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locked Re: warning if you doing business

Carolyn Arnold
 

When I was a medical secretary in a surgical pathology office, I used my Optacon for some dictionaries, code and drug books, patient name spelling - a lot of things. But, I had some Braille reference books and my slate and stylus for some note taking and personal filing. One of the doctors said that I worked, "in two languages."

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io [mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io] On Behalf Of Ron Canazzi
Sent: Saturday, March 7, 2020 12:38 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

Hi Evan,

Well this analysis while tightly argued, is like a biblical literalist that represents a false dialectic by only examining terminologies and factoids that support their own belief structure.

One falsehood of your argument is in semantics Since the perception of reading has been from time immemorial the use of one's eyes and printed material to intake facts derived by, thought of and/or written down by others. If so, then how is it that Braille can be thought of as the exact equivalent of print when it in fact is not. Not only is it not the same as a standard 26 character alphabet, but it also uses a different sense--that of the sense of touch to extract the ideas from the materials.

In a very strict sense of the syntactical world and using at least in part, your own rigid interpretation of 'reading' actually is, then you as a Braille reader really aren't reading in the classic sense of the word either.

That's why I believe that words serve only a function of communicating basic ideas and that there must be flexibility, discourse, investigation and relatively speaking a scientific type analysis of each and every issue for true knowledge to be obtained.

Once again, if the importance of what is known as reading is that we communicate ideas, then the mechanics as to what is defined as reading should be secondary to how the ideas are being transferred.


On 3/6/2020 9:06 PM, Evan Reese wrote:


Well, I would say that listening to an audio book is not the same as reading it, either in braille or print.
To illustrate, if I tell you a story, would you say that you had read it? No. Now, what if I write down the story and read it to you, either in person or on the phone. Would you say that you had read it? I don’t think so.
Now, suppose I make a recording of me reading the story and send it to you. Would you say that you had read it? The only difference is that, instead of reading it to you live, I’m reading it on tape, as we used to say.
So no, listening to someone read a book is not the same thing as reading it oneself. You may still get the information, but you didn’t read it if you listened to someone else read it.
I don’t think a synthetic voice makes any difference. True, it doesn’t know what it’s saying, but you still have an intermediary between yourself and the actual text, you’re still listening to (in this case), a computer translate the actual text into words. So, even though it doesn’t comprehend what it is translating, it is still reading to you in the strictest sense. You are not reading when using a synthetic voice.
But language changes, definitions change over time. It may happen soon that people will say that they are actually reading when they are listening to a voice, any voice, whether human or synthetic, read to them. Many people already say that, so I think we’re on the way. I don’t care all that much. I’ve done it myself, said that I read a book when I actually listened to someone else read it. I don’t make a big deal out of it. But you asked for thoughts, and that’s what I actually believe, even if I speak off-handedly about reading audio books.
Evan

From: David Goldfield <mailto:david.goldfield@...>
Sent: Friday, March 06, 2020 6:58 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business


I'd like to address this topic of literacy when talking about whether or not a person is able or not able to read Braille. I wrote a blog post about this a while ago as these were questions which I was considering and I'd like to share this post with you if you have an interest in reading it. I'm afraid that it really doesn't answer these questions and, in fact, may raise a few additional ones that some of us might not have considered. Here is the post.




Consuming Books: Reading Vs. Listening


1 <https://davidgoldfield.wordpress.com/2017/05/14/168318/#comments>

This morning I was browsing my Facebook timeline and stumbled on a post from one of my friends who posed a very interesting question. The question has to do with the wording we use to convey how we consume audio books. My friend pointed out that she’s noticing a trend, both with blind and sighted readers, where they will use the verb “listen” instead of “read”, as in “I just finished listening to that book” as opposed to “I just finished reading that book”, as if consuming a book via audio isn’t quite the same as reading it.

