Date   

locked Re: Amazon: Am I the only one that feels this way?

brian
 

Yes it is just fake news.

Brian Sackrider

On 10/19/2020 10:51 AM, chris judge wrote:
So do you believe that there haven't been over 8000000 cases in the US, and
over 200000 deaths?
Is this just fake news?

Chris Judge


-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Rob
Hudson
Sent: October 19, 2020 11:38 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Amazon: Am I the only one that feels this way?

That's easy. They want to turn covid into the new boogeyman. First it was
terrorism, now it's the big baaaaad virus. Call me a wild eyed conspiracy
theorist if you want, but I think they're are deliberately trying to foster
an atmosphere of fear.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Norman" <lists@...>
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 10:27:29 -0400
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Amazon: Am I the only one that feels this way?

I'm going to go on a bit of an off topic rant here, appoligies everyone.


> She has been in complete lockdown since mid-March because of Covid
restrictions.  Visitors are not permitted to enter her tiny studio
apartment, except for facility staff and medical personell who are
wearing protective garb and equipment.  She is not allowed to leave
her apartment for any reason.  Meals are left outside her door.  It's
like living in solitary confinement in a maximum security prison. All
this for $8000 a month.


This is complete and utter stupidity the way some of these poor old
people are locked up. I saw a headline somewhere a month or so ago
that was talking about the older people in homes dying because of
loneliness.
I believe such talk, i'd be climing the walls if anyone tried that on
me. How can people still justify these living conditions? i could
understand the restrictions this spring but not anymore. I suspect if
you asked the people in homes what there preference would be 90 % of
them would want to take there chances with covid.

Why can't we just lift most of the covid restrictions and go back to a
normal life?


JMT.





On 10/19/2020 10:07 AM, Gerald Levy via groups.io wrote:

To amplify my point a littlefurther, I have a blind, technophobic
ladyfriend who lives in an assisted living facility.  She has been
in complete lockdown since mid-March because of Covid restrictions.
Visitors are not permitted to enter her tiny studio apartment,
except for facility staff and medical personell who are wearing
protective garb and equipment.  She is not allowed to leave her
apartment for any reason.  Meals are left outside her door.  It's
like living in solitary confinement in a maximum security prison.
All this for $8000 a month.   Her ten-year old Windows 7 computeris
beginning to show signs of old age.  Who is going to set up a new
computer for her if the old one dies?  The management of the
facility has already told her that if her computer, which she is
totally dependent on to communicate with the outside word, finally
dies, she will just have to learn to live without it. Thank
goodness, she still has a working land line phone, because her
Jitterbug flip phone has also been giving her trouble.  So getting
sighted tech help may be difficult to impossible right now for many
blind computer and cell phone users.

Gerald



On 10/19/2020 9:37 AM, Gerald Levy via groups.io wrote:

This is not quite true. As a blind person, you are most definitely
entitled to a special car and"chauffeur".  It's called paratransit,
and it is  a service availabel for reasonable fare in all major
cities includingChicago.  Non-disabled residents cannot take
advantage of this service.  So what if the car isn't a Rolls Royce?
It will still take you where you want to go.  So your argument
isspecious.   And by the way, sighted consumers who have dexterity
or other health issues that make using a touchscreen impossible are
just as entitled to accessible smart phones with tactile keypads or
voice command capability as blind consumers. And where do you find
sighted help to set up a smart speaker for you, anyway?  My sighted
elderly next-door neighbor wouldn't know a Google Home mini from a
kumquat.
Besides, because of the surging pandemic in most parts of the
country, it may be difficult to impossible to find a tech-savvy
sighted person who is willing  to visit your home right now. My
tech savvy friend would be happy to set one up for me.  Except that
he is currently in lockdown and quarantine for the foreseeable
future, and refuses to use public  transit to visit me, because he
believes it would  be risky. And good luck trying to get help from
a social services agency.


Gerald



On 10/19/2020 8:31 AM, Gene wrote:
And I can't afford a chauffeur.  Am I entitled, because I'm blind
and can't afford one, to have one provided, on 24 hour call on
accessibility grounds?  given the amount of money I have access to
on my fixed income, a new car would be an economic burden and a
used car would be something I wouldn't want to spend money on.  Am
I entitled to one or a free state owned car and chauffeur?


And what about all the sighted people who can't afford new or
reasonably afford used cars?  Do we, as blind people deserve one
on accessibility grounds while denying cars to everyone else
because they don't have a disability?


At some point, the law stops being able to solve every conceivable
problem, and trying to do so may yield perverse or manifestly
unfair or unjust results.


And what about sighted people who can't or won't use cellular
phones?  Should they have an accessibility cause of action in this
case?  Accessibility law doesn't and has never said, that every
conceivable disability problem must be addressed.  It uses, as the
law so often does the reasonable standard.  Accessibility is to be
achieved if it does not place an undue burden on the entity in
question. Sometimes, the disabled person has to find a way to
solve a problem.


If someone sets up a Google Voice, it can be used from then on
accessibly by the blind person.  And I believe the question of
using an IPhone out of the box has been discussed on lists I
follow before and  blind people can start voiceover out of the box
without sighted assistance.


Gene

On 10/19/2020 6:57 AM, Gerald Levy via groups.io wrote:

An Apple IPhone starts at $700.  To me, this is expensive.
Accessible?  I understand thatthe the newly released IPhone 12
has no physical home button, so how would a blind consumer turn
on Voice Over without sighted help? Oh yes, I can buy a refurbed
IPhone 7 or 8 online for a few hundred dollars, still expensive
by my standards, that does have a physical home button, but
probably not at an Apple store.  And kindly provide the make and
model of an Android smart phone that has physical buttons that
can be used to set up one of these smart speakers.  I am a senior
who finds touchscreens difficult to impossible to master for a
variety of reasons, and so like many other blind consumers,
prefers a cell phone witha tactile keypad.


Gerald



On 10/19/2020 7:02 AM, John Dowling wrote:
Gerald,
I'm going to have to disagree with you there.
It's very easy to set up both an Amazon echo and google home.
There respected apps on both ios and android are very accessible.
May I ask, what smartphones were you referring to when you said
expensive and inaccessible.
Thanks,
John.

Once you replace negative thoughts with positive ones,  you'll
start having positive results. -Willie Nelson

On Oct 19, 2020, at 6:46 AM, Gerald Levy via groups.io
<bwaylimited=verizon.net@groups.io> wrote:

?


The bottom line is that both the Amazon Echo and Google Home
smart speakers were never really designed with accessibility in
mind in the first place.  To set up a Google Home device, you
need an expensive smart phone, which, itself may not be all
that accessible.  The Amazon Echo can allegedly be set up by
computer, but I have not seen any rports from blind consumers
successfully
  setting it up this way without sighted help. Large tech
companies seem to be sliding backwards when it comes to
accessibility.  For instance, PayPal, which claims that they
are dedicated to making their web site accessible, no longer
offers telephone customer support for disabled customers who
encounter problems with the site. The blindness advocacy
organizations have been uncharacteristically quiet about this
issue. Despite the problems you have described, they have never
demonstrated any inclination to take legal action against these
companies to force them to make their products, apps and
customer support more accessible and blind-friendly.  Probably
because their wimpy lawyers are afraid to challenge big bad
Amazon and Google and the likes of Jeff Bezos and Eric Schmidt.
They are only interested in litigation if they see a big payday
for themselves.  For instace, years ago when the NFB
successfully sued Target to force them to make their web site
more accessible, they pocketed $250K in punitive damages, and
since then have not bothered to regularly inspect the Target
site to ensure that it remains accessible.  In factthe Target
site, at least from my perspective, has become progressively
less accessible since thesettlement.  So we blind consumers
really have nobody fighting on our behalf for better accessibility.

Gerald



On 10/19/2020 3:58 AM, Leedy Diane Bomar wrote:
I believe in inclusion. Amazon has improved significantly over
the last ten years in this area. We can now use their hardward
devices, including those with screens. But, they still have a
long way to go as far as their app and web site are concerned.

My issue is a mindset and culture concern. We are still
considered a "special" group. In other words, they still think
that a separate website is what we SHOULD prefer, though very
few use it. I believe that most of you would agree the using
the app and website should be designed correctly so that it is
equally accessible and usable for blind and sighted users.
Separation is never equal.

So, why is it that when one calls the departments that provide
customer service on using their hardware devices, which
include accessible features such as voice view, the reps are
not trained on those modes and want to send us to the
Accessibility Department? Tonight when trying to set up my new
Echo Show, the rep insisted that I could only use it by
visually reading the screen. She was adamant about this fact,
though I knew that wasn't the case. The standard help file
they send out has no reference to using the device
non-visually, not even a link! The Accessibility department is
a misnomer, in fact, a rep from that department referred to it
as "search and rescue" which may be a more apt title. They
certainly don't have the tools to allow them to use their apps
with voice on either iOS or Android! At best they can give
descriptions of products and put them in your cart, which is often
useful.
But, am I wrong in believing that the device reps should be
trained in using those devices by a blind person? Shouldn't
they even know that it is possible, and research how to set it up?

I had this issue with my first Kindle Fire, three years ago,
and raised quite a ruckus about it, and hoped it had been
resolved.
But, it obiously has not. Tonight, I spoke with a supervisor
who confirmed that the reps are not trained or even told that
a blind person can make the screen be accessible by voice output.

Am I the only one that is bothered by this attitude and its
results? Am I the only one who writes to the Accessibility
development team with complaints and suggestions. Several
years ago, I even wrote to Jeff Bezos, and was contacted by a
moron from their Executive team, who was supposedly in charge
of "accessibility". He said things like: "they were really
lucky to find me." "Why don't you just use the special access
site?" "I used to have a blind friend" and worst of all was
going to hire Freedom Scientific, who he had met at CSUN, to
come in and give JAWS training to a group of developers while
blindfolded! I asked him why they needed to be blindfolded,
instead of just turning off the screen, and his reply was "but
then, they could see the keyboard!" I pointed out that the
developers needed training on coding for accessibility.more
than learning JAWS, but he was a know-it-all. He refused to
attend consumer conventions, saying that he had no time for
that. I don't know if he is still there, but, he caused more
problems than fixing anything.

