Date   

locked Re: warning if you doing business

Victor
 

It is most unfortunate that educators are no longer teaching braille the way they once did. But it is also unfortunate that many educators at Blind schools and elsewhere limited their students to braille. Of course years ago, we had no way of knowing that there would be the kinds of technologies that exist now. Nowadays, I think it’s important to expose blind students to braille, paper braille, refreshable braille, audio and all of the technology that is currently available and whatever might become available in the future. It’s too bad that no one is making the Opticon anymore. At least I don’t think anyone is making the Opticon anymore. Someone please correct me if I’m wrong about that.

Blessings,

Victor

On Mar 7, 2020, at 3:22 PM, brian <bsackrider55@...> wrote:

 I am glad that some of you got to learn the opaton I was not so lucky. It would be like reading braille in that you are reading how words are spelled. When I was at the rehab center I wanted to learn it but I was told that I was not learning fast enough. This has been my experience even in school that if I did want to learn a new skill I was told no. Teachers don't want to teach. When somone does want to learn but teachers refuse to them thats a big problem. I have always that I did need to learn new skills becausing the ways that they were teaching me did not work. When it came to learning math they only tought the abacus and that is not real math. my teacher told that it does not teach math concepts and it is not the way that math is done by every else. He told me that sighted peopleadd from right to left but it is left to right on the abacus. The only thing that the blind school tough well was braille. At the rehab center I wanted to learn how to use the gas stove and eletronic mobility devices but I was told no. I also told them that I need to learn how to travel in areas with out sidewalks because that was my town was like at the time. I have always that I have had alot of deficenties in my education and in other skills but i always got told no you can't learn that. Thats the story of my life teachers that don't care to teach me the things that I need to know. They didn't care if I learned anything or not. We don't all learn the same but they just can't understand that. What works for you may not work for me. I don't understand why teachers don't want to teach somone who does want to learn. It would be one thing if they did try to teach me and I did not want to learn but that was not the case. Both the blind school and the rehab center were a big joke a total waist of my time I did not learn very much as I should have. I think that reason that I am so highly opinionated about braille is that was the whole focus of blind school. We had to read and write in braille and everything that we needed to read was in braille. We had to read braille and not listen to audio books it was all braille and noaudio at all. I atended the Michigan school from age 5 to age 21 and I have been totally blind from birth. All of our text books were inbraille as well as books for book reports. They could be about almost anything except romance books. We were strongly encouraged to read for pleasure not just for our school work. They toughtto highly braille over audio. We were encouraged to read braille and not just listen to tapes. If you were totally blind then braille was what you had to read not learning it was not an option. If you did not want to do your work in school then you would have to stay after school until you did even if itmeant missing your next meal. The importance of braille was always stressed and that is so neccessary for your independence. You can read whear and when ever you want. You can write down what ever you wantto or need to read later. You can play games with sighted people read just for fun and school or work. I have said how braille let me be more active in church with out braille I would not have had that. I will never understand how blind people can say that they don't want to learn braille. Perhaps it's because they did not atend a blind school like I did for most of my life. Braille has given me a much fuller life than I would have ever had with out it. I would never want to have audio as my only option and all of this high tenology can and does fail and it's often very expensive. If you lived in a totaly braille world for most of your life but it's an almost brailleless world than you might understand whear I am coming from. We now live in an almost brailleless world but if I had my choice we would have just as much braille as the sighted have had print. This would be the ideal world for me this would be just perfect. There would be only braille and no other formats. There would be no need for any audio or computer speech because everything would be in braille just like at school. Braille will always be the very best thing that has ever been invented for the blind nothing elsewill ever compear to it or be as good as it is. Nothing will or can ever replace paper braille not now and not ever. No audio or any technology we don't need any of it we need only braille paper only. The only thing that wouldeven come close would be if we could all have optacons and have teachers that would teach us how to read print that would be exceptabl. If we had optacons we could read anything that is not in braille. We would still be reading with our fingers and not with our ears. The optacon would be a close second to braille. as you know by now I will always prefer toread with my fingers and not my ears. I have to listen rather than read because thats all there is that might be your preferance but it's not mine. We should all have the right to the format of our choice and not be forced to one thats not.

Brian Sackrider

On 3/7/2020 4:00 PM, Evan Reese wrote:
I had forgotten about the Optacon in this discussion. I am fortunate enough to be able to have two of them, so I won't have to go without if I should have to send one back to Richard Oehm for repair. I hope he lives forever! <smile>
I use one of mine every day for something.
So I read print via touch. I don't think anyone would say that I'm not reading when I use an Optacon to find out what's on a print page just because I'm using a different sense than sight.
Conversely, I knew teachers at the blind school I went to who read braille with their eyes. I don't think anyone would say they weren't reading either, even though braille is a different set of symbols from print, even more so in the case of contracted braille.
So using my own statements to argue that I am not really reading braille is a misinterpretation or misunderstanding of what I actually said.
Evan
-----Original Message----- From: Carolyn Arnold
Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2020 3:20 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

When I was a medical secretary in a surgical pathology office, I used my Optacon for some dictionaries, code and drug books, patient name spelling - a lot of things. But, I had some Braille reference books and my slate and stylus for some note taking and personal filing. One of the doctors said that I worked, "in two languages."

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io [mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io] On Behalf Of Ron Canazzi
Sent: Saturday, March 7, 2020 12:38 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

Hi Evan,

Well this analysis while tightly argued, is like a biblical literalist that represents a false dialectic by only examining terminologies and factoids that support their own belief structure.

One falsehood of your argument is in semantics Since the perception of reading has been from time immemorial the use of one's eyes and printed material to intake facts derived by, thought of and/or written down by others. If so, then how is it that Braille can be thought of as the exact equivalent of print when it in fact is not. Not only is it not the same as a standard 26 character alphabet, but it also uses a different sense--that of the sense of touch to extract the ideas from the materials.

In a very strict sense of the syntactical world and using at least in part, your own rigid interpretation of 'reading' actually is, then you as a Braille reader really aren't reading in the classic sense of the word either.

That's why I believe that words serve only a function of communicating basic ideas and that there must be flexibility, discourse, investigation and relatively speaking a scientific type analysis of each and every issue for true knowledge to be obtained.

Once again, if the importance of what is known as reading is that we communicate ideas, then the mechanics as to what is defined as reading should be secondary to how the ideas are being transferred.


On 3/6/2020 9:06 PM, Evan Reese wrote:


Well, I would say that listening to an audio book is not the same as reading it, either in braille or print.
To illustrate, if I tell you a story, would you say that you had read it? No. Now, what if I write down the story and read it to you, either in person or on the phone. Would you say that you had read it? I don’t think so.
Now, suppose I make a recording of me reading the story and send it to you. Would you say that you had read it? The only difference is that, instead of reading it to you live, I’m reading it on tape, as we used to say.
So no, listening to someone read a book is not the same thing as reading it oneself. You may still get the information, but you didn’t read it if you listened to someone else read it.
I don’t think a synthetic voice makes any difference. True, it doesn’t know what it’s saying, but you still have an intermediary between yourself and the actual text, you’re still listening to (in this case), a computer translate the actual text into words. So, even though it doesn’t comprehend what it is translating, it is still reading to you in the strictest sense. You are not reading when using a synthetic voice.
But language changes, definitions change over time. It may happen soon that people will say that they are actually reading when they are listening to a voice, any voice, whether human or synthetic, read to them. Many people already say that, so I think we’re on the way. I don’t care all that much. I’ve done it myself, said that I read a book when I actually listened to someone else read it. I don’t make a big deal out of it. But you asked for thoughts, and that’s what I actually believe, even if I speak off-handedly about reading audio books.
Evan

From: David Goldfield <mailto:david.goldfield@...>
Sent: Friday, March 06, 2020 6:58 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business


I'd like to address this topic of literacy when talking about whether or not a person is able or not able to read Braille. I wrote a blog post about this a while ago as these were questions which I was considering and I'd like to share this post with you if you have an interest in reading it. I'm afraid that it really doesn't answer these questions and, in fact, may raise a few additional ones that some of us might not have considered. Here is the post.




Consuming Books: Reading Vs. Listening


1 <https://davidgoldfield.wordpress.com/2017/05/14/168318/#comments>

This morning I was browsing my Facebook timeline and stumbled on a post from one of my friends who posed a very interesting question. The question has to do with the wording we use to convey how we consume audio books. My friend pointed out that she’s noticing a trend, both with blind and sighted readers, where they will use the verb “listen” instead of “read”, as in “I just finished listening to that book” as opposed to “I just finished reading that book”, as if consuming a book via audio isn’t quite the same as reading it.

First, I’ll provide a bit of background into my own life as an avid reader. I learned how to read Braille when I was around four and how to write it not much later than that. I’ve always found reading Braille to be very easy and I’ve been reading books using Braille for about as long as I can remember. I remember the enjoyment I always felt going to my school library, browsing the many shelves of Braille books and being able to check out one or two books a week, which I always read quickly. Of course, there were many books, known as talking books, which were recorded on cassettes’ as well as on phonograph records. Talking books have been available for blind and visually impaired consumers to borrow since the 1930s, way before audio books became popular with sighted consumers. While I never hesitated to borrow a book on tape from my library, Braille was always my preferred medium and, when given a choice between Braille and audio, Braille was always what I chose.

As I’ve embraced new technologies the way I consume books has also changed. Nearly all of the books which I consume are done so audibly and not in Braille. There are several reasons for this and they don’t apply to all readers who are blind. First, most of the books which I want to read are just not available in Braille. While the National Library Service <http://www.loc.gov/nls> produces many Braille books there are simply more titles available in an audio format. Even then the amount of books produced by NLS, while I greatly appreciate the work that they do, is a drop in the bucket compared to the amount of titles available from other suppliers. Bookshare <http://www.bookshare.org/> , another specialized library for people with print disabilities, offers over half a million books and that number continues to increase. Learning Ally <http://www.learningally.org/> is another specialized library which I’ve used for over 35 years, offers around 80,000 human-narrated titles. Of course, mainstream book suppliers such as the Kindle store offer millions of books, with more constantly being added. These specialized and mainstream suppliers offer a much greater selection of books than what I am able to borrow from my local NLS affiliate.

Some readers will no doubt want to remind me of the fact that we do have Braille display technology, which will work both with my computer as well as with my phone. This is certainly true and a Braille display would certainly allow me to read books from any of these suppliers using the same Braille code that I enjoyed using with books printed on paper. However, there are reasons which, for me, make this an impractical solution.

First, Braille display technology, while readily available for many devices, is often costly. As an example, Freedom Scientific’s most inexpensive Braille display, the Focus 14 Blue, costs $1295.00. At this time spending over a thousand dollars for a Braille display is just not something which I could easily do, considering it’s a device that I don’t truly need. However, even if a Braille display magically dropped onto my desk the fact is that I do a lot of reading either on the train or lying in bed. Reading with a Braille display on a moving train, no matter how portable, is just too awkward. When I’m lying in bed and wanted to read a book it’s just so much easier to do this with a small phone and would prove to be a bit less convenient if I added even a 14-cell display.

Anyway, back to the topic. My friend was pointing out that she has noticed that many people say they’ve listened to a book as opposed to reading it if the book was consumed in an audio medium, such as an audio CD or listening to it with synthetic speech using the Kindle app. However, this also makes me think of how we often use the word “read” when we actually have listened to the book.

This raises some interesting questions. When it comes to books, is it fair to consider it reading regardless of how it’s consumed? There are probably some sighted people who feel that the only way to truly read a book is to do so by processing the printed material visually. Of course, as blind people we know this is certainly not the case. All of us would agree that processing the information with our fingers would just as validly be considered reading as processing the information with our eyes and, in that instance, there is no controversy. However, the wording sometimes changes when we shift from print on a page to either a human narrator or a synthetic voice coming from a pair of speakers or from our portable phones and tablets. If I consumed a book by listening to it with an app such as Voice Dream Reader, am I wrong to say that I’ve read the book? Most blind people would say that I’m not and I would tend to agree with them.

However, let’s say we have an individual who is blind who never learned how to read Braille. There are some valid reasons for why they might not have been taught how to read and write in Braille, such as having neuropathy in their fingers which would prevent them from being able to distinguish the dot patterns. In such a case, this blind individual would only be able to consume books in an audible format. Considering this, would we look at that blind person who didn’t know Braille and conclude, if only to ourselves, that this person was illiterate. We might not say that to their face in the course of normal conversation but do we consider a blind person who doesn’t know Braille to be illiterate? If the answer to that question is yes then can we say that this blind person, not knowing Braille, has “read” a book when it was consumed by listening. If we say no, then why is it acceptable for me to say that I’ve read a book and my hypothetical blind person could not say that, just because I can read Braille and he cannot.

Let’s take this a step further and consider a fully sighted person who, for one reason or another, never learned how to read print. There’s no doubt that we would conclude that this person would be considered illiterate. Saying so is not meant as an insult but, in this case, is indisputable; someone who can’t read is illiterate. My hypothetical blind person might not have the ability to learn Braille and the sighted person could, with proper training, learn how to read print but, until that individual chooses to take classes in how to read, we would all agree that he’s illiterate. Given that fact, would we tend to disagree with the illiterate sighted person if he told us that he “read” a particular book by consuming it in an audible medium? Wouldn’t we think, “No, you didn’t really read that book, you listened to it.” If this is the case, then why is it OK for me, as a blind person who knows Braille, to tell people that I may have read the same book by consuming it in the exact same way but yet fewer people would think of challenging my word choices.

Admittedly, this isn’t the most important topic which should concern us. I don’t think about it all that much and it certainly doesn’t keep me up at night. However, I think these issues are important as it has really forced me to think about what we mean when we speak of what it means to be literate.



As an aside, the person who brought up this topic is one of the proprietors of Speeddots, <http://speeddots.com/> which sells various tactile screen protectors for your Apple iDevice. They also sell various Bluetooth accessories as well as rugged lightning cables with a life-time warranty.

So, how do you feel about this? For you, does listening to an audio book qualify as reading it? I’d love to hear your thoughts in the comments.

David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist
JAWS Certified, 2019

WWW.DavidGoldfield.org <http://WWW.DavidGoldfield.org>
On 3/6/2020 6:21 PM, Ron Canazzi wrote:


Now Brian,

I don't want to personalize this, but you say you're a good
Braille reader now: correct? You say that people who use audio primarily aren't truly literate and you can tell by the way they write e-mails: is that what you're saying? Well let me be your teacher and quote and correct your own mistakes that you have made in your lengthy reply.

<spelling error> aAmen(I guess you are trying to say Amen to that or something similar--note the repetition of the first letter A.)

<grammatical clumsiness> if you don't braille than you are not truly literate. (I guess you mean: if you don't know/use/are competent in, Braille then you are not truly literate.)

<run on sentence> If you doubt this then read emails from blind people who don't know braille there spelling and (There should be a period after the word Braille.)

<spelling error> gramar and punctuation leave alot to be desired. (In this sentence grammar and a lot are misspelled.)

<run on sentence> I have been there myself if I don't read then I to will fall in to trap as well. (There should be a period after the word myself.)

If you truly want to be literate then you just have
<spelling error> toread and not just listen to audio. (there is a run on word toread that should be separated into 'to read.')
Those of us who do prefer braille and would rather read than listen have only audio as the option all to often. For me if I want to stay literate then I have to read braille and as I said in my email to Grumpy Dave I can't
<spelling error> amagine my life with out braille. (I guess you mean 'imagine my life without Braille.)

<wrong use of the word loose> I have had braille most of my life and I would loose independence (I guess you mean lose independence.)

<spelling error> ifI were to not know braille. (You ran the words If and I together.)

Reading braille is active reading but listening to audio or computer speech is just passive reading.

I prefer to <spelling error> activly read but most of the time I can't because it's audio only. (You misspelled actively.)

<spelling errors and a run on sentence> I do rember haveing to cary volumes of braille books acrost campus at the blind school but I never gave it a though it was just what I hav to do it was no problem for me at all. (You misspelled remember, having, across and probably mean the word had when you wrote hav. And I almost forgot, you used the word though instead of thought.) (There should be a period after the word thought.)

The campus at the Michigan school for the blind in Lansing Michigan covered a 4 city block area. I tried college back in 1987-1988 and I could have
<spelling error> donee much better if I had braille. (You misspelled the word done.)

<spelling errors> I had tapes from recording forthe blind but I had issues with the readers with pronouncations. (you ran the words for and the together. You misspelled pronunciation.)

I remember taking test and what I heard during the test sounded nothing like what I heard on the tapes.

If I would have had my books in braille I would have known the correct words and the tests would have made <spelling error> sinse. (You misspelled the word sense.)

<spelling error> If yur going to read on tape then you must be able to speak properly and say your words properly. (You misspelled the word you're--or at least I think that's what you meant by writing the word yur.)

<grammatical oddity> There was the issue of only tape at a time and having to send 2 copies of every book to recording for the blind to be recorded. (I'm not quite sure, but I think you meant 'only one tape at a time.)

<spelling error> Audio is usless if I don't know what you are saying. (You misspelled useless.)

This is why we need braille. Braille readers don't make a big deal of how many volumes a book is it just is.


LONG STORY SHORT: BRIAN, YOU ARE A POOR EXAMPLE OF THE IDEA THAT BRAILLE READERS WRITE COHERENT AND GRAMATICALLY CORRECT E-MAIL MESSAGES.
On 3/6/2020 3:01 PM, brian wrote:


aAmen if you don't braille than you are not truly literate. If you doubt this then read emails from blind people who don't know braille there spelling and gramar and punctuation leave alot to be desired. I have been there myself if I don't read then I to will fall in to trap as well. If you truly want to be literate then you just have toread and not just listen to audio. Those of us who do prefer braille and would rather read than listen have only audio as the option all to often. For me if I want to stay literate then I have to read braille and as I said in my email to Grumpy Dave I can't amagine my life with out braille. I have had braille most of my life and I would loose independence ifI were to not know braille. Reading braille is active reading but listening to audio or computer speech is just passive reading. I prefer to activly read but most of the time I can't because it's audio only. I do rember haveing to cary volumes of braille books acrost campus at the blind school but I never gave it a though it was just what I hav to do it was no problem for me at all. The campus at the Michigan school for the blind in Lansing Michigan covered a 4 city block area. I tried college back in 1987-1988 and I could have donee much better if I had braille. I had tapes from recording forthe blind but I had issues with the readers with pronouncations. I remember taking test and what I heard during the test sounded nothing like what I heard on the tapes. If I would have had my books in braille I would have known the correct words and the tests would have made sinse. If yur going to read on tape then you must be able to speak properly and say your words properly. There was the issue of only tape at a time and having to send 2 copies of every book to recording for the blind to be recorded. Audio is usless if I don't know what you are saying. This is why we need braille. Braille readers don't make a big deal of how many volumes a book is it just is.

Brian Sackrider

On 3/6/2020 7:26 AM, chris judge wrote:


This is true. There is a huge difference between not learning braille if you've lost your site later in life. The unfortunate fact is that even people who are blind since birth are not learning braille at the rate they were when I was a kid 50 years ago. If you are blind since birth and you don't learn braille you miss out on basic literacy. How do you learn proper spelling, grammar, punctuation and such if you don't learn braile. If you have had site you already understand these things so knowing braille isn't as paramount.

-----Original Message----- From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io> mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io On Behalf Of Victor
Sent: March 6, 2020 12:42 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io <mailto:main@techtalk.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

Hello everyone:

I would like to point out that many blind people lose their eyesight later in life and they find it too difficult to learn braille. It is much easier for them to access information by listening to audio. It’s hard enough for them to get over losing their eyesight and live without seeing their loved ones or other things ever again. The last thing they want is to learn a new skill that they may find just too difficult.

After obtaining my iPhone, I attended a users group where are the people taught each other to use iOS devices. While at the group one day, one of the group leaders brought a focus 40 refreshable braille display for everyone to examine. I was the only blind person in the room interested in touching the device because I knew braille and I owned a previous generation of that device. It was not discussed, but I knew that they were not interested because most of them had lost their eyesight later in life. I suspect that they found it much easier to listen to audio than reading braille. Plus, most of them had learned how to access information using their iPhones. I’m sure they found it much easier to whip out their iPhones and listen to their books, podcasts, scan documents and do everything else we can do with our iPhones. I realize that not everyone owns a smart phone because they have not found a way to obtain one. I also realize that not everyone is into these types of gadgets. However, many blind people have discovered how great these gadgets are and how useful they can be in helping them become more independent. For many of us, that is the route we have chosen.

In any case, don’t be too surprised if you meet a blind person who is not interested in learning braille. Don’t be too hard on those people. Maybe they just prefer to do what is easier.

I am so glad that refreshable braille displays exist now. I am also glad that low cost refreshable braille displays are being developed. I definitely don’t miss the days of carrying bulky braille books to and from my classes. I do not miss the days of trying to look up words in the dictionary and dealing with a whole bookshelf of braille books. No thank you! I do not miss my five volume braille New Testament.

If I did not already on a refreshable braille display, I would definitely look into obtaining the orbit braille reader or the braille me.


Anyhow, these are just my rambling opinions.

Victor Sent from my iPhone



On Mar 5, 2020, at 7:40 PM, brian mailto:bsackrider55@... wrote:

 Thanks Grumpy Dave for your explination. I would be willing to pay a few dollars to get braille. I am not saying that I should get for free but not to have the option is my complaint. My local liberary use to provide braille for 10 cents per page. I was also told that if I provided the paper they would braille what I wanted. They required 67 weight paper which I can get at Staples. All to often we are forced to except only audio as the only format that is available. Braille will always be my prefered format because I prefer to read for myself instead of just listen. You say that you hate braille but you can use it well I feel the same about audio. Why do we have to be locked in to just one format? How many people would rather read than listen? Blind or sighted. People who prefer to read than should be commended instead of being kind of bashed for it. If not many blind people request braille than it should be no trouble to provide it. Braille is not that dificult to produce once you have the equipment. my liberary had no trouble all they needed was files in microsoft word and the paper and they were good to go. I use to get my weekly meterials for my church all in grade 2 braille. It was really great to finally be an active participant in the service instead just a pasive listener. To be able to read along with everyone else the verses and hyms and classes lessons is a great feeling you just can't discribe the independence that it givesyou. It's kind of like having access to dvs you can finally know what is going on when there is all of that dead air. I was able to read infront of the church and be active in bible study and even lead the groop all using braille. I do use braille menus when ever possible even if I don't really need it just to let them see that somone is acually using it. Braille has given me a very full life and I don't know whear my life would be with out braille. I feel that every blind person who is able to read braille should learn it. I do understand that there are blind people who have medical conditions that prevents them from being able to read braille. For them they have no choice but to use audio but I do have the choice I just don't like being limited to just audio only and not braille. You hate braille and I hate audio. a good example of when I wish that I had braille instead of a file was when I requested my local newspaper to be accessable. my lions club purchassed a sara reading machine for me there was no braille manual but there was a print manual. I had to go to the help file on the machine and try to find what I wanted. When I called the paper office they asked what files my machine could read. If I had a braille manual I could have just looked it up while on the phone and gave them the answer. I had to call back after I went to the help file and found it. This is very time concuming I can look up somthing much faster in braille than any other format. I am not saying that I can do it as quick as a sighted person can with print but for me it's the fastest way for me to get the job done. When I was a kid I attended the Michigan school the blind in Lansing and we had to learn braille and all of our books were in braille. There was no I don't want to learn it you had to. I will say that I can certainly listen much faster than I can read but when it comes to looking up somthing braille is faster hands down. I have been blind since birth and thats all I ever knew was braille. It's like the sighted grew up with print. I wanted to learn the opticon at the rehab center but they would not let me because they said that I was not fast enough. I felt that I was learning and making progress and I should had the right to continue but they said no. If somone really wants to learn a new skil then they should beallowed to do so. If I am determind to learn somthing that then I will even though it might take more time then the teacher would like. I guess that modavation means nothing. If somone reallly wants to learn braille so what ifit takes several month to do so they should not be told no you can't continue. If companies had the equipment to produce braille they could charge me for the cost of the paper to get braille manuals or catalogs.



On 3/5/2020 9:26 PM, Dave wrote:
Hello Brian,


I have nothing against Braille other than the hassle it is to create
it, such as a Manual in Braille.


I've been blind for a long time now, and there were many times when I
would have Kissed the Feet of anyone who gave me a manual in Audio
format. many times have I had to just Wing it, learning by Guess and
by Golly. Once Computers became a Tool for the Blind, Guessing was
not always the best thing to do, as guessing wrong could ruin your
day in a Big way. Still can.


but, Brian, I have no Beef with Braille. To produce it is just not an
easy task. And I would guess that most manufacturers of items for
the blind, may not want to hire another Staff member to do nothing
but print out Manuals in Braille.


Yes, it all sounds good, until the costs of doing such a thing is
considered.


These days, I do expect a Manual at least in a PDF format, if not an
Audio file. And if I own my own Braille Printer, I can then print
out the PDF file.


Although, I can't afford one of those printers, so I do without.


However, I could run the Audio file through an Audio to Text
converter, and then print that file out in Braille.


When I get nothing but an On Line Manual, where I need to go On Line
to read the thing. I am Thankful for at least that much, but I
always look to see if I can just download the manual so I don't need
to be going On Line so much.


Call it my personal Taste.


I would think most who are Blind have learned over and over again to
look for Work Arounds for doing many things in Life.


You like Braille, and while I do use it, I Hate it. So a Braille
Manual would be a waste of resources to send me one.


You Love it, and can use it well. So, when the Company doesn't send
a manual in Braille, but has sent you one in PDF, or even Audio, if
you want a manual in Braille, the Work around is to convert that Audio or
PDF file into Braille. And if you are like me, and can't afford a
Braille Printer, there are Services that will take your Manual file
and make you a manual in Braille.


it may cost you a few dollars, which again is all part of the Life of
someone who is Blind. In the past, I have hired Readers to read
Manuals on Tape. Paid them $10 for every hour of Recorded material.


I've paid people to read my Mail. This was before smart Phones had
built in Cameras and OCR programs. I paid them $10 an hour too. this
was back in the 1980's and 90's.


I haven't had to hire anyone for about 20 years now


And Dare I bring up the Quality of Manuals? So often, regardless of
what Format it comes in, the information in the thing is totally Nuts!
It doesn't make Sense, and you can't tell if it is a Translation of
something in Chinese to English, or from Chinese to Spanish and then
Russian, and then to English etc.


And some manuals that come in English are so poorly written, lack
helpful information and seem to be missing a great deal of actual
instructional information and are next to useless in any format.


Grumpy Dave























locked Re: warning if you doing business

Gene
 

I don't know who, if anyone on list might be competent to deal with some of these problems.  I know you have a bad view of blindness advocacy organizations.  However, much of what you said you wanted to learn is taught at NFB centers where people go through a rigorous program of learning skills to function well as blind people and also discuss and participate in activities to improve their attitudes about blindness and themselves as blind people. 
 
If you contacted a Federation chapter or the national organization, you could request information. 
 Also, I don't know what the ACB may offer.  I'm discussing what I know.  Others mayhave other suggestions.  I hope you can find out about good resources and that they will help you learn things you wanted to know but weren't taught.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: brian
Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2020 5:22 PM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

    I am glad that some of you got to learn the opaton I was not so
lucky.  It would be like reading braille in that you are reading how
words are spelled.  When I was at the rehab center I wanted to learn it
but I was told that I was not learning fast enough.  This has been my
experience even in school that if I did want to learn a new skill I was
told no.  Teachers don't want to teach.  When somone does want to learn
but teachers refuse to them thats a big problem.  I have always that I
did need to learn new skills becausing the ways that they were teaching
me did not work.  When it came to learning math they only tought the
abacus and that is not real math.  my teacher told that it does not
teach math concepts and it is not the way that math is done by every
else.  He told me that sighted peopleadd from right to left but it is
left to right on the abacus.  The only thing that the blind school tough
well was braille.  At the rehab center I wanted to learn how to use the
gas stove and eletronic mobility devices but I was told no.  I also told
them that I need to learn how to travel in areas with out sidewalks
because that was my town was like at the time.  I have always that I
have had alot of deficenties in my education and in other skills but i
always got told no you can't learn that.  Thats the story of my life
teachers that don't care to teach me the things that I need to know. 
They didn't care if I learned anything or not.  We don't all learn the
same but they just can't understand that.  What works for you may not
work for me.  I don't understand why teachers don't want to teach somone
who does want to learn.  It would be one thing if they did try to teach
me and I did not want to learn but that was not the case.  Both the
blind school and the rehab center were a big joke a total waist of my
time I did not learn very much as I should have.  I think that reason
that I am so highly opinionated about braille is that was the whole
focus of blind school.  We had to read and write in braille and
everything that we needed to read was in braille.  We had to read
braille and not listen to audio books it was all braille and noaudio at
all.  I atended the Michigan school from age 5 to age 21 and I have been
totally blind from birth.  All of our text books were inbraille as well
as books for book reports.  They could be about almost anything except
romance books.  We were strongly encouraged to read for pleasure not
just for our school work.  They toughtto highly braille over audio.  We
were encouraged to read braille and not just listen to tapes.  If you
were totally blind then braille was what you had to read not learning it
was not an option. If you did not want to do your work in school then
you would have to stay after school until you did even if itmeant
missing your next meal.  The importance of braille was always stressed
and that is so neccessary for your independence.  You can read whear and
when ever you want.  You can write down what ever you wantto or need to
read later.  You can play games with sighted people read just for fun
and school or work.  I have said how braille let me be more active in
church with out braille I would not have had that.  I will never
understand how blind people can say that they don't want to learn
braille. Perhaps it's because they did not atend a blind school like I
did for most of my life.  Braille has given me a much fuller life than I
would have ever had with out it.  I would never want to have audio as my
only option and all of this high tenology can and does fail and it's
often very expensive.  If you lived in a totaly braille world for most
of  your life but it's an almost brailleless world than you might
understand whear I am coming from.  We now live in an almost brailleless
world but if I had my choice we would have just as much braille as the
sighted have had print.  This would be the ideal world for me this would
be just perfect.  There would be only braille and no other formats. 
There would be no need for any audio or computer speech because
everything would be in braille just like at school.  Braille will always
be the very best thing that has ever been invented for the blind nothing
elsewill ever compear to  it or be as good as it is.  Nothing will or
can ever replace paper braille not now and not ever.  No audio or any
technology we don't need any of it we need only braille paper only.  The
only thing that wouldeven come close would be if we could all have
optacons and have teachers that would teach us how to read print that
would be exceptabl.  If we had optacons we could read anything that is
not in braille.  We would still be reading with our fingers and not with
our ears. The optacon would be a close second to braille.  as you know
by now I will always prefer toread with my fingers and not my ears. I
have to listen rather than read because thats all there is that might be
your preferance but it's not mine. We should all have the right to the
format of our choice and not be forced to one thats not.

