?  it has been stated that most laptops have them now. 

 

 

Gene

 

Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 7:47 PM

Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

I am saying your price range of 600-700 for desktops is ok, but laptops the same level of quality on the unit goes for 800-100 or so as stated in the articles. As they are portable, you get less performance per dollar.

On 6/20/2021 7:45 PM, Gene wrote:

I’m not advocating using very slow computers. I don’t know about various processors and other technical matters in terms of acceptable speed.  But I’m writing about this because you may be giving people a really exaggerated sense of slowness at a price range where slowness wouldn’t be a problem.  What price computer are you talking about where a browser might take fifteen seconds to open?  Even on my laptop, eleven years old and moderately priced for its time, I can open browsers in something like three or four seconds.  I don’t have them go to a home page, which speeds up opening but if I had to wait fifteen secondes for a browser to open, I’d be very unhappy. 

 

And this is with a computer with a mechanical hard drive whereas it has been stated that most laptops now have SSD drives.  And considering that what you would get now for the same amount of money as eleven years ago would be faster and more powerful than what I got then, I think it is important to know what sorts of machines you are talking about, moderately priced machines, bottom of the line budget machines or something else? 

 

Gene

-----Original message-----

Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 7:18 PM

Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

That isn't correct though. 99% of people will feel speed matters. There is a poiunt where things are overkill, but an i7 or unllocked processor isn't where it begins. Look at it this way. If you open and close browsers each time, and it takes 15 seconds instead of less than 1, and you did this several dozen times a day, that is minutes off of your life you could be doing something better than sitting in front of youtr screen. And your processor isn't overpowered iether. If I recall that is only 4 core, rather underpowered compared to today's processors. Amd laptop processors easily exceed skylake desktop processor performance these days, and 10 will make your system more responsive, especially since the processor security patches don't mess up your SSD performance as much.

On 6/20/2021 12:24 PM, John Holcomb II wrote:

You have a point that Geen should if he has the money to do so, but consider Geen’s points if you will for a second.

What if Geen doesn’t have a job where that extra 30 seconds matters to him or his company?

What if  he has the money but would rather spend it on an experience doing something not tech related?

What if he doesn’t havce the money at all?

I’ve noticed that many people suggest what is good and isn’t, but not everybody wants to spend that money even if they have it.

There’s a point where things are indeed overkill.

Yes screen readers  do take up more resources but all facts do need to be considered.

I mean look at me, I have got all of this power and if nothing will ever use it why should I  ever bother again?

 

John

 

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io On Behalf Of enes saribas
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 10:39 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

You do need and should get one if you have the disposable income to get one. There is definately many important performance improvements that have a quality of life impact. It makes all the difference in the world whetehr a file compresses iin 5 minutes versus 4 houtrrs, or whether word loads in 30 seconds or less than 1.

On 6/19/2021 5:08 PM, Gene wrote:

I’m not sure what you are saying.  I’m saying that I had no problem with heat using old machines going back to the nineties.  And I don’t know what you mean by the most basic of computer tasks.  I used machines from the early 2000’s to browse, stream, including from Youtube, record audio, word process, and copy backups to external drives.  My laptop is about eleven years old.  Even if my apartment is warm, eighty or eighty-five degrees, I have absolutely no trouble with heat doing the things I discuss, nor do I have problems with the other much older machines I have.  My fans do not race. 

 

I hope others enter into this conversation.  You just do not need a nine-hundred dollar machine if you are a typical computer user, though you seem, as I understand what you are saying, to be advocating that.

 

Gene

-----Original message-----

 

 

Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2021 4:04 PM

Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

Likewise, your experiences, or lack there of of heat doesn't represent everyone with older machines. It is well established that very old processors are underpowered for anything but the most basic of computing tasks, and generate tremendous amounts of heat. You would need to compare it to a brand new high powered laptop to really feel the difference.

On 6/19/2021 1:35 PM, Gene wrote:

I have never had a problem with heat and, though I don’t discount your experience, it cannot be assumed to be representative.  My laptop, an eleven year old machine, seldom has its fan run at anything but a slow speed and that is when I do most things I do, including streaming videos from Youtube. 

 

I have another old, by today’s standards very underpowered machine that runs XP.  I never had a heat problem and I would use it for Youtube.  I should also add that I have another old machine that runs XP and it too never had such a problem.  One person’s experience is not valid for generalization when discussing computer problems and performance.

 

If other people report similar experiences, I would take that into account but nothing in my experience supports your experience.

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2021 1:05 PM

Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

not only that, but heat generation too. My old Toshiba on dual core Haswell i5 would have fans scream even when watching youtube. But my Ryzen fifth gen is a much higher wattage part, but barely produces any heat, even under full load it isn't very bad. And more apps take advantage of multicore. Browsers for one, file encoders and compression tools, OCR software. But the number of things that take advantage will only grow as time passes. And right now fifth gen Ryzen surpasses Intel in even  in single core, and Intel is severely behind, on the desktop they backported a 10 nm  process to 14 nm, making rocket lake, dropping the number of cores on the 1900K by 2 to 8 from the 10 on the 10900K. If you read rocket lake i7 reviews, they are easily the worst processor reviews I have read ever.