Anyway, I am sorry that this seems like a useless rant, but, I
would like input from others, of how to address this mindset
problem. Is it just me, and an unrealistic belief in full
inclusion, or, is it a problem for others?

Thanks,













locked Re: Amazon: Am I the only one that feels this way?

Norman
 

Ok, one point that everyone in the media seems to miss with events like this.

No one was forced to go to that event, it was personal choice. So before going on a rant about how horrible this is the left wing people should consider that if they have the choice to stay home, where masks, etc they should also grant those less scared of covid the right to not where masks, stay home, go to events, etc.

On 10/19/2020 1:59 PM, Pamela Dominguez wrote:
He doesn't care about anybody, not just old and poor people.  I mean, after he has the virus himself, he holds a rally in Carson City Nevada with people elbow to elbow, nobody wearing masks!  Bet you dollars to doughnuts that's the next hot spot!  Pam.

-----Original Message----- From: chris judge
Sent: Monday, October 19, 2020 10:47 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Amazon: Am I the only one that feels this way?

And at the top of the list of people who don't care about these poor people
is that idiot in the white house.

Chris Judge


-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Rob
Hudson
Sent: October 19, 2020 11:34 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Amazon: Am I the only one that feels this way?

Just one side effect of this scamdemic. And nobody cares about these poor
people, at all.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gerald Levy via groups.io" <bwaylimited=verizon.net@groups.io>
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 10:07:56 -0400
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Amazon: Am I the only one that feels this way?


To amplify my point a littlefurther, I have a blind, technophobic
ladyfriend who lives in an assisted living facility.  She has been in
complete lockdown since mid-March because of Covid restrictions.
Visitors are not permitted to enter her tiny studio apartment, except
for facility staff and medical personell who are wearing protective
garb and equipment.  She is not allowed to leave her apartment for any
reason.  Meals are left outside her door. It's like living in solitary
confinement in a maximum security prison. All this for $8000 a month.
Her ten-year old Windows 7 computeris beginning to show signs of old
age.  Who is going to set up a new computer for her if the old one
dies?  The management of the facility has already told her that if her
computer, which she is totally dependent on to communicate with the
outside word, finally dies, she will just have to learn to live
without it.  Thank goodness, she still has a working land line phone,
because her Jitterbug flip phone has also been giving her trouble.  So
getting sighted tech help may be difficult to impossible right now for
many blind computer and cell phone users.


Gerald



On 10/19/2020 9:37 AM, Gerald Levy via groups.io wrote:


This is not quite true. As a blind person, you are most definitely
entitled to a special car and"chauffeur".  It's called paratransit,
and it is  a service availabel for reasonable fare in all major
cities includingChicago.  Non-disabled residents cannot take
advantage of this service.  So what if the car isn't a Rolls Royce?
It will still take you where you want to go.  So your argument
isspecious.   And by the way, sighted consumers who have dexterity
or other health issues that make using a touchscreen impossible are
just as entitled to accessible smart phones with tactile keypads or
voice command capability as blind consumers. And where do you find
sighted help to set up a smart speaker for you, anyway?  My sighted
elderly next-door neighbor wouldn't know a Google Home mini from a
kumquat. Besides, because of the surging pandemic in most parts of
the country, it may be difficult to impossible to find a tech-savvy
sighted person who is willing to visit your home right now. My tech
savvy friend would be happy to set one up for me.  Except that he is
currently in lockdown and quarantine for the foreseeable future, and
refuses to use public transit to visit me, because he believes it
would  be risky. And good luck trying to get help from a social
services
agency.


Gerald



On 10/19/2020 8:31 AM, Gene wrote:

And I can't afford a chauffeur.  Am I entitled, because I'm blind
and can't afford one, to have one provided, on 24 hour call on
accessibility grounds?  given the amount of money I have access to
on my fixed income, a new car would be an economic burden and a
used car would be something I wouldn't want to spend money on.  Am
I entitled to one or a free state owned car and chauffeur?


And what about all the sighted people who can't afford new or
reasonably afford used cars?  Do we, as blind people deserve one on
accessibility grounds while denying cars to everyone else because
they don't have a disability?


At some point, the law stops being able to solve every conceivable
problem, and trying to do so may yield perverse or manifestly
unfair or unjust results.


And what about sighted people who can't or won't use cellular
phones?  Should they have an accessibility cause of action in this
case?  Accessibility law doesn't and has never said, that every
conceivable disability problem must be addressed.  It uses, as the
law so often does the reasonable standard. Accessibility is to be
achieved if it does not place an undue burden on the entity in
question.  Sometimes, the disabled person has to find a way to
solve a problem.


If someone sets up a Google Voice, it can be used from then on
accessibly by the blind person.  And I believe the question of
using an IPhone out of the box has been discussed on lists I follow
before and  blind people can start voiceover out of the box without
sighted assistance.


Gene

On 10/19/2020 6:57 AM, Gerald Levy via groups.io wrote:


An Apple IPhone starts at $700.  To me, this is expensive.
Accessible?  I understand thatthe the newly released IPhone 12
has no physical home button, so how would a blind consumer turn on
Voice Over without sighted help? Oh yes, I can buy a refurbed
IPhone 7 or
8 online for a few hundred dollars, still expensive by my
standards, that does have a physical home button, but probably not
at an Apple store. And kindly provide the make and model of an
Android smart phone that has physical buttons that can be used to
set up one of these smart speakers.  I am a senior who finds
touchscreens difficult to impossible to master for a variety of
reasons, and so like many other blind consumers, prefers a cell
phone witha tactile keypad.


Gerald



On 10/19/2020 7:02 AM, John Dowling wrote:
Gerald,
I'm going to have to disagree with you there.
It's very easy to set up both an Amazon echo and google home.
There respected apps on both ios and android are very accessible.
May I ask, what smartphones were you referring to when you said
expensive and inaccessible.
Thanks,
John.

Once you replace negative thoughts with positive ones,  you'll
start having positive results. -Willie Nelson

On Oct 19, 2020, at 6:46 AM, Gerald Levy via groups.io
<bwaylimited=verizon.net@groups.io> wrote:

?


The bottom line is that both the Amazon Echo and Google Home
smart speakers were never really designed with accessibility in
mind in the first place.  To set up a Google Home device, you
need an expensive smart phone, which, itself may not be all that
accessible.  The Amazon Echo can allegedly be set up by
computer, but I have not seen any rports from blind consumers
successfully setting it up this way without sighted help. Large
tech companies seem to be sliding backwards when it comes to
accessibility.  For instance, PayPal, which claims that they are
dedicated to making their web site accessible, no longer offers
telephone customer support for disabled customers who encounter
problems with the site. The blindness advocacy organizations
have been uncharacteristically quiet about this issue.  Despite
the problems you have described, they have never demonstrated
any inclination to take legal action against these companies to
force them to make their products, apps and customer support
more accessible and blind-friendly. Probably because their
wimpy lawyers are afraid to challenge big bad Amazon and Google
and the likes of Jeff Bezos and Eric Schmidt.  They are only
interested in litigation if they see a big payday for
themselves.  For instace, years ago when the NFB successfully
sued Target to force them to make their web site more
accessible, they pocketed $250K in punitive damages, and since
then have not bothered to regularly inspect the Target site to
ensure that it remains accessible. In factthe Target site, at
least from my perspective, has become progressively less
accessible since thesettlement.  So we blind consumers really have
nobody fighting on our behalf for better accessibility.

Gerald



On 10/19/2020 3:58 AM, Leedy Diane Bomar wrote:
I believe in inclusion. Amazon has improved significantly over
the last ten years in this area. We can now use their hardward
devices, including those with screens. But, they still have a
long way to go as far as their app and web site are concerned.

My issue is a mindset and culture concern. We are still
considered a "special" group. In other words, they still think
that a separate website is what we SHOULD prefer, though very
few use it. I believe that most of you would agree the using
the app and website should be designed correctly so that it is
equally accessible and usable for blind and sighted users.
Separation is never equal.

So, why is it that when one calls the departments that provide
customer service on using their hardware devices, which include
accessible features such as voice view, the reps are not
trained on those modes and want to send us to the Accessibility
Department? Tonight when trying to set up my new Echo Show, the
rep insisted that I could only use it by visually reading the
screen. She was adamant about this fact, though I knew that
wasn't the case. The standard help file they send out has no
reference to using the device non-visually, not even a link!
The Accessibility department is a misnomer, in fact, a rep from
that department referred to it as "search and rescue" which may
be a more apt title. They certainly don't have the tools to
allow them to use their apps with voice on either iOS or
Android! At best they can give descriptions of products and put
them in your cart, which is often useful.

But, am I wrong in believing that the device reps should be
trained in using those devices by a blind person? Shouldn't
they even know that it is possible, and research how to set it
up?

I had this issue with my first Kindle Fire, three years ago,
and raised quite a ruckus about it, and hoped it had been
resolved.
But, it obiously has not. Tonight, I spoke with a supervisor
who confirmed that the reps are not trained or even told that a
blind person can make the screen be accessible by voice output.

Am I the only one that is bothered by this attitude and its
results? Am I the only one who writes to the Accessibility
development team with complaints and suggestions. Several years
ago, I even wrote to Jeff Bezos, and was contacted by a moron
from their Executive team, who was supposedly in charge of
"accessibility". He said things like: "they were really lucky
to find me." "Why don't you just use the special access site?"
"I used to have a blind friend" and worst of all was going to
hire Freedom Scientific, who he had met at CSUN, to come in and
give JAWS training to a group of developers while blindfolded!
I asked him why they needed to be blindfolded, instead of just
turning off the screen, and his reply was "but then, they could
see the keyboard!" I pointed out that the developers needed
training on coding for accessibility.more than learning JAWS,
but he was a know-it-all. He refused to attend consumer
conventions, saying that he had no time for that. I don't know
if he is still there, but, he caused more problems than fixing
anything.

