Date   

Re: google home number

Rob Hudson
 

You mean, teach him how to fish and he'll sit out in his boat drinking beer all day.
Grin.

----- Original Message -----
From: "chris judge" <chrisjudge1967@gmail.com>
To: <main@TechTalk.groups.io>
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 17:50:57 -0300
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] google home number

It really isnt though. Anyone sitting behind a keyboard doing what were doing is capable of conducting a google search, and if theyre not we should be helping them learn how to help themselves, not handing everything out on a silver platter.

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, teach a man to fish and you feed him for life, and all that.



Chris Judge

<http://www.freedomscientific.com/Certification>



From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gerald Levy via groups.io
Sent: October 19, 2020 3:06 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] google home number





As usual, your response is arrogant and condescending. You accused me earlier of being "nasty", for which I apologize. But telling a fellow list member to esentially go "look it up herself" is equally as nasty. If she could find the phone number herself, she wouldn't be asking for help on this list in the first place. Try to be a little more patient and understanding with fellow blind list members who may not beas as adept as you at searching the web for information before you post a response. .



Gerald





On 10/19/2020 12:57 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 12:46 PM, Pamela Dominguez wrote:

Yes, but you didnt give anybody the number.

-
Because I expect that adults will go to that page, and search on "Phone." We're not children here. There are also other contact options that may not have been considered that are available there.

You can't always get what you want, but you certainly got what you needed if you're willing to spend two freakin' seconds to review Google's own source material. Do so.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.

~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com










Re: google home number

Alex Stone
 

Chris, I completely agree!

On 19 Oct 2020, at 21:51, chris judge <chrisjudge1967@...> wrote:



It really isn’t though. Anyone sitting behind a keyboard doing what we’re doing is capable of conducting a google search, and if they’re not we should be helping them learn how to help themselves, not handing everything out on a silver platter.

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, teach a man to fish and you feed him for life, and all that.

 

Chris Judge

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gerald Levy via groups.io
Sent: October 19, 2020 3:06 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] google home number

 

 

As usual, your response is arrogant and condescending.  You accused me earlier of being "nasty",  for which I apologize.  But telling a fellow list member to esentially go "look it up herself" is equally as nasty.  If she could find the phone number herself, she wouldn't be asking for help on this list in the first place.  Try to be a little more patient and understanding with fellow blind list members who may not beas as adept as you at searching the web for information before you post a response.   .

 

Gerald

 

 

On 10/19/2020 12:57 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 12:46 PM, Pamela Dominguez wrote:

Yes, but you didn’t give anybody the number. 

-
Because I expect that adults will go to that page, and search on "Phone."  We're not children here.  There are also other contact options that may not have been considered that are available there.

You can't always get what you want, but you certainly got what you needed if you're willing to spend two freakin' seconds to review Google's own source material.  Do so.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.

        ~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com


Re: Admin. the discussion about accessibility and other topics

Marie <magpie.mn@...>
 

Thanks!

-----Original Message-----
From: Gene
Sent: Monday, October 19, 2020 12:15 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: [TechTalk] Admin. the discussion about accessibility and other topics

this topic is taking a lot of time and space on the list. It has also moved
into areas such as politics. While a certain amount of discussion of
accessibility as an issue, and I even let a little politics slip in at rare
times if it is a very small part of a larger thread, keeps the list lively,
such wide ranging discussions easily become divisive and a lot of people
don't want to see so much traffic. I am therefore closing the topic.
Anyone who wishes may discuss this issue and pretty much anything else on
the chat list, the address for joining is provided in the footers of every
message.

Gene, owner


Re: google home number

chris judge
 

It really isn’t though. Anyone sitting behind a keyboard doing what we’re doing is capable of conducting a google search, and if they’re not we should be helping them learn how to help themselves, not handing everything out on a silver platter.

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, teach a man to fish and you feed him for life, and all that.

 

Chris Judge

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gerald Levy via groups.io
Sent: October 19, 2020 3:06 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] google home number

 

 

As usual, your response is arrogant and condescending.  You accused me earlier of being "nasty",  for which I apologize.  But telling a fellow list member to esentially go "look it up herself" is equally as nasty.  If she could find the phone number herself, she wouldn't be asking for help on this list in the first place.  Try to be a little more patient and understanding with fellow blind list members who may not beas as adept as you at searching the web for information before you post a response.   .