Brian Sackrider

On 3/7/2020 4:00 PM, Evan Reese wrote:
> I had forgotten about the Optacon in this discussion. I am fortunate
> enough to be able to have two of them, so I won't have to go without
> if I should have to send one back to Richard Oehm for repair. I hope
> he lives forever! <smile>
> I use one of mine every day for something.
> So I read print via touch. I don't think anyone would say that I'm not
> reading when I use an Optacon to find out what's on a print page just
> because I'm using a different sense than sight.
> Conversely, I knew teachers at the blind school I went to who read
> braille with their eyes. I don't think anyone would say they weren't
> reading either, even though braille is a different set of symbols from
> print, even more so in the case of contracted braille.
> So using my own statements to argue that I am not really reading
> braille is a misinterpretation or misunderstanding of what I actually
> said.
> Evan
> -----Original Message----- From: Carolyn Arnold
> Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2020 3:20 PM
> To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business
>
> When I was a medical secretary in a surgical pathology office, I used
> my Optacon for some dictionaries, code and drug books, patient name
> spelling - a lot of things. But, I had some Braille reference books
> and my slate and stylus for some note taking and personal filing. One
> of the doctors said that I worked, "in two languages."
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: main@TechTalk.groups.io [mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io] On
> Behalf Of Ron Canazzi
> Sent: Saturday, March 7, 2020 12:38 AM
> To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business
>
> Hi Evan,
>
> Well this analysis while tightly argued, is like a biblical literalist
> that represents a false dialectic by only examining terminologies and
> factoids that support their own belief structure.
>
> One falsehood of your argument is in semantics Since the perception of
> reading has been from time immemorial the use of one's eyes and
> printed material to intake facts derived by, thought of and/or written
> down by others. If so, then how is it that Braille can be thought of
> as the exact equivalent of print when it in fact is not.  Not only is
> it not the same as a standard 26 character alphabet, but it also uses
> a different sense--that of the sense of touch to extract the ideas
> from the materials.
>
> In a very strict sense of the syntactical world and using at least in
> part, your own rigid interpretation of 'reading' actually is, then you
> as a Braille reader really aren't reading in the classic sense of the
> word either.
>
> That's why I believe that words serve only a function of communicating
> basic ideas and that there must be flexibility, discourse,
> investigation and relatively speaking a scientific type analysis of
> each and every issue for true knowledge to be obtained.
>
> Once again, if the importance of what is known as reading is that we
> communicate ideas, then the mechanics as to what is defined as reading
> should be secondary to how the ideas are being transferred.
>
>
> On 3/6/2020 9:06 PM, Evan Reese wrote:
>
>
> Well, I would say that listening to an audio book is not the same as
> reading it, either in braille or print.
> To illustrate, if I tell you a story, would you say that you had read
> it? No. Now, what if I write down the story and read it to you, either
> in person or on the phone. Would you say that you had read it? I don’t
> think so.
> Now, suppose I make a recording of me reading the story and send it to
> you. Would you say that you had read it? The only difference is that,
> instead of reading it to you live, I’m reading it on tape, as we used
> to say.
> So no, listening to someone read a book is not the same thing as
> reading it oneself. You may still get the information, but you didn’t
> read it if you listened to someone else read it.
> I don’t think a synthetic voice makes any difference. True, it doesn’t
> know what it’s saying, but you still have an intermediary between
> yourself and the actual text, you’re still listening to (in this
> case), a computer translate the actual text into words. So, even
> though it doesn’t comprehend what it is translating, it is still
> reading to you in the strictest sense. You are not reading when using
> a synthetic voice.
> But language changes, definitions change over time. It may happen soon
> that people will say that they are actually reading when they are
> listening to a voice, any voice, whether human or synthetic, read to
> them. Many people already say that, so I think we’re on the way. I
> don’t care all that much. I’ve done it myself, said that I read a book
> when I actually listened to someone else read it. I don’t make a big
> deal out of it. But you asked for thoughts, and that’s what I actually
> believe, even if I speak off-handedly about reading audio books.
> Evan
>
> From: David Goldfield <mailto:david.goldfield@...>
> Sent: Friday, March 06, 2020 6:58 PM
> To: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io>
> Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business
>
>
> I'd like to address this topic of literacy when talking about whether
> or not a person is able or not able to read Braille. I wrote a blog
> post about this a while ago as these were questions which I was
> considering and I'd like to share this post with you if you have an
> interest in reading it. I'm afraid that it really doesn't answer these
> questions and, in fact, may raise a few additional ones that some of
> us might not have considered. Here is the post.
>
>
>
>
> Consuming Books: Reading Vs. Listening
>
>
> 1 <https://davidgoldfield.wordpress.com/2017/05/14/168318/#comments>
>
> This morning I was browsing my Facebook timeline and stumbled on a
> post from one of my friends who posed a very interesting question. The
> question has to do with the wording we use to convey how we consume
> audio books. My friend pointed out that she’s noticing a trend, both
> with blind and sighted readers, where they will use the verb “listen”
> instead of “read”, as in “I just finished listening to that book” as
> opposed to “I just finished reading that book”, as if consuming a book
> via audio isn’t quite the same as reading it.
>
> First, I’ll provide a bit of background into my own life as an avid
> reader. I learned how to read Braille when I was around four and how
> to write it not much later than that. I’ve always found reading
> Braille to be very easy and I’ve been reading books using Braille for
> about as long as I can remember. I remember the enjoyment I always
> felt going to my school library, browsing the many shelves of Braille
> books and being able to check out one or two books a week, which I
> always read quickly. Of course, there were many books, known as
> talking books, which were recorded on cassettes’ as well as on
> phonograph records. Talking books have been available for blind and
> visually impaired consumers to borrow since the 1930s, way before
> audio books became popular with sighted consumers. While I never
> hesitated to borrow a book on tape from my library, Braille was always
> my preferred medium and, when given a choice between Braille and
> audio, Braille was always what I chose.
>
> As I’ve embraced new technologies the way I consume books has also
> changed. Nearly all of the books which I consume are done so audibly
> and not in Braille. There are several reasons for this and they don’t
> apply to all readers who are blind. First, most of the books which I
> want to read are just not available in Braille. While the National
> Library Service <http://www.loc.gov/nls> produces many Braille books
> there are simply more titles available in an audio format. Even then
> the amount of books produced by NLS, while I greatly appreciate the
> work that they do, is a drop in the bucket compared to the amount of
> titles available from other suppliers. Bookshare
> <http://www.bookshare.org/> , another specialized library for people
> with print disabilities, offers over half a million books and that
> number continues to increase. Learning Ally
> <http://www.learningally.org/> is another specialized library which
> I’ve used for over 35 years, offers around 80,000 human-narrated
> titles. Of course, mainstream book suppliers such as the Kindle store
> offer millions of books, with more constantly being added. These
> specialized and mainstream suppliers offer a much greater selection of
> books than what I am able to borrow from my local NLS affiliate.
>
> Some readers will no doubt want to remind me of the fact that we do
> have Braille display technology, which will work both with my computer
> as well as with my phone. This is certainly true and a Braille display
> would certainly allow me to read books from any of these suppliers
> using the same Braille code that I enjoyed using with books printed on
> paper. However, there are reasons which, for me, make this an
> impractical solution.
>
> First, Braille display technology, while readily available for many
> devices, is often costly. As an example, Freedom Scientific’s most
> inexpensive Braille display, the Focus 14 Blue, costs $1295.00. At
> this time spending over a thousand dollars for a Braille display is
> just not something which I could easily do, considering it’s a device
> that I don’t truly need. However, even if a Braille display magically
> dropped onto my desk the fact is that I do a lot of reading either on
> the train or lying in bed. Reading with a Braille display on a moving
> train, no matter how portable, is just too awkward. When I’m lying in
> bed and wanted to read a book it’s just so much easier to do this with
> a small phone and would prove to be a bit less convenient if I added
> even a 14-cell display.
>
> Anyway, back to the topic. My friend was pointing out that she has
> noticed that many people say they’ve listened to a book as opposed to
> reading it if the book was consumed in an audio medium, such as an
> audio CD or listening to it with synthetic speech using the Kindle
> app. However, this also makes me think of how we often use the word
> “read” when we actually have listened to the book.
>
> This raises some interesting questions. When it comes to books, is it
> fair to consider it reading regardless of how it’s consumed? There are
> probably some sighted people who feel that the only way to truly read
> a book is to do so by processing the printed material visually. Of
> course, as blind people we know this is certainly not the case. All of
> us would agree that processing the information with our fingers would
> just as validly be considered reading as processing the information
> with our eyes and, in that instance, there is no controversy. However,
> the wording sometimes changes when we shift from print on a page to
> either a human narrator or a synthetic voice coming from a pair of
> speakers or from our portable phones and tablets. If I consumed a book
> by listening to it with an app such as Voice Dream Reader, am I wrong
> to say that I’ve read the book? Most blind people would say that I’m
> not and I would tend to agree with them.
>
> However, let’s say we have an individual who is blind who never
> learned how to read Braille. There are some valid reasons for why they
> might not have been taught how to read and write in Braille, such as
> having neuropathy in their fingers which would prevent them from being
> able to distinguish the dot patterns. In such a case, this blind
> individual would only be able to consume books in an audible format.
> Considering this, would we look at that blind person who didn’t know
> Braille and conclude, if only to ourselves, that this person was
> illiterate. We might not say that to their face in the course of
> normal conversation but do we consider a blind person who doesn’t know
> Braille to be illiterate? If the answer to that question is yes then
> can we say that this blind person, not knowing Braille, has “read” a
> book when it was consumed by listening. If we say no, then why is it
> acceptable for me to say that I’ve read a book and my hypothetical
> blind person could not say that, just because I can read Braille and
> he cannot.
>
> Let’s take this a step further and consider a fully sighted person
> who, for one reason or another, never learned how to read print.
> There’s no doubt that we would conclude that this person would be
> considered illiterate. Saying so is not meant as an insult but, in
> this case, is indisputable; someone who can’t read is illiterate. My
> hypothetical blind person might not have the ability to learn Braille
> and the sighted person could, with proper training, learn how to read
> print but, until that individual chooses to take classes in how to
> read, we would all agree that he’s illiterate. Given that fact, would
> we tend to disagree with the illiterate sighted person if he told us
> that he “read” a particular book by consuming it in an audible medium?
> Wouldn’t we think, “No, you didn’t really read that book, you listened
> to it.” If this is the case, then why is it OK for me, as a blind
> person who knows Braille, to tell people that I may have read the same
> book by consuming it in the exact same way but yet fewer people would
> think of challenging my word choices.
>
> Admittedly, this isn’t the most important topic which should concern
> us. I don’t think about it all that much and it certainly doesn’t keep
> me up at night. However, I think these issues are important as it has
> really forced me to think about what we mean when we speak of what it
> means to be literate.
>
>
>
> As an aside, the person who brought up this topic is one of the
> proprietors of Speeddots,  <http://speeddots.com/> which sells various
> tactile screen protectors for your Apple iDevice. They also sell
> various Bluetooth accessories as well as rugged lightning cables with
> a life-time warranty.
>
> So, how do you feel about this? For you, does listening to an audio
> book qualify as reading it? I’d love to hear your thoughts in the
> comments.
>
> David Goldfield,
> Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist
> JAWS Certified, 2019
>
> WWW.DavidGoldfield.org <http://WWW.DavidGoldfield.org>
> On 3/6/2020 6:21 PM, Ron Canazzi wrote:
>
>
> Now Brian,
>
> I don't want to personalize this, but you say you're a good
> Braille reader now: correct?  You say that people who use audio
> primarily aren't truly literate and you can tell by the way they write
> e-mails: is that what you're saying?  Well let me be your teacher and
> quote and correct your own mistakes that you have made in your lengthy
> reply.
>
> <spelling error>    aAmen(I guess you are trying to say Amen to that
> or something similar--note the repetition of the first letter A.)
>
> <grammatical clumsiness> if you don't braille than you are not truly
> literate. (I guess you mean: if you don't know/use/are competent in,
> Braille then you are not truly literate.)
>
> <run on sentence> If you doubt this then read emails from blind people
> who don't know braille there spelling and (There should be a period
> after the word Braille.)
>
> <spelling error> gramar and punctuation leave alot to be desired.  (In
> this sentence grammar and a lot are misspelled.)
>
> <run on sentence> I have been there myself if I don't read then I to
> will fall in to trap as well.  (There should be a period after the
> word myself.)
>
> If you truly want to be literate then you just have
> <spelling error> toread and not just listen to audio. (there is a run
> on word toread that should be separated into 'to read.')
> Those of us who  do prefer braille and would rather read than listen
> have only audio as the option all to often. For me if I want to stay
> literate then I have to read braille and as I said in my email to
> Grumpy Dave I can't
> <spelling error> amagine my life with out braille.  (I guess you mean
> 'imagine my life without Braille.)
>
> <wrong use of the word loose> I have had braille most of my life and I
> would loose independence (I guess you mean lose independence.)
>
> <spelling error> ifI were to not know braille.   (You ran the words If
> and I together.)
>
> Reading braille is active reading but listening to audio or computer
> speech is just passive reading.
>
> I prefer to <spelling error> activly read but most of the time I can't
> because it's audio only.  (You misspelled actively.)
>
> <spelling errors and a run on sentence> I do rember haveing to cary
> volumes of braille books acrost campus at the blind school but I never
> gave it a though it was just what I hav to do it was no problem for me
> at all.   (You misspelled remember, having, across and probably mean
> the word had when you wrote hav. And I almost forgot, you used the
> word though instead of thought.) (There should be a period after the
> word thought.)
>
> The campus at the Michigan school for the blind in Lansing Michigan
> covered a 4 city block area.  I tried college back in 1987-1988 and I
> could have
> <spelling error> donee much better if I had braille.  (You misspelled
> the word done.)
>
> <spelling errors> I had tapes from recording forthe blind but I had
> issues with the readers with pronouncations.   (you ran the words for
> and the together.  You misspelled pronunciation.)
>
> I remember taking test and what I heard during the test sounded
> nothing like what I heard on the tapes.
>
> If I would have had my books in braille I would have known the correct
> words and the tests would have made <spelling error> sinse.  (You
> misspelled the word sense.)
>
> <spelling error> If yur going to read on tape then you must be able to
> speak properly and say your words properly.   (You misspelled the word
> you're--or at least I think that's what you meant by writing the word
> yur.)
>
> <grammatical oddity> There was the issue of only tape at a time and
> having to send 2 copies of every book to recording for the blind to be
> recorded. (I'm not quite sure, but I think you meant 'only one tape at
> a time.)
>
> <spelling error> Audio is usless if I don't know what you are saying.
> (You misspelled useless.)
>
> This is why we need braille.  Braille readers don't make a big deal of
> how many volumes a book is it just is.
>
>
> LONG STORY SHORT: BRIAN, YOU ARE A POOR EXAMPLE OF THE IDEA THAT
> BRAILLE READERS WRITE COHERENT AND GRAMATICALLY CORRECT E-MAIL MESSAGES.
> On 3/6/2020 3:01 PM, brian wrote:
>
>
> aAmen if you don't braille than you are not truly literate. If you
> doubt this then read emails from blind people who don't know braille
> there spelling and gramar and punctuation leave alot to be desired.  I
> have been there myself if I don't read then I to will fall in to trap
> as well.  If you truly want to be literate then you just have toread
> and not just listen to audio.  Those of us who  do prefer braille and
> would rather read than listen have only audio as the option all to
> often. For me if I want to stay literate then I have to read braille
> and as I said in my email to Grumpy Dave I can't amagine my life with
> out braille.  I have had braille most of my life and I would loose
> independence ifI were to not know braille. Reading braille is active
> reading but listening to audio or computer speech is just passive
> reading.  I prefer to activly read but most of the time I can't
> because it's audio only.  I do rember haveing to cary volumes of
> braille books acrost campus at the blind school but I never gave it a
> though it was just what I hav to do it was no problem for me at all. 
> The campus at the Michigan school for the blind in Lansing Michigan
> covered a 4 city block area.  I tried college back in 1987-1988 and I
> could have donee much better if I had braille.  I had tapes from
> recording forthe blind but I had issues with the readers with
> pronouncations.  I remember taking test and what I heard during the
> test sounded nothing like what I heard on the tapes.  If I would have
> had my books in braille I would have known the correct words and the
> tests would have made sinse.  If yur going to read on tape then you
> must be able to speak properly and say your words properly.  There was
> the issue of only tape at a time and having to send 2 copies of every
> book to recording for the blind to be recorded.  Audio is usless if I
> don't know what you are saying. This is why we need braille.  Braille
> readers don't make a big deal of how many volumes a book is it just is.
>
> Brian Sackrider
>
> On 3/6/2020 7:26 AM, chris judge wrote:
>
>
> This is true. There is a huge difference between not learning braille
> if you've lost your site later in life. The unfortunate fact is that
> even people who are blind since birth are not learning braille at the
> rate they were when I was a kid 50 years ago. If you are blind since
> birth and you don't learn braille you miss out on basic literacy. How
> do you learn proper spelling, grammar, punctuation and such if you
> don't learn braile. If you have had site you already understand these
> things so knowing braille isn't as paramount.
>
> -----Original Message----- From: main@TechTalk.groups.io
> <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io> mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io On
> Behalf Of Victor
> Sent: March 6, 2020 12:42 AM
> To: main@techtalk.groups.io <mailto:main@techtalk.groups.io>
> Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business
>
> Hello everyone:
>
> I would like to point out that many blind people lose their eyesight
> later in life and they find it too difficult to learn braille. It is
> much easier for them to access information by listening to audio. It’s
> hard enough for them to get over losing their eyesight and live
> without seeing their loved ones or other things ever again. The last
> thing they want is to learn a new skill that they may find just too
> difficult.
>
> After obtaining my iPhone, I attended a users group where are the
> people taught each other to use iOS devices. While at the group one
> day, one of the group leaders brought a focus 40 refreshable braille
> display for everyone to examine. I was the only blind person in the
> room interested in touching the device because I knew braille and I
> owned a previous generation of that device. It was not discussed, but
> I knew that they were not interested because most of them had lost
> their eyesight later in life. I suspect that they found it much easier
> to listen to audio than reading braille. Plus, most of them had
> learned how to access information using their iPhones. I’m sure they
> found it much easier to whip out their iPhones and listen to their
> books, podcasts, scan documents and do everything else we can do with
> our iPhones. I realize that not everyone owns a smart phone because
> they have not found a way to obtain one. I also realize that not
> everyone is into these types of gadgets. However, many blind people
> have discovered how great these gadgets are and how useful they can be
> in helping them become more independent. For many of us, that is the
> route we have chosen.
>
> In any case, don’t be too surprised if you meet a blind person who is
> not interested in learning braille. Don’t be too hard on those people.
> Maybe they just prefer to do what is easier.
>
> I am so glad that refreshable braille displays exist now. I am also
> glad that low cost refreshable braille displays are being developed. I
> definitely don’t miss the days of carrying bulky braille books to and
> from my classes. I do not miss the days of trying to look up words in
> the dictionary and dealing with a whole bookshelf of braille books. No
> thank you! I do not miss my five volume braille New Testament.
>
> If I did not already on a refreshable braille display, I would
> definitely look into obtaining the orbit braille reader or the braille
> me.
>
>
> Anyhow, these are just my rambling opinions.
>
> Victor Sent from my iPhone
>
>
>
> On Mar 5, 2020, at 7:40 PM, brian mailto:bsackrider55@... wrote:
>
>     Thanks Grumpy Dave for your explination.  I would be willing to
> pay a few dollars to get braille. I am not saying that I should get
> for free but not to have the option is my complaint.  My local
> liberary use to provide braille for 10 cents per page.   I was also
> told that if I provided the paper they would braille what I wanted. 
> They required 67 weight paper which I can get at Staples.  All to
> often we are forced to except only audio as the only format that is
> available. Braille will always be my prefered format because I prefer
> to read for myself instead of just listen.  You say that you hate
> braille but you can use it well I feel the same about audio. Why do we
> have to be locked in to just one format?  How many people would rather
> read than listen?  Blind or sighted. People who prefer to read than
> should be commended instead of being kind of bashed for it.  If not
> many blind people request braille than it should be no trouble to
> provide it. Braille is not that dificult to produce once you have the
> equipment.  my liberary had no trouble all they needed was files in
> microsoft word and the paper and they were good to go.  I use to get
> my weekly meterials for my church all in grade 2 braille. It was
> really great to finally be an active participant in the service
> instead just a pasive listener.  To be able to read along with
> everyone else the verses and hyms and classes lessons is a great
> feeling you just can't discribe the independence that it givesyou. 
> It's kind of like having access to dvs you can finally know what is
> going on when there is all of that dead air.  I was able to read
> infront of the church and be active in bible study and even lead the
> groop all using braille.  I do use braille menus when ever possible
> even if I don't really need it just to let them see that somone is
> acually using it.  Braille has given me a very full life and I don't
> know whear my life would be with out braille.  I feel that every blind
> person who is able to read braille should learn it.  I do understand
> that there are blind people who have medical conditions that prevents
> them from being able to read braille.  For them they have no choice
> but to use audio but I do have the choice I just don't like being
> limited to just audio only and not braille.  You hate braille and I
> hate audio.  a good example of when I wish that I had braille instead
> of a file was when I requested my local newspaper to be accessable. 
> my lions club purchassed a sara reading machine for me there was no
> braille manual but there was a print manual.  I had to go to the help
> file on the machine and try to find what I wanted. When I called the
> paper office they asked what files my machine could read. If I had a
> braille manual I could have just looked it up while on the phone and
> gave them the answer.  I had to call back after I went to the help
> file and found it.  This is very time concuming I can look up somthing
> much faster in braille than any other format.  I am not saying that I
> can do it as quick as a sighted person can with print but for me it's
> the fastest way for me to get the job done.  When I was a kid I
> attended the Michigan school the blind in Lansing and we had to learn
> braille and all of our books were in braille.  There was no I don't
> want to learn it you had to.  I will say that I can certainly listen
> much faster than I can read but when it comes to looking up somthing
> braille is faster hands down.  I have been blind since birth and thats
> all I ever knew was braille. It's like the sighted grew up with
> print.  I wanted to learn the opticon at the rehab center but they
> would not let me because they said that I was not fast enough.  I felt
> that I was learning and making progress and I should had the right to
> continue but they said no. If somone really wants to learn a new skil
> then they should beallowed to do so.  If I am determind to learn
> somthing that then I will even though it might take more time then the
> teacher would like.  I guess that modavation means nothing.  If somone
> reallly wants to learn braille so what ifit takes several month to do
> so they should not be told no you can't continue.  If companies had
> the equipment to produce braille they could charge me for the cost of
> the paper to get braille manuals or catalogs.
>
>
>
> On 3/5/2020 9:26 PM, Dave wrote:
> Hello Brian,
>
>
> I have nothing against Braille other than the hassle it is to create
> it, such as a Manual in Braille.
>
>
> I've been blind for a long time now, and there were many times when I
> would have Kissed the Feet of anyone who gave me a manual in Audio
> format.  many times have I had to just Wing it, learning by Guess and
> by Golly.  Once Computers became a Tool for the Blind, Guessing was
> not always the best thing to do, as guessing wrong could ruin your
> day in a Big way.  Still can.
>
>
> but, Brian, I have no Beef with Braille.   To produce it is just not an
> easy task.  And I would guess that most manufacturers of items for
> the blind, may not want to hire another Staff member to do nothing
> but print out Manuals in Braille.
>
>
> Yes, it all sounds good, until the costs of doing such a thing is
> considered.
>
>
> These days, I do expect a Manual at least in a PDF format, if not an
> Audio file.  And if I own my own Braille Printer, I can then print
> out the PDF file.
>
>
> Although, I can't afford one of those printers, so I do without.
>
>
> However,  I could run the Audio file through an Audio to Text
> converter, and then print that file out in Braille.
>
>
> When I get nothing but an On Line Manual, where I need to go On Line
> to read the thing.  I am Thankful for at least that much, but I
> always look to see if I can just download the manual so I don't need
> to be going On Line so much.
>
>
> Call it my personal Taste.
>
>
> I would think most who are Blind have learned over and over again to
> look for Work Arounds for doing many things in Life.
>
>
> You like Braille, and while I do use it, I Hate it.  So a Braille
> Manual would be a waste of resources to send me one.
>
>
> You Love it, and can use it well.  So, when the Company doesn't send
> a manual in Braille, but has sent you one in PDF, or even Audio, if
> you want a manual in Braille, the Work around is to convert that Audio or
> PDF file into Braille.   And if you are like me, and can't afford a
> Braille Printer, there are Services that will take your Manual file
> and make you a manual in Braille.
>
>
> it may cost you a few dollars, which again is all part of the Life of
> someone who is Blind.  In the past, I have hired Readers to read
> Manuals on Tape.  Paid them $10 for every hour of Recorded material.
>
>
> I've paid people to read my Mail.  This was before smart Phones had
> built in Cameras and OCR programs.   I paid them $10 an hour too. this
> was back in the 1980's and 90's.
>
>
> I haven't had to hire anyone for about 20 years now
>
>
> And Dare I bring up the Quality of Manuals?  So often, regardless of
> what Format it comes in, the information in the thing is totally Nuts!
> It doesn't make Sense, and you can't tell if it is a Translation of
> something in Chinese to English, or from Chinese to Spanish and then
> Russian, and then to English etc.
>
>
> And some manuals that come in English  are so poorly written, lack
> helpful information and seem to be missing a great deal of actual
> instructional information and are next to useless in any format.
>
>
> Grumpy Dave
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>



Re: spell checker

Gene
 

If so, then a discussion in using the Thunderbird spell checker might be a good idea.  I don't use Thunderbird, but I would think the spell checker would be similar to those I've used in other programs.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: Mike B
Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2020 4:58 PM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] spell checker

According to his email properties he's using Thunderbird, but he should probably verify this with the version as well.

Take care.  Mike.  Sent from my iBarstool.  Go dodgers!
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2020 2:41 PM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] spell checker

What e-mail program are you using or are you using a webmail interface?
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: brian
Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2020 12:53 PM
Subject: [TechTalk] spell checker

            People on this list and on other lists have told me to use a spell checker and thats all they say.  They did not give me any options or tell me whear to get oneor how to use one.  I don't have microsoft office.  What is a good spell checker that works with nvda?  Just telling me what I should do but not providing with out anyhelp information does me no good and is not helping me at all.  I have not taken any computer classes what I know I have learned on my own.  It seems that people are all to willing to tell me what I should do but don't give any helpful sugestions.  I know that I do need help and I do want to make mymessages more readable.  It's not that I don't care I just don't know what to do about the problem.  It is true that if I write to fast than I will make lots of mistakes.  The same is true if I write in braille.  I do get very slopy if I write to fast.

Brian Sackrider 

On 3/7/2020 12:13 PM, Gene wrote:
You are making unsupported statements.  How do you know Brian has learning differences?  How do you know he was coasted through school?  I'll offer an alternative explanation.  I'm not saying either are correct nor am I saying which one may or may not account for observed phenomena better.  But how do you know that some or many of these errors are not the result of someone feeling strongly about something and rushing to get the message written as quickly as possible?  If Brian is typing far above the speed at which he types more accurately, that may result in some of what is observed.  And, since I've seen messages from Brian that don't have all these mistakes, I'll consider my theory to be a possibly better explanation, since I don't know Brian's background and I think it is absurd to infer some sort of learning differences based on a few e-mails. 
 
But none of this, learning differences, spelling difficulties, a rush to type as quickly as you can to get your message out as fast as possible, none of these possibilities precludes the use of a spell checker. 
 
To this point, I have been writing as a list member.  I am now writing as the list owner.
 
This discussion has been very interesting and we know more about each other than we did, thus helping build community on the list.  But if the discussion becomes mostly one of how messages are written, I'll close it.  I realize that you and a few others may want to respond to what I and others have said but this part of the discussion shouldn't continue for more than a few more messages. 
 
Now, I'm writing as a list member again.
 
Brian, I would think it may be uncomfortable seeing your writing critiqued.  But keep these things in mind and you may find the experience useful:
My view is that if I expect someone to spend the time reading my messages and thinking about them, I have a certain responsibility to make them reasonably readable.  In your case, many people probably have to stop to review phrases where words are written together without spaces.  Because I've seen messages from you that are much better written, it appears to me that if you get emotional about a subject, you rush to write what you want as quickly as you can.  the result is errors that make your messages difficult to read, such as words written together with no spaces. 
 
As to spelling, in general I would just let that go.  But when you call a whole class of people illiterate, then don't use a spellchecker and have misspelled wordafter misspelled word, then, like it or not, you become part of the discussion.  Like it or not, literacy is partly sending a message without perhaps thirty or forty or more misspelled words.  And nothing precludes you from using a spellchecker.  As I said, in general I wouldn't comment on spelling, but it is inevitable that at least a few people will when you accuse people of being illiterate and don't use a spell checker, resulting in a great many misspellings.  It's as though I attended a cooking contest, made a speech before the event in which I said that with frozen dinners, no one knows how to cook anymore, then I burned the soup and my main dish. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2020 6:27 AM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

Hi all,

I could write a long rant about how I am treated when I correct
people's spelling publicly.  I have been called harsh and arrogant and
more.  I won't do that because it would be counter-productive.  I will
say, however, that taking advantage of someone who has made a public
mistake is, I feel, cruel.  it demeans those who perpetuate such crimes.

If you wish to correct Brian's writing, you might do so privately,
thereby giving him the dignity he deserves.  It isn't his fault that he
was coasted through school.  It isn't his fault that he may not have a
braille display or possess hard copy braille so that he could improve
his writing.

If you want to help, take it off-list!  Truly be of service and not
part of the problem.

Ann P.


Original message:
> Now Brian,

> I don't want to personalize this, but you say you're a good
> Braille reader now: correct?  You say that people who use audio
> primarily aren't truly literate and you can tell by the way they write
> e-mails: is that what you're saying?  Well let me be your teacher and
> quote and correct your own mistakes that you have made in your lengthy
> reply.

> <spelling error>    aAmen(I guess you are trying to say Amen to that or
> something similar--note the repetition of the first letter A.)

> <grammatical clumsiness> if you don't braille than you are not truly
> literate. (I guess you mean: if you don't know/use/are competent in,
> Braille then you are not truly literate.)

> <run on sentence> If you doubt this then read emails from blind people
> who don't know braille there spelling and (There should be a period
> after the word Braille.)

> <spelling error> gramar and punctuation leave alot to be desired.  (In
> this sentence grammar and a lot are misspelled.)

> <run on sentence> I have been there myself if I don't read then I to
> will fall in to trap as well.  (There should be a period after the word
> myself.)

> If you truly want to be literate then you just have
> <spelling error> toread and not just listen to audio.  (there is a run
> on word toread that should be separated into 'to read.')
> Those of us who  do prefer braille and would rather read than listen
> have only audio as the option all to often. For me if I want to stay
> literate then I have to read braille and as I said in my email to Grumpy
> Dave I can't
> <spelling error> amagine my life with out braille.  (I guess you mean
> 'imagine my life without Braille.)

> <wrong use of the word loose> I have had braille most of my life and I
> would loose independence (I guess you mean lose independence.)

> <spelling error> ifI were to not know braille.   (You ran the words If
> and I together.)

> Reading braille is active reading but listening to audio or computer
> speech is just passive reading.

> I prefer to <spelling error> activly read but most of the time I can't
> because it's audio only.  (You misspelled actively.)

> <spelling errors and a run on sentence> I do rember haveing to cary
> volumes of braille books acrost campus at the blind school but I never
> gave it a though it was just what I hav to do it was no problem for me
> at all.   (You misspelled remember, having, across and probably mean the
> word had when you wrote hav. And I almost forgot, you used the word
> though instead of thought.)  (There should be a period after the word
> thought.)

> The campus at the Michigan school for the blind in Lansing Michigan
> covered a 4 city block area.  I tried college back in 1987-1988 and I
> could have
> <spelling error> donee much better if I had braille.  (You misspelled
> the word done.)

> <spelling errors> I had tapes from recording forthe blind but I had
> issues with the readers with pronouncations.   (you ran the words for
> and the together.  You misspelled pronunciation.)

> I remember taking test and what I heard during the test sounded nothing
> like what I heard on the tapes.

> If I would have had my books in braille I would have known the correct
> words and the tests would have made <spelling error> sinse.  (You
> misspelled the word sense.)

> <spelling error> If yur going to read on tape then you must be able to
> speak properly and say your words properly.   (You misspelled the word
> you're--or at least I think that's what you meant by writing the word yur.)

> <grammatical oddity> There was the issue of only tape at a time and
> having to send 2 copies of every book to recording for the blind to be
> recorded.  (I'm not quite sure, but I think you meant 'only one tape at
> a time.)

> <spelling error> Audio is usless if I don't know what you are saying.
> (You misspelled useless.)

> This is why we need braille.  Braille readers don't make a big deal of
> how many volumes a book is it just is.


> LONG STORY SHORT: BRIAN, YOU ARE A POOR EXAMPLE OF THE IDEA THAT BRAILLE
> READERS WRITE COHERENT AND GRAMATICALLY CORRECT E-MAIL MESSAGES.
> On 3/6/2020 3:01 PM, brian wrote:
>> aAmen if you don't braille than you are not truly literate. If you
>> doubt this then read emails from blind people who don't know braille
>> there spelling and gramar and punctuation leave alot to be desired.  I
>> have been there myself if I don't read then I to will fall in to trap
>> as well.  If you truly want to be literate then you just have toread
>> and not just listen to audio.  Those of us who  do prefer braille and
>> would rather read than listen have only audio as the option all to
>> often. For me if I want to stay literate then I have to read braille
>> and as I said in my email to Grumpy Dave I can't amagine my life with
>> out braille.  I have had braille most of my life and I would loose
>> independence ifI were to not know braille.  Reading braille is active
>> reading but listening to audio or computer speech is just passive
>> reading.  I prefer to activly read but most of the time I can't
>> because it's audio only.  I do rember haveing to cary volumes of
>> braille books acrost campus at the blind school but I never gave it a
>> though it was just what I hav to do it was no problem for me at all.
>> The campus at the Michigan school for the blind in Lansing Michigan
>> covered a 4 city block area.  I tried college back in 1987-1988 and I
>> could have donee much better if I had braille.  I had tapes from
>> recording forthe blind but I had issues with the readers with
>> pronouncations.  I remember taking test and what I heard during the
>> test sounded nothing like what I heard on the tapes.  If I would have
>> had my books in braille I would have known the correct words and the
>> tests would have made sinse.  If yur going to read on tape then you
>> must be able to speak properly and say your words properly.  There was
>> the issue of only tape at a time and having to send 2 copies of every
>> book to recording for the blind to be recorded.  Audio is usless if I
>> don't know what you are saying. This is why we need braille.  Braille
>> readers don't make a big deal of how many volumes a book is it just is.

>> Brian Sackrider

>> On 3/6/2020 7:26 AM, chris judge wrote:
>>> This is true. There is a huge difference between not learning braille
>>> if you've lost your site later in life. The unfortunate fact is that
>>> even people who are blind since birth are not learning braille at the
>>> rate they were when I was a kid 50 years ago. If you are blind since
>>> birth and you don't learn braille you miss out on basic literacy. How
>>> do you learn proper spelling, grammar, punctuation and such if you
>>> don't learn braile. If you have had site you already understand these
>>> things so knowing braille isn't as paramount.

>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of
>>> Victor
>>> Sent: March 6, 2020 12:42 AM
>>> To: main@techtalk.groups.io
>>> Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

>>> Hello everyone:

>>> I would like to point out that many blind people lose their eyesight
>>> later in life and they find it too difficult to learn braille. It is
>>> much easier for them to access information by listening to audio.
>>> It’s hard enough for them to get over losing their eyesight and live
>>> without seeing their loved ones or other things ever again. The last
>>> thing they want is to learn a new skill that they may find just too
>>> difficult.

>>> After obtaining my iPhone, I attended a users group where are the
>>> people taught each other to use iOS devices. While at the group one
>>> day, one of the group leaders brought a focus 40 refreshable braille
>>> display for everyone to examine. I was the only blind person in the
>>> room interested in touching the device because I knew braille and I
>>> owned a previous generation of that device. It was not discussed, but
>>> I knew that they were not interested because most of them had lost
>>> their eyesight later in life. I suspect that they found it much
>>> easier to listen to audio than reading braille. Plus, most of them
>>> had learned how to access information using their iPhones. I’m sure
>>> they found it much easier to whip out their iPhones and listen to
>>> their books, podcasts, scan documents and do everything else we can
>>> do with our iPhones. I realize that not everyone owns a smart phone
>>> because they have not found a way to obtain one. I also realize that
>>> not everyone is into these types of gadgets. However, many blind
>>> people have discovered how great these gadgets are and how useful
>>> they can be in helping them become more independent. For many of us,
>>> that is the route we have chosen.

>>> In any case, don’t be too surprised if you meet a blind person who is
>>> not interested in learning braille. Don’t be too hard on those
>>> people. Maybe they just prefer to do what is easier.

>>> I am so glad that refreshable braille displays exist now. I am also
>>> glad that low cost refreshable braille displays are being developed.
>>> I definitely don’t miss the days of carrying bulky braille books to
>>> and from my classes. I do not miss the days of trying to look up
>>> words in the dictionary and dealing with a whole bookshelf of braille
>>> books. No thank you! I do not miss my five volume braille New Testament.

>>> If I did not already on a refreshable braille display, I would
>>> definitely look into obtaining the orbit braille reader or the
>>> braille me.


>>> Anyhow, these are just my rambling opinions.

>>> Victor Sent from my iPhone

>>>> On Mar 5, 2020, at 7:40 PM, brian <bsackrider55@...> wrote:

>>>>     Thanks Grumpy Dave for your explination.  I would be willing to
>>>> pay a few dollars to get braille. I am not saying that I should get
>>>> for free but not to have the option is my complaint.  My local
>>>> liberary use to provide braille for 10 cents per page.   I was also
>>>> told that if I provided the paper they would braille what I wanted.
>>>> They required 67 weight paper which I can get at Staples.  All to
>>>> often we are forced to except only audio as the only format that is
>>>> available. Braille will always be my prefered format because I
>>>> prefer to read for myself instead of just listen.  You say that you
>>>> hate braille but you can use it well I feel the same about audio.
>>>> Why do we have to be locked in to just one format?  How many people
>>>> would rather read than listen?  Blind or sighted. People who prefer
>>>> to read than should be commended instead of being kind of bashed for
>>>> it.  If not many blind people request braille than it should be no
>>>> trouble to provide it. Braille is not that dificult to produce once
>>>> you have the equipment.  my liberary had no trouble all they needed
>>>> was files in microsoft word and the paper and they were good to go.
>>>> I use to get my weekly meterials for my church all in grade 2
>>>> braille. It was really great to finally be an active participant in
>>>> the service instead just a pasive listener.  To be able to read
>>>> along with everyone else the verses and hyms and classes lessons is
>>>> a great feeling you just can't discribe the independence that it
>>>> givesyou.  It's kind of like having access to dvs you can finally
>>>> know what is going on when there is all of that dead air.  I was
>>>> able to read infront of the church and be active in bible study and
>>>> even lead the groop all using braille.  I do use braille menus when
>>>> ever possible even if I don't really need it just to let them see
>>>> that somone is acually using it.  Braille has given me a very full
>>>> life and I don't know whear my life would be with out braille.  I
>>>> feel that every blind person who is able to read braille should
>>>> learn it.  I do understand that there are blind people who have
>>>> medical conditions that prevents them from being able to read
>>>> braille.  For them they have no choice but to use audio but I do
>>>> have the choice I just don't like being limited to just audio only
>>>> and not braille.  You hate braille and I hate audio.  a good example
>>>> of when I wish that I had braille instead of a file was when I
>>>> requested my local newspaper to be accessable.  my lions club
>>>> purchassed a sara reading machine for me there was no braille manual
>>>> but there was a print manual.  I had to go to the help file on the
>>>> machine and try to find what I wanted.  When I called the paper
>>>> office they asked what files my machine could read.  If I had a
>>>> braille manual I could have just looked it up while on the phone and
>>>> gave them the answer.  I had to call back after I went to the help
>>>> file and found it.  This is very time concuming I can look up
>>>> somthing much faster in braille than any other format.  I am not
>>>> saying that I can do it as quick as a sighted person can with print
>>>> but for me it's the fastest way for me to get the job done.  When I
>>>> was a kid I attended the Michigan school the blind in Lansing and we
>>>> had to learn braille and all of our books were in braille.  There
>>>> was no I don't want to learn it you had to.  I will say that I can
>>>> certainly listen much faster than I can read but when it comes to
>>>> looking up somthing braille is faster hands down.  I have been blind
>>>> since birth and thats all I ever knew was braille. It's like the
>>>> sighted grew up with print.  I wanted to learn the opticon at the
>>>> rehab center but they would not let me because they said that I was
>>>> not fast enough.  I felt that I was learning and making progress and
>>>> I should had the right to continue but they said no. If somone
>>>> really wants to learn a new skil then they should beallowed to do
>>>> so.  If I am determind to learn somthing that then I will even
>>>> though it might take more time then the teacher would like.  I guess
>>>> that modavation means nothing.  If somone reallly wants to learn
>>>> braille so what ifit takes several month to do so they should not be
>>>> told no you can't continue.  If companies had the equipment to
>>>> produce braille they could charge me for the cost of the paper to
>>>> get braille manuals or catalogs.