Anyway, I am sorry that this seems like a useless rant, but, I
would like input from others, of how to address this mindset
problem. Is it just me, and an unrealistic belief in full
inclusion, or, is it a problem for others?

Thanks,

















Re: google home number

 

On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 02:04 PM, Gerald Levy wrote:
But telling a fellow list member to esentially go "look it up herself" is equally as nasty.
-
Gerald, I supplied the page on which that information is found.  Yet another baseless strawman from you.  I didn't tell anyone to do a web search, I gave the direct link to  Contact the Google Disability Support Team.

If you cannot use that reference independently, then you have no business asking on a group for anything.  It's that simple.

 

 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.

        ~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com


Re: google home number

Gerald Levy
 


As usual, your response is arrogant and condescending.  You accused me earlier of being "nasty",  for which I apologize.  But telling a fellow list member to esentially go "look it up herself" is equally as nasty.  If she could find the phone number herself, she wouldn't be asking for help on this list in the first place.  Try to be a little more patient and understanding with fellow blind list members who may not beas as adept as you at searching the web for information before you post a response.   .


Gerald


 

On 10/19/2020 12:57 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 12:46 PM, Pamela Dominguez wrote:
Yes, but you didn’t give anybody the number. 
-
Because I expect that adults will go to that page, and search on "Phone."  We're not children here.  There are also other contact options that may not have been considered that are available there.

You can't always get what you want, but you certainly got what you needed if you're willing to spend two freakin' seconds to review Google's own source material.  Do so.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.

        ~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com


locked Re: Amazon: Am I the only one that feels this way?

Pamela Dominguez
 

He doesn't care about anybody, not just old and poor people. I mean, after he has the virus himself, he holds a rally in Carson City Nevada with people elbow to elbow, nobody wearing masks! Bet you dollars to doughnuts that's the next hot spot! Pam.

-----Original Message-----
From: chris judge
Sent: Monday, October 19, 2020 10:47 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Amazon: Am I the only one that feels this way?

And at the top of the list of people who don't care about these poor people
is that idiot in the white house.

Chris Judge


-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Rob
Hudson
Sent: October 19, 2020 11:34 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Amazon: Am I the only one that feels this way?

Just one side effect of this scamdemic. And nobody cares about these poor
people, at all.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gerald Levy via groups.io" <bwaylimited=verizon.net@groups.io>
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 10:07:56 -0400
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Amazon: Am I the only one that feels this way?


To amplify my point a littlefurther, I have a blind, technophobic
ladyfriend who lives in an assisted living facility. She has been in
complete lockdown since mid-March because of Covid restrictions.
Visitors are not permitted to enter her tiny studio apartment, except
for facility staff and medical personell who are wearing protective
garb and equipment. She is not allowed to leave her apartment for any
reason. Meals are left outside her door. It's like living in solitary
confinement in a maximum security prison. All this for $8000 a month.
Her ten-year old Windows 7 computeris beginning to show signs of old
age. Who is going to set up a new computer for her if the old one
dies? The management of the facility has already told her that if her
computer, which she is totally dependent on to communicate with the
outside word, finally dies, she will just have to learn to live
without it. Thank goodness, she still has a working land line phone,
because her Jitterbug flip phone has also been giving her trouble. So
getting sighted tech help may be difficult to impossible right now for
many blind computer and cell phone users.


Gerald



On 10/19/2020 9:37 AM, Gerald Levy via groups.io wrote:


This is not quite true. As a blind person, you are most definitely
entitled to a special car and"chauffeur". It's called paratransit,
and it is a service availabel for reasonable fare in all major
cities includingChicago. Non-disabled residents cannot take
advantage of this service. So what if the car isn't a Rolls Royce?
It will still take you where you want to go. So your argument
isspecious. And by the way, sighted consumers who have dexterity
or other health issues that make using a touchscreen impossible are
just as entitled to accessible smart phones with tactile keypads or
voice command capability as blind consumers. And where do you find
sighted help to set up a smart speaker for you, anyway? My sighted
elderly next-door neighbor wouldn't know a Google Home mini from a
kumquat. Besides, because of the surging pandemic in most parts of
the country, it may be difficult to impossible to find a tech-savvy
sighted person who is willing to visit your home right now. My tech
savvy friend would be happy to set one up for me. Except that he is
currently in lockdown and quarantine for the foreseeable future, and
refuses to use public transit to visit me, because he believes it
would be risky. And good luck trying to get help from a social services
agency.


Gerald



On 10/19/2020 8:31 AM, Gene wrote:

And I can't afford a chauffeur. Am I entitled, because I'm blind
and can't afford one, to have one provided, on 24 hour call on
accessibility grounds? given the amount of money I have access to
on my fixed income, a new car would be an economic burden and a
used car would be something I wouldn't want to spend money on. Am
I entitled to one or a free state owned car and chauffeur?


And what about all the sighted people who can't afford new or
reasonably afford used cars? Do we, as blind people deserve one on
accessibility grounds while denying cars to everyone else because
they don't have a disability?


At some point, the law stops being able to solve every conceivable
problem, and trying to do so may yield perverse or manifestly
unfair or unjust results.


And what about sighted people who can't or won't use cellular
phones? Should they have an accessibility cause of action in this
case? Accessibility law doesn't and has never said, that every
conceivable disability problem must be addressed. It uses, as the
law so often does the reasonable standard. Accessibility is to be
achieved if it does not place an undue burden on the entity in
question. Sometimes, the disabled person has to find a way to
solve a problem.


If someone sets up a Google Voice, it can be used from then on
accessibly by the blind person. And I believe the question of
using an IPhone out of the box has been discussed on lists I follow
before and blind people can start voiceover out of the box without
sighted assistance.


Gene

On 10/19/2020 6:57 AM, Gerald Levy via groups.io wrote:


An Apple IPhone starts at $700. To me, this is expensive.
Accessible? I understand thatthe the newly released IPhone 12
has no physical home button, so how would a blind consumer turn on
Voice Over without sighted help? Oh yes, I can buy a refurbed
IPhone 7 or
8 online for a few hundred dollars, still expensive by my
standards, that does have a physical home button, but probably not
at an Apple store. And kindly provide the make and model of an
Android smart phone that has physical buttons that can be used to
set up one of these smart speakers. I am a senior who finds
touchscreens difficult to impossible to master for a variety of
reasons, and so like many other blind consumers, prefers a cell
phone witha tactile keypad.


Gerald



On 10/19/2020 7:02 AM, John Dowling wrote:
Gerald,
I'm going to have to disagree with you there.
It's very easy to set up both an Amazon echo and google home.
There respected apps on both ios and android are very accessible.
May I ask, what smartphones were you referring to when you said
expensive and inaccessible.
Thanks,
John.

Once you replace negative thoughts with positive ones, you'll
start having positive results. -Willie Nelson

On Oct 19, 2020, at 6:46 AM, Gerald Levy via groups.io
<bwaylimited=verizon.net@groups.io> wrote:

?


The bottom line is that both the Amazon Echo and Google Home
smart speakers were never really designed with accessibility in
mind in the first place. To set up a Google Home device, you
need an expensive smart phone, which, itself may not be all that
accessible. The Amazon Echo can allegedly be set up by
computer, but I have not seen any rports from blind consumers
successfully setting it up this way without sighted help. Large
tech companies seem to be sliding backwards when it comes to
accessibility. For instance, PayPal, which claims that they are
dedicated to making their web site accessible, no longer offers
telephone customer support for disabled customers who encounter
problems with the site. The blindness advocacy organizations
have been uncharacteristically quiet about this issue. Despite
the problems you have described, they have never demonstrated
any inclination to take legal action against these companies to
force them to make their products, apps and customer support
more accessible and blind-friendly. Probably because their
wimpy lawyers are afraid to challenge big bad Amazon and Google
and the likes of Jeff Bezos and Eric Schmidt. They are only
interested in litigation if they see a big payday for
themselves. For instace, years ago when the NFB successfully
sued Target to force them to make their web site more
accessible, they pocketed $250K in punitive damages, and since
then have not bothered to regularly inspect the Target site to
ensure that it remains accessible. In factthe Target site, at
least from my perspective, has become progressively less
accessible since thesettlement. So we blind consumers really have
nobody fighting on our behalf for better accessibility.

Gerald



On 10/19/2020 3:58 AM, Leedy Diane Bomar wrote:
I believe in inclusion. Amazon has improved significantly over
the last ten years in this area. We can now use their hardward
devices, including those with screens. But, they still have a
long way to go as far as their app and web site are concerned.

My issue is a mindset and culture concern. We are still
considered a "special" group. In other words, they still think
that a separate website is what we SHOULD prefer, though very
few use it. I believe that most of you would agree the using
the app and website should be designed correctly so that it is
equally accessible and usable for blind and sighted users.
Separation is never equal.

So, why is it that when one calls the departments that provide
customer service on using their hardware devices, which include
accessible features such as voice view, the reps are not
trained on those modes and want to send us to the Accessibility
Department? Tonight when trying to set up my new Echo Show, the
rep insisted that I could only use it by visually reading the
screen. She was adamant about this fact, though I knew that
wasn't the case. The standard help file they send out has no
reference to using the device non-visually, not even a link!
The Accessibility department is a misnomer, in fact, a rep from
that department referred to it as "search and rescue" which may
be a more apt title. They certainly don't have the tools to
allow them to use their apps with voice on either iOS or
Android! At best they can give descriptions of products and put
them in your cart, which is often useful.

