Date   

locked Re: warning if you doing business

Dave Mitchel
 

I'm sorry brian, but after reading just a line or 2 of your message here I
find it very difficult to read due to poor grammar and poor spelling. I
would not lecture others about illiteracy in a post filled with misspellings
such as this.
another grumpy dave here...

-----Original Message-----
From: brian
Sent: Friday, March 6, 2020 12:01 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

aAmen if you don't braille than you are not truly literate. If you
doubt this then read emails from blind people who don't know braille
there spelling and gramar and punctuation leave alot to be desired. I
have been there myself if I don't read then I to will fall in to trap as
well. If you truly want to be literate then you just have toread and
not just listen to audio. Those of us who do prefer braille and would
rather read than listen have only audio as the option all to often. For
me if I want to stay literate then I have to read braille and as I said
in my email to Grumpy Dave I can't amagine my life with out braille. I
have had braille most of my life and I would loose independence ifI were
to not know braille. Reading braille is active reading but listening to
audio or computer speech is just passive reading. I prefer to activly
read but most of the time I can't because it's audio only. I do rember
haveing to cary volumes of braille books acrost campus at the blind
school but I never gave it a though it was just what I hav to do it was
no problem for me at all. The campus at the Michigan school for the
blind in Lansing Michigan covered a 4 city block area. I tried college
back in 1987-1988 and I could have donee much better if I had braille.
I had tapes from recording forthe blind but I had issues with the
readers with pronouncations. I remember taking test and what I heard
during the test sounded nothing like what I heard on the tapes. If I
would have had my books in braille I would have known the correct words
and the tests would have made sinse. If yur going to read on tape then
you must be able to speak properly and say your words properly. There
was the issue of only tape at a time and having to send 2 copies of
every book to recording for the blind to be recorded. Audio is usless
if I don't know what you are saying. This is why we need braille.
Braille readers don't make a big deal of how many volumes a book is it
just is.

Brian Sackrider

On 3/6/2020 7:26 AM, chris judge wrote:
This is true. There is a huge difference between not learning braille if
you've lost your site later in life. The unfortunate fact is that even
people who are blind since birth are not learning braille at the rate they
were when I was a kid 50 years ago. If you are blind since birth and you
don't learn braille you miss out on basic literacy. How do you learn
proper spelling, grammar, punctuation and such if you don't learn braile.
If you have had site you already understand these things so knowing
braille isn't as paramount.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of
Victor
Sent: March 6, 2020 12:42 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

Hello everyone:

I would like to point out that many blind people lose their eyesight later
in life and they find it too difficult to learn braille. It is much easier
for them to access information by listening to audio. It’s hard enough for
them to get over losing their eyesight and live without seeing their loved
ones or other things ever again. The last thing they want is to learn a
new skill that they may find just too difficult.

After obtaining my iPhone, I attended a users group where are the people
taught each other to use iOS devices. While at the group one day, one of
the group leaders brought a focus 40 refreshable braille display for
everyone to examine. I was the only blind person in the room interested in
touching the device because I knew braille and I owned a previous
generation of that device. It was not discussed, but I knew that they were
not interested because most of them had lost their eyesight later in life.
I suspect that they found it much easier to listen to audio than reading
braille. Plus, most of them had learned how to access information using
their iPhones. I’m sure they found it much easier to whip out their
iPhones and listen to their books, podcasts, scan documents and do
everything else we can do with our iPhones. I realize that not everyone
owns a smart phone because they have not found a way to obtain one. I also
realize that not everyone is into these types of gadgets. However, many
blind people have discovered how great these gadgets are and how useful
they can be in helping them become more independent. For many of us, that
is the route we have chosen.

In any case, don’t be too surprised if you meet a blind person who is not
interested in learning braille. Don’t be too hard on those people. Maybe
they just prefer to do what is easier.

I am so glad that refreshable braille displays exist now. I am also glad
that low cost refreshable braille displays are being developed. I
definitely don’t miss the days of carrying bulky braille books to and from
my classes. I do not miss the days of trying to look up words in the
dictionary and dealing with a whole bookshelf of braille books. No thank
you! I do not miss my five volume braille New Testament.

If I did not already on a refreshable braille display, I would definitely
look into obtaining the orbit braille reader or the braille me.


Anyhow, these are just my rambling opinions.

Victor Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 5, 2020, at 7:40 PM, brian <bsackrider55@...> wrote:

 Thanks Grumpy Dave for your explination. I would be willing to pay
a few dollars to get braille. I am not saying that I should get for free
but not to have the option is my complaint. My local liberary use to
provide braille for 10 cents per page. I was also told that if I
provided the paper they would braille what I wanted. They required 67
weight paper which I can get at Staples. All to often we are forced to
except only audio as the only format that is available. Braille will
always be my prefered format because I prefer to read for myself instead
of just listen. You say that you hate braille but you can use it well I
feel the same about audio. Why do we have to be locked in to just one
format? How many people would rather read than listen? Blind or
sighted. People who prefer to read than should be commended instead of
being kind of bashed for it. If not many blind people request braille
than it should be no trouble to provide it. Braille is not that dificult
to produce once you have the equipment. my liberary had no trouble all
they needed was files in microsoft word and the paper and they were good
to go. I use to get my weekly meterials for my church all in grade 2
braille. It was really great to finally be an active participant in the
service instead just a pasive listener. To be able to read along with
everyone else the verses and hyms and classes lessons is a great feeling
you just can't discribe the independence that it givesyou. It's kind of
like having access to dvs you can finally know what is going on when
there is all of that dead air. I was able to read infront of the church
and be active in bible study and even lead the groop all using braille.
I do use braille menus when ever possible even if I don't really need it
just to let them see that somone is acually using it. Braille has given
me a very full life and I don't know whear my life would be with out
braille. I feel that every blind person who is able to read braille
should learn it. I do understand that there are blind people who have
medical conditions that prevents them from being able to read braille.
For them they have no choice but to use audio but I do have the choice I
just don't like being limited to just audio only and not braille. You
hate braille and I hate audio. a good example of when I wish that I had
braille instead of a file was when I requested my local newspaper to be
accessable. my lions club purchassed a sara reading machine for me there
was no braille manual but there was a print manual. I had to go to the
help file on the machine and try to find what I wanted. When I called
the paper office they asked what files my machine could read. If I had a
braille manual I could have just looked it up while on the phone and gave
them the answer. I had to call back after I went to the help file and
found it. This is very time concuming I can look up somthing much faster
in braille than any other format. I am not saying that I can do it as
quick as a sighted person can with print but for me it's the fastest way
for me to get the job done. When I was a kid I attended the Michigan
school the blind in Lansing and we had to learn braille and all of our
books were in braille. There was no I don't want to learn it you had to.
I will say that I can certainly listen much faster than I can read but
when it comes to looking up somthing braille is faster hands down. I
have been blind since birth and thats all I ever knew was braille. It's
like the sighted grew up with print. I wanted to learn the opticon at
the rehab center but they would not let me because they said that I was
not fast enough. I felt that I was learning and making progress and I
should had the right to continue but they said no. If somone really wants
to learn a new skil then they should beallowed to do so. If I am
determind to learn somthing that then I will even though it might take
more time then the teacher would like. I guess that modavation means
nothing. If somone reallly wants to learn braille so what ifit takes
several month to do so they should not be told no you can't continue. If
companies had the equipment to produce braille they could charge me for
the cost of the paper to get braille manuals or catalogs.

On 3/5/2020 9:26 PM, Dave wrote:
Hello Brian,


I have nothing against Braille other than the hassle it is to create
it, such as a Manual in Braille.


I've been blind for a long time now, and there were many times when I
would have Kissed the Feet of anyone who gave me a manual in Audio
format. many times have I had to just Wing it, learning by Guess and
by Golly. Once Computers became a Tool for the Blind, Guessing was
not always the best thing to do, as guessing wrong could ruin your
day in a Big way. Still can.


but, Brian, I have no Beef with Braille. To produce it is just not an
easy task. And I would guess that most manufacturers of items for
the blind, may not want to hire another Staff member to do nothing
but print out Manuals in Braille.


Yes, it all sounds good, until the costs of doing such a thing is
considered.


These days, I do expect a Manual at least in a PDF format, if not an
Audio file. And if I own my own Braille Printer, I can then print
out the PDF file.


Although, I can't afford one of those printers, so I do without.


However, I could run the Audio file through an Audio to Text
converter, and then print that file out in Braille.


When I get nothing but an On Line Manual, where I need to go On Line
to read the thing. I am Thankful for at least that much, but I
always look to see if I can just download the manual so I don't need
to be going On Line so much.


Call it my personal Taste.


I would think most who are Blind have learned over and over again to
look for Work Arounds for doing many things in Life.


You like Braille, and while I do use it, I Hate it. So a Braille
Manual would be a waste of resources to send me one.


You Love it, and can use it well. So, when the Company doesn't send
a manual in Braille, but has sent you one in PDF, or even Audio, if
you want a manual in Braille, the Work around is to convert that Audio
or
PDF file into Braille. And if you are like me, and can't afford a
Braille Printer, there are Services that will take your Manual file
and make you a manual in Braille.


it may cost you a few dollars, which again is all part of the Life of
someone who is Blind. In the past, I have hired Readers to read
Manuals on Tape. Paid them $10 for every hour of Recorded material.


I've paid people to read my Mail. This was before smart Phones had
built in Cameras and OCR programs. I paid them $10 an hour too. this
was back in the 1980's and 90's.


I haven't had to hire anyone for about 20 years now


And Dare I bring up the Quality of Manuals? So often, regardless of
what Format it comes in, the information in the thing is totally Nuts!
It doesn't make Sense, and you can't tell if it is a Translation of
something in Chinese to English, or from Chinese to Spanish and then
Russian, and then to English etc.


And some manuals that come in English are so poorly written, lack
helpful information and seem to be missing a great deal of actual
instructional information and are next to useless in any format.


Grumpy Dave









locked Re: warning if you doing business

brian
 

Ann P we agree that has been a major complaint of mine for years now the great lack of any accessable meterials only print if thats not an ada issue then I don't know what is.  We should be provided with the format of our choice.  I am glad that you brought up the fact the deaf blind need braille they can't use audio or screen readers.  There will always be a need for good old hard copy braille.  There are those who need braille and those of us who prefer it to any other format out there.  No mater what technology comes along my preference will always be for braille in hard copy format. There is and will never be anything else like or that can replace it.

Brian Sackrider

On 3/6/2020 8:14 AM, Ann Parsons wrote:
Morning all,

Several points have been made in this discussion, but I want to concentrate on Dave's assertion, and his amusement.