First, I’ll provide a bit of background into my own life as an avid reader. I learned how to read Braille when I was around four and how to write it not much later than that. I’ve always found reading Braille to be very easy and I’ve been reading books using Braille for about as long as I can remember. I remember the enjoyment I always felt going to my school library, browsing the many shelves of Braille books and being able to check out one or two books a week, which I always read quickly. Of course, there were many books, known as talking books, which were recorded on cassettes’ as well as on phonograph records. Talking books have been available for blind and visually impaired consumers to borrow since the 1930s, way before audio books became popular with sighted consumers. While I never hesitated to borrow a book on tape from my library, Braille was always my preferred medium and, when given a choice between Braille and audio, Braille was always what I chose.

As I’ve embraced new technologies the way I consume books has also changed. Nearly all of the books which I consume are done so audibly and not in Braille. There are several reasons for this and they don’t apply to all readers who are blind. First, most of the books which I want to read are just not available in Braille. While the National Library Service <http://www.loc.gov/nls> produces many Braille books there are simply more titles available in an audio format. Even then the amount of books produced by NLS, while I greatly appreciate the work that they do, is a drop in the bucket compared to the amount of titles available from other suppliers. Bookshare <http://www.bookshare.org/> , another specialized library for people with print disabilities, offers over half a million books and that number continues to increase. Learning Ally <http://www.learningally.org/> is another specialized library which I’ve used for over 35 years, offers around 80,000 human-narrated titles. Of course, mainstream book suppliers such as the Kindle store offer millions of books, with more constantly being added. These specialized and mainstream suppliers offer a much greater selection of books than what I am able to borrow from my local NLS affiliate.

Some readers will no doubt want to remind me of the fact that we do have Braille display technology, which will work both with my computer as well as with my phone. This is certainly true and a Braille display would certainly allow me to read books from any of these suppliers using the same Braille code that I enjoyed using with books printed on paper. However, there are reasons which, for me, make this an impractical solution.

First, Braille display technology, while readily available for many devices, is often costly. As an example, Freedom Scientific’s most inexpensive Braille display, the Focus 14 Blue, costs $1295.00. At this time spending over a thousand dollars for a Braille display is just not something which I could easily do, considering it’s a device that I don’t truly need. However, even if a Braille display magically dropped onto my desk the fact is that I do a lot of reading either on the train or lying in bed. Reading with a Braille display on a moving train, no matter how portable, is just too awkward. When I’m lying in bed and wanted to read a book it’s just so much easier to do this with a small phone and would prove to be a bit less convenient if I added even a 14-cell display.

Anyway, back to the topic. My friend was pointing out that she has noticed that many people say they’ve listened to a book as opposed to reading it if the book was consumed in an audio medium, such as an audio CD or listening to it with synthetic speech using the Kindle app. However, this also makes me think of how we often use the word “read” when we actually have listened to the book.

This raises some interesting questions. When it comes to books, is it fair to consider it reading regardless of how it’s consumed? There are probably some sighted people who feel that the only way to truly read a book is to do so by processing the printed material visually. Of course, as blind people we know this is certainly not the case. All of us would agree that processing the information with our fingers would just as validly be considered reading as processing the information with our eyes and, in that instance, there is no controversy. However, the wording sometimes changes when we shift from print on a page to either a human narrator or a synthetic voice coming from a pair of speakers or from our portable phones and tablets. If I consumed a book by listening to it with an app such as Voice Dream Reader, am I wrong to say that I’ve read the book? Most blind people would say that I’m not and I would tend to agree with them.

However, let’s say we have an individual who is blind who never learned how to read Braille. There are some valid reasons for why they might not have been taught how to read and write in Braille, such as having neuropathy in their fingers which would prevent them from being able to distinguish the dot patterns. In such a case, this blind individual would only be able to consume books in an audible format. Considering this, would we look at that blind person who didn’t know Braille and conclude, if only to ourselves, that this person was illiterate. We might not say that to their face in the course of normal conversation but do we consider a blind person who doesn’t know Braille to be illiterate? If the answer to that question is yes then can we say that this blind person, not knowing Braille, has “read” a book when it was consumed by listening. If we say no, then why is it acceptable for me to say that I’ve read a book and my hypothetical blind person could not say that, just because I can read Braille and he cannot.