But, am I wrong in believing that the device reps should be
trained in using those devices by a blind person? Shouldn't
they even know that it is possible, and research how to set it up?

I had this issue with my first Kindle Fire, three years ago,
and raised quite a ruckus about it, and hoped it had been resolved.
But, it obiously has not. Tonight, I spoke with a supervisor
who confirmed that the reps are not trained or even told that a
blind person can make the screen be accessible by voice output.

Am I the only one that is bothered by this attitude and its
results? Am I the only one who writes to the Accessibility
development team with complaints and suggestions. Several years
ago, I even wrote to Jeff Bezos, and was contacted by a moron
from their Executive team, who was supposedly in charge of
"accessibility". He said things like: "they were really lucky
to find me." "Why don't you just use the special access site?"
"I used to have a blind friend" and worst of all was going to
hire Freedom Scientific, who he had met at CSUN, to come in and
give JAWS training to a group of developers while blindfolded!
I asked him why they needed to be blindfolded, instead of just
turning off the screen, and his reply was "but then, they could
see the keyboard!" I pointed out that the developers needed
training on coding for accessibility.more than learning JAWS,
but he was a know-it-all. He refused to attend consumer
conventions, saying that he had no time for that. I don't know
if he is still there, but, he caused more problems than fixing
anything.

Anyway, I am sorry that this seems like a useless rant, but, I
would like input from others, of how to address this mindset
problem. Is it just me, and an unrealistic belief in full
inclusion, or, is it a problem for others?

Thanks,

















--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com


locked Re: Amazon: Am I the only one that feels this way?

A.Mac
 

I THINK YOU SHOULD READ UP ABOUT THINGS BEFORE YOU GO ON ABOUT THINGS THAT YOU NO LITTLE ABOUT.


On 19/10/2020 13:31, Gene wrote:

And I can't afford a chauffeur.  Am I entitled, because I'm blind and can't afford one, to have one provided, on 24 hour call on accessibility grounds?  given the amount of money I have access to on my fixed income, a new car would be an economic burden and a used car would be something I wouldn't want to spend money on.  Am I entitled to one or a free state owned car and chauffeur?


And what about all the sighted people who can't afford new or reasonably afford used cars?  Do we, as blind people deserve one on accessibility grounds while denying cars to everyone else because they don't have a disability?


At some point, the law stops being able to solve every conceivable problem, and trying to do so may yield perverse or manifestly unfair or unjust results. 


And what about sighted people who can't or won't use cellular phones?  Should they have an accessibility cause of action in this case?  Accessibility law doesn't and has never said, that every conceivable disability problem must be addressed.  It uses, as the law so often does the reasonable standard.  Accessibility is to be achieved if it does not place an undue burden on the entity in question.  Sometimes, the disabled person has to find a way to solve a problem. 


If someone sets up a Google Voice, it can be used from then on accessibly by the blind person.  And I believe the question of using an IPhone out of the box has been discussed on lists I follow before and  blind people can start voiceover out of the box without sighted assistance. 


Gene

On 10/19/2020 6:57 AM, Gerald Levy via groups.io wrote:


An Apple IPhone starts at $700.  To me, this is expensive.  Accessible?  I understand thatthe the newly released IPhone 12  has no physical home button, so how would a blind consumer turn on Voice Over without sighted help? Oh yes, I can buy a refurbed IPhone 7 or 8 online for a few hundred dollars, still expensive by my standards, that does have a physical home button, but probably not at an Apple store.  And kindly provide the make and model of an Android smart phone that has physical buttons that can be used to set up one of these smart speakers.  I am a senior who finds touchscreens difficult to impossible to master for a variety of reasons, and so like many other blind consumers, prefers a cell phone witha tactile keypad.


Gerald



On 10/19/2020 7:02 AM, John Dowling wrote:
Gerald,
I'm going to have to disagree with you there.
It's very easy to set up both an Amazon echo and google home. There respected apps on both ios and android are very accessible.
May I ask, what smartphones were you referring to when you said expensive and inaccessible.
Thanks,
John.

Once you replace negative thoughts with positive ones,  you'll start having positive results. -Willie Nelson

On Oct 19, 2020, at 6:46 AM, Gerald Levy via groups.io <bwaylimited@...> wrote:




The bottom line is that both the Amazon Echo and Google Home smart speakers were never really designed with accessibility in mind in the first place.  To set up a Google Home device, you need an expensive smart phone, which, itself may not be all that accessible.  The Amazon Echo can allegedly be set up by computer, but I have not seen any rports from blind consumers successfully   setting it up this way without sighted help. Large tech companies seem to be sliding backwards when it comes to accessibility.  For instance, PayPal, which claims that they are dedicated to making their web site accessible, no longer offers telephone customer support for disabled customers who encounter problems with the site. The blindness advocacy organizations have been uncharacteristically quiet about this issue.  Despite the problems you have described, they have never demonstrated any inclination to take legal action against these companies to force them to make their products, apps and customer support more accessible and blind-friendly.  Probably because their wimpy lawyers are afraid to challenge big bad Amazon and Google and the likes of Jeff Bezos and Eric Schmidt.  They are only interested in litigation if they see a big payday for themselves.  For instace, years ago when the NFB successfully sued Target to force them to make their web site more accessible, they pocketed $250K in punitive damages, and since then have not bothered to regularly inspect the Target site to ensure that it remains accessible.  In factthe Target site, at least from my perspective, has become progressively less accessible since thesettlement.  So we blind consumers really have nobody fighting on our behalf for better accessibility.

 

Gerald



On 10/19/2020 3:58 AM, Leedy Diane Bomar wrote:
I believe in inclusion. Amazon has improved significantly over the last ten years in this area. We can now use their hardward devices, including those with screens. But, they still have a long way to go as far as their app and web site are concerned.

My issue is a mindset and culture concern. We are still considered a "special" group. In other words, they still think that a separate website is what we SHOULD prefer, though very few use it. I believe that most of you would agree the using the app and website should be designed correctly so that it is equally accessible and usable for blind and sighted users. Separation is never equal.

So, why is it that when one calls the departments that provide customer service on using their hardware devices, which include accessible features such as voice view, the reps are not trained on those modes and want to send us to the Accessibility Department? Tonight when trying to set up my new Echo Show, the rep insisted that I could only use it by visually reading the screen. She was adamant about this fact, though I knew that wasn't the case. The standard help file they send out has no reference to using the device non-visually, not even a link! The Accessibility department is a misnomer, in fact, a rep from that department referred to it as "search and rescue" which may be a more apt title. They certainly don't have the tools to allow them to use their apps with voice on either iOS or Android! At best they can give descriptions of products and put them in your cart, which is often useful.

But, am I wrong in believing that the device reps should be trained in using those devices by a blind person? Shouldn't they even know that it is possible, and research how to set it up?

I had this issue with my first Kindle Fire, three years ago, and raised quite a ruckus about it, and hoped it had been resolved. But, it obiously has not. Tonight, I spoke with a supervisor who confirmed that the reps are not trained or even told that a blind person can make the screen be accessible by voice output. 

Am I the only one that is bothered by this attitude and its results? Am I the only one who writes to the Accessibility development team with complaints and suggestions. Several years ago, I even wrote to Jeff Bezos, and was contacted by a moron from their Executive team, who was supposedly in charge of "accessibility". He said things like: "they were really lucky to find me." "Why don't you just use the special access site?" "I used to have a blind friend" and worst of all was going to hire Freedom Scientific, who he had met at CSUN, to come in and give JAWS training to a group of developers while blindfolded! I asked him why they needed to be blindfolded, instead of just turning off the screen, and his reply was "but then, they could see the keyboard!" I pointed out that the developers needed training on coding for accessibility.more than learning JAWS, but he was a know-it-all. He refused to attend consumer conventions, saying that he had no time for that. I don't know if he is still there, but, he caused more problems than fixing anything.

Anyway, I am sorry that this seems like a useless rant, but, I would like input from others, of how to address this mindset problem. Is it just me, and an unrealistic belief in full inclusion, or, is it a problem for others?

Thanks,


-- 
Thanks for your time in advance.
😎
Later
A.Mac
[all out going mail is scanned by Avira]


locked Re: Amazon: Am I the only one that feels this way?

Pamela Dominguez
 

That is not a special car and cheauffeur.  That is a car that picks you up, not a car that you own.  So don’t go twisting things around.  And you don’t have to be blind to get it.  Pam.
 

Sent: Monday, October 19, 2020 9:37 AM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Amazon: Am I the only one that feels this way?
 

 

This is not quite true.  As a blind person, you are most definitely entitled to a special car and"chauffeur".  It's called paratransit, and it is  a service availabel for reasonable fare in all major cities includingChicago.  Non-disabled  residents cannot take advantage of this service.  So what if the car isn't a Rolls Royce?  It will still take you where you want to go.  So your argument isspecious.   And by the way, sighted consumers who have dexterity or other health issues that make using a touchscreen impossible are just as entitled to accessible smart phones with tactile keypads or voice command capability as blind consumers. And where do you find sighted help to set up a smart speaker for you, anyway?  My sighted elderly next-door neighbor wouldn't know a Google Home mini from a kumquat. Besides, because of the surging pandemic in most parts of the country, it may be difficult to impossible to find a tech-savvy sighted person who is willing  to visit your home right now. My tech savvy friend would be happy to set one up for me.  Except that he is currently in lockdown and quarantine for the foreseeable future, and refuses to use public  transit to visit me, because he believes it would  be risky. And good luck trying to get help from a social services agency. 


Gerald


 

On 10/19/2020 8:31 AM, Gene wrote:

And I can't afford a chauffeur.  Am I entitled, because I'm blind and can't afford one, to have one provided, on 24 hour call on accessibility grounds?  given the amount of money I have access to on my fixed income, a new car would be an economic burden and a used car would be something I wouldn't want to spend money on.  Am I entitled to one or a free state owned car and chauffeur?

