Date   

Re: Accessible mainstream electronic games?

Mich Verrier
 

Hi I can’t think of anyother main stream accessible games. As far as Xbox the only thing on that successful is the menus the games themselves generally are not accessible hth

On Mar 6, 2020, at 5:08 PM, Sharon Hooley <shooley42@...> wrote:

Hi,

I'm thinking about buying at least one electronic game from Amazon. I know that Say What and Boppit are accessible, but are there others? Also, I haven't been really interested in XBox, so I haven't been paying attention to messages on that topic. So are there any games that are already accessible?
Thanks,


Is it hard to communicate, even with hearing aids? Visit
www.CochlearAmericas.com


locked Re: warning if you doing business

David Goldfield
 

I'd like to address this topic of literacy when talking about whether or not a person is able or not able to read Braille. I wrote a blog post about this a while ago as these were questions which I was considering and I'd like to share this post with you if you have an interest in reading it. I'm afraid that it really doesn't answer these questions and, in fact, may raise a few additional ones that some of us might not have considered. Here is the post.


Consuming Books: Reading Vs. Listening

This morning I was browsing my Facebook timeline and stumbled on a post from one of my friends who posed a very interesting question. The question has to do with the wording we use to convey how we consume audio books. My friend pointed out that she’s noticing a trend, both with blind and sighted readers, where they will use the verb “listen” instead of “read”, as in “I just finished listening to that book” as opposed to “I just finished reading that book”, as if consuming a book via audio isn’t quite the same as reading it.

First, I’ll provide a bit of background into my own life as an avid reader. I learned how to read Braille when I was around four and how to write it not much later than that. I’ve always found reading Braille to be very easy and I’ve been reading books using Braille for about as long as I can remember. I remember the enjoyment I always felt going to my school library, browsing the many shelves of Braille books and being able to check out one or two books a week, which I always read quickly. Of course, there were many books, known as talking books, which were recorded on cassettes’ as well as on phonograph records. Talking books have been available for blind and visually impaired consumers to borrow since the 1930s, way before audio books became popular with sighted consumers. While I never hesitated to borrow a book on tape from my library, Braille was always my preferred medium and, when given a choice between Braille and audio, Braille was always what I chose.

As I’ve embraced new technologies the way I consume books has also changed. Nearly all of the books which I consume are done so audibly and not in Braille. There are several reasons for this and they don’t apply to all readers who are blind. First, most of the books which I want to read are just not available in Braille. While the National Library Service produces many Braille books there are simply more titles available in an audio format. Even then the amount of books produced by NLS, while I greatly appreciate the work that they do, is a drop in the bucket compared to the amount of titles available from other suppliers. Bookshare, another specialized library for people with print disabilities, offers over half a million books and that number continues to increase. Learning Ally is another specialized library which I’ve used for over 35 years, offers around 80,000 human-narrated titles. Of course, mainstream book suppliers such as the Kindle store offer millions of books, with more constantly being added. These specialized and mainstream suppliers offer a much greater selection of books than what I am able to borrow from my local NLS affiliate.

Some readers will no doubt want to remind me of the fact that we do have Braille display technology, which will work both with my computer as well as with my phone. This is certainly true and a Braille display would certainly allow me to read books from any of these suppliers using the same Braille code that I enjoyed using with books printed on paper. However, there are reasons which, for me, make this an impractical solution.

First, Braille display technology, while readily available for many devices, is often costly. As an example, Freedom Scientific’s most inexpensive Braille display, the Focus 14 Blue, costs $1295.00. At this time spending over a thousand dollars for a Braille display is just not something which I could easily do, considering it’s a device that I don’t truly need. However, even if a Braille display magically dropped onto my desk the fact is that I do a lot of reading either on the train or lying in bed. Reading with a Braille display on a moving train, no matter how portable, is just too awkward. When I’m lying in bed and wanted to read a book it’s just so much easier to do this with a small phone and would prove to be a bit less convenient if I added even a 14-cell display.

Anyway, back to the topic. My friend was pointing out that she has noticed that many people say they’ve listened to a book as opposed to reading it if the book was consumed in an audio medium, such as an audio CD or listening to it with synthetic speech using the Kindle app. However, this also makes me think of how we often use the word “read” when we actually have listened to the book.

This raises some interesting questions. When it comes to books, is it fair to consider it reading regardless of how it’s consumed? There are probably some sighted people who feel that the only way to truly read a book is to do so by processing the printed material visually. Of course, as blind people we know this is certainly not the case. All of us would agree that processing the information with our fingers would just as validly be considered reading as processing the information with our eyes and, in that instance, there is no controversy. However, the wording sometimes changes when we shift from print on a page to either a human narrator or a synthetic voice coming from a pair of speakers or from our portable phones and tablets. If I consumed a book by listening to it with an app such as Voice Dream Reader, am I wrong to say that I’ve read the book? Most blind people would say that I’m not and I would tend to agree with them.

However, let’s say we have an individual who is blind who never learned how to read Braille. There are some valid reasons for why they might not have been taught how to read and write in Braille, such as having neuropathy in their fingers which would prevent them from being able to distinguish the dot patterns. In such a case, this blind individual would only be able to consume books in an audible format. Considering this, would we look at that blind person who didn’t know Braille and conclude, if only to ourselves, that this person was illiterate. We might not say that to their face in the course of normal conversation but do we consider a blind person who doesn’t know Braille to be illiterate? If the answer to that question is yes then can we say that this blind person, not knowing Braille, has “read” a book when it was consumed by listening. If we say no, then why is it acceptable for me to say that I’ve read a book and my hypothetical blind person could not say that, just because I can read Braille and he cannot.

Let’s take this a step further and consider a fully sighted person who, for one reason or another, never learned how to read print. There’s no doubt that we would conclude that this person would be considered illiterate. Saying so is not meant as an insult but, in this case, is indisputable; someone who can’t read is illiterate. My hypothetical blind person might not have the ability to learn Braille and the sighted person could, with proper training, learn how to read print but, until that individual chooses to take classes in how to read, we would all agree that he’s illiterate. Given that fact, would we tend to disagree with the illiterate sighted person if he told us that he “read” a particular book by consuming it in an audible medium? Wouldn’t we think, “No, you didn’t really read that book, you listened to it.” If this is the case, then why is it OK for me, as a blind person who knows Braille, to tell people that I may have read the same book by consuming it in the exact same way but yet fewer people would think of challenging my word choices.

Admittedly, this isn’t the most important topic which should concern us. I don’t think about it all that much and it certainly doesn’t keep me up at night. However, I think these issues are important as it has really forced me to think about what we mean when we speak of what it means to be literate.

 

As an aside, the person who brought up this topic is one of the proprietors of Speeddots, which sells various tactile screen protectors for your Apple iDevice. They also sell various Bluetooth accessories as well as rugged lightning cables with a life-time warranty.

So, how do you feel about this? For you, does listening to an audio book qualify as reading it? I’d love to hear your thoughts in the comments.


David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist
JAWS Certified, 2019

WWW.DavidGoldfield.org
On 3/6/2020 6:21 PM, Ron Canazzi wrote:

Now Brian,

I don't want to personalize this, but you say you're a good
Braille reader now: correct?  You say that people who use audio primarily aren't truly literate and you can tell by the way they write e-mails: is that what you're saying?  Well let me be your teacher and quote and correct your own mistakes that you have made in your lengthy reply.

<spelling error>    aAmen(I guess you are trying to say Amen to that or something similar--note the repetition of the first letter A.)

<grammatical clumsiness> if you don't braille than you are not truly literate. (I guess you mean: if you don't know/use/are competent in, Braille then you are not truly literate.)

<run on sentence> If you doubt this then read emails from blind people who don't know braille there spelling and (There should be a period after the word Braille.)

<spelling error> gramar and punctuation leave alot to be desired.  (In this sentence grammar and a lot are misspelled.)

<run on sentence> I have been there myself if I don't read then I to will fall in to trap as well.  (There should be a period after the word myself.)

If you truly want to be literate then you just have
<spelling error> toread and not just listen to audio.  (there is a run on word toread that should be separated into 'to read.')
Those of us who  do prefer braille and would rather read than listen have only audio as the option all to often. For me if I want to stay literate then I have to read braille and as I said in my email to Grumpy Dave I can't
<spelling error> amagine my life with out braille.  (I guess you mean 'imagine my life without Braille.)

<wrong use of the word loose> I have had braille most of my life and I would loose independence (I guess you mean lose independence.)

<spelling error> ifI were to not know braille.   (You ran the words If and I together.)

Reading braille is active reading but listening to audio or computer speech is just passive reading.

I prefer to <spelling error> activly read but most of the time I can't because it's audio only.  (You misspelled actively.)

<spelling errors and a run on sentence> I do rember haveing to cary volumes of braille books acrost campus at the blind school but I never gave it a though it was just what I hav to do it was no problem for me at all.   (You misspelled remember, having, across and probably mean the word had when you wrote hav. And I almost forgot, you used the word though instead of thought.)  (There should be a period after the word thought.)

The campus at the Michigan school for the blind in Lansing Michigan covered a 4 city block area.  I tried college back in 1987-1988 and I could have
<spelling error> donee much better if I had braille.  (You misspelled the word done.)

<spelling errors> I had tapes from recording forthe blind but I had issues with the readers with pronouncations.   (you ran the words for and the together.  You misspelled pronunciation.)

I remember taking test and what I heard during the test sounded nothing like what I heard on the tapes.

If I would have had my books in braille I would have known the correct words and the tests would have made <spelling error> sinse.  (You misspelled the word sense.)

<spelling error> If yur going to read on tape then you must be able to speak properly and say your words properly.   (You misspelled the word you're--or at least I think that's what you meant by writing the word yur.)

<grammatical oddity> There was the issue of only tape at a time and having to send 2 copies of every book to recording for the blind to be recorded.  (I'm not quite sure, but I think you meant 'only one tape at a time.)

<spelling error> Audio is usless if I don't know what you are saying. (You misspelled useless.)

This is why we need braille.  Braille readers don't make a big deal of how many volumes a book is it just is.


LONG STORY SHORT: BRIAN, YOU ARE A POOR EXAMPLE OF THE IDEA THAT BRAILLE READERS WRITE COHERENT AND GRAMATICALLY CORRECT E-MAIL MESSAGES.
On 3/6/2020 3:01 PM, brian wrote:
aAmen if you don't braille than you are not truly literate. If you doubt this then read emails from blind people who don't know braille there spelling and gramar and punctuation leave alot to be desired.  I have been there myself if I don't read then I to will fall in to trap as well.  If you truly want to be literate then you just have toread and not just listen to audio.  Those of us who  do prefer braille and would rather read than listen have only audio as the option all to often. For me if I want to stay literate then I have to read braille and as I said in my email to Grumpy Dave I can't amagine my life with out braille.  I have had braille most of my life and I would loose independence ifI were to not know braille.  Reading braille is active reading but listening to audio or computer speech is just passive reading.  I prefer to activly read but most of the time I can't because it's audio only.  I do rember haveing to cary volumes of braille books acrost campus at the blind school but I never gave it a though it was just what I hav to do it was no problem for me at all.  The campus at the Michigan school for the blind in Lansing Michigan covered a 4 city block area.  I tried college back in 1987-1988 and I could have donee much better if I had braille.  I had tapes from recording forthe blind but I had issues with the readers with pronouncations.  I remember taking test and what I heard during the test sounded nothing like what I heard on the tapes.  If I would have had my books in braille I would have known the correct words and the tests would have made sinse.  If yur going to read on tape then you must be able to speak properly and say your words properly.  There was the issue of only tape at a time and having to send 2 copies of every book to recording for the blind to be recorded.  Audio is usless if I don't know what you are saying. This is why we need braille.  Braille readers don't make a big deal of how many volumes a book is it just is.