Dave, let me explain something to you.  Stop being grumpy and listen.  There are people in this world who actually need braille, not prefer it, or desire it, but actually need it.  These are our friends who are DeafBlind.  They cannot use any audio materials spoken by either human or synthetic voices.  They need braille.

Second, RE the matter of Free Matter for the Blind.  I would not want equipment of any kind shipped Free Matter because it takes so long to ship and also because it is treated like third class mail, the potential for damage is great!  I don't think you can ship computers Free Matter.  It has to be something specifically designed for the blind, not something that is available to all.

Now as to instructions sent with equipment for the blind, many companies which sell material specifically designed for the blind do, not, ship, accessible instructions with their products!!  They don't ship large print.  They don't ship braille.  They don't ship audio, nothing accessible, only a printed pamphlet!  This is unconscionable!  A person who is blind should receive instructions in some kind of accessible format, period!  It could be an audio CD, or a braille hard copy or a braille file, but something! Instead, they ship their products with printed instructions, expecting the blind person to be able to access them somehow. Roger Behm is the *only* businessman I know of who ships accessible instructions and manuals without being asked.  I had to get sighted help to label a calculator for a student because the company which sent the thing didn't bother including accessible instructions.

Ann P.


Original message:
Gosh, a couple of you had me Laughing Out Loud!

Complaining about having to pay Postage, and that Braille instructions
don[t come in the package?

Sheesh!  Be Dam Thankful you get an Audio file!   but, Braille?

Now that was Funny!  I Needed a Good Laugh today.

Grumpy Dave


locked Re: warning if you doing business

brian
 

aAmen if you don't braille than you are not truly literate. If you doubt this then read emails from blind people who don't know braille there spelling and gramar and punctuation leave alot to be desired.  I have been there myself if I don't read then I to will fall in to trap as well.  If you truly want to be literate then you just have toread and not just listen to audio.  Those of us who  do prefer braille and would rather read than listen have only audio as the option all to often. For me if I want to stay literate then I have to read braille and as I said in my email to Grumpy Dave I can't amagine my life with out braille.  I have had braille most of my life and I would loose independence ifI were to not know braille.  Reading braille is active reading but listening to audio or computer speech is just passive reading.  I prefer to activly read but most of the time I can't because it's audio only.  I do rember haveing to cary volumes of braille books acrost campus at the blind school but I never gave it a though it was just what I hav to do it was no problem for me at all.  The campus at the Michigan school for the blind in Lansing Michigan covered a 4 city block area.  I tried college back in 1987-1988 and I could have donee much better if I had braille.  I had tapes from recording forthe blind but I had issues with the readers with pronouncations.  I remember taking test and what I heard during the test sounded nothing like what I heard on the tapes.  If I would have had my books in braille I would have known the correct words and the tests would have made sinse.  If yur going to read on tape then you must be able to speak properly and say your words properly.  There was the issue of only tape at a time and having to send 2 copies of every book to recording for the blind to be recorded.  Audio is usless if I don't know what you are saying. This is why we need braille.  Braille readers don't make a big deal of how many volumes a book is it just is.

Brian Sackrider

On 3/6/2020 7:26 AM, chris judge wrote:
This is true. There is a huge difference between not learning braille if you've lost your site later in life. The unfortunate fact is that even people who are blind since birth are not learning braille at the rate they were when I was a kid 50 years ago. If you are blind since birth and you don't learn braille you miss out on basic literacy. How do you learn proper spelling, grammar, punctuation and such if you don't learn braile. If you have had site you already understand these things so knowing braille isn't as paramount.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Victor
Sent: March 6, 2020 12:42 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

Hello everyone:

I would like to point out that many blind people lose their eyesight later in life and they find it too difficult to learn braille. It is much easier for them to access information by listening to audio. It’s hard enough for them to get over losing their eyesight and live without seeing their loved ones or other things ever again. The last thing they want is to learn a new skill that they may find just too difficult.

After obtaining my iPhone, I attended a users group where are the people taught each other to use iOS devices. While at the group one day, one of the group leaders brought a focus 40 refreshable braille display for everyone to examine. I was the only blind person in the room interested in touching the device because I knew braille and I owned a previous generation of that device. It was not discussed, but I knew that they were not interested because most of them had lost their eyesight later in life. I suspect that they found it much easier to listen to audio than reading braille. Plus, most of them had learned how to access information using their iPhones. I’m sure they found it much easier to whip out their iPhones and listen to their books, podcasts, scan documents and do everything else we can do with our iPhones. I realize that not everyone owns a smart phone because they have not found a way to obtain one. I also realize that not everyone is into these types of gadgets. However, many blind people have discovered how great these gadgets are and how useful they can be in helping them become more independent. For many of us, that is the route we have chosen.

In any case, don’t be too surprised if you meet a blind person who is not interested in learning braille. Don’t be too hard on those people. Maybe they just prefer to do what is easier.

I am so glad that refreshable braille displays exist now. I am also glad that low cost refreshable braille displays are being developed. I definitely don’t miss the days of carrying bulky braille books to and from my classes. I do not miss the days of trying to look up words in the dictionary and dealing with a whole bookshelf of braille books. No thank you! I do not miss my five volume braille New Testament.

If I did not already on a refreshable braille display, I would definitely look into obtaining the orbit braille reader or the braille me.


Anyhow, these are just my rambling opinions.

Victor Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 5, 2020, at 7:40 PM, brian <bsackrider55@...> wrote:

 Thanks Grumpy Dave for your explination. I would be willing to pay a few dollars to get braille. I am not saying that I should get for free but not to have the option is my complaint. My local liberary use to provide braille for 10 cents per page. I was also told that if I provided the paper they would braille what I wanted. They required 67 weight paper which I can get at Staples. All to often we are forced to except only audio as the only format that is available. Braille will always be my prefered format because I prefer to read for myself instead of just listen. You say that you hate braille but you can use it well I feel the same about audio. Why do we have to be locked in to just one format? How many people would rather read than listen? Blind or sighted. People who prefer to read than should be commended instead of being kind of bashed for it. If not many blind people request braille than it should be no trouble to provide it. Braille is not that dificult to produce once you have the equipment. my liberary had no trouble all they needed was files in microsoft word and the paper and they were good to go. I use to get my weekly meterials for my church all in grade 2 braille. It was really great to finally be an active participant in the service instead just a pasive listener. To be able to read along with everyone else the verses and hyms and classes lessons is a great feeling you just can't discribe the independence that it givesyou. It's kind of like having access to dvs you can finally know what is going on when there is all of that dead air. I was able to read infront of the church and be active in bible study and even lead the groop all using braille. I do use braille menus when ever possible even if I don't really need it just to let them see that somone is acually using it. Braille has given me a very full life and I don't know whear my life would be with out braille. I feel that every blind person who is able to read braille should learn it. I do understand that there are blind people who have medical conditions that prevents them from being able to read braille. For them they have no choice but to use audio but I do have the choice I just don't like being limited to just audio only and not braille. You hate braille and I hate audio. a good example of when I wish that I had braille instead of a file was when I requested my local newspaper to be accessable. my lions club purchassed a sara reading machine for me there was no braille manual but there was a print manual. I had to go to the help file on the machine and try to find what I wanted. When I called the paper office they asked what files my machine could read. If I had a braille manual I could have just looked it up while on the phone and gave them the answer. I had to call back after I went to the help file and found it. This is very time concuming I can look up somthing much faster in braille than any other format. I am not saying that I can do it as quick as a sighted person can with print but for me it's the fastest way for me to get the job done. When I was a kid I attended the Michigan school the blind in Lansing and we had to learn braille and all of our books were in braille. There was no I don't want to learn it you had to. I will say that I can certainly listen much faster than I can read but when it comes to looking up somthing braille is faster hands down. I have been blind since birth and thats all I ever knew was braille. It's like the sighted grew up with print. I wanted to learn the opticon at the rehab center but they would not let me because they said that I was not fast enough. I felt that I was learning and making progress and I should had the right to continue but they said no. If somone really wants to learn a new skil then they should beallowed to do so. If I am determind to learn somthing that then I will even though it might take more time then the teacher would like. I guess that modavation means nothing. If somone reallly wants to learn braille so what ifit takes several month to do so they should not be told no you can't continue. If companies had the equipment to produce braille they could charge me for the cost of the paper to get braille manuals or catalogs.

On 3/5/2020 9:26 PM, Dave wrote:
Hello Brian,


I have nothing against Braille other than the hassle it is to create
it, such as a Manual in Braille.


I've been blind for a long time now, and there were many times when I
would have Kissed the Feet of anyone who gave me a manual in Audio
format. many times have I had to just Wing it, learning by Guess and
by Golly. Once Computers became a Tool for the Blind, Guessing was
not always the best thing to do, as guessing wrong could ruin your
day in a Big way. Still can.


but, Brian, I have no Beef with Braille. To produce it is just not an
easy task. And I would guess that most manufacturers of items for
the blind, may not want to hire another Staff member to do nothing
but print out Manuals in Braille.


Yes, it all sounds good, until the costs of doing such a thing is
considered.


These days, I do expect a Manual at least in a PDF format, if not an
Audio file. And if I own my own Braille Printer, I can then print
out the PDF file.


Although, I can't afford one of those printers, so I do without.


However, I could run the Audio file through an Audio to Text
converter, and then print that file out in Braille.


When I get nothing but an On Line Manual, where I need to go On Line
to read the thing. I am Thankful for at least that much, but I
always look to see if I can just download the manual so I don't need
to be going On Line so much.


Call it my personal Taste.


I would think most who are Blind have learned over and over again to
look for Work Arounds for doing many things in Life.


You like Braille, and while I do use it, I Hate it. So a Braille
Manual would be a waste of resources to send me one.


You Love it, and can use it well. So, when the Company doesn't send
a manual in Braille, but has sent you one in PDF, or even Audio, if
you want a manual in Braille, the Work around is to convert that Audio or
PDF file into Braille. And if you are like me, and can't afford a
Braille Printer, there are Services that will take your Manual file
and make you a manual in Braille.


it may cost you a few dollars, which again is all part of the Life of
someone who is Blind. In the past, I have hired Readers to read
Manuals on Tape. Paid them $10 for every hour of Recorded material.


I've paid people to read my Mail. This was before smart Phones had
built in Cameras and OCR programs. I paid them $10 an hour too. this
was back in the 1980's and 90's.


I haven't had to hire anyone for about 20 years now


And Dare I bring up the Quality of Manuals? So often, regardless of
what Format it comes in, the information in the thing is totally Nuts!
It doesn't make Sense, and you can't tell if it is a Translation of
something in Chinese to English, or from Chinese to Spanish and then
Russian, and then to English etc.


And some manuals that come in English are so poorly written, lack
helpful information and seem to be missing a great deal of actual
instructional information and are next to useless in any format.