On 6/19/2021 10:52 AM, John Holcomb II wrote:

 

Intel is still on the 14NM  process.

This moving to a smaller die size will help with power savings. AMD is killing it right now.

I’m not sure how many apps take advantage of multi-core though?

John

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io On Behalf Of enes saribas
Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2021 12:22 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

They also use newer processor technology, 7 nanometer vs 14 nanometer for Intel, don't have as many hardware side channel vulnerabilities, and also generate less heat for the same performance thanks to the newer processor technologies. They have substantially better multicore core performance as well.

On 6/18/2021 4:57 PM, John Holcomb II wrote:

M.2 SSDs will be on anything but the bottom of the crop when it comes to desktops.

Same with hyper threading.

But here’s another thought to consider.

For single core performance, AMD is  worth a look. They have something similar to hyper threading which I forget what its called now.

John

 

He’s right and I forgot about that.

Sent: Friday, June 18, 2021 5:46 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

I am not a tech but I doubt you have to worry about the case.  You seem to be worried that the problems you have with your computer are caused by heat.  there is no reason for that assumption. 

 

As has been asked, how do you intend to use your computer?  I know little about M2 slots but whether you have one may not matter to any extent depending on how you intend to use it.  My impression is that they are common on computers now but I am just stating an impression and I hope others discuss the question. 

 

I would imagine that other things you are worried about, hyperthreading, for example, are so standard in machines that are not bottom of the line that you probably don’t have to worry about whether a machine uyou buy has that ability.  I would imagine it is present in any machine that isn’t a bottom of the line budget machine.

 

As has been asked, how do you intend to use the machine?  I’ll ask further if you anticipate your uses changing to any significant extent over time.  After we know how you intend to use your machine, people can discuss such matters as price, power of machine, etc.  I think those questions of use are by far the most important in people advising you.

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Friday, June 18, 2021 3:59 PM

Subject: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

Well, I guess I am coming in to this decade I am finally going to upgrade my desktop after 7 or 8 years.  So do I have to tell them I want an  m2 slot or is there another term?  I ran the Belarc adviser and it said I did not have  hiper threaded with my cores. I read up that the hiper threaded makes them faster for the PC.  Everything else was intergraded on the mother board, sound, internet card, graphics card and  memory. It was all intel integrated. The first thing to go out on this machine was the sound about 1.5 years ago. I am wired in to the modem as the wireless is not that great .I have to use a USB cord to get my printer to print too. So I am not sure what went out that these do not work anymore unless I do it threw a cable. I know the Bluetooth still works as my keyboard and mouse still work with the dongle. Monitor port does not work but I just switched to a  USB monitor. I was just wondering if I can get a tower  casing that vents heat more evenly. Or are the tower cases different these days. Thanks everybody.

Heather

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


Re: decided to buy a new desktop

John Holcomb II
 

Refurb is  not a bad way to go, in my opinion.

 

But if you don’t go refurb, here’s the cheapest one I I’d get new, from Best Buy.

Just by the specs, don’t believe the SSD is replaceable but the RAM is.

You can easily change this from Windows 10  in S mode to regular windows 10.

Dell Inspiron 15.6" FHD Touch Laptop -AMD Ryzen 5 8GB RAM 256 GB SSD Black i3505-A542BLK-PUS - Best Buy

 

John

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 9:07 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

I really doubt that a typical user needs to spend over 600 dollars for a laptop, and when you consider sales or manufacturer refurbished machines, that makes me even more skeptical.  Even if I am wrong about new laptops, I expect you can get a 700 dollar value or perhaps a little more by buying machines on good sale or a manufacturer refurbished machine. 

 

Also, this review is about fifteen months old.  You will see passages where it is stated that something isn’t as much the case any more.  If such things were changing then, there may be significantly more change now.

Here are two examples:

Regarding batteries:

Note that this is changing, though: in the past, we rarely found a laptop under $730 that offers more than six hours of real-world battery life. Now, some budget laptops can last you a full day.

And that was about sixteen months ago.

Regarding processors:

There was a time when budget laptops were universally equipped with low-cost Pentium and Celeron CPUs with at most dual-core designs. That’s not as true today, with many budget laptops utilizing Intel Core CPUs and AMD Ryzen 3000 quad, and even six-core CPUs in some cases. A modern 10th-gen Intel CPU, like that in the Acer Swift 3, for example, provides excellent performance across the board in both single-threaded and multi-threaded tasks.

Even so, you’re much more likely to get a faster quad-core (or even six- or eight-core) CPU by spending a few hundred dollars more. I’ll let those with much more technical knowledge than I have discuss this passage, but here again, if this was the case sixteen months ago, who knows what the case is now.

And regarding SSD drives, at what price point do they start in laptops?  it has been stated that most laptops have them now. 