Brian Sackrider

On 3/6/2020 7:26 AM, chris judge wrote:
This is true. There is a huge difference between not learning braille if you've lost your site later in life. The unfortunate fact is that even people who are blind since birth are not learning braille at the rate they were when I was a kid 50 years ago. If you are blind since birth and you don't learn braille you miss out on basic literacy. How do you learn proper spelling, grammar, punctuation and such if you don't learn braile. If you have had site you already understand these things so knowing braille isn't as paramount.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Victor
Sent: March 6, 2020 12:42 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

Hello everyone:

I would like to point out that many blind people lose their eyesight later in life and they find it too difficult to learn braille. It is much easier for them to access information by listening to audio. It’s hard enough for them to get over losing their eyesight and live without seeing their loved ones or other things ever again. The last thing they want is to learn a new skill that they may find just too difficult.

After obtaining my iPhone, I attended a users group where are the people taught each other to use iOS devices. While at the group one day, one of the group leaders brought a focus 40 refreshable braille display for everyone to examine. I was the only blind person in the room interested in touching the device because I knew braille and I owned a previous generation of that device. It was not discussed, but I knew that they were not interested because most of them had lost their eyesight later in life. I suspect that they found it much easier to listen to audio than reading braille. Plus, most of them had learned how to access information using their iPhones. I’m sure they found it much easier to whip out their iPhones and listen to their books, podcasts, scan documents and do everything else we can do with our iPhones. I realize that not everyone owns a smart phone because they have not found a way to obtain one. I also realize that not everyone is into these types of gadgets. However, many blind people have discovered how great these gadgets are and how useful they can be in helping them become more independent. For many of us, that is the route we have chosen.

In any case, don’t be too surprised if you meet a blind person who is not interested in learning braille. Don’t be too hard on those people. Maybe they just prefer to do what is easier.

I am so glad that refreshable braille displays exist now. I am also glad that low cost refreshable braille displays are being developed. I definitely don’t miss the days of carrying bulky braille books to and from my classes. I do not miss the days of trying to look up words in the dictionary and dealing with a whole bookshelf of braille books. No thank you! I do not miss my five volume braille New Testament.

If I did not already on a refreshable braille display, I would definitely look into obtaining the orbit braille reader or the braille me.


Anyhow, these are just my rambling opinions.

Victor Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 5, 2020, at 7:40 PM, brian <bsackrider55@...> wrote:

    Thanks Grumpy Dave for your explination.  I would be willing to pay a few dollars to get braille. I am not saying that I should get for free but not to have the option is my complaint.  My local liberary use to provide braille for 10 cents per page.   I was also told that if I provided the paper they would braille what I wanted.  They required 67 weight paper which I can get at Staples.  All to often we are forced to except only audio as the only format that is available. Braille will always be my prefered format because I prefer to read for myself instead of just listen.  You say that you hate braille but you can use it well I feel the same about audio. Why do we have to be locked in to just one format?  How many people would rather read than listen?  Blind or sighted. People who prefer to read than should be commended instead of being kind of bashed for it.  If not many blind people request braille than it should be no trouble to provide it. Braille is not that dificult to produce once you have the equipment.  my liberary had no trouble all they needed was files in microsoft word and the paper and they were good to go.  I use to get my weekly meterials for my church all in grade 2 braille. It was really great to finally be an active participant in the service instead just a pasive listener.  To be able to read along with everyone else the verses and hyms and classes lessons is a great feeling you just can't discribe the independence that it givesyou.  It's kind of like having access to dvs you can finally know what is going on when there is all of that dead air.  I was able to read infront of the church and be active in bible study and even lead the groop all using braille.  I do use braille menus when ever possible even if I don't really need it just to let them see that somone is acually using it.  Braille has given me a very full life and I don't know whear my life would be with out braille.  I feel that every blind person who is able to read braille should learn it.  I do understand that there are blind people who have medical conditions that prevents them from being able to read braille.  For them they have no choice but to use audio but I do have the choice I just don't like being limited to just audio only and not braille.  You hate braille and I hate audio.  a good example of when I wish that I had braille instead of a file was when I requested my local newspaper to be accessable.  my lions club purchassed a sara reading machine for me there was no braille manual but there was a print manual.  I had to go to the help file on the machine and try to find what I wanted.  When I called the paper office they asked what files my machine could read.  If I had a braille manual I could have just looked it up while on the phone and gave them the answer.  I had to call back after I went to the help file and found it.  This is very time concuming I can look up somthing much faster in braille than any other format.  I am not saying that I can do it as quick as a sighted person can with print but for me it's the fastest way for me to get the job done.  When I was a kid I attended the Michigan school the blind in Lansing and we had to learn braille and all of our books were in braille.  There was no I don't want to learn it you had to.  I will say that I can certainly listen much faster than I can read but when it comes to looking up somthing braille is faster hands down.  I have been blind since birth and thats all I ever knew was braille. It's like the sighted grew up with print.  I wanted to learn the opticon at the rehab center but they would not let me because they said that I was not fast enough.  I felt that I was learning and making progress and I should had the right to continue but they said no. If somone really wants to learn a new skil then they should beallowed to do so.  If I am determind to learn somthing that then I will even though it might take more time then the teacher would like.  I guess that modavation means nothing.  If somone reallly wants to learn braille so what ifit takes several month to do so they should not be told no you can't continue.  If companies had the equipment to produce braille they could charge me for the cost of the paper to get braille manuals or catalogs.

On 3/5/2020 9:26 PM, Dave wrote:
Hello Brian,


I have nothing against Braille other than the hassle it is to create
it, such as a Manual in Braille.


I've been blind for a long time now, and there were many times when I
would have Kissed the Feet of anyone who gave me a manual in Audio
format.  many times have I had to just Wing it, learning by Guess and
by Golly.  Once Computers became a Tool for the Blind, Guessing was
not always the best thing to do, as guessing wrong could ruin your
day in a Big way.  Still can.


but, Brian, I have no Beef with Braille.   To produce it is just not an
easy task.  And I would guess that most manufacturers of items for
the blind, may not want to hire another Staff member to do nothing
but print out Manuals in Braille.


Yes, it all sounds good, until the costs of doing such a thing is
considered.


These days, I do expect a Manual at least in a PDF format, if not an
Audio file.  And if I own my own Braille Printer, I can then print
out the PDF file.


Although, I can't afford one of those printers, so I do without.


However,  I could run the Audio file through an Audio to Text
converter, and then print that file out in Braille.


When I get nothing but an On Line Manual, where I need to go On Line
to read the thing.  I am Thankful for at least that much, but I
always look to see if I can just download the manual so I don't need
to be going On Line so much.


Call it my personal Taste.


I would think most who are Blind have learned over and over again to
look for Work Arounds for doing many things in Life.


You like Braille, and while I do use it, I Hate it.  So a Braille
Manual would be a waste of resources to send me one.


You Love it, and can use it well.  So, when the Company doesn't send
a manual in Braille, but has sent you one in PDF, or even Audio, if
you want a manual in Braille, the Work around is to convert that Audio or
PDF file into Braille.   And if you are like me, and can't afford a
Braille Printer, there are Services that will take your Manual file
and make you a manual in Braille.


it may cost you a few dollars, which again is all part of the Life of
someone who is Blind.  In the past, I have hired Readers to read
Manuals on Tape.  Paid them $10 for every hour of Recorded material.


I've paid people to read my Mail.  This was before smart Phones had
built in Cameras and OCR programs.   I paid them $10 an hour too. this
was back in the 1980's and 90's.


I haven't had to hire anyone for about 20 years now


And Dare I bring up the Quality of Manuals?  So often, regardless of
what Format it comes in, the information in the thing is totally Nuts!
It doesn't make Sense, and you can't tell if it is a Translation of
something in Chinese to English, or from Chinese to Spanish and then
Russian, and then to English etc.


And some manuals that come in English  are so poorly written, lack
helpful information and seem to be missing a great deal of actual
instructional information and are next to useless in any format.


Grumpy Dave




















locked Re: warning if you doing business

Ron Canazzi
 

Now Brian,

I don't want to personalize this, but you say you're a good
Braille reader now: correct?  You say that people who use audio primarily aren't truly literate and you can tell by the way they write e-mails: is that what you're saying?  Well let me be your teacher and quote and correct your own mistakes that you have made in your lengthy reply.

<spelling error>    aAmen(I guess you are trying to say Amen to that or something similar--note the repetition of the first letter A.)

<grammatical clumsiness> if you don't braille than you are not truly literate. (I guess you mean: if you don't know/use/are competent in, Braille then you are not truly literate.)

<run on sentence> If you doubt this then read emails from blind people who don't know braille there spelling and (There should be a period after the word Braille.)

<spelling error> gramar and punctuation leave alot to be desired.  (In this sentence grammar and a lot are misspelled.)

<run on sentence> I have been there myself if I don't read then I to will fall in to trap as well.  (There should be a period after the word myself.)

If you truly want to be literate then you just have
<spelling error> toread and not just listen to audio.  (there is a run on word toread that should be separated into 'to read.')
Those of us who  do prefer braille and would rather read than listen have only audio as the option all to often. For me if I want to stay literate then I have to read braille and as I said in my email to Grumpy Dave I can't
<spelling error> amagine my life with out braille.  (I guess you mean 'imagine my life without Braille.)

<wrong use of the word loose> I have had braille most of my life and I would loose independence (I guess you mean lose independence.)

<spelling error> ifI were to not know braille.   (You ran the words If and I together.)

Reading braille is active reading but listening to audio or computer speech is just passive reading.

I prefer to <spelling error> activly read but most of the time I can't because it's audio only.  (You misspelled actively.)

<spelling errors and a run on sentence> I do rember haveing to cary volumes of braille books acrost campus at the blind school but I never gave it a though it was just what I hav to do it was no problem for me at all.   (You misspelled remember, having, across and probably mean the word had when you wrote hav. And I almost forgot, you used the word though instead of thought.)  (There should be a period after the word thought.)

The campus at the Michigan school for the blind in Lansing Michigan covered a 4 city block area.  I tried college back in 1987-1988 and I could have
<spelling error> donee much better if I had braille.  (You misspelled the word done.)

<spelling errors> I had tapes from recording forthe blind but I had issues with the readers with pronouncations.   (you ran the words for and the together.  You misspelled pronunciation.)

I remember taking test and what I heard during the test sounded nothing like what I heard on the tapes.

If I would have had my books in braille I would have known the correct words and the tests would have made <spelling error> sinse.  (You misspelled the word sense.)

<spelling error> If yur going to read on tape then you must be able to speak properly and say your words properly.   (You misspelled the word you're--or at least I think that's what you meant by writing the word yur.)

<grammatical oddity> There was the issue of only tape at a time and having to send 2 copies of every book to recording for the blind to be recorded.  (I'm not quite sure, but I think you meant 'only one tape at a time.)

<spelling error> Audio is usless if I don't know what you are saying. (You misspelled useless.)

This is why we need braille.  Braille readers don't make a big deal of how many volumes a book is it just is.