Grumpy Dave








Sending Something from Amazon to Someone Other Than Oneself

Steve Matzura
 

How is this done? All I want to do is send something to someone else, and I'm not interested in adding their address to my list of addresses that only has one in it anyway.


locked Re: warning if you doing business

Gerald Levy
 

Allow me to address two of your points.  First of all, not all deaf-blind people are dependent on Braille, as you seem to imply. Indeed, many of them use IPhones with Voice Over successfully with their blutoot hearing aids.  I know this because I run the Blind Hearing Aid Users list, and hardly a day goes by without somebody inquiring about using an IPhone, so just because a person is classified as "deaf-blind" does not necessarily mean that they cannot hear or see, and thus must rely totally on Braille to read. I am classified as deaf-blind myself, but have never learned Braille and get along just fine without it because I can still hear reasonably well with hearing aids.


Secondly, it is not true that computers cannot be sent as free matter.  Computers for the Blind in Texas ships all computers and accessories as free matter and even provides tracking numbers, something that some merchants don't do even if you pay for shipping.  I have ordered three computers from them and all were well packaged and delivered undamaged within a week of being sent out


BTW, did your precious Smart Vision cell phone come with comprehensive Braille instructions??  For $700, it's the least they can do.


Gerald

On 3/6/2020 8:14 AM, Ann Parsons wrote:
Morning all,

Several points have been made in this discussion, but I want to concentrate on Dave's assertion, and his amusement.

Dave, let me explain something to you.  Stop being grumpy and listen.  There are people in this world who actually need braille, not prefer it, or desire it, but actually need it.  These are our friends who are DeafBlind.  They cannot use any audio materials spoken by either human or synthetic voices.  They need braille.

Second, RE the matter of Free Matter for the Blind.  I would not want equipment of any kind shipped Free Matter because it takes so long to ship and also because it is treated like third class mail, the potential for damage is great!  I don't think you can ship computers Free Matter.  It has to be something specifically designed for the blind, not something that is available to all.

Now as to instructions sent with equipment for the blind, many companies which sell material specifically designed for the blind do, not, ship, accessible instructions with their products!!  They don't ship large print.  They don't ship braille.  They don't ship audio, nothing accessible, only a printed pamphlet!  This is unconscionable!  A person who is blind should receive instructions in some kind of accessible format, period!  It could be an audio CD, or a braille hard copy or a braille file, but something! Instead, they ship their products with printed instructions, expecting the blind person to be able to access them somehow. Roger Behm is the *only* businessman I know of who ships accessible instructions and manuals without being asked.  I had to get sighted help to label a calculator for a student because the company which sent the thing didn't bother including accessible instructions.

Ann P.


Original message:
Gosh, a couple of you had me Laughing Out Loud!

Complaining about having to pay Postage, and that Braille instructions
don[t come in the package?

Sheesh!  Be Dam Thankful you get an Audio file!   but, Braille?

Now that was Funny!  I Needed a Good Laugh today.

Grumpy Dave


locked Re: warning if you doing business

Laz
 

Well, not quite, but I do have audio and text directions which I email
to my customers and when possible include right on their devices so it
can be accessed in whatever way the person chooses.

The name is Laz which rhymes with Jazz. (smiles)

On 3/6/20, Carolyn Arnold <4carolyna@...> wrote:
Lan has video instructions on all of his products.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io
[mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io] On Behalf Of Ann Parsons
Sent: Friday, March 6, 2020 8:15 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

Morning all,

Several points have been made in this discussion, but I want
to concentrate on Dave's assertion, and his amusement.

Dave, let me explain something to you. Stop being grumpy
and listen.
There are people in this world who actually need braille,
not prefer it, or desire it, but actually need it. These
are our friends who are DeafBlind. They cannot use any
audio materials spoken by either human or synthetic voices.
They need braille.

Second, RE the matter of Free Matter for the Blind. I would
not want equipment of any kind shipped Free Matter because
it takes so long to ship and also because it is treated like
third class mail, the potential for damage is great! I
don't think you can ship computers Free Matter. It has to
be something specifically designed for the blind, not
something that is available to all.

Now as to instructions sent with equipment for the blind,
many companies which sell material specifically designed for
the blind do, not, ship, accessible instructions with their
products!! They don't ship large print. They don't ship
braille. They don't ship audio, nothing accessible, only a
printed pamphlet! This is unconscionable!
A person who is blind should receive instructions in some
kind of accessible format, period! It could be an audio CD,
or a braille hard copy or a braille file, but something!
Instead, they ship their products with printed instructions,
expecting the blind person to be able to access them
somehow. Roger Behm is the *only* businessman I know of who
ships accessible instructions and manuals without being
asked. I had to get sighted help to label a calculator for
a student because the company which sent the thing didn't
bother including accessible instructions.

Ann P.


Original message:
Gosh, a couple of you had me Laughing Out Loud!

Complaining about having to pay Postage, and that Braille
instructions
don[t come in the package?

Sheesh! Be Dam Thankful you get an Audio file! but,
Braille?


Now that was Funny! I Needed a Good Laugh today.

Grumpy Dave
--
Ann K. Parsons
Portal Tutoring
EMAIL: akp@...
Author of The Demmies: http://www.dldbooks.com/annparsons/
Portal Tutoring web site: http://www.portaltutoring.info
Skype: Putertutor

"All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost."







--
Affordably priced Accessible Talking MP3 Players, Accessible phones,
Bluetooth devices, and accessories
http://www.talkingmp3players.com/
Email: laz@...
Phone: 727-498-0121
Skype: lazmesa
Personal Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/laz.mesa
Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/Talkingmp3players?_rdr


locked Re: warning if you doing business

Laz
 

I too lost my eyesight fairly later in life but had the added
difficulty of having neuropathy and they didn't want to waste their
time trying to teach me Braille.

I prefer my directions in text and/or audio with text being my first choice.

Who can't access a plain text file using whatever equipment they have
on hand, whether that be a computer or some sort of braille device?

Laz

On 3/6/20, Marie <magpie.mn@...> wrote:
Very well said, Victor. Since I am one of the group you mentioned I remember

the incident and since I am also one of the people who had some useable
sight until fairly late in life, I could not agree with you more.
At 59 I did not want to learn braille other than the alphabet. And I would
put my skills with audio and digital media up against the braille user any
day.



-----Original Message-----
From: Victor
Sent: Thursday, March 5, 2020 8:42 PM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

Hello everyone:

I would like to point out that many blind people lose their eyesight later
in life and they find it too difficult to learn braille. It is much easier
for them to access information by listening to audio. It’s hard enough for
them to get over losing their eyesight and live without seeing their loved
ones or other things ever again. The last thing they want is to learn a new

skill that they may find just too difficult.

After obtaining my iPhone, I attended a users group where are the people
taught each other to use iOS devices. While at the group one day, one of the

group leaders brought a focus 40 refreshable braille display for everyone to

examine. I was the only blind person in the room interested in touching the

device because I knew braille and I owned a previous generation of that
device. It was not discussed, but I knew that they were not interested
because most of them had lost their eyesight later in life. I suspect that
they found it much easier to listen to audio than reading braille. Plus,
most of them had learned how to access information using their iPhones. I’m

sure they found it much easier to whip out their iPhones and listen to their

books, podcasts, scan documents and do everything else we can do with our
iPhones. I realize that not everyone owns a smart phone because they have
not found a way to obtain one. I also realize that not everyone is into
these types of gadgets. However, many blind people have discovered how great

these gadgets are and how useful they can be in helping them become more
independent. For many of us, that is the route we have chosen.

In any case, don’t be too surprised if you meet a blind person who is not
interested in learning braille. Don’t be too hard on those people. Maybe
they just prefer to do what is easier.

I am so glad that refreshable braille displays exist now. I am also glad
that low cost refreshable braille displays are being developed. I definitely

don’t miss the days of carrying bulky braille books to and from my classes.

I do not miss the days of trying to look up words in the dictionary and
dealing with a whole bookshelf of braille books. No thank you! I do not miss

my five volume braille New Testament.

If I did not already on a refreshable braille display, I would definitely
look into obtaining the orbit braille reader or the braille me.


Anyhow, these are just my rambling opinions.

Victor Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 5, 2020, at 7:40 PM, brian <bsackrider55@...> wrote:

 Thanks Grumpy Dave for your explination. I would be willing to pay a

few dollars to get braille. I am not saying that I should get for free but

not to have the option is my complaint. My local liberary use to provide

braille for 10 cents per page. I was also told that if I provided the
paper they would braille what I wanted. They required 67 weight paper
which I can get at Staples. All to often we are forced to except only
audio as the only format that is available. Braille will always be my
prefered format because I prefer to read for myself instead of just
listen. You say that you hate braille but you can use it well I feel the

same about audio. Why do we have to be locked in to just one format? How

many people would rather read than listen? Blind or sighted. People who

prefer to read than should be commended instead of being kind of bashed
for it. If not many blind people request braille than it should be no
trouble to provide it. Braille is not that dificult to produce once you
have the equipment. my liberary had no trouble all they needed was files

in microsoft word and the paper and they were good to go. I use to get my

weekly meterials for my church all in grade 2 braille. It was really great

to finally be an active participant in the service instead just a pasive
listener. To be able to read along with everyone else the verses and hyms

and classes lessons is a great feeling you just can't discribe the
independence that it givesyou. It's kind of like having access to dvs you

can finally know what is going on when there is all of that dead air. I
was able to read infront of the church and be active in bible study and
even lead the groop all using braille. I do use braille menus when ever
possible even if I don't really need it just to let them see that somone
is acually using it. Braille has given me a very full life and I don't
know whear my life would be with out braille. I feel that every blind
person who is able to read braille should learn it. I do understand that

there are blind people who have medical conditions that prevents them from

being able to read braille. For them they have no choice but to use audio

but I do have the choice I just don't like being limited to just audio
only and not braille. You hate braille and I hate audio. a good example

of when I wish that I had braille instead of a file was when I requested
my local newspaper to be accessable. my lions club purchassed a sara
reading machine for me there was no braille manual but there was a print
manual. I had to go to the help file on the machine and try to find what

I wanted. When I called the paper office they asked what files my machine

could read. If I had a braille manual I could have just looked it up
while on the phone and gave them the answer. I had to call back after I
went to the help file and found it. This is very time concuming I can
look up somthing much faster in braille than any other format. I am not
saying that I can do it as quick as a sighted person can with print but
for me it's the fastest way for me to get the job done. When I was a kid

I attended the Michigan school the blind in Lansing and we had to learn
braille and all of our books were in braille. There was no I don't want
to learn it you had to. I will say that I can certainly listen much
faster than I can read but when it comes to looking up somthing braille is

faster hands down. I have been blind since birth and thats all I ever
knew was braille. It's like the sighted grew up with print. I wanted to

learn the opticon at the rehab center but they would not let me because
they said that I was not fast enough. I felt that I was learning and
making progress and I should had the right to continue but they said no.
If somone really wants to learn a new skil then they should beallowed to
do so. If I am determind to learn somthing that then I will even though
it might take more time then the teacher would like. I guess that
modavation means nothing. If somone reallly wants to learn braille so
what ifit takes several month to do so they should not be told no you
can't continue. If companies had the equipment to produce braille they
could charge me for the cost of the paper to get braille manuals or
catalogs.