 

 

Gene

 

Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 7:47 PM

Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

I am saying your price range of 600-700 for desktops is ok, but laptops the same level of quality on the unit goes for 800-100 or so as stated in the articles. As they are portable, you get less performance per dollar.

On 6/20/2021 7:45 PM, Gene wrote:

I’m not advocating using very slow computers. I don’t know about various processors and other technical matters in terms of acceptable speed.  But I’m writing about this because you may be giving people a really exaggerated sense of slowness at a price range where slowness wouldn’t be a problem.  What price computer are you talking about where a browser might take fifteen seconds to open?  Even on my laptop, eleven years old and moderately priced for its time, I can open browsers in something like three or four seconds.  I don’t have them go to a home page, which speeds up opening but if I had to wait fifteen secondes for a browser to open, I’d be very unhappy. 

 

And this is with a computer with a mechanical hard drive whereas it has been stated that most laptops now have SSD drives.  And considering that what you would get now for the same amount of money as eleven years ago would be faster and more powerful than what I got then, I think it is important to know what sorts of machines you are talking about, moderately priced machines, bottom of the line budget machines or something else? 

 

Gene

-----Original message-----

Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 7:18 PM

Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

That isn't correct though. 99% of people will feel speed matters. There is a poiunt where things are overkill, but an i7 or unllocked processor isn't where it begins. Look at it this way. If you open and close browsers each time, and it takes 15 seconds instead of less than 1, and you did this several dozen times a day, that is minutes off of your life you could be doing something better than sitting in front of youtr screen. And your processor isn't overpowered iether. If I recall that is only 4 core, rather underpowered compared to today's processors. Amd laptop processors easily exceed skylake desktop processor performance these days, and 10 will make your system more responsive, especially since the processor security patches don't mess up your SSD performance as much.

On 6/20/2021 12:24 PM, John Holcomb II wrote:

You have a point that Geen should if he has the money to do so, but consider Geen’s points if you will for a second.

What if Geen doesn’t have a job where that extra 30 seconds matters to him or his company?

What if  he has the money but would rather spend it on an experience doing something not tech related?

What if he doesn’t havce the money at all?

I’ve noticed that many people suggest what is good and isn’t, but not everybody wants to spend that money even if they have it.

There’s a point where things are indeed overkill.

Yes screen readers  do take up more resources but all facts do need to be considered.

I mean look at me, I have got all of this power and if nothing will ever use it why should I  ever bother again?

 

John

 

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io On Behalf Of enes saribas
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 10:39 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

You do need and should get one if you have the disposable income to get one. There is definately many important performance improvements that have a quality of life impact. It makes all the difference in the world whetehr a file compresses iin 5 minutes versus 4 houtrrs, or whether word loads in 30 seconds or less than 1.

On 6/19/2021 5:08 PM, Gene wrote:

I’m not sure what you are saying.  I’m saying that I had no problem with heat using old machines going back to the nineties.  And I don’t know what you mean by the most basic of computer tasks.  I used machines from the early 2000’s to browse, stream, including from Youtube, record audio, word process, and copy backups to external drives.  My laptop is about eleven years old.  Even if my apartment is warm, eighty or eighty-five degrees, I have absolutely no trouble with heat doing the things I discuss, nor do I have problems with the other much older machines I have.  My fans do not race. 

 

I hope others enter into this conversation.  You just do not need a nine-hundred dollar machine if you are a typical computer user, though you seem, as I understand what you are saying, to be advocating that.

 

Gene

-----Original message-----

 

 

Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2021 4:04 PM

Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

Likewise, your experiences, or lack there of of heat doesn't represent everyone with older machines. It is well established that very old processors are underpowered for anything but the most basic of computing tasks, and generate tremendous amounts of heat. You would need to compare it to a brand new high powered laptop to really feel the difference.

On 6/19/2021 1:35 PM, Gene wrote:

I have never had a problem with heat and, though I don’t discount your experience, it cannot be assumed to be representative.  My laptop, an eleven year old machine, seldom has its fan run at anything but a slow speed and that is when I do most things I do, including streaming videos from Youtube. 

 

I have another old, by today’s standards very underpowered machine that runs XP.  I never had a heat problem and I would use it for Youtube.  I should also add that I have another old machine that runs XP and it too never had such a problem.  One person’s experience is not valid for generalization when discussing computer problems and performance.

 

If other people report similar experiences, I would take that into account but nothing in my experience supports your experience.

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2021 1:05 PM

Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

not only that, but heat generation too. My old Toshiba on dual core Haswell i5 would have fans scream even when watching youtube. But my Ryzen fifth gen is a much higher wattage part, but barely produces any heat, even under full load it isn't very bad. And more apps take advantage of multicore. Browsers for one, file encoders and compression tools, OCR software. But the number of things that take advantage will only grow as time passes. And right now fifth gen Ryzen surpasses Intel in even  in single core, and Intel is severely behind, on the desktop they backported a 10 nm  process to 14 nm, making rocket lake, dropping the number of cores on the 1900K by 2 to 8 from the 10 on the 10900K. If you read rocket lake i7 reviews, they are easily the worst processor reviews I have read ever.