LONG STORY SHORT: BRIAN, YOU ARE A POOR EXAMPLE OF THE IDEA THAT BRAILLE READERS WRITE COHERENT AND GRAMATICALLY CORRECT E-MAIL MESSAGES.

On 3/6/2020 3:01 PM, brian wrote:
aAmen if you don't braille than you are not truly literate. If you doubt this then read emails from blind people who don't know braille there spelling and gramar and punctuation leave alot to be desired.  I have been there myself if I don't read then I to will fall in to trap as well.  If you truly want to be literate then you just have toread and not just listen to audio.  Those of us who  do prefer braille and would rather read than listen have only audio as the option all to often. For me if I want to stay literate then I have to read braille and as I said in my email to Grumpy Dave I can't amagine my life with out braille.  I have had braille most of my life and I would loose independence ifI were to not know braille.  Reading braille is active reading but listening to audio or computer speech is just passive reading.  I prefer to activly read but most of the time I can't because it's audio only.  I do rember haveing to cary volumes of braille books acrost campus at the blind school but I never gave it a though it was just what I hav to do it was no problem for me at all.  The campus at the Michigan school for the blind in Lansing Michigan covered a 4 city block area.  I tried college back in 1987-1988 and I could have donee much better if I had braille.  I had tapes from recording forthe blind but I had issues with the readers with pronouncations.  I remember taking test and what I heard during the test sounded nothing like what I heard on the tapes.  If I would have had my books in braille I would have known the correct words and the tests would have made sinse.  If yur going to read on tape then you must be able to speak properly and say your words properly.  There was the issue of only tape at a time and having to send 2 copies of every book to recording for the blind to be recorded.  Audio is usless if I don't know what you are saying. This is why we need braille.  Braille readers don't make a big deal of how many volumes a book is it just is.

Brian Sackrider

On 3/6/2020 7:26 AM, chris judge wrote:
This is true. There is a huge difference between not learning braille if you've lost your site later in life. The unfortunate fact is that even people who are blind since birth are not learning braille at the rate they were when I was a kid 50 years ago. If you are blind since birth and you don't learn braille you miss out on basic literacy. How do you learn proper spelling, grammar, punctuation and such if you don't learn braile. If you have had site you already understand these things so knowing braille isn't as paramount.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Victor
Sent: March 6, 2020 12:42 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

Hello everyone:

I would like to point out that many blind people lose their eyesight later in life and they find it too difficult to learn braille. It is much easier for them to access information by listening to audio. It’s hard enough for them to get over losing their eyesight and live without seeing their loved ones or other things ever again. The last thing they want is to learn a new skill that they may find just too difficult.

After obtaining my iPhone, I attended a users group where are the people taught each other to use iOS devices. While at the group one day, one of the group leaders brought a focus 40 refreshable braille display for everyone to examine. I was the only blind person in the room interested in touching the device because I knew braille and I owned a previous generation of that device. It was not discussed, but I knew that they were not interested because most of them had lost their eyesight later in life. I suspect that they found it much easier to listen to audio than reading braille. Plus, most of them had learned how to access information using their iPhones. I’m sure they found it much easier to whip out their iPhones and listen to their books, podcasts, scan documents and do everything else we can do with our iPhones. I realize that not everyone owns a smart phone because they have not found a way to obtain one. I also realize that not everyone is into these types of gadgets. However, many blind people have discovered how great these gadgets are and how useful they can be in helping them become more independent. For many of us, that is the route we have chosen.

In any case, don’t be too surprised if you meet a blind person who is not interested in learning braille. Don’t be too hard on those people. Maybe they just prefer to do what is easier.

I am so glad that refreshable braille displays exist now. I am also glad that low cost refreshable braille displays are being developed. I definitely don’t miss the days of carrying bulky braille books to and from my classes. I do not miss the days of trying to look up words in the dictionary and dealing with a whole bookshelf of braille books. No thank you! I do not miss my five volume braille New Testament.

If I did not already on a refreshable braille display, I would definitely look into obtaining the orbit braille reader or the braille me.


Anyhow, these are just my rambling opinions.

Victor Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 5, 2020, at 7:40 PM, brian <bsackrider55@...> wrote:

    Thanks Grumpy Dave for your explination.  I would be willing to pay a few dollars to get braille. I am not saying that I should get for free but not to have the option is my complaint.  My local liberary use to provide braille for 10 cents per page.   I was also told that if I provided the paper they would braille what I wanted.  They required 67 weight paper which I can get at Staples.  All to often we are forced to except only audio as the only format that is available. Braille will always be my prefered format because I prefer to read for myself instead of just listen.  You say that you hate braille but you can use it well I feel the same about audio. Why do we have to be locked in to just one format?  How many people would rather read than listen?  Blind or sighted. People who prefer to read than should be commended instead of being kind of bashed for it.  If not many blind people request braille than it should be no trouble to provide it. Braille is not that dificult to produce once you have the equipment.  my liberary had no trouble all they needed was files in microsoft word and the paper and they were good to go.  I use to get my weekly meterials for my church all in grade 2 braille. It was really great to finally be an active participant in the service instead just a pasive listener.  To be able to read along with everyone else the verses and hyms and classes lessons is a great feeling you just can't discribe the independence that it givesyou.  It's kind of like having access to dvs you can finally know what is going on when there is all of that dead air.  I was able to read infront of the church and be active in bible study and even lead the groop all using braille.  I do use braille menus when ever possible even if I don't really need it just to let them see that somone is acually using it.  Braille has given me a very full life and I don't know whear my life would be with out braille.  I feel that every blind person who is able to read braille should learn it.  I do understand that there are blind people who have medical conditions that prevents them from being able to read braille.  For them they have no choice but to use audio but I do have the choice I just don't like being limited to just audio only and not braille.  You hate braille and I hate audio.  a good example of when I wish that I had braille instead of a file was when I requested my local newspaper to be accessable.  my lions club purchassed a sara reading machine for me there was no braille manual but there was a print manual.  I had to go to the help file on the machine and try to find what I wanted.  When I called the paper office they asked what files my machine could read.  If I had a braille manual I could have just looked it up while on the phone and gave them the answer.  I had to call back after I went to the help file and found it.  This is very time concuming I can look up somthing much faster in braille than any other format.  I am not saying that I can do it as quick as a sighted person can with print but for me it's the fastest way for me to get the job done.  When I was a kid I attended the Michigan school the blind in Lansing and we had to learn braille and all of our books were in braille.  There was no I don't want to learn it you had to.  I will say that I can certainly listen much faster than I can read but when it comes to looking up somthing braille is faster hands down.  I have been blind since birth and thats all I ever knew was braille. It's like the sighted grew up with print.  I wanted to learn the opticon at the rehab center but they would not let me because they said that I was not fast enough.  I felt that I was learning and making progress and I should had the right to continue but they said no. If somone really wants to learn a new skil then they should beallowed to do so.  If I am determind to learn somthing that then I will even though it might take more time then the teacher would like.  I guess that modavation means nothing.  If somone reallly wants to learn braille so what ifit takes several month to do so they should not be told no you can't continue.  If companies had the equipment to produce braille they could charge me for the cost of the paper to get braille manuals or catalogs.

On 3/5/2020 9:26 PM, Dave wrote:
Hello Brian,


I have nothing against Braille other than the hassle it is to create
it, such as a Manual in Braille.


I've been blind for a long time now, and there were many times when I
would have Kissed the Feet of anyone who gave me a manual in Audio
format.  many times have I had to just Wing it, learning by Guess and
by Golly.  Once Computers became a Tool for the Blind, Guessing was
not always the best thing to do, as guessing wrong could ruin your
day in a Big way.  Still can.


but, Brian, I have no Beef with Braille.   To produce it is just not an
easy task.  And I would guess that most manufacturers of items for
the blind, may not want to hire another Staff member to do nothing
but print out Manuals in Braille.


Yes, it all sounds good, until the costs of doing such a thing is
considered.


These days, I do expect a Manual at least in a PDF format, if not an
Audio file.  And if I own my own Braille Printer, I can then print
out the PDF file.


Although, I can't afford one of those printers, so I do without.


However,  I could run the Audio file through an Audio to Text
converter, and then print that file out in Braille.


When I get nothing but an On Line Manual, where I need to go On Line
to read the thing.  I am Thankful for at least that much, but I
always look to see if I can just download the manual so I don't need
to be going On Line so much.


Call it my personal Taste.


I would think most who are Blind have learned over and over again to
look for Work Arounds for doing many things in Life.


You like Braille, and while I do use it, I Hate it.  So a Braille
Manual would be a waste of resources to send me one.


You Love it, and can use it well.  So, when the Company doesn't send
a manual in Braille, but has sent you one in PDF, or even Audio, if
you want a manual in Braille, the Work around is to convert that Audio or
PDF file into Braille.   And if you are like me, and can't afford a
Braille Printer, there are Services that will take your Manual file
and make you a manual in Braille.


it may cost you a few dollars, which again is all part of the Life of
someone who is Blind.  In the past, I have hired Readers to read
Manuals on Tape.  Paid them $10 for every hour of Recorded material.


I've paid people to read my Mail.  This was before smart Phones had
built in Cameras and OCR programs.   I paid them $10 an hour too. this
was back in the 1980's and 90's.


I haven't had to hire anyone for about 20 years now


And Dare I bring up the Quality of Manuals?  So often, regardless of
what Format it comes in, the information in the thing is totally Nuts!
It doesn't make Sense, and you can't tell if it is a Translation of
something in Chinese to English, or from Chinese to Spanish and then
Russian, and then to English etc.


And some manuals that come in English  are so poorly written, lack
helpful information and seem to be missing a great deal of actual
instructional information and are next to useless in any format.


Grumpy Dave










--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


locked Re: warning if you doing business

Cristóbal
 

This is where a little effort goes a long way. Especially if you're hammering the point about spelling and such.
Whatever happened to trying to improve or better oneself?
The below isn't just a case of the odd typo or misspelling, but more like a "why should I care or bother" attitude.
Yes, Braille has all sorts of benefits for building a solid foundation, but just because you don't know or have access to Braille doesn't mean you suddenly don't have to bother trying to learn how to spell or punctuate.
I mean seriously, dude. Try.
Cristóbal

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of brian
Sent: Friday, March 6, 2020 2:23 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

If you get the writter magazine they will tell that if you want to be a good writter than you have to read alot. They are published writters who make their living from their writting. For the record I have never claimed that my writting skills are any better than any one elses I did say that are not as they should be. This is because I don't read like I did in school. I am only blind I am not deaf blind. I am sure that I am not the only blind person whos writting skills are not as they should be. It is all because we don't access to paper braille as we should to keep our writting skills as they should be. wWhen blind people don't read their reading will suffer as I said that mine does. When people say that we don't braille because we have audio and screen readers they are not telling the truth. If you never read how words are spelled then you will sound try to guess how they are spelled by sounding them out. As we all know not all words are spelled like they sound. This is a very big problem if you only listen. For example if you never read the word laugh in braille you might spell it laf because thats the way that it sounds. Why would have any reason to think that was wrong? You would think that that word must be spelled because thats they it sounds. You may say why don't you just use spell check. If you don't read then you would have no way of knowing that was the wrong way to spell the word. Another example is people say words not the way that should be said. All of my life I have always heard the word wash pronounced as worsh so I would write it that way because I had no reason to question it. Once I read the word then I knew that it was spelled wash and not worsh. The way that people talk is very confusing to blindpeople if you can't read for yourself. You may never know that not all words are spelled as they sound. If you did learn proper spelling back in school and you don't read you will forget how many words are spelled after many years of not reading. When I was in school my teachers did not tell me that my writting skills were very bad they could be better and thats we are in school to learn and get our skills as they should be. If you don't use them then you will loose them. I do think that when I was in school my reading and writting was better than it is now because I had to do it every day. Now I don't have to. I have no problem with somone telling that I spelled a word wrong and even sighted people spell words wrong so it's not a blindness thing. No one is going to rember how every word is spelled any one can be wrong.