Let’s take this a step further and consider a fully sighted person who, for one reason or another, never learned how to read print. There’s no doubt that we would conclude that this person would be considered illiterate. Saying so is not meant as an insult but, in this case, is indisputable; someone who can’t read is illiterate. My hypothetical blind person might not have the ability to learn Braille and the sighted person could, with proper training, learn how to read print but, until that individual chooses to take classes in how to read, we would all agree that he’s illiterate. Given that fact, would we tend to disagree with the illiterate sighted person if he told us that he “read” a particular book by consuming it in an audible medium? Wouldn’t we think, “No, you didn’t really read that book, you listened to it.” If this is the case, then why is it OK for me, as a blind person who knows Braille, to tell people that I may have read the same book by consuming it in the exact same way but yet fewer people would think of challenging my word choices.

Admittedly, this isn’t the most important topic which should concern us. I don’t think about it all that much and it certainly doesn’t keep me up at night. However, I think these issues are important as it has really forced me to think about what we mean when we speak of what it means to be literate.



As an aside, the person who brought up this topic is one of the proprietors of Speeddots, <http://speeddots.com/> which sells various tactile screen protectors for your Apple iDevice. They also sell various Bluetooth accessories as well as rugged lightning cables with a life-time warranty.

So, how do you feel about this? For you, does listening to an audio book qualify as reading it? I’d love to hear your thoughts in the comments.

David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist
JAWS Certified, 2019

WWW.DavidGoldfield.org <http://WWW.DavidGoldfield.org>
On 3/6/2020 6:21 PM, Ron Canazzi wrote:


Now Brian,

I don't want to personalize this, but you say you're a good
Braille reader now: correct? You say that people who use audio primarily aren't truly literate and you can tell by the way they write e-mails: is that what you're saying? Well let me be your teacher and quote and correct your own mistakes that you have made in your lengthy reply.

<spelling error> aAmen(I guess you are trying to say Amen to that or something similar--note the repetition of the first letter A.)

<grammatical clumsiness> if you don't braille than you are not truly literate. (I guess you mean: if you don't know/use/are competent in, Braille then you are not truly literate.)

<run on sentence> If you doubt this then read emails from blind people who don't know braille there spelling and (There should be a period after the word Braille.)

<spelling error> gramar and punctuation leave alot to be desired. (In this sentence grammar and a lot are misspelled.)

<run on sentence> I have been there myself if I don't read then I to will fall in to trap as well. (There should be a period after the word myself.)

If you truly want to be literate then you just have
<spelling error> toread and not just listen to audio. (there is a run on word toread that should be separated into 'to read.')
Those of us who do prefer braille and would rather read than listen have only audio as the option all to often. For me if I want to stay literate then I have to read braille and as I said in my email to Grumpy Dave I can't
<spelling error> amagine my life with out braille. (I guess you mean 'imagine my life without Braille.)

<wrong use of the word loose> I have had braille most of my life and I would loose independence (I guess you mean lose independence.)

<spelling error> ifI were to not know braille. (You ran the words If and I together.)

Reading braille is active reading but listening to audio or computer speech is just passive reading.

I prefer to <spelling error> activly read but most of the time I can't because it's audio only. (You misspelled actively.)

<spelling errors and a run on sentence> I do rember haveing to cary volumes of braille books acrost campus at the blind school but I never gave it a though it was just what I hav to do it was no problem for me at all. (You misspelled remember, having, across and probably mean the word had when you wrote hav. And I almost forgot, you used the word though instead of thought.) (There should be a period after the word thought.)

The campus at the Michigan school for the blind in Lansing Michigan covered a 4 city block area. I tried college back in 1987-1988 and I could have
<spelling error> donee much better if I had braille. (You misspelled the word done.)

<spelling errors> I had tapes from recording forthe blind but I had issues with the readers with pronouncations. (you ran the words for and the together. You misspelled pronunciation.)

I remember taking test and what I heard during the test sounded nothing like what I heard on the tapes.

If I would have had my books in braille I would have known the correct words and the tests would have made <spelling error> sinse. (You misspelled the word sense.)