 

And what about all the sighted people who can't afford new or reasonably afford used cars?  Do we, as blind people deserve one on accessibility grounds while denying cars to everyone else because they don't have a disability?

 

At some point, the law stops being able to solve every conceivable problem, and trying to do so may yield perverse or manifestly unfair or unjust results. 

 

And what about sighted people who can't or won't use cellular phones?  Should they have an accessibility cause of action in this case?  Accessibility law doesn't and has never said, that every conceivable disability problem must be addressed.  It uses, as the law so often does the reasonable standard.  Accessibility is to be achieved if it does not place an undue burden on the entity in question.  Sometimes, the disabled person has to find a way to solve a problem. 

 

If someone sets up a Google Voice, it can be used from then on accessibly by the blind person.  And I believe the question of using an IPhone out of the box has been discussed on lists I follow before and  blind people can start voiceover out of the box without sighted assistance. 


Gene

On 10/19/2020 6:57 AM, Gerald Levy via groups.io wrote:

 

An Apple IPhone starts at $700.  To me, this is expensive.  Accessible?  I understand thatthe the newly released IPhone 12  has no physical home button, so how would a blind consumer turn on Voice Over without sighted help? Oh yes, I can buy a refurbed IPhone 7 or 8 online for a few hundred dollars, still expensive by my standards, that does have a physical home button, but probably not at an Apple store.  And kindly provide the make and model of an Android smart phone that has physical buttons that can be used to set up one of these smart speakers.  I am a senior who finds touchscreens difficult to impossible to master for a variety of reasons, and so like many other blind consumers, prefers a cell phone witha tactile keypad.

 

Gerald

 

 

On 10/19/2020 7:02 AM, John Dowling wrote:
Gerald,
I'm going to have to disagree with you there.
It's very easy to set up both an Amazon echo and google home. There respected apps on both ios and android are very accessible.
May I ask, what smartphones were you referring to when you said expensive and inaccessible.
Thanks,
John.

Once you replace negative thoughts with positive ones,  you'll start having positive results. -Willie Nelson

On Oct 19, 2020, at 6:46 AM, Gerald Levy via groups.io mailto:bwaylimited@... wrote:



 

The bottom line is that both the Amazon Echo and Google Home smart speakers were never really designed with accessibility in mind in the first place.  To set up a Google Home device, you need an expensive smart phone, which, itself may not be all that accessible.  The Amazon Echo can allegedly be set up by computer, but I have not seen any rports from blind consumers successfully   setting it up this way without sighted help. Large tech companies seem to be sliding backwards when it comes to accessibility.  For instance, PayPal, which claims that they are dedicated to making their web site accessible, no longer offers telephone customer support for disabled customers who encounter problems with the site. The blindness advocacy organizations have been uncharacteristically quiet about this issue.  Despite the problems you have described, they have never demonstrated any inclination to take legal action against these companies to force them to make their products, apps and customer support more accessible and blind-friendly.  Probably because their wimpy lawyers are afraid to challenge big bad Amazon and Google and the likes of Jeff Bezos and Eric Schmidt.  They are only interested in litigation if they see a big payday for themselves.  For instace, years ago when the NFB successfully sued Target to force them to make their web site more accessible, they pocketed $250K in punitive damages, and since then have not bothered to regularly inspect the Target site to ensure that it remains accessible.  In factthe Target site, at least from my perspective, has become progressively less accessible since thesettlement.  So we blind consumers really have nobody fighting on our behalf for better accessibility.

Gerald

 

 

On 10/19/2020 3:58 AM, Leedy Diane Bomar wrote:
I believe in inclusion. Amazon has improved significantly over the last ten years in this area. We can now use their hardward devices, including those with screens. But, they still have a long way to go as far as their app and web site are concerned.
 
My issue is a mindset and culture concern. We are still considered a "special" group. In other words, they still think that a separate website is what we SHOULD prefer, though very few use it. I believe that most of you would agree the using the app and website should be designed correctly so that it is equally accessible and usable for blind and sighted users. Separation is never equal.
 
So, why is it that when one calls the departments that provide customer service on using their hardware devices, which include accessible features such as voice view, the reps are not trained on those modes and want to send us to the Accessibility Department? Tonight when trying to set up my new Echo Show, the rep insisted that I could only use it by visually reading the screen. She was adamant about this fact, though I knew that wasn't the case. The standard help file they send out has no reference to using the device non-visually, not even a link! The Accessibility department is a misnomer, in fact, a rep from that department referred to it as "search and rescue" which may be a more apt title. They certainly don't have the tools to allow them to use their apps with voice on either iOS or Android! At best they can give descriptions of products and put them in your cart, which is often useful.
 
But, am I wrong in believing that the device reps should be trained in using those devices by a blind person? Shouldn't they even know that it is possible, and research how to set it up?
 
I had this issue with my first Kindle Fire, three years ago, and raised quite a ruckus about it, and hoped it had been resolved. But, it obiously has not. Tonight, I spoke with a supervisor who confirmed that the reps are not trained or even told that a blind person can make the screen be accessible by voice output.
 
Am I the only one that is bothered by this attitude and its results? Am I the only one who writes to the Accessibility development team with complaints and suggestions. Several years ago, I even wrote to Jeff Bezos, and was contacted by a moron from their Executive team, who was supposedly in charge of "accessibility". He said things like: "they were really lucky to find me." "Why don't you just use the special access site?" "I used to have a blind friend" and worst of all was going to hire Freedom Scientific, who he had met at CSUN, to come in and give JAWS training to a group of developers while blindfolded! I asked him why they needed to be blindfolded, instead of just turning off the screen, and his reply was "but then, they could see the keyboard!" I pointed out that the developers needed training on coding for accessibility.more than learning JAWS, but he was a know-it-all. He refused to attend consumer conventions, saying that he had no time for that. I don't know if he is still there, but, he caused more problems than fixing anything.
 
Anyway, I am sorry that this seems like a useless rant, but, I would like input from others, of how to address this mindset problem. Is it just me, and an unrealistic belief in full inclusion, or, is it a problem for others?
 
Thanks,
 
 



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locked Re: Amazon: Am I the only one that feels this way?

Marie
 

I am 78, no tech genious, but switched from an IPhone 8 to the 11 Pro with no home button. It was difficult for about three days and now I prefer the new methods.
 

From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Monday, October 19, 2020 7:39 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Amazon: Am I the only one that feels this way?
 
On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 10:33 AM, Rob Hudson wrote:
Not entirely true.
-
Yes, entirely true.   I didn't say, "It's just as easy as it ever was."  It isn't as easy for me as it was when I was in my youth, but it is mighty far from impossible.

I get that different things are more or less difficult for different people.  I also know that accessibility across the spectrum has improved, radically, over the last 30 years.

None of us get our personal choice of what hardware, software, or interfaces (physical versus virtual buttons, as but one example), are available.  And there are times when certain changes will make it more difficult for a given individual, not less so, but that cannot be escaped as a general thing with change, no matter what the direction.

To quote the Rolling Stones, "You can't always get what you want, but you get what you need."  (And "getting what you want" has been awfully common in accessibiity, too, in recent years).  Sometimes, though, it's you that has to do the adjusting whether you like it or not.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.

        ~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com


locked Re: Amazon: Am I the only one that feels this way?

Marie
 

Wow! Do I ever agree with this and the ongoing discussion over and over. Total accessibility for the blind is just not realistic in so many ways.
Marie

-----Original Message-----
From: Dave
Sent: Monday, October 19, 2020 7:21 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Amazon: Am I the only one that feels this way?

I loved this-


And I can't afford a chauffeur. Am I entitled, because I'm blind and
can't afford one, to have one provided, on 24 hour call on accessibility
grounds?



This one had me busting out laughing this morning. Very Good post Gene.

It is refreshing to hear someone with a bit of reason addressing those
who Scream for Equality when they have no idea what it is they are
demanding.


After saying that, I do wish that manufacturers would spend a bit more
money developing more in the way of Accessibility for the Blind, whether
it be for Software, Web Sites, or Wash Machines and Stoves.

I would love it if KORG would make some of the upper end Keyboards
Accessible. Hell, I would even pay more for a Module to plug in that
made the normal Keyboard accessible.

But, as far as I know, to operate one of their machines is still an
acrobatic act and lots of memorization.

I know when I worked for a Software Development Company, the Boss was
always attempting to get the most out of the Development Staff as these
folks were the highest paid employees in the Company.

Several times, I had the chance to put in a request that alterations be
done to make the software more accessible. And almost always, the Boss
would ask me, Dave, How many customers do you think are effected by our
program having less in the way of accessibility?

And I would have to say, probably about 50 to 100. And even then, I was
Padding my numbers. Knowing that the Boss wasn't going to do anything
until those numbers were approaching 1000 or more.

The blind, while a minority Group, is rather small when it comes to the
numbers of those who would be customers of any Company.

I use Amazon fairly often, and I have learned how to navigate their
normal web site, and I did have some learning trials, but once I figured
out their way of doing things, I have little problem now, other than
wading through the volumes of information found on just about every screen.


I find that when it comes to the Blind, it is just about impossible to
make them all Happy. Some catch on very quickly, and others never do.
And those who don't will be the ones that will cry for better
accessibility laws and someone ought to do something for us poor blind
etc. etc. And then in the same breath, they will tell me they are just
as productive as any Sighted person, and that they are independent and
can do anything they wish to do Bla Bla Bla!


Guess the question is when to draw the line when it comes to
accessibility. How much is enough, and what about those who need even
more assistance?

eventually, someone has to make a decision, and usually it is made by
figuring in the Cost in both time and money.

I Dream of the day when Development Staff all know there are Blind
people in the World and some might want to use the products they are
creating.

Some are stunned to find out a Blind person might want to use a phone,
or a Microwave, or a Computer Game! Not Kidding.