Brian Sackrider

On 3/6/2020 4:45 PM, Ann Parsons wrote:
Hi all,

I believe that Brian writes as well as he is able. Not sure what his
difficulties may be e.g. learning differences, DeafBlindness,
whatever. Criticizing someone who is doing their best to communicate
is not productive. Pointing out errors, yes, privately, but calling
someone out for commenting on mistakes made by others when he,
himself, has made mistakes may feel good, but is, in my view,
unproductive. That's what I was referring to, Gene.

Sorry, I keep forgetting to quote stuff. This mailer doesn't quote
automatically.

Ann P.


locked Re: warning if you doing business

Cristóbal
 

I'm sorry, but this message is difficult to read. Is this a self-troll?

Cristóbal

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of brian
Sent: Friday, March 6, 2020 12:01 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

aAmen if you don't braille than you are not truly literate. If you doubt this then read emails from blind people who don't know braille there spelling and gramar and punctuation leave alot to be desired. I have been there myself if I don't read then I to will fall in to trap as well. If you truly want to be literate then you just have toread and not just listen to audio. Those of us who do prefer braille and would rather read than listen have only audio as the option all to often. For me if I want to stay literate then I have to read braille and as I said in my email to Grumpy Dave I can't amagine my life with out braille. I have had braille most of my life and I would loose independence ifI were to not know braille. Reading braille is active reading but listening to audio or computer speech is just passive reading. I prefer to activly read but most of the time I can't because it's audio only. I do rember haveing to cary volumes of braille books acrost campus at the blind school but I never gave it a though it was just what I hav to do it was no problem for me at all. The campus at the Michigan school for the blind in Lansing Michigan covered a 4 city block area. I tried college back in 1987-1988 and I could have donee much better if I had braille. I had tapes from recording forthe blind but I had issues with the readers with pronouncations. I remember taking test and what I heard during the test sounded nothing like what I heard on the tapes. If I would have had my books in braille I would have known the correct words and the tests would have made sinse. If yur going to read on tape then you must be able to speak properly and say your words properly. There was the issue of only tape at a time and having to send 2 copies of every book to recording for the blind to be recorded. Audio is usless if I don't know what you are saying. This is why we need braille. Braille readers don't make a big deal of how many volumes a book is it just is.

Brian Sackrider

On 3/6/2020 7:26 AM, chris judge wrote:
This is true. There is a huge difference between not learning braille if you've lost your site later in life. The unfortunate fact is that even people who are blind since birth are not learning braille at the rate they were when I was a kid 50 years ago. If you are blind since birth and you don't learn braille you miss out on basic literacy. How do you learn proper spelling, grammar, punctuation and such if you don't learn braile. If you have had site you already understand these things so knowing braille isn't as paramount.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of
Victor
Sent: March 6, 2020 12:42 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

Hello everyone:

I would like to point out that many blind people lose their eyesight later in life and they find it too difficult to learn braille. It is much easier for them to access information by listening to audio. It’s hard enough for them to get over losing their eyesight and live without seeing their loved ones or other things ever again. The last thing they want is to learn a new skill that they may find just too difficult.

After obtaining my iPhone, I attended a users group where are the people taught each other to use iOS devices. While at the group one day, one of the group leaders brought a focus 40 refreshable braille display for everyone to examine. I was the only blind person in the room interested in touching the device because I knew braille and I owned a previous generation of that device. It was not discussed, but I knew that they were not interested because most of them had lost their eyesight later in life. I suspect that they found it much easier to listen to audio than reading braille. Plus, most of them had learned how to access information using their iPhones. I’m sure they found it much easier to whip out their iPhones and listen to their books, podcasts, scan documents and do everything else we can do with our iPhones. I realize that not everyone owns a smart phone because they have not found a way to obtain one. I also realize that not everyone is into these types of gadgets. However, many blind people have discovered how great these gadgets are and how useful they can be in helping them become more independent. For many of us, that is the route we have chosen.

In any case, don’t be too surprised if you meet a blind person who is not interested in learning braille. Don’t be too hard on those people. Maybe they just prefer to do what is easier.

I am so glad that refreshable braille displays exist now. I am also glad that low cost refreshable braille displays are being developed. I definitely don’t miss the days of carrying bulky braille books to and from my classes. I do not miss the days of trying to look up words in the dictionary and dealing with a whole bookshelf of braille books. No thank you! I do not miss my five volume braille New Testament.

If I did not already on a refreshable braille display, I would definitely look into obtaining the orbit braille reader or the braille me.


Anyhow, these are just my rambling opinions.

Victor Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 5, 2020, at 7:40 PM, brian <bsackrider55@...> wrote:

 Thanks Grumpy Dave for your explination. I would be willing to pay a few dollars to get braille. I am not saying that I should get for free but not to have the option is my complaint. My local liberary use to provide braille for 10 cents per page. I was also told that if I provided the paper they would braille what I wanted. They required 67 weight paper which I can get at Staples. All to often we are forced to except only audio as the only format that is available. Braille will always be my prefered format because I prefer to read for myself instead of just listen. You say that you hate braille but you can use it well I feel the same about audio. Why do we have to be locked in to just one format? How many people would rather read than listen? Blind or sighted. People who prefer to read than should be commended instead of being kind of bashed for it. If not many blind people request braille than it should be no trouble to provide it. Braille is not that dificult to produce once you have the equipment. my liberary had no trouble all they needed was files in microsoft word and the paper and they were good to go. I use to get my weekly meterials for my church all in grade 2 braille. It was really great to finally be an active participant in the service instead just a pasive listener. To be able to read along with everyone else the verses and hyms and classes lessons is a great feeling you just can't discribe the independence that it givesyou. It's kind of like having access to dvs you can finally know what is going on when there is all of that dead air. I was able to read infront of the church and be active in bible study and even lead the groop all using braille. I do use braille menus when ever possible even if I don't really need it just to let them see that somone is acually using it. Braille has given me a very full life and I don't know whear my life would be with out braille. I feel that every blind person who is able to read braille should learn it. I do understand that there are blind people who have medical conditions that prevents them from being able to read braille. For them they have no choice but to use audio but I do have the choice I just don't like being limited to just audio only and not braille. You hate braille and I hate audio. a good example of when I wish that I had braille instead of a file was when I requested my local newspaper to be accessable. my lions club purchassed a sara reading machine for me there was no braille manual but there was a print manual. I had to go to the help file on the machine and try to find what I wanted. When I called the paper office they asked what files my machine could read. If I had a braille manual I could have just looked it up while on the phone and gave them the answer. I had to call back after I went to the help file and found it. This is very time concuming I can look up somthing much faster in braille than any other format. I am not saying that I can do it as quick as a sighted person can with print but for me it's the fastest way for me to get the job done. When I was a kid I attended the Michigan school the blind in Lansing and we had to learn braille and all of our books were in braille. There was no I don't want to learn it you had to. I will say that I can certainly listen much faster than I can read but when it comes to looking up somthing braille is faster hands down. I have been blind since birth and thats all I ever knew was braille. It's like the sighted grew up with print. I wanted to learn the opticon at the rehab center but they would not let me because they said that I was not fast enough. I felt that I was learning and making progress and I should had the right to continue but they said no. If somone really wants to learn a new skil then they should beallowed to do so. If I am determind to learn somthing that then I will even though it might take more time then the teacher would like. I guess that modavation means nothing. If somone reallly wants to learn braille so what ifit takes several month to do so they should not be told no you can't continue. If companies had the equipment to produce braille they could charge me for the cost of the paper to get braille manuals or catalogs.

On 3/5/2020 9:26 PM, Dave wrote:
Hello Brian,


I have nothing against Braille other than the hassle it is to create
it, such as a Manual in Braille.


I've been blind for a long time now, and there were many times when
I would have Kissed the Feet of anyone who gave me a manual in Audio
format. many times have I had to just Wing it, learning by Guess
and by Golly. Once Computers became a Tool for the Blind, Guessing
was not always the best thing to do, as guessing wrong could ruin
your day in a Big way. Still can.


but, Brian, I have no Beef with Braille. To produce it is just not an
easy task. And I would guess that most manufacturers of items for
the blind, may not want to hire another Staff member to do nothing
but print out Manuals in Braille.


Yes, it all sounds good, until the costs of doing such a thing is
considered.


These days, I do expect a Manual at least in a PDF format, if not an
Audio file. And if I own my own Braille Printer, I can then print
out the PDF file.


Although, I can't afford one of those printers, so I do without.


However, I could run the Audio file through an Audio to Text
converter, and then print that file out in Braille.


When I get nothing but an On Line Manual, where I need to go On Line
to read the thing. I am Thankful for at least that much, but I
always look to see if I can just download the manual so I don't need
to be going On Line so much.


Call it my personal Taste.


I would think most who are Blind have learned over and over again to
look for Work Arounds for doing many things in Life.


You like Braille, and while I do use it, I Hate it. So a Braille
Manual would be a waste of resources to send me one.


You Love it, and can use it well. So, when the Company doesn't send
a manual in Braille, but has sent you one in PDF, or even Audio, if
you want a manual in Braille, the Work around is to convert that Audio or
PDF file into Braille. And if you are like me, and can't afford a
Braille Printer, there are Services that will take your Manual file
and make you a manual in Braille.


it may cost you a few dollars, which again is all part of the Life
of someone who is Blind. In the past, I have hired Readers to read
Manuals on Tape. Paid them $10 for every hour of Recorded material.


I've paid people to read my Mail. This was before smart Phones had
built in Cameras and OCR programs. I paid them $10 an hour too. this
was back in the 1980's and 90's.


I haven't had to hire anyone for about 20 years now


And Dare I bring up the Quality of Manuals? So often, regardless of
what Format it comes in, the information in the thing is totally Nuts!
It doesn't make Sense, and you can't tell if it is a Translation of
something in Chinese to English, or from Chinese to Spanish and then
Russian, and then to English etc.


And some manuals that come in English are so poorly written, lack
helpful information and seem to be missing a great deal of actual
instructional information and are next to useless in any format.


Grumpy Dave









Dear Mike, Great, will fix a couple of things!

Alan
 

Dear Mike, Great, will fix a couple of things!
Much appreciated Mike.
With best regards.
God Bless.
Alan
Plantation, Sunny South Florida

----- Original Message -----
From: Mike B
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2020 5:33 PM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Dear Friends, How do I shut Paragraph Marking off in my Word 2007 using JAWS 13


Yo Bro,

Try the following:
1. While in Word press, Insert + V, to open Jaws quick settings.

2. Down arrow to, Editing Options, if it says closed press the right arrow to open.

3. Continue down arrowing 6 or so times to, New Lines and Paragraphs Indication, if this says, On, press the spacebar to turn it off.

4. Tab to, Okay, press enter to save and close.


Take care. Mike. Sennt from my iBarstool. Go Dodgers!