<spelling error> If yur going to read on tape then you must be able to speak properly and say your words properly. (You misspelled the word you're--or at least I think that's what you meant by writing the word yur.)

<grammatical oddity> There was the issue of only tape at a time and having to send 2 copies of every book to recording for the blind to be recorded. (I'm not quite sure, but I think you meant 'only one tape at a time.)

<spelling error> Audio is usless if I don't know what you are saying. (You misspelled useless.)

This is why we need braille. Braille readers don't make a big deal of how many volumes a book is it just is.


LONG STORY SHORT: BRIAN, YOU ARE A POOR EXAMPLE OF THE IDEA THAT BRAILLE READERS WRITE COHERENT AND GRAMATICALLY CORRECT E-MAIL MESSAGES.
On 3/6/2020 3:01 PM, brian wrote:


aAmen if you don't braille than you are not truly literate. If you doubt this then read emails from blind people who don't know braille there spelling and gramar and punctuation leave alot to be desired. I have been there myself if I don't read then I to will fall in to trap as well. If you truly want to be literate then you just have toread and not just listen to audio. Those of us who do prefer braille and would rather read than listen have only audio as the option all to often. For me if I want to stay literate then I have to read braille and as I said in my email to Grumpy Dave I can't amagine my life with out braille. I have had braille most of my life and I would loose independence ifI were to not know braille. Reading braille is active reading but listening to audio or computer speech is just passive reading. I prefer to activly read but most of the time I can't because it's audio only. I do rember haveing to cary volumes of braille books acrost campus at the blind school but I never gave it a though it was just what I hav to do it was no problem for me at all. The campus at the Michigan school for the blind in Lansing Michigan covered a 4 city block area. I tried college back in 1987-1988 and I could have donee much better if I had braille. I had tapes from recording forthe blind but I had issues with the readers with pronouncations. I remember taking test and what I heard during the test sounded nothing like what I heard on the tapes. If I would have had my books in braille I would have known the correct words and the tests would have made sinse. If yur going to read on tape then you must be able to speak properly and say your words properly. There was the issue of only tape at a time and having to send 2 copies of every book to recording for the blind to be recorded. Audio is usless if I don't know what you are saying. This is why we need braille. Braille readers don't make a big deal of how many volumes a book is it just is.

Brian Sackrider

On 3/6/2020 7:26 AM, chris judge wrote:


This is true. There is a huge difference between not learning braille if you've lost your site later in life. The unfortunate fact is that even people who are blind since birth are not learning braille at the rate they were when I was a kid 50 years ago. If you are blind since birth and you don't learn braille you miss out on basic literacy. How do you learn proper spelling, grammar, punctuation and such if you don't learn braile. If you have had site you already understand these things so knowing braille isn't as paramount.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io> mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io On Behalf Of Victor
Sent: March 6, 2020 12:42 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io <mailto:main@techtalk.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

Hello everyone:

I would like to point out that many blind people lose their eyesight later in life and they find it too difficult to learn braille. It is much easier for them to access information by listening to audio. It’s hard enough for them to get over losing their eyesight and live without seeing their loved ones or other things ever again. The last thing they want is to learn a new skill that they may find just too difficult.

After obtaining my iPhone, I attended a users group where are the people taught each other to use iOS devices. While at the group one day, one of the group leaders brought a focus 40 refreshable braille display for everyone to examine. I was the only blind person in the room interested in touching the device because I knew braille and I owned a previous generation of that device. It was not discussed, but I knew that they were not interested because most of them had lost their eyesight later in life. I suspect that they found it much easier to listen to audio than reading braille. Plus, most of them had learned how to access information using their iPhones. I’m sure they found it much easier to whip out their iPhones and listen to their books, podcasts, scan documents and do everything else we can do with our iPhones. I realize that not everyone owns a smart phone because they have not found a way to obtain one. I also realize that not everyone is into these types of gadgets. However, many blind people have discovered how great these gadgets are and how useful they can be in helping them become more independent. For many of us, that is the route we have chosen.

In any case, don’t be too surprised if you meet a blind person who is not interested in learning braille. Don’t be too hard on those people. Maybe they just prefer to do what is easier.