On 6/19/2021 10:52 AM, John Holcomb II wrote:

 

Intel is still on the 14NM  process.

This moving to a smaller die size will help with power savings. AMD is killing it right now.

I’m not sure how many apps take advantage of multi-core though?

John

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io On Behalf Of enes saribas
Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2021 12:22 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

They also use newer processor technology, 7 nanometer vs 14 nanometer for Intel, don't have as many hardware side channel vulnerabilities, and also generate less heat for the same performance thanks to the newer processor technologies. They have substantially better multicore core performance as well.

On 6/18/2021 4:57 PM, John Holcomb II wrote:

M.2 SSDs will be on anything but the bottom of the crop when it comes to desktops.

Same with hyper threading.

But here’s another thought to consider.

For single core performance, AMD is  worth a look. They have something similar to hyper threading which I forget what its called now.

John

 

He’s right and I forgot about that.

Sent: Friday, June 18, 2021 5:46 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

I am not a tech but I doubt you have to worry about the case.  You seem to be worried that the problems you have with your computer are caused by heat.  there is no reason for that assumption. 

 

As has been asked, how do you intend to use your computer?  I know little about M2 slots but whether you have one may not matter to any extent depending on how you intend to use it.  My impression is that they are common on computers now but I am just stating an impression and I hope others discuss the question. 

 

I would imagine that other things you are worried about, hyperthreading, for example, are so standard in machines that are not bottom of the line that you probably don’t have to worry about whether a machine uyou buy has that ability.  I would imagine it is present in any machine that isn’t a bottom of the line budget machine.

 

As has been asked, how do you intend to use the machine?  I’ll ask further if you anticipate your uses changing to any significant extent over time.  After we know how you intend to use your machine, people can discuss such matters as price, power of machine, etc.  I think those questions of use are by far the most important in people advising you.

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Friday, June 18, 2021 3:59 PM

Subject: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

Well, I guess I am coming in to this decade I am finally going to upgrade my desktop after 7 or 8 years.  So do I have to tell them I want an  m2 slot or is there another term?  I ran the Belarc adviser and it said I did not have  hiper threaded with my cores. I read up that the hiper threaded makes them faster for the PC.  Everything else was intergraded on the mother board, sound, internet card, graphics card and  memory. It was all intel integrated. The first thing to go out on this machine was the sound about 1.5 years ago. I am wired in to the modem as the wireless is not that great .I have to use a USB cord to get my printer to print too. So I am not sure what went out that these do not work anymore unless I do it threw a cable. I know the Bluetooth still works as my keyboard and mouse still work with the dongle. Monitor port does not work but I just switched to a  USB monitor. I was just wondering if I can get a tower  casing that vents heat more evenly. Or are the tower cases different these days. Thanks everybody.

Heather

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


Re: decided to buy a new desktop

enes sarıbaş
 

Again, 400 is an inadequate price point for a desktop. A good processor alone would  cost nearly that much. Not to mention motherboard, power supply. This would be solidly budget machine built with budget components.

On 6/20/2021 7:48 PM, Gene wrote:
I don’t have the technical knowledge to compare, but my impression has been that desktops, as you say, are cheaper for the same performance.  But if your ratio is more or less correct, then I would think that something like a 400 dollar desktop or a roughly six hundred dollar laptop would both serve typical users well. 
 
Gene
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 7:14 PM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop
 
Gene remember though the pricepoints for desktops and laptops are totally different. A 600-700 machine for a desktop is around 900 or more for a laptop to achieve a similar level of performance. And desktops are indeed more durable, even more so for quality components. You can literally swap out the motherboard and processor if it gets too slow.
On 6/20/2021 1:00 PM, Gene wrote:
If you are saying that if you have all sorts of power so your machine isn’t working as hard and will last longer, I consider that very questionable.  Perhaps with an underpowered machine the machine working harder and producing more heat might shorten its life, but I doubt that having too much power would cause a machine to last longer.  And then, there is the cost.  If I spend six or seven hundred dollars for a machine and I use it seven or eight years, then I buy another one, if I want the same rough amount of power, it will cost less, perhaps much less.  I may be paying for two machines of the power I will be using in order to try to make one machine last longer.
 
Gene
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 12:19 PM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop
 

Why not?

I have al of this power. What is the point if nothing will use it ?

I’d like to think because I have all of this power and can do all of these cores and  threading, that it’d run longer with things taking advantage of this.

John

 

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io On Behalf Of enes saribas
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 8:47 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

Hi,

That is still a good machine I would think. A friend has a similar processor, the i7 6700 K if I remember right, and he said it is still mostly fast. And no unfortunately screen readers don't take advantage of multicore, and probably never will according to discussion on the NVDA group.

On 6/19/2021 4:43 PM, John Holcomb II wrote:

Yeah… When I bought this in 2017 AMD wasn’t in the game yet or I wouldn’t have bought this.