----- Original Message -----
From: Alan
To: Tech Talk Groups
Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2020 9:46 AM
Subject: [TechTalk] Dear Friends, How do I shut Paragraph Marking off in my Word 2007 using JAWS 13


Dear Friends, How do I shut Paragraph Marking off in my Word 2007
Somehow it got turned on, must have drop my headphones on the keyboard again
or something, and it is driving me crazy hearing it with my JAWS 13 all the
time.
Thanking you in advance.
With best regards.
God Bless.
Alan
Plantation, Sunny South Florida


Dear Ann, Control 8 work Great, Thanks!

Alan
 

Dear Ann, Control 8 work Great, Thanks!

With best regards.
God Bless.
Alan
Plantation, Sunny South Florida

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ann Parsons" <akp@...>
To: <main@techtalk.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2020 4:56 PM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Dear Ann, That worked, but now it says "New Line" How do I shut that off in my Word 2007 using JAWS 13


Hi,

Try just ctrl-8

Ann P.


Original message:
Dear Ann and friends, That worked, but now it says "New Line" How do I shut
that off in my Word 2007 using JAWS 13
With best regards.
God Bless.
Alan
Plantation, Sunny South Florida
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ann Parsons" <akp@...>
To: <main@techtalk.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2020 2:14 PM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Dear Friends, How do I shut Paragraph Marking off in
my Word 2007 using JAWS 13

Hi all,
Try ctrl-shift-8 to shut off the paragraph announcements.
Ann P.
--
Ann K. Parsons
Portal Tutoring
EMAIL: akp@...
Author of The Demmies: http://www.dldbooks.com/annparsons/
Portal Tutoring web site: http://www.portaltutoring.info
Skype: Putertutor
"All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost."




--
Ann K. Parsons
Portal Tutoring
EMAIL: akp@...
Author of The Demmies: http://www.dldbooks.com/annparsons/
Portal Tutoring web site: http://www.portaltutoring.info
Skype: Putertutor

"All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost."


locked Re: warning if you doing business

brian
 

If you get the writter magazine they will tell that if you want to be a good writter than you have to read alot.  They are published writters who make their living from their writting.  For the record I have never claimed that my writting skills are any better than any one elses I did say that are not as they should be.  This is because I don't read like I did in school.  I am only blind I am not deaf blind.  I am sure that I am not the only blind person whos writting skills are not as they should be.  It is all because we don't access to paper braille as we should to keep our writting skills as they should be.  wWhen blind people don't read their reading will suffer as I said that mine does.  When people say that we don't braille because we have audio and screen readers they are not telling the truth.  If you never read how words are spelled then you will sound try to guess how they are spelled by sounding them out.  As we all know not all words are spelled like they sound.  This is a very big problem if you only listen.  For example if you never read the word laugh in braille you might spell it laf because thats the way that it sounds.  Why would have any reason to think that was wrong?  You would think that that word must be spelled because thats they it sounds.  You may say why don't you just use spell check.  If you don't read then you would have no way of knowing that was the wrong way to spell the word.  Another example is people say words not the way that should be said.  All of my life I have always heard the word wash pronounced as worsh so I would write it that way because I had no reason to question it.  Once I read the word then I knew that it was spelled wash and not worsh.  The way that people talk is very confusing to blindpeople if you can't read for yourself.  You may never know that not all words are spelled as they sound.  If you did learn proper spelling back in school and you don't read you will forget how many words are spelled after many years of not reading.  When I was in school my teachers did not tell me that my writting skills were very bad they could be better and thats we are in school to learn and get our skills as they should be.  If you don't use them then you will loose them. I do think that when I was in school my reading and writting was better than it is now because I had to do it every day.  Now I don't have to.  I have no problem with somone telling that I spelled a word wrong and even sighted people spell words wrong so it's not a blindness thing. No one is going to rember how every word is spelled any one can be wrong.

Brian Sackrider

On 3/6/2020 4:45 PM, Ann Parsons wrote:
Hi all,

I believe that Brian writes as well as he is able.  Not sure what his difficulties may be e.g. learning differences, DeafBlindness, whatever. Criticizing someone who is doing their best to communicate is not productive.  Pointing out errors, yes, privately, but calling someone out for commenting on mistakes made by others when he, himself, has made mistakes may feel good, but is, in my view, unproductive.  That's what I was referring to, Gene.

Sorry, I keep forgetting to quote stuff.  This mailer doesn't quote automatically.

Ann P.


Accessible mainstream electronic games?

Sharon Hooley
 

Hi,

I'm thinking about buying at least one electronic game from Amazon. I know that Say What and Boppit are accessible, but are there others? Also, I haven't been really interested in XBox, so I haven't been paying attention to messages on that topic. So are there any games that are already accessible?
Thanks,


Is it hard to communicate, even with hearing aids? Visit
www.CochlearAmericas.com


locked Re: warning if you doing business

Ann Parsons
 

Hi all,

I believe that Brian writes as well as he is able. Not sure what his difficulties may be e.g. learning differences, DeafBlindness, whatever. Criticizing someone who is doing their best to communicate is not productive. Pointing out errors, yes, privately, but calling someone out for commenting on mistakes made by others when he, himself, has made mistakes may feel good, but is, in my view, unproductive. That's what I was referring to, Gene.

Sorry, I keep forgetting to quote stuff. This mailer doesn't quote automatically.

Ann P.

--
Ann K. Parsons
Portal Tutoring
EMAIL: akp@...
Author of The Demmies: http://www.dldbooks.com/annparsons/
Portal Tutoring web site: http://www.portaltutoring.info
Skype: Putertutor

"All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost."


locked Re: warning if you doing business

Ann Parsons
 

Hi all,

I don't think we need continue this, guys. Brian's point is valid, no matter how ill written. If one reads braille, one is truly reading, not listening. He is saying that this distinction is important. I believe that it is too. It is true that many people who lose their sight later in life do not necessarily need braille, and in some cases, cannot read it because of health reasons. However, a basic knowledge of the code is useful for labeling and for taking notes. Although there is a group of folks who are employed and do not read braille, 80% of all the employed blind do read braille. I believe that this statistic bears exploration.

Let's be nice to each other, eh? The rewards of tolerance are well known.

Ann P.

--
Ann K. Parsons
Portal Tutoring
EMAIL: akp@...
Author of The Demmies: http://www.dldbooks.com/annparsons/
Portal Tutoring web site: http://www.portaltutoring.info
Skype: Putertutor

"All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost."


locked Re: warning if you doing business

Gene
 

There are lots of messages on the list.  I don't recall the one specific message you are referring to.  Please include the message or refer to it enough so that we know what you are talking about. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, March 06, 2020 3:21 PM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

Hi all,

Dave, I think you are trying to fence with a novice opponent.  You
might want to take on a fellow fencer who is closer to your level of expertise.

Ann P.

--
Ann K. Parsons
Portal Tutoring
EMAIL:  akp@...
Author of The Demmies: http://www.dldbooks.com/annparsons/
Portal Tutoring web site:  http://www.portaltutoring.info
Skype: Putertutor

"All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost."



locked Re: warning if you doing business

Ann Parsons
 

Hi all,

Dave, I think you are trying to fence with a novice opponent. You might want to take on a fellow fencer who is closer to your level of expertise.

Ann P.

--
Ann K. Parsons
Portal Tutoring
EMAIL: akp@...
Author of The Demmies: http://www.dldbooks.com/annparsons/
Portal Tutoring web site: http://www.portaltutoring.info
Skype: Putertutor

"All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost."


Re: Sending Something from Amazon to Someone Other Than Oneself

Mike B
 


I've done this many times, but I've always had to add the address to my address list, then go back in and delete it after the purchase was completed.

Take care.  Mike.  Sent from my iBarstool.  Go dodgers!

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, March 06, 2020 11:54 AM
Subject: [TechTalk] Sending Something from Amazon to Someone Other Than Oneself

How is this done? All I want to do is send something to someone else,
and I'm not interested in adding their address to my list of addresses
that only has one in it anyway.




locked Re: warning if you doing business

brian
 

Vidio instructions will do us no good unless they have dvs blind people can't see vidios.  That is not a workable sulution at all.

Brian Sackrider

On 3/6/2020 11:06 AM, Carolyn Arnold wrote:
Lan has video instructions on all of his products.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io
[mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io] On Behalf Of Ann Parsons
Sent: Friday, March 6, 2020 8:15 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

Morning all,

Several points have been made in this discussion, but I want
to concentrate on Dave's assertion, and his amusement.

Dave, let me explain something to you. Stop being grumpy
and listen.
There are people in this world who actually need braille,
not prefer it, or desire it, but actually need it. These
are our friends who are DeafBlind. They cannot use any
audio materials spoken by either human or synthetic voices.
They need braille.

Second, RE the matter of Free Matter for the Blind. I would
not want equipment of any kind shipped Free Matter because
it takes so long to ship and also because it is treated like
third class mail, the potential for damage is great! I
don't think you can ship computers Free Matter. It has to
be something specifically designed for the blind, not
something that is available to all.

Now as to instructions sent with equipment for the blind,
many companies which sell material specifically designed for
the blind do, not, ship, accessible instructions with their
products!! They don't ship large print. They don't ship
braille. They don't ship audio, nothing accessible, only a
printed pamphlet! This is unconscionable!
A person who is blind should receive instructions in some
kind of accessible format, period! It could be an audio CD,
or a braille hard copy or a braille file, but something!
Instead, they ship their products with printed instructions,
expecting the blind person to be able to access them
somehow. Roger Behm is the *only* businessman I know of who
ships accessible instructions and manuals without being
asked. I had to get sighted help to label a calculator for
a student because the company which sent the thing didn't
bother including accessible instructions.

Ann P.


Original message:
Gosh, a couple of you had me Laughing Out Loud!
Complaining about having to pay Postage, and that Braille
instructions
don[t come in the package?
Sheesh!  Be Dam Thankful you get an Audio file!   but,
Braille?


Now that was Funny!  I Needed a Good Laugh today.
Grumpy Dave
--
Ann K. Parsons
Portal Tutoring
EMAIL: akp@...
Author of The Demmies: http://www.dldbooks.com/annparsons/
Portal Tutoring web site: http://www.portaltutoring.info
Skype: Putertutor

"All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost."






locked Re: warning if you doing business

brian
 

Here in my county we no longer have accessable voting as they no longer have the automarc machines.  The machines that they have now don't even talk.  We need braille ballots so we can vote with out technology that all to often fails but paper braille will never fail no technology only that it takes to braille it.  Having braille ballots would give us the independence of a secret ballot somthing that we just don't have.  We have to tell the pole workers our choices and that not private at all.  I don't want any one to know how I voted.  The sighted are blessed to have private secret ballots butthe blind don't.  If I don't vote because of this then I am not excersing my right to vote and I have no say or right to complain about the outcome.  If I want to vote then I have to give up my right to privacy and tell somone my choices that is not private or secret voting.  This is a major problem in this country that needs to be solved it's lon over due.  Many times the pole workers know nothing about the equipment so if it does not work they can't do anything about that.  They are not trained on how to use the equipment so theese machines do us no good if they don't work.  It's only accessable voting if they do work.  With braille ballots that problem is gone and we can vote just like every one else.  It would be much cheeper to provide braille ballots than expensive machines that don't work. It's just the cost of the paper and the equipment to braille the ballots.  People make so much of a big deal about the high cost to produce braille when thats just not true at all.  They say that because they don't want to provide it.  That gos for companies that seel products for the blind and anything else.  It's just an excuse and a cop out.  I don't buy that and I never will.  The fact will never change that we need braille and we always will.