>>>>> On 3/5/2020 9:26 PM, Dave wrote:
>>>>> Hello Brian,


>>>>> I have nothing against Braille other than the hassle it is to create
>>>>> it, such as a Manual in Braille.


>>>>> I've been blind for a long time now, and there were many times when I
>>>>> would have Kissed the Feet of anyone who gave me a manual in Audio
>>>>> format.  many times have I had to just Wing it, learning by Guess and
>>>>> by Golly.  Once Computers became a Tool for the Blind, Guessing was
>>>>> not always the best thing to do, as guessing wrong could ruin your
>>>>> day in a Big way.  Still can.


>>>>> but, Brian, I have no Beef with Braille.   To produce it is just
>>>>> not an
>>>>> easy task.  And I would guess that most manufacturers of items for
>>>>> the blind, may not want to hire another Staff member to do nothing
>>>>> but print out Manuals in Braille.


>>>>> Yes, it all sounds good, until the costs of doing such a thing is
>>>>> considered.


>>>>> These days, I do expect a Manual at least in a PDF format, if not an
>>>>> Audio file.  And if I own my own Braille Printer, I can then print
>>>>> out the PDF file.


>>>>> Although, I can't afford one of those printers, so I do without.


>>>>> However,  I could run the Audio file through an Audio to Text
>>>>> converter, and then print that file out in Braille.


>>>>> When I get nothing but an On Line Manual, where I need to go On Line
>>>>> to read the thing.  I am Thankful for at least that much, but I
>>>>> always look to see if I can just download the manual so I don't need
>>>>> to be going On Line so much.


>>>>> Call it my personal Taste.


>>>>> I would think most who are Blind have learned over and over again to
>>>>> look for Work Arounds for doing many things in Life.


>>>>> You like Braille, and while I do use it, I Hate it.  So a Braille
>>>>> Manual would be a waste of resources to send me one.


>>>>> You Love it, and can use it well.  So, when the Company doesn't send
>>>>> a manual in Braille, but has sent you one in PDF, or even Audio, if
>>>>> you want a manual in Braille, the Work around is to convert that
>>>>> Audio or
>>>>> PDF file into Braille.   And if you are like me, and can't afford a
>>>>> Braille Printer, there are Services that will take your Manual file
>>>>> and make you a manual in Braille.


>>>>> it may cost you a few dollars, which again is all part of the Life of
>>>>> someone who is Blind.  In the past, I have hired Readers to read
>>>>> Manuals on Tape.  Paid them $10 for every hour of Recorded material.


>>>>> I've paid people to read my Mail.  This was before smart Phones had
>>>>> built in Cameras and OCR programs.   I paid them $10 an hour too. this
>>>>> was back in the 1980's and 90's.


>>>>> I haven't had to hire anyone for about 20 years now


>>>>> And Dare I bring up the Quality of Manuals?  So often, regardless of
>>>>> what Format it comes in, the information in the thing is totally Nuts!
>>>>> It doesn't make Sense, and you can't tell if it is a Translation of
>>>>> something in Chinese to English, or from Chinese to Spanish and then
>>>>> Russian, and then to English etc.


>>>>> And some manuals that come in English  are so poorly written, lack
>>>>> helpful information and seem to be missing a great deal of actual
>>>>> instructional information and are next to useless in any format.


>>>>> Grumpy Dave



















> --
> They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
> They ask: "How Happy are You?"
> I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


>

--
Ann K. Parsons
Portal Tutoring
EMAIL:  akp@...
Author of The Demmies: http://www.dldbooks.com/annparsons/
Portal Tutoring web site:  http://www.portaltutoring.info
Skype: Putertutor

"All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost."




locked Re: warning if you doing business

Carolyn Arnold
 

Hands to read, hands to type - wouldn't give up JAWS for Braille - time and place, etc.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io [mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io] On Behalf Of brian
Sent: Saturday, March 7, 2020 6:23 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

I am glad that some of you got to learn the opaton I was not so lucky. It would be like reading braille in that you are reading how words are spelled. When I was at the rehab center I wanted to learn it but I was told that I was not learning fast enough. This has been my experience even in school that if I did want to learn a new skill I was told no. Teachers don't want to teach. When somone does want to learn but teachers refuse to them thats a big problem. I have always that I did need to learn new skills becausing the ways that they were teaching me did not work. When it came to learning math they only tought the abacus and that is not real math. my teacher told that it does not teach math concepts and it is not the way that math is done by every else. He told me that sighted peopleadd from right to left but it is left to right on the abacus. The only thing that the blind school tough well was braille. At the rehab center I wanted to learn how to use the gas stove and eletronic mobility devices but I was told no. I also told them that I need to learn how to travel in areas with out sidewalks because that was my town was like at the time. I have always that I have had alot of deficenties in my education and in other skills but i always got told no you can't learn that. Thats the story of my life teachers that don't care to teach me the things that I need to know. They didn't care if I learned anything or not. We don't all learn the same but they just can't understand that. What works for you may not work for me. I don't understand why teachers don't want to teach somone who does want to learn. It would be one thing if they did try to teach me and I did not want to learn but that was not the case. Both the blind school and the rehab center were a big joke a total waist of my time I did not learn very much as I should have. I think that reason that I am so highly opinionated about braille is that was the whole focus of blind school. We had to read and write in braille and everything that we needed to read was in braille. We had to read braille and not listen to audio books it was all braille and noaudio at all. I atended the Michigan school from age 5 to age 21 and I have been totally blind from birth. All of our text books were inbraille as well as books for book reports. They could be about almost anything except romance books. We were strongly encouraged to read for pleasure not just for our school work. They toughtto highly braille over audio. We were encouraged to read braille and not just listen to tapes. If you were totally blind then braille was what you had to read not learning it was not an option. If you did not want to do your work in school then you would have to stay after school until you did even if itmeant missing your next meal. The importance of braille was always stressed and that is so neccessary for your independence. You can read whear and when ever you want. You can write down what ever you wantto or need to read later. You can play games with sighted people read just for fun and school or work. I have said how braille let me be more active in church with out braille I would not have had that. I will never understand how blind people can say that they don't want to learn braille. Perhaps it's because they did not atend a blind school like I did for most of my life. Braille has given me a much fuller life than I would have ever had with out it. I would never want to have audio as my only option and all of this high tenology can and does fail and it's often very expensive. If you lived in a totaly braille world for most of your life but it's an almost brailleless world than you might understand whear I am coming from. We now live in an almost brailleless world but if I had my choice we would have just as much braille as the sighted have had print. This would be the ideal world for me this would be just perfect. There would be only braille and no other formats. There would be no need for any audio or computer speech because everything would be in braille just like at school. Braille will always be the very best thing that has ever been invented for the blind nothing elsewill ever compear to it or be as good as it is. Nothing will or can ever replace paper braille not now and not ever. No audio or any technology we don't need any of it we need only braille paper only. The only thing that wouldeven come close would be if we could all have optacons and have teachers that would teach us how to read print that would be exceptabl. If we had optacons we could read anything that is not in braille. We would still be reading with our fingers and not with our ears. The optacon would be a close second to braille. as you know by now I will always prefer toread with my fingers and not my ears. I have to listen rather than read because thats all there is that might be your preferance but it's not mine. We should all have the right to the format of our choice and not be forced to one thats not.

Brian Sackrider

On 3/7/2020 4:00 PM, Evan Reese wrote:
I had forgotten about the Optacon in this discussion. I am fortunate
enough to be able to have two of them, so I won't have to go without
if I should have to send one back to Richard Oehm for repair. I hope
he lives forever! <smile> I use one of mine every day for something.
So I read print via touch. I don't think anyone would say that I'm not
reading when I use an Optacon to find out what's on a print page just
because I'm using a different sense than sight.
Conversely, I knew teachers at the blind school I went to who read
braille with their eyes. I don't think anyone would say they weren't
reading either, even though braille is a different set of symbols from
print, even more so in the case of contracted braille.
So using my own statements to argue that I am not really reading
braille is a misinterpretation or misunderstanding of what I actually
said.
Evan
-----Original Message----- From: Carolyn Arnold
Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2020 3:20 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

When I was a medical secretary in a surgical pathology office, I used
my Optacon for some dictionaries, code and drug books, patient name
spelling - a lot of things. But, I had some Braille reference books
and my slate and stylus for some note taking and personal filing. One
of the doctors said that I worked, "in two languages."

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io [mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io] On
Behalf Of Ron Canazzi
Sent: Saturday, March 7, 2020 12:38 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

Hi Evan,

Well this analysis while tightly argued, is like a biblical literalist
that represents a false dialectic by only examining terminologies and
factoids that support their own belief structure.

One falsehood of your argument is in semantics Since the perception of
reading has been from time immemorial the use of one's eyes and
printed material to intake facts derived by, thought of and/or written
down by others. If so, then how is it that Braille can be thought of
as the exact equivalent of print when it in fact is not. Not only is
it not the same as a standard 26 character alphabet, but it also uses
a different sense--that of the sense of touch to extract the ideas
from the materials.

In a very strict sense of the syntactical world and using at least in
part, your own rigid interpretation of 'reading' actually is, then you
as a Braille reader really aren't reading in the classic sense of the
word either.

That's why I believe that words serve only a function of communicating
basic ideas and that there must be flexibility, discourse,
investigation and relatively speaking a scientific type analysis of
each and every issue for true knowledge to be obtained.

Once again, if the importance of what is known as reading is that we
communicate ideas, then the mechanics as to what is defined as reading
should be secondary to how the ideas are being transferred.


On 3/6/2020 9:06 PM, Evan Reese wrote:


Well, I would say that listening to an audio book is not the same as
reading it, either in braille or print.
To illustrate, if I tell you a story, would you say that you had read
it? No. Now, what if I write down the story and read it to you, either
in person or on the phone. Would you say that you had read it? I don’t
think so.
Now, suppose I make a recording of me reading the story and send it to
you. Would you say that you had read it? The only difference is that,
instead of reading it to you live, I’m reading it on tape, as we used
to say.
So no, listening to someone read a book is not the same thing as
reading it oneself. You may still get the information, but you didn’t
read it if you listened to someone else read it.
I don’t think a synthetic voice makes any difference. True, it doesn’t
know what it’s saying, but you still have an intermediary between
yourself and the actual text, you’re still listening to (in this
case), a computer translate the actual text into words. So, even
though it doesn’t comprehend what it is translating, it is still
reading to you in the strictest sense. You are not reading when using
a synthetic voice.
But language changes, definitions change over time. It may happen soon
that people will say that they are actually reading when they are
listening to a voice, any voice, whether human or synthetic, read to
them. Many people already say that, so I think we’re on the way. I
don’t care all that much. I’ve done it myself, said that I read a book
when I actually listened to someone else read it. I don’t make a big
deal out of it. But you asked for thoughts, and that’s what I actually
believe, even if I speak off-handedly about reading audio books.
Evan

From: David Goldfield <mailto:david.goldfield@...>
Sent: Friday, March 06, 2020 6:58 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business


I'd like to address this topic of literacy when talking about whether
or not a person is able or not able to read Braille. I wrote a blog
post about this a while ago as these were questions which I was
considering and I'd like to share this post with you if you have an
interest in reading it. I'm afraid that it really doesn't answer these
questions and, in fact, may raise a few additional ones that some of
us might not have considered. Here is the post.




Consuming Books: Reading Vs. Listening


1 <https://davidgoldfield.wordpress.com/2017/05/14/168318/#comments>

This morning I was browsing my Facebook timeline and stumbled on a
post from one of my friends who posed a very interesting question. The
question has to do with the wording we use to convey how we consume
audio books. My friend pointed out that she’s noticing a trend, both
with blind and sighted readers, where they will use the verb “listen”
instead of “read”, as in “I just finished listening to that book” as
opposed to “I just finished reading that book”, as if consuming a book
via audio isn’t quite the same as reading it.

First, I’ll provide a bit of background into my own life as an avid
reader. I learned how to read Braille when I was around four and how
to write it not much later than that. I’ve always found reading
Braille to be very easy and I’ve been reading books using Braille for
about as long as I can remember. I remember the enjoyment I always
felt going to my school library, browsing the many shelves of Braille
books and being able to check out one or two books a week, which I
always read quickly. Of course, there were many books, known as
talking books, which were recorded on cassettes’ as well as on
phonograph records. Talking books have been available for blind and
visually impaired consumers to borrow since the 1930s, way before
audio books became popular with sighted consumers. While I never
hesitated to borrow a book on tape from my library, Braille was always
my preferred medium and, when given a choice between Braille and
audio, Braille was always what I chose.

As I’ve embraced new technologies the way I consume books has also
changed. Nearly all of the books which I consume are done so audibly
and not in Braille. There are several reasons for this and they don’t
apply to all readers who are blind. First, most of the books which I
want to read are just not available in Braille. While the National
Library Service <http://www.loc.gov/nls> produces many Braille books
there are simply more titles available in an audio format. Even then
the amount of books produced by NLS, while I greatly appreciate the
work that they do, is a drop in the bucket compared to the amount of
titles available from other suppliers. Bookshare
<http://www.bookshare.org/> , another specialized library for people
with print disabilities, offers over half a million books and that
number continues to increase. Learning Ally
<http://www.learningally.org/> is another specialized library which
I’ve used for over 35 years, offers around 80,000 human-narrated
titles. Of course, mainstream book suppliers such as the Kindle store
offer millions of books, with more constantly being added. These
specialized and mainstream suppliers offer a much greater selection of
books than what I am able to borrow from my local NLS affiliate.

Some readers will no doubt want to remind me of the fact that we do
have Braille display technology, which will work both with my computer
as well as with my phone. This is certainly true and a Braille display
would certainly allow me to read books from any of these suppliers
using the same Braille code that I enjoyed using with books printed on
paper. However, there are reasons which, for me, make this an
impractical solution.

First, Braille display technology, while readily available for many
devices, is often costly. As an example, Freedom Scientific’s most
inexpensive Braille display, the Focus 14 Blue, costs $1295.00. At
this time spending over a thousand dollars for a Braille display is
just not something which I could easily do, considering it’s a device
that I don’t truly need. However, even if a Braille display magically
dropped onto my desk the fact is that I do a lot of reading either on
the train or lying in bed. Reading with a Braille display on a moving
train, no matter how portable, is just too awkward. When I’m lying in
bed and wanted to read a book it’s just so much easier to do this with
a small phone and would prove to be a bit less convenient if I added
even a 14-cell display.

Anyway, back to the topic. My friend was pointing out that she has
noticed that many people say they’ve listened to a book as opposed to
reading it if the book was consumed in an audio medium, such as an
audio CD or listening to it with synthetic speech using the Kindle
app. However, this also makes me think of how we often use the word
“read” when we actually have listened to the book.

This raises some interesting questions. When it comes to books, is it
fair to consider it reading regardless of how it’s consumed? There are
probably some sighted people who feel that the only way to truly read
a book is to do so by processing the printed material visually. Of
course, as blind people we know this is certainly not the case. All of
us would agree that processing the information with our fingers would
just as validly be considered reading as processing the information
with our eyes and, in that instance, there is no controversy. However,
the wording sometimes changes when we shift from print on a page to
either a human narrator or a synthetic voice coming from a pair of
speakers or from our portable phones and tablets. If I consumed a book
by listening to it with an app such as Voice Dream Reader, am I wrong
to say that I’ve read the book? Most blind people would say that I’m
not and I would tend to agree with them.

However, let’s say we have an individual who is blind who never
learned how to read Braille. There are some valid reasons for why they
might not have been taught how to read and write in Braille, such as
having neuropathy in their fingers which would prevent them from being
able to distinguish the dot patterns. In such a case, this blind
individual would only be able to consume books in an audible format.
Considering this, would we look at that blind person who didn’t know
Braille and conclude, if only to ourselves, that this person was
illiterate. We might not say that to their face in the course of
normal conversation but do we consider a blind person who doesn’t know
Braille to be illiterate? If the answer to that question is yes then
can we say that this blind person, not knowing Braille, has “read” a
book when it was consumed by listening. If we say no, then why is it
acceptable for me to say that I’ve read a book and my hypothetical
blind person could not say that, just because I can read Braille and
he cannot.

Let’s take this a step further and consider a fully sighted person
who, for one reason or another, never learned how to read print.
There’s no doubt that we would conclude that this person would be
considered illiterate. Saying so is not meant as an insult but, in
this case, is indisputable; someone who can’t read is illiterate. My
hypothetical blind person might not have the ability to learn Braille
and the sighted person could, with proper training, learn how to read
print but, until that individual chooses to take classes in how to
read, we would all agree that he’s illiterate. Given that fact, would
we tend to disagree with the illiterate sighted person if he told us
that he “read” a particular book by consuming it in an audible medium?
Wouldn’t we think, “No, you didn’t really read that book, you listened
to it.” If this is the case, then why is it OK for me, as a blind
person who knows Braille, to tell people that I may have read the same
book by consuming it in the exact same way but yet fewer people would
think of challenging my word choices.

Admittedly, this isn’t the most important topic which should concern
us. I don’t think about it all that much and it certainly doesn’t keep
me up at night. However, I think these issues are important as it has
really forced me to think about what we mean when we speak of what it
means to be literate.



As an aside, the person who brought up this topic is one of the
proprietors of Speeddots, <http://speeddots.com/> which sells various
tactile screen protectors for your Apple iDevice. They also sell
various Bluetooth accessories as well as rugged lightning cables with
a life-time warranty.

So, how do you feel about this? For you, does listening to an audio
book qualify as reading it? I’d love to hear your thoughts in the
comments.

David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist JAWS Certified, 2019

WWW.DavidGoldfield.org <http://WWW.DavidGoldfield.org> On 3/6/2020
6:21 PM, Ron Canazzi wrote:


Now Brian,

I don't want to personalize this, but you say you're a good Braille
reader now: correct? You say that people who use audio primarily
aren't truly literate and you can tell by the way they write
e-mails: is that what you're saying? Well let me be your teacher and
quote and correct your own mistakes that you have made in your lengthy
reply.

<spelling error> aAmen(I guess you are trying to say Amen to that
or something similar--note the repetition of the first letter A.)

<grammatical clumsiness> if you don't braille than you are not truly
literate. (I guess you mean: if you don't know/use/are competent in,
Braille then you are not truly literate.)

<run on sentence> If you doubt this then read emails from blind people
who don't know braille there spelling and (There should be a period
after the word Braille.)

<spelling error> gramar and punctuation leave alot to be desired. (In
this sentence grammar and a lot are misspelled.)

<run on sentence> I have been there myself if I don't read then I to
will fall in to trap as well. (There should be a period after the
word myself.)

If you truly want to be literate then you just have <spelling error>
toread and not just listen to audio. (there is a run on word toread
that should be separated into 'to read.') Those of us who do prefer
braille and would rather read than listen have only audio as the
option all to often. For me if I want to stay literate then I have to
read braille and as I said in my email to Grumpy Dave I can't
<spelling error> amagine my life with out braille. (I guess you mean
'imagine my life without Braille.)

<wrong use of the word loose> I have had braille most of my life and I
would loose independence (I guess you mean lose independence.)

<spelling error> ifI were to not know braille. (You ran the words If
and I together.)

Reading braille is active reading but listening to audio or computer
speech is just passive reading.

I prefer to <spelling error> activly read but most of the time I can't
because it's audio only. (You misspelled actively.)

<spelling errors and a run on sentence> I do rember haveing to cary
volumes of braille books acrost campus at the blind school but I never
gave it a though it was just what I hav to do it was no problem for me
at all. (You misspelled remember, having, across and probably mean
the word had when you wrote hav. And I almost forgot, you used the
word though instead of thought.) (There should be a period after the
word thought.)

The campus at the Michigan school for the blind in Lansing Michigan
covered a 4 city block area. I tried college back in 1987-1988 and I
could have <spelling error> donee much better if I had braille. (You
misspelled the word done.)

<spelling errors> I had tapes from recording forthe blind but I had
issues with the readers with pronouncations. (you ran the words for
and the together. You misspelled pronunciation.)

I remember taking test and what I heard during the test sounded
nothing like what I heard on the tapes.

If I would have had my books in braille I would have known the correct
words and the tests would have made <spelling error> sinse. (You
misspelled the word sense.)

<spelling error> If yur going to read on tape then you must be able to
speak properly and say your words properly. (You misspelled the word
you're--or at least I think that's what you meant by writing the word
yur.)

<grammatical oddity> There was the issue of only tape at a time and
having to send 2 copies of every book to recording for the blind to be
recorded. (I'm not quite sure, but I think you meant 'only one tape at
a time.)

<spelling error> Audio is usless if I don't know what you are saying.
(You misspelled useless.)

This is why we need braille. Braille readers don't make a big deal of
how many volumes a book is it just is.


LONG STORY SHORT: BRIAN, YOU ARE A POOR EXAMPLE OF THE IDEA THAT
BRAILLE READERS WRITE COHERENT AND GRAMATICALLY CORRECT E-MAIL MESSAGES.
On 3/6/2020 3:01 PM, brian wrote:


aAmen if you don't braille than you are not truly literate. If you
doubt this then read emails from blind people who don't know braille
there spelling and gramar and punctuation leave alot to be desired. I
have been there myself if I don't read then I to will fall in to trap
as well. If you truly want to be literate then you just have toread
and not just listen to audio. Those of us who do prefer braille and
would rather read than listen have only audio as the option all to
often. For me if I want to stay literate then I have to read braille
and as I said in my email to Grumpy Dave I can't amagine my life with
out braille. I have had braille most of my life and I would loose
independence ifI were to not know braille. Reading braille is active
reading but listening to audio or computer speech is just passive
reading. I prefer to activly read but most of the time I can't
because it's audio only. I do rember haveing to cary volumes of
braille books acrost campus at the blind school but I never gave it a
though it was just what I hav to do it was no problem for me at all.
The campus at the Michigan school for the blind in Lansing Michigan
covered a 4 city block area. I tried college back in 1987-1988 and I
could have donee much better if I had braille. I had tapes from
recording forthe blind but I had issues with the readers with
pronouncations. I remember taking test and what I heard during the
test sounded nothing like what I heard on the tapes. If I would have
had my books in braille I would have known the correct words and the
tests would have made sinse. If yur going to read on tape then you
must be able to speak properly and say your words properly. There was
the issue of only tape at a time and having to send 2 copies of every
book to recording for the blind to be recorded. Audio is usless if I
don't know what you are saying. This is why we need braille. Braille
readers don't make a big deal of how many volumes a book is it just is.

Brian Sackrider

On 3/6/2020 7:26 AM, chris judge wrote:


This is true. There is a huge difference between not learning braille
if you've lost your site later in life. The unfortunate fact is that
even people who are blind since birth are not learning braille at the
rate they were when I was a kid 50 years ago. If you are blind since
birth and you don't learn braille you miss out on basic literacy. How
do you learn proper spelling, grammar, punctuation and such if you
don't learn braile. If you have had site you already understand these
things so knowing braille isn't as paramount.

-----Original Message----- From: main@TechTalk.groups.io
<mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io> mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io On
Behalf Of Victor
Sent: March 6, 2020 12:42 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io <mailto:main@techtalk.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

Hello everyone:

I would like to point out that many blind people lose their eyesight
later in life and they find it too difficult to learn braille. It is
much easier for them to access information by listening to audio. It’s
hard enough for them to get over losing their eyesight and live
without seeing their loved ones or other things ever again. The last
thing they want is to learn a new skill that they may find just too
difficult.

After obtaining my iPhone, I attended a users group where are the
people taught each other to use iOS devices. While at the group one
day, one of the group leaders brought a focus 40 refreshable braille
display for everyone to examine. I was the only blind person in the
room interested in touching the device because I knew braille and I
owned a previous generation of that device. It was not discussed, but
I knew that they were not interested because most of them had lost
their eyesight later in life. I suspect that they found it much easier
to listen to audio than reading braille. Plus, most of them had
learned how to access information using their iPhones. I’m sure they
found it much easier to whip out their iPhones and listen to their
books, podcasts, scan documents and do everything else we can do with
our iPhones. I realize that not everyone owns a smart phone because
they have not found a way to obtain one. I also realize that not
everyone is into these types of gadgets. However, many blind people
have discovered how great these gadgets are and how useful they can be
in helping them become more independent. For many of us, that is the
route we have chosen.

In any case, don’t be too surprised if you meet a blind person who is
not interested in learning braille. Don’t be too hard on those people.
Maybe they just prefer to do what is easier.

I am so glad that refreshable braille displays exist now. I am also
glad that low cost refreshable braille displays are being developed. I
definitely don’t miss the days of carrying bulky braille books to and
from my classes. I do not miss the days of trying to look up words in
the dictionary and dealing with a whole bookshelf of braille books. No
thank you! I do not miss my five volume braille New Testament.

If I did not already on a refreshable braille display, I would
definitely look into obtaining the orbit braille reader or the braille
me.


Anyhow, these are just my rambling opinions.

Victor Sent from my iPhone



On Mar 5, 2020, at 7:40 PM, brian mailto:bsackrider55@... wrote:

 Thanks Grumpy Dave for your explination. I would be willing to
pay a few dollars to get braille. I am not saying that I should get
for free but not to have the option is my complaint. My local
liberary use to provide braille for 10 cents per page. I was also
told that if I provided the paper they would braille what I wanted.
They required 67 weight paper which I can get at Staples. All to
often we are forced to except only audio as the only format that is
available. Braille will always be my prefered format because I prefer
to read for myself instead of just listen. You say that you hate
braille but you can use it well I feel the same about audio. Why do we
have to be locked in to just one format? How many people would rather
read than listen? Blind or sighted. People who prefer to read than
should be commended instead of being kind of bashed for it. If not
many blind people request braille than it should be no trouble to
provide it. Braille is not that dificult to produce once you have the
equipment. my liberary had no trouble all they needed was files in
microsoft word and the paper and they were good to go. I use to get
my weekly meterials for my church all in grade 2 braille. It was
really great to finally be an active participant in the service
instead just a pasive listener. To be able to read along with
everyone else the verses and hyms and classes lessons is a great
feeling you just can't discribe the independence that it givesyou.
It's kind of like having access to dvs you can finally know what is
going on when there is all of that dead air. I was able to read
infront of the church and be active in bible study and even lead the
groop all using braille. I do use braille menus when ever possible
even if I don't really need it just to let them see that somone is
acually using it. Braille has given me a very full life and I don't
know whear my life would be with out braille. I feel that every blind
person who is able to read braille should learn it. I do understand
that there are blind people who have medical conditions that prevents
them from being able to read braille. For them they have no choice
but to use audio but I do have the choice I just don't like being
limited to just audio only and not braille. You hate braille and I
hate audio. a good example of when I wish that I had braille instead
of a file was when I requested my local newspaper to be accessable.
my lions club purchassed a sara reading machine for me there was no
braille manual but there was a print manual. I had to go to the help
file on the machine and try to find what I wanted. When I called the
paper office they asked what files my machine could read. If I had a
braille manual I could have just looked it up while on the phone and
gave them the answer. I had to call back after I went to the help
file and found it. This is very time concuming I can look up somthing
much faster in braille than any other format. I am not saying that I
can do it as quick as a sighted person can with print but for me it's
the fastest way for me to get the job done. When I was a kid I
attended the Michigan school the blind in Lansing and we had to learn
braille and all of our books were in braille. There was no I don't
want to learn it you had to. I will say that I can certainly listen
much faster than I can read but when it comes to looking up somthing
braille is faster hands down. I have been blind since birth and thats
all I ever knew was braille. It's like the sighted grew up with print.
I wanted to learn the opticon at the rehab center but they would not
let me because they said that I was not fast enough. I felt that I
was learning and making progress and I should had the right to
continue but they said no. If somone really wants to learn a new skil
then they should beallowed to do so. If I am determind to learn
somthing that then I will even though it might take more time then the
teacher would like. I guess that modavation means nothing. If somone
reallly wants to learn braille so what ifit takes several month to do
so they should not be told no you can't continue. If companies had
the equipment to produce braille they could charge me for the cost of
the paper to get braille manuals or catalogs.



On 3/5/2020 9:26 PM, Dave wrote:
Hello Brian,


I have nothing against Braille other than the hassle it is to create
it, such as a Manual in Braille.


I've been blind for a long time now, and there were many times when I
would have Kissed the Feet of anyone who gave me a manual in Audio
format. many times have I had to just Wing it, learning by Guess and
by Golly. Once Computers became a Tool for the Blind, Guessing was
not always the best thing to do, as guessing wrong could ruin your day
in a Big way. Still can.


but, Brian, I have no Beef with Braille. To produce it is just not
an easy task. And I would guess that most manufacturers of items for
the blind, may not want to hire another Staff member to do nothing but
print out Manuals in Braille.


Yes, it all sounds good, until the costs of doing such a thing is
considered.


These days, I do expect a Manual at least in a PDF format, if not an
Audio file. And if I own my own Braille Printer, I can then print out
the PDF file.


Although, I can't afford one of those printers, so I do without.


However, I could run the Audio file through an Audio to Text
converter, and then print that file out in Braille.


When I get nothing but an On Line Manual, where I need to go On Line
to read the thing. I am Thankful for at least that much, but I always
look to see if I can just download the manual so I don't need to be
going On Line so much.


Call it my personal Taste.


I would think most who are Blind have learned over and over again to
look for Work Arounds for doing many things in Life.


You like Braille, and while I do use it, I Hate it. So a Braille
Manual would be a waste of resources to send me one.


You Love it, and can use it well. So, when the Company doesn't send a
manual in Braille, but has sent you one in PDF, or even Audio, if you
want a manual in Braille, the Work around is to convert that Audio or
PDF file into Braille. And if you are like me, and can't afford a
Braille Printer, there are Services that will take your Manual file
and make you a manual in Braille.


it may cost you a few dollars, which again is all part of the Life of
someone who is Blind. In the past, I have hired Readers to read
Manuals on Tape. Paid them $10 for every hour of Recorded material.


I've paid people to read my Mail. This was before smart Phones had
built in Cameras and OCR programs. I paid them $10 an hour too. this
was back in the 1980's and 90's.


I haven't had to hire anyone for about 20 years now


And Dare I bring up the Quality of Manuals? So often, regardless of
what Format it comes in, the information in the thing is totally Nuts!
It doesn't make Sense, and you can't tell if it is a Translation of
something in Chinese to English, or from Chinese to Spanish and then
Russian, and then to English etc.


And some manuals that come in English are so poorly written, lack
helpful information and seem to be missing a great deal of actual
instructional information and are next to useless in any format.


Grumpy Dave






















locked Re: warning if you doing business

Gene
 

It is far more useful to discuss possible ways of improving the situation rather than, and I'm sorry if you object, labeling someone with no real diagnostic work.  If you label someone by saying he or she has different learning styles, what does that do?  It implies that the rest of us who don't can do nothing to hhelp.  And you are medicalizing a problem that may simply be largely someone rushing when he becomes emotionally involved in a discussion.  I've seen many messages from Brian and I've seen many much better written ones.  I simply do not believe you can diagnose some sort of problem by reading some e-mails, especially when more plausible explanations exist based on the number of much better written messages I've seen.  I am trying to help by discussing the matter and not ;labeling or diagnosing.  I'm using what I have observed.  You are defending, labeling, and medicalizing a problem when there are other just as plausible or more plausible explanations. 
 
Ours is an age of medicalizing everything.  If you rush to medicalize, you take attempts to help out of the hands of us mere mortals.  it must be done by specialists.  If I were convinced that there were some medical problem in this case, I might defer to the specialists.  You haven't even begun to prove your contention. 
 
I'm sorry if you are offended and don't like what I've written.  I'm not serving anyone if I don't honestly write what I think.
 
Brian has sent a message saying that people on lists have told him to use a spell checker and asking about where to get one.  That indicates that Brian wants to improve.  I'm willing to help and I think a lot of others are as well.  and I think you are as well.
 
I believe that in a situation like this, you try to help by trying to solve problems in a practical way.  One way is to find out what e-mail prohgram Brian is using.  We can proceed from there. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2020 3:35 PM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

Hi all,

No, I am not making unsupported statements.  First, after being a tutor
to both sighted and blind students  in English and in Social Studies,
as well as in braille and adaptive computers,  since 1978, I'm well
acquainted with the signs of writing by persons who have learning
differences.  They are similar to the ways people who are DeafBlind
write, so I wasn't sure which we're dealing with.  Hmmm, let me see,
1978 was forty-two years ago now.  Good Lord, that's a lot of
experience!  I'm still tutoring.

Although he may be rushing to write his responses, his writing has been
consistent during the time I've observed him on various lists.  This is
not a single occurrance.

As for the coasting, he admits it himself in his message.  He said that
his teachers never told him his writing was less than adequate.   That,
Gene, my friend, is the behavior of teachers who allow PWD to coast
through school.

If you want to check out my creds, you can look at my web site below. 
On there is a link called Instructor.  Have a look.

Ann P.




Original message:
> You are making unsupported statements. How do you know Brian has
> learning differences? How do you know he was coasted through school?
> I'll offer an alternative explanation. I'm not saying either are
> correct nor am I saying which one may or may not account for observed
> phenomena better. But how do you know that some or many of these errors
> are not the result of someone feeling strongly about something and
> rushing to get the message written as quickly as possible? If Brian is
> typing far above the speed at which he types more accurately, that may
> result in some of what is observed. And, since I've seen messages from
> Brian that don't have all these mistakes, I'll consider my theory to be
> a possibly better explanation, since I don't know Brian's background
> and I think it is absurd to infer some sort of learning differences
> based on a few e-mails.
> But none of this, learning differences, spelling difficulties, a rush
> to type as quickly as you can to get your message out as fast as
> possible, none of these possibilities precludes the use of a spell checker.
> To this point, I have been writing as a list member. I am now writing
> as the list owner.
> This discussion has been very interesting and we know more about each
> other than we did, thus helping build community on the list. But if the
> discussion becomes mostly one of how messages are written, I'll close
> it. I realize that you and a few others may want to respond to what I
> and others have said but this part of the discussion shouldn't continue
> for more than a few more messages.
> Now, I'm writing as a list member again.
> Brian, I would think it may be uncomfortable seeing your writing
> critiqued. But keep these things in mind and you may find the
> experience useful:
> My view is that if I expect someone to spend the time reading my
> messages and thinking about them, I have a certain responsibility to
> make them reasonably readable. In your case, many people probably have
> to stop to review phrases where words are written together without
> spaces. Because I've seen messages from you that are much better
> written, it appears to me that if you get emotional about a subject,
> you rush to write what you want as quickly as you can. the result is
> errors that make your messages difficult to read, such as words written
> together with no spaces.
> As to spelling, in general I would just let that go. But when you call
> a whole class of people illiterate, then don't use a spellchecker and
> have misspelled wordafter misspelled word, then, like it or not, you
> become part of the discussion. Like it or not, literacy is partly
> sending a message without perhaps thirty or forty or more misspelled
> words. And nothing precludes you from using a spellchecker. As I said,
> in general I wouldn't comment on spelling, but it is inevitable that at
> least a few people will when you accuse people of being illiterate and
> don't use a spell checker, resulting in a great many misspellings. It's
> as though I attended a cooking contest, made a speech before the event
> in which I said that with frozen dinners, no one knows how to cook
> anymore, then I burned the soup and my main dish.
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Ann Parsons <mailto:akp@...>
> Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2020 6:27 AM
> To: main@techtalk.groups.io <mailto:main@techtalk.groups.io>
> Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business
> Hi all,

> I could write a long rant about how I am treated when I correct
> people's spelling publicly. I have been called harsh and arrogant and
> more. I won't do that because it would be counter-productive. I will
> say, however, that taking advantage of someone who has made a public
> mistake is, I feel, cruel. it demeans those who perpetuate such crimes.

> If you wish to correct Brian's writing, you might do so privately,
> thereby giving him the dignity he deserves. It isn't his fault that he
> was coasted through school. It isn't his fault that he may not have a
> braille display or possess hard copy braille so that he could improve
> his writing.

> If you want to help, take it off-list! Truly be of service and not
> part of the problem.

> Ann P.