On 3/5/2020 9:26 PM, Dave wrote:
Hello Brian,


I have nothing against Braille other than the hassle it is to create it,
such as a Manual in Braille.


I've been blind for a long time now, and there were many times when I
would have Kissed the Feet of anyone who gave me a manual in Audio
format. many times have I had to just Wing it, learning by Guess and by
Golly. Once Computers became a Tool for the Blind, Guessing was not
always the best thing to do, as guessing wrong could ruin your day in a
Big way. Still can.


but, Brian, I have no Beef with Braille. To produce it is just not an
easy task. And I would guess that most manufacturers of items for the
blind, may not want to hire another Staff member to do nothing but print
out Manuals in Braille.


Yes, it all sounds good, until the costs of doing such a thing is
considered.


These days, I do expect a Manual at least in a PDF format, if not an
Audio file. And if I own my own Braille Printer, I can then print out
the PDF file.


Although, I can't afford one of those printers, so I do without.


However, I could run the Audio file through an Audio to Text converter,
and then print that file out in Braille.


When I get nothing but an On Line Manual, where I need to go On Line to
read the thing. I am Thankful for at least that much, but I always look
to see if I can just download the manual so I don't need to be going On
Line so much.


Call it my personal Taste.


I would think most who are Blind have learned over and over again to
look for Work Arounds for doing many things in Life.


You like Braille, and while I do use it, I Hate it. So a Braille Manual
would be a waste of resources to send me one.


You Love it, and can use it well. So, when the Company doesn't send a
manual in Braille, but has sent you one in PDF, or even Audio, if you
want a manual in Braille, the Work around is to convert that Audio or
PDF file into Braille. And if you are like me, and can't afford a
Braille Printer, there are Services that will take your Manual file and
make you a manual in Braille.


it may cost you a few dollars, which again is all part of the Life of
someone who is Blind. In the past, I have hired Readers to read Manuals
on Tape. Paid them $10 for every hour of Recorded material.


I've paid people to read my Mail. This was before smart Phones had
built in Cameras and OCR programs. I paid them $10 an hour too. this
was back in the 1980's and 90's.


I haven't had to hire anyone for about 20 years now


And Dare I bring up the Quality of Manuals? So often, regardless of
what Format it comes in, the information in the thing is totally Nuts!
It doesn't make Sense, and you can't tell if it is a Translation of
something in Chinese to English, or from Chinese to Spanish and then
Russian, and then to English etc.


And some manuals that come in English are so poorly written, lack
helpful information and seem to be missing a great deal of actual
instructional information and are next to useless in any format.


Grumpy Dave










--
Affordably priced Accessible Talking MP3 Players, Accessible phones,
Bluetooth devices, and accessories
http://www.talkingmp3players.com/
Email: laz@...
Phone: 727-498-0121
Skype: lazmesa
Personal Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/laz.mesa
Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/Talkingmp3players?_rdr


locked Re: warning if you doing business

Laz
 

Hi Ron,

I have heard it said that free matter can be insured although I don't
have any personal experience with this.

I know what I know and I know what I don't know. (smiles)

Laz

On 3/6/20, Ron Canazzi <aa2vm@...> wrote:
Hi Laz,

I was wondering when someone running a business would reply to this
thread. I agree with your assessment of Free Matter For The Blind.
While it is a handy tool for written and recorded materials of low or
moderate price, I wouldn't want someone to send A Victor Reader Trek by
that method. Remember people, Free Matter for the blind is low priority
mail and is therefore subject to long delays and less care than even
standard mail. I am not sure, but I don't believe that free matter
deliveries are insurable; I could be wrong. If not, then any company
who sent a Trek via free matter would have its heart in its mouth hoping
that 2 or 3 weeks after the product was sent--that it got to its
destination in one piece.



On 3/5/2020 5:57 PM, Laz wrote:
I do operate my own business and would not use free matter for the
blind under any circumstances. Instead I use the USPS and pay for the
postage myself, except on international orders but I do subsidize the
international postage as well.

I had too many experiences before I started my business when I did use
free matter for the blind personally, of packages getting lost,
packages coming back postage due, etc, that I decided I would never
use it in my business.

In answer to someone else's comments in this thread about
blindbusinesses not caring about blind people or offering payment
plans, we do offer lay-away plans but only for orders totaling $200 or
more such as for a Victor Reader Stream, Victor Reader Trek, etc.

I am blind, am not rich by any stretch of the imagination, and I do care.

Laz

On 3/5/20, Dave Mitchel <dbmitchel@...> wrote:
the government pays for free matter. that is not or does not include
things
you pay for as it is free matter.
if I am selling you or anyone else I cannot send that free matter as it
is
not free but has been paid for.

From: brian
Sent: Thursday, March 5, 2020 1:55 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

We should not do business with any company that will not mail out
products that do qualafy for free matter. Tell them that they don't then
we
will go else whear. If companies can't deal with the cost of doing
business
then they don't belong in business. It's bad enough when companies that
sell products for the blind refuse to provide us with accessable
meterials
such as manuals and catalogs. They all do this and neither Acb or Nfb
are
doing anything about this. They just don't care about real world
problems
of the blind they are a very big joke. They have always been and will
always will be. Companies that sell products for the blind are proving
that
they really don't care about the needs of the blind they just want our
money. They are taking advantage of and they should all be very ashamed
of
themselves. What a big scam? They just can't comprehend that the
majority
of theblind are either unimployed living on ssi or ssdi income that
barly
pays for your monthly living expensive. There is very little room for
expensive products in their budgets. Thats just reality but they will
never
comprehend that. How many companies that sell products for the blind
offer
any monthly payment plans? They want full payment and thats just not
possible. When I first applied to my local lions club for a reading
machine
they told me that it would take their whole anual budget just to pay for
it.
This prevents the blind from achieving the independence that the blind
truly want and they could care less. I am not saying that we should get
somthing for nothing but just work with us and charge a more reasonable
price for their products. Offer monthly payment plans and they will
sell
more products. They have no business sinse. There is a double standard
here. If we request braille we are told that the cost is to high and
only
10 percent of blind people read braille anyway. On the other hand they
ignore the 70-80 unimployment rate of the blind and expect us to pay
money
that we don't have. They are very selish and very inconciterate of our
needs the very people they claim to be in business for. I know that
nothing
will probably ever change unless the blind community as a whole demand
change. I doubt that will ever happen you just can't getthe blind to
unite
on any issue. Just some food for thought for what's werth.

Brian Sackrider


On 3/5/2020 4:04 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote:

If I operated a business, I probably would not send stuff out free
matter.
Did you have an agreement that they would send it out free matter? Did
you
get anything in writing saying this?

On Thu, Mar 5, 2020 at 1:01 PM heather albright <kd5cbl@...>
wrote:

No it was not a restocking fee. They charged me for something that
could
have been sent free matter. So if one orders something from them, be
prepared! That is all I am going to say on the subject! Heather



From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, March 5, 2020 2:58 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business



I don't know if your message is a valid warning. Are users told in
some
sort of straightforward way that returning something will involve a
restocking fee? I purchase very little and I have returned nothing.
What
is customary for those companies that specialize in dealing with blind
purchasers? Do they generally charge a restocking fee for returns? How
much? Is this company within what is customary now?



Aside from that, since all sorts of merchants charge restocking
fees
now, is the charge within what is reasonable for merchants in general?
Shipping isn't the question. Restocking fees aren't based on shipping
costs. they are a cost imposed for restocking a returned item.



Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: heather albright

Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2020 2:50 PM

To: TechTalk@groups.io

Subject: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business



Hello, I just want to worn anyone who does business that, this
company
does not return all your money even with items that could be shipped
free
matter for the blind. So LoganTech.

Proxtalker, be warned and go else where! Heather







--

Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
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by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
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attachments for security threats. However, security of your machine
is
up to you. Thanks.

Registered Linux User 529141.
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To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for windows XP
and above, please click here:
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You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at
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(393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly. Thank
you, and have a great day!




--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"




--
Affordably priced Accessible Talking MP3 Players, Accessible phones,
Bluetooth devices, and accessories
http://www.talkingmp3players.com/
Email: laz@...
Phone: 727-498-0121
Skype: lazmesa
Personal Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/laz.mesa
Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/Talkingmp3players?_rdr


locked Re: warning if you doing business

Carolyn Arnold
 

Lan has video instructions on all of his products.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io
[mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io] On Behalf Of Ann Parsons
Sent: Friday, March 6, 2020 8:15 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

Morning all,

Several points have been made in this discussion, but I want
to concentrate on Dave's assertion, and his amusement.

Dave, let me explain something to you. Stop being grumpy
and listen.
There are people in this world who actually need braille,
not prefer it, or desire it, but actually need it. These
are our friends who are DeafBlind. They cannot use any
audio materials spoken by either human or synthetic voices.
They need braille.

Second, RE the matter of Free Matter for the Blind. I would
not want equipment of any kind shipped Free Matter because
it takes so long to ship and also because it is treated like
third class mail, the potential for damage is great! I
don't think you can ship computers Free Matter. It has to
be something specifically designed for the blind, not
something that is available to all.

Now as to instructions sent with equipment for the blind,
many companies which sell material specifically designed for
the blind do, not, ship, accessible instructions with their
products!! They don't ship large print. They don't ship
braille. They don't ship audio, nothing accessible, only a
printed pamphlet! This is unconscionable!
A person who is blind should receive instructions in some
kind of accessible format, period! It could be an audio CD,
or a braille hard copy or a braille file, but something!
Instead, they ship their products with printed instructions,
expecting the blind person to be able to access them
somehow. Roger Behm is the *only* businessman I know of who
ships accessible instructions and manuals without being
asked. I had to get sighted help to label a calculator for
a student because the company which sent the thing didn't
bother including accessible instructions.

Ann P.


Original message:
Gosh, a couple of you had me Laughing Out Loud!

Complaining about having to pay Postage, and that Braille
instructions
don[t come in the package?

Sheesh!  Be Dam Thankful you get an Audio file!   but,
Braille?


Now that was Funny!  I Needed a Good Laugh today.