 

Gerald

 

 

On 10/19/2020 12:57 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 12:46 PM, Pamela Dominguez wrote:

Yes, but you didn’t give anybody the number. 

-
Because I expect that adults will go to that page, and search on "Phone."  We're not children here.  There are also other contact options that may not have been considered that are available there.

You can't always get what you want, but you certainly got what you needed if you're willing to spend two freakin' seconds to review Google's own source material.  Do so.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.

        ~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com


Re: google home number

g melconian <gmelconian619@...>
 

Come on now.bryan helps out on all the groups that I have been subscribed to and have gotten lots of help from him in the past . 

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Monday, October 19, 2020 1:04 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] google home number

 

Laz,

           I can count on less than two hands the names I'm seeing on this group that I do not see, regularly, on several others.  I do not feel the need to declare, every other day and on every group where I know others know me (and often well) that I am fully sighted.

           No one can say that I have been anything but forthcoming about that.  And you know that as well as anyone.

           And I certainly feel no need to announce my sighted status when it is not germane, and expecting someone to click-through on a link that contains exactly what they asked about certainly has nothing to do with whether I am sighted or they are sighted.  It's simply what you do, not comment that the silver platter that the information was presented on was not quite shiny enough.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.

        ~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com


Re: google home number

Gene
 

I'll make the following observations:
I used to do that sort of thing years ago but all I do now is explain what I did at times, such as I'll say, a search for this or that showed the following result or I may explain how to do something using a program but not say anything directive other than perhaps to say it is a good way to do whatever is being discussed or explain why it is better than other ways I've tried to do something, if I have tried others and if this way is better.

For whatever reason, going farther causes many people to feel as though they are being pressured to do something and it causes contention on lists, at least on lists primarily of blind users. I haven't been on primarily sighted lists where this sort of thing has come up.

I believe that one useful function of lists like this is to give people more confidence and help them learn that they can do things they may not have realized they can do. many people are somewhat afraid of computers and if lists like this lessen fear and increase confidence, that's a useful function. and speaking specifically of many blind people, due to inadequate or poor training, lists like this may help develop knowledge and confidence they might have gotten from training, but didn't. But since I have found that attempts to do so, if expressed in certain ways, regardless of intent, cause contention and misunderstandings, I avoid those ways.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Laz
Sent: Monday, October 19, 2020 3:11 PM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] google home number

So what exactly, is wrong with my statement of a truth Brian?

Why does it seem to upset you so?

Laz

On 10/19/20, Brian Vogel <britechguy@gmail.com> wrote:
Laz,

I can count on less than two hands the names I'm seeing on this group that I
do not see, regularly, on several others. I do not feel the need to
declare, every other day and on every group where I know others know me (and
often well) that I am fully sighted.

No one can say that I have been anything but forthcoming about that. And
you know that as well as anyone.

And I certainly feel no need to announce my sighted status when it is not
germane, and expecting someone to click-through on a link that contains
exactly what they asked about certainly has nothing to do with whether I am
sighted or they are sighted. It's simply what you do, not comment that the
silver platter that the information was presented on was not quite shiny
enough.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

*Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely
fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.*

~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com






Something interesting that may be of importance

Gene
 

I have recently had an intermittent problem with Windows Live Mail but what I found out may be of benefit to people using other programs as well.

Now and then, I can't navigate around the program. If I check, it is still maximized, as it was but the solution I've found is to restore it, then maximize it again.

If others find themselves in such a situation, trying this with the program involved may solve the problem, whether it occurs again or not. It takes almost no time and even if it recurrs off and on, it is just a very minor nuisance.

To restore the program, use the command alt space, hold alt and press space. Then type r. To maximize the program, use alt space, then type x. If the program is not maximized as you usually use it, try maximizing it at first, then either leave it that way or restore it again if you wish.

Gene


Re: google home number

Laz
 

So what exactly, is wrong with my statement of a truth Brian?

Why does it seem to upset you so?

Laz

On 10/19/20, Brian Vogel <britechguy@gmail.com> wrote:
Laz,

I can count on less than two hands the names I'm seeing on this group that I
do not see, regularly, on several others. I do not feel the need to
declare, every other day and on every group where I know others know me (and
often well) that I am fully sighted.

No one can say that I have been anything but forthcoming about that. And
you know that as well as anyone.