Not sure just what level of Hell these folks place the Blind, but few
ever think of Accessibility. They are just trying to meet the Deadline
the Boss has put down for the program to be done, which is targeted for
the General public, where most are sighted.

Grumpy Dave


locked Re: Amazon: Am I the only one that feels this way?

 

Leedy Diane Bomar wrote:
So, why is it that when one calls the departments that provide customer service on using their hardware devices, which include accessible features such as voice view, the reps are not trained on those modes and want to send us to the Accessibility Department?
-
Do you not understand several things:
1.  Blind people are a tiny minority of the population, and, by extension, compose a tiny number of support calls.

2.  A great deal of what blind people call about is issues with accessibility, it is not cost effective, nor efficient, to try to train every support rep in an area that they may very well never actually have a question on over a period of years.

3. How darned lucky you are that there now exist dedicated tech support teams for disability related/accessibility related issues?

For heaven's sake, not only is it available, but it's available for no cost, and from those who specialize in it at an organization!  You couldn't please some people no matter how hard you tried!  The level of support now available, at no cost, and with subject-matter specialists to those using disability-related software is something that those of us in the general public would give our eye teeth to have available to us for non-disability related issues with the same things, but we don't, and we won't, either.  The degree of whining and willful metaphorical blindness in complaining about having dedicated teams of disability related tech support specialists available is jaw-dropping!
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.

        ~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com


Re: email question

Marie
 

I do use Eloquence and have for almost twenty years and find it the best for pronouncing words. But I have to agree with Pam on this issue. I just wote an extremely long message with no pauses and the Vocalizer Ava voice handled it perfectly. and I do get annoyed with the way Eloquence handles the same message.
Marie

-----Original Message-----
From: Pamela Dominguez
Sent: Monday, October 19, 2020 9:49 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] email question

That is if you use eloquence, whether you are using jaws, or not. That's
one of the things I hate about the beloved eloquence everybody speaks so
lovingly about. I hate it. Pam.

-----Original Message-----
From: Sharon S
Sent: Monday, October 19, 2020 1:27 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] email question

Hi, I don't know about personally running out of breath with one of these
messages. However, I have had jaws sounding like he needs to take a breath
in one of those sort of messages. It is quite funny and you can almost hear
him taking a deep breath at the end of the message.

From Shaz.
Canberra, Australia.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ann
Parsons
Sent: Monday, 19 October 2020 2:26 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] email question

Hi all,

Yes, Siri is notorious for this kind of debacle. The messages that make me
laugh the most are the ones where the person dictating doesn't voice any
punctuation marks and you get a long email where in order to read it you
have to take a deep breath, and then, start speaking and hope that your air
lasts through the whole message. At the end you can actually hear yourself
gasping for breath. It's a complete hoot!

Ann P.

--
Ann K. Parsons
Portal Tutoring
EMAIL: akp@...
Author of The Demmies: http://www.dldbooks.com/annparsons/
Portal Tutoring web site: http://www.portaltutoring.info
Skype: Putertutor

"All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost."











--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com


locked Re: Amazon: Am I the only one that feels this way?

Pamela Dominguez
 

No, it’s not just you.  I think we should have full inclusion, too, but I haven’t gone as far as you have with it.  But I agree; separate is not equal.  They should have learned that by now.  Pam.
 

Sent: Monday, October 19, 2020 3:58 AM
Subject: [TechTalk] Amazon: Am I the only one that feels this way?
 
I believe in inclusion. Amazon has improved significantly over the last ten years in this area. We can now use their hardward devices, including those with screens. But, they still have a long way to go as far as their app and web site are concerned.
 
My issue is a mindset and culture concern. We are still considered a "special" group. In other words, they still think that a separate website is what we SHOULD prefer, though very few use it. I believe that most of you would agree the using the app and website should be designed correctly so that it is equally accessible and usable for blind and sighted users. Separation is never equal.
 
So, why is it that when one calls the departments that provide customer service on using their hardware devices, which include accessible features such as voice view, the reps are not trained on those modes and want to send us to the Accessibility Department? Tonight when trying to set up my new Echo Show, the rep insisted that I could only use it by visually reading the screen. She was adamant about this fact, though I knew that wasn't the case. The standard help file they send out has no reference to using the device non-visually, not even a link! The Accessibility department is a misnomer, in fact, a rep from that department referred to it as "search and rescue" which may be a more apt title. They certainly don't have the tools to allow them to use their apps with voice on either iOS or Android! At best they can give descriptions of products and put them in your cart, which is often useful.
 
But, am I wrong in believing that the device reps should be trained in using those devices by a blind person? Shouldn't they even know that it is possible, and research how to set it up?
 
I had this issue with my first Kindle Fire, three years ago, and raised quite a ruckus about it, and hoped it had been resolved. But, it obiously has not. Tonight, I spoke with a supervisor who confirmed that the reps are not trained or even told that a blind person can make the screen be accessible by voice output.
 
Am I the only one that is bothered by this attitude and its results? Am I the only one who writes to the Accessibility development team with complaints and suggestions. Several years ago, I even wrote to Jeff Bezos, and was contacted by a moron from their Executive team, who was supposedly in charge of "accessibility". He said things like: "they were really lucky to find me." "Why don't you just use the special access site?" "I used to have a blind friend" and worst of all was going to hire Freedom Scientific, who he had met at CSUN, to come in and give JAWS training to a group of developers while blindfolded! I asked him why they needed to be blindfolded, instead of just turning off the screen, and his reply was "but then, they could see the keyboard!" I pointed out that the developers needed training on coding for accessibility.more than learning JAWS, but he was a know-it-all. He refused to attend consumer conventions, saying that he had no time for that. I don't know if he is still there, but, he caused more problems than fixing anything.
 
Anyway, I am sorry that this seems like a useless rant, but, I would like input from others, of how to address this mindset problem. Is it just me, and an unrealistic belief in full inclusion, or, is it a problem for others?
 
Thanks,
 
 



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This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com



Re: google home number

 

On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 12:46 PM, Pamela Dominguez wrote:
Yes, but you didn’t give anybody the number. 
-
Because I expect that adults will go to that page, and search on "Phone."  We're not children here.  There are also other contact options that may not have been considered that are available there.

You can't always get what you want, but you certainly got what you needed if you're willing to spend two freakin' seconds to review Google's own source material.  Do so.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.

        ~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com


Re: google home number

Gerald Levy
 


That's because Google does not have a dedicated phone helpline for disabled customers.


Gerald



On 10/19/2020 12:46 PM, Pamela Dominguez wrote:
Yes, but you didn’t give anybody the number.  Pam.
 
Sent: Monday, October 19, 2020 12:39 AM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] google home number
 
Contact the Google Disability Support Team
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.

        ~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com




AVG logo

This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com



Re: email question

Pamela Dominguez
 

That is if you use eloquence, whether you are using jaws, or not. That's one of the things I hate about the beloved eloquence everybody speaks so lovingly about. I hate it. Pam.

-----Original Message-----
From: Sharon S
Sent: Monday, October 19, 2020 1:27 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] email question

Hi, I don't know about personally running out of breath with one of these
messages. However, I have had jaws sounding like he needs to take a breath
in one of those sort of messages. It is quite funny and you can almost hear
him taking a deep breath at the end of the message.

From Shaz.
Canberra, Australia.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ann
Parsons
Sent: Monday, 19 October 2020 2:26 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] email question

Hi all,

Yes, Siri is notorious for this kind of debacle. The messages that make me
laugh the most are the ones where the person dictating doesn't voice any
punctuation marks and you get a long email where in order to read it you
have to take a deep breath, and then, start speaking and hope that your air
lasts through the whole message. At the end you can actually hear yourself
gasping for breath. It's a complete hoot!

Ann P.

--
Ann K. Parsons
Portal Tutoring
EMAIL: akp@...
Author of The Demmies: http://www.dldbooks.com/annparsons/
Portal Tutoring web site: http://www.portaltutoring.info
Skype: Putertutor

"All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost."











--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com


Re: google home number

Pamela Dominguez
 

Yes, but you didn’t give anybody the number.  Pam.
 

Sent: Monday, October 19, 2020 12:39 AM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] google home number
 
Contact the Google Disability Support Team
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.

        ~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com




AVG logo

This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com



locked Re: Amazon: Am I the only one that feels this way?

Norman
 

O yes, I would agree that there have been 8 million cases and probably 250 k deaths. However, i firmly believe the 8m mark is low. I know of lots of people, including myself that are pretty much certain that we've had the virus but never bothered to get tested.


HTH.

On 10/19/2020 10:51 AM, chris judge wrote:
So do you believe that there haven't been over 8000000 cases in the US, and
over 200000 deaths?
Is this just fake news?

Chris Judge


-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Rob
Hudson
Sent: October 19, 2020 11:38 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Amazon: Am I the only one that feels this way?

That's easy. They want to turn covid into the new boogeyman. First it was
terrorism, now it's the big baaaaad virus. Call me a wild eyed conspiracy
theorist if you want, but I think they're are deliberately trying to foster
an atmosphere of fear.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Norman" <lists@...>
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 10:27:29 -0400
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Amazon: Am I the only one that feels this way?

I'm going to go on a bit of an off topic rant here, appoligies everyone.


She has been in complete lockdown since mid-March because of Covid
restrictions.  Visitors are not permitted to enter her tiny studio
apartment, except for facility staff and medical personell who are
wearing protective garb and equipment.  She is not allowed to leave
her apartment for any reason.  Meals are left outside her door. It's
like living in solitary confinement in a maximum security prison. All
this for $8000 a month.


This is complete and utter stupidity the way some of these poor old
people are locked up. I saw a headline somewhere a month or so ago
that was talking about the older people in homes dying because of
loneliness.
I believe such talk, i'd be climing the walls if anyone tried that on
me. How can people still justify these living conditions? i could
understand the restrictions this spring but not anymore. I suspect if
you asked the people in homes what there preference would be 90 % of
them would want to take there chances with covid.