Grumpy Dave
--
Ann K. Parsons
Portal Tutoring
EMAIL: akp@...
Author of The Demmies: http://www.dldbooks.com/annparsons/
Portal Tutoring web site: http://www.portaltutoring.info
Skype: Putertutor

"All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost."


locked Re: warning if you doing business

Carolyn Arnold
 

Definitely not have to pay $1,000 for new iPhone - got 11 for $648.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io [mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io] On Behalf Of James Bentley
Sent: Friday, March 6, 2020 5:34 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

You do not have to pay one thousand dollars for an iPhone.



You can purchase a brand new iPhone 8 for around $450. Certified Refurbrished by Apple iPhones are even less expensive.



Apple provides life time 24 hour tech support for the blind. How can you beat that? I recently aquired totally free assistance on my seven year old Apple TV around 2 in the morning . Are any other tech companies serving the blind like this?



James B



From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Victor
Sent: Thursday, March 5, 2020 10:54 PM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business



Hello again:



I would just like to point out that there are less expensive android phones that are accessible to the blind. These are worth looking into if one is interested. The iPhone is not the only option for accessibility.



Victor







On Mar 5, 2020, at 8:42 PM, Stan Bobbitt <stan.bobbitt@... <mailto:stan.bobbitt@...> > wrote:



I just gotta toss an amen brother on that one LOL.

StanB

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io> <main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io> > On Behalf Of Gerald Levy via Groups.Io
Sent: Thursday, March 5, 2020 5:47 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business





Here's why I have a big problem with your argument. Sure, blindness merchants take advantage of us blind consumers by charging outrageous prices on many products and then tacking on ridiculously high S&H fees. But I never hear anyone complain about paying $1000 for an IPhone, perhaps because it is a mainstream product and is the same price for everyone. And Apple is perceived by many blind consumers as a "wonderful" company that really cares about accessibility, so they can get away with it. One grand for a freaking telephone that doesn't even have any tactile buttons? Give me a break.



Gerald







On 3/5/2020 4:55 PM, brian wrote:

We should not do business with any company that will not mail out products that do qualafy for free matter. Tell them that they don't then we will go else whear. If companies can't deal with the cost of doing business then they don't belong in business. It's bad enough when companies that sell products for the blind refuse to provide us with accessable meterials such as manuals and catalogs. They all do this and neither Acb or Nfb are doing anything about this. They just don't care about real world problems of the blind they are a very big joke. They have always been and will always will be. Companies that sell products for the blind are proving that they really don't care about the needs of the blind they just want our money. They are taking advantage of and they should all be very ashamed of themselves. What a big scam? They just can't comprehend that the majority of theblind are either unimployed living on ssi or ssdi income that barly pays for your monthly living expensive. There is very little room for expensive products in their budgets. Thats just reality but they will never comprehend that. How many companies that sell products for the blind offer any monthly payment plans? They want full payment and thats just not possible. When I first applied to my local lions club for a reading machine they told me that it would take their whole anual budget just to pay for it. This prevents the blind from achieving the independence that the blind truly want and they could care less. I am not saying that we should get somthing for nothing but just work with us and charge a more reasonable price for their products. Offer monthly payment plans and they will sell more products. They have no business sinse. There is a double standard here. If we request braille we are told that the cost is to high and only 10 percent of blind people read braille anyway. On the other hand they ignore the 70-80 unimployment rate of the blind and expect us to pay money that we don't have. They are very selish and very inconciterate of our needs the very people they claim to be in business for. I know that nothing will probably ever change unless the blind community as a whole demand change. I doubt that will ever happen you just can't getthe blind to unite on any issue. Just some food for thought for what's werth.

Brian Sackrider

On 3/5/2020 4:04 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote:

If I operated a business, I probably would not send stuff out free matter. Did you have an agreement that they would send it out free matter? Did you get anything in writing saying this?



On Thu, Mar 5, 2020 at 1:01 PM heather albright <kd5cbl@... <mailto:kd5cbl@...> > wrote:

No it was not a restocking fee. They charged me for something that could have been sent free matter. So if one orders something from them, be prepared! That is all I am going to say on the subject! Heather



From: Gene <mailto:gsasner@...>
Sent: Thursday, March 5, 2020 2:58 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business



I don't know if your message is a valid warning. Are users told in some sort of straightforward way that returning something will involve a restocking fee? I purchase very little and I have returned nothing. What is customary for those companies that specialize in dealing with blind purchasers? Do they generally charge a restocking fee for returns? How much? Is this company within what is customary now?



Aside from that, since all sorts of merchants charge restocking fees now, is the charge within what is reasonable for merchants in general? Shipping isn't the question. Restocking fees aren't based on shipping costs. they are a cost imposed for restocking a returned item.



Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: heather albright <mailto:kd5cbl@...>

Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2020 2:50 PM

To: TechTalk@groups.io <mailto:TechTalk@groups.io>

Subject: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business



Hello, I just want to worn anyone who does business that, this company does not return all your money even with items that could be shipped free matter for the blind. So LoganTech.

Proxtalker, be warned and go else where! Heather










--

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Nimer Jaber

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locked Re: warning if you doing business

Carolyn Arnold
 

Indeed, probably speech is cheaper to provide, so I would not disclaim it, just to have Braille as an option.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io [mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, March 5, 2020 8:38 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

What you have written can't properly be discussed for reasons I'll explain in these comments.

First, I have no idea what you mean because you don't do what is essential to do as one of the starting points of any philosophical or so many other discussions, you don't define your terms. If you don't define your terms, how do we know that we are talking about the same things?

I have no idea what you mean by audio. Do you mean someone reading as an audio book? Do you mean a computer using an audio synthesizer? the two are completely different. I can look up information as fast as you can if you are using a computer with Braille Output and I am using a computer with speech output. If that is what you are talking about, your statement is factually incorrect. it isn't even a matter of opinion. If you are talking about someone using a paper Braille dictionary or encyclopedia and tnother person using a print dictionary or encyclopedia, then the print user will be able to look up information faster. Again, your statement is factually incorrrect. Try to look up a word using a 72 volume Brailld dictionary as quickly as a sighted perso using the same dictionary in one print volume. Since I have no idea what you are comparing to what, I can only make statements of this sort because you didn't define your terms.

And like it or not, some blind people find Braille faster and more easy to retain information from and others find speech faster and more easy to retain information from. I find speech much faster and easier to retain information from. But I don't say ridiculous things like there should be speech and no Braille. You may find Braille faster and easier. But that doesn't give you any logical basis for saying that there should be all Braille and no speech.

I've read my share of Braille. I can listen to speech at about 350 words per minute comfortably and with good retension. I can read Braille at about 180 words per minute, with good retension. I find it more tiring to read Braille.

I believe that blind children should learn Braille just as sighted children should learn print. But making statements such as that there should be all Braille and no speech are preposterous.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: brian <mailto:bsackrider55@...>
Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2020 7:03 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

What do you have against braille? The sighted have print and we should have braille. Braille will always be the most efficient way to look somthing up just try to find what you want on an audio cd. We should have all braille and no audio.

Brian Sackrider

On 3/5/2020 7:35 PM, Dave wrote:
Gosh, a couple of you had me Laughing Out Loud!


Complaining about having to pay Postage, and that Braille instructions
don[t come in the package?


Sheesh! Be Dam Thankful you get an Audio file! but, Braille?


Now that was Funny! I Needed a Good Laugh today.


Grumpy Dave






locked Re: warning if you doing business

Carolyn Arnold
 

True enough. They have ballots in Spanish, but not Braille, and like my coworker said, back when I was still working, "you can't learn to see."

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io [mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io] On Behalf Of brian
Sent: Thursday, March 5, 2020 8:03 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

What do you have against braille? The sighted have print and we should have braille. Braille will always be the most efficient way to look somthing up just try to find what you want on an audio cd. We should have all braille and no audio.

Brian Sackrider

On 3/5/2020 7:35 PM, Dave wrote:
Gosh, a couple of you had me Laughing Out Loud!


Complaining about having to pay Postage, and that Braille instructions
don[t come in the package?


Sheesh! Be Dam Thankful you get an Audio file! but, Braille?


Now that was Funny! I Needed a Good Laugh today.


Grumpy Dave






A thought on discussions such as the current Braille one

Gene
 

As list owner, I thought this would be a good time to explain why I allow such discussions as the Braille one to continue.  Some list owners see such lists of this kind as an almost exclusively question and answer list where technical questions are posed and answered or discussed.  I see this list as going beyond that to an extent.  Too much discussion of a philosophical nature would detract from the list but a certain amount, from time to time, allows list members to develop a sense of community and to learn a little bit aboutother members.  I don't think it is good for a list if people just discuss technical problems without ever having any human contact.  Its isolating. 
 
Some people may have been wondering why I allow such discussions or why I don't stop them much sooner.  If a discussion goes on too long and is producing mostly repetitive comments, or if a topic comes up which is divisive and causing ill feeling on the list, I would stop them.  But the Braille topic is not doing so.  A little disagreement is not the same as ill feeling. 
If people have comments about this question, they may write me at
gsasner at gmail.com.  Don't forget to use the actual at sign in stead of the written out word.  I used the written out word to stop bots from harvesting my address for spam. 
 
Gene, owner


locked Re: warning if you doing business

Marie <magpie.mn@...>
 

Very well said, Victor. Since I am one of the group you mentioned I remember the incident and since I am also one of the people who had some useable sight until fairly late in life, I could not agree with you more.
At 59 I did not want to learn braille other than the alphabet. And I would put my skills with audio and digital media up against the braille user any day.

-----Original Message-----
From: Victor
Sent: Thursday, March 5, 2020 8:42 PM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

Hello everyone:

I would like to point out that many blind people lose their eyesight later in life and they find it too difficult to learn braille. It is much easier for them to access information by listening to audio. It’s hard enough for them to get over losing their eyesight and live without seeing their loved ones or other things ever again. The last thing they want is to learn a new skill that they may find just too difficult.

After obtaining my iPhone, I attended a users group where are the people taught each other to use iOS devices. While at the group one day, one of the group leaders brought a focus 40 refreshable braille display for everyone to examine. I was the only blind person in the room interested in touching the device because I knew braille and I owned a previous generation of that device. It was not discussed, but I knew that they were not interested because most of them had lost their eyesight later in life. I suspect that they found it much easier to listen to audio than reading braille. Plus, most of them had learned how to access information using their iPhones. I’m sure they found it much easier to whip out their iPhones and listen to their books, podcasts, scan documents and do everything else we can do with our iPhones. I realize that not everyone owns a smart phone because they have not found a way to obtain one. I also realize that not everyone is into these types of gadgets. However, many blind people have discovered how great these gadgets are and how useful they can be in helping them become more independent. For many of us, that is the route we have chosen.

In any case, don’t be too surprised if you meet a blind person who is not interested in learning braille. Don’t be too hard on those people. Maybe they just prefer to do what is easier.