Brian Sackrider

On 3/6/2020 10:24 AM, Carolyn Arnold wrote:
True enough. They have ballots in Spanish, but not Braille, and like my coworker said, back when I was still working, "you can't learn to see."

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io [mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io] On Behalf Of brian
Sent: Thursday, March 5, 2020 8:03 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

What do you have against braille? The sighted have print and we should have braille. Braille will always be the most efficient way to look somthing up just try to find what you want on an audio cd. We should have all braille and no audio.

Brian Sackrider

On 3/5/2020 7:35 PM, Dave wrote:
Gosh, a couple of you had me Laughing Out Loud!


Complaining about having to pay Postage, and that Braille instructions
don[t come in the package?


Sheesh! Be Dam Thankful you get an Audio file! but, Braille?


Now that was Funny! I Needed a Good Laugh today.


Grumpy Dave









locked Re: warning if you doing business

Gene
 

You can read all sorts of material if you get a Braille output device and use a computer.  and such devices have come down in price remarkably. 
 
and such comments about not being literate are, as so many of your comments are, such generalizations that they are almost meaningless. 
 
If you are talking about children, then reading Braille is important.  If you are talking about someone who loses sight later in life, they already well know how to read.  they are not illiterate.  I don't read much Braille now.  I grew up reading Braille and the fact that I prefer speech has absolutely nothing to do with whether I am literate. 
 
And another meaningless generalization.  Braille readers don't make an issue about how many volumes a book is.  What are you basing that meaningless generalization on?  You?  You and some friends?  You and twenty other people?  Unless you have conducted some sort of survey or in some way can document your statement as being generally applicable, it is meaningless.  One of the important benefits for Braille readers that computers has brought is that Braille is now as efficient from a space standpoint as print.  You can keep books on a computer and read them with a Braille display. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: brian
Sent: Friday, March 06, 2020 2:01 PM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

    aAmen if you don't braille than you are not truly literate. If you
doubt this then read emails from blind people who don't know braille
there spelling and gramar and punctuation leave alot to be desired.  I
have been there myself if I don't read then I to will fall in to trap as
well.  If you truly want to be literate then you just have toread and
not just listen to audio.  Those of us who  do prefer braille and would
rather read than listen have only audio as the option all to often. For
me if I want to stay literate then I have to read braille and as I said
in my email to Grumpy Dave I can't amagine my life with out braille.  I
have had braille most of my life and I would loose independence ifI were
to not know braille.  Reading braille is active reading but listening to
audio or computer speech is just passive reading.  I prefer to activly
read but most of the time I can't because it's audio only.  I do rember
haveing to cary volumes of braille books acrost campus at the blind
school but I never gave it a though it was just what I hav to do it was
no problem for me at all.  The campus at the Michigan school for the
blind in Lansing Michigan covered a 4 city block area.  I tried college
back in 1987-1988 and I could have donee much better if I had braille. 
I had tapes from recording forthe blind but I had issues with the
readers with pronouncations.  I remember taking test and what I heard
during the test sounded nothing like what I heard on the tapes.  If I
would have had my books in braille I would have known the correct words
and the tests would have made sinse.  If yur going to read on tape then
you must be able to speak properly and say your words properly.  There
was the issue of only tape at a time and having to send 2 copies of
every book to recording for the blind to be recorded.  Audio is usless
if I don't know what you are saying. This is why we need braille. 
Braille readers don't make a big deal of how many volumes a book is it
just is.

Brian Sackrider

On 3/6/2020 7:26 AM, chris judge wrote:
> This is true. There is a huge difference between not learning braille if you've lost your site later in life. The unfortunate fact is that even people who are blind since birth are not learning braille at the rate they were when I was a kid 50 years ago. If you are blind since birth and you don't learn braille you miss out on basic literacy. How do you learn proper spelling, grammar, punctuation and such if you don't learn braile. If you have had site you already understand these things so knowing braille isn't as paramount.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Victor
> Sent: March 6, 2020 12:42 AM
> To: main@techtalk.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business
>
> Hello everyone:
>
> I would like to point out that many blind people lose their eyesight later in life and they find it too difficult to learn braille. It is much easier for them to access information by listening to audio. It’s hard enough for them to get over losing their eyesight and live without seeing their loved ones or other things ever again. The last thing they want is to learn a new skill that they may find just too difficult.
>
> After obtaining my iPhone, I attended a users group where are the people taught each other to use iOS devices. While at the group one day, one of the group leaders brought a focus 40 refreshable braille display for everyone to examine. I was the only blind person in the room interested in touching the device because I knew braille and I owned a previous generation of that device. It was not discussed, but I knew that they were not interested because most of them had lost their eyesight later in life. I suspect that they found it much easier to listen to audio than reading braille. Plus, most of them had learned how to access information using their iPhones. I’m sure they found it much easier to whip out their iPhones and listen to their books, podcasts, scan documents and do everything else we can do with our iPhones. I realize that not everyone owns a smart phone because they have not found a way to obtain one. I also realize that not everyone is into these types of gadgets. However, many blind people have discovered how great these gadgets are and how useful they can be in helping them become more independent. For many of us, that is the route we have chosen.
>
> In any case, don’t be too surprised if you meet a blind person who is not interested in learning braille. Don’t be too hard on those people. Maybe they just prefer to do what is easier.
>
> I am so glad that refreshable braille displays exist now. I am also glad that low cost refreshable braille displays are being developed. I definitely don’t miss the days of carrying bulky braille books to and from my classes. I do not miss the days of trying to look up words in the dictionary and dealing with a whole bookshelf of braille books. No thank you! I do not miss my five volume braille New Testament.
>
> If I did not already on a refreshable braille display, I would definitely look into obtaining the orbit braille reader or the braille me.
>
>
> Anyhow, these are just my rambling opinions.
>
> Victor Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Mar 5, 2020, at 7:40 PM, brian <bsackrider55@...> wrote:
>>
>>     Thanks Grumpy Dave for your explination.  I would be willing to pay a few dollars to get braille. I am not saying that I should get for free but not to have the option is my complaint.  My local liberary use to provide braille for 10 cents per page.   I was also told that if I provided the paper they would braille what I wanted.  They required 67 weight paper which I can get at Staples.  All to often we are forced to except only audio as the only format that is available. Braille will always be my prefered format because I prefer to read for myself instead of just listen.  You say that you hate braille but you can use it well I feel the same about audio.  Why do we have to be locked in to just one format?  How many people would rather read than listen?  Blind or sighted.  People who prefer to read than should be commended instead of being kind of bashed for it.  If not many blind people request braille than it should be no trouble to provide it. Braille is not that dificult to produce once you have the equipment.  my liberary had no trouble all they needed was files in microsoft word and the paper and they were good to go.  I use to get my weekly meterials for my church all in grade 2 braille. It was really great to finally be an active participant in the service instead just a pasive listener.  To be able to read along with everyone else the verses and hyms and classes lessons is a great feeling you just can't discribe the independence that it givesyou.  It's kind of like having access to dvs you can finally know what is going on when there is all of that dead air.  I was able to read infront of the church and be active in bible study and even lead the groop all using braille.  I do use braille menus when ever possible even if I don't really need it just to let them see that somone is acually using it.  Braille has given me a very full life and I don't know whear my life would be with out braille.  I feel that every blind person who is able to read braille should learn it.  I do understand that there are blind people who have medical conditions that prevents them from being able to read braille.  For them they have no choice but to use audio but I do have the choice I just don't like being limited to just audio only and not braille.  You hate braille and I hate audio.  a good example of when I wish that I had braille instead of a file was when I requested my local newspaper to be accessable.  my lions club purchassed a sara reading machine for me there was no braille manual but there was a print manual.  I had to go to the help file on the machine and try to find what I wanted.  When I called the paper office they asked what files my machine could read.  If I had a braille manual I could have just looked it up while on the phone and gave them the answer.  I had to call back after I went to the help file and found it.  This is very time concuming I can look up somthing much faster in braille than any other format.  I am not saying that I can do it as quick as a sighted person can with print but for me it's the fastest way for me to get the job done.  When I was a kid I attended the Michigan school the blind in Lansing and we had to learn braille and all of our books were in braille.  There was no I don't want to learn it you had to.  I will say that I can certainly listen much faster than I can read but when it comes to looking up somthing braille is faster hands down.  I have been blind since birth and thats all I ever knew was braille.  It's like the sighted grew up with print.  I wanted to learn the opticon at the rehab center but they would not let me because they said that I was not fast enough.  I felt that I was learning and making progress and I should had the right to continue but they said no. If somone really wants to learn a new skil then they should beallowed to do so.  If I am determind to learn somthing that then I will even though it might take more time then the teacher would like.  I guess that modavation means nothing.  If somone reallly wants to learn braille so what ifit takes several month to do so they should not be told no you can't continue.  If companies had the equipment to produce braille they could charge me for the cost of the paper to get braille manuals or catalogs.
>>
>>> On 3/5/2020 9:26 PM, Dave wrote:
>>> Hello Brian,
>>>
>>>
>>> I have nothing against Braille other than the hassle it is to create
>>> it, such as a Manual in Braille.
>>>
>>>
>>> I've been blind for a long time now, and there were many times when I
>>> would have Kissed the Feet of anyone who gave me a manual in Audio
>>> format.  many times have I had to just Wing it, learning by Guess and
>>> by Golly.  Once Computers became a Tool for the Blind, Guessing was
>>> not always the best thing to do, as guessing wrong could ruin your
>>> day in a Big way.  Still can.
>>>
>>>
>>> but, Brian, I have no Beef with Braille.   To produce it is just not an
>>> easy task.  And I would guess that most manufacturers of items for
>>> the blind, may not want to hire another Staff member to do nothing
>>> but print out Manuals in Braille.
>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, it all sounds good, until the costs of doing such a thing is
>>> considered.
>>>
>>>
>>> These days, I do expect a Manual at least in a PDF format, if not an
>>> Audio file.  And if I own my own Braille Printer, I can then print
>>> out the PDF file.
>>>
>>>
>>> Although, I can't afford one of those printers, so I do without.
>>>
>>>
>>> However,  I could run the Audio file through an Audio to Text
>>> converter, and then print that file out in Braille.
>>>
>>>
>>> When I get nothing but an On Line Manual, where I need to go On Line
>>> to read the thing.  I am Thankful for at least that much, but I
>>> always look to see if I can just download the manual so I don't need
>>> to be going On Line so much.
>>>
>>>
>>> Call it my personal Taste.
>>>
>>>
>>> I would think most who are Blind have learned over and over again to
>>> look for Work Arounds for doing many things in Life.
>>>
>>>
>>> You like Braille, and while I do use it, I Hate it.  So a Braille
>>> Manual would be a waste of resources to send me one.
>>>
>>>
>>> You Love it, and can use it well.  So, when the Company doesn't send
>>> a manual in Braille, but has sent you one in PDF, or even Audio, if
>>> you want a manual in Braille, the Work around is to convert that Audio or
>>> PDF file into Braille.   And if you are like me, and can't afford a
>>> Braille Printer, there are Services that will take your Manual file
>>> and make you a manual in Braille.
>>>
>>>
>>> it may cost you a few dollars, which again is all part of the Life of
>>> someone who is Blind.  In the past, I have hired Readers to read
>>> Manuals on Tape.  Paid them $10 for every hour of Recorded material.
>>>
>>>
>>> I've paid people to read my Mail.  This was before smart Phones had
>>> built in Cameras and OCR programs.   I paid them $10 an hour too. this
>>> was back in the 1980's and 90's.
>>>
>>>
>>> I haven't had to hire anyone for about 20 years now
>>>
>>>
>>> And Dare I bring up the Quality of Manuals?  So often, regardless of
>>> what Format it comes in, the information in the thing is totally Nuts!
>>> It doesn't make Sense, and you can't tell if it is a Translation of
>>> something in Chinese to English, or from Chinese to Spanish and then
>>> Russian, and then to English etc.
>>>
>>>
>>> And some manuals that come in English  are so poorly written, lack
>>> helpful information and seem to be missing a great deal of actual
>>> instructional information and are next to useless in any format.
>>>
>>>
>>> Grumpy Dave
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>




locked Re: warning if you doing business

James Bentley
 

gramar is spelled grammar. There are several other words in your post below that are misspelled...Not to mention bad grammar and several typos.