Do  our screen readers and Windows take advantage of multi-core processors yet I wonder?

Mine is overkill I know, but I’ll probably keep it until it becomes too slow.

Whitebox

3.75 gigahertz Intel Core i7-6950X

ASUSTeK COMPUTER INC. SABERTOOTH X99 Rev 1.xx

64GB DDR4 ram.

I forget which ram I put in here.

I plan to put an M.2 SSD in here next and upgrade to I guess it’ll be Windows 11? As right now I’m on a spinning Western Digital Red on Windows 7.

This will be much better when I put an M.2 in here I’m sure!

The graphics is a Nvidia GForce 210

John

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io On Behalf Of enes saribas
Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2021 2:05 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

not only that, but heat generation too. My old Toshiba on dual core Haswell i5 would have fans scream even when watching youtube. But my Ryzen fifth gen is a much higher wattage part, but barely produces any heat, even under full load it isn't very bad. And more apps take advantage of multicore. Browsers for one, file encoders and compression tools, OCR software. But the number of things that take advantage will only grow as time passes. And right now fifth gen Ryzen surpasses Intel in even  in single core, and Intel is severely behind, on the desktop they backported a 10 nm  process to 14 nm, making rocket lake, dropping the number of cores on the 1900K by 2 to 8 from the 10 on the 10900K. If you read rocket lake i7 reviews, they are easily the worst processor reviews I have read ever.

On 6/19/2021 10:52 AM, John Holcomb II wrote:

 

Intel is still on the 14NM  process.

This moving to a smaller die size will help with power savings. AMD is killing it right now.

I’m not sure how many apps take advantage of multi-core though?

John

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io On Behalf Of enes saribas
Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2021 12:22 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

They also use newer processor technology, 7 nanometer vs 14 nanometer for Intel, don't have as many hardware side channel vulnerabilities, and also generate less heat for the same performance thanks to the newer processor technologies. They have substantially better multicore core performance as well.

On 6/18/2021 4:57 PM, John Holcomb II wrote:

M.2 SSDs will be on anything but the bottom of the crop when it comes to desktops.

Same with hyper threading.

But here’s another thought to consider.

For single core performance, AMD is  worth a look. They have something similar to hyper threading which I forget what its called now.

John

 

He’s right and I forgot about that.

Sent: Friday, June 18, 2021 5:46 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

I am not a tech but I doubt you have to worry about the case.  You seem to be worried that the problems you have with your computer are caused by heat.  there is no reason for that assumption. 

 

As has been asked, how do you intend to use your computer?  I know little about M2 slots but whether you have one may not matter to any extent depending on how you intend to use it.  My impression is that they are common on computers now but I am just stating an impression and I hope others discuss the question. 

 

I would imagine that other things you are worried about, hyperthreading, for example, are so standard in machines that are not bottom of the line that you probably don’t have to worry about whether a machine uyou buy has that ability.  I would imagine it is present in any machine that isn’t a bottom of the line budget machine.

 

As has been asked, how do you intend to use the machine?  I’ll ask further if you anticipate your uses changing to any significant extent over time.  After we know how you intend to use your machine, people can discuss such matters as price, power of machine, etc.  I think those questions of use are by far the most important in people advising you.

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Friday, June 18, 2021 3:59 PM

Subject: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

Well, I guess I am coming in to this decade I am finally going to upgrade my desktop after 7 or 8 years.  So do I have to tell them I want an  m2 slot or is there another term?  I ran the Belarc adviser and it said I did not have  hiper threaded with my cores. I read up that the hiper threaded makes them faster for the PC.  Everything else was intergraded on the mother board, sound, internet card, graphics card and  memory. It was all intel integrated. The first thing to go out on this machine was the sound about 1.5 years ago. I am wired in to the modem as the wireless is not that great .I have to use a USB cord to get my printer to print too. So I am not sure what went out that these do not work anymore unless I do it threw a cable. I know the Bluetooth still works as my keyboard and mouse still work with the dongle. Monitor port does not work but I just switched to a  USB monitor. I was just wondering if I can get a tower  casing that vents heat more evenly. Or are the tower cases different these days. Thanks everybody.

Heather

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


Re: decided to buy a new desktop

Chris Nova <chris@...>
 

I just picked up an HP Desktop renewed from Amazon with a 3.2ghz processor, 16gb ram, 256GB ssd and 1`1TB spinning drive for $250.00.

 

It isn’t the fastest computer on the block but it works quite nicely.

 

Sent from a SuperNova!

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 8:49 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

I don’t have the technical knowledge to compare, but my impression has been that desktops, as you say, are cheaper for the same performance.  But if your ratio is more or less correct, then I would think that something like a 400 dollar desktop or a roughly six hundred dollar laptop would both serve typical users well. 

 

Gene

Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 7:14 PM

Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

Gene remember though the pricepoints for desktops and laptops are totally different. A 600-700 machine for a desktop is around 900 or more for a laptop to achieve a similar level of performance. And desktops are indeed more durable, even more so for quality components. You can literally swap out the motherboard and processor if it gets too slow.