I am so glad that refreshable braille displays exist now. I am also glad that low cost refreshable braille displays are being developed. I definitely don’t miss the days of carrying bulky braille books to and from my classes. I do not miss the days of trying to look up words in the dictionary and dealing with a whole bookshelf of braille books. No thank you! I do not miss my five volume braille New Testament.

If I did not already on a refreshable braille display, I would definitely look into obtaining the orbit braille reader or the braille me.


Anyhow, these are just my rambling opinions.

Victor Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 5, 2020, at 7:40 PM, brian <bsackrider55@...> wrote:

 Thanks Grumpy Dave for your explination. I would be willing to pay a few dollars to get braille. I am not saying that I should get for free but not to have the option is my complaint. My local liberary use to provide braille for 10 cents per page. I was also told that if I provided the paper they would braille what I wanted. They required 67 weight paper which I can get at Staples. All to often we are forced to except only audio as the only format that is available. Braille will always be my prefered format because I prefer to read for myself instead of just listen. You say that you hate braille but you can use it well I feel the same about audio. Why do we have to be locked in to just one format? How many people would rather read than listen? Blind or sighted. People who prefer to read than should be commended instead of being kind of bashed for it. If not many blind people request braille than it should be no trouble to provide it. Braille is not that dificult to produce once you have the equipment. my liberary had no trouble all they needed was files in microsoft word and the paper and they were good to go. I use to get my weekly meterials for my church all in grade 2 braille. It was really great to finally be an active participant in the service instead just a pasive listener. To be able to read along with everyone else the verses and hyms and classes lessons is a great feeling you just can't discribe the independence that it givesyou. It's kind of like having access to dvs you can finally know what is going on when there is all of that dead air. I was able to read infront of the church and be active in bible study and even lead the groop all using braille. I do use braille menus when ever possible even if I don't really need it just to let them see that somone is acually using it. Braille has given me a very full life and I don't know whear my life would be with out braille. I feel that every blind person who is able to read braille should learn it. I do understand that there are blind people who have medical conditions that prevents them from being able to read braille. For them they have no choice but to use audio but I do have the choice I just don't like being limited to just audio only and not braille. You hate braille and I hate audio. a good example of when I wish that I had braille instead of a file was when I requested my local newspaper to be accessable. my lions club purchassed a sara reading machine for me there was no braille manual but there was a print manual. I had to go to the help file on the machine and try to find what I wanted. When I called the paper office they asked what files my machine could read. If I had a braille manual I could have just looked it up while on the phone and gave them the answer. I had to call back after I went to the help file and found it. This is very time concuming I can look up somthing much faster in braille than any other format. I am not saying that I can do it as quick as a sighted person can with print but for me it's the fastest way for me to get the job done. When I was a kid I attended the Michigan school the blind in Lansing and we had to learn braille and all of our books were in braille. There was no I don't want to learn it you had to. I will say that I can certainly listen much faster than I can read but when it comes to looking up somthing braille is faster hands down. I have been blind since birth and thats all I ever knew was braille. It's like the sighted grew up with print. I wanted to learn the opticon at the rehab center but they would not let me because they said that I was not fast enough. I felt that I was learning and making progress and I should had the right to continue but they said no. If somone really wants to learn a new skil then they should beallowed to do so. If I am determind to learn somthing that then I will even though it might take more time then the teacher would like. I guess that modavation means nothing. If somone reallly wants to learn braille so what ifit takes several month to do so they should not be told no you can't continue. If companies had the equipment to produce braille they could charge me for the cost of the paper to get braille manuals or catalogs.

On 3/5/2020 9:26 PM, Dave wrote:
Hello Brian,


I have nothing against Braille other than the hassle it is to create it,
such as a Manual in Braille.


I've been blind for a long time now, and there were many times when I
would have Kissed the Feet of anyone who gave me a manual in Audio
format. many times have I had to just Wing it, learning by Guess and by
Golly. Once Computers became a Tool for the Blind, Guessing was not
always the best thing to do, as guessing wrong could ruin your day in a
Big way. Still can.


but, Brian, I have no Beef with Braille. To produce it is just not an
easy task. And I would guess that most manufacturers of items for the
blind, may not want to hire another Staff member to do nothing but print
out Manuals in Braille.


Yes, it all sounds good, until the costs of doing such a thing is
considered.


These days, I do expect a Manual at least in a PDF format, if not an
Audio file. And if I own my own Braille Printer, I can then print out
the PDF file.


Although, I can't afford one of those printers, so I do without.


However, I could run the Audio file through an Audio to Text converter,
and then print that file out in Braille.


When I get nothing but an On Line Manual, where I need to go On Line to
read the thing. I am Thankful for at least that much, but I always look
to see if I can just download the manual so I don't need to be going On
Line so much.


Call it my personal Taste.


I would think most who are Blind have learned over and over again to
look for Work Arounds for doing many things in Life.


You like Braille, and while I do use it, I Hate it. So a Braille Manual
would be a waste of resources to send me one.


You Love it, and can use it well. So, when the Company doesn't send a
manual in Braille, but has sent you one in PDF, or even Audio, if you
want a manual in Braille, the Work around is to convert that Audio or
PDF file into Braille. And if you are like me, and can't afford a
Braille Printer, there are Services that will take your Manual file and
make you a manual in Braille.


it may cost you a few dollars, which again is all part of the Life of
someone who is Blind. In the past, I have hired Readers to read Manuals
on Tape. Paid them $10 for every hour of Recorded material.


I've paid people to read my Mail. This was before smart Phones had
built in Cameras and OCR programs. I paid them $10 an hour too. this
was back in the 1980's and 90's.


I haven't had to hire anyone for about 20 years now


And Dare I bring up the Quality of Manuals? So often, regardless of
what Format it comes in, the information in the thing is totally Nuts!
It doesn't make Sense, and you can't tell if it is a Translation of
something in Chinese to English, or from Chinese to Spanish and then
Russian, and then to English etc.


And some manuals that come in English are so poorly written, lack
helpful information and seem to be missing a great deal of actual
instructional information and are next to useless in any format.


Grumpy Dave






locked Re: warning if you doing business

Ann Parsons
 

Morning all,

Several points have been made in this discussion, but I want to concentrate on Dave's assertion, and his amusement.

Dave, let me explain something to you. Stop being grumpy and listen. There are people in this world who actually need braille, not prefer it, or desire it, but actually need it. These are our friends who are DeafBlind. They cannot use any audio materials spoken by either human or synthetic voices. They need braille.

Second, RE the matter of Free Matter for the Blind. I would not want equipment of any kind shipped Free Matter because it takes so long to ship and also because it is treated like third class mail, the potential for damage is great! I don't think you can ship computers Free Matter. It has to be something specifically designed for the blind, not something that is available to all.

Now as to instructions sent with equipment for the blind, many companies which sell material specifically designed for the blind do, not, ship, accessible instructions with their products!! They don't ship large print. They don't ship braille. They don't ship audio, nothing accessible, only a printed pamphlet! This is unconscionable! A person who is blind should receive instructions in some kind of accessible format, period! It could be an audio CD, or a braille hard copy or a braille file, but something! Instead, they ship their products with printed instructions, expecting the blind person to be able to access them somehow. Roger Behm is the *only* businessman I know of who ships accessible instructions and manuals without being asked. I had to get sighted help to label a calculator for a student because the company which sent the thing didn't bother including accessible instructions.

Ann P.


Original message:

Gosh, a couple of you had me Laughing Out Loud!

Complaining about having to pay Postage, and that Braille instructions
don[t come in the package?

Sheesh!  Be Dam Thankful you get an Audio file!   but, Braille?

Now that was Funny!  I Needed a Good Laugh today.

Grumpy Dave
--
Ann K. Parsons
Portal Tutoring
EMAIL: akp@...
Author of The Demmies: http://www.dldbooks.com/annparsons/
Portal Tutoring web site: http://www.portaltutoring.info
Skype: Putertutor

"All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost."


locked Re: warning if you doing business

chris judge
 

Referring to the iPhone, or any other smart phone as a telephone is amusing. The phone function is a very small part of the device, and is probably used less than most other features. The smart phone is a hand-held computer, and considering what it can do I don’t consider most of them to be that over priced.

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Victor
Sent: March 6, 2020 12:54 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

 

Hello again:

 

I would just like to point out that there are less expensive android phones that are accessible to the blind. These are worth looking into if one is interested. The iPhone is not the only option for accessibility.

 

Victor

 



On Mar 5, 2020, at 8:42 PM, Stan Bobbitt <stan.bobbitt@...> wrote:



I just gotta toss an amen brother on that one LOL.

StanB

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gerald Levy via Groups.Io
Sent: Thursday, March 5, 2020 5:47 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

 

 

Here's why I have a big problem with your argument.  Sure, blindness merchants take advantage of us blind consumers by charging outrageous prices on many products and then tacking on ridiculously high S&H fees.  But I never hear anyone complain about paying $1000 for an IPhone, perhaps because it is a mainstream product and is the same price for everyone.  And Apple is perceived by many blind consumers as a "wonderful" company that really cares about accessibility, so they can get away with it.  One grand for a freaking telephone that doesn't even have any tactile buttons?  Give me a break.

 

Gerald

 

 

 

On 3/5/2020 4:55 PM, brian wrote:

    We should not do business with any company that will not mail out products that do qualafy for free matter.  Tell them that they don't then we will go else whear.  If companies can't deal with the cost of doing business then they don't belong in business.  It's bad enough when companies that sell products for the blind refuse to provide us with accessable meterials such as manuals and catalogs.  They all do this and neither Acb or Nfb are doing anything about this.  They just don't care about real world problems of the blind they are a very big joke.  They have always been and will always will be.  Companies that sell products for the blind are proving that they really don't care about the needs of the blind they just want our money.  They are taking advantage of and they should all be very ashamed of themselves.  What a big scam?  They just can't comprehend that the majority of theblind are either unimployed living on ssi or ssdi income that barly pays for your monthly living expensive.  There is very little room for expensive products in their budgets.  Thats just reality but they will never comprehend that.  How many companies that sell products for the blind offer any monthly payment plans?  They want full payment and thats just not possible.  When I first applied to my local lions club for a reading machine they told me that it would take their whole anual budget just to pay for it.  This prevents the blind from achieving the independence that the blind truly want and they could care less.  I am not saying that we should get somthing for nothing but just work with us and charge a more reasonable price for their products.  Offer monthly payment plans and they will sell more products.  They have no business sinse.  There is a double standard here.  If we request braille we are told that the cost is to high and only 10 percent of blind people read braille anyway.  On the other hand they ignore the 70-80 unimployment rate of the blind and expect us to pay money that we don't have.   They are very selish and very inconciterate of our needs the very people they claim to be in business for.  I know that nothing will probably ever change unless the blind community as a whole demand change.  I doubt that will ever happen you just can't getthe blind to unite on any issue.  Just some food for thought for what's werth.