Why can't we just lift most of the covid restrictions and go back to a
normal life?


JMT.





On 10/19/2020 10:07 AM, Gerald Levy via groups.io wrote:

To amplify my point a littlefurther, I have a blind, technophobic
ladyfriend who lives in an assisted living facility.  She has been
in complete lockdown since mid-March because of Covid restrictions.
Visitors are not permitted to enter her tiny studio apartment,
except for facility staff and medical personell who are wearing
protective garb and equipment.  She is not allowed to leave her
apartment for any reason.  Meals are left outside her door. It's
like living in solitary confinement in a maximum security prison.
All this for $8000 a month.   Her ten-year old Windows 7 computeris
beginning to show signs of old age.  Who is going to set up a new
computer for her if the old one dies?  The management of the
facility has already told her that if her computer, which she is
totally dependent on to communicate with the outside word, finally
dies, she will just have to learn to live without it. Thank
goodness, she still has a working land line phone, because her
Jitterbug flip phone has also been giving her trouble.  So getting
sighted tech help may be difficult to impossible right now for many
blind computer and cell phone users.

Gerald



On 10/19/2020 9:37 AM, Gerald Levy via groups.io wrote:

This is not quite true. As a blind person, you are most definitely
entitled to a special car and"chauffeur".  It's called paratransit,
and it is  a service availabel for reasonable fare in all major
cities includingChicago.  Non-disabled residents cannot take
advantage of this service.  So what if the car isn't a Rolls Royce?
It will still take you where you want to go.  So your argument
isspecious.   And by the way, sighted consumers who have dexterity
or other health issues that make using a touchscreen impossible are
just as entitled to accessible smart phones with tactile keypads or
voice command capability as blind consumers. And where do you find
sighted help to set up a smart speaker for you, anyway?  My sighted
elderly next-door neighbor wouldn't know a Google Home mini from a
kumquat.
Besides, because of the surging pandemic in most parts of the
country, it may be difficult to impossible to find a tech-savvy
sighted person who is willing  to visit your home right now. My
tech savvy friend would be happy to set one up for me. Except that
he is currently in lockdown and quarantine for the foreseeable
future, and refuses to use public  transit to visit me, because he
believes it would  be risky. And good luck trying to get help from
a social services agency.


Gerald



On 10/19/2020 8:31 AM, Gene wrote:
And I can't afford a chauffeur.  Am I entitled, because I'm blind
and can't afford one, to have one provided, on 24 hour call on
accessibility grounds?  given the amount of money I have access to
on my fixed income, a new car would be an economic burden and a
used car would be something I wouldn't want to spend money on.  Am
I entitled to one or a free state owned car and chauffeur?


And what about all the sighted people who can't afford new or
reasonably afford used cars?  Do we, as blind people deserve one
on accessibility grounds while denying cars to everyone else
because they don't have a disability?


At some point, the law stops being able to solve every conceivable
problem, and trying to do so may yield perverse or manifestly
unfair or unjust results.


And what about sighted people who can't or won't use cellular
phones?  Should they have an accessibility cause of action in this
case?  Accessibility law doesn't and has never said, that every
conceivable disability problem must be addressed.  It uses, as the
law so often does the reasonable standard.  Accessibility is to be
achieved if it does not place an undue burden on the entity in
question. Sometimes, the disabled person has to find a way to
solve a problem.


If someone sets up a Google Voice, it can be used from then on
accessibly by the blind person.  And I believe the question of
using an IPhone out of the box has been discussed on lists I
follow before and  blind people can start voiceover out of the box
without sighted assistance.


Gene

On 10/19/2020 6:57 AM, Gerald Levy via groups.io wrote:

An Apple IPhone starts at $700.  To me, this is expensive.
Accessible?  I understand thatthe the newly released IPhone 12
has no physical home button, so how would a blind consumer turn
on Voice Over without sighted help? Oh yes, I can buy a refurbed
IPhone 7 or 8 online for a few hundred dollars, still expensive
by my standards, that does have a physical home button, but
probably not at an Apple store.  And kindly provide the make and
model of an Android smart phone that has physical buttons that
can be used to set up one of these smart speakers.  I am a senior
who finds touchscreens difficult to impossible to master for a
variety of reasons, and so like many other blind consumers,
prefers a cell phone witha tactile keypad.


Gerald



On 10/19/2020 7:02 AM, John Dowling wrote:
Gerald,
I'm going to have to disagree with you there.
It's very easy to set up both an Amazon echo and google home.
There respected apps on both ios and android are very accessible.
May I ask, what smartphones were you referring to when you said
expensive and inaccessible.
Thanks,
John.

Once you replace negative thoughts with positive ones,  you'll
start having positive results. -Willie Nelson

On Oct 19, 2020, at 6:46 AM, Gerald Levy via groups.io
<bwaylimited=verizon.net@groups.io> wrote:

?


The bottom line is that both the Amazon Echo and Google Home
smart speakers were never really designed with accessibility in
mind in the first place.  To set up a Google Home device, you
need an expensive smart phone, which, itself may not be all
that accessible.  The Amazon Echo can allegedly be set up by
computer, but I have not seen any rports from blind consumers
successfully
  setting it up this way without sighted help. Large tech
companies seem to be sliding backwards when it comes to
accessibility.  For instance, PayPal, which claims that they
are dedicated to making their web site accessible, no longer
offers telephone customer support for disabled customers who
encounter problems with the site. The blindness advocacy
organizations have been uncharacteristically quiet about this
issue. Despite the problems you have described, they have never
demonstrated any inclination to take legal action against these
companies to force them to make their products, apps and
customer support more accessible and blind-friendly.  Probably
because their wimpy lawyers are afraid to challenge big bad
Amazon and Google and the likes of Jeff Bezos and Eric Schmidt.
They are only interested in litigation if they see a big payday
for themselves.  For instace, years ago when the NFB
successfully sued Target to force them to make their web site
more accessible, they pocketed $250K in punitive damages, and
since then have not bothered to regularly inspect the Target
site to ensure that it remains accessible.  In factthe Target
site, at least from my perspective, has become progressively
less accessible since thesettlement.  So we blind consumers
really have nobody fighting on our behalf for better accessibility.

Gerald



On 10/19/2020 3:58 AM, Leedy Diane Bomar wrote:
I believe in inclusion. Amazon has improved significantly over
the last ten years in this area. We can now use their hardward
devices, including those with screens. But, they still have a
long way to go as far as their app and web site are concerned.

My issue is a mindset and culture concern. We are still
considered a "special" group. In other words, they still think
that a separate website is what we SHOULD prefer, though very
few use it. I believe that most of you would agree the using
the app and website should be designed correctly so that it is
equally accessible and usable for blind and sighted users.
Separation is never equal.

So, why is it that when one calls the departments that provide
customer service on using their hardware devices, which
include accessible features such as voice view, the reps are
not trained on those modes and want to send us to the
Accessibility Department? Tonight when trying to set up my new
Echo Show, the rep insisted that I could only use it by
visually reading the screen. She was adamant about this fact,
though I knew that wasn't the case. The standard help file
they send out has no reference to using the device
non-visually, not even a link! The Accessibility department is
a misnomer, in fact, a rep from that department referred to it
as "search and rescue" which may be a more apt title. They
certainly don't have the tools to allow them to use their apps
with voice on either iOS or Android! At best they can give
descriptions of products and put them in your cart, which is often
useful.
But, am I wrong in believing that the device reps should be
trained in using those devices by a blind person? Shouldn't
they even know that it is possible, and research how to set it up?

I had this issue with my first Kindle Fire, three years ago,
and raised quite a ruckus about it, and hoped it had been
resolved.
But, it obiously has not. Tonight, I spoke with a supervisor
who confirmed that the reps are not trained or even told that
a blind person can make the screen be accessible by voice output.

Am I the only one that is bothered by this attitude and its
results? Am I the only one who writes to the Accessibility
development team with complaints and suggestions. Several
years ago, I even wrote to Jeff Bezos, and was contacted by a
moron from their Executive team, who was supposedly in charge
of "accessibility". He said things like: "they were really
lucky to find me." "Why don't you just use the special access
site?" "I used to have a blind friend" and worst of all was
going to hire Freedom Scientific, who he had met at CSUN, to
come in and give JAWS training to a group of developers while
blindfolded! I asked him why they needed to be blindfolded,
instead of just turning off the screen, and his reply was "but
then, they could see the keyboard!" I pointed out that the
developers needed training on coding for accessibility.more
than learning JAWS, but he was a know-it-all. He refused to
attend consumer conventions, saying that he had no time for
that. I don't know if he is still there, but, he caused more
problems than fixing anything.

Anyway, I am sorry that this seems like a useless rant, but, I
would like input from others, of how to address this mindset
problem. Is it just me, and an unrealistic belief in full
inclusion, or, is it a problem for others?

Thanks,













locked Re: Amazon: Am I the only one that feels this way?

Norman
 

I'm not sure which is the bigger  idiot, the one that's already there? or the one who wants to be?

The bottom line? they're both acting like idiots.

On 10/19/2020 10:47 AM, chris judge wrote:
And at the top of the list of people who don't care about these poor people
is that idiot in the white house.

Chris Judge


-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Rob
Hudson
Sent: October 19, 2020 11:34 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Amazon: Am I the only one that feels this way?

Just one side effect of this scamdemic. And nobody cares about these poor
people, at all.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gerald Levy via groups.io" <bwaylimited=verizon.net@groups.io>
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 10:07:56 -0400
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Amazon: Am I the only one that feels this way?