I am so glad that refreshable braille displays exist now. I am also glad that low cost refreshable braille displays are being developed. I definitely don’t miss the days of carrying bulky braille books to and from my classes. I do not miss the days of trying to look up words in the dictionary and dealing with a whole bookshelf of braille books. No thank you! I do not miss my five volume braille New Testament.

If I did not already on a refreshable braille display, I would definitely look into obtaining the orbit braille reader or the braille me.


Anyhow, these are just my rambling opinions.

Victor Sent from my iPhone



On Mar 5, 2020, at 7:40 PM, brian mailto:bsackrider55@... wrote:

 Thanks Grumpy Dave for your explination. I would be willing to pay a few dollars to get braille. I am not saying that I should get for free but not to have the option is my complaint. My local liberary use to provide braille for 10 cents per page. I was also told that if I provided the paper they would braille what I wanted. They required 67 weight paper which I can get at Staples. All to often we are forced to except only audio as the only format that is available. Braille will always be my prefered format because I prefer to read for myself instead of just listen. You say that you hate braille but you can use it well I feel the same about audio. Why do we have to be locked in to just one format? How many people would rather read than listen? Blind or sighted. People who prefer to read than should be commended instead of being kind of bashed for it. If not many blind people request braille than it should be no trouble to provide it. Braille is not that dificult to produce once you have the equipment. my liberary had no trouble all they needed was files in microsoft word and the paper and they were good to go. I use to get my weekly meterials for my church all in grade 2 braille. It was really great to finally be an active participant in the service instead just a pasive listener. To be able to read along with everyone else the verses and hyms and classes lessons is a great feeling you just can't discribe the independence that it givesyou. It's kind of like having access to dvs you can finally know what is going on when there is all of that dead air. I was able to read infront of the church and be active in bible study and even lead the groop all using braille. I do use braille menus when ever possible even if I don't really need it just to let them see that somone is acually using it. Braille has given me a very full life and I don't know whear my life would be with out braille. I feel that every blind person who is able to read braille should learn it. I do understand that there are blind people who have medical conditions that prevents them from being able to read braille. For them they have no choice but to use audio but I do have the choice I just don't like being limited to just audio only and not braille. You hate braille and I hate audio. a good example of when I wish that I had braille instead of a file was when I requested my local newspaper to be accessable. my lions club purchassed a sara reading machine for me there was no braille manual but there was a print manual. I had to go to the help file on the machine and try to find what I wanted. When I called the paper office they asked what files my machine could read. If I had a braille manual I could have just looked it up while on the phone and gave them the answer. I had to call back after I went to the help file and found it. This is very time concuming I can look up somthing much faster in braille than any other format. I am not saying that I can do it as quick as a sighted person can with print but for me it's the fastest way for me to get the job done. When I was a kid I attended the Michigan school the blind in Lansing and we had to learn braille and all of our books were in braille. There was no I don't want to learn it you had to. I will say that I can certainly listen much faster than I can read but when it comes to looking up somthing braille is faster hands down. I have been blind since birth and thats all I ever knew was braille. It's like the sighted grew up with print. I wanted to learn the opticon at the rehab center but they would not let me because they said that I was not fast enough. I felt that I was learning and making progress and I should had the right to continue but they said no. If somone really wants to learn a new skil then they should beallowed to do so. If I am determind to learn somthing that then I will even though it might take more time then the teacher would like. I guess that modavation means nothing. If somone reallly wants to learn braille so what ifit takes several month to do so they should not be told no you can't continue. If companies had the equipment to produce braille they could charge me for the cost of the paper to get braille manuals or catalogs.



On 3/5/2020 9:26 PM, Dave wrote:
Hello Brian,


I have nothing against Braille other than the hassle it is to create
it, such as a Manual in Braille.