And I certainly feel no need to announce my sighted status when it is not
germane, and expecting someone to click-through on a link that contains
exactly what they asked about certainly has nothing to do with whether I am
sighted or they are sighted. It's simply what you do, not comment that the
silver platter that the information was presented on was not quite shiny
enough.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

*Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely
fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.*

~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com






Re: google home number

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

Laz,

           I can count on less than two hands the names I'm seeing on this group that I do not see, regularly, on several others.  I do not feel the need to declare, every other day and on every group where I know others know me (and often well) that I am fully sighted.

           No one can say that I have been anything but forthcoming about that.  And you know that as well as anyone.

           And I certainly feel no need to announce my sighted status when it is not germane, and expecting someone to click-through on a link that contains exactly what they asked about certainly has nothing to do with whether I am sighted or they are sighted.  It's simply what you do, not comment that the silver platter that the information was presented on was not quite shiny enough.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.

        ~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com


Re: google home number

Laz
 

Very good point Gerald.

Stay safe,

Laz

On 10/19/20, Gerald Levy via groups.io
<bwaylimited=verizon.net@groups.io> wrote:

Yes, Laz, I am well aware that he is sighted. But that is no excuse for
treating fellow blind list members with such scorn and disrespect. If
he lacks the patience to deal with blind computer users like us, then he
should probably never have joined this list in the first place.


Gerald



On 10/19/2020 2:52 PM, Laz wrote:
Ah, but that's where you're wrong Gerald; he's not a fellow blind
person. brian Vogel is a sighted person.

Stay safe,

Laz

On 10/19/20, Gerald Levy via groups.io
<bwaylimited=verizon.net@groups.io> wrote:
As usual, your response is arrogant and condescending. You accused me
earlier of being "nasty", for which I apologize. But telling a fellow
list member to esentially go "look it up herself" is equally as nasty.
If she could find the phone number herself, she wouldn't be asking for
help on this list in the first place. Try to be a little more patient
and understanding with fellow blind list members who may not beas as
adept as you at searching the web for information before you post a
response. .


Gerald



On 10/19/2020 12:57 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 12:46 PM, Pamela Dominguez wrote:

Yes, but you didn’t give anybody the number.

-
Because I expect that adults will go to that page, and search on
"Phone." We're not children here. There are also other contact
options that may not have been considered that are available there.

You can't always get what you want, but you certainly got what you
needed if you're willing to spend two freakin' seconds to review
Google's own source material. Do so.

--

Brian -Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

*Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they
rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and
on.*

~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com











Re: google home number

Laz
 

The statement of a fact is not whining Brian, at least not in most
people's minds. Although one should be more forthcoming which would
show where one is speaking from when dictating to others.

Laz

On 10/19/20, Brian Vogel <britechguy@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 02:52 PM, Laz wrote:


he's not a fellow blind person. brian Vogel is a sighted person.
-
Which I have never claimed to be nor made any attempt to hide the fact I'm
fully sighted. The fact that I'm sighted is completely irrelevant.

I presume individuals who are blind are just that, blind, not stupid,
incapable, or unable to use reference material like any sighted person
would. Activating a link and taking a look at a reference page, when
offered, is something that I expect anyone, sighted, blind, or in-between,
to do. It's not too much to ask nor is it unreasonable to ask, either.

Those who seem to think my being sighted is relevant to what I expect from
anyone are mistaken. I don't expect anything more or less, and if you don't
like what I expect you can feel free to ignore my offerings rather than
whine about them.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

*Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely
fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.*

~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com






Re: google home number

Michael Mote
 

Well said Brian.

 

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Monday, October 19, 2020 3:11 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] google home number

 

On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 02:52 PM, Laz wrote:

he's not a fellow blind person. brian Vogel is a sighted person.

-
Which I have never claimed to be nor made any attempt to hide the fact I'm fully sighted.  The fact that I'm sighted is completely irrelevant.

I presume individuals who are blind are just that, blind, not stupid, incapable, or unable to use reference material like any sighted person would.  Activating a link and taking a look at a reference page, when offered, is something that I expect anyone, sighted, blind, or in-between, to do.  It's not too much to ask nor is it unreasonable to ask, either.

Those who seem to think my being sighted is relevant to what I expect from anyone are mistaken.  I don't expect anything more or less, and if you don't like what I expect you can feel free to ignore my offerings rather than whine about them.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.