> Original message:
>> Now Brian,

>> I don't want to personalize this, but you say you're a good
>> Braille reader now: correct? You say that people who use audio
>> primarily aren't truly literate and you can tell by the way they write
>> e-mails: is that what you're saying? Well let me be your teacher and
>> quote and correct your own mistakes that you have made in your lengthy
>> reply.

>> <spelling error> aAmen(I guess you are trying to say Amen to that or
>> something similar--note the repetition of the first letter A.)

>> <grammatical clumsiness> if you don't braille than you are not truly
>> literate. (I guess you mean: if you don't know/use/are competent in,
>> Braille then you are not truly literate.)

>> <run on sentence> If you doubt this then read emails from blind people
>> who don't know braille there spelling and (There should be a period
>> after the word Braille.)

>> <spelling error> gramar and punctuation leave alot to be desired. (In
>> this sentence grammar and a lot are misspelled.)

>> <run on sentence> I have been there myself if I don't read then I to
>> will fall in to trap as well. (There should be a period after the word
>> myself.)

>> If you truly want to be literate then you just have
>> <spelling error> toread and not just listen to audio. (there is a run
>> on word toread that should be separated into 'to read.')
>> Those of us who do prefer braille and would rather read than listen
>> have only audio as the option all to often. For me if I want to stay
>> literate then I have to read braille and as I said in my email to Grumpy
>> Dave I can't
>> <spelling error> amagine my life with out braille. (I guess you mean
>> 'imagine my life without Braille.)

>> <wrong use of the word loose> I have had braille most of my life and I
>> would loose independence (I guess you mean lose independence.)

>> <spelling error> ifI were to not know braille. (You ran the words If
>> and I together.)

>> Reading braille is active reading but listening to audio or computer
>> speech is just passive reading.

>> I prefer to <spelling error> activly read but most of the time I can't
>> because it's audio only. (You misspelled actively.)

>> <spelling errors and a run on sentence> I do rember haveing to cary
>> volumes of braille books acrost campus at the blind school but I never
>> gave it a though it was just what I hav to do it was no problem for me
>> at all. (You misspelled remember, having, across and probably mean the
>> word had when you wrote hav. And I almost forgot, you used the word
>> though instead of thought.) (There should be a period after the word
>> thought.)

>> The campus at the Michigan school for the blind in Lansing Michigan
>> covered a 4 city block area. I tried college back in 1987-1988 and I
>> could have
>> <spelling error> donee much better if I had braille. (You misspelled
>> the word done.)

>> <spelling errors> I had tapes from recording forthe blind but I had
>> issues with the readers with pronouncations. (you ran the words for
>> and the together. You misspelled pronunciation.)

>> I remember taking test and what I heard during the test sounded nothing
>> like what I heard on the tapes.

>> If I would have had my books in braille I would have known the correct
>> words and the tests would have made <spelling error> sinse. (You
>> misspelled the word sense.)

>> <spelling error> If yur going to read on tape then you must be able to
>> speak properly and say your words properly. (You misspelled the word
>> you're--or at least I think that's what you meant by writing the word yur.)

>> <grammatical oddity> There was the issue of only tape at a time and
>> having to send 2 copies of every book to recording for the blind to be
>> recorded. (I'm not quite sure, but I think you meant 'only one tape at
>> a time.)

>> <spelling error> Audio is usless if I don't know what you are saying.
>> (You misspelled useless.)

>> This is why we need braille. Braille readers don't make a big deal of
>> how many volumes a book is it just is.


>> LONG STORY SHORT: BRIAN, YOU ARE A POOR EXAMPLE OF THE IDEA THAT BRAILLE
>> READERS WRITE COHERENT AND GRAMATICALLY CORRECT E-MAIL MESSAGES.
>> On 3/6/2020 3:01 PM, brian wrote:
>>> aAmen if you don't braille than you are not truly literate. If you
>>> doubt this then read emails from blind people who don't know braille
>>> there spelling and gramar and punctuation leave alot to be desired. I
>>> have been there myself if I don't read then I to will fall in to trap
>>> as well. If you truly want to be literate then you just have toread
>>> and not just listen to audio. Those of us who do prefer braille and
>>> would rather read than listen have only audio as the option all to
>>> often. For me if I want to stay literate then I have to read braille
>>> and as I said in my email to Grumpy Dave I can't amagine my life with
>>> out braille. I have had braille most of my life and I would loose
>>> independence ifI were to not know braille. Reading braille is active
>>> reading but listening to audio or computer speech is just passive
>>> reading. I prefer to activly read but most of the time I can't
>>> because it's audio only. I do rember haveing to cary volumes of
>>> braille books acrost campus at the blind school but I never gave it a
>>> though it was just what I hav to do it was no problem for me at all.
>>> The campus at the Michigan school for the blind in Lansing Michigan
>>> covered a 4 city block area. I tried college back in 1987-1988 and I
>>> could have donee much better if I had braille. I had tapes from
>>> recording forthe blind but I had issues with the readers with
>>> pronouncations. I remember taking test and what I heard during the
>>> test sounded nothing like what I heard on the tapes. If I would have
>>> had my books in braille I would have known the correct words and the
>>> tests would have made sinse. If yur going to read on tape then you
>>> must be able to speak properly and say your words properly. There was
>>> the issue of only tape at a time and having to send 2 copies of every
>>> book to recording for the blind to be recorded. Audio is usless if I
>>> don't know what you are saying. This is why we need braille. Braille
>>> readers don't make a big deal of how many volumes a book is it just is.

>>> Brian Sackrider

>>> On 3/6/2020 7:26 AM, chris judge wrote:
>>>> This is true. There is a huge difference between not learning braille
>>>> if you've lost your site later in life. The unfortunate fact is that
>>>> even people who are blind since birth are not learning braille at the
>>>> rate they were when I was a kid 50 years ago. If you are blind since
>>>> birth and you don't learn braille you miss out on basic literacy. How
>>>> do you learn proper spelling, grammar, punctuation and such if you
>>>> don't learn braile. If you have had site you already understand these
>>>> things so knowing braille isn't as paramount.

>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io>
>>>> <main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io>> On Behalf Of
>>>> Victor
>>>> Sent: March 6, 2020 12:42 AM
>>>> To: main@techtalk.groups.io <mailto:main@techtalk.groups.io>
>>>> Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

>>>> Hello everyone:

>>>> I would like to point out that many blind people lose their eyesight
>>>> later in life and they find it too difficult to learn braille. It is
>>>> much easier for them to access information by listening to audio.
>>>> It’s hard enough for them to get over losing their eyesight and live
>>>> without seeing their loved ones or other things ever again. The last
>>>> thing they want is to learn a new skill that they may find just too
>>>> difficult.

>>>> After obtaining my iPhone, I attended a users group where are the
>>>> people taught each other to use iOS devices. While at the group one
>>>> day, one of the group leaders brought a focus 40 refreshable braille
>>>> display for everyone to examine. I was the only blind person in the
>>>> room interested in touching the device because I knew braille and I
>>>> owned a previous generation of that device. It was not discussed, but
>>>> I knew that they were not interested because most of them had lost
>>>> their eyesight later in life. I suspect that they found it much
>>>> easier to listen to audio than reading braille. Plus, most of them
>>>> had learned how to access information using their iPhones. I’m sure
>>>> they found it much easier to whip out their iPhones and listen to
>>>> their books, podcasts, scan documents and do everything else we can
>>>> do with our iPhones. I realize that not everyone owns a smart phone
>>>> because they have not found a way to obtain one. I also realize that
>>>> not everyone is into these types of gadgets. However, many blind
>>>> people have discovered how great these gadgets are and how useful
>>>> they can be in helping them become more independent. For many of us,
>>>> that is the route we have chosen.

>>>> In any case, don’t be too surprised if you meet a blind person who is
>>>> not interested in learning braille. Don’t be too hard on those
>>>> people. Maybe they just prefer to do what is easier.

>>>> I am so glad that refreshable braille displays exist now. I am also
>>>> glad that low cost refreshable braille displays are being developed.
>>>> I definitely don’t miss the days of carrying bulky braille books to
>>>> and from my classes. I do not miss the days of trying to look up
>>>> words in the dictionary and dealing with a whole bookshelf of braille
>>>> books. No thank you! I do not miss my five volume braille New Testament.

>>>> If I did not already on a refreshable braille display, I would
>>>> definitely look into obtaining the orbit braille reader or the
>>>> braille me.


>>>> Anyhow, these are just my rambling opinions.

>>>> Victor Sent from my iPhone

>>>>> On Mar 5, 2020, at 7:40 PM, brian <bsackrider55@...
>>>>> <mailto:bsackrider55@...>> wrote:

>>>>>  Thanks Grumpy Dave for your explination. I would be willing to
>>>>> pay a few dollars to get braille. I am not saying that I should get
>>>>> for free but not to have the option is my complaint. My local
>>>>> liberary use to provide braille for 10 cents per page. I was also
>>>>> told that if I provided the paper they would braille what I wanted.
>>>>> They required 67 weight paper which I can get at Staples. All to
>>>>> often we are forced to except only audio as the only format that is
>>>>> available. Braille will always be my prefered format because I
>>>>> prefer to read for myself instead of just listen. You say that you
>>>>> hate braille but you can use it well I feel the same about audio.
>>>>> Why do we have to be locked in to just one format? How many people
>>>>> would rather read than listen? Blind or sighted. People who prefer
>>>>> to read than should be commended instead of being kind of bashed for
>>>>> it. If not many blind people request braille than it should be no
>>>>> trouble to provide it. Braille is not that dificult to produce once
>>>>> you have the equipment. my liberary had no trouble all they needed
>>>>> was files in microsoft word and the paper and they were good to go.
>>>>> I use to get my weekly meterials for my church all in grade 2
>>>>> braille. It was really great to finally be an active participant in
>>>>> the service instead just a pasive listener. To be able to read
>>>>> along with everyone else the verses and hyms and classes lessons is
>>>>> a great feeling you just can't discribe the independence that it
>>>>> givesyou. It's kind of like having access to dvs you can finally
>>>>> know what is going on when there is all of that dead air. I was
>>>>> able to read infront of the church and be active in bible study and
>>>>> even lead the groop all using braille. I do use braille menus when
>>>>> ever possible even if I don't really need it just to let them see
>>>>> that somone is acually using it. Braille has given me a very full
>>>>> life and I don't know whear my life would be with out braille. I
>>>>> feel that every blind person who is able to read braille should
>>>>> learn it. I do understand that there are blind people who have
>>>>> medical conditions that prevents them from being able to read
>>>>> braille. For them they have no choice but to use audio but I do
>>>>> have the choice I just don't like being limited to just audio only
>>>>> and not braille. You hate braille and I hate audio. a good example
>>>>> of when I wish that I had braille instead of a file was when I
>>>>> requested my local newspaper to be accessable. my lions club
>>>>> purchassed a sara reading machine for me there was no braille manual
>>>>> but there was a print manual. I had to go to the help file on the
>>>>> machine and try to find what I wanted. When I called the paper
>>>>> office they asked what files my machine could read. If I had a
>>>>> braille manual I could have just looked it up while on the phone and
>>>>> gave them the answer. I had to call back after I went to the help
>>>>> file and found it. This is very time concuming I can look up
>>>>> somthing much faster in braille than any other format. I am not
>>>>> saying that I can do it as quick as a sighted person can with print
>>>>> but for me it's the fastest way for me to get the job done. When I
>>>>> was a kid I attended the Michigan school the blind in Lansing and we
>>>>> had to learn braille and all of our books were in braille. There
>>>>> was no I don't want to learn it you had to. I will say that I can
>>>>> certainly listen much faster than I can read but when it comes to
>>>>> looking up somthing braille is faster hands down. I have been blind
>>>>> since birth and thats all I ever knew was braille. It's like the
>>>>> sighted grew up with print. I wanted to learn the opticon at the
>>>>> rehab center but they would not let me because they said that I was
>>>>> not fast enough. I felt that I was learning and making progress and
>>>>> I should had the right to continue but they said no. If somone
>>>>> really wants to learn a new skil then they should beallowed to do
>>>>> so. If I am determind to learn somthing that then I will even
>>>>> though it might take more time then the teacher would like. I guess
>>>>> that modavation means nothing. If somone reallly wants to learn
>>>>> braille so what ifit takes several month to do so they should not be
>>>>> told no you can't continue. If companies had the equipment to
>>>>> produce braille they could charge me for the cost of the paper to
>>>>> get braille manuals or catalogs.

>>>>>> On 3/5/2020 9:26 PM, Dave wrote:
>>>>>> Hello Brian,


>>>>>> I have nothing against Braille other than the hassle it is to create
>>>>>> it, such as a Manual in Braille.


>>>>>> I've been blind for a long time now, and there were many times when I
>>>>>> would have Kissed the Feet of anyone who gave me a manual in Audio
>>>>>> format. many times have I had to just Wing it, learning by Guess and
>>>>>> by Golly. Once Computers became a Tool for the Blind, Guessing was
>>>>>> not always the best thing to do, as guessing wrong could ruin your
>>>>>> day in a Big way. Still can.


>>>>>> but, Brian, I have no Beef with Braille. To produce it is just
>>>>>> not an
>>>>>> easy task. And I would guess that most manufacturers of items for
>>>>>> the blind, may not want to hire another Staff member to do nothing
>>>>>> but print out Manuals in Braille.


>>>>>> Yes, it all sounds good, until the costs of doing such a thing is
>>>>>> considered.


>>>>>> These days, I do expect a Manual at least in a PDF format, if not an
>>>>>> Audio file. And if I own my own Braille Printer, I can then print
>>>>>> out the PDF file.


>>>>>> Although, I can't afford one of those printers, so I do without.


>>>>>> However, I could run the Audio file through an Audio to Text
>>>>>> converter, and then print that file out in Braille.


>>>>>> When I get nothing but an On Line Manual, where I need to go On Line
>>>>>> to read the thing. I am Thankful for at least that much, but I
>>>>>> always look to see if I can just download the manual so I don't need
>>>>>> to be going On Line so much.


>>>>>> Call it my personal Taste.


>>>>>> I would think most who are Blind have learned over and over again to
>>>>>> look for Work Arounds for doing many things in Life.


>>>>>> You like Braille, and while I do use it, I Hate it. So a Braille
>>>>>> Manual would be a waste of resources to send me one.


>>>>>> You Love it, and can use it well. So, when the Company doesn't send
>>>>>> a manual in Braille, but has sent you one in PDF, or even Audio, if
>>>>>> you want a manual in Braille, the Work around is to convert that
>>>>>> Audio or
>>>>>> PDF file into Braille. And if you are like me, and can't afford a
>>>>>> Braille Printer, there are Services that will take your Manual file
>>>>>> and make you a manual in Braille.


>>>>>> it may cost you a few dollars, which again is all part of the Life of
>>>>>> someone who is Blind. In the past, I have hired Readers to read
>>>>>> Manuals on Tape. Paid them $10 for every hour of Recorded material.


>>>>>> I've paid people to read my Mail. This was before smart Phones had
>>>>>> built in Cameras and OCR programs. I paid them $10 an hour too. this
>>>>>> was back in the 1980's and 90's.


>>>>>> I haven't had to hire anyone for about 20 years now


>>>>>> And Dare I bring up the Quality of Manuals? So often, regardless of
>>>>>> what Format it comes in, the information in the thing is totally Nuts!
>>>>>> It doesn't make Sense, and you can't tell if it is a Translation of
>>>>>> something in Chinese to English, or from Chinese to Spanish and then
>>>>>> Russian, and then to English etc.


>>>>>> And some manuals that come in English are so poorly written, lack
>>>>>> helpful information and seem to be missing a great deal of actual
>>>>>> instructional information and are next to useless in any format.


>>>>>> Grumpy Dave



















>> --
>> They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
>> They ask: "How Happy are You?"
>> I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"




> --
> Ann K. Parsons
> Portal Tutoring
> EMAIL: akp@... <mailto:akp@...>
> Author of The Demmies: http://www.dldbooks.com/annparsons/
> <http://www.dldbooks.com/annparsons/>
> Portal Tutoring web site: http://www.portaltutoring.info
> <http://www.portaltutoring.info>
> Skype: Putertutor

> "All that is gold does not glitter,
> Not all those who wander are lost."




>

--
Ann K. Parsons
Portal Tutoring
EMAIL:  akp@...
Author of The Demmies: http://www.dldbooks.com/annparsons/
Portal Tutoring web site:  http://www.portaltutoring.info
Skype: Putertutor

"All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost."




locked Re: warning if you doing business

Carolyn Arnold
 

I hope he does too. My sighted husband is astounded by Richard, just can't understand how he does what he does. Since he has an electronics background, he has enjoyed phone conversations with Richard.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io [mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io] On Behalf Of Evan Reese
Sent: Saturday, March 7, 2020 4:01 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

I had forgotten about the Optacon in this discussion. I am fortunate enough to be able to have two of them, so I won't have to go without if I should have to send one back to Richard Oehm for repair. I hope he lives forever!
<smile>
I use one of mine every day for something.
So I read print via touch. I don't think anyone would say that I'm not reading when I use an Optacon to find out what's on a print page just because I'm using a different sense than sight.
Conversely, I knew teachers at the blind school I went to who read braille with their eyes. I don't think anyone would say they weren't reading either, even though braille is a different set of symbols from print, even more so in the case of contracted braille.
So using my own statements to argue that I am not really reading braille is a misinterpretation or misunderstanding of what I actually said.
Evan
-----Original Message-----
From: Carolyn Arnold
Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2020 3:20 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

When I was a medical secretary in a surgical pathology office, I used my Optacon for some dictionaries, code and drug books, patient name spelling - a lot of things. But, I had some Braille reference books and my slate and stylus for some note taking and personal filing. One of the doctors said that I worked, "in two languages."

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io [mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io] On Behalf Of Ron Canazzi
Sent: Saturday, March 7, 2020 12:38 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

Hi Evan,

Well this analysis while tightly argued, is like a biblical literalist that represents a false dialectic by only examining terminologies and factoids that support their own belief structure.

One falsehood of your argument is in semantics Since the perception of reading has been from time immemorial the use of one's eyes and printed material to intake facts derived by, thought of and/or written down by others. If so, then how is it that Braille can be thought of as the exact equivalent of print when it in fact is not. Not only is it not the same as a standard 26 character alphabet, but it also uses a different sense--that of the sense of touch to extract the ideas from the materials.

In a very strict sense of the syntactical world and using at least in part, your own rigid interpretation of 'reading' actually is, then you as a Braille reader really aren't reading in the classic sense of the word either.

That's why I believe that words serve only a function of communicating basic ideas and that there must be flexibility, discourse, investigation and relatively speaking a scientific type analysis of each and every issue for true knowledge to be obtained.

Once again, if the importance of what is known as reading is that we communicate ideas, then the mechanics as to what is defined as reading should be secondary to how the ideas are being transferred.


On 3/6/2020 9:06 PM, Evan Reese wrote:


Well, I would say that listening to an audio book is not the same as reading it, either in braille or print.
To illustrate, if I tell you a story, would you say that you had read it?
No. Now, what if I write down the story and read it to you, either in person or on the phone. Would you say that you had read it? I don’t think so.
Now, suppose I make a recording of me reading the story and send it to you.
Would you say that you had read it? The only difference is that, instead of reading it to you live, I’m reading it on tape, as we used to say.
So no, listening to someone read a book is not the same thing as reading it oneself. You may still get the information, but you didn’t read it if you listened to someone else read it.
I don’t think a synthetic voice makes any difference. True, it doesn’t know what it’s saying, but you still have an intermediary between yourself and the actual text, you’re still listening to (in this case), a computer translate the actual text into words. So, even though it doesn’t comprehend what it is translating, it is still reading to you in the strictest sense.
You are not reading when using a synthetic voice.
But language changes, definitions change over time. It may happen soon that people will say that they are actually reading when they are listening to a voice, any voice, whether human or synthetic, read to them. Many people already say that, so I think we’re on the way. I don’t care all that much. I’ve done it myself, said that I read a book when I actually listened to someone else read it. I don’t make a big deal out of it. But you asked for thoughts, and that’s what I actually believe, even if I speak off-handedly about reading audio books.
Evan

From: David Goldfield <mailto:david.goldfield@...>
Sent: Friday, March 06, 2020 6:58 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business


I'd like to address this topic of literacy when talking about whether or not a person is able or not able to read Braille. I wrote a blog post about this a while ago as these were questions which I was considering and I'd like to share this post with you if you have an interest in reading it. I'm afraid that it really doesn't answer these questions and, in fact, may raise a few additional ones that some of us might not have considered. Here is the post.




Consuming Books: Reading Vs. Listening


1 <https://davidgoldfield.wordpress.com/2017/05/14/168318/#comments>

This morning I was browsing my Facebook timeline and stumbled on a post from one of my friends who posed a very interesting question. The question has to do with the wording we use to convey how we consume audio books. My friend pointed out that she’s noticing a trend, both with blind and sighted readers, where they will use the verb “listen” instead of “read”, as in “I just finished listening to that book” as opposed to “I just finished reading that book”, as if consuming a book via audio isn’t quite the same as reading it.

First, I’ll provide a bit of background into my own life as an avid reader.
I learned how to read Braille when I was around four and how to write it not much later than that. I’ve always found reading Braille to be very easy and I’ve been reading books using Braille for about as long as I can remember. I remember the enjoyment I always felt going to my school library, browsing the many shelves of Braille books and being able to check out one or two books a week, which I always read quickly. Of course, there were many books, known as talking books, which were recorded on cassettes’ as well as on phonograph records. Talking books have been available for blind and visually impaired consumers to borrow since the 1930s, way before audio books became popular with sighted consumers. While I never hesitated to borrow a book on tape from my library, Braille was always my preferred medium and, when given a choice between Braille and audio, Braille was always what I chose.

As I’ve embraced new technologies the way I consume books has also changed.
Nearly all of the books which I consume are done so audibly and not in Braille. There are several reasons for this and they don’t apply to all readers who are blind. First, most of the books which I want to read are just not available in Braille. While the National Library Service <http://www.loc.gov/nls> produces many Braille books there are simply more titles available in an audio format. Even then the amount of books produced by NLS, while I greatly appreciate the work that they do, is a drop in the bucket compared to the amount of titles available from other suppliers.
Bookshare <http://www.bookshare.org/> , another specialized library for people with print disabilities, offers over half a million books and that number continues to increase. Learning Ally <http://www.learningally.org/> is another specialized library which I’ve used for over 35 years, offers around 80,000 human-narrated titles. Of course, mainstream book suppliers such as the Kindle store offer millions of books, with more constantly being added. These specialized and mainstream suppliers offer a much greater selection of books than what I am able to borrow from my local NLS affiliate.

Some readers will no doubt want to remind me of the fact that we do have Braille display technology, which will work both with my computer as well as with my phone. This is certainly true and a Braille display would certainly allow me to read books from any of these suppliers using the same Braille code that I enjoyed using with books printed on paper. However, there are reasons which, for me, make this an impractical solution.

First, Braille display technology, while readily available for many devices, is often costly. As an example, Freedom Scientific’s most inexpensive Braille display, the Focus 14 Blue, costs $1295.00. At this time spending over a thousand dollars for a Braille display is just not something which I could easily do, considering it’s a device that I don’t truly need. However, even if a Braille display magically dropped onto my desk the fact is that I do a lot of reading either on the train or lying in bed. Reading with a Braille display on a moving train, no matter how portable, is just too awkward. When I’m lying in bed and wanted to read a book it’s just so much easier to do this with a small phone and would prove to be a bit less convenient if I added even a 14-cell display.

Anyway, back to the topic. My friend was pointing out that she has noticed that many people say they’ve listened to a book as opposed to reading it if the book was consumed in an audio medium, such as an audio CD or listening to it with synthetic speech using the Kindle app. However, this also makes me think of how we often use the word “read” when we actually have listened to the book.

This raises some interesting questions. When it comes to books, is it fair to consider it reading regardless of how it’s consumed? There are probably some sighted people who feel that the only way to truly read a book is to do so by processing the printed material visually. Of course, as blind people we know this is certainly not the case. All of us would agree that processing the information with our fingers would just as validly be considered reading as processing the information with our eyes and, in that instance, there is no controversy. However, the wording sometimes changes when we shift from print on a page to either a human narrator or a synthetic voice coming from a pair of speakers or from our portable phones and tablets. If I consumed a book by listening to it with an app such as Voice Dream Reader, am I wrong to say that I’ve read the book? Most blind people would say that I’m not and I would tend to agree with them.

However, let’s say we have an individual who is blind who never learned how to read Braille. There are some valid reasons for why they might not have been taught how to read and write in Braille, such as having neuropathy in their fingers which would prevent them from being able to distinguish the dot patterns. In such a case, this blind individual would only be able to consume books in an audible format. Considering this, would we look at that blind person who didn’t know Braille and conclude, if only to ourselves, that this person was illiterate. We might not say that to their face in the course of normal conversation but do we consider a blind person who doesn’t know Braille to be illiterate? If the answer to that question is yes then can we say that this blind person, not knowing Braille, has “read” a book when it was consumed by listening. If we say no, then why is it acceptable for me to say that I’ve read a book and my hypothetical blind person could not say that, just because I can read Braille and he cannot.

Let’s take this a step further and consider a fully sighted person who, for one reason or another, never learned how to read print. There’s no doubt that we would conclude that this person would be considered illiterate.
Saying so is not meant as an insult but, in this case, is indisputable; someone who can’t read is illiterate. My hypothetical blind person might not have the ability to learn Braille and the sighted person could, with proper training, learn how to read print but, until that individual chooses to take classes in how to read, we would all agree that he’s illiterate. Given that fact, would we tend to disagree with the illiterate sighted person if he told us that he “read” a particular book by consuming it in an audible medium? Wouldn’t we think, “No, you didn’t really read that book, you listened to it.” If this is the case, then why is it OK for me, as a blind person who knows Braille, to tell people that I may have read the same book by consuming it in the exact same way but yet fewer people would think of challenging my word choices.

Admittedly, this isn’t the most important topic which should concern us. I don’t think about it all that much and it certainly doesn’t keep me up at night. However, I think these issues are important as it has really forced me to think about what we mean when we speak of what it means to be literate.



As an aside, the person who brought up this topic is one of the proprietors of Speeddots, <http://speeddots.com/> which sells various tactile screen protectors for your Apple iDevice. They also sell various Bluetooth accessories as well as rugged lightning cables with a life-time warranty.

So, how do you feel about this? For you, does listening to an audio book qualify as reading it? I’d love to hear your thoughts in the comments.

David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist JAWS Certified, 2019

WWW.DavidGoldfield.org <http://WWW.DavidGoldfield.org> On 3/6/2020 6:21 PM, Ron Canazzi wrote:


Now Brian,

I don't want to personalize this, but you say you're a good Braille reader now: correct? You say that people who use audio primarily aren't truly literate and you can tell by the way they write e-mails: is that what you're saying? Well let me be your teacher and quote and correct your own mistakes that you have made in your lengthy reply.

<spelling error> aAmen(I guess you are trying to say Amen to that or
something similar--note the repetition of the first letter A.)

<grammatical clumsiness> if you don't braille than you are not truly literate. (I guess you mean: if you don't know/use/are competent in, Braille then you are not truly literate.)

<run on sentence> If you doubt this then read emails from blind people who don't know braille there spelling and (There should be a period after the word Braille.)

<spelling error> gramar and punctuation leave alot to be desired. (In this sentence grammar and a lot are misspelled.)

<run on sentence> I have been there myself if I don't read then I to will fall in to trap as well. (There should be a period after the word myself.)

If you truly want to be literate then you just have <spelling error> toread and not just listen to audio. (there is a run on word toread that should be separated into 'to read.') Those of us who do prefer braille and would rather read than listen have only audio as the option all to often. For me if I want to stay literate then I have to read braille and as I said in my email to Grumpy Dave I can't <spelling error> amagine my life with out braille. (I guess you mean 'imagine my life without Braille.)

<wrong use of the word loose> I have had braille most of my life and I would loose independence (I guess you mean lose independence.)

<spelling error> ifI were to not know braille. (You ran the words If and I
together.)

Reading braille is active reading but listening to audio or computer speech is just passive reading.

I prefer to <spelling error> activly read but most of the time I can't because it's audio only. (You misspelled actively.)

<spelling errors and a run on sentence> I do rember haveing to cary volumes of braille books acrost campus at the blind school but I never gave it a
though it was just what I hav to do it was no problem for me at all. (You
misspelled remember, having, across and probably mean the word had when you wrote hav. And I almost forgot, you used the word though instead of
thought.) (There should be a period after the word thought.)

The campus at the Michigan school for the blind in Lansing Michigan covered a 4 city block area. I tried college back in 1987-1988 and I could have <spelling error> donee much better if I had braille. (You misspelled the word done.)

<spelling errors> I had tapes from recording forthe blind but I had issues
with the readers with pronouncations. (you ran the words for and the
together. You misspelled pronunciation.)

I remember taking test and what I heard during the test sounded nothing like what I heard on the tapes.

If I would have had my books in braille I would have known the correct words and the tests would have made <spelling error> sinse. (You misspelled the word sense.)

<spelling error> If yur going to read on tape then you must be able to speak
properly and say your words properly. (You misspelled the word you're--or
at least I think that's what you meant by writing the word yur.)

<grammatical oddity> There was the issue of only tape at a time and having to send 2 copies of every book to recording for the blind to be recorded.
(I'm not quite sure, but I think you meant 'only one tape at a time.)

<spelling error> Audio is usless if I don't know what you are saying. (You misspelled useless.)

This is why we need braille. Braille readers don't make a big deal of how many volumes a book is it just is.


LONG STORY SHORT: BRIAN, YOU ARE A POOR EXAMPLE OF THE IDEA THAT BRAILLE
READERS WRITE COHERENT AND GRAMATICALLY CORRECT E-MAIL MESSAGES.
On 3/6/2020 3:01 PM, brian wrote:


aAmen if you don't braille than you are not truly literate. If you doubt
this then read emails from blind people who don't know braille there
spelling and gramar and punctuation leave alot to be desired. I have been
there myself if I don't read then I to will fall in to trap as well. If you
truly want to be literate then you just have toread and not just listen to
audio. Those of us who do prefer braille and would rather read than listen
have only audio as the option all to often. For me if I want to stay
literate then I have to read braille and as I said in my email to Grumpy
Dave I can't amagine my life with out braille. I have had braille most of
my life and I would loose independence ifI were to not know braille.
Reading braille is active reading but listening to audio or computer speech
is just passive reading. I prefer to activly read but most of the time I
can't because it's audio only. I do rember haveing to cary volumes of
braille books acrost campus at the blind school but I never gave it a though
it was just what I hav to do it was no problem for me at all. The campus at
the Michigan school for the blind in Lansing Michigan covered a 4 city block
area. I tried college back in 1987-1988 and I could have donee much better
if I had braille. I had tapes from recording forthe blind but I had issues
with the readers with pronouncations. I remember taking test and what I
heard during the test sounded nothing like what I heard on the tapes. If I
would have had my books in braille I would have known the correct words and
the tests would have made sinse. If yur going to read on tape then you must
be able to speak properly and say your words properly. There was the issue
of only tape at a time and having to send 2 copies of every book to
recording for the blind to be recorded. Audio is usless if I don't know
what you are saying. This is why we need braille. Braille readers don't
make a big deal of how many volumes a book is it just is.

Brian Sackrider

On 3/6/2020 7:26 AM, chris judge wrote:


This is true. There is a huge difference between not learning braille if
you've lost your site later in life. The unfortunate fact is that even
people who are blind since birth are not learning braille at the rate they
were when I was a kid 50 years ago. If you are blind since birth and you
don't learn braille you miss out on basic literacy. How do you learn proper
spelling, grammar, punctuation and such if you don't learn braile. If you
have had site you already understand these things so knowing braille isn't
as paramount.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io>
mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io On Behalf Of Victor
Sent: March 6, 2020 12:42 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io <mailto:main@techtalk.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

Hello everyone:

I would like to point out that many blind people lose their eyesight later
in life and they find it too difficult to learn braille. It is much easier
for them to access information by listening to audio. It’s hard enough for
them to get over losing their eyesight and live without seeing their loved
ones or other things ever again. The last thing they want is to learn a new
skill that they may find just too difficult.

After obtaining my iPhone, I attended a users group where are the people
taught each other to use iOS devices. While at the group one day, one of the
group leaders brought a focus 40 refreshable braille display for everyone to
examine. I was the only blind person in the room interested in touching the
device because I knew braille and I owned a previous generation of that
device. It was not discussed, but I knew that they were not interested
because most of them had lost their eyesight later in life. I suspect that
they found it much easier to listen to audio than reading braille. Plus,
most of them had learned how to access information using their iPhones. I’m
sure they found it much easier to whip out their iPhones and listen to their
books, podcasts, scan documents and do everything else we can do with our
iPhones. I realize that not everyone owns a smart phone because they have
not found a way to obtain one. I also realize that not everyone is into
these types of gadgets. However, many blind people have discovered how great
these gadgets are and how useful they can be in helping them become more
independent. For many of us, that is the route we have chosen.

In any case, don’t be too surprised if you meet a blind person who is not
interested in learning braille. Don’t be too hard on those people. Maybe
they just prefer to do what is easier.

I am so glad that refreshable braille displays exist now. I am also glad
that low cost refreshable braille displays are being developed. I definitely
don’t miss the days of carrying bulky braille books to and from my classes.
I do not miss the days of trying to look up words in the dictionary and
dealing with a whole bookshelf of braille books. No thank you! I do not miss
my five volume braille New Testament.

If I did not already on a refreshable braille display, I would definitely
look into obtaining the orbit braille reader or the braille me.


Anyhow, these are just my rambling opinions.

Victor Sent from my iPhone



On Mar 5, 2020, at 7:40 PM, brian mailto:bsackrider55@... wrote:

 Thanks Grumpy Dave for your explination. I would be willing to pay a
few dollars to get braille. I am not saying that I should get for free but
not to have the option is my complaint. My local liberary use to provide
braille for 10 cents per page. I was also told that if I provided the
paper they would braille what I wanted. They required 67 weight paper which
I can get at Staples. All to often we are forced to except only audio as
the only format that is available. Braille will always be my prefered format
because I prefer to read for myself instead of just listen. You say that
you hate braille but you can use it well I feel the same about audio. Why do
we have to be locked in to just one format? How many people would rather
read than listen? Blind or sighted. People who prefer to read than should
be commended instead of being kind of bashed for it. If not many blind
people request braille than it should be no trouble to provide it. Braille
is not that dificult to produce once you have the equipment. my liberary
had no trouble all they needed was files in microsoft word and the paper and
they were good to go. I use to get my weekly meterials for my church all in
grade 2 braille. It was really great to finally be an active participant in
the service instead just a pasive listener. To be able to read along with
everyone else the verses and hyms and classes lessons is a great feeling you
just can't discribe the independence that it givesyou. It's kind of like
having access to dvs you can finally know what is going on when there is all
of that dead air. I was able to read infront of the church and be active in
bible study and even lead the groop all using braille. I do use braille
menus when ever possible even if I don't really need it just to let them see
that somone is acually using it. Braille has given me a very full life and
I don't know whear my life would be with out braille. I feel that every
blind person who is able to read braille should learn it. I do understand
that there are blind people who have medical conditions that prevents them
from being able to read braille. For them they have no choice but to use
audio but I do have the choice I just don't like being limited to just audio
only and not braille. You hate braille and I hate audio. a good example of
when I wish that I had braille instead of a file was when I requested my
local newspaper to be accessable. my lions club purchassed a sara reading
machine for me there was no braille manual but there was a print manual. I
had to go to the help file on the machine and try to find what I wanted.
When I called the paper office they asked what files my machine could read.
If I had a braille manual I could have just looked it up while on the phone
and gave them the answer. I had to call back after I went to the help file
and found it. This is very time concuming I can look up somthing much
faster in braille than any other format. I am not saying that I can do it
as quick as a sighted person can with print but for me it's the fastest way
for me to get the job done. When I was a kid I attended the Michigan school
the blind in Lansing and we had to learn braille and all of our books were
in braille. There was no I don't want to learn it you had to. I will say
that I can certainly listen much faster than I can read but when it comes to
looking up somthing braille is faster hands down. I have been blind since
birth and thats all I ever knew was braille. It's like the sighted grew up
with print. I wanted to learn the opticon at the rehab center but they
would not let me because they said that I was not fast enough. I felt that
I was learning and making progress and I should had the right to continue
but they said no. If somone really wants to learn a new skil then they
should beallowed to do so. If I am determind to learn somthing that then I
will even though it might take more time then the teacher would like. I
guess that modavation means nothing. If somone reallly wants to learn
braille so what ifit takes several month to do so they should not be told no
you can't continue. If companies had the equipment to produce braille they
could charge me for the cost of the paper to get braille manuals or
catalogs.