I've been blind for a long time now, and there were many times when I
would have Kissed the Feet of anyone who gave me a manual in Audio
format. many times have I had to just Wing it, learning by Guess and
by Golly. Once Computers became a Tool for the Blind, Guessing was
not always the best thing to do, as guessing wrong could ruin your
day in a Big way. Still can.


but, Brian, I have no Beef with Braille. To produce it is just not an
easy task. And I would guess that most manufacturers of items for
the blind, may not want to hire another Staff member to do nothing
but print out Manuals in Braille.


Yes, it all sounds good, until the costs of doing such a thing is
considered.


These days, I do expect a Manual at least in a PDF format, if not an
Audio file. And if I own my own Braille Printer, I can then print
out the PDF file.


Although, I can't afford one of those printers, so I do without.


However, I could run the Audio file through an Audio to Text
converter, and then print that file out in Braille.


When I get nothing but an On Line Manual, where I need to go On Line
to read the thing. I am Thankful for at least that much, but I
always look to see if I can just download the manual so I don't need
to be going On Line so much.


Call it my personal Taste.


I would think most who are Blind have learned over and over again to
look for Work Arounds for doing many things in Life.


You like Braille, and while I do use it, I Hate it. So a Braille
Manual would be a waste of resources to send me one.


You Love it, and can use it well. So, when the Company doesn't send
a manual in Braille, but has sent you one in PDF, or even Audio, if
you want a manual in Braille, the Work around is to convert that Audio or
PDF file into Braille. And if you are like me, and can't afford a
Braille Printer, there are Services that will take your Manual file
and make you a manual in Braille.


it may cost you a few dollars, which again is all part of the Life of
someone who is Blind. In the past, I have hired Readers to read
Manuals on Tape. Paid them $10 for every hour of Recorded material.


I've paid people to read my Mail. This was before smart Phones had
built in Cameras and OCR programs. I paid them $10 an hour too. this
was back in the 1980's and 90's.


I haven't had to hire anyone for about 20 years now


And Dare I bring up the Quality of Manuals? So often, regardless of
what Format it comes in, the information in the thing is totally Nuts!
It doesn't make Sense, and you can't tell if it is a Translation of
something in Chinese to English, or from Chinese to Spanish and then
Russian, and then to English etc.


And some manuals that come in English are so poorly written, lack
helpful information and seem to be missing a great deal of actual
instructional information and are next to useless in any format.


Grumpy Dave






















--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


one note

Kerryn Gunness
 

guys
 
is one note or ms one note accessible?
if so how does it work
 


locked Re: warning if you doing business

Carolyn Arnold
 

I went on the Internet and (in quotes) "watched" a video on how to use a curling iron. Naturally, if I could see, I would have gotten more out of it, but that is true about everything other than sleeping. The video was helpful and made sense to me. Plus, I learned a couple of invaluable tips about using a curling iron safely.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io [mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io] On Behalf Of brian
Sent: Friday, March 6, 2020 3:42 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

Vidio instructions will do us no good unless they have dvs blind people can't see vidios. That is not a workable sulution at all.

Brian Sackrider

On 3/6/2020 11:06 AM, Carolyn Arnold wrote:
Lan has video instructions on all of his products.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io
[mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io] On Behalf Of Ann Parsons
Sent: Friday, March 6, 2020 8:15 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

Morning all,

Several points have been made in this discussion, but I want to
concentrate on Dave's assertion, and his amusement.

Dave, let me explain something to you. Stop being grumpy and listen.
There are people in this world who actually need braille, not prefer
it, or desire it, but actually need it. These are our friends who are
DeafBlind. They cannot use any audio materials spoken by either human
or synthetic voices.
They need braille.

Second, RE the matter of Free Matter for the Blind. I would not want
equipment of any kind shipped Free Matter because it takes so long to
ship and also because it is treated like third class mail, the
potential for damage is great! I don't think you can ship computers
Free Matter. It has to be something specifically designed for the
blind, not something that is available to all.

Now as to instructions sent with equipment for the blind, many
companies which sell material specifically designed for the blind do,
not, ship, accessible instructions with their products!! They don't
ship large print. They don't ship braille. They don't ship audio,
nothing accessible, only a printed pamphlet! This is unconscionable!
A person who is blind should receive instructions in some kind of
accessible format, period! It could be an audio CD, or a braille hard
copy or a braille file, but something!
Instead, they ship their products with printed instructions, expecting
the blind person to be able to access them somehow. Roger Behm is the
*only* businessman I know of who ships accessible instructions and
manuals without being asked. I had to get sighted help to label a
calculator for a student because the company which sent the thing
didn't bother including accessible instructions.