We all make lots of mistakes so why do you seem to have such a high opinion of your reading, writing, and spelling skills. Please Proofread some of your own post! Especially what you wrote below before you accuse others of being illiterate.

James B

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of brian
Sent: Friday, March 6, 2020 2:01 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

aAmen if you don't braille than you are not truly literate. If you
doubt this then read emails from blind people who don't know braille
there spelling and gramar and punctuation leave alot to be desired. I
have been there myself if I don't read then I to will fall in to trap as
well. If you truly want to be literate then you just have toread and
not just listen to audio. Those of us who do prefer braille and would
rather read than listen have only audio as the option all to often. For
me if I want to stay literate then I have to read braille and as I said
in my email to Grumpy Dave I can't amagine my life with out braille. I
have had braille most of my life and I would loose independence ifI were
to not know braille. Reading braille is active reading but listening to
audio or computer speech is just passive reading. I prefer to activly
read but most of the time I can't because it's audio only. I do rember
haveing to cary volumes of braille books acrost campus at the blind
school but I never gave it a though it was just what I hav to do it was
no problem for me at all. The campus at the Michigan school for the
blind in Lansing Michigan covered a 4 city block area. I tried college
back in 1987-1988 and I could have donee much better if I had braille.
I had tapes from recording forthe blind but I had issues with the
readers with pronouncations. I remember taking test and what I heard
during the test sounded nothing like what I heard on the tapes. If I
would have had my books in braille I would have known the correct words
and the tests would have made sinse. If yur going to read on tape then
you must be able to speak properly and say your words properly. There
was the issue of only tape at a time and having to send 2 copies of
every book to recording for the blind to be recorded. Audio is usless
if I don't know what you are saying. This is why we need braille.
Braille readers don't make a big deal of how many volumes a book is it
just is.

Brian Sackrider

On 3/6/2020 7:26 AM, chris judge wrote:
This is true. There is a huge difference between not learning braille if you've lost your site later in life. The unfortunate fact is that even people who are blind since birth are not learning braille at the rate they were when I was a kid 50 years ago. If you are blind since birth and you don't learn braille you miss out on basic literacy. How do you learn proper spelling, grammar, punctuation and such if you don't learn braile. If you have had site you already understand these things so knowing braille isn't as paramount.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Victor
Sent: March 6, 2020 12:42 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

Hello everyone:

I would like to point out that many blind people lose their eyesight later in life and they find it too difficult to learn braille. It is much easier for them to access information by listening to audio. It’s hard enough for them to get over losing their eyesight and live without seeing their loved ones or other things ever again. The last thing they want is to learn a new skill that they may find just too difficult.

After obtaining my iPhone, I attended a users group where are the people taught each other to use iOS devices. While at the group one day, one of the group leaders brought a focus 40 refreshable braille display for everyone to examine. I was the only blind person in the room interested in touching the device because I knew braille and I owned a previous generation of that device. It was not discussed, but I knew that they were not interested because most of them had lost their eyesight later in life. I suspect that they found it much easier to listen to audio than reading braille. Plus, most of them had learned how to access information using their iPhones. I’m sure they found it much easier to whip out their iPhones and listen to their books, podcasts, scan documents and do everything else we can do with our iPhones. I realize that not everyone owns a smart phone because they have not found a way to obtain one. I also realize that not everyone is into these types of gadgets. However, many blind people have discovered how great these gadgets are and how useful they can be in helping them become more independent. For many of us, that is the route we have chosen.

In any case, don’t be too surprised if you meet a blind person who is not interested in learning braille. Don’t be too hard on those people. Maybe they just prefer to do what is easier.

I am so glad that refreshable braille displays exist now. I am also glad that low cost refreshable braille displays are being developed. I definitely don’t miss the days of carrying bulky braille books to and from my classes. I do not miss the days of trying to look up words in the dictionary and dealing with a whole bookshelf of braille books. No thank you! I do not miss my five volume braille New Testament.

If I did not already on a refreshable braille display, I would definitely look into obtaining the orbit braille reader or the braille me.


Anyhow, these are just my rambling opinions.

Victor Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 5, 2020, at 7:40 PM, brian <bsackrider55@...> wrote:

 Thanks Grumpy Dave for your explination. I would be willing to pay a few dollars to get braille. I am not saying that I should get for free but not to have the option is my complaint. My local liberary use to provide braille for 10 cents per page. I was also told that if I provided the paper they would braille what I wanted. They required 67 weight paper which I can get at Staples. All to often we are forced to except only audio as the only format that is available. Braille will always be my prefered format because I prefer to read for myself instead of just listen. You say that you hate braille but you can use it well I feel the same about audio. Why do we have to be locked in to just one format? How many people would rather read than listen? Blind or sighted. People who prefer to read than should be commended instead of being kind of bashed for it. If not many blind people request braille than it should be no trouble to provide it. Braille is not that dificult to produce once you have the equipment. my liberary had no trouble all they needed was files in microsoft word and the paper and they were good to go. I use to get my weekly meterials for my church all in grade 2 braille. It was really great to finally be an active participant in the service instead just a pasive listener. To be able to read along with everyone else the verses and hyms and classes lessons is a great feeling you just can't discribe the independence that it givesyou. It's kind of like having access to dvs you can finally know what is going on when there is all of that dead air. I was able to read infront of the church and be active in bible study and even lead the groop all using braille. I do use braille menus when ever possible even if I don't really need it just to let them see that somone is acually using it. Braille has given me a very full life and I don't know whear my life would be with out braille. I feel that every blind person who is able to read braille should learn it. I do understand that there are blind people who have medical conditions that prevents them from being able to read braille. For them they have no choice but to use audio but I do have the choice I just don't like being limited to just audio only and not braille. You hate braille and I hate audio. a good example of when I wish that I had braille instead of a file was when I requested my local newspaper to be accessable. my lions club purchassed a sara reading machine for me there was no braille manual but there was a print manual. I had to go to the help file on the machine and try to find what I wanted. When I called the paper office they asked what files my machine could read. If I had a braille manual I could have just looked it up while on the phone and gave them the answer. I had to call back after I went to the help file and found it. This is very time concuming I can look up somthing much faster in braille than any other format. I am not saying that I can do it as quick as a sighted person can with print but for me it's the fastest way for me to get the job done. When I was a kid I attended the Michigan school the blind in Lansing and we had to learn braille and all of our books were in braille. There was no I don't want to learn it you had to. I will say that I can certainly listen much faster than I can read but when it comes to looking up somthing braille is faster hands down. I have been blind since birth and thats all I ever knew was braille. It's like the sighted grew up with print. I wanted to learn the opticon at the rehab center but they would not let me because they said that I was not fast enough. I felt that I was learning and making progress and I should had the right to continue but they said no. If somone really wants to learn a new skil then they should beallowed to do so. If I am determind to learn somthing that then I will even though it might take more time then the teacher would like. I guess that modavation means nothing. If somone reallly wants to learn braille so what ifit takes several month to do so they should not be told no you can't continue. If companies had the equipment to produce braille they could charge me for the cost of the paper to get braille manuals or catalogs.

On 3/5/2020 9:26 PM, Dave wrote:
Hello Brian,


I have nothing against Braille other than the hassle it is to create
it, such as a Manual in Braille.


I've been blind for a long time now, and there were many times when I
would have Kissed the Feet of anyone who gave me a manual in Audio
format. many times have I had to just Wing it, learning by Guess and
by Golly. Once Computers became a Tool for the Blind, Guessing was
not always the best thing to do, as guessing wrong could ruin your
day in a Big way. Still can.


but, Brian, I have no Beef with Braille. To produce it is just not an
easy task. And I would guess that most manufacturers of items for
the blind, may not want to hire another Staff member to do nothing
but print out Manuals in Braille.


Yes, it all sounds good, until the costs of doing such a thing is
considered.


These days, I do expect a Manual at least in a PDF format, if not an
Audio file. And if I own my own Braille Printer, I can then print
out the PDF file.


Although, I can't afford one of those printers, so I do without.


However, I could run the Audio file through an Audio to Text
converter, and then print that file out in Braille.


When I get nothing but an On Line Manual, where I need to go On Line
to read the thing. I am Thankful for at least that much, but I
always look to see if I can just download the manual so I don't need
to be going On Line so much.


Call it my personal Taste.


I would think most who are Blind have learned over and over again to
look for Work Arounds for doing many things in Life.


You like Braille, and while I do use it, I Hate it. So a Braille
Manual would be a waste of resources to send me one.


You Love it, and can use it well. So, when the Company doesn't send
a manual in Braille, but has sent you one in PDF, or even Audio, if
you want a manual in Braille, the Work around is to convert that Audio or
PDF file into Braille. And if you are like me, and can't afford a
Braille Printer, there are Services that will take your Manual file
and make you a manual in Braille.


it may cost you a few dollars, which again is all part of the Life of
someone who is Blind. In the past, I have hired Readers to read
Manuals on Tape. Paid them $10 for every hour of Recorded material.


I've paid people to read my Mail. This was before smart Phones had
built in Cameras and OCR programs. I paid them $10 an hour too. this
was back in the 1980's and 90's.


I haven't had to hire anyone for about 20 years now


And Dare I bring up the Quality of Manuals? So often, regardless of
what Format it comes in, the information in the thing is totally Nuts!
It doesn't make Sense, and you can't tell if it is a Translation of
something in Chinese to English, or from Chinese to Spanish and then
Russian, and then to English etc.


And some manuals that come in English are so poorly written, lack
helpful information and seem to be missing a great deal of actual
instructional information and are next to useless in any format.


Grumpy Dave









locked Re: warning if you doing business

Dave Mitchel
 

I'm sorry brian, but after reading just a line or 2 of your message here I
find it very difficult to read due to poor grammar and poor spelling. I
would not lecture others about illiteracy in a post filled with misspellings
such as this.
another grumpy dave here...