On 3/5/2020 9:26 PM, Dave wrote:
Hello Brian,


I have nothing against Braille other than the hassle it is to create
it, such as a Manual in Braille.


I've been blind for a long time now, and there were many times when I
would have Kissed the Feet of anyone who gave me a manual in Audio
format. many times have I had to just Wing it, learning by Guess and
by Golly. Once Computers became a Tool for the Blind, Guessing was
not always the best thing to do, as guessing wrong could ruin your
day in a Big way. Still can.


but, Brian, I have no Beef with Braille. To produce it is just not an
easy task. And I would guess that most manufacturers of items for
the blind, may not want to hire another Staff member to do nothing
but print out Manuals in Braille.


Yes, it all sounds good, until the costs of doing such a thing is
considered.


These days, I do expect a Manual at least in a PDF format, if not an
Audio file. And if I own my own Braille Printer, I can then print
out the PDF file.


Although, I can't afford one of those printers, so I do without.


However, I could run the Audio file through an Audio to Text
converter, and then print that file out in Braille.


When I get nothing but an On Line Manual, where I need to go On Line
to read the thing. I am Thankful for at least that much, but I
always look to see if I can just download the manual so I don't need
to be going On Line so much.


Call it my personal Taste.


I would think most who are Blind have learned over and over again to
look for Work Arounds for doing many things in Life.


You like Braille, and while I do use it, I Hate it. So a Braille
Manual would be a waste of resources to send me one.


You Love it, and can use it well. So, when the Company doesn't send
a manual in Braille, but has sent you one in PDF, or even Audio, if
you want a manual in Braille, the Work around is to convert that Audio or
PDF file into Braille. And if you are like me, and can't afford a
Braille Printer, there are Services that will take your Manual file
and make you a manual in Braille.


it may cost you a few dollars, which again is all part of the Life of
someone who is Blind. In the past, I have hired Readers to read
Manuals on Tape. Paid them $10 for every hour of Recorded material.


I've paid people to read my Mail. This was before smart Phones had
built in Cameras and OCR programs. I paid them $10 an hour too. this
was back in the 1980's and 90's.


I haven't had to hire anyone for about 20 years now


And Dare I bring up the Quality of Manuals? So often, regardless of
what Format it comes in, the information in the thing is totally Nuts!
It doesn't make Sense, and you can't tell if it is a Translation of
something in Chinese to English, or from Chinese to Spanish and then
Russian, and then to English etc.


And some manuals that come in English are so poorly written, lack
helpful information and seem to be missing a great deal of actual
instructional information and are next to useless in any format.


Grumpy Dave






















--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


locked Re: warning if you doing business

brian
 

I am glad that some of you got to learn the opaton I was not so lucky.  It would be like reading braille in that you are reading how words are spelled.  When I was at the rehab center I wanted to learn it but I was told that I was not learning fast enough.  This has been my experience even in school that if I did want to learn a new skill I was told no.  Teachers don't want to teach.  When somone does want to learn but teachers refuse to them thats a big problem.  I have always that I did need to learn new skills becausing the ways that they were teaching me did not work.  When it came to learning math they only tought the abacus and that is not real math.  my teacher told that it does not teach math concepts and it is not the way that math is done by every else.  He told me that sighted peopleadd from right to left but it is left to right on the abacus.  The only thing that the blind school tough well was braille.  At the rehab center I wanted to learn how to use the gas stove and eletronic mobility devices but I was told no.  I also told them that I need to learn how to travel in areas with out sidewalks because that was my town was like at the time.  I have always that I have had alot of deficenties in my education and in other skills but i always got told no you can't learn that.  Thats the story of my life teachers that don't care to teach me the things that I need to know.  They didn't care if I learned anything or not.  We don't all learn the same but they just can't understand that.  What works for you may not work for me.  I don't understand why teachers don't want to teach somone who does want to learn.  It would be one thing if they did try to teach me and I did not want to learn but that was not the case.  Both the blind school and the rehab center were a big joke a total waist of my time I did not learn very much as I should have.  I think that reason that I am so highly opinionated about braille is that was the whole focus of blind school.  We had to read and write in braille and everything that we needed to read was in braille.  We had to read braille and not listen to audio books it was all braille and noaudio at all.  I atended the Michigan school from age 5 to age 21 and I have been totally blind from birth.  All of our text books were inbraille as well as books for book reports.  They could be about almost anything except romance books.  We were strongly encouraged to read for pleasure not just for our school work.  They toughtto highly braille over audio.  We were encouraged to read braille and not just listen to tapes.  If you were totally blind then braille was what you had to read not learning it was not an option. If you did not want to do your work in school then you would have to stay after school until you did even if itmeant missing your next meal.  The importance of braille was always stressed and that is so neccessary for your independence.  You can read whear and when ever you want.  You can write down what ever you wantto or need to read later.  You can play games with sighted people read just for fun and school or work.  I have said how braille let me be more active in church with out braille I would not have had that.  I will never understand how blind people can say that they don't want to learn braille. Perhaps it's because they did not atend a blind school like I did for most of my life.  Braille has given me a much fuller life than I would have ever had with out it.  I would never want to have audio as my only option and all of this high tenology can and does fail and it's often very expensive.  If you lived in a totaly braille world for most of  your life but it's an almost brailleless world than you might understand whear I am coming from.  We now live in an almost brailleless world but if I had my choice we would have just as much braille as the sighted have had print.  This would be the ideal world for me this would be just perfect.  There would be only braille and no other formats.  There would be no need for any audio or computer speech because everything would be in braille just like at school.  Braille will always be the very best thing that has ever been invented for the blind nothing elsewill ever compear to  it or be as good as it is.  Nothing will or can ever replace paper braille not now and not ever.  No audio or any technology we don't need any of it we need only braille paper only.  The only thing that wouldeven come close would be if we could all have optacons and have teachers that would teach us how to read print that would be exceptabl.  If we had optacons we could read anything that is not in braille.  We would still be reading with our fingers and not with our ears. The optacon would be a close second to braille.  as you know by now I will always prefer toread with my fingers and not my ears. I have to listen rather than read because thats all there is that might be your preferance but it's not mine. We should all have the right to the format of our choice and not be forced to one thats not.

Brian Sackrider

On 3/7/2020 4:00 PM, Evan Reese wrote:
I had forgotten about the Optacon in this discussion. I am fortunate enough to be able to have two of them, so I won't have to go without if I should have to send one back to Richard Oehm for repair. I hope he lives forever! <smile>
I use one of mine every day for something.
So I read print via touch. I don't think anyone would say that I'm not reading when I use an Optacon to find out what's on a print page just because I'm using a different sense than sight.
Conversely, I knew teachers at the blind school I went to who read braille with their eyes. I don't think anyone would say they weren't reading either, even though braille is a different set of symbols from print, even more so in the case of contracted braille.
So using my own statements to argue that I am not really reading braille is a misinterpretation or misunderstanding of what I actually said.
Evan
-----Original Message----- From: Carolyn Arnold
Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2020 3:20 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

When I was a medical secretary in a surgical pathology office, I used my Optacon for some dictionaries, code and drug books, patient name spelling - a lot of things. But, I had some Braille reference books and my slate and stylus for some note taking and personal filing. One of the doctors said that I worked, "in two languages."

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io [mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io] On Behalf Of Ron Canazzi
Sent: Saturday, March 7, 2020 12:38 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

Hi Evan,

Well this analysis while tightly argued, is like a biblical literalist that represents a false dialectic by only examining terminologies and factoids that support their own belief structure.

One falsehood of your argument is in semantics Since the perception of reading has been from time immemorial the use of one's eyes and printed material to intake facts derived by, thought of and/or written down by others. If so, then how is it that Braille can be thought of as the exact equivalent of print when it in fact is not.  Not only is it not the same as a standard 26 character alphabet, but it also uses a different sense--that of the sense of touch to extract the ideas from the materials.

In a very strict sense of the syntactical world and using at least in part, your own rigid interpretation of 'reading' actually is, then you as a Braille reader really aren't reading in the classic sense of the word either.

That's why I believe that words serve only a function of communicating basic ideas and that there must be flexibility, discourse, investigation and relatively speaking a scientific type analysis of each and every issue for true knowledge to be obtained.

Once again, if the importance of what is known as reading is that we communicate ideas, then the mechanics as to what is defined as reading should be secondary to how the ideas are being transferred.


On 3/6/2020 9:06 PM, Evan Reese wrote:


Well, I would say that listening to an audio book is not the same as reading it, either in braille or print.
To illustrate, if I tell you a story, would you say that you had read it? No. Now, what if I write down the story and read it to you, either in person or on the phone. Would you say that you had read it? I don’t think so.
Now, suppose I make a recording of me reading the story and send it to you. Would you say that you had read it? The only difference is that, instead of reading it to you live, I’m reading it on tape, as we used to say.
So no, listening to someone read a book is not the same thing as reading it oneself. You may still get the information, but you didn’t read it if you listened to someone else read it.
I don’t think a synthetic voice makes any difference. True, it doesn’t know what it’s saying, but you still have an intermediary between yourself and the actual text, you’re still listening to (in this case), a computer translate the actual text into words. So, even though it doesn’t comprehend what it is translating, it is still reading to you in the strictest sense. You are not reading when using a synthetic voice.
But language changes, definitions change over time. It may happen soon that people will say that they are actually reading when they are listening to a voice, any voice, whether human or synthetic, read to them. Many people already say that, so I think we’re on the way. I don’t care all that much. I’ve done it myself, said that I read a book when I actually listened to someone else read it. I don’t make a big deal out of it. But you asked for thoughts, and that’s what I actually believe, even if I speak off-handedly about reading audio books.
Evan

From: David Goldfield <mailto:david.goldfield@...>
Sent: Friday, March 06, 2020 6:58 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business


I'd like to address this topic of literacy when talking about whether or not a person is able or not able to read Braille. I wrote a blog post about this a while ago as these were questions which I was considering and I'd like to share this post with you if you have an interest in reading it. I'm afraid that it really doesn't answer these questions and, in fact, may raise a few additional ones that some of us might not have considered. Here is the post.




Consuming Books: Reading Vs. Listening


1 <https://davidgoldfield.wordpress.com/2017/05/14/168318/#comments>

This morning I was browsing my Facebook timeline and stumbled on a post from one of my friends who posed a very interesting question. The question has to do with the wording we use to convey how we consume audio books. My friend pointed out that she’s noticing a trend, both with blind and sighted readers, where they will use the verb “listen” instead of “read”, as in “I just finished listening to that book” as opposed to “I just finished reading that book”, as if consuming a book via audio isn’t quite the same as reading it.

First, I’ll provide a bit of background into my own life as an avid reader. I learned how to read Braille when I was around four and how to write it not much later than that. I’ve always found reading Braille to be very easy and I’ve been reading books using Braille for about as long as I can remember. I remember the enjoyment I always felt going to my school library, browsing the many shelves of Braille books and being able to check out one or two books a week, which I always read quickly. Of course, there were many books, known as talking books, which were recorded on cassettes’ as well as on phonograph records. Talking books have been available for blind and visually impaired consumers to borrow since the 1930s, way before audio books became popular with sighted consumers. While I never hesitated to borrow a book on tape from my library, Braille was always my preferred medium and, when given a choice between Braille and audio, Braille was always what I chose.

As I’ve embraced new technologies the way I consume books has also changed. Nearly all of the books which I consume are done so audibly and not in Braille. There are several reasons for this and they don’t apply to all readers who are blind. First, most of the books which I want to read are just not available in Braille. While the National Library Service <http://www.loc.gov/nls> produces many Braille books there are simply more titles available in an audio format. Even then the amount of books produced by NLS, while I greatly appreciate the work that they do, is a drop in the bucket compared to the amount of titles available from other suppliers. Bookshare <http://www.bookshare.org/> , another specialized library for people with print disabilities, offers over half a million books and that number continues to increase. Learning Ally <http://www.learningally.org/> is another specialized library which I’ve used for over 35 years, offers around 80,000 human-narrated titles. Of course, mainstream book suppliers such as the Kindle store offer millions of books, with more constantly being added. These specialized and mainstream suppliers offer a much greater selection of books than what I am able to borrow from my local NLS affiliate.

Some readers will no doubt want to remind me of the fact that we do have Braille display technology, which will work both with my computer as well as with my phone. This is certainly true and a Braille display would certainly allow me to read books from any of these suppliers using the same Braille code that I enjoyed using with books printed on paper. However, there are reasons which, for me, make this an impractical solution.

First, Braille display technology, while readily available for many devices, is often costly. As an example, Freedom Scientific’s most inexpensive Braille display, the Focus 14 Blue, costs $1295.00. At this time spending over a thousand dollars for a Braille display is just not something which I could easily do, considering it’s a device that I don’t truly need. However, even if a Braille display magically dropped onto my desk the fact is that I do a lot of reading either on the train or lying in bed. Reading with a Braille display on a moving train, no matter how portable, is just too awkward. When I’m lying in bed and wanted to read a book it’s just so much easier to do this with a small phone and would prove to be a bit less convenient if I added even a 14-cell display.

Anyway, back to the topic. My friend was pointing out that she has noticed that many people say they’ve listened to a book as opposed to reading it if the book was consumed in an audio medium, such as an audio CD or listening to it with synthetic speech using the Kindle app. However, this also makes me think of how we often use the word “read” when we actually have listened to the book.

This raises some interesting questions. When it comes to books, is it fair to consider it reading regardless of how it’s consumed? There are probably some sighted people who feel that the only way to truly read a book is to do so by processing the printed material visually. Of course, as blind people we know this is certainly not the case. All of us would agree that processing the information with our fingers would just as validly be considered reading as processing the information with our eyes and, in that instance, there is no controversy. However, the wording sometimes changes when we shift from print on a page to either a human narrator or a synthetic voice coming from a pair of speakers or from our portable phones and tablets. If I consumed a book by listening to it with an app such as Voice Dream Reader, am I wrong to say that I’ve read the book? Most blind people would say that I’m not and I would tend to agree with them.

However, let’s say we have an individual who is blind who never learned how to read Braille. There are some valid reasons for why they might not have been taught how to read and write in Braille, such as having neuropathy in their fingers which would prevent them from being able to distinguish the dot patterns. In such a case, this blind individual would only be able to consume books in an audible format. Considering this, would we look at that blind person who didn’t know Braille and conclude, if only to ourselves, that this person was illiterate. We might not say that to their face in the course of normal conversation but do we consider a blind person who doesn’t know Braille to be illiterate? If the answer to that question is yes then can we say that this blind person, not knowing Braille, has “read” a book when it was consumed by listening. If we say no, then why is it acceptable for me to say that I’ve read a book and my hypothetical blind person could not say that, just because I can read Braille and he cannot.

Let’s take this a step further and consider a fully sighted person who, for one reason or another, never learned how to read print. There’s no doubt that we would conclude that this person would be considered illiterate. Saying so is not meant as an insult but, in this case, is indisputable; someone who can’t read is illiterate. My hypothetical blind person might not have the ability to learn Braille and the sighted person could, with proper training, learn how to read print but, until that individual chooses to take classes in how to read, we would all agree that he’s illiterate. Given that fact, would we tend to disagree with the illiterate sighted person if he told us that he “read” a particular book by consuming it in an audible medium? Wouldn’t we think, “No, you didn’t really read that book, you listened to it.” If this is the case, then why is it OK for me, as a blind person who knows Braille, to tell people that I may have read the same book by consuming it in the exact same way but yet fewer people would think of challenging my word choices.

Admittedly, this isn’t the most important topic which should concern us. I don’t think about it all that much and it certainly doesn’t keep me up at night. However, I think these issues are important as it has really forced me to think about what we mean when we speak of what it means to be literate.



As an aside, the person who brought up this topic is one of the proprietors of Speeddots,  <http://speeddots.com/> which sells various tactile screen protectors for your Apple iDevice. They also sell various Bluetooth accessories as well as rugged lightning cables with a life-time warranty.

So, how do you feel about this? For you, does listening to an audio book qualify as reading it? I’d love to hear your thoughts in the comments.

David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist
JAWS Certified, 2019

WWW.DavidGoldfield.org <http://WWW.DavidGoldfield.org>
On 3/6/2020 6:21 PM, Ron Canazzi wrote:


Now Brian,

I don't want to personalize this, but you say you're a good
Braille reader now: correct?  You say that people who use audio primarily aren't truly literate and you can tell by the way they write e-mails: is that what you're saying?  Well let me be your teacher and quote and correct your own mistakes that you have made in your lengthy reply.

<spelling error>    aAmen(I guess you are trying to say Amen to that or something similar--note the repetition of the first letter A.)

<grammatical clumsiness> if you don't braille than you are not truly literate. (I guess you mean: if you don't know/use/are competent in, Braille then you are not truly literate.)

<run on sentence> If you doubt this then read emails from blind people who don't know braille there spelling and (There should be a period after the word Braille.)

<spelling error> gramar and punctuation leave alot to be desired.  (In this sentence grammar and a lot are misspelled.)

<run on sentence> I have been there myself if I don't read then I to will fall in to trap as well.  (There should be a period after the word myself.)

If you truly want to be literate then you just have
<spelling error> toread and not just listen to audio. (there is a run on word toread that should be separated into 'to read.')
Those of us who  do prefer braille and would rather read than listen have only audio as the option all to often. For me if I want to stay literate then I have to read braille and as I said in my email to Grumpy Dave I can't
<spelling error> amagine my life with out braille.  (I guess you mean 'imagine my life without Braille.)

<wrong use of the word loose> I have had braille most of my life and I would loose independence (I guess you mean lose independence.)

<spelling error> ifI were to not know braille.   (You ran the words If and I together.)

Reading braille is active reading but listening to audio or computer speech is just passive reading.

I prefer to <spelling error> activly read but most of the time I can't because it's audio only.  (You misspelled actively.)

<spelling errors and a run on sentence> I do rember haveing to cary volumes of braille books acrost campus at the blind school but I never gave it a though it was just what I hav to do it was no problem for me at all.   (You misspelled remember, having, across and probably mean the word had when you wrote hav. And I almost forgot, you used the word though instead of thought.) (There should be a period after the word thought.)

The campus at the Michigan school for the blind in Lansing Michigan covered a 4 city block area.  I tried college back in 1987-1988 and I could have
<spelling error> donee much better if I had braille.  (You misspelled the word done.)

<spelling errors> I had tapes from recording forthe blind but I had issues with the readers with pronouncations.   (you ran the words for and the together.  You misspelled pronunciation.)

I remember taking test and what I heard during the test sounded nothing like what I heard on the tapes.

If I would have had my books in braille I would have known the correct words and the tests would have made <spelling error> sinse.  (You misspelled the word sense.)

<spelling error> If yur going to read on tape then you must be able to speak properly and say your words properly.   (You misspelled the word you're--or at least I think that's what you meant by writing the word yur.)

<grammatical oddity> There was the issue of only tape at a time and having to send 2 copies of every book to recording for the blind to be recorded. (I'm not quite sure, but I think you meant 'only one tape at a time.)

<spelling error> Audio is usless if I don't know what you are saying. (You misspelled useless.)

This is why we need braille.  Braille readers don't make a big deal of how many volumes a book is it just is.


LONG STORY SHORT: BRIAN, YOU ARE A POOR EXAMPLE OF THE IDEA THAT BRAILLE READERS WRITE COHERENT AND GRAMATICALLY CORRECT E-MAIL MESSAGES.
On 3/6/2020 3:01 PM, brian wrote:


aAmen if you don't braille than you are not truly literate. If you doubt this then read emails from blind people who don't know braille there spelling and gramar and punctuation leave alot to be desired.  I have been there myself if I don't read then I to will fall in to trap as well.  If you truly want to be literate then you just have toread and not just listen to audio.  Those of us who  do prefer braille and would rather read than listen have only audio as the option all to often. For me if I want to stay literate then I have to read braille and as I said in my email to Grumpy Dave I can't amagine my life with out braille.  I have had braille most of my life and I would loose independence ifI were to not know braille. Reading braille is active reading but listening to audio or computer speech is just passive reading.  I prefer to activly read but most of the time I can't because it's audio only.  I do rember haveing to cary volumes of braille books acrost campus at the blind school but I never gave it a though it was just what I hav to do it was no problem for me at all.  The campus at the Michigan school for the blind in Lansing Michigan covered a 4 city block area.  I tried college back in 1987-1988 and I could have donee much better if I had braille.  I had tapes from recording forthe blind but I had issues with the readers with pronouncations.  I remember taking test and what I heard during the test sounded nothing like what I heard on the tapes.  If I would have had my books in braille I would have known the correct words and the tests would have made sinse.  If yur going to read on tape then you must be able to speak properly and say your words properly.  There was the issue of only tape at a time and having to send 2 copies of every book to recording for the blind to be recorded.  Audio is usless if I don't know what you are saying. This is why we need braille.  Braille readers don't make a big deal of how many volumes a book is it just is.

Brian Sackrider

On 3/6/2020 7:26 AM, chris judge wrote:


This is true. There is a huge difference between not learning braille if you've lost your site later in life. The unfortunate fact is that even people who are blind since birth are not learning braille at the rate they were when I was a kid 50 years ago. If you are blind since birth and you don't learn braille you miss out on basic literacy. How do you learn proper spelling, grammar, punctuation and such if you don't learn braile. If you have had site you already understand these things so knowing braille isn't as paramount.

-----Original Message----- From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io> mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io On Behalf Of Victor
Sent: March 6, 2020 12:42 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io <mailto:main@techtalk.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

Hello everyone:

I would like to point out that many blind people lose their eyesight later in life and they find it too difficult to learn braille. It is much easier for them to access information by listening to audio. It’s hard enough for them to get over losing their eyesight and live without seeing their loved ones or other things ever again. The last thing they want is to learn a new skill that they may find just too difficult.

After obtaining my iPhone, I attended a users group where are the people taught each other to use iOS devices. While at the group one day, one of the group leaders brought a focus 40 refreshable braille display for everyone to examine. I was the only blind person in the room interested in touching the device because I knew braille and I owned a previous generation of that device. It was not discussed, but I knew that they were not interested because most of them had lost their eyesight later in life. I suspect that they found it much easier to listen to audio than reading braille. Plus, most of them had learned how to access information using their iPhones. I’m sure they found it much easier to whip out their iPhones and listen to their books, podcasts, scan documents and do everything else we can do with our iPhones. I realize that not everyone owns a smart phone because they have not found a way to obtain one. I also realize that not everyone is into these types of gadgets. However, many blind people have discovered how great these gadgets are and how useful they can be in helping them become more independent. For many of us, that is the route we have chosen.

In any case, don’t be too surprised if you meet a blind person who is not interested in learning braille. Don’t be too hard on those people. Maybe they just prefer to do what is easier.

I am so glad that refreshable braille displays exist now. I am also glad that low cost refreshable braille displays are being developed. I definitely don’t miss the days of carrying bulky braille books to and from my classes. I do not miss the days of trying to look up words in the dictionary and dealing with a whole bookshelf of braille books. No thank you! I do not miss my five volume braille New Testament.

If I did not already on a refreshable braille display, I would definitely look into obtaining the orbit braille reader or the braille me.


Anyhow, these are just my rambling opinions.

Victor Sent from my iPhone



On Mar 5, 2020, at 7:40 PM, brian mailto:bsackrider55@... wrote:

    Thanks Grumpy Dave for your explination.  I would be willing to pay a few dollars to get braille. I am not saying that I should get for free but not to have the option is my complaint.  My local liberary use to provide braille for 10 cents per page.   I was also told that if I provided the paper they would braille what I wanted.  They required 67 weight paper which I can get at Staples.  All to often we are forced to except only audio as the only format that is available. Braille will always be my prefered format because I prefer to read for myself instead of just listen.  You say that you hate braille but you can use it well I feel the same about audio. Why do we have to be locked in to just one format?  How many people would rather read than listen?  Blind or sighted. People who prefer to read than should be commended instead of being kind of bashed for it.  If not many blind people request braille than it should be no trouble to provide it. Braille is not that dificult to produce once you have the equipment.  my liberary had no trouble all they needed was files in microsoft word and the paper and they were good to go.  I use to get my weekly meterials for my church all in grade 2 braille. It was really great to finally be an active participant in the service instead just a pasive listener.  To be able to read along with everyone else the verses and hyms and classes lessons is a great feeling you just can't discribe the independence that it givesyou.  It's kind of like having access to dvs you can finally know what is going on when there is all of that dead air.  I was able to read infront of the church and be active in bible study and even lead the groop all using braille.  I do use braille menus when ever possible even if I don't really need it just to let them see that somone is acually using it.  Braille has given me a very full life and I don't know whear my life would be with out braille.  I feel that every blind person who is able to read braille should learn it.  I do understand that there are blind people who have medical conditions that prevents them from being able to read braille.  For them they have no choice but to use audio but I do have the choice I just don't like being limited to just audio only and not braille.  You hate braille and I hate audio.  a good example of when I wish that I had braille instead of a file was when I requested my local newspaper to be accessable.  my lions club purchassed a sara reading machine for me there was no braille manual but there was a print manual.  I had to go to the help file on the machine and try to find what I wanted. When I called the paper office they asked what files my machine could read. If I had a braille manual I could have just looked it up while on the phone and gave them the answer.  I had to call back after I went to the help file and found it.  This is very time concuming I can look up somthing much faster in braille than any other format.  I am not saying that I can do it as quick as a sighted person can with print but for me it's the fastest way for me to get the job done.  When I was a kid I attended the Michigan school the blind in Lansing and we had to learn braille and all of our books were in braille.  There was no I don't want to learn it you had to.  I will say that I can certainly listen much faster than I can read but when it comes to looking up somthing braille is faster hands down.  I have been blind since birth and thats all I ever knew was braille. It's like the sighted grew up with print.  I wanted to learn the opticon at the rehab center but they would not let me because they said that I was not fast enough.  I felt that I was learning and making progress and I should had the right to continue but they said no. If somone really wants to learn a new skil then they should beallowed to do so.  If I am determind to learn somthing that then I will even though it might take more time then the teacher would like.  I guess that modavation means nothing.  If somone reallly wants to learn braille so what ifit takes several month to do so they should not be told no you can't continue.  If companies had the equipment to produce braille they could charge me for the cost of the paper to get braille manuals or catalogs.



On 3/5/2020 9:26 PM, Dave wrote:
Hello Brian,


I have nothing against Braille other than the hassle it is to create
it, such as a Manual in Braille.


I've been blind for a long time now, and there were many times when I
would have Kissed the Feet of anyone who gave me a manual in Audio
format.  many times have I had to just Wing it, learning by Guess and
by Golly.  Once Computers became a Tool for the Blind, Guessing was
not always the best thing to do, as guessing wrong could ruin your
day in a Big way.  Still can.


but, Brian, I have no Beef with Braille.   To produce it is just not an
easy task.  And I would guess that most manufacturers of items for
the blind, may not want to hire another Staff member to do nothing
but print out Manuals in Braille.


Yes, it all sounds good, until the costs of doing such a thing is
considered.


These days, I do expect a Manual at least in a PDF format, if not an
Audio file.  And if I own my own Braille Printer, I can then print
out the PDF file.


Although, I can't afford one of those printers, so I do without.


However,  I could run the Audio file through an Audio to Text
converter, and then print that file out in Braille.


When I get nothing but an On Line Manual, where I need to go On Line
to read the thing.  I am Thankful for at least that much, but I
always look to see if I can just download the manual so I don't need
to be going On Line so much.


Call it my personal Taste.


I would think most who are Blind have learned over and over again to
look for Work Arounds for doing many things in Life.


You like Braille, and while I do use it, I Hate it.  So a Braille
Manual would be a waste of resources to send me one.


You Love it, and can use it well.  So, when the Company doesn't send
a manual in Braille, but has sent you one in PDF, or even Audio, if
you want a manual in Braille, the Work around is to convert that Audio or
PDF file into Braille.   And if you are like me, and can't afford a
Braille Printer, there are Services that will take your Manual file
and make you a manual in Braille.


it may cost you a few dollars, which again is all part of the Life of
someone who is Blind.  In the past, I have hired Readers to read
Manuals on Tape.  Paid them $10 for every hour of Recorded material.


I've paid people to read my Mail.  This was before smart Phones had
built in Cameras and OCR programs.   I paid them $10 an hour too. this
was back in the 1980's and 90's.


I haven't had to hire anyone for about 20 years now


And Dare I bring up the Quality of Manuals?  So often, regardless of
what Format it comes in, the information in the thing is totally Nuts!
It doesn't make Sense, and you can't tell if it is a Translation of
something in Chinese to English, or from Chinese to Spanish and then
Russian, and then to English etc.


And some manuals that come in English  are so poorly written, lack
helpful information and seem to be missing a great deal of actual
instructional information and are next to useless in any format.


Grumpy Dave






















Re: one note

Kerryn Gunness
 


no its microsoft one note
thanks again
 

----- Original Message -----
From: Holly
Sent: Saturday, March 7, 2020 4:32 PM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] one note

Karen:
 
I see that there is a one note app for note taking.  That is probably the one you want
 
Sorry.  I had never heard of it.  Hope someone out there can help.


Re: determining how much ram a laptop can handle with it's installed motherboard

Mike B
 

Try going to the link below and running their tool that'll tell you what you want to know and then some.
 

 
 
Take care.  Mike.  Sent from my iBarstool.  Go dodgers!

----- Original Message -----
From: Keith S
Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2020 12:53 PM
Subject: [TechTalk] determining how much ram a laptop can handle with it's installed motherboard

Is there any way to determine how much ram a laptop can handle  with it's installed motherboard.
 
I used to build computers to spec when I was sighted, but that was over 17 years ago.
 
My laptop needs a major ram boost, but  I have never build or determined how much ram a motherboard can handle since I went blind
 
Thanks
 
Keith


Re: spell checker

Mike B
 


According to his email properties he's using Thunderbird, but he should probably verify this with the version as well.

Take care.  Mike.  Sent from my iBarstool.  Go dodgers!

----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2020 2:41 PM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] spell checker

What e-mail program are you using or are you using a webmail interface?
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: brian
Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2020 12:53 PM
Subject: [TechTalk] spell checker

            People on this list and on other lists have told me to use a spell checker and thats all they say.  They did not give me any options or tell me whear to get oneor how to use one.  I don't have microsoft office.  What is a good spell checker that works with nvda?  Just telling me what I should do but not providing with out anyhelp information does me no good and is not helping me at all.  I have not taken any computer classes what I know I have learned on my own.  It seems that people are all to willing to tell me what I should do but don't give any helpful sugestions.  I know that I do need help and I do want to make mymessages more readable.  It's not that I don't care I just don't know what to do about the problem.  It is true that if I write to fast than I will make lots of mistakes.  The same is true if I write in braille.  I do get very slopy if I write to fast.

Brian Sackrider 

On 3/7/2020 12:13 PM, Gene wrote:
You are making unsupported statements.  How do you know Brian has learning differences?  How do you know he was coasted through school?  I'll offer an alternative explanation.  I'm not saying either are correct nor am I saying which one may or may not account for observed phenomena better.  But how do you know that some or many of these errors are not the result of someone feeling strongly about something and rushing to get the message written as quickly as possible?  If Brian is typing far above the speed at which he types more accurately, that may result in some of what is observed.  And, since I've seen messages from Brian that don't have all these mistakes, I'll consider my theory to be a possibly better explanation, since I don't know Brian's background and I think it is absurd to infer some sort of learning differences based on a few e-mails. 
 
But none of this, learning differences, spelling difficulties, a rush to type as quickly as you can to get your message out as fast as possible, none of these possibilities precludes the use of a spell checker. 
 
To this point, I have been writing as a list member.  I am now writing as the list owner.
 
This discussion has been very interesting and we know more about each other than we did, thus helping build community on the list.  But if the discussion becomes mostly one of how messages are written, I'll close it.  I realize that you and a few others may want to respond to what I and others have said but this part of the discussion shouldn't continue for more than a few more messages. 
 
Now, I'm writing as a list member again.
 
Brian, I would think it may be uncomfortable seeing your writing critiqued.  But keep these things in mind and you may find the experience useful:
My view is that if I expect someone to spend the time reading my messages and thinking about them, I have a certain responsibility to make them reasonably readable.  In your case, many people probably have to stop to review phrases where words are written together without spaces.  Because I've seen messages from you that are much better written, it appears to me that if you get emotional about a subject, you rush to write what you want as quickly as you can.  the result is errors that make your messages difficult to read, such as words written together with no spaces. 
 
As to spelling, in general I would just let that go.  But when you call a whole class of people illiterate, then don't use a spellchecker and have misspelled wordafter misspelled word, then, like it or not, you become part of the discussion.  Like it or not, literacy is partly sending a message without perhaps thirty or forty or more misspelled words.  And nothing precludes you from using a spellchecker.  As I said, in general I wouldn't comment on spelling, but it is inevitable that at least a few people will when you accuse people of being illiterate and don't use a spell checker, resulting in a great many misspellings.  It's as though I attended a cooking contest, made a speech before the event in which I said that with frozen dinners, no one knows how to cook anymore, then I burned the soup and my main dish. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2020 6:27 AM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

Hi all,

I could write a long rant about how I am treated when I correct
people's spelling publicly.  I have been called harsh and arrogant and
more.  I won't do that because it would be counter-productive.  I will
say, however, that taking advantage of someone who has made a public
mistake is, I feel, cruel.  it demeans those who perpetuate such crimes.

If you wish to correct Brian's writing, you might do so privately,
thereby giving him the dignity he deserves.  It isn't his fault that he
was coasted through school.  It isn't his fault that he may not have a
braille display or possess hard copy braille so that he could improve
his writing.

If you want to help, take it off-list!  Truly be of service and not
part of the problem.

Ann P.


Original message:
> Now Brian,

> I don't want to personalize this, but you say you're a good
> Braille reader now: correct?  You say that people who use audio
> primarily aren't truly literate and you can tell by the way they write
> e-mails: is that what you're saying?  Well let me be your teacher and
> quote and correct your own mistakes that you have made in your lengthy
> reply.

> <spelling error>    aAmen(I guess you are trying to say Amen to that or
> something similar--note the repetition of the first letter A.)

> <grammatical clumsiness> if you don't braille than you are not truly
> literate. (I guess you mean: if you don't know/use/are competent in,
> Braille then you are not truly literate.)

> <run on sentence> If you doubt this then read emails from blind people
> who don't know braille there spelling and (There should be a period
> after the word Braille.)

> <spelling error> gramar and punctuation leave alot to be desired.  (In
> this sentence grammar and a lot are misspelled.)

> <run on sentence> I have been there myself if I don't read then I to
> will fall in to trap as well.  (There should be a period after the word
> myself.)

> If you truly want to be literate then you just have
> <spelling error> toread and not just listen to audio.  (there is a run
> on word toread that should be separated into 'to read.')
> Those of us who  do prefer braille and would rather read than listen
> have only audio as the option all to often. For me if I want to stay
> literate then I have to read braille and as I said in my email to Grumpy
> Dave I can't
> <spelling error> amagine my life with out braille.  (I guess you mean
> 'imagine my life without Braille.)

> <wrong use of the word loose> I have had braille most of my life and I
> would loose independence (I guess you mean lose independence.)

> <spelling error> ifI were to not know braille.   (You ran the words If
> and I together.)

> Reading braille is active reading but listening to audio or computer
> speech is just passive reading.

> I prefer to <spelling error> activly read but most of the time I can't
> because it's audio only.  (You misspelled actively.)