        ~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com


Re: Admin. the discussion about accessibility and other topics

Gene
 

I should add that I would have locked the topic sooner but I wasn't following the list for a few hours.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Gene via groups.io
Sent: Monday, October 19, 2020 2:15 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: [TechTalk] Admin. the discussion about accessibility and other topics

this topic is taking a lot of time and space on the list. It has also moved
into areas such as politics. While a certain amount of discussion of
accessibility as an issue, and I even let a little politics slip in at rare
times if it is a very small part of a larger thread, keeps the list lively,
such wide ranging discussions easily become divisive and a lot of people
don't want to see so much traffic. I am therefore closing the topic.
Anyone who wishes may discuss this issue and pretty much anything else on
the chat list, the address for joining is provided in the footers of every
message.

Gene, owner


Re: google home number

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 03:18 PM, Gerald Levy wrote:
If he lacks the patience to deal with blind computer users like us, then he should probably never have joined this list in the first place. 
-
That's not what I lack the patience for, and you know that darned well.  So, stop, just stop, the insulting nonsense!
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.

        ~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com


Re: google home number

Gerald Levy
 


Yes, Laz, I am well aware that he is sighted.  But that is no excuse for treating fellow blind list members with such scorn and disrespect.  If he lacks the patience to deal with blind computer users like us, then he should probably never have joined this list in the first place. 


Gerald



On 10/19/2020 2:52 PM, Laz wrote:
Ah, but that's where you're wrong Gerald; he's not a fellow blind
person. brian Vogel is a sighted person.

Stay safe,

Laz

On 10/19/20, Gerald Levy via groups.io
<bwaylimited@...> wrote:
As usual, your response is arrogant and condescending.  You accused me
earlier of being "nasty",  for which I apologize.  But telling a fellow
list member to esentially go "look it up herself" is equally as nasty.
If she could find the phone number herself, she wouldn't be asking for
help on this list in the first place.  Try to be a little more patient
and understanding with fellow blind list members who may not beas as
adept as you at searching the web for information before you post a
response.   .


Gerald



On 10/19/2020 12:57 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 12:46 PM, Pamela Dominguez wrote:

    Yes, but you didn’t give anybody the number.

-
Because I expect that adults will go to that page, and search on
"Phone."  We're not children here.  There are also other contact
options that may not have been considered that are available there.

You can't always get what you want, but you certainly got what you
needed if you're willing to spend two freakin' seconds to review
Google's own source material.  Do so.

--

Brian -Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

*Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they
rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.*

~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com












Admin. the discussion about accessibility and other topics

Gene
 

this topic is taking a lot of time and space on the list. It has also moved into areas such as politics. While a certain amount of discussion of accessibility as an issue, and I even let a little politics slip in at rare times if it is a very small part of a larger thread, keeps the list lively, such wide ranging discussions easily become divisive and a lot of people don't want to see so much traffic. I am therefore closing the topic. Anyone who wishes may discuss this issue and pretty much anything else on the chat list, the address for joining is provided in the footers of every message.

Gene, owner


Re: google home number

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 02:52 PM, Laz wrote:
he's not a fellow blind person. brian Vogel is a sighted person.
-
Which I have never claimed to be nor made any attempt to hide the fact I'm fully sighted.  The fact that I'm sighted is completely irrelevant.

I presume individuals who are blind are just that, blind, not stupid, incapable, or unable to use reference material like any sighted person would.  Activating a link and taking a look at a reference page, when offered, is something that I expect anyone, sighted, blind, or in-between, to do.  It's not too much to ask nor is it unreasonable to ask, either.

Those who seem to think my being sighted is relevant to what I expect from anyone are mistaken.  I don't expect anything more or less, and if you don't like what I expect you can feel free to ignore my offerings rather than whine about them.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.

        ~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com


locked Re: Amazon: Am I the only one that feels this way?

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 02:14 PM, Norman wrote:
they should also grant those less scared of covid the right to not where masks, stay home, go to events, etc.
-
I suggest you read a bit more on both novel pathogens and on liberty and freedom (as opposed to license, which is what you propose).  John Stuart Mill, in On Liberty, had this to say, "liberty . . . of framing the plan of our life to suit our own character; of doing as we like, subject to such consequences as may follow; without impediment from our fellow-creatures, so long as what we do does not harm them even though they should think our conduct foolish, perverse, or wrong. . ., within the same limits, of combination among individuals; freedom to unite, for any purpose not involving harm to others: the persons combining being supposed to be of full age, and not forced or deceived."

Note well, "so long as what we do does not harm them [our fellow-creatures]" and, "not forced or deceived."