Brian Sackrider 

On 3/5/2020 4:04 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote:

If I operated a business, I probably would not send stuff out free matter. Did you have an agreement that they would send it out free matter? Did you get anything in writing saying this?

 

On Thu, Mar 5, 2020 at 1:01 PM heather albright <kd5cbl@...> wrote:

No it was not a restocking fee. They charged me for something that could have been sent free matter. So if one orders something from them, be prepared! That is all I am going to say on the subject! Heather

 

From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, March 5, 2020 2:58 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

 

I don't know if your message is a valid warning.  Are users told in some sort of straightforward way that returning something will involve a restocking fee?  I purchase very little and I have returned nothing.  What is customary for those companies that specialize in dealing with blind purchasers?  Do they generally charge a restocking fee for returns?  How much?  Is this company within what is customary now? 

 

Aside from that, since all sorts of merchants charge restocking fees now, is the charge within what is reasonable for merchants in general?  Shipping isn't the question.  Restocking fees aren't based on shipping costs.  they are a cost imposed for restocking a returned item.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2020 2:50 PM

Subject: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

 

Hello, I just want to worn anyone who does business that, this company does not return all your money even with items that could be shipped free matter for the blind. So LoganTech.

Proxtalker, be warned and go else where! Heather

 

 


 

--

Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats. However, security of your machine is
up to you. Thanks.

Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for windows XP
and above, please click here:
http://www.nvda-project.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970) (393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly. Thank
you, and have a great day!


locked Re: warning if you doing business

chris judge
 

This is true. There is a huge difference between not learning braille if you've lost your site later in life. The unfortunate fact is that even people who are blind since birth are not learning braille at the rate they were when I was a kid 50 years ago. If you are blind since birth and you don't learn braille you miss out on basic literacy. How do you learn proper spelling, grammar, punctuation and such if you don't learn braile. If you have had site you already understand these things so knowing braille isn't as paramount.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Victor
Sent: March 6, 2020 12:42 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

Hello everyone:

I would like to point out that many blind people lose their eyesight later in life and they find it too difficult to learn braille. It is much easier for them to access information by listening to audio. It’s hard enough for them to get over losing their eyesight and live without seeing their loved ones or other things ever again. The last thing they want is to learn a new skill that they may find just too difficult.

After obtaining my iPhone, I attended a users group where are the people taught each other to use iOS devices. While at the group one day, one of the group leaders brought a focus 40 refreshable braille display for everyone to examine. I was the only blind person in the room interested in touching the device because I knew braille and I owned a previous generation of that device. It was not discussed, but I knew that they were not interested because most of them had lost their eyesight later in life. I suspect that they found it much easier to listen to audio than reading braille. Plus, most of them had learned how to access information using their iPhones. I’m sure they found it much easier to whip out their iPhones and listen to their books, podcasts, scan documents and do everything else we can do with our iPhones. I realize that not everyone owns a smart phone because they have not found a way to obtain one. I also realize that not everyone is into these types of gadgets. However, many blind people have discovered how great these gadgets are and how useful they can be in helping them become more independent. For many of us, that is the route we have chosen.

In any case, don’t be too surprised if you meet a blind person who is not interested in learning braille. Don’t be too hard on those people. Maybe they just prefer to do what is easier.

I am so glad that refreshable braille displays exist now. I am also glad that low cost refreshable braille displays are being developed. I definitely don’t miss the days of carrying bulky braille books to and from my classes. I do not miss the days of trying to look up words in the dictionary and dealing with a whole bookshelf of braille books. No thank you! I do not miss my five volume braille New Testament.

If I did not already on a refreshable braille display, I would definitely look into obtaining the orbit braille reader or the braille me.


Anyhow, these are just my rambling opinions.

Victor Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 5, 2020, at 7:40 PM, brian <bsackrider55@...> wrote:

 Thanks Grumpy Dave for your explination. I would be willing to pay a few dollars to get braille. I am not saying that I should get for free but not to have the option is my complaint. My local liberary use to provide braille for 10 cents per page. I was also told that if I provided the paper they would braille what I wanted. They required 67 weight paper which I can get at Staples. All to often we are forced to except only audio as the only format that is available. Braille will always be my prefered format because I prefer to read for myself instead of just listen. You say that you hate braille but you can use it well I feel the same about audio. Why do we have to be locked in to just one format? How many people would rather read than listen? Blind or sighted. People who prefer to read than should be commended instead of being kind of bashed for it. If not many blind people request braille than it should be no trouble to provide it. Braille is not that dificult to produce once you have the equipment. my liberary had no trouble all they needed was files in microsoft word and the paper and they were good to go. I use to get my weekly meterials for my church all in grade 2 braille. It was really great to finally be an active participant in the service instead just a pasive listener. To be able to read along with everyone else the verses and hyms and classes lessons is a great feeling you just can't discribe the independence that it givesyou. It's kind of like having access to dvs you can finally know what is going on when there is all of that dead air. I was able to read infront of the church and be active in bible study and even lead the groop all using braille. I do use braille menus when ever possible even if I don't really need it just to let them see that somone is acually using it. Braille has given me a very full life and I don't know whear my life would be with out braille. I feel that every blind person who is able to read braille should learn it. I do understand that there are blind people who have medical conditions that prevents them from being able to read braille. For them they have no choice but to use audio but I do have the choice I just don't like being limited to just audio only and not braille. You hate braille and I hate audio. a good example of when I wish that I had braille instead of a file was when I requested my local newspaper to be accessable. my lions club purchassed a sara reading machine for me there was no braille manual but there was a print manual. I had to go to the help file on the machine and try to find what I wanted. When I called the paper office they asked what files my machine could read. If I had a braille manual I could have just looked it up while on the phone and gave them the answer. I had to call back after I went to the help file and found it. This is very time concuming I can look up somthing much faster in braille than any other format. I am not saying that I can do it as quick as a sighted person can with print but for me it's the fastest way for me to get the job done. When I was a kid I attended the Michigan school the blind in Lansing and we had to learn braille and all of our books were in braille. There was no I don't want to learn it you had to. I will say that I can certainly listen much faster than I can read but when it comes to looking up somthing braille is faster hands down. I have been blind since birth and thats all I ever knew was braille. It's like the sighted grew up with print. I wanted to learn the opticon at the rehab center but they would not let me because they said that I was not fast enough. I felt that I was learning and making progress and I should had the right to continue but they said no. If somone really wants to learn a new skil then they should beallowed to do so. If I am determind to learn somthing that then I will even though it might take more time then the teacher would like. I guess that modavation means nothing. If somone reallly wants to learn braille so what ifit takes several month to do so they should not be told no you can't continue. If companies had the equipment to produce braille they could charge me for the cost of the paper to get braille manuals or catalogs.

On 3/5/2020 9:26 PM, Dave wrote:
Hello Brian,


I have nothing against Braille other than the hassle it is to create
it, such as a Manual in Braille.


I've been blind for a long time now, and there were many times when I
would have Kissed the Feet of anyone who gave me a manual in Audio
format. many times have I had to just Wing it, learning by Guess and
by Golly. Once Computers became a Tool for the Blind, Guessing was
not always the best thing to do, as guessing wrong could ruin your
day in a Big way. Still can.


but, Brian, I have no Beef with Braille. To produce it is just not an
easy task. And I would guess that most manufacturers of items for
the blind, may not want to hire another Staff member to do nothing
but print out Manuals in Braille.


Yes, it all sounds good, until the costs of doing such a thing is
considered.


These days, I do expect a Manual at least in a PDF format, if not an
Audio file. And if I own my own Braille Printer, I can then print
out the PDF file.


Although, I can't afford one of those printers, so I do without.


However, I could run the Audio file through an Audio to Text
converter, and then print that file out in Braille.


When I get nothing but an On Line Manual, where I need to go On Line
to read the thing. I am Thankful for at least that much, but I
always look to see if I can just download the manual so I don't need
to be going On Line so much.


Call it my personal Taste.


I would think most who are Blind have learned over and over again to
look for Work Arounds for doing many things in Life.


You like Braille, and while I do use it, I Hate it. So a Braille
Manual would be a waste of resources to send me one.


You Love it, and can use it well. So, when the Company doesn't send
a manual in Braille, but has sent you one in PDF, or even Audio, if
you want a manual in Braille, the Work around is to convert that Audio or
PDF file into Braille. And if you are like me, and can't afford a
Braille Printer, there are Services that will take your Manual file
and make you a manual in Braille.


it may cost you a few dollars, which again is all part of the Life of
someone who is Blind. In the past, I have hired Readers to read
Manuals on Tape. Paid them $10 for every hour of Recorded material.


I've paid people to read my Mail. This was before smart Phones had
built in Cameras and OCR programs. I paid them $10 an hour too. this
was back in the 1980's and 90's.


I haven't had to hire anyone for about 20 years now


And Dare I bring up the Quality of Manuals? So often, regardless of
what Format it comes in, the information in the thing is totally Nuts!
It doesn't make Sense, and you can't tell if it is a Translation of
something in Chinese to English, or from Chinese to Spanish and then
Russian, and then to English etc.


And some manuals that come in English are so poorly written, lack
helpful information and seem to be missing a great deal of actual
instructional information and are next to useless in any format.


Grumpy Dave






locked Re: warning if you doing business

James Bentley
 

You do not have to pay one thousand dollars for an iPhone.

 

You can purchase a brand new iPhone 8  for around $450.  Certified  Refurbrished  by Apple iPhones are even less expensive.

 

Apple provides life time 24 hour tech support for the blind.  How can you beat that?  I recently aquired totally free assistance on my seven year old Apple TV around 2 in the morning .  Are any other tech companies serving the blind like this?

 

James B 

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Victor
Sent: Thursday, March 5, 2020 10:54 PM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

 

Hello again:

 

I would just like to point out that there are less expensive android phones that are accessible to the blind. These are worth looking into if one is interested. The iPhone is not the only option for accessibility.

 

Victor

 



On Mar 5, 2020, at 8:42 PM, Stan Bobbitt <stan.bobbitt@...> wrote:



I just gotta toss an amen brother on that one LOL.

StanB

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gerald Levy via Groups.Io
Sent: Thursday, March 5, 2020 5:47 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

 

 

Here's why I have a big problem with your argument.  Sure, blindness merchants take advantage of us blind consumers by charging outrageous prices on many products and then tacking on ridiculously high S&H fees.  But I never hear anyone complain about paying $1000 for an IPhone, perhaps because it is a mainstream product and is the same price for everyone.  And Apple is perceived by many blind consumers as a "wonderful" company that really cares about accessibility, so they can get away with it.  One grand for a freaking telephone that doesn't even have any tactile buttons?  Give me a break.