> <spelling errors and a run on sentence> I do rember haveing to cary
> volumes of braille books acrost campus at the blind school but I never
> gave it a though it was just what I hav to do it was no problem for me
> at all.   (You misspelled remember, having, across and probably mean the
> word had when you wrote hav. And I almost forgot, you used the word
> though instead of thought.)  (There should be a period after the word
> thought.)

> The campus at the Michigan school for the blind in Lansing Michigan
> covered a 4 city block area.  I tried college back in 1987-1988 and I
> could have
> <spelling error> donee much better if I had braille.  (You misspelled
> the word done.)

> <spelling errors> I had tapes from recording forthe blind but I had
> issues with the readers with pronouncations.   (you ran the words for
> and the together.  You misspelled pronunciation.)

> I remember taking test and what I heard during the test sounded nothing
> like what I heard on the tapes.

> If I would have had my books in braille I would have known the correct
> words and the tests would have made <spelling error> sinse.  (You
> misspelled the word sense.)

> <spelling error> If yur going to read on tape then you must be able to
> speak properly and say your words properly.   (You misspelled the word
> you're--or at least I think that's what you meant by writing the word yur.)

> <grammatical oddity> There was the issue of only tape at a time and
> having to send 2 copies of every book to recording for the blind to be
> recorded.  (I'm not quite sure, but I think you meant 'only one tape at
> a time.)

> <spelling error> Audio is usless if I don't know what you are saying.
> (You misspelled useless.)

> This is why we need braille.  Braille readers don't make a big deal of
> how many volumes a book is it just is.


> LONG STORY SHORT: BRIAN, YOU ARE A POOR EXAMPLE OF THE IDEA THAT BRAILLE
> READERS WRITE COHERENT AND GRAMATICALLY CORRECT E-MAIL MESSAGES.
> On 3/6/2020 3:01 PM, brian wrote:
>> aAmen if you don't braille than you are not truly literate. If you
>> doubt this then read emails from blind people who don't know braille
>> there spelling and gramar and punctuation leave alot to be desired.  I
>> have been there myself if I don't read then I to will fall in to trap
>> as well.  If you truly want to be literate then you just have toread
>> and not just listen to audio.  Those of us who  do prefer braille and
>> would rather read than listen have only audio as the option all to
>> often. For me if I want to stay literate then I have to read braille
>> and as I said in my email to Grumpy Dave I can't amagine my life with
>> out braille.  I have had braille most of my life and I would loose
>> independence ifI were to not know braille.  Reading braille is active
>> reading but listening to audio or computer speech is just passive
>> reading.  I prefer to activly read but most of the time I can't
>> because it's audio only.  I do rember haveing to cary volumes of
>> braille books acrost campus at the blind school but I never gave it a
>> though it was just what I hav to do it was no problem for me at all.
>> The campus at the Michigan school for the blind in Lansing Michigan
>> covered a 4 city block area.  I tried college back in 1987-1988 and I
>> could have donee much better if I had braille.  I had tapes from
>> recording forthe blind but I had issues with the readers with
>> pronouncations.  I remember taking test and what I heard during the
>> test sounded nothing like what I heard on the tapes.  If I would have
>> had my books in braille I would have known the correct words and the
>> tests would have made sinse.  If yur going to read on tape then you
>> must be able to speak properly and say your words properly.  There was
>> the issue of only tape at a time and having to send 2 copies of every
>> book to recording for the blind to be recorded.  Audio is usless if I
>> don't know what you are saying. This is why we need braille.  Braille
>> readers don't make a big deal of how many volumes a book is it just is.

>> Brian Sackrider

>> On 3/6/2020 7:26 AM, chris judge wrote:
>>> This is true. There is a huge difference between not learning braille
>>> if you've lost your site later in life. The unfortunate fact is that
>>> even people who are blind since birth are not learning braille at the
>>> rate they were when I was a kid 50 years ago. If you are blind since
>>> birth and you don't learn braille you miss out on basic literacy. How
>>> do you learn proper spelling, grammar, punctuation and such if you
>>> don't learn braile. If you have had site you already understand these
>>> things so knowing braille isn't as paramount.

>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of
>>> Victor
>>> Sent: March 6, 2020 12:42 AM
>>> To: main@techtalk.groups.io
>>> Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

>>> Hello everyone:

>>> I would like to point out that many blind people lose their eyesight
>>> later in life and they find it too difficult to learn braille. It is
>>> much easier for them to access information by listening to audio.
>>> It’s hard enough for them to get over losing their eyesight and live
>>> without seeing their loved ones or other things ever again. The last
>>> thing they want is to learn a new skill that they may find just too
>>> difficult.

>>> After obtaining my iPhone, I attended a users group where are the
>>> people taught each other to use iOS devices. While at the group one
>>> day, one of the group leaders brought a focus 40 refreshable braille
>>> display for everyone to examine. I was the only blind person in the
>>> room interested in touching the device because I knew braille and I
>>> owned a previous generation of that device. It was not discussed, but
>>> I knew that they were not interested because most of them had lost
>>> their eyesight later in life. I suspect that they found it much
>>> easier to listen to audio than reading braille. Plus, most of them
>>> had learned how to access information using their iPhones. I’m sure
>>> they found it much easier to whip out their iPhones and listen to
>>> their books, podcasts, scan documents and do everything else we can
>>> do with our iPhones. I realize that not everyone owns a smart phone
>>> because they have not found a way to obtain one. I also realize that
>>> not everyone is into these types of gadgets. However, many blind
>>> people have discovered how great these gadgets are and how useful
>>> they can be in helping them become more independent. For many of us,
>>> that is the route we have chosen.

>>> In any case, don’t be too surprised if you meet a blind person who is
>>> not interested in learning braille. Don’t be too hard on those
>>> people. Maybe they just prefer to do what is easier.

>>> I am so glad that refreshable braille displays exist now. I am also
>>> glad that low cost refreshable braille displays are being developed.
>>> I definitely don’t miss the days of carrying bulky braille books to
>>> and from my classes. I do not miss the days of trying to look up
>>> words in the dictionary and dealing with a whole bookshelf of braille
>>> books. No thank you! I do not miss my five volume braille New Testament.

>>> If I did not already on a refreshable braille display, I would
>>> definitely look into obtaining the orbit braille reader or the
>>> braille me.


>>> Anyhow, these are just my rambling opinions.

>>> Victor Sent from my iPhone

>>>> On Mar 5, 2020, at 7:40 PM, brian <bsackrider55@...> wrote:

>>>>     Thanks Grumpy Dave for your explination.  I would be willing to
>>>> pay a few dollars to get braille. I am not saying that I should get
>>>> for free but not to have the option is my complaint.  My local
>>>> liberary use to provide braille for 10 cents per page.   I was also
>>>> told that if I provided the paper they would braille what I wanted.
>>>> They required 67 weight paper which I can get at Staples.  All to
>>>> often we are forced to except only audio as the only format that is
>>>> available. Braille will always be my prefered format because I
>>>> prefer to read for myself instead of just listen.  You say that you
>>>> hate braille but you can use it well I feel the same about audio.
>>>> Why do we have to be locked in to just one format?  How many people
>>>> would rather read than listen?  Blind or sighted. People who prefer
>>>> to read than should be commended instead of being kind of bashed for
>>>> it.  If not many blind people request braille than it should be no
>>>> trouble to provide it. Braille is not that dificult to produce once
>>>> you have the equipment.  my liberary had no trouble all they needed
>>>> was files in microsoft word and the paper and they were good to go.
>>>> I use to get my weekly meterials for my church all in grade 2
>>>> braille. It was really great to finally be an active participant in
>>>> the service instead just a pasive listener.  To be able to read
>>>> along with everyone else the verses and hyms and classes lessons is
>>>> a great feeling you just can't discribe the independence that it
>>>> givesyou.  It's kind of like having access to dvs you can finally
>>>> know what is going on when there is all of that dead air.  I was
>>>> able to read infront of the church and be active in bible study and
>>>> even lead the groop all using braille.  I do use braille menus when
>>>> ever possible even if I don't really need it just to let them see
>>>> that somone is acually using it.  Braille has given me a very full
>>>> life and I don't know whear my life would be with out braille.  I
>>>> feel that every blind person who is able to read braille should
>>>> learn it.  I do understand that there are blind people who have
>>>> medical conditions that prevents them from being able to read
>>>> braille.  For them they have no choice but to use audio but I do
>>>> have the choice I just don't like being limited to just audio only
>>>> and not braille.  You hate braille and I hate audio.  a good example
>>>> of when I wish that I had braille instead of a file was when I
>>>> requested my local newspaper to be accessable.  my lions club
>>>> purchassed a sara reading machine for me there was no braille manual
>>>> but there was a print manual.  I had to go to the help file on the
>>>> machine and try to find what I wanted.  When I called the paper
>>>> office they asked what files my machine could read.  If I had a
>>>> braille manual I could have just looked it up while on the phone and
>>>> gave them the answer.  I had to call back after I went to the help
>>>> file and found it.  This is very time concuming I can look up
>>>> somthing much faster in braille than any other format.  I am not
>>>> saying that I can do it as quick as a sighted person can with print
>>>> but for me it's the fastest way for me to get the job done.  When I
>>>> was a kid I attended the Michigan school the blind in Lansing and we
>>>> had to learn braille and all of our books were in braille.  There
>>>> was no I don't want to learn it you had to.  I will say that I can
>>>> certainly listen much faster than I can read but when it comes to
>>>> looking up somthing braille is faster hands down.  I have been blind
>>>> since birth and thats all I ever knew was braille. It's like the
>>>> sighted grew up with print.  I wanted to learn the opticon at the
>>>> rehab center but they would not let me because they said that I was
>>>> not fast enough.  I felt that I was learning and making progress and
>>>> I should had the right to continue but they said no. If somone
>>>> really wants to learn a new skil then they should beallowed to do
>>>> so.  If I am determind to learn somthing that then I will even
>>>> though it might take more time then the teacher would like.  I guess
>>>> that modavation means nothing.  If somone reallly wants to learn
>>>> braille so what ifit takes several month to do so they should not be
>>>> told no you can't continue.  If companies had the equipment to
>>>> produce braille they could charge me for the cost of the paper to
>>>> get braille manuals or catalogs.

>>>>> On 3/5/2020 9:26 PM, Dave wrote:
>>>>> Hello Brian,


>>>>> I have nothing against Braille other than the hassle it is to create
>>>>> it, such as a Manual in Braille.


>>>>> I've been blind for a long time now, and there were many times when I
>>>>> would have Kissed the Feet of anyone who gave me a manual in Audio
>>>>> format.  many times have I had to just Wing it, learning by Guess and
>>>>> by Golly.  Once Computers became a Tool for the Blind, Guessing was
>>>>> not always the best thing to do, as guessing wrong could ruin your
>>>>> day in a Big way.  Still can.


>>>>> but, Brian, I have no Beef with Braille.   To produce it is just
>>>>> not an
>>>>> easy task.  And I would guess that most manufacturers of items for
>>>>> the blind, may not want to hire another Staff member to do nothing
>>>>> but print out Manuals in Braille.


>>>>> Yes, it all sounds good, until the costs of doing such a thing is
>>>>> considered.


>>>>> These days, I do expect a Manual at least in a PDF format, if not an
>>>>> Audio file.  And if I own my own Braille Printer, I can then print
>>>>> out the PDF file.


>>>>> Although, I can't afford one of those printers, so I do without.


>>>>> However,  I could run the Audio file through an Audio to Text
>>>>> converter, and then print that file out in Braille.


>>>>> When I get nothing but an On Line Manual, where I need to go On Line
>>>>> to read the thing.  I am Thankful for at least that much, but I
>>>>> always look to see if I can just download the manual so I don't need
>>>>> to be going On Line so much.


>>>>> Call it my personal Taste.


>>>>> I would think most who are Blind have learned over and over again to
>>>>> look for Work Arounds for doing many things in Life.


>>>>> You like Braille, and while I do use it, I Hate it.  So a Braille
>>>>> Manual would be a waste of resources to send me one.


>>>>> You Love it, and can use it well.  So, when the Company doesn't send
>>>>> a manual in Braille, but has sent you one in PDF, or even Audio, if
>>>>> you want a manual in Braille, the Work around is to convert that
>>>>> Audio or
>>>>> PDF file into Braille.   And if you are like me, and can't afford a
>>>>> Braille Printer, there are Services that will take your Manual file
>>>>> and make you a manual in Braille.


>>>>> it may cost you a few dollars, which again is all part of the Life of
>>>>> someone who is Blind.  In the past, I have hired Readers to read
>>>>> Manuals on Tape.  Paid them $10 for every hour of Recorded material.


>>>>> I've paid people to read my Mail.  This was before smart Phones had
>>>>> built in Cameras and OCR programs.   I paid them $10 an hour too. this
>>>>> was back in the 1980's and 90's.


>>>>> I haven't had to hire anyone for about 20 years now


>>>>> And Dare I bring up the Quality of Manuals?  So often, regardless of
>>>>> what Format it comes in, the information in the thing is totally Nuts!
>>>>> It doesn't make Sense, and you can't tell if it is a Translation of
>>>>> something in Chinese to English, or from Chinese to Spanish and then
>>>>> Russian, and then to English etc.


>>>>> And some manuals that come in English  are so poorly written, lack
>>>>> helpful information and seem to be missing a great deal of actual
>>>>> instructional information and are next to useless in any format.


>>>>> Grumpy Dave



















> --
> They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
> They ask: "How Happy are You?"
> I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


>

--
Ann K. Parsons
Portal Tutoring
EMAIL:  akp@...
Author of The Demmies: http://www.dldbooks.com/annparsons/
Portal Tutoring web site:  http://www.portaltutoring.info
Skype: Putertutor

"All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost."




Re: spell checker

Gene
 

What e-mail program are you using or are you using a webmail interface?
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: brian
Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2020 12:53 PM
Subject: [TechTalk] spell checker

            People on this list and on other lists have told me to use a spell checker and thats all they say.  They did not give me any options or tell me whear to get oneor how to use one.  I don't have microsoft office.  What is a good spell checker that works with nvda?  Just telling me what I should do but not providing with out anyhelp information does me no good and is not helping me at all.  I have not taken any computer classes what I know I have learned on my own.  It seems that people are all to willing to tell me what I should do but don't give any helpful sugestions.  I know that I do need help and I do want to make mymessages more readable.  It's not that I don't care I just don't know what to do about the problem.  It is true that if I write to fast than I will make lots of mistakes.  The same is true if I write in braille.  I do get very slopy if I write to fast.

Brian Sackrider 

On 3/7/2020 12:13 PM, Gene wrote:
You are making unsupported statements.  How do you know Brian has learning differences?  How do you know he was coasted through school?  I'll offer an alternative explanation.  I'm not saying either are correct nor am I saying which one may or may not account for observed phenomena better.  But how do you know that some or many of these errors are not the result of someone feeling strongly about something and rushing to get the message written as quickly as possible?  If Brian is typing far above the speed at which he types more accurately, that may result in some of what is observed.  And, since I've seen messages from Brian that don't have all these mistakes, I'll consider my theory to be a possibly better explanation, since I don't know Brian's background and I think it is absurd to infer some sort of learning differences based on a few e-mails. 
 
But none of this, learning differences, spelling difficulties, a rush to type as quickly as you can to get your message out as fast as possible, none of these possibilities precludes the use of a spell checker. 
 
To this point, I have been writing as a list member.  I am now writing as the list owner.
 
This discussion has been very interesting and we know more about each other than we did, thus helping build community on the list.  But if the discussion becomes mostly one of how messages are written, I'll close it.  I realize that you and a few others may want to respond to what I and others have said but this part of the discussion shouldn't continue for more than a few more messages. 
 
Now, I'm writing as a list member again.
 
Brian, I would think it may be uncomfortable seeing your writing critiqued.  But keep these things in mind and you may find the experience useful:
My view is that if I expect someone to spend the time reading my messages and thinking about them, I have a certain responsibility to make them reasonably readable.  In your case, many people probably have to stop to review phrases where words are written together without spaces.  Because I've seen messages from you that are much better written, it appears to me that if you get emotional about a subject, you rush to write what you want as quickly as you can.  the result is errors that make your messages difficult to read, such as words written together with no spaces. 
 
As to spelling, in general I would just let that go.  But when you call a whole class of people illiterate, then don't use a spellchecker and have misspelled wordafter misspelled word, then, like it or not, you become part of the discussion.  Like it or not, literacy is partly sending a message without perhaps thirty or forty or more misspelled words.  And nothing precludes you from using a spellchecker.  As I said, in general I wouldn't comment on spelling, but it is inevitable that at least a few people will when you accuse people of being illiterate and don't use a spell checker, resulting in a great many misspellings.  It's as though I attended a cooking contest, made a speech before the event in which I said that with frozen dinners, no one knows how to cook anymore, then I burned the soup and my main dish. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2020 6:27 AM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

Hi all,

I could write a long rant about how I am treated when I correct
people's spelling publicly.  I have been called harsh and arrogant and
more.  I won't do that because it would be counter-productive.  I will
say, however, that taking advantage of someone who has made a public
mistake is, I feel, cruel.  it demeans those who perpetuate such crimes.

If you wish to correct Brian's writing, you might do so privately,
thereby giving him the dignity he deserves.  It isn't his fault that he
was coasted through school.  It isn't his fault that he may not have a
braille display or possess hard copy braille so that he could improve
his writing.

If you want to help, take it off-list!  Truly be of service and not
part of the problem.

Ann P.


Original message:
> Now Brian,

> I don't want to personalize this, but you say you're a good
> Braille reader now: correct?  You say that people who use audio
> primarily aren't truly literate and you can tell by the way they write
> e-mails: is that what you're saying?  Well let me be your teacher and
> quote and correct your own mistakes that you have made in your lengthy
> reply.

> <spelling error>    aAmen(I guess you are trying to say Amen to that or
> something similar--note the repetition of the first letter A.)

> <grammatical clumsiness> if you don't braille than you are not truly
> literate. (I guess you mean: if you don't know/use/are competent in,
> Braille then you are not truly literate.)

> <run on sentence> If you doubt this then read emails from blind people
> who don't know braille there spelling and (There should be a period
> after the word Braille.)

> <spelling error> gramar and punctuation leave alot to be desired.  (In
> this sentence grammar and a lot are misspelled.)

> <run on sentence> I have been there myself if I don't read then I to
> will fall in to trap as well.  (There should be a period after the word
> myself.)

> If you truly want to be literate then you just have
> <spelling error> toread and not just listen to audio.  (there is a run
> on word toread that should be separated into 'to read.')
> Those of us who  do prefer braille and would rather read than listen
> have only audio as the option all to often. For me if I want to stay
> literate then I have to read braille and as I said in my email to Grumpy
> Dave I can't
> <spelling error> amagine my life with out braille.  (I guess you mean
> 'imagine my life without Braille.)

> <wrong use of the word loose> I have had braille most of my life and I
> would loose independence (I guess you mean lose independence.)

> <spelling error> ifI were to not know braille.   (You ran the words If
> and I together.)

> Reading braille is active reading but listening to audio or computer
> speech is just passive reading.

> I prefer to <spelling error> activly read but most of the time I can't
> because it's audio only.  (You misspelled actively.)

> <spelling errors and a run on sentence> I do rember haveing to cary
> volumes of braille books acrost campus at the blind school but I never
> gave it a though it was just what I hav to do it was no problem for me
> at all.   (You misspelled remember, having, across and probably mean the
> word had when you wrote hav. And I almost forgot, you used the word
> though instead of thought.)  (There should be a period after the word
> thought.)

> The campus at the Michigan school for the blind in Lansing Michigan
> covered a 4 city block area.  I tried college back in 1987-1988 and I
> could have
> <spelling error> donee much better if I had braille.  (You misspelled
> the word done.)

> <spelling errors> I had tapes from recording forthe blind but I had
> issues with the readers with pronouncations.   (you ran the words for
> and the together.  You misspelled pronunciation.)

> I remember taking test and what I heard during the test sounded nothing
> like what I heard on the tapes.

> If I would have had my books in braille I would have known the correct
> words and the tests would have made <spelling error> sinse.  (You
> misspelled the word sense.)

> <spelling error> If yur going to read on tape then you must be able to
> speak properly and say your words properly.   (You misspelled the word
> you're--or at least I think that's what you meant by writing the word yur.)

> <grammatical oddity> There was the issue of only tape at a time and
> having to send 2 copies of every book to recording for the blind to be
> recorded.  (I'm not quite sure, but I think you meant 'only one tape at
> a time.)

> <spelling error> Audio is usless if I don't know what you are saying.
> (You misspelled useless.)

> This is why we need braille.  Braille readers don't make a big deal of
> how many volumes a book is it just is.


> LONG STORY SHORT: BRIAN, YOU ARE A POOR EXAMPLE OF THE IDEA THAT BRAILLE
> READERS WRITE COHERENT AND GRAMATICALLY CORRECT E-MAIL MESSAGES.
> On 3/6/2020 3:01 PM, brian wrote:
>> aAmen if you don't braille than you are not truly literate. If you
>> doubt this then read emails from blind people who don't know braille
>> there spelling and gramar and punctuation leave alot to be desired.  I
>> have been there myself if I don't read then I to will fall in to trap
>> as well.  If you truly want to be literate then you just have toread
>> and not just listen to audio.  Those of us who  do prefer braille and
>> would rather read than listen have only audio as the option all to
>> often. For me if I want to stay literate then I have to read braille
>> and as I said in my email to Grumpy Dave I can't amagine my life with
>> out braille.  I have had braille most of my life and I would loose
>> independence ifI were to not know braille.  Reading braille is active
>> reading but listening to audio or computer speech is just passive
>> reading.  I prefer to activly read but most of the time I can't
>> because it's audio only.  I do rember haveing to cary volumes of
>> braille books acrost campus at the blind school but I never gave it a
>> though it was just what I hav to do it was no problem for me at all.
>> The campus at the Michigan school for the blind in Lansing Michigan
>> covered a 4 city block area.  I tried college back in 1987-1988 and I
>> could have donee much better if I had braille.  I had tapes from
>> recording forthe blind but I had issues with the readers with
>> pronouncations.  I remember taking test and what I heard during the
>> test sounded nothing like what I heard on the tapes.  If I would have
>> had my books in braille I would have known the correct words and the
>> tests would have made sinse.  If yur going to read on tape then you
>> must be able to speak properly and say your words properly.  There was
>> the issue of only tape at a time and having to send 2 copies of every
>> book to recording for the blind to be recorded.  Audio is usless if I
>> don't know what you are saying. This is why we need braille.  Braille
>> readers don't make a big deal of how many volumes a book is it just is.

>> Brian Sackrider

>> On 3/6/2020 7:26 AM, chris judge wrote:
>>> This is true. There is a huge difference between not learning braille
>>> if you've lost your site later in life. The unfortunate fact is that
>>> even people who are blind since birth are not learning braille at the
>>> rate they were when I was a kid 50 years ago. If you are blind since
>>> birth and you don't learn braille you miss out on basic literacy. How
>>> do you learn proper spelling, grammar, punctuation and such if you
>>> don't learn braile. If you have had site you already understand these
>>> things so knowing braille isn't as paramount.

>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of
>>> Victor
>>> Sent: March 6, 2020 12:42 AM
>>> To: main@techtalk.groups.io
>>> Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

>>> Hello everyone:

>>> I would like to point out that many blind people lose their eyesight
>>> later in life and they find it too difficult to learn braille. It is
>>> much easier for them to access information by listening to audio.
>>> It’s hard enough for them to get over losing their eyesight and live
>>> without seeing their loved ones or other things ever again. The last
>>> thing they want is to learn a new skill that they may find just too
>>> difficult.

>>> After obtaining my iPhone, I attended a users group where are the
>>> people taught each other to use iOS devices. While at the group one
>>> day, one of the group leaders brought a focus 40 refreshable braille
>>> display for everyone to examine. I was the only blind person in the
>>> room interested in touching the device because I knew braille and I
>>> owned a previous generation of that device. It was not discussed, but
>>> I knew that they were not interested because most of them had lost
>>> their eyesight later in life. I suspect that they found it much
>>> easier to listen to audio than reading braille. Plus, most of them
>>> had learned how to access information using their iPhones. I’m sure
>>> they found it much easier to whip out their iPhones and listen to
>>> their books, podcasts, scan documents and do everything else we can
>>> do with our iPhones. I realize that not everyone owns a smart phone
>>> because they have not found a way to obtain one. I also realize that
>>> not everyone is into these types of gadgets. However, many blind
>>> people have discovered how great these gadgets are and how useful
>>> they can be in helping them become more independent. For many of us,
>>> that is the route we have chosen.

>>> In any case, don’t be too surprised if you meet a blind person who is
>>> not interested in learning braille. Don’t be too hard on those
>>> people. Maybe they just prefer to do what is easier.

>>> I am so glad that refreshable braille displays exist now. I am also
>>> glad that low cost refreshable braille displays are being developed.
>>> I definitely don’t miss the days of carrying bulky braille books to
>>> and from my classes. I do not miss the days of trying to look up
>>> words in the dictionary and dealing with a whole bookshelf of braille
>>> books. No thank you! I do not miss my five volume braille New Testament.

>>> If I did not already on a refreshable braille display, I would
>>> definitely look into obtaining the orbit braille reader or the
>>> braille me.


>>> Anyhow, these are just my rambling opinions.

>>> Victor Sent from my iPhone

>>>> On Mar 5, 2020, at 7:40 PM, brian <bsackrider55@...> wrote:

>>>>     Thanks Grumpy Dave for your explination.  I would be willing to
>>>> pay a few dollars to get braille. I am not saying that I should get
>>>> for free but not to have the option is my complaint.  My local
>>>> liberary use to provide braille for 10 cents per page.   I was also
>>>> told that if I provided the paper they would braille what I wanted.
>>>> They required 67 weight paper which I can get at Staples.  All to
>>>> often we are forced to except only audio as the only format that is
>>>> available. Braille will always be my prefered format because I
>>>> prefer to read for myself instead of just listen.  You say that you
>>>> hate braille but you can use it well I feel the same about audio.
>>>> Why do we have to be locked in to just one format?  How many people
>>>> would rather read than listen?  Blind or sighted. People who prefer
>>>> to read than should be commended instead of being kind of bashed for
>>>> it.  If not many blind people request braille than it should be no
>>>> trouble to provide it. Braille is not that dificult to produce once
>>>> you have the equipment.  my liberary had no trouble all they needed
>>>> was files in microsoft word and the paper and they were good to go.
>>>> I use to get my weekly meterials for my church all in grade 2
>>>> braille. It was really great to finally be an active participant in
>>>> the service instead just a pasive listener.  To be able to read
>>>> along with everyone else the verses and hyms and classes lessons is
>>>> a great feeling you just can't discribe the independence that it
>>>> givesyou.  It's kind of like having access to dvs you can finally
>>>> know what is going on when there is all of that dead air.  I was
>>>> able to read infront of the church and be active in bible study and
>>>> even lead the groop all using braille.  I do use braille menus when
>>>> ever possible even if I don't really need it just to let them see
>>>> that somone is acually using it.  Braille has given me a very full
>>>> life and I don't know whear my life would be with out braille.  I
>>>> feel that every blind person who is able to read braille should
>>>> learn it.  I do understand that there are blind people who have
>>>> medical conditions that prevents them from being able to read
>>>> braille.  For them they have no choice but to use audio but I do
>>>> have the choice I just don't like being limited to just audio only
>>>> and not braille.  You hate braille and I hate audio.  a good example
>>>> of when I wish that I had braille instead of a file was when I
>>>> requested my local newspaper to be accessable.  my lions club
>>>> purchassed a sara reading machine for me there was no braille manual
>>>> but there was a print manual.  I had to go to the help file on the
>>>> machine and try to find what I wanted.  When I called the paper
>>>> office they asked what files my machine could read.  If I had a
>>>> braille manual I could have just looked it up while on the phone and
>>>> gave them the answer.  I had to call back after I went to the help
>>>> file and found it.  This is very time concuming I can look up
>>>> somthing much faster in braille than any other format.  I am not
>>>> saying that I can do it as quick as a sighted person can with print
>>>> but for me it's the fastest way for me to get the job done.  When I
>>>> was a kid I attended the Michigan school the blind in Lansing and we
>>>> had to learn braille and all of our books were in braille.  There
>>>> was no I don't want to learn it you had to.  I will say that I can
>>>> certainly listen much faster than I can read but when it comes to
>>>> looking up somthing braille is faster hands down.  I have been blind
>>>> since birth and thats all I ever knew was braille. It's like the
>>>> sighted grew up with print.  I wanted to learn the opticon at the
>>>> rehab center but they would not let me because they said that I was
>>>> not fast enough.  I felt that I was learning and making progress and
>>>> I should had the right to continue but they said no. If somone
>>>> really wants to learn a new skil then they should beallowed to do
>>>> so.  If I am determind to learn somthing that then I will even
>>>> though it might take more time then the teacher would like.  I guess
>>>> that modavation means nothing.  If somone reallly wants to learn
>>>> braille so what ifit takes several month to do so they should not be
>>>> told no you can't continue.  If companies had the equipment to
>>>> produce braille they could charge me for the cost of the paper to
>>>> get braille manuals or catalogs.

>>>>> On 3/5/2020 9:26 PM, Dave wrote:
>>>>> Hello Brian,


>>>>> I have nothing against Braille other than the hassle it is to create
>>>>> it, such as a Manual in Braille.


>>>>> I've been blind for a long time now, and there were many times when I
>>>>> would have Kissed the Feet of anyone who gave me a manual in Audio
>>>>> format.  many times have I had to just Wing it, learning by Guess and
>>>>> by Golly.  Once Computers became a Tool for the Blind, Guessing was
>>>>> not always the best thing to do, as guessing wrong could ruin your
>>>>> day in a Big way.  Still can.


>>>>> but, Brian, I have no Beef with Braille.   To produce it is just
>>>>> not an
>>>>> easy task.  And I would guess that most manufacturers of items for
>>>>> the blind, may not want to hire another Staff member to do nothing
>>>>> but print out Manuals in Braille.


>>>>> Yes, it all sounds good, until the costs of doing such a thing is
>>>>> considered.


>>>>> These days, I do expect a Manual at least in a PDF format, if not an
>>>>> Audio file.  And if I own my own Braille Printer, I can then print
>>>>> out the PDF file.


>>>>> Although, I can't afford one of those printers, so I do without.


>>>>> However,  I could run the Audio file through an Audio to Text
>>>>> converter, and then print that file out in Braille.


>>>>> When I get nothing but an On Line Manual, where I need to go On Line
>>>>> to read the thing.  I am Thankful for at least that much, but I
>>>>> always look to see if I can just download the manual so I don't need
>>>>> to be going On Line so much.


>>>>> Call it my personal Taste.


>>>>> I would think most who are Blind have learned over and over again to
>>>>> look for Work Arounds for doing many things in Life.


>>>>> You like Braille, and while I do use it, I Hate it.  So a Braille
>>>>> Manual would be a waste of resources to send me one.


>>>>> You Love it, and can use it well.  So, when the Company doesn't send
>>>>> a manual in Braille, but has sent you one in PDF, or even Audio, if
>>>>> you want a manual in Braille, the Work around is to convert that
>>>>> Audio or
>>>>> PDF file into Braille.   And if you are like me, and can't afford a
>>>>> Braille Printer, there are Services that will take your Manual file
>>>>> and make you a manual in Braille.


>>>>> it may cost you a few dollars, which again is all part of the Life of
>>>>> someone who is Blind.  In the past, I have hired Readers to read
>>>>> Manuals on Tape.  Paid them $10 for every hour of Recorded material.


>>>>> I've paid people to read my Mail.  This was before smart Phones had
>>>>> built in Cameras and OCR programs.   I paid them $10 an hour too. this
>>>>> was back in the 1980's and 90's.


>>>>> I haven't had to hire anyone for about 20 years now


>>>>> And Dare I bring up the Quality of Manuals?  So often, regardless of
>>>>> what Format it comes in, the information in the thing is totally Nuts!
>>>>> It doesn't make Sense, and you can't tell if it is a Translation of
>>>>> something in Chinese to English, or from Chinese to Spanish and then
>>>>> Russian, and then to English etc.


>>>>> And some manuals that come in English  are so poorly written, lack
>>>>> helpful information and seem to be missing a great deal of actual
>>>>> instructional information and are next to useless in any format.


>>>>> Grumpy Dave



















> --
> They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
> They ask: "How Happy are You?"
> I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


>

--
Ann K. Parsons
Portal Tutoring
EMAIL:  akp@...
Author of The Demmies: http://www.dldbooks.com/annparsons/
Portal Tutoring web site:  http://www.portaltutoring.info
Skype: Putertutor

"All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost."




Re: determining how much ram a laptop can handle with it's installed motherboard

Monte Single
 

Yes, there is a little utility you can download call the Belarc Advisor.

 

I think yo may find it at;

 

 

Just download, run it and you will get  a complete profile   of your hardware and software, including key codes for thing like windows, office, and other programs.

www.belarcadvisor.com

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io [mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io] On Behalf Of Keith S
Sent: March-07-20 2:54 PM
To: tech talk for the blind <main@TechTalk.groups.io>
Subject: [TechTalk] determining how much ram a laptop can handle with it's installed motherboard

 

Is there any way to determine how much ram a laptop can handle  with it's installed motherboard.

 

I used to build computers to spec when I was sighted, but that was over 17 years ago.

 

My laptop needs a major ram boost, but  I have never build or determined how much ram a motherboard can handle since I went blind

 

Thanks

 

Keith


locked Re: warning if you doing business

Monte Single
 

When I was younger, I mean in the last millennium, just when the space race started, the staff at the school for the blind where I went to at age 10, decided I should learn braille because my hand writing was so poor and I always had ink on my nose.
Of course I would try to cheat and read braille with my eyes.
Many of the teachers there were sighted and read all my work with their eyes.
I was a proficient braille writer very quickly but I never was a good braille reader.
Thanks to the list owner and moderator for letting us ramble.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io [mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io] On Behalf Of Evan Reese
Sent: March-07-20 3:01 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

I had forgotten about the Optacon in this discussion. I am fortunate enough to be able to have two of them, so I won't have to go without if I should have to send one back to Richard Oehm for repair. I hope he lives forever!
<smile>
I use one of mine every day for something.
So I read print via touch. I don't think anyone would say that I'm not reading when I use an Optacon to find out what's on a print page just because I'm using a different sense than sight.
Conversely, I knew teachers at the blind school I went to who read braille with their eyes. I don't think anyone would say they weren't reading either, even though braille is a different set of symbols from print, even more so in the case of contracted braille.
So using my own statements to argue that I am not really reading braille is a misinterpretation or misunderstanding of what I actually said.
Evan
-----Original Message-----
From: Carolyn Arnold
Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2020 3:20 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

When I was a medical secretary in a surgical pathology office, I used my Optacon for some dictionaries, code and drug books, patient name spelling - a lot of things. But, I had some Braille reference books and my slate and stylus for some note taking and personal filing. One of the doctors said that I worked, "in two languages."

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io [mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io] On Behalf Of Ron Canazzi
Sent: Saturday, March 7, 2020 12:38 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

Hi Evan,

Well this analysis while tightly argued, is like a biblical literalist that represents a false dialectic by only examining terminologies and factoids that support their own belief structure.

One falsehood of your argument is in semantics Since the perception of reading has been from time immemorial the use of one's eyes and printed material to intake facts derived by, thought of and/or written down by others. If so, then how is it that Braille can be thought of as the exact equivalent of print when it in fact is not. Not only is it not the same as a standard 26 character alphabet, but it also uses a different sense--that of the sense of touch to extract the ideas from the materials.

In a very strict sense of the syntactical world and using at least in part, your own rigid interpretation of 'reading' actually is, then you as a Braille reader really aren't reading in the classic sense of the word either.

That's why I believe that words serve only a function of communicating basic ideas and that there must be flexibility, discourse, investigation and relatively speaking a scientific type analysis of each and every issue for true knowledge to be obtained.

Once again, if the importance of what is known as reading is that we communicate ideas, then the mechanics as to what is defined as reading should be secondary to how the ideas are being transferred.