On 6/20/2021 1:00 PM, Gene wrote:

If you are saying that if you have all sorts of power so your machine isn’t working as hard and will last longer, I consider that very questionable.  Perhaps with an underpowered machine the machine working harder and producing more heat might shorten its life, but I doubt that having too much power would cause a machine to last longer.  And then, there is the cost.  If I spend six or seven hundred dollars for a machine and I use it seven or eight years, then I buy another one, if I want the same rough amount of power, it will cost less, perhaps much less.  I may be paying for two machines of the power I will be using in order to try to make one machine last longer.

 

Gene

Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 12:19 PM

Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

Why not?

I have al of this power. What is the point if nothing will use it ?

I’d like to think because I have all of this power and can do all of these cores and  threading, that it’d run longer with things taking advantage of this.

John

 

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io On Behalf Of enes saribas
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 8:47 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

Hi,

That is still a good machine I would think. A friend has a similar processor, the i7 6700 K if I remember right, and he said it is still mostly fast. And no unfortunately screen readers don't take advantage of multicore, and probably never will according to discussion on the NVDA group.

On 6/19/2021 4:43 PM, John Holcomb II wrote:

Yeah… When I bought this in 2017 AMD wasn’t in the game yet or I wouldn’t have bought this.

Do  our screen readers and Windows take advantage of multi-core processors yet I wonder?

Mine is overkill I know, but I’ll probably keep it until it becomes too slow.

Whitebox

3.75 gigahertz Intel Core i7-6950X

ASUSTeK COMPUTER INC. SABERTOOTH X99 Rev 1.xx

64GB DDR4 ram.

I forget which ram I put in here.

I plan to put an M.2 SSD in here next and upgrade to I guess it’ll be Windows 11? As right now I’m on a spinning Western Digital Red on Windows 7.

This will be much better when I put an M.2 in here I’m sure!

The graphics is a Nvidia GForce 210

John

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io On Behalf Of enes saribas
Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2021 2:05 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

not only that, but heat generation too. My old Toshiba on dual core Haswell i5 would have fans scream even when watching youtube. But my Ryzen fifth gen is a much higher wattage part, but barely produces any heat, even under full load it isn't very bad. And more apps take advantage of multicore. Browsers for one, file encoders and compression tools, OCR software. But the number of things that take advantage will only grow as time passes. And right now fifth gen Ryzen surpasses Intel in even  in single core, and Intel is severely behind, on the desktop they backported a 10 nm  process to 14 nm, making rocket lake, dropping the number of cores on the 1900K by 2 to 8 from the 10 on the 10900K. If you read rocket lake i7 reviews, they are easily the worst processor reviews I have read ever.

On 6/19/2021 10:52 AM, John Holcomb II wrote:

 

Intel is still on the 14NM  process.

This moving to a smaller die size will help with power savings. AMD is killing it right now.

I’m not sure how many apps take advantage of multi-core though?

John

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io On Behalf Of enes saribas
Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2021 12:22 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

They also use newer processor technology, 7 nanometer vs 14 nanometer for Intel, don't have as many hardware side channel vulnerabilities, and also generate less heat for the same performance thanks to the newer processor technologies. They have substantially better multicore core performance as well.

On 6/18/2021 4:57 PM, John Holcomb II wrote:

M.2 SSDs will be on anything but the bottom of the crop when it comes to desktops.

Same with hyper threading.

But here’s another thought to consider.

For single core performance, AMD is  worth a look. They have something similar to hyper threading which I forget what its called now.

John

 

He’s right and I forgot about that.

Sent: Friday, June 18, 2021 5:46 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

I am not a tech but I doubt you have to worry about the case.  You seem to be worried that the problems you have with your computer are caused by heat.  there is no reason for that assumption. 

 

As has been asked, how do you intend to use your computer?  I know little about M2 slots but whether you have one may not matter to any extent depending on how you intend to use it.  My impression is that they are common on computers now but I am just stating an impression and I hope others discuss the question. 

 

I would imagine that other things you are worried about, hyperthreading, for example, are so standard in machines that are not bottom of the line that you probably don’t have to worry about whether a machine uyou buy has that ability.  I would imagine it is present in any machine that isn’t a bottom of the line budget machine.

 

As has been asked, how do you intend to use the machine?  I’ll ask further if you anticipate your uses changing to any significant extent over time.  After we know how you intend to use your machine, people can discuss such matters as price, power of machine, etc.  I think those questions of use are by far the most important in people advising you.