If you honestly believe that not wearing masks when in public, social distancing, and other pandemic related steps are necessary to protect others from harm, you are literally ignoring all available data.  And if you believe that, for whatever reason, you have been deceived.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.

        ~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com


locked Re: Amazon: Am I the only one that feels this way?

Gene
 

First, the person is in a living home. You have no idea, or have not indicated or proven that she can't get help from a resident or staff member.

Of course, there will be people placed in difficult circumstances because of the pandemic or for other reasons. That has nothing to do with your original statements concerning accessibility and what you are discussing now has nothing to do with it either. A sighted person who knows little or nothing about computer technology except how to use it for some things would be just as unable to set up the computer, connect it to the router or connect to a wireless connection as the blind person and the blind person could do these things if they have knowledge.

You have not made a case for your contention that the Google Play is an example of regression on accessibility, nor have you demonstrated that the device is generally inaccessible. You have stated that setting it up requires other devices and you haven't demonstrated that those devices are inaccessible or unreasonably expensive. You have also not dealt with the fact that the Google Home, once it is set up, is completely accessible. You haven't said the app used to set up the device isn't accessible. You have therefore, not established one premise or contention in your argument about the inaccessibility of the device.

I don't know if your argument about businesses moving backward regarding accessibility is true in general, which is a question I don't know about, not having seen or conducted any sort of surveys.

My feeling, and its just a feeling based on this or that which I've heard and not a statement of fact, is that actually more companies are more concerned with accessibility and that legal action and a little more increase in ;public awareness has actually led to a little improvement in what is accessible.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Gerald Levy via groups.io
Sent: Monday, October 19, 2020 11:07 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Amazon: Am I the only one that feels this way?






As usual, you don't know what you are talking about. I have ordered three computers from them, so I know what I'm talking about, including the Windows 7 desktop on which I am composing this message. Read CFB's policy very carefully. When you order a computer from them, you must pledge that you have a sighted helper on hand to help you set it up. They assume that most blind consumers lack the expertise and tetechnical skills to do it all by themselves. I had my techie friend visit me and help me set it up long before the pandemic started. Do you happen to live in one of those red zones upstate in Rochester, which means even tougher lockdown restrictions? My ladyfriend happens to live in a red zone through no fault of her own. So here's my challenge to you. If I have my tech-averse ladyfriend contact you by phone, and she goes ahead and orders a computer from CFB, and she is even allowed to have it delivered to her apartment,which may not even be possible, would you be able to patiently explain over the phone how to connect all those cables without sight and get it up and running with JAWS? Never mind that MS may automatically start installing Windows 10 feature update 2004 as soon as she plugs it in, leaving her without speech for God knows how long, and no way for someone to view the monitor screen to tell her what's going on, or encounter a myriad of other unforeseen problems which would leave her with a computer that is unusable. Would you be able to help her set it up using telepathy? I think not. BTW. how is your Smart Vision phone working out? Does it still work? Too bad you can't buy one any longer.




Gerald





on


10/19/2020 10:46 AM, Ann Parsons wrote:
Hi all,

Ah Eeyore, the glass is always half empty isn't it?

Advise her to contact Computers For The Blind in TX. "Please call our Customer Service number at 214-340-6328 to see how we can help you."

http://www.computersfortheblind.org

These people put all the software you need and set the computer up, so all you need to do is plug it in. They're currently shipping win10, but learning that isn't a problem. She'll get the boxes, unpack them and just put everything together. I'm sure an aide is up to that task.

Yes, they are refurbished, but they have an excellent reputation. She can pay about $200.00 and be off and running again.

Anyone who's paying $8,000.00 a month can afford computer training via phone. I wouldn't be surprised if one of her aides isn't savvy enough to set up her email for her. Comes with Jaws for a year, LibreOffice and some other stuff, probably Thunderbird.

Ann P.

Original message:


To amplify my point a littlefurther, I have a blind, technophobic ladyfriend who lives in an assisted living facility. She has been in complete lockdown since mid-March because of Covid restrictions. Visitors are not permitted to enter her tiny studio apartment, except for facility staff and medical personell who are wearing protective garb and equipment. She is not allowed to leave her apartment for any reason. Meals are left outside her door. It's like living in solitary confinement in a maximum security prison. All this for $8000 a month. Her ten-year old Windows 7 computeris beginning to show signs of old age. Who is going to set up a new computer for her if the old one dies? The management of the facility has already told her that if her computer, which she is totally dependent on to communicate with the outside word, finally dies, she will just have to learn to live without it. Thank goodness, she still has a working land line phone, because her Jitterbug flip phone has also been giving her trouble. So getting sighted tech help may be difficult to impossible right now for many blind computer and cell phone users.