On 3/6/2020 9:06 PM, Evan Reese wrote:


Well, I would say that listening to an audio book is not the same as reading it, either in braille or print.
To illustrate, if I tell you a story, would you say that you had read it?
No. Now, what if I write down the story and read it to you, either in person or on the phone. Would you say that you had read it? I don’t think so.
Now, suppose I make a recording of me reading the story and send it to you.
Would you say that you had read it? The only difference is that, instead of reading it to you live, I’m reading it on tape, as we used to say.
So no, listening to someone read a book is not the same thing as reading it oneself. You may still get the information, but you didn’t read it if you listened to someone else read it.
I don’t think a synthetic voice makes any difference. True, it doesn’t know what it’s saying, but you still have an intermediary between yourself and the actual text, you’re still listening to (in this case), a computer translate the actual text into words. So, even though it doesn’t comprehend what it is translating, it is still reading to you in the strictest sense.
You are not reading when using a synthetic voice.
But language changes, definitions change over time. It may happen soon that people will say that they are actually reading when they are listening to a voice, any voice, whether human or synthetic, read to them. Many people already say that, so I think we’re on the way. I don’t care all that much. I’ve done it myself, said that I read a book when I actually listened to someone else read it. I don’t make a big deal out of it. But you asked for thoughts, and that’s what I actually believe, even if I speak off-handedly about reading audio books.
Evan

From: David Goldfield <mailto:david.goldfield@...>
Sent: Friday, March 06, 2020 6:58 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business


I'd like to address this topic of literacy when talking about whether or not a person is able or not able to read Braille. I wrote a blog post about this a while ago as these were questions which I was considering and I'd like to share this post with you if you have an interest in reading it. I'm afraid that it really doesn't answer these questions and, in fact, may raise a few additional ones that some of us might not have considered. Here is the post.




Consuming Books: Reading Vs. Listening


1 <https://davidgoldfield.wordpress.com/2017/05/14/168318/#comments>

This morning I was browsing my Facebook timeline and stumbled on a post from one of my friends who posed a very interesting question. The question has to do with the wording we use to convey how we consume audio books. My friend pointed out that she’s noticing a trend, both with blind and sighted readers, where they will use the verb “listen” instead of “read”, as in “I just finished listening to that book” as opposed to “I just finished reading that book”, as if consuming a book via audio isn’t quite the same as reading it.

First, I’ll provide a bit of background into my own life as an avid reader.
I learned how to read Braille when I was around four and how to write it not much later than that. I’ve always found reading Braille to be very easy and I’ve been reading books using Braille for about as long as I can remember. I remember the enjoyment I always felt going to my school library, browsing the many shelves of Braille books and being able to check out one or two books a week, which I always read quickly. Of course, there were many books, known as talking books, which were recorded on cassettes’ as well as on phonograph records. Talking books have been available for blind and visually impaired consumers to borrow since the 1930s, way before audio books became popular with sighted consumers. While I never hesitated to borrow a book on tape from my library, Braille was always my preferred medium and, when given a choice between Braille and audio, Braille was always what I chose.

As I’ve embraced new technologies the way I consume books has also changed.
Nearly all of the books which I consume are done so audibly and not in Braille. There are several reasons for this and they don’t apply to all readers who are blind. First, most of the books which I want to read are just not available in Braille. While the National Library Service <http://www.loc.gov/nls> produces many Braille books there are simply more titles available in an audio format. Even then the amount of books produced by NLS, while I greatly appreciate the work that they do, is a drop in the bucket compared to the amount of titles available from other suppliers.
Bookshare <http://www.bookshare.org/> , another specialized library for people with print disabilities, offers over half a million books and that number continues to increase. Learning Ally <http://www.learningally.org/> is another specialized library which I’ve used for over 35 years, offers around 80,000 human-narrated titles. Of course, mainstream book suppliers such as the Kindle store offer millions of books, with more constantly being added. These specialized and mainstream suppliers offer a much greater selection of books than what I am able to borrow from my local NLS affiliate.

Some readers will no doubt want to remind me of the fact that we do have Braille display technology, which will work both with my computer as well as with my phone. This is certainly true and a Braille display would certainly allow me to read books from any of these suppliers using the same Braille code that I enjoyed using with books printed on paper. However, there are reasons which, for me, make this an impractical solution.

First, Braille display technology, while readily available for many devices, is often costly. As an example, Freedom Scientific’s most inexpensive Braille display, the Focus 14 Blue, costs $1295.00. At this time spending over a thousand dollars for a Braille display is just not something which I could easily do, considering it’s a device that I don’t truly need. However, even if a Braille display magically dropped onto my desk the fact is that I do a lot of reading either on the train or lying in bed. Reading with a Braille display on a moving train, no matter how portable, is just too awkward. When I’m lying in bed and wanted to read a book it’s just so much easier to do this with a small phone and would prove to be a bit less convenient if I added even a 14-cell display.

Anyway, back to the topic. My friend was pointing out that she has noticed that many people say they’ve listened to a book as opposed to reading it if the book was consumed in an audio medium, such as an audio CD or listening to it with synthetic speech using the Kindle app. However, this also makes me think of how we often use the word “read” when we actually have listened to the book.

This raises some interesting questions. When it comes to books, is it fair to consider it reading regardless of how it’s consumed? There are probably some sighted people who feel that the only way to truly read a book is to do so by processing the printed material visually. Of course, as blind people we know this is certainly not the case. All of us would agree that processing the information with our fingers would just as validly be considered reading as processing the information with our eyes and, in that instance, there is no controversy. However, the wording sometimes changes when we shift from print on a page to either a human narrator or a synthetic voice coming from a pair of speakers or from our portable phones and tablets. If I consumed a book by listening to it with an app such as Voice Dream Reader, am I wrong to say that I’ve read the book? Most blind people would say that I’m not and I would tend to agree with them.

However, let’s say we have an individual who is blind who never learned how to read Braille. There are some valid reasons for why they might not have been taught how to read and write in Braille, such as having neuropathy in their fingers which would prevent them from being able to distinguish the dot patterns. In such a case, this blind individual would only be able to consume books in an audible format. Considering this, would we look at that blind person who didn’t know Braille and conclude, if only to ourselves, that this person was illiterate. We might not say that to their face in the course of normal conversation but do we consider a blind person who doesn’t know Braille to be illiterate? If the answer to that question is yes then can we say that this blind person, not knowing Braille, has “read” a book when it was consumed by listening. If we say no, then why is it acceptable for me to say that I’ve read a book and my hypothetical blind person could not say that, just because I can read Braille and he cannot.

Let’s take this a step further and consider a fully sighted person who, for one reason or another, never learned how to read print. There’s no doubt that we would conclude that this person would be considered illiterate.
Saying so is not meant as an insult but, in this case, is indisputable; someone who can’t read is illiterate. My hypothetical blind person might not have the ability to learn Braille and the sighted person could, with proper training, learn how to read print but, until that individual chooses to take classes in how to read, we would all agree that he’s illiterate. Given that fact, would we tend to disagree with the illiterate sighted person if he told us that he “read” a particular book by consuming it in an audible medium? Wouldn’t we think, “No, you didn’t really read that book, you listened to it.” If this is the case, then why is it OK for me, as a blind person who knows Braille, to tell people that I may have read the same book by consuming it in the exact same way but yet fewer people would think of challenging my word choices.

Admittedly, this isn’t the most important topic which should concern us. I don’t think about it all that much and it certainly doesn’t keep me up at night. However, I think these issues are important as it has really forced me to think about what we mean when we speak of what it means to be literate.



As an aside, the person who brought up this topic is one of the proprietors of Speeddots, <http://speeddots.com/> which sells various tactile screen protectors for your Apple iDevice. They also sell various Bluetooth accessories as well as rugged lightning cables with a life-time warranty.

So, how do you feel about this? For you, does listening to an audio book qualify as reading it? I’d love to hear your thoughts in the comments.

David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist JAWS Certified, 2019

WWW.DavidGoldfield.org <http://WWW.DavidGoldfield.org> On 3/6/2020 6:21 PM, Ron Canazzi wrote:


Now Brian,

I don't want to personalize this, but you say you're a good Braille reader now: correct? You say that people who use audio primarily aren't truly literate and you can tell by the way they write e-mails: is that what you're saying? Well let me be your teacher and quote and correct your own mistakes that you have made in your lengthy reply.

<spelling error> aAmen(I guess you are trying to say Amen to that or
something similar--note the repetition of the first letter A.)

<grammatical clumsiness> if you don't braille than you are not truly literate. (I guess you mean: if you don't know/use/are competent in, Braille then you are not truly literate.)

<run on sentence> If you doubt this then read emails from blind people who don't know braille there spelling and (There should be a period after the word Braille.)

<spelling error> gramar and punctuation leave alot to be desired. (In this sentence grammar and a lot are misspelled.)

<run on sentence> I have been there myself if I don't read then I to will fall in to trap as well. (There should be a period after the word myself.)

If you truly want to be literate then you just have <spelling error> toread and not just listen to audio. (there is a run on word toread that should be separated into 'to read.') Those of us who do prefer braille and would rather read than listen have only audio as the option all to often. For me if I want to stay literate then I have to read braille and as I said in my email to Grumpy Dave I can't <spelling error> amagine my life with out braille. (I guess you mean 'imagine my life without Braille.)

<wrong use of the word loose> I have had braille most of my life and I would loose independence (I guess you mean lose independence.)

<spelling error> ifI were to not know braille. (You ran the words If and I
together.)

Reading braille is active reading but listening to audio or computer speech is just passive reading.

I prefer to <spelling error> activly read but most of the time I can't because it's audio only. (You misspelled actively.)

<spelling errors and a run on sentence> I do rember haveing to cary volumes of braille books acrost campus at the blind school but I never gave it a
though it was just what I hav to do it was no problem for me at all. (You
misspelled remember, having, across and probably mean the word had when you wrote hav. And I almost forgot, you used the word though instead of
thought.) (There should be a period after the word thought.)

The campus at the Michigan school for the blind in Lansing Michigan covered a 4 city block area. I tried college back in 1987-1988 and I could have <spelling error> donee much better if I had braille. (You misspelled the word done.)

<spelling errors> I had tapes from recording forthe blind but I had issues
with the readers with pronouncations. (you ran the words for and the
together. You misspelled pronunciation.)

I remember taking test and what I heard during the test sounded nothing like what I heard on the tapes.

If I would have had my books in braille I would have known the correct words and the tests would have made <spelling error> sinse. (You misspelled the word sense.)

<spelling error> If yur going to read on tape then you must be able to speak
properly and say your words properly. (You misspelled the word you're--or
at least I think that's what you meant by writing the word yur.)

<grammatical oddity> There was the issue of only tape at a time and having to send 2 copies of every book to recording for the blind to be recorded.
(I'm not quite sure, but I think you meant 'only one tape at a time.)

<spelling error> Audio is usless if I don't know what you are saying. (You misspelled useless.)

This is why we need braille. Braille readers don't make a big deal of how many volumes a book is it just is.


LONG STORY SHORT: BRIAN, YOU ARE A POOR EXAMPLE OF THE IDEA THAT BRAILLE
READERS WRITE COHERENT AND GRAMATICALLY CORRECT E-MAIL MESSAGES.
On 3/6/2020 3:01 PM, brian wrote:


aAmen if you don't braille than you are not truly literate. If you doubt
this then read emails from blind people who don't know braille there
spelling and gramar and punctuation leave alot to be desired. I have been
there myself if I don't read then I to will fall in to trap as well. If you
truly want to be literate then you just have toread and not just listen to
audio. Those of us who do prefer braille and would rather read than listen
have only audio as the option all to often. For me if I want to stay
literate then I have to read braille and as I said in my email to Grumpy
Dave I can't amagine my life with out braille. I have had braille most of
my life and I would loose independence ifI were to not know braille.
Reading braille is active reading but listening to audio or computer speech
is just passive reading. I prefer to activly read but most of the time I
can't because it's audio only. I do rember haveing to cary volumes of
braille books acrost campus at the blind school but I never gave it a though
it was just what I hav to do it was no problem for me at all. The campus at
the Michigan school for the blind in Lansing Michigan covered a 4 city block
area. I tried college back in 1987-1988 and I could have donee much better
if I had braille. I had tapes from recording forthe blind but I had issues
with the readers with pronouncations. I remember taking test and what I
heard during the test sounded nothing like what I heard on the tapes. If I
would have had my books in braille I would have known the correct words and
the tests would have made sinse. If yur going to read on tape then you must
be able to speak properly and say your words properly. There was the issue
of only tape at a time and having to send 2 copies of every book to
recording for the blind to be recorded. Audio is usless if I don't know
what you are saying. This is why we need braille. Braille readers don't
make a big deal of how many volumes a book is it just is.

Brian Sackrider

On 3/6/2020 7:26 AM, chris judge wrote:


This is true. There is a huge difference between not learning braille if
you've lost your site later in life. The unfortunate fact is that even
people who are blind since birth are not learning braille at the rate they
were when I was a kid 50 years ago. If you are blind since birth and you
don't learn braille you miss out on basic literacy. How do you learn proper
spelling, grammar, punctuation and such if you don't learn braile. If you
have had site you already understand these things so knowing braille isn't
as paramount.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io>
mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io On Behalf Of Victor
Sent: March 6, 2020 12:42 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io <mailto:main@techtalk.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

Hello everyone:

I would like to point out that many blind people lose their eyesight later
in life and they find it too difficult to learn braille. It is much easier
for them to access information by listening to audio. It’s hard enough for
them to get over losing their eyesight and live without seeing their loved
ones or other things ever again. The last thing they want is to learn a new
skill that they may find just too difficult.

After obtaining my iPhone, I attended a users group where are the people
taught each other to use iOS devices. While at the group one day, one of the
group leaders brought a focus 40 refreshable braille display for everyone to
examine. I was the only blind person in the room interested in touching the
device because I knew braille and I owned a previous generation of that
device. It was not discussed, but I knew that they were not interested
because most of them had lost their eyesight later in life. I suspect that
they found it much easier to listen to audio than reading braille. Plus,
most of them had learned how to access information using their iPhones. I’m
sure they found it much easier to whip out their iPhones and listen to their
books, podcasts, scan documents and do everything else we can do with our
iPhones. I realize that not everyone owns a smart phone because they have
not found a way to obtain one. I also realize that not everyone is into
these types of gadgets. However, many blind people have discovered how great
these gadgets are and how useful they can be in helping them become more
independent. For many of us, that is the route we have chosen.

In any case, don’t be too surprised if you meet a blind person who is not
interested in learning braille. Don’t be too hard on those people. Maybe
they just prefer to do what is easier.

I am so glad that refreshable braille displays exist now. I am also glad
that low cost refreshable braille displays are being developed. I definitely
don’t miss the days of carrying bulky braille books to and from my classes.
I do not miss the days of trying to look up words in the dictionary and
dealing with a whole bookshelf of braille books. No thank you! I do not miss
my five volume braille New Testament.

If I did not already on a refreshable braille display, I would definitely
look into obtaining the orbit braille reader or the braille me.


Anyhow, these are just my rambling opinions.

Victor Sent from my iPhone



On Mar 5, 2020, at 7:40 PM, brian mailto:bsackrider55@... wrote:

 Thanks Grumpy Dave for your explination. I would be willing to pay a
few dollars to get braille. I am not saying that I should get for free but
not to have the option is my complaint. My local liberary use to provide
braille for 10 cents per page. I was also told that if I provided the
paper they would braille what I wanted. They required 67 weight paper which
I can get at Staples. All to often we are forced to except only audio as
the only format that is available. Braille will always be my prefered format
because I prefer to read for myself instead of just listen. You say that
you hate braille but you can use it well I feel the same about audio. Why do
we have to be locked in to just one format? How many people would rather
read than listen? Blind or sighted. People who prefer to read than should
be commended instead of being kind of bashed for it. If not many blind
people request braille than it should be no trouble to provide it. Braille
is not that dificult to produce once you have the equipment. my liberary
had no trouble all they needed was files in microsoft word and the paper and
they were good to go. I use to get my weekly meterials for my church all in
grade 2 braille. It was really great to finally be an active participant in
the service instead just a pasive listener. To be able to read along with
everyone else the verses and hyms and classes lessons is a great feeling you
just can't discribe the independence that it givesyou. It's kind of like
having access to dvs you can finally know what is going on when there is all
of that dead air. I was able to read infront of the church and be active in
bible study and even lead the groop all using braille. I do use braille
menus when ever possible even if I don't really need it just to let them see
that somone is acually using it. Braille has given me a very full life and
I don't know whear my life would be with out braille. I feel that every
blind person who is able to read braille should learn it. I do understand
that there are blind people who have medical conditions that prevents them
from being able to read braille. For them they have no choice but to use
audio but I do have the choice I just don't like being limited to just audio
only and not braille. You hate braille and I hate audio. a good example of
when I wish that I had braille instead of a file was when I requested my
local newspaper to be accessable. my lions club purchassed a sara reading
machine for me there was no braille manual but there was a print manual. I
had to go to the help file on the machine and try to find what I wanted.
When I called the paper office they asked what files my machine could read.
If I had a braille manual I could have just looked it up while on the phone
and gave them the answer. I had to call back after I went to the help file
and found it. This is very time concuming I can look up somthing much
faster in braille than any other format. I am not saying that I can do it
as quick as a sighted person can with print but for me it's the fastest way
for me to get the job done. When I was a kid I attended the Michigan school
the blind in Lansing and we had to learn braille and all of our books were
in braille. There was no I don't want to learn it you had to. I will say
that I can certainly listen much faster than I can read but when it comes to
looking up somthing braille is faster hands down. I have been blind since
birth and thats all I ever knew was braille. It's like the sighted grew up
with print. I wanted to learn the opticon at the rehab center but they
would not let me because they said that I was not fast enough. I felt that
I was learning and making progress and I should had the right to continue
but they said no. If somone really wants to learn a new skil then they
should beallowed to do so. If I am determind to learn somthing that then I
will even though it might take more time then the teacher would like. I
guess that modavation means nothing. If somone reallly wants to learn
braille so what ifit takes several month to do so they should not be told no
you can't continue. If companies had the equipment to produce braille they
could charge me for the cost of the paper to get braille manuals or
catalogs.



On 3/5/2020 9:26 PM, Dave wrote:
Hello Brian,


I have nothing against Braille other than the hassle it is to create
it, such as a Manual in Braille.


I've been blind for a long time now, and there were many times when I
would have Kissed the Feet of anyone who gave me a manual in Audio
format. many times have I had to just Wing it, learning by Guess and
by Golly. Once Computers became a Tool for the Blind, Guessing was
not always the best thing to do, as guessing wrong could ruin your
day in a Big way. Still can.


but, Brian, I have no Beef with Braille. To produce it is just not an
easy task. And I would guess that most manufacturers of items for
the blind, may not want to hire another Staff member to do nothing
but print out Manuals in Braille.


Yes, it all sounds good, until the costs of doing such a thing is
considered.


These days, I do expect a Manual at least in a PDF format, if not an
Audio file. And if I own my own Braille Printer, I can then print
out the PDF file.


Although, I can't afford one of those printers, so I do without.


However, I could run the Audio file through an Audio to Text
converter, and then print that file out in Braille.


When I get nothing but an On Line Manual, where I need to go On Line
to read the thing. I am Thankful for at least that much, but I
always look to see if I can just download the manual so I don't need
to be going On Line so much.


Call it my personal Taste.


I would think most who are Blind have learned over and over again to
look for Work Arounds for doing many things in Life.


You like Braille, and while I do use it, I Hate it. So a Braille
Manual would be a waste of resources to send me one.


You Love it, and can use it well. So, when the Company doesn't send
a manual in Braille, but has sent you one in PDF, or even Audio, if
you want a manual in Braille, the Work around is to convert that Audio or
PDF file into Braille. And if you are like me, and can't afford a
Braille Printer, there are Services that will take your Manual file
and make you a manual in Braille.


it may cost you a few dollars, which again is all part of the Life of
someone who is Blind. In the past, I have hired Readers to read
Manuals on Tape. Paid them $10 for every hour of Recorded material.


I've paid people to read my Mail. This was before smart Phones had
built in Cameras and OCR programs. I paid them $10 an hour too. this
was back in the 1980's and 90's.


I haven't had to hire anyone for about 20 years now


And Dare I bring up the Quality of Manuals? So often, regardless of
what Format it comes in, the information in the thing is totally Nuts!
It doesn't make Sense, and you can't tell if it is a Translation of
something in Chinese to English, or from Chinese to Spanish and then
Russian, and then to English etc.


And some manuals that come in English are so poorly written, lack
helpful information and seem to be missing a great deal of actual
instructional information and are next to useless in any format.


Grumpy Dave






















--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


locked Re: warning if you doing business

Ann Parsons
 

Hi all,

He made a mistake. So did everyone who replied publicly. Nobody's perfect, only God.

Ann P.


Original message:

Sorry Ann, but learning differences don't excuse his nastiness and
personal attacks on list, andc, he did stick his foot in his mouth
with his error-laden messages while claiming literacy due to his using
Braille.
Laz
On 3/7/20, Ann Parsons <akp@...> wrote:
Hi all,
No, he is not a troll. He has learning differences. Deal!
Ann P.

Original message:
I'm sorry, but this message is difficult to read. Is this a self-troll?
Cristóbal
-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of brian
Sent: Friday, March 6, 2020 12:01 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business
aAmen if you don't braille than you are not truly literate. If you
doubt this then read emails from blind people who don't know braille
there spelling and gramar and punctuation leave alot to be desired. I
have been there myself if I don't read then I to will fall in to trap
as well. If you truly want to be literate then you just have toread
and not just listen to audio. Those of us who do prefer braille and
would rather read than listen have only audio as the option all to
often. For me if I want to stay literate then I have to read braille
and as I said in my email to Grumpy Dave I can't amagine my life with
out braille. I have had braille most of my life and I would loose
independence ifI were to not know braille. Reading braille is active
reading but listening to audio or computer speech is just passive
reading. I prefer to activly read but most of the time I can't because
it's audio only. I do rember haveing to cary volumes of braille books
acrost campus at the blind school but I never gave it a though it was
just what I hav to do it was no problem for me at all. The campus at
the Michigan school for the blind in Lansing Michigan covered a 4 city
block area. I tried college back in 1987-1988 and I could have donee
much better if I had braille. I had tapes from recording forthe blind
but I had issues with the readers with pronouncations. I remember
taking test and what I heard during the test sounded nothing like what
I heard on the tapes. If I would have had my books in braille I would
have known the correct words and the tests would have made sinse. If
yur going to read on tape then you must be able to speak properly and
say your words properly. There was the issue of only tape at a time
and having to send 2 copies of every book to recording for the blind to
be recorded. Audio is usless if I don't know what you are saying. This
is why we need braille. Braille readers don't make a big deal of how
many volumes a book is it just is.
Brian Sackrider
On 3/6/2020 7:26 AM, chris judge wrote:
This is true. There is a huge difference between not learning braille
if you've lost your site later in life. The unfortunate fact is that
even people who are blind since birth are not learning braille at the
rate they were when I was a kid 50 years ago. If you are blind since
birth and you don't learn braille you miss out on basic literacy. How
do you learn proper spelling, grammar, punctuation and such if you
don't learn braile. If you have had site you already understand these
things so knowing braille isn't as paramount.
-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of
Victor
Sent: March 6, 2020 12:42 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business
Hello everyone:
I would like to point out that many blind people lose their eyesight
later in life and they find it too difficult to learn braille. It is
much easier for them to access information by listening to audio. It’s
hard enough for them to get over losing their eyesight and live without
seeing their loved ones or other things ever again. The last thing they
want is to learn a new skill that they may find just too difficult.
After obtaining my iPhone, I attended a users group where are the
people taught each other to use iOS devices. While at the group one
day, one of the group leaders brought a focus 40 refreshable braille
display for everyone to examine. I was the only blind person in the
room interested in touching the device because I knew braille and I
owned a previous generation of that device. It was not discussed, but I
knew that they were not interested because most of them had lost their
eyesight later in life. I suspect that they found it much easier to
listen to audio than reading braille. Plus, most of them had learned
how to access information using their iPhones. I’m sure they found it
much easier to whip out their iPhones and listen to their books,
podcasts, scan documents and do everything else we can do with our
iPhones. I realize that not everyone owns a smart phone because they
have not found a way to obtain one. I also realize that not everyone is
into these types of gadgets. However, many blind people have discovered
how great these gadgets are and how useful they can be in helping them
become more independent. For many of us, that is the route we have
chosen.
In any case, don’t be too surprised if you meet a blind person who is
not interested in learning braille. Don’t be too hard on those people.
Maybe they just prefer to do what is easier.
I am so glad that refreshable braille displays exist now. I am also
glad that low cost refreshable braille displays are being developed. I
definitely don’t miss the days of carrying bulky braille books to and
from my classes. I do not miss the days of trying to look up words in
the dictionary and dealing with a whole bookshelf of braille books. No
thank you! I do not miss my five volume braille New Testament.
If I did not already on a refreshable braille display, I would
definitely look into obtaining the orbit braille reader or the braille
me.

Anyhow, these are just my rambling opinions.
Victor Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 5, 2020, at 7:40 PM, brian <bsackrider55@...> wrote:
 Thanks Grumpy Dave for your explination. I would be willing to
pay a few dollars to get braille. I am not saying that I should get for
free but not to have the option is my complaint. My local liberary use
to provide braille for 10 cents per page. I was also told that if I
provided the paper they would braille what I wanted. They required 67
weight paper which I can get at Staples. All to often we are forced to
except only audio as the only format that is available. Braille will
always be my prefered format because I prefer to read for myself
instead of just listen. You say that you hate braille but you can use
it well I feel the same about audio. Why do we have to be locked in to
just one format? How many people would rather read than listen? Blind
or sighted. People who prefer to read than should be commended instead
of being kind of bashed for it. If not many blind people request
braille than it should be no trouble to provide it. Braille is not that
dificult to produce once you have the equipment. my liberary had no
trouble all they needed was files in microsoft word and the paper and
they were good to go. I use to get my weekly meterials for my church
all in grade 2 braille. It was really great to finally be an active
participant in the service instead just a pasive listener. To be able
to read along with everyone else the verses and hyms and classes
lessons is a great feeling you just can't discribe the independence
that it givesyou. It's kind of like having access to dvs you can
finally know what is going on when there is all of that dead air. I
was able to read infront of the church and be active in bible study and
even lead the groop all using braille. I do use braille menus when
ever possible even if I don't really need it just to let them see that
somone is acually using it. Braille has given me a very full life and
I don't know whear my life would be with out braille. I feel that
every blind person who is able to read braille should learn it. I do
understand that there are blind people who have medical conditions that
prevents them from being able to read braille. For them they have no
choice but to use audio but I do have the choice I just don't like
being limited to just audio only and not braille. You hate braille and
I hate audio. a good example of when I wish that I had braille instead
of a file was when I requested my local newspaper to be accessable. my
lions club purchassed a sara reading machine for me there was no
braille manual but there was a print manual. I had to go to the help
file on the machine and try to find what I wanted. When I called the
paper office they asked what files my machine could read. If I had a
braille manual I could have just looked it up while on the phone and
gave them the answer. I had to call back after I went to the help file
and found it. This is very time concuming I can look up somthing much
faster in braille than any other format. I am not saying that I can do
it as quick as a sighted person can with print but for me it's the
fastest way for me to get the job done. When I was a kid I attended
the Michigan school the blind in Lansing and we had to learn braille
and all of our books were in braille. There was no I don't want to
learn it you had to. I will say that I can certainly listen much
faster than I can read but when it comes to looking up somthing braille
is faster hands down. I have been blind since birth and thats all I
ever knew was braille. It's like the sighted grew up with print. I
wanted to learn the opticon at the rehab center but they would not let
me because they said that I was not fast enough. I felt that I was
learning and making progress and I should had the right to continue but
they said no. If somone really wants to learn a new skil then they
should beallowed to do so. If I am determind to learn somthing that
then I will even though it might take more time then the teacher would
like. I guess that modavation means nothing. If somone reallly wants
to learn braille so what ifit takes several month to do so they should
not be told no you can't continue. If companies had the equipment to
produce braille they could charge me for the cost of the paper to get
braille manuals or catalogs.
On 3/5/2020 9:26 PM, Dave wrote:
Hello Brian,

I have nothing against Braille other than the hassle it is to create
it, such as a Manual in Braille.

I've been blind for a long time now, and there were many times when
I would have Kissed the Feet of anyone who gave me a manual in Audio
format. many times have I had to just Wing it, learning by Guess
and by Golly. Once Computers became a Tool for the Blind, Guessing
was not always the best thing to do, as guessing wrong could ruin
your day in a Big way. Still can.

but, Brian, I have no Beef with Braille. To produce it is just not an
easy task. And I would guess that most manufacturers of items for
the blind, may not want to hire another Staff member to do nothing
but print out Manuals in Braille.

Yes, it all sounds good, until the costs of doing such a thing is
considered.

These days, I do expect a Manual at least in a PDF format, if not an
Audio file. And if I own my own Braille Printer, I can then print
out the PDF file.

Although, I can't afford one of those printers, so I do without.

However, I could run the Audio file through an Audio to Text
converter, and then print that file out in Braille.

When I get nothing but an On Line Manual, where I need to go On Line
to read the thing. I am Thankful for at least that much, but I
always look to see if I can just download the manual so I don't need
to be going On Line so much.

Call it my personal Taste.

I would think most who are Blind have learned over and over again to
look for Work Arounds for doing many things in Life.

You like Braille, and while I do use it, I Hate it. So a Braille
Manual would be a waste of resources to send me one.

You Love it, and can use it well. So, when the Company doesn't send
a manual in Braille, but has sent you one in PDF, or even Audio, if
you want a manual in Braille, the Work around is to convert that Audio
or
PDF file into Braille. And if you are like me, and can't afford a
Braille Printer, there are Services that will take your Manual file
and make you a manual in Braille.

it may cost you a few dollars, which again is all part of the Life
of someone who is Blind. In the past, I have hired Readers to read
Manuals on Tape. Paid them $10 for every hour of Recorded material.

I've paid people to read my Mail. This was before smart Phones had
built in Cameras and OCR programs. I paid them $10 an hour too. this
was back in the 1980's and 90's.

I haven't had to hire anyone for about 20 years now

And Dare I bring up the Quality of Manuals? So often, regardless of
what Format it comes in, the information in the thing is totally Nuts!
It doesn't make Sense, and you can't tell if it is a Translation of
something in Chinese to English, or from Chinese to Spanish and then
Russian, and then to English etc.

And some manuals that come in English are so poorly written, lack
helpful information and seem to be missing a great deal of actual
instructional information and are next to useless in any format.

Grumpy Dave




















--
Ann K. Parsons
Portal Tutoring
EMAIL: akp@...
Author of The Demmies: http://www.dldbooks.com/annparsons/
Portal Tutoring web site: http://www.portaltutoring.info
Skype: Putertutor
"All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost."





--
Affordably priced Accessible Talking MP3 Players, Accessible phones,
Bluetooth devices, and accessories
http://www.talkingmp3players.com/
Email: laz@...
Phone: 727-498-0121
Skype: lazmesa
Personal Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/laz.mesa
Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/Talkingmp3players?_rdr
--
Ann K. Parsons
Portal Tutoring
EMAIL: akp@...
Author of The Demmies: http://www.dldbooks.com/annparsons/
Portal Tutoring web site: http://www.portaltutoring.info
Skype: Putertutor

"All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost."


locked Re: warning if you doing business

Ann Parsons
 

Hi,

Yes, get an Orbit 20.

Ann P.

--
Ann K. Parsons
Portal Tutoring
EMAIL: akp@...
Author of The Demmies: http://www.dldbooks.com/annparsons/
Portal Tutoring web site: http://www.portaltutoring.info
Skype: Putertutor

"All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost."


locked Re: warning if you doing business

Ann Parsons
 

Hi all,

No, I am not making unsupported statements. First, after being a tutor to both sighted and blind students in English and in Social Studies, as well as in braille and adaptive computers, since 1978, I'm well acquainted with the signs of writing by persons who have learning differences. They are similar to the ways people who are DeafBlind write, so I wasn't sure which we're dealing with. Hmmm, let me see, 1978 was forty-two years ago now. Good Lord, that's a lot of experience! I'm still tutoring.

Although he may be rushing to write his responses, his writing has been consistent during the time I've observed him on various lists. This is not a single occurrance.

As for the coasting, he admits it himself in his message. He said that his teachers never told him his writing was less than adequate. That, Gene, my friend, is the behavior of teachers who allow PWD to coast through school.

If you want to check out my creds, you can look at my web site below. On there is a link called Instructor. Have a look.

Ann P.




Original message:

You are making unsupported statements. How do you know Brian has learning differences? How do you know he was coasted through school? I'll offer an alternative explanation. I'm not saying either are correct nor am I saying which one may or may not account for observed phenomena better. But how do you know that some or many of these errors are not the result of someone feeling strongly about something and rushing to get the message written as quickly as possible? If Brian is typing far above the speed at which he types more accurately, that may result in some of what is observed. And, since I've seen messages from Brian that don't have all these mistakes, I'll consider my theory to be a possibly better explanation, since I don't know Brian's background and I think it is absurd to infer some sort of learning differences based on a few e-mails.
But none of this, learning differences, spelling difficulties, a rush to type as quickly as you can to get your message out as fast as possible, none of these possibilities precludes the use of a spell checker.
To this point, I have been writing as a list member. I am now writing as the list owner.
This discussion has been very interesting and we know more about each other than we did, thus helping build community on the list. But if the discussion becomes mostly one of how messages are written, I'll close it. I realize that you and a few others may want to respond to what I and others have said but this part of the discussion shouldn't continue for more than a few more messages.
Now, I'm writing as a list member again.
Brian, I would think it may be uncomfortable seeing your writing critiqued. But keep these things in mind and you may find the experience useful:
My view is that if I expect someone to spend the time reading my messages and thinking about them, I have a certain responsibility to make them reasonably readable. In your case, many people probably have to stop to review phrases where words are written together without spaces. Because I've seen messages from you that are much better written, it appears to me that if you get emotional about a subject, you rush to write what you want as quickly as you can. the result is errors that make your messages difficult to read, such as words written together with no spaces.
As to spelling, in general I would just let that go. But when you call a whole class of people illiterate, then don't use a spellchecker and have misspelled wordafter misspelled word, then, like it or not, you become part of the discussion. Like it or not, literacy is partly sending a message without perhaps thirty or forty or more misspelled words. And nothing precludes you from using a spellchecker. As I said, in general I wouldn't comment on spelling, but it is inevitable that at least a few people will when you accuse people of being illiterate and don't use a spell checker, resulting in a great many misspellings. It's as though I attended a cooking contest, made a speech before the event in which I said that with frozen dinners, no one knows how to cook anymore, then I burned the soup and my main dish.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Ann Parsons <mailto:akp@...>
Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2020 6:27 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io <mailto:main@techtalk.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business
Hi all,
I could write a long rant about how I am treated when I correct
people's spelling publicly. I have been called harsh and arrogant and
more. I won't do that because it would be counter-productive. I will
say, however, that taking advantage of someone who has made a public
mistake is, I feel, cruel. it demeans those who perpetuate such crimes.
If you wish to correct Brian's writing, you might do so privately,
thereby giving him the dignity he deserves. It isn't his fault that he
was coasted through school. It isn't his fault that he may not have a
braille display or possess hard copy braille so that he could improve
his writing.
If you want to help, take it off-list! Truly be of service and not
part of the problem.
Ann P.