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Friday, June 18, 2021 3:59 PM

Subject: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

Well, I guess I am coming in to this decade I am finally going to upgrade my desktop after 7 or 8 years.  So do I have to tell them I want an  m2 slot or is there another term?  I ran the Belarc adviser and it said I did not have  hiper threaded with my cores. I read up that the hiper threaded makes them faster for the PC.  Everything else was intergraded on the mother board, sound, internet card, graphics card and  memory. It was all intel integrated. The first thing to go out on this machine was the sound about 1.5 years ago. I am wired in to the modem as the wireless is not that great .I have to use a USB cord to get my printer to print too. So I am not sure what went out that these do not work anymore unless I do it threw a cable. I know the Bluetooth still works as my keyboard and mouse still work with the dongle. Monitor port does not work but I just switched to a  USB monitor. I was just wondering if I can get a tower  casing that vents heat more evenly. Or are the tower cases different these days. Thanks everybody.

Heather

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 




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Re: decided to buy a new desktop

Gene
 

I really doubt that a typical user needs to spend over 600 dollars for a laptop, and when you consider sales or manufacturer refurbished machines, that makes me even more skeptical.  Even if I am wrong about new laptops, I expect you can get a 700 dollar value or perhaps a little more by buying machines on good sale or a manufacturer refurbished machine. 
 
Also, this review is about fifteen months old.  You will see passages where it is stated that something isn’t as much the case any more.  If such things were changing then, there may be significantly more change now.
Here are two examples:
Regarding batteries:
Note that this is changing, though: in the past, we rarely found a laptop under $730 that offers more than six hours of real-world battery life. Now, some budget laptops can last you a full day.
And that was about sixteen months ago.
Regarding processors:
There was a time when budget laptops were universally equipped with low-cost Pentium and Celeron CPUs with at most dual-core designs. That’s not as true today, with many budget laptops utilizing Intel Core CPUs and AMD Ryzen 3000 quad, and even six-core CPUs in some cases. A modern 10th-gen Intel CPU, like that in the Acer Swift 3, for example, provides excellent performance across the board in both single-threaded and multi-threaded tasks.
Even so, you’re much more likely to get a faster quad-core (or even six- or eight-core) CPU by spending a few hundred dollars more. I’ll let those with much more technical knowledge than I have discuss this passage, but here again, if this was the case sixteen months ago, who knows what the case is now.
And regarding SSD drives, at what price point do they start in laptops?  it has been stated that most laptops have them now. 
 
 
Gene
 

Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 7:47 PM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop
 

I am saying your price range of 600-700 for desktops is ok, but laptops the same level of quality on the unit goes for 800-100 or so as stated in the articles. As they are portable, you get less performance per dollar.

On 6/20/2021 7:45 PM, Gene wrote:
I’m not advocating using very slow computers. I don’t know about various processors and other technical matters in terms of acceptable speed.  But I’m writing about this because you may be giving people a really exaggerated sense of slowness at a price range where slowness wouldn’t be a problem.  What price computer are you talking about where a browser might take fifteen seconds to open?  Even on my laptop, eleven years old and moderately priced for its time, I can open browsers in something like three or four seconds.  I don’t have them go to a home page, which speeds up opening but if I had to wait fifteen secondes for a browser to open, I’d be very unhappy. 
 
And this is with a computer with a mechanical hard drive whereas it has been stated that most laptops now have SSD drives.  And considering that what you would get now for the same amount of money as eleven years ago would be faster and more powerful than what I got then, I think it is important to know what sorts of machines you are talking about, moderately priced machines, bottom of the line budget machines or something else? 
 
Gene
-----Original message-----
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 7:18 PM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop
 

That isn't correct though. 99% of people will feel speed matters. There is a poiunt where things are overkill, but an i7 or unllocked processor isn't where it begins. Look at it this way. If you open and close browsers each time, and it takes 15 seconds instead of less than 1, and you did this several dozen times a day, that is minutes off of your life you could be doing something better than sitting in front of youtr screen. And your processor isn't overpowered iether. If I recall that is only 4 core, rather underpowered compared to today's processors. Amd laptop processors easily exceed skylake desktop processor performance these days, and 10 will make your system more responsive, especially since the processor security patches don't mess up your SSD performance as much.

On 6/20/2021 12:24 PM, John Holcomb II wrote:

You have a point that Geen should if he has the money to do so, but consider Geen’s points if you will for a second.

What if Geen doesn’t have a job where that extra 30 seconds matters to him or his company?

What if  he has the money but would rather spend it on an experience doing something not tech related?

What if he doesn’t havce the money at all?

I’ve noticed that many people suggest what is good and isn’t, but not everybody wants to spend that money even if they have it.

There’s a point where things are indeed overkill.

Yes screen readers  do take up more resources but all facts do need to be considered.

I mean look at me, I have got all of this power and if nothing will ever use it why should I  ever bother again?

 

John

 

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io On Behalf Of enes saribas
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 10:39 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

You do need and should get one if you have the disposable income to get one. There is definately many important performance improvements that have a quality of life impact. It makes all the difference in the world whetehr a file compresses iin 5 minutes versus 4 houtrrs, or whether word loads in 30 seconds or less than 1.