To amplify my point a littlefurther, I have a blind, technophobic
ladyfriend who lives in an assisted living facility.  She has been in
complete lockdown since mid-March because of Covid restrictions.
Visitors are not permitted to enter her tiny studio apartment, except
for facility staff and medical personell who are wearing protective
garb and equipment.  She is not allowed to leave her apartment for any
reason.  Meals are left outside her door. It's like living in solitary
confinement in a maximum security prison. All this for $8000 a month.
Her ten-year old Windows 7 computeris beginning to show signs of old
age.  Who is going to set up a new computer for her if the old one
dies?  The management of the facility has already told her that if her
computer, which she is totally dependent on to communicate with the
outside word, finally dies, she will just have to learn to live
without it.  Thank goodness, she still has a working land line phone,
because her Jitterbug flip phone has also been giving her trouble.  So
getting sighted tech help may be difficult to impossible right now for
many blind computer and cell phone users.


Gerald



On 10/19/2020 9:37 AM, Gerald Levy via groups.io wrote:

This is not quite true. As a blind person, you are most definitely
entitled to a special car and"chauffeur".  It's called paratransit,
and it is  a service availabel for reasonable fare in all major
cities includingChicago.  Non-disabled residents cannot take
advantage of this service.  So what if the car isn't a Rolls Royce?
It will still take you where you want to go.  So your argument
isspecious.   And by the way, sighted consumers who have dexterity
or other health issues that make using a touchscreen impossible are
just as entitled to accessible smart phones with tactile keypads or
voice command capability as blind consumers. And where do you find
sighted help to set up a smart speaker for you, anyway?  My sighted
elderly next-door neighbor wouldn't know a Google Home mini from a
kumquat. Besides, because of the surging pandemic in most parts of
the country, it may be difficult to impossible to find a tech-savvy
sighted person who is willing to visit your home right now. My tech
savvy friend would be happy to set one up for me.  Except that he is
currently in lockdown and quarantine for the foreseeable future, and
refuses to use public transit to visit me, because he believes it
would  be risky. And good luck trying to get help from a social services
agency.

Gerald



On 10/19/2020 8:31 AM, Gene wrote:
And I can't afford a chauffeur.  Am I entitled, because I'm blind
and can't afford one, to have one provided, on 24 hour call on
accessibility grounds?  given the amount of money I have access to
on my fixed income, a new car would be an economic burden and a
used car would be something I wouldn't want to spend money on.  Am
I entitled to one or a free state owned car and chauffeur?


And what about all the sighted people who can't afford new or
reasonably afford used cars?  Do we, as blind people deserve one on
accessibility grounds while denying cars to everyone else because
they don't have a disability?


At some point, the law stops being able to solve every conceivable
problem, and trying to do so may yield perverse or manifestly
unfair or unjust results.


And what about sighted people who can't or won't use cellular
phones?  Should they have an accessibility cause of action in this
case?  Accessibility law doesn't and has never said, that every
conceivable disability problem must be addressed.  It uses, as the
law so often does the reasonable standard. Accessibility is to be
achieved if it does not place an undue burden on the entity in
question.  Sometimes, the disabled person has to find a way to
solve a problem.


If someone sets up a Google Voice, it can be used from then on
accessibly by the blind person.  And I believe the question of
using an IPhone out of the box has been discussed on lists I follow
before and  blind people can start voiceover out of the box without
sighted assistance.


Gene

On 10/19/2020 6:57 AM, Gerald Levy via groups.io wrote:

An Apple IPhone starts at $700.  To me, this is expensive.
Accessible?  I understand thatthe the newly released IPhone 12
has no physical home button, so how would a blind consumer turn on
Voice Over without sighted help? Oh yes, I can buy a refurbed
IPhone 7 or
8 online for a few hundred dollars, still expensive by my
standards, that does have a physical home button, but probably not
at an Apple store. And kindly provide the make and model of an
Android smart phone that has physical buttons that can be used to
set up one of these smart speakers.  I am a senior who finds
touchscreens difficult to impossible to master for a variety of
reasons, and so like many other blind consumers, prefers a cell
phone witha tactile keypad.


Gerald



On 10/19/2020 7:02 AM, John Dowling wrote:
Gerald,
I'm going to have to disagree with you there.
It's very easy to set up both an Amazon echo and google home.
There respected apps on both ios and android are very accessible.
May I ask, what smartphones were you referring to when you said
expensive and inaccessible.
Thanks,
John.

Once you replace negative thoughts with positive ones,  you'll
start having positive results. -Willie Nelson

On Oct 19, 2020, at 6:46 AM, Gerald Levy via groups.io
<bwaylimited=verizon.net@groups.io> wrote:

?


The bottom line is that both the Amazon Echo and Google Home
smart speakers were never really designed with accessibility in
mind in the first place.  To set up a Google Home device, you
need an expensive smart phone, which, itself may not be all that
accessible.  The Amazon Echo can allegedly be set up by
computer, but I have not seen any rports from blind consumers
successfully setting it up this way without sighted help. Large
tech companies seem to be sliding backwards when it comes to
accessibility.  For instance, PayPal, which claims that they are
dedicated to making their web site accessible, no longer offers
telephone customer support for disabled customers who encounter
problems with the site. The blindness advocacy organizations
have been uncharacteristically quiet about this issue.  Despite
the problems you have described, they have never demonstrated
any inclination to take legal action against these companies to
force them to make their products, apps and customer support
more accessible and blind-friendly.  Probably because their
wimpy lawyers are afraid to challenge big bad Amazon and Google
and the likes of Jeff Bezos and Eric Schmidt.  They are only
interested in litigation if they see a big payday for
themselves.  For instace, years ago when the NFB successfully
sued Target to force them to make their web site more
accessible, they pocketed $250K in punitive damages, and since
then have not bothered to regularly inspect the Target site to
ensure that it remains accessible. In factthe Target site, at
least from my perspective, has become progressively less
accessible since thesettlement.  So we blind consumers really have
nobody fighting on our behalf for better accessibility.
Gerald



On 10/19/2020 3:58 AM, Leedy Diane Bomar wrote:
I believe in inclusion. Amazon has improved significantly over
the last ten years in this area. We can now use their hardward
devices, including those with screens. But, they still have a
long way to go as far as their app and web site are concerned.

My issue is a mindset and culture concern. We are still
considered a "special" group. In other words, they still think
that a separate website is what we SHOULD prefer, though very
few use it. I believe that most of you would agree the using
the app and website should be designed correctly so that it is
equally accessible and usable for blind and sighted users.
Separation is never equal.

So, why is it that when one calls the departments that provide
customer service on using their hardware devices, which include
accessible features such as voice view, the reps are not
trained on those modes and want to send us to the Accessibility
Department? Tonight when trying to set up my new Echo Show, the
rep insisted that I could only use it by visually reading the
screen. She was adamant about this fact, though I knew that
wasn't the case. The standard help file they send out has no
reference to using the device non-visually, not even a link!
The Accessibility department is a misnomer, in fact, a rep from
that department referred to it as "search and rescue" which may
be a more apt title. They certainly don't have the tools to
allow them to use their apps with voice on either iOS or
Android! At best they can give descriptions of products and put
them in your cart, which is often useful.

But, am I wrong in believing that the device reps should be
trained in using those devices by a blind person? Shouldn't
they even know that it is possible, and research how to set it up?

I had this issue with my first Kindle Fire, three years ago,
and raised quite a ruckus about it, and hoped it had been resolved.
But, it obiously has not. Tonight, I spoke with a supervisor
who confirmed that the reps are not trained or even told that a
blind person can make the screen be accessible by voice output.

Am I the only one that is bothered by this attitude and its
results? Am I the only one who writes to the Accessibility
development team with complaints and suggestions. Several years
ago, I even wrote to Jeff Bezos, and was contacted by a moron
from their Executive team, who was supposedly in charge of
"accessibility". He said things like: "they were really lucky
to find me." "Why don't you just use the special access site?"
"I used to have a blind friend" and worst of all was going to
hire Freedom Scientific, who he had met at CSUN, to come in and
give JAWS training to a group of developers while blindfolded!
I asked him why they needed to be blindfolded, instead of just
turning off the screen, and his reply was "but then, they could
see the keyboard!" I pointed out that the developers needed
training on coding for accessibility.more than learning JAWS,
but he was a know-it-all. He refused to attend consumer
conventions, saying that he had no time for that. I don't know
if he is still there, but, he caused more problems than fixing
anything.
Anyway, I am sorry that this seems like a useless rant, but, I
would like input from others, of how to address this mindset
problem. Is it just me, and an unrealistic belief in full
inclusion, or, is it a problem for others?

Thanks,













locked Re: Amazon: Am I the only one that feels this way?

 

On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 12:22 PM, Gerald Levy wrote:
"Small" is a relative term. 
-
Not in terms of proportion of population it isn't.  And that's what matters when it comes to having to make decisions about resource allocation, since resources of any sort are not infinite, and even among the resources allocated decisions about priorities will have to be made.  'Twas ever thus.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.

        ~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com


locked Re: Amazon: Am I the only one that feels this way?

Gerald Levy
 


"Small" is a relative term.  If millions of baby boomers experience sight loss due to AMD, glaucoma or other causes,in the coming years as many experts have predicted, then this is more than a "small" minority.  And what about all those baby boomers who will invariably experience serious complications from the Corona virus if they are lucky enough to survive and need ongoing help in the near future? Who is going to take care of them?  


Gerald



On 10/19/2020 11:54 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 11:44 AM, Gerald Levy wrote:
So yes, there will certainly be a surge in baby boomers who experience sight loss in the coming years and need help to remain independent. 
-
But that's not what the central assertion was.  Even with a surge, the proportion of the population at large, including among the baby boomers, who are blind or visually impaired will still remain a small minority.

It may be a larger small minority, but it will still be a small minority.

And I'll happily stand corrected on macular degeneration being the leading cause of vision loss among seniors.  It's probably assumed that position since cataracts have become almost, though not entirely, completely treatable making their effects reversible.  I know that's not true of MD, at least not now/yet.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.

        ~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com