 

Gerald

 

 

 

On 3/5/2020 4:55 PM, brian wrote:

    We should not do business with any company that will not mail out products that do qualafy for free matter.  Tell them that they don't then we will go else whear.  If companies can't deal with the cost of doing business then they don't belong in business.  It's bad enough when companies that sell products for the blind refuse to provide us with accessable meterials such as manuals and catalogs.  They all do this and neither Acb or Nfb are doing anything about this.  They just don't care about real world problems of the blind they are a very big joke.  They have always been and will always will be.  Companies that sell products for the blind are proving that they really don't care about the needs of the blind they just want our money.  They are taking advantage of and they should all be very ashamed of themselves.  What a big scam?  They just can't comprehend that the majority of theblind are either unimployed living on ssi or ssdi income that barly pays for your monthly living expensive.  There is very little room for expensive products in their budgets.  Thats just reality but they will never comprehend that.  How many companies that sell products for the blind offer any monthly payment plans?  They want full payment and thats just not possible.  When I first applied to my local lions club for a reading machine they told me that it would take their whole anual budget just to pay for it.  This prevents the blind from achieving the independence that the blind truly want and they could care less.  I am not saying that we should get somthing for nothing but just work with us and charge a more reasonable price for their products.  Offer monthly payment plans and they will sell more products.  They have no business sinse.  There is a double standard here.  If we request braille we are told that the cost is to high and only 10 percent of blind people read braille anyway.  On the other hand they ignore the 70-80 unimployment rate of the blind and expect us to pay money that we don't have.   They are very selish and very inconciterate of our needs the very people they claim to be in business for.  I know that nothing will probably ever change unless the blind community as a whole demand change.  I doubt that will ever happen you just can't getthe blind to unite on any issue.  Just some food for thought for what's werth.

Brian Sackrider 

On 3/5/2020 4:04 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote:

If I operated a business, I probably would not send stuff out free matter. Did you have an agreement that they would send it out free matter? Did you get anything in writing saying this?

 

On Thu, Mar 5, 2020 at 1:01 PM heather albright <kd5cbl@...> wrote:

No it was not a restocking fee. They charged me for something that could have been sent free matter. So if one orders something from them, be prepared! That is all I am going to say on the subject! Heather

 

From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, March 5, 2020 2:58 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

 

I don't know if your message is a valid warning.  Are users told in some sort of straightforward way that returning something will involve a restocking fee?  I purchase very little and I have returned nothing.  What is customary for those companies that specialize in dealing with blind purchasers?  Do they generally charge a restocking fee for returns?  How much?  Is this company within what is customary now? 

 

Aside from that, since all sorts of merchants charge restocking fees now, is the charge within what is reasonable for merchants in general?  Shipping isn't the question.  Restocking fees aren't based on shipping costs.  they are a cost imposed for restocking a returned item.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2020 2:50 PM

Subject: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

 

Hello, I just want to worn anyone who does business that, this company does not return all your money even with items that could be shipped free matter for the blind. So LoganTech.

Proxtalker, be warned and go else where! Heather

 

 


 

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Nimer Jaber

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locked Re: warning if you doing business

Ron Canazzi
 

Hi Brian,

One other thing I forgot to directly mention about Braille is that it can take years for you to obtain a just released book that is available for sighted people.  For example, when I was in school, I seldom  was able to get an updated version of a text book in Braille.  On the other hand, now-of-days, you can get most text books in Kindle or audio format, the day they are released to the public.  This was always a hassle when I went to college years before the technological revolution that opened so many doors for education and employment for blind people. Now if we could only get the employers to hire us at the same rate that they hire sighted people, we be good to go.

On 3/5/2020 10:40 PM, brian wrote:
Thanks Grumpy Dave for your explination.  I would be willing to pay a few dollars to get braille. I am not saying that I should get for free but not to have the option is my complaint.  My local liberary use to provide braille for 10 cents per page.   I was also told that if I provided the paper they would braille what I wanted.  They required 67 weight paper which I can get at Staples.  All to often we are forced to except only audio as the only format that is available. Braille will always be my prefered format because I prefer to read for myself instead of just listen.  You say that you hate braille but you can use it well I feel the same about audio.  Why do we have to be locked in to just one format?  How many people would rather read than listen?  Blind or sighted.  People who prefer to read than should be commended instead of being kind of bashed for it.  If not many blind people request braille than it should be no trouble to provide it. Braille is not that dificult to produce once you have the equipment.  my liberary had no trouble all they needed was files in microsoft word and the paper and they were good to go.  I use to get my weekly meterials for my church all in grade 2 braille. It was really great to finally be an active participant in the service instead just a pasive listener.  To be able to read along with everyone else the verses and hyms and classes lessons is a great feeling you just can't discribe the independence that it givesyou.  It's kind of like having access to dvs you can finally know what is going on when there is all of that dead air.  I was able to read infront of the church and be active in bible study and even lead the groop all using braille.  I do use braille menus when ever possible even if I don't really need it just to let them see that somone is acually using it.  Braille has given me a very full life and I don't know whear my life would be with out braille.  I feel that every blind person who is able to read braille should learn it.  I do understand that there are blind people who have medical conditions that prevents them from being able to read braille.  For them they have no choice but to use audio but I do have the choice I just don't like being limited to just audio only and not braille.  You hate braille and I hate audio.  a good example of when I wish that I had braille instead of a file was when I requested my local newspaper to be accessable.  my lions club purchassed a sara reading machine for me there was no braille manual but there was a print manual.  I had to go to the help file on the machine and try to find what I wanted.  When I called the paper office they asked what files my machine could read.  If I had a braille manual I could have just looked it up while on the phone and gave them the answer.  I had to call back after I went to the help file and found it.  This is very time concuming I can look up somthing much faster in braille than any other format.  I am not saying that I can do it as quick as a sighted person can with print but for me it's the fastest way for me to get the job done.  When I was a kid I attended the Michigan school the blind in Lansing and we had to learn braille and all of our books were in braille.  There was no I don't want to learn it you had to.  I will say that I can certainly listen much faster than I can read but when it comes to looking up somthing braille is faster hands down.  I have been blind since birth and thats all I ever knew was braille.  It's like the sighted grew up with print.  I wanted to learn the opticon at the rehab center but they would not let me because they said that I was not fast enough.  I felt that I was learning and making progress and I should had the right to continue but they said no. If somone really wants to learn a new skil then they should beallowed to do so.  If I am determind to learn somthing that then I will even though it might take more time then the teacher would like.  I guess that modavation means nothing.  If somone reallly wants to learn braille so what ifit takes several month to do so they should not be told no you can't continue.  If companies had the equipment to produce braille they could charge me for the cost of the paper to get braille manuals or catalogs.

On 3/5/2020 9:26 PM, Dave wrote:
Hello Brian,


I have nothing against Braille other than the hassle it is to create it,
such as a Manual in Braille.


I've been blind for a long time now, and there were many times when I
would have Kissed the Feet of anyone who gave me a manual in Audio
format.  many times have I had to just Wing it, learning by Guess and by
Golly.  Once Computers became a Tool for the Blind, Guessing was not
always the best thing to do, as guessing wrong could ruin your day in a
Big way.  Still can.


but, Brian, I have no Beef with Braille.   To produce it is just not an
easy task.  And I would guess that most manufacturers of items for the
blind, may not want to hire another Staff member to do nothing but print
out Manuals in Braille.


Yes, it all sounds good, until the costs of doing such a thing is
considered.


These days, I do expect a Manual at least in a PDF format, if not an
Audio file.  And if I own my own Braille Printer, I can then print out
the PDF file.


Although, I can't afford one of those printers, so I do without.


However,  I could run the Audio file through an Audio to Text converter,
and then print that file out in Braille.


When I get nothing but an On Line Manual, where I need to go On Line to
read the thing.  I am Thankful for at least that much, but I always look
to see if I can just download the manual so I don't need to be going On
Line so much.


Call it my personal Taste.


I would think most who are Blind have learned over and over again to
look for Work Arounds for doing many things in Life.


You like Braille, and while I do use it, I Hate it.  So a Braille Manual
would be a waste of resources to send me one.


You Love it, and can use it well.  So, when the Company doesn't send a
manual in Braille, but has sent you one in PDF, or even Audio, if you
want a manual in Braille, the Work around is to convert that Audio or
PDF file into Braille.   And if you are like me, and can't afford a
Braille Printer, there are Services that will take your Manual file and
make you a manual in Braille.


it may cost you a few dollars, which again is all part of the Life of
someone who is Blind.  In the past, I have hired Readers to read Manuals
on Tape.  Paid them $10 for every hour of Recorded material.


I've paid people to read my Mail.  This was before smart Phones had
built in Cameras and OCR programs.   I paid them $10 an hour too. this
was back in the 1980's and 90's.


I haven't had to hire anyone for about 20 years now


And Dare I bring up the Quality of Manuals?  So often, regardless of
what Format it comes in, the information in the thing is totally Nuts!
It doesn't make Sense, and you can't tell if it is a Translation of
something in Chinese to English, or from Chinese to Spanish and then
Russian, and then to English etc.


And some manuals that come in English  are so poorly written, lack
helpful information and seem to be missing a great deal of actual
instructional information and are next to useless in any format.


Grumpy Dave






--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


locked Re: warning if you doing business

Ron Canazzi
 

Hi Brian,

While I admit that audio discs/mp3 files in their pure form are difficult to research with, there is the new Daisy format as well as Kindle, and audible audio books with bookmark and heading and navigation via page and other criteria that make audio formats much more usable for research and project type reading.

Braille on the other hand, is much more expensive, takes years to produce and is much more bulky and ridiculously clumsy to store in an apartment.  For example, I have a King James Version of the Bible that takes 18 bible-sized volumes and a concordance that takes 10 bible sized volumes.

On my computer in text/daisy format, I have 9 versions of the bible with easy navigation, research tools and concordances.  They take up no space and are totally accessible and usable and most of the elements of the program were free downloads.

On 3/5/2020 8:03 PM, brian wrote:
    What do you have against braille?  The sighted have print and we should have braille.  Braille will always be the most efficient way to look somthing up just try to find what you want on an audio cd. We should have all braille and no audio.

Brian Sackrider

On 3/5/2020 7:35 PM, Dave wrote:
Gosh, a couple of you had me Laughing Out Loud!


Complaining about having to pay Postage, and that Braille instructions
don[t come in the package?


Sheesh!  Be Dam Thankful you get an Audio file!   but, Braille?


Now that was Funny!  I Needed a Good Laugh today.


Grumpy Dave






--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"