Gerald



On 10/19/2020 9:37 AM, Gerald Levy via groups.io wrote:



This is not quite true. As a blind person, you are most definitely entitled to a special car and"chauffeur". It's called paratransit, and it is a service availabel for reasonable fare in all major cities includingChicago. Non-disabled residents cannot take advantage of this service. So what if the car isn't a Rolls Royce? It will still take you where you want to go. So your argument isspecious. And by the way, sighted consumers who have dexterity or other health issues that make using a touchscreen impossible are just as entitled to accessible smart phones with tactile keypads or voice command capability as blind consumers. And where do you find sighted help to set up a smart speaker for you, anyway? My sighted elderly next-door neighbor wouldn't know a Google Home mini from a kumquat. Besides, because of the surging pandemic in most parts of the country, it may be difficult to impossible to find a tech-savvy sighted person who is willing to visit your home right now. My tech savvy friend would be happy to set one up for me. Except that he is currently in lockdown and quarantine for the foreseeable future, and refuses to use public transit to visit me, because he believes it would be risky. And good luck trying to get help from a social services agency.



Gerald



On 10/19/2020 8:31 AM, Gene wrote:


And I can't afford a chauffeur. Am I entitled, because I'm blind and can't afford one, to have one provided, on 24 hour call on accessibility grounds? given the amount of money I have access to on my fixed income, a new car would be an economic burden and a used car would be something I wouldn't want to spend money on. Am I entitled to one or a free state owned car and chauffeur?



And what about all the sighted people who can't afford new or reasonably afford used cars? Do we, as blind people deserve one on accessibility grounds while denying cars to everyone else because they don't have a disability?


At some point, the law stops being able to solve every conceivable problem, and trying to do so may yield perverse or manifestly unfair or unjust results.



And what about sighted people who can't or won't use cellular phones? Should they have an accessibility cause of action in this case? Accessibility law doesn't and has never said, that every conceivable disability problem must be addressed. It uses, as the law so often does the reasonable standard. Accessibility is to be achieved if it does not place an undue burden on the entity in question. Sometimes, the disabled person has to find a way to solve a problem.



If someone sets up a Google Voice, it can be used from then on accessibly by the blind person. And I believe the question of using an IPhone out of the box has been discussed on lists I follow before and blind people can start voiceover out of the box without sighted assistance.



Gene

On 10/19/2020 6:57 AM, Gerald Levy via groups.io wrote:



An Apple IPhone starts at $700. To me, this is expensive. Accessible? I understand thatthe the newly released IPhone 12 has no physical home button, so how would a blind consumer turn on Voice Over without sighted help? Oh yes, I can buy a refurbed IPhone 7 or 8 online for a few hundred dollars, still expensive by my standards, that does have a physical home button, but probably not at an Apple store. And kindly provide the make and model of an Android smart phone that has physical buttons that can be used to set up one of these smart speakers. I am a senior who finds touchscreens difficult to impossible to master for a variety of reasons, and so like many other blind consumers, prefers a cell phone witha tactile keypad.


Gerald



On 10/19/2020 7:02 AM, John Dowling wrote:


Gerald,
I'm going to have to disagree with you there.
It's very easy to set up both an Amazon echo and google home. There respected apps on both ios and android are very accessible.
May I ask, what smartphones were you referring to when you said expensive and inaccessible.
Thanks,
John.


Once you replace negative thoughts with positive ones, you'll start having positive results. -Willie Nelson


On Oct 19, 2020, at 6:46 AM, Gerald Levy via groups.io mailto:bwaylimited=verizon.net@groups.io mailto:bwaylimited=verizon.net@groups.io wrote:






The bottom line is that both the Amazon Echo and Google Home smart speakers were never really designed with accessibility in mind in the first place. To set up a Google Home device, you need an expensive smart phone, which, itself may not be all that accessible. The Amazon Echo can allegedly be set up by computer, but I have not seen any rports from blind consumers successfully setting it up this way without sighted help. Large tech companies seem to be sliding backwards when it comes to accessibility. For instance, PayPal, which claims that they are dedicated to making their web site accessible, no longer offers telephone customer support for disabled customers who encounter problems with the site. The blindness advocacy organizations have been uncharacteristically quiet about this issue. Despite the problems you have described, they have never demonstrated any inclination to take legal action against these companies to force them to make their products, apps and customer support more accessible and blind-friendly. Probably because their wimpy lawyers are afraid to challenge big bad Amazon and Google and the likes of Jeff Bezos and Eric Schmidt. They are only interested in litigation if they see a big payday for themselves. For instace, years ago when the NFB successfully sued Target to force them to make their web site more accessible, they pocketed $250K in punitive damages, and since then have not bothered to regularly inspect the Target site to ensure that it remains accessible. In factthe Target site, at least from my perspective, has become progressively less accessible since thesettlement. So we blind consumers really have nobody fighting on our behalf for better accessibility.

Gerald



On 10/19/2020 3:58 AM, Leedy Diane Bomar wrote:


I believe in inclusion. Amazon has improved significantly over the last ten years in this area. We can now use their hardward devices, including those with screens. But, they still have a long way to go as far as their app and web site are concerned.

My issue is a mindset and culture concern. We are still considered a "special" group. In other words, they still think that a separate website is what we SHOULD prefer, though very few use it. I believe that most of you would agree the using the app and website should be designed correctly so that it is equally accessible and usable for blind and sighted users. Separation is never equal.

So, why is it that when one calls the departments that provide customer service on using their hardware devices, which include accessible features such as voice view, the reps are not trained on those modes and want to send us to the Accessibility Department? Tonight when trying to set up my new Echo Show, the rep insisted that I could only use it by visually reading the screen. She was adamant about this fact, though I knew that wasn't the case. The standard help file they send out has no reference to using the device non-visually, not even a link! The Accessibility department is a misnomer, in fact, a rep from that department referred to it as "search and rescue" which may be a more apt title. They certainly don't have the tools to allow them to use their apps with voice on either iOS or Android! At best they can give descriptions of products and put them in your cart, which is often useful.

But, am I wrong in believing that the device reps should be trained in using those devices by a blind person? Shouldn't they even know that it is possible, and research how to set it up?

I had this issue with my first Kindle Fire, three years ago, and raised quite a ruckus about it, and hoped it had been resolved. But, it obiously has not. Tonight, I spoke with a supervisor who confirmed that the reps are not trained or even told that a blind person can make the screen be accessible by voice output.

Am I the only one that is bothered by this attitude and its results? Am I the only one who writes to the Accessibility development team with complaints and suggestions. Several years ago, I even wrote to Jeff Bezos, and was contacted by a moron from their Executive team, who was supposedly in charge of "accessibility". He said things like: "they were really lucky to find me." "Why don't you just use the special access site?" "I used to have a blind friend" and worst of all was going to hire Freedom Scientific, who he had met at CSUN, to come in and give JAWS training to a group of developers while blindfolded! I asked him why they needed to be blindfolded, instead of just turning off the screen, and his reply was "but then, they could see the keyboard!" I pointed out that the developers needed training on coding for accessibility.more than learning JAWS, but he was a know-it-all. He refused to attend consumer conventions, saying that he had no time for that. I don't know if he is still there, but, he caused more problems than fixing anything.

Anyway, I am sorry that this seems like a useless rant, but, I would like input from others, of how to address this mindset problem. Is it just me, and an unrealistic belief in full inclusion, or, is it a problem for others?

Thanks,


locked Re: Amazon: Am I the only one that feels this way?

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 02:41 PM, Pamela Dominguez wrote:
Yes, but why aren’t the people in the accessability department trained?
-
In most of my experience they are trained, and trained well.  But, they may not be trained in each and everything that gets thrown at them accessibility software wise.

I would imagine that JAWS as the screen reader would be the one they know best, and are expected to know best, just because it has a massive portion of the business market with a not insubstantial portion of the home user market.  They may or may not know NVDA, Narrator (though I expect that to change), ZoomText, Fusion, etc., etc., etc.

And I can guarantee you that anyone sitting at a help desk does not have infinite knowledge of anything, but they should have the resources to find a lot more than a random user could, and relatively quickly.  But sometimes "relatively quickly" will still mean that they'll need to get back to you on that.

I find those working in the support departments related to accessibility software to be way more than marginally more knowledgeable than your random help desk person, who very often knows only how to follow a script.

It's a sad fact, though, that technical support is often neither.  That's been the case for as long as I've been in the industry, which started in 1985.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.

        ~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com

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