-----Original Message-----
From: brian
Sent: Friday, March 6, 2020 12:01 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

aAmen if you don't braille than you are not truly literate. If you
doubt this then read emails from blind people who don't know braille
there spelling and gramar and punctuation leave alot to be desired. I
have been there myself if I don't read then I to will fall in to trap as
well. If you truly want to be literate then you just have toread and
not just listen to audio. Those of us who do prefer braille and would
rather read than listen have only audio as the option all to often. For
me if I want to stay literate then I have to read braille and as I said
in my email to Grumpy Dave I can't amagine my life with out braille. I
have had braille most of my life and I would loose independence ifI were
to not know braille. Reading braille is active reading but listening to
audio or computer speech is just passive reading. I prefer to activly
read but most of the time I can't because it's audio only. I do rember
haveing to cary volumes of braille books acrost campus at the blind
school but I never gave it a though it was just what I hav to do it was
no problem for me at all. The campus at the Michigan school for the
blind in Lansing Michigan covered a 4 city block area. I tried college
back in 1987-1988 and I could have donee much better if I had braille.
I had tapes from recording forthe blind but I had issues with the
readers with pronouncations. I remember taking test and what I heard
during the test sounded nothing like what I heard on the tapes. If I
would have had my books in braille I would have known the correct words
and the tests would have made sinse. If yur going to read on tape then
you must be able to speak properly and say your words properly. There
was the issue of only tape at a time and having to send 2 copies of
every book to recording for the blind to be recorded. Audio is usless
if I don't know what you are saying. This is why we need braille.
Braille readers don't make a big deal of how many volumes a book is it
just is.

Brian Sackrider

On 3/6/2020 7:26 AM, chris judge wrote:
This is true. There is a huge difference between not learning braille if
you've lost your site later in life. The unfortunate fact is that even
people who are blind since birth are not learning braille at the rate they
were when I was a kid 50 years ago. If you are blind since birth and you
don't learn braille you miss out on basic literacy. How do you learn
proper spelling, grammar, punctuation and such if you don't learn braile.
If you have had site you already understand these things so knowing
braille isn't as paramount.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of
Victor
Sent: March 6, 2020 12:42 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

Hello everyone:

I would like to point out that many blind people lose their eyesight later
in life and they find it too difficult to learn braille. It is much easier
for them to access information by listening to audio. It’s hard enough for
them to get over losing their eyesight and live without seeing their loved
ones or other things ever again. The last thing they want is to learn a
new skill that they may find just too difficult.

After obtaining my iPhone, I attended a users group where are the people
taught each other to use iOS devices. While at the group one day, one of
the group leaders brought a focus 40 refreshable braille display for
everyone to examine. I was the only blind person in the room interested in
touching the device because I knew braille and I owned a previous
generation of that device. It was not discussed, but I knew that they were
not interested because most of them had lost their eyesight later in life.
I suspect that they found it much easier to listen to audio than reading
braille. Plus, most of them had learned how to access information using
their iPhones. I’m sure they found it much easier to whip out their
iPhones and listen to their books, podcasts, scan documents and do
everything else we can do with our iPhones. I realize that not everyone
owns a smart phone because they have not found a way to obtain one. I also
realize that not everyone is into these types of gadgets. However, many
blind people have discovered how great these gadgets are and how useful
they can be in helping them become more independent. For many of us, that
is the route we have chosen.

In any case, don’t be too surprised if you meet a blind person who is not
interested in learning braille. Don’t be too hard on those people. Maybe
they just prefer to do what is easier.

I am so glad that refreshable braille displays exist now. I am also glad
that low cost refreshable braille displays are being developed. I
definitely don’t miss the days of carrying bulky braille books to and from
my classes. I do not miss the days of trying to look up words in the
dictionary and dealing with a whole bookshelf of braille books. No thank
you! I do not miss my five volume braille New Testament.

If I did not already on a refreshable braille display, I would definitely
look into obtaining the orbit braille reader or the braille me.


Anyhow, these are just my rambling opinions.

Victor Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 5, 2020, at 7:40 PM, brian <bsackrider55@...> wrote:

 Thanks Grumpy Dave for your explination. I would be willing to pay
a few dollars to get braille. I am not saying that I should get for free
but not to have the option is my complaint. My local liberary use to
provide braille for 10 cents per page. I was also told that if I
provided the paper they would braille what I wanted. They required 67
weight paper which I can get at Staples. All to often we are forced to
except only audio as the only format that is available. Braille will
always be my prefered format because I prefer to read for myself instead
of just listen. You say that you hate braille but you can use it well I
feel the same about audio. Why do we have to be locked in to just one
format? How many people would rather read than listen? Blind or
sighted. People who prefer to read than should be commended instead of
being kind of bashed for it. If not many blind people request braille
than it should be no trouble to provide it. Braille is not that dificult
to produce once you have the equipment. my liberary had no trouble all
they needed was files in microsoft word and the paper and they were good
to go. I use to get my weekly meterials for my church all in grade 2
braille. It was really great to finally be an active participant in the
service instead just a pasive listener. To be able to read along with
everyone else the verses and hyms and classes lessons is a great feeling
you just can't discribe the independence that it givesyou. It's kind of
like having access to dvs you can finally know what is going on when
there is all of that dead air. I was able to read infront of the church
and be active in bible study and even lead the groop all using braille.
I do use braille menus when ever possible even if I don't really need it
just to let them see that somone is acually using it. Braille has given
me a very full life and I don't know whear my life would be with out
braille. I feel that every blind person who is able to read braille
should learn it. I do understand that there are blind people who have
medical conditions that prevents them from being able to read braille.
For them they have no choice but to use audio but I do have the choice I
just don't like being limited to just audio only and not braille. You
hate braille and I hate audio. a good example of when I wish that I had
braille instead of a file was when I requested my local newspaper to be
accessable. my lions club purchassed a sara reading machine for me there
was no braille manual but there was a print manual. I had to go to the
help file on the machine and try to find what I wanted. When I called
the paper office they asked what files my machine could read. If I had a
braille manual I could have just looked it up while on the phone and gave
them the answer. I had to call back after I went to the help file and
found it. This is very time concuming I can look up somthing much faster
in braille than any other format. I am not saying that I can do it as
quick as a sighted person can with print but for me it's the fastest way
for me to get the job done. When I was a kid I attended the Michigan
school the blind in Lansing and we had to learn braille and all of our
books were in braille. There was no I don't want to learn it you had to.
I will say that I can certainly listen much faster than I can read but
when it comes to looking up somthing braille is faster hands down. I
have been blind since birth and thats all I ever knew was braille. It's
like the sighted grew up with print. I wanted to learn the opticon at
the rehab center but they would not let me because they said that I was
not fast enough. I felt that I was learning and making progress and I
should had the right to continue but they said no. If somone really wants
to learn a new skil then they should beallowed to do so. If I am
determind to learn somthing that then I will even though it might take
more time then the teacher would like. I guess that modavation means
nothing. If somone reallly wants to learn braille so what ifit takes
several month to do so they should not be told no you can't continue. If
companies had the equipment to produce braille they could charge me for
the cost of the paper to get braille manuals or catalogs.

On 3/5/2020 9:26 PM, Dave wrote:
Hello Brian,


I have nothing against Braille other than the hassle it is to create
it, such as a Manual in Braille.


I've been blind for a long time now, and there were many times when I
would have Kissed the Feet of anyone who gave me a manual in Audio
format. many times have I had to just Wing it, learning by Guess and
by Golly. Once Computers became a Tool for the Blind, Guessing was
not always the best thing to do, as guessing wrong could ruin your
day in a Big way. Still can.


but, Brian, I have no Beef with Braille. To produce it is just not an
easy task. And I would guess that most manufacturers of items for
the blind, may not want to hire another Staff member to do nothing
but print out Manuals in Braille.


Yes, it all sounds good, until the costs of doing such a thing is
considered.


These days, I do expect a Manual at least in a PDF format, if not an
Audio file. And if I own my own Braille Printer, I can then print
out the PDF file.


Although, I can't afford one of those printers, so I do without.


However, I could run the Audio file through an Audio to Text
converter, and then print that file out in Braille.


When I get nothing but an On Line Manual, where I need to go On Line
to read the thing. I am Thankful for at least that much, but I
always look to see if I can just download the manual so I don't need
to be going On Line so much.


Call it my personal Taste.


I would think most who are Blind have learned over and over again to
look for Work Arounds for doing many things in Life.


You like Braille, and while I do use it, I Hate it. So a Braille
Manual would be a waste of resources to send me one.


You Love it, and can use it well. So, when the Company doesn't send
a manual in Braille, but has sent you one in PDF, or even Audio, if
you want a manual in Braille, the Work around is to convert that Audio
or
PDF file into Braille. And if you are like me, and can't afford a
Braille Printer, there are Services that will take your Manual file
and make you a manual in Braille.


it may cost you a few dollars, which again is all part of the Life of
someone who is Blind. In the past, I have hired Readers to read
Manuals on Tape. Paid them $10 for every hour of Recorded material.


I've paid people to read my Mail. This was before smart Phones had
built in Cameras and OCR programs. I paid them $10 an hour too. this
was back in the 1980's and 90's.


I haven't had to hire anyone for about 20 years now


And Dare I bring up the Quality of Manuals? So often, regardless of
what Format it comes in, the information in the thing is totally Nuts!
It doesn't make Sense, and you can't tell if it is a Translation of
something in Chinese to English, or from Chinese to Spanish and then
Russian, and then to English etc.


And some manuals that come in English are so poorly written, lack
helpful information and seem to be missing a great deal of actual
instructional information and are next to useless in any format.


Grumpy Dave









locked Re: warning if you doing business

brian
 

Ann P we agree that has been a major complaint of mine for years now the great lack of any accessable meterials only print if thats not an ada issue then I don't know what is.  We should be provided with the format of our choice.  I am glad that you brought up the fact the deaf blind need braille they can't use audio or screen readers.  There will always be a need for good old hard copy braille.  There are those who need braille and those of us who prefer it to any other format out there.  No mater what technology comes along my preference will always be for braille in hard copy format. There is and will never be anything else like or that can replace it.

Brian Sackrider

On 3/6/2020 8:14 AM, Ann Parsons wrote:
Morning all,

Several points have been made in this discussion, but I want to concentrate on Dave's assertion, and his amusement.

Dave, let me explain something to you.  Stop being grumpy and listen.  There are people in this world who actually need braille, not prefer it, or desire it, but actually need it.  These are our friends who are DeafBlind.  They cannot use any audio materials spoken by either human or synthetic voices.  They need braille.

Second, RE the matter of Free Matter for the Blind.  I would not want equipment of any kind shipped Free Matter because it takes so long to ship and also because it is treated like third class mail, the potential for damage is great!  I don't think you can ship computers Free Matter.  It has to be something specifically designed for the blind, not something that is available to all.

Now as to instructions sent with equipment for the blind, many companies which sell material specifically designed for the blind do, not, ship, accessible instructions with their products!!  They don't ship large print.  They don't ship braille.  They don't ship audio, nothing accessible, only a printed pamphlet!  This is unconscionable!  A person who is blind should receive instructions in some kind of accessible format, period!  It could be an audio CD, or a braille hard copy or a braille file, but something! Instead, they ship their products with printed instructions, expecting the blind person to be able to access them somehow. Roger Behm is the *only* businessman I know of who ships accessible instructions and manuals without being asked.  I had to get sighted help to label a calculator for a student because the company which sent the thing didn't bother including accessible instructions.

Ann P.


Original message:
Gosh, a couple of you had me Laughing Out Loud!

Complaining about having to pay Postage, and that Braille instructions
don[t come in the package?

Sheesh!  Be Dam Thankful you get an Audio file!   but, Braille?

Now that was Funny!  I Needed a Good Laugh today.

Grumpy Dave