Original message:
Now Brian,
I don't want to personalize this, but you say you're a good
Braille reader now: correct? You say that people who use audio
primarily aren't truly literate and you can tell by the way they write
e-mails: is that what you're saying? Well let me be your teacher and
quote and correct your own mistakes that you have made in your lengthy
reply.
<spelling error> aAmen(I guess you are trying to say Amen to that or
something similar--note the repetition of the first letter A.)
<grammatical clumsiness> if you don't braille than you are not truly
literate. (I guess you mean: if you don't know/use/are competent in,
Braille then you are not truly literate.)
<run on sentence> If you doubt this then read emails from blind people
who don't know braille there spelling and (There should be a period
after the word Braille.)
<spelling error> gramar and punctuation leave alot to be desired. (In
this sentence grammar and a lot are misspelled.)
<run on sentence> I have been there myself if I don't read then I to
will fall in to trap as well. (There should be a period after the word
myself.)
If you truly want to be literate then you just have
<spelling error> toread and not just listen to audio. (there is a run
on word toread that should be separated into 'to read.')
Those of us who do prefer braille and would rather read than listen
have only audio as the option all to often. For me if I want to stay
literate then I have to read braille and as I said in my email to Grumpy
Dave I can't
<spelling error> amagine my life with out braille. (I guess you mean
'imagine my life without Braille.)
<wrong use of the word loose> I have had braille most of my life and I
would loose independence (I guess you mean lose independence.)
<spelling error> ifI were to not know braille. (You ran the words If
and I together.)
Reading braille is active reading but listening to audio or computer
speech is just passive reading.
I prefer to <spelling error> activly read but most of the time I can't
because it's audio only. (You misspelled actively.)
<spelling errors and a run on sentence> I do rember haveing to cary
volumes of braille books acrost campus at the blind school but I never
gave it a though it was just what I hav to do it was no problem for me
at all. (You misspelled remember, having, across and probably mean the
word had when you wrote hav. And I almost forgot, you used the word
though instead of thought.) (There should be a period after the word
thought.)
The campus at the Michigan school for the blind in Lansing Michigan
covered a 4 city block area. I tried college back in 1987-1988 and I
could have
<spelling error> donee much better if I had braille. (You misspelled
the word done.)
<spelling errors> I had tapes from recording forthe blind but I had
issues with the readers with pronouncations. (you ran the words for
and the together. You misspelled pronunciation.)
I remember taking test and what I heard during the test sounded nothing
like what I heard on the tapes.
If I would have had my books in braille I would have known the correct
words and the tests would have made <spelling error> sinse. (You
misspelled the word sense.)
<spelling error> If yur going to read on tape then you must be able to
speak properly and say your words properly. (You misspelled the word
you're--or at least I think that's what you meant by writing the word yur.)
<grammatical oddity> There was the issue of only tape at a time and
having to send 2 copies of every book to recording for the blind to be
recorded. (I'm not quite sure, but I think you meant 'only one tape at
a time.)
<spelling error> Audio is usless if I don't know what you are saying.
(You misspelled useless.)
This is why we need braille. Braille readers don't make a big deal of
how many volumes a book is it just is.

LONG STORY SHORT: BRIAN, YOU ARE A POOR EXAMPLE OF THE IDEA THAT BRAILLE
READERS WRITE COHERENT AND GRAMATICALLY CORRECT E-MAIL MESSAGES.
On 3/6/2020 3:01 PM, brian wrote:
aAmen if you don't braille than you are not truly literate. If you
doubt this then read emails from blind people who don't know braille
there spelling and gramar and punctuation leave alot to be desired. I
have been there myself if I don't read then I to will fall in to trap
as well. If you truly want to be literate then you just have toread
and not just listen to audio. Those of us who do prefer braille and
would rather read than listen have only audio as the option all to
often. For me if I want to stay literate then I have to read braille
and as I said in my email to Grumpy Dave I can't amagine my life with
out braille. I have had braille most of my life and I would loose
independence ifI were to not know braille. Reading braille is active
reading but listening to audio or computer speech is just passive
reading. I prefer to activly read but most of the time I can't
because it's audio only. I do rember haveing to cary volumes of
braille books acrost campus at the blind school but I never gave it a
though it was just what I hav to do it was no problem for me at all.
The campus at the Michigan school for the blind in Lansing Michigan
covered a 4 city block area. I tried college back in 1987-1988 and I
could have donee much better if I had braille. I had tapes from
recording forthe blind but I had issues with the readers with
pronouncations. I remember taking test and what I heard during the
test sounded nothing like what I heard on the tapes. If I would have
had my books in braille I would have known the correct words and the
tests would have made sinse. If yur going to read on tape then you
must be able to speak properly and say your words properly. There was
the issue of only tape at a time and having to send 2 copies of every
book to recording for the blind to be recorded. Audio is usless if I
don't know what you are saying. This is why we need braille. Braille
readers don't make a big deal of how many volumes a book is it just is.
Brian Sackrider
On 3/6/2020 7:26 AM, chris judge wrote:
This is true. There is a huge difference between not learning braille
if you've lost your site later in life. The unfortunate fact is that
even people who are blind since birth are not learning braille at the
rate they were when I was a kid 50 years ago. If you are blind since
birth and you don't learn braille you miss out on basic literacy. How
do you learn proper spelling, grammar, punctuation and such if you
don't learn braile. If you have had site you already understand these
things so knowing braille isn't as paramount.
-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io> <main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io>> On Behalf Of
Victor
Sent: March 6, 2020 12:42 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io <mailto:main@techtalk.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business
Hello everyone:
I would like to point out that many blind people lose their eyesight
later in life and they find it too difficult to learn braille. It is
much easier for them to access information by listening to audio.
It’s hard enough for them to get over losing their eyesight and live
without seeing their loved ones or other things ever again. The last
thing they want is to learn a new skill that they may find just too
difficult.
After obtaining my iPhone, I attended a users group where are the
people taught each other to use iOS devices. While at the group one
day, one of the group leaders brought a focus 40 refreshable braille
display for everyone to examine. I was the only blind person in the
room interested in touching the device because I knew braille and I
owned a previous generation of that device. It was not discussed, but
I knew that they were not interested because most of them had lost
their eyesight later in life. I suspect that they found it much
easier to listen to audio than reading braille. Plus, most of them
had learned how to access information using their iPhones. I’m sure
they found it much easier to whip out their iPhones and listen to
their books, podcasts, scan documents and do everything else we can
do with our iPhones. I realize that not everyone owns a smart phone
because they have not found a way to obtain one. I also realize that
not everyone is into these types of gadgets. However, many blind
people have discovered how great these gadgets are and how useful
they can be in helping them become more independent. For many of us,
that is the route we have chosen.
In any case, don’t be too surprised if you meet a blind person who is
not interested in learning braille. Don’t be too hard on those
people. Maybe they just prefer to do what is easier.
I am so glad that refreshable braille displays exist now. I am also
glad that low cost refreshable braille displays are being developed.
I definitely don’t miss the days of carrying bulky braille books to
and from my classes. I do not miss the days of trying to look up
words in the dictionary and dealing with a whole bookshelf of braille
books. No thank you! I do not miss my five volume braille New Testament.
If I did not already on a refreshable braille display, I would
definitely look into obtaining the orbit braille reader or the
braille me.

Anyhow, these are just my rambling opinions.
Victor Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 5, 2020, at 7:40 PM, brian <bsackrider55@... <mailto:bsackrider55@...>> wrote:
 Thanks Grumpy Dave for your explination. I would be willing to
pay a few dollars to get braille. I am not saying that I should get
for free but not to have the option is my complaint. My local
liberary use to provide braille for 10 cents per page. I was also
told that if I provided the paper they would braille what I wanted.
They required 67 weight paper which I can get at Staples. All to
often we are forced to except only audio as the only format that is
available. Braille will always be my prefered format because I
prefer to read for myself instead of just listen. You say that you
hate braille but you can use it well I feel the same about audio.
Why do we have to be locked in to just one format? How many people
would rather read than listen? Blind or sighted. People who prefer
to read than should be commended instead of being kind of bashed for
it. If not many blind people request braille than it should be no
trouble to provide it. Braille is not that dificult to produce once
you have the equipment. my liberary had no trouble all they needed
was files in microsoft word and the paper and they were good to go.
I use to get my weekly meterials for my church all in grade 2
braille. It was really great to finally be an active participant in
the service instead just a pasive listener. To be able to read
along with everyone else the verses and hyms and classes lessons is
a great feeling you just can't discribe the independence that it
givesyou. It's kind of like having access to dvs you can finally
know what is going on when there is all of that dead air. I was
able to read infront of the church and be active in bible study and
even lead the groop all using braille. I do use braille menus when
ever possible even if I don't really need it just to let them see
that somone is acually using it. Braille has given me a very full
life and I don't know whear my life would be with out braille. I
feel that every blind person who is able to read braille should
learn it. I do understand that there are blind people who have
medical conditions that prevents them from being able to read
braille. For them they have no choice but to use audio but I do
have the choice I just don't like being limited to just audio only
and not braille. You hate braille and I hate audio. a good example
of when I wish that I had braille instead of a file was when I
requested my local newspaper to be accessable. my lions club
purchassed a sara reading machine for me there was no braille manual
but there was a print manual. I had to go to the help file on the
machine and try to find what I wanted. When I called the paper
office they asked what files my machine could read. If I had a
braille manual I could have just looked it up while on the phone and
gave them the answer. I had to call back after I went to the help
file and found it. This is very time concuming I can look up
somthing much faster in braille than any other format. I am not
saying that I can do it as quick as a sighted person can with print
but for me it's the fastest way for me to get the job done. When I
was a kid I attended the Michigan school the blind in Lansing and we
had to learn braille and all of our books were in braille. There
was no I don't want to learn it you had to. I will say that I can
certainly listen much faster than I can read but when it comes to
looking up somthing braille is faster hands down. I have been blind
since birth and thats all I ever knew was braille. It's like the
sighted grew up with print. I wanted to learn the opticon at the
rehab center but they would not let me because they said that I was
not fast enough. I felt that I was learning and making progress and
I should had the right to continue but they said no. If somone
really wants to learn a new skil then they should beallowed to do
so. If I am determind to learn somthing that then I will even
though it might take more time then the teacher would like. I guess
that modavation means nothing. If somone reallly wants to learn
braille so what ifit takes several month to do so they should not be
told no you can't continue. If companies had the equipment to
produce braille they could charge me for the cost of the paper to
get braille manuals or catalogs.
On 3/5/2020 9:26 PM, Dave wrote:
Hello Brian,

I have nothing against Braille other than the hassle it is to create
it, such as a Manual in Braille.

I've been blind for a long time now, and there were many times when I
would have Kissed the Feet of anyone who gave me a manual in Audio
format. many times have I had to just Wing it, learning by Guess and
by Golly. Once Computers became a Tool for the Blind, Guessing was
not always the best thing to do, as guessing wrong could ruin your
day in a Big way. Still can.

but, Brian, I have no Beef with Braille. To produce it is just
not an
easy task. And I would guess that most manufacturers of items for
the blind, may not want to hire another Staff member to do nothing
but print out Manuals in Braille.

Yes, it all sounds good, until the costs of doing such a thing is
considered.

These days, I do expect a Manual at least in a PDF format, if not an
Audio file. And if I own my own Braille Printer, I can then print
out the PDF file.

Although, I can't afford one of those printers, so I do without.

However, I could run the Audio file through an Audio to Text
converter, and then print that file out in Braille.

When I get nothing but an On Line Manual, where I need to go On Line
to read the thing. I am Thankful for at least that much, but I
always look to see if I can just download the manual so I don't need
to be going On Line so much.

Call it my personal Taste.

I would think most who are Blind have learned over and over again to
look for Work Arounds for doing many things in Life.

You like Braille, and while I do use it, I Hate it. So a Braille
Manual would be a waste of resources to send me one.

You Love it, and can use it well. So, when the Company doesn't send
a manual in Braille, but has sent you one in PDF, or even Audio, if
you want a manual in Braille, the Work around is to convert that
Audio or
PDF file into Braille. And if you are like me, and can't afford a
Braille Printer, there are Services that will take your Manual file
and make you a manual in Braille.

it may cost you a few dollars, which again is all part of the Life of
someone who is Blind. In the past, I have hired Readers to read
Manuals on Tape. Paid them $10 for every hour of Recorded material.

I've paid people to read my Mail. This was before smart Phones had
built in Cameras and OCR programs. I paid them $10 an hour too. this
was back in the 1980's and 90's.

I haven't had to hire anyone for about 20 years now

And Dare I bring up the Quality of Manuals? So often, regardless of
what Format it comes in, the information in the thing is totally Nuts!
It doesn't make Sense, and you can't tell if it is a Translation of
something in Chinese to English, or from Chinese to Spanish and then
Russian, and then to English etc.

And some manuals that come in English are so poorly written, lack
helpful information and seem to be missing a great deal of actual
instructional information and are next to useless in any format.

Grumpy Dave


















--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"



--
Ann K. Parsons
Portal Tutoring
EMAIL: akp@... <mailto:akp@...>
Author of The Demmies: http://www.dldbooks.com/annparsons/ <http://www.dldbooks.com/annparsons/>
Portal Tutoring web site: http://www.portaltutoring.info <http://www.portaltutoring.info>
Skype: Putertutor
"All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost."



--
Ann K. Parsons
Portal Tutoring
EMAIL: akp@...
Author of The Demmies: http://www.dldbooks.com/annparsons/
Portal Tutoring web site: http://www.portaltutoring.info
Skype: Putertutor

"All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost."


locked Re: warning if you doing business

Evan Reese
 

I had forgotten about the Optacon in this discussion. I am fortunate enough to be able to have two of them, so I won't have to go without if I should have to send one back to Richard Oehm for repair. I hope he lives forever! <smile>
I use one of mine every day for something.
So I read print via touch. I don't think anyone would say that I'm not reading when I use an Optacon to find out what's on a print page just because I'm using a different sense than sight.
Conversely, I knew teachers at the blind school I went to who read braille with their eyes. I don't think anyone would say they weren't reading either, even though braille is a different set of symbols from print, even more so in the case of contracted braille.
So using my own statements to argue that I am not really reading braille is a misinterpretation or misunderstanding of what I actually said.
Evan

-----Original Message-----
From: Carolyn Arnold
Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2020 3:20 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

When I was a medical secretary in a surgical pathology office, I used my Optacon for some dictionaries, code and drug books, patient name spelling - a lot of things. But, I had some Braille reference books and my slate and stylus for some note taking and personal filing. One of the doctors said that I worked, "in two languages."

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io [mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io] On Behalf Of Ron Canazzi
Sent: Saturday, March 7, 2020 12:38 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

Hi Evan,

Well this analysis while tightly argued, is like a biblical literalist that represents a false dialectic by only examining terminologies and factoids that support their own belief structure.

One falsehood of your argument is in semantics Since the perception of reading has been from time immemorial the use of one's eyes and printed material to intake facts derived by, thought of and/or written down by others. If so, then how is it that Braille can be thought of as the exact equivalent of print when it in fact is not. Not only is it not the same as a standard 26 character alphabet, but it also uses a different sense--that of the sense of touch to extract the ideas from the materials.

In a very strict sense of the syntactical world and using at least in part, your own rigid interpretation of 'reading' actually is, then you as a Braille reader really aren't reading in the classic sense of the word either.

That's why I believe that words serve only a function of communicating basic ideas and that there must be flexibility, discourse, investigation and relatively speaking a scientific type analysis of each and every issue for true knowledge to be obtained.

Once again, if the importance of what is known as reading is that we communicate ideas, then the mechanics as to what is defined as reading should be secondary to how the ideas are being transferred.


On 3/6/2020 9:06 PM, Evan Reese wrote:


Well, I would say that listening to an audio book is not the same as reading it, either in braille or print.
To illustrate, if I tell you a story, would you say that you had read it? No. Now, what if I write down the story and read it to you, either in person or on the phone. Would you say that you had read it? I don’t think so.
Now, suppose I make a recording of me reading the story and send it to you. Would you say that you had read it? The only difference is that, instead of reading it to you live, I’m reading it on tape, as we used to say.
So no, listening to someone read a book is not the same thing as reading it oneself. You may still get the information, but you didn’t read it if you listened to someone else read it.
I don’t think a synthetic voice makes any difference. True, it doesn’t know what it’s saying, but you still have an intermediary between yourself and the actual text, you’re still listening to (in this case), a computer translate the actual text into words. So, even though it doesn’t comprehend what it is translating, it is still reading to you in the strictest sense. You are not reading when using a synthetic voice.
But language changes, definitions change over time. It may happen soon that people will say that they are actually reading when they are listening to a voice, any voice, whether human or synthetic, read to them. Many people already say that, so I think we’re on the way. I don’t care all that much. I’ve done it myself, said that I read a book when I actually listened to someone else read it. I don’t make a big deal out of it. But you asked for thoughts, and that’s what I actually believe, even if I speak off-handedly about reading audio books.
Evan

From: David Goldfield <mailto:david.goldfield@...>
Sent: Friday, March 06, 2020 6:58 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business


I'd like to address this topic of literacy when talking about whether or not a person is able or not able to read Braille. I wrote a blog post about this a while ago as these were questions which I was considering and I'd like to share this post with you if you have an interest in reading it. I'm afraid that it really doesn't answer these questions and, in fact, may raise a few additional ones that some of us might not have considered. Here is the post.




Consuming Books: Reading Vs. Listening


1 <https://davidgoldfield.wordpress.com/2017/05/14/168318/#comments>

This morning I was browsing my Facebook timeline and stumbled on a post from one of my friends who posed a very interesting question. The question has to do with the wording we use to convey how we consume audio books. My friend pointed out that she’s noticing a trend, both with blind and sighted readers, where they will use the verb “listen” instead of “read”, as in “I just finished listening to that book” as opposed to “I just finished reading that book”, as if consuming a book via audio isn’t quite the same as reading it.

First, I’ll provide a bit of background into my own life as an avid reader. I learned how to read Braille when I was around four and how to write it not much later than that. I’ve always found reading Braille to be very easy and I’ve been reading books using Braille for about as long as I can remember. I remember the enjoyment I always felt going to my school library, browsing the many shelves of Braille books and being able to check out one or two books a week, which I always read quickly. Of course, there were many books, known as talking books, which were recorded on cassettes’ as well as on phonograph records. Talking books have been available for blind and visually impaired consumers to borrow since the 1930s, way before audio books became popular with sighted consumers. While I never hesitated to borrow a book on tape from my library, Braille was always my preferred medium and, when given a choice between Braille and audio, Braille was always what I chose.

As I’ve embraced new technologies the way I consume books has also changed. Nearly all of the books which I consume are done so audibly and not in Braille. There are several reasons for this and they don’t apply to all readers who are blind. First, most of the books which I want to read are just not available in Braille. While the National Library Service <http://www.loc.gov/nls> produces many Braille books there are simply more titles available in an audio format. Even then the amount of books produced by NLS, while I greatly appreciate the work that they do, is a drop in the bucket compared to the amount of titles available from other suppliers. Bookshare <http://www.bookshare.org/> , another specialized library for people with print disabilities, offers over half a million books and that number continues to increase. Learning Ally <http://www.learningally.org/> is another specialized library which I’ve used for over 35 years, offers around 80,000 human-narrated titles. Of course, mainstream book suppliers such as the Kindle store offer millions of books, with more constantly being added. These specialized and mainstream suppliers offer a much greater selection of books than what I am able to borrow from my local NLS affiliate.

Some readers will no doubt want to remind me of the fact that we do have Braille display technology, which will work both with my computer as well as with my phone. This is certainly true and a Braille display would certainly allow me to read books from any of these suppliers using the same Braille code that I enjoyed using with books printed on paper. However, there are reasons which, for me, make this an impractical solution.

First, Braille display technology, while readily available for many devices, is often costly. As an example, Freedom Scientific’s most inexpensive Braille display, the Focus 14 Blue, costs $1295.00. At this time spending over a thousand dollars for a Braille display is just not something which I could easily do, considering it’s a device that I don’t truly need. However, even if a Braille display magically dropped onto my desk the fact is that I do a lot of reading either on the train or lying in bed. Reading with a Braille display on a moving train, no matter how portable, is just too awkward. When I’m lying in bed and wanted to read a book it’s just so much easier to do this with a small phone and would prove to be a bit less convenient if I added even a 14-cell display.

Anyway, back to the topic. My friend was pointing out that she has noticed that many people say they’ve listened to a book as opposed to reading it if the book was consumed in an audio medium, such as an audio CD or listening to it with synthetic speech using the Kindle app. However, this also makes me think of how we often use the word “read” when we actually have listened to the book.

This raises some interesting questions. When it comes to books, is it fair to consider it reading regardless of how it’s consumed? There are probably some sighted people who feel that the only way to truly read a book is to do so by processing the printed material visually. Of course, as blind people we know this is certainly not the case. All of us would agree that processing the information with our fingers would just as validly be considered reading as processing the information with our eyes and, in that instance, there is no controversy. However, the wording sometimes changes when we shift from print on a page to either a human narrator or a synthetic voice coming from a pair of speakers or from our portable phones and tablets. If I consumed a book by listening to it with an app such as Voice Dream Reader, am I wrong to say that I’ve read the book? Most blind people would say that I’m not and I would tend to agree with them.

However, let’s say we have an individual who is blind who never learned how to read Braille. There are some valid reasons for why they might not have been taught how to read and write in Braille, such as having neuropathy in their fingers which would prevent them from being able to distinguish the dot patterns. In such a case, this blind individual would only be able to consume books in an audible format. Considering this, would we look at that blind person who didn’t know Braille and conclude, if only to ourselves, that this person was illiterate. We might not say that to their face in the course of normal conversation but do we consider a blind person who doesn’t know Braille to be illiterate? If the answer to that question is yes then can we say that this blind person, not knowing Braille, has “read” a book when it was consumed by listening. If we say no, then why is it acceptable for me to say that I’ve read a book and my hypothetical blind person could not say that, just because I can read Braille and he cannot.

Let’s take this a step further and consider a fully sighted person who, for one reason or another, never learned how to read print. There’s no doubt that we would conclude that this person would be considered illiterate. Saying so is not meant as an insult but, in this case, is indisputable; someone who can’t read is illiterate. My hypothetical blind person might not have the ability to learn Braille and the sighted person could, with proper training, learn how to read print but, until that individual chooses to take classes in how to read, we would all agree that he’s illiterate. Given that fact, would we tend to disagree with the illiterate sighted person if he told us that he “read” a particular book by consuming it in an audible medium? Wouldn’t we think, “No, you didn’t really read that book, you listened to it.” If this is the case, then why is it OK for me, as a blind person who knows Braille, to tell people that I may have read the same book by consuming it in the exact same way but yet fewer people would think of challenging my word choices.

Admittedly, this isn’t the most important topic which should concern us. I don’t think about it all that much and it certainly doesn’t keep me up at night. However, I think these issues are important as it has really forced me to think about what we mean when we speak of what it means to be literate.



As an aside, the person who brought up this topic is one of the proprietors of Speeddots, <http://speeddots.com/> which sells various tactile screen protectors for your Apple iDevice. They also sell various Bluetooth accessories as well as rugged lightning cables with a life-time warranty.

So, how do you feel about this? For you, does listening to an audio book qualify as reading it? I’d love to hear your thoughts in the comments.

David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist
JAWS Certified, 2019

WWW.DavidGoldfield.org <http://WWW.DavidGoldfield.org>
On 3/6/2020 6:21 PM, Ron Canazzi wrote:


Now Brian,

I don't want to personalize this, but you say you're a good
Braille reader now: correct? You say that people who use audio primarily aren't truly literate and you can tell by the way they write e-mails: is that what you're saying? Well let me be your teacher and quote and correct your own mistakes that you have made in your lengthy reply.

<spelling error> aAmen(I guess you are trying to say Amen to that or something similar--note the repetition of the first letter A.)

<grammatical clumsiness> if you don't braille than you are not truly literate. (I guess you mean: if you don't know/use/are competent in, Braille then you are not truly literate.)

<run on sentence> If you doubt this then read emails from blind people who don't know braille there spelling and (There should be a period after the word Braille.)

<spelling error> gramar and punctuation leave alot to be desired. (In this sentence grammar and a lot are misspelled.)

<run on sentence> I have been there myself if I don't read then I to will fall in to trap as well. (There should be a period after the word myself.)

If you truly want to be literate then you just have
<spelling error> toread and not just listen to audio. (there is a run on word toread that should be separated into 'to read.')
Those of us who do prefer braille and would rather read than listen have only audio as the option all to often. For me if I want to stay literate then I have to read braille and as I said in my email to Grumpy Dave I can't
<spelling error> amagine my life with out braille. (I guess you mean 'imagine my life without Braille.)

<wrong use of the word loose> I have had braille most of my life and I would loose independence (I guess you mean lose independence.)

<spelling error> ifI were to not know braille. (You ran the words If and I together.)

Reading braille is active reading but listening to audio or computer speech is just passive reading.

I prefer to <spelling error> activly read but most of the time I can't because it's audio only. (You misspelled actively.)

<spelling errors and a run on sentence> I do rember haveing to cary volumes of braille books acrost campus at the blind school but I never gave it a though it was just what I hav to do it was no problem for me at all. (You misspelled remember, having, across and probably mean the word had when you wrote hav. And I almost forgot, you used the word though instead of thought.) (There should be a period after the word thought.)

The campus at the Michigan school for the blind in Lansing Michigan covered a 4 city block area. I tried college back in 1987-1988 and I could have
<spelling error> donee much better if I had braille. (You misspelled the word done.)

<spelling errors> I had tapes from recording forthe blind but I had issues with the readers with pronouncations. (you ran the words for and the together. You misspelled pronunciation.)

I remember taking test and what I heard during the test sounded nothing like what I heard on the tapes.

If I would have had my books in braille I would have known the correct words and the tests would have made <spelling error> sinse. (You misspelled the word sense.)

<spelling error> If yur going to read on tape then you must be able to speak properly and say your words properly. (You misspelled the word you're--or at least I think that's what you meant by writing the word yur.)

<grammatical oddity> There was the issue of only tape at a time and having to send 2 copies of every book to recording for the blind to be recorded. (I'm not quite sure, but I think you meant 'only one tape at a time.)

<spelling error> Audio is usless if I don't know what you are saying. (You misspelled useless.)

This is why we need braille. Braille readers don't make a big deal of how many volumes a book is it just is.


LONG STORY SHORT: BRIAN, YOU ARE A POOR EXAMPLE OF THE IDEA THAT BRAILLE READERS WRITE COHERENT AND GRAMATICALLY CORRECT E-MAIL MESSAGES.
On 3/6/2020 3:01 PM, brian wrote:


aAmen if you don't braille than you are not truly literate. If you doubt this then read emails from blind people who don't know braille there spelling and gramar and punctuation leave alot to be desired. I have been there myself if I don't read then I to will fall in to trap as well. If you truly want to be literate then you just have toread and not just listen to audio. Those of us who do prefer braille and would rather read than listen have only audio as the option all to often. For me if I want to stay literate then I have to read braille and as I said in my email to Grumpy Dave I can't amagine my life with out braille. I have had braille most of my life and I would loose independence ifI were to not know braille. Reading braille is active reading but listening to audio or computer speech is just passive reading. I prefer to activly read but most of the time I can't because it's audio only. I do rember haveing to cary volumes of braille books acrost campus at the blind school but I never gave it a though it was just what I hav to do it was no problem for me at all. The campus at the Michigan school for the blind in Lansing Michigan covered a 4 city block area. I tried college back in 1987-1988 and I could have donee much better if I had braille. I had tapes from recording forthe blind but I had issues with the readers with pronouncations. I remember taking test and what I heard during the test sounded nothing like what I heard on the tapes. If I would have had my books in braille I would have known the correct words and the tests would have made sinse. If yur going to read on tape then you must be able to speak properly and say your words properly. There was the issue of only tape at a time and having to send 2 copies of every book to recording for the blind to be recorded. Audio is usless if I don't know what you are saying. This is why we need braille. Braille readers don't make a big deal of how many volumes a book is it just is.

Brian Sackrider

On 3/6/2020 7:26 AM, chris judge wrote:


This is true. There is a huge difference between not learning braille if you've lost your site later in life. The unfortunate fact is that even people who are blind since birth are not learning braille at the rate they were when I was a kid 50 years ago. If you are blind since birth and you don't learn braille you miss out on basic literacy. How do you learn proper spelling, grammar, punctuation and such if you don't learn braile. If you have had site you already understand these things so knowing braille isn't as paramount.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io> mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io On Behalf Of Victor
Sent: March 6, 2020 12:42 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io <mailto:main@techtalk.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

Hello everyone:

I would like to point out that many blind people lose their eyesight later in life and they find it too difficult to learn braille. It is much easier for them to access information by listening to audio. It’s hard enough for them to get over losing their eyesight and live without seeing their loved ones or other things ever again. The last thing they want is to learn a new skill that they may find just too difficult.

After obtaining my iPhone, I attended a users group where are the people taught each other to use iOS devices. While at the group one day, one of the group leaders brought a focus 40 refreshable braille display for everyone to examine. I was the only blind person in the room interested in touching the device because I knew braille and I owned a previous generation of that device. It was not discussed, but I knew that they were not interested because most of them had lost their eyesight later in life. I suspect that they found it much easier to listen to audio than reading braille. Plus, most of them had learned how to access information using their iPhones. I’m sure they found it much easier to whip out their iPhones and listen to their books, podcasts, scan documents and do everything else we can do with our iPhones. I realize that not everyone owns a smart phone because they have not found a way to obtain one. I also realize that not everyone is into these types of gadgets. However, many blind people have discovered how great these gadgets are and how useful they can be in helping them become more independent. For many of us, that is the route we have chosen.

In any case, don’t be too surprised if you meet a blind person who is not interested in learning braille. Don’t be too hard on those people. Maybe they just prefer to do what is easier.

I am so glad that refreshable braille displays exist now. I am also glad that low cost refreshable braille displays are being developed. I definitely don’t miss the days of carrying bulky braille books to and from my classes. I do not miss the days of trying to look up words in the dictionary and dealing with a whole bookshelf of braille books. No thank you! I do not miss my five volume braille New Testament.

If I did not already on a refreshable braille display, I would definitely look into obtaining the orbit braille reader or the braille me.


Anyhow, these are just my rambling opinions.

Victor Sent from my iPhone



On Mar 5, 2020, at 7:40 PM, brian mailto:bsackrider55@... wrote:

 Thanks Grumpy Dave for your explination. I would be willing to pay a few dollars to get braille. I am not saying that I should get for free but not to have the option is my complaint. My local liberary use to provide braille for 10 cents per page. I was also told that if I provided the paper they would braille what I wanted. They required 67 weight paper which I can get at Staples. All to often we are forced to except only audio as the only format that is available. Braille will always be my prefered format because I prefer to read for myself instead of just listen. You say that you hate braille but you can use it well I feel the same about audio. Why do we have to be locked in to just one format? How many people would rather read than listen? Blind or sighted. People who prefer to read than should be commended instead of being kind of bashed for it. If not many blind people request braille than it should be no trouble to provide it. Braille is not that dificult to produce once you have the equipment. my liberary had no trouble all they needed was files in microsoft word and the paper and they were good to go. I use to get my weekly meterials for my church all in grade 2 braille. It was really great to finally be an active participant in the service instead just a pasive listener. To be able to read along with everyone else the verses and hyms and classes lessons is a great feeling you just can't discribe the independence that it givesyou. It's kind of like having access to dvs you can finally know what is going on when there is all of that dead air. I was able to read infront of the church and be active in bible study and even lead the groop all using braille. I do use braille menus when ever possible even if I don't really need it just to let them see that somone is acually using it. Braille has given me a very full life and I don't know whear my life would be with out braille. I feel that every blind person who is able to read braille should learn it. I do understand that there are blind people who have medical conditions that prevents them from being able to read braille. For them they have no choice but to use audio but I do have the choice I just don't like being limited to just audio only and not braille. You hate braille and I hate audio. a good example of when I wish that I had braille instead of a file was when I requested my local newspaper to be accessable. my lions club purchassed a sara reading machine for me there was no braille manual but there was a print manual. I had to go to the help file on the machine and try to find what I wanted. When I called the paper office they asked what files my machine could read. If I had a braille manual I could have just looked it up while on the phone and gave them the answer. I had to call back after I went to the help file and found it. This is very time concuming I can look up somthing much faster in braille than any other format. I am not saying that I can do it as quick as a sighted person can with print but for me it's the fastest way for me to get the job done. When I was a kid I attended the Michigan school the blind in Lansing and we had to learn braille and all of our books were in braille. There was no I don't want to learn it you had to. I will say that I can certainly listen much faster than I can read but when it comes to looking up somthing braille is faster hands down. I have been blind since birth and thats all I ever knew was braille. It's like the sighted grew up with print. I wanted to learn the opticon at the rehab center but they would not let me because they said that I was not fast enough. I felt that I was learning and making progress and I should had the right to continue but they said no. If somone really wants to learn a new skil then they should beallowed to do so. If I am determind to learn somthing that then I will even though it might take more time then the teacher would like. I guess that modavation means nothing. If somone reallly wants to learn braille so what ifit takes several month to do so they should not be told no you can't continue. If companies had the equipment to produce braille they could charge me for the cost of the paper to get braille manuals or catalogs.



On 3/5/2020 9:26 PM, Dave wrote:
Hello Brian,


I have nothing against Braille other than the hassle it is to create
it, such as a Manual in Braille.


I've been blind for a long time now, and there were many times when I
would have Kissed the Feet of anyone who gave me a manual in Audio
format. many times have I had to just Wing it, learning by Guess and
by Golly. Once Computers became a Tool for the Blind, Guessing was
not always the best thing to do, as guessing wrong could ruin your
day in a Big way. Still can.


but, Brian, I have no Beef with Braille. To produce it is just not an
easy task. And I would guess that most manufacturers of items for
the blind, may not want to hire another Staff member to do nothing
but print out Manuals in Braille.


Yes, it all sounds good, until the costs of doing such a thing is
considered.


These days, I do expect a Manual at least in a PDF format, if not an
Audio file. And if I own my own Braille Printer, I can then print
out the PDF file.


Although, I can't afford one of those printers, so I do without.


However, I could run the Audio file through an Audio to Text
converter, and then print that file out in Braille.


When I get nothing but an On Line Manual, where I need to go On Line
to read the thing. I am Thankful for at least that much, but I
always look to see if I can just download the manual so I don't need
to be going On Line so much.


Call it my personal Taste.


I would think most who are Blind have learned over and over again to
look for Work Arounds for doing many things in Life.


You like Braille, and while I do use it, I Hate it. So a Braille
Manual would be a waste of resources to send me one.


You Love it, and can use it well. So, when the Company doesn't send
a manual in Braille, but has sent you one in PDF, or even Audio, if
you want a manual in Braille, the Work around is to convert that Audio or
PDF file into Braille. And if you are like me, and can't afford a
Braille Printer, there are Services that will take your Manual file
and make you a manual in Braille.


it may cost you a few dollars, which again is all part of the Life of
someone who is Blind. In the past, I have hired Readers to read
Manuals on Tape. Paid them $10 for every hour of Recorded material.


I've paid people to read my Mail. This was before smart Phones had
built in Cameras and OCR programs. I paid them $10 an hour too. this
was back in the 1980's and 90's.


I haven't had to hire anyone for about 20 years now


And Dare I bring up the Quality of Manuals? So often, regardless of
what Format it comes in, the information in the thing is totally Nuts!
It doesn't make Sense, and you can't tell if it is a Translation of
something in Chinese to English, or from Chinese to Spanish and then
Russian, and then to English etc.


And some manuals that come in English are so poorly written, lack
helpful information and seem to be missing a great deal of actual
instructional information and are next to useless in any format.


Grumpy Dave






















--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


determining how much ram a laptop can handle with it's installed motherboard

Keith S
 

Is there any way to determine how much ram a laptop can handle  with it's installed motherboard.
 
I used to build computers to spec when I was sighted, but that was over 17 years ago.
 
My laptop needs a major ram boost, but  I have never build or determined how much ram a motherboard can handle since I went blind
 
Thanks
 
Keith


sfc /scannow and check disc both won't work

joanne
 

I was informed, upon trying to do a system restore on my windows 7 system, that files needed to be repaired before system restore could be performed. But check disc won't repair them, and sfc /scannow starts but then says I have a repair scheduled. I don't know if there's a program that can be downloaded to fix these errors, but I thought I'd see if anyone had any ideas.
 
Thanks.


Re: one note

Holly
 

Karen:
 
I see that there is a one note app for note taking.  That is probably the one you want
 
Sorry.  I had never heard of it.  Hope someone out there can help.