On 6/19/2021 5:08 PM, Gene wrote:

I’m not sure what you are saying.  I’m saying that I had no problem with heat using old machines going back to the nineties.  And I don’t know what you mean by the most basic of computer tasks.  I used machines from the early 2000’s to browse, stream, including from Youtube, record audio, word process, and copy backups to external drives.  My laptop is about eleven years old.  Even if my apartment is warm, eighty or eighty-five degrees, I have absolutely no trouble with heat doing the things I discuss, nor do I have problems with the other much older machines I have.  My fans do not race. 

 

I hope others enter into this conversation.  You just do not need a nine-hundred dollar machine if you are a typical computer user, though you seem, as I understand what you are saying, to be advocating that.

 

Gene

-----Original message-----

 

 

Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2021 4:04 PM

Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

Likewise, your experiences, or lack there of of heat doesn't represent everyone with older machines. It is well established that very old processors are underpowered for anything but the most basic of computing tasks, and generate tremendous amounts of heat. You would need to compare it to a brand new high powered laptop to really feel the difference.

On 6/19/2021 1:35 PM, Gene wrote:

I have never had a problem with heat and, though I don’t discount your experience, it cannot be assumed to be representative.  My laptop, an eleven year old machine, seldom has its fan run at anything but a slow speed and that is when I do most things I do, including streaming videos from Youtube. 

 

I have another old, by today’s standards very underpowered machine that runs XP.  I never had a heat problem and I would use it for Youtube.  I should also add that I have another old machine that runs XP and it too never had such a problem.  One person’s experience is not valid for generalization when discussing computer problems and performance.

 

If other people report similar experiences, I would take that into account but nothing in my experience supports your experience.

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2021 1:05 PM

Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

not only that, but heat generation too. My old Toshiba on dual core Haswell i5 would have fans scream even when watching youtube. But my Ryzen fifth gen is a much higher wattage part, but barely produces any heat, even under full load it isn't very bad. And more apps take advantage of multicore. Browsers for one, file encoders and compression tools, OCR software. But the number of things that take advantage will only grow as time passes. And right now fifth gen Ryzen surpasses Intel in even  in single core, and Intel is severely behind, on the desktop they backported a 10 nm  process to 14 nm, making rocket lake, dropping the number of cores on the 1900K by 2 to 8 from the 10 on the 10900K. If you read rocket lake i7 reviews, they are easily the worst processor reviews I have read ever.

On 6/19/2021 10:52 AM, John Holcomb II wrote:

 

Intel is still on the 14NM  process.

This moving to a smaller die size will help with power savings. AMD is killing it right now.

I’m not sure how many apps take advantage of multi-core though?

John

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io On Behalf Of enes saribas
Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2021 12:22 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

They also use newer processor technology, 7 nanometer vs 14 nanometer for Intel, don't have as many hardware side channel vulnerabilities, and also generate less heat for the same performance thanks to the newer processor technologies. They have substantially better multicore core performance as well.

On 6/18/2021 4:57 PM, John Holcomb II wrote:

M.2 SSDs will be on anything but the bottom of the crop when it comes to desktops.

Same with hyper threading.

But here’s another thought to consider.

For single core performance, AMD is  worth a look. They have something similar to hyper threading which I forget what its called now.

John

 

He’s right and I forgot about that.

Sent: Friday, June 18, 2021 5:46 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

I am not a tech but I doubt you have to worry about the case.  You seem to be worried that the problems you have with your computer are caused by heat.  there is no reason for that assumption. 

 

As has been asked, how do you intend to use your computer?  I know little about M2 slots but whether you have one may not matter to any extent depending on how you intend to use it.  My impression is that they are common on computers now but I am just stating an impression and I hope others discuss the question. 

 

I would imagine that other things you are worried about, hyperthreading, for example, are so standard in machines that are not bottom of the line that you probably don’t have to worry about whether a machine uyou buy has that ability.  I would imagine it is present in any machine that isn’t a bottom of the line budget machine.

 

As has been asked, how do you intend to use the machine?  I’ll ask further if you anticipate your uses changing to any significant extent over time.  After we know how you intend to use your machine, people can discuss such matters as price, power of machine, etc.  I think those questions of use are by far the most important in people advising you.

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Friday, June 18, 2021 3:59 PM

Subject: [TechTalk] decided to buy a new desktop

 

Well, I guess I am coming in to this decade I am finally going to upgrade my desktop after 7 or 8 years.  So do I have to tell them I want an  m2 slot or is there another term?  I ran the Belarc adviser and it said I did not have  hiper threaded with my cores. I read up that the hiper threaded makes them faster for the PC.  Everything else was intergraded on the mother board, sound, internet card, graphics card and  memory. It was all intel integrated. The first thing to go out on this machine was the sound about 1.5 years ago. I am wired in to the modem as the wireless is not that great .I have to use a USB cord to get my printer to print too. So I am not sure what went out that these do not work anymore unless I do it threw a cable. I know the Bluetooth still works as my keyboard and mouse still work with the dongle. Monitor port does not work but I just switched to a  USB monitor. I was just wondering if I can get a tower  casing that vents heat more evenly. Or are the tower cases different these days. Thanks everybody.

Heather

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

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