Ann P.


Original message:
Gosh, a couple of you had me Laughing Out Loud!
Complaining about having to pay Postage, and that Braille
instructions
don[t come in the package?
Sheesh! Be Dam Thankful you get an Audio file! but,
Braille?


Now that was Funny! I Needed a Good Laugh today.
Grumpy Dave
--
Ann K. Parsons
Portal Tutoring
EMAIL: akp@...
Author of The Demmies: http://www.dldbooks.com/annparsons/
Portal Tutoring web site: http://www.portaltutoring.info
Skype: Putertutor

"All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost."







How much would you spend on a used working Focus 14 Blue Braille display?

Sharon Hooley
 

Hi,

I'm considering selling my Focus 14 Blue, which I bought several years ago. I still have the user manual and the Cd of the Jaws driver, but think I may have broken one of the USB cables that came with it, the long one. I never learned to use all the functions of the buttons, but I've been able to use it. The problem with it is that it slow with the latest IOS on my iPhone, and is sometimes unpredictable when I'm reading or writing. How much should I charge for it? That would be less than $1000, I know. Any input would be much appreciated.

Thanks,


Is it hard to communicate, even with hearing aids? Visit
www.CochlearAmericas.com


Re: Sending Something from Amazon to Someone Other Than Oneself

Steve Matzura
 

Yeah, others have told me the same thing.OK, I'll just have to do it that way.Thanks for confirming.


On 3/6/2020 3:57 PM, Mike B wrote:

I've done this many times, but I've always had to add the address to my address list, then go back in and delete it after the purchase was completed.

Take care.  Mike.  Sent from my iBarstool.  Go dodgers!
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, March 06, 2020 11:54 AM
Subject: [TechTalk] Sending Something from Amazon to Someone Other Than Oneself

How is this done? All I want to do is send something to someone else,
and I'm not interested in adding their address to my list of addresses
that only has one in it anyway.


Re: spell checker

Peter Spitz
 

Brian:

Maybe you could type more slowly and then proofread your messages
before you send them out?

On 3/7/20, brian <bsackrider55@...> wrote:
People on this list and on other lists have told me to use
a spell checker and thats all they say. They did not give me any
options or tell me whear to get oneor how to use one. I don't have
microsoft office. What is a good spell checker that works with nvda?
Just telling me what I should do but not providing with out anyhelp
information does me no good and is not helping me at all. I have not
taken any computer classes what I know I have learned on my own. It
seems that people are all to willing to tell me what I should do but
don't give any helpful sugestions. I know that I do need help and I do
want to make mymessages more readable. It's not that I don't care I
just don't know what to do about the problem. It is true that if I
write to fast than I will make lots of mistakes. The same is true if I
write in braille. I do get very slopy if I write to fast.

Brian Sackrider

On 3/7/2020 12:13 PM, Gene wrote:
You are making unsupported statements. How do you know Brian has
learning differences? How do you know he was coasted through school?
I'll offer an alternative explanation. I'm not saying either are
correct nor am I saying which one may or may not account for observed
phenomena better. But how do you know that some or many of these
errors are not the result of someone feeling strongly about something
and rushing to get the message written as quickly as possible? If
Brian is typing far above the speed at which he types more accurately,
that may result in some of what is observed. And, since I've seen
messages from Brian that don't have all these mistakes, I'll consider
my theory to be a possibly better explanation, since I don't know
Brian's background and I think it is absurd to infer some sort of
learning differences based on a few e-mails.
But none of this, learning differences, spelling difficulties, a rush
to type as quickly as you can to get your message out as fast as
possible, none of these possibilities precludes the use of a spell
checker.
To this point, I have been writing as a list member. I am now writing
as the list owner.
This discussion has been very interesting and we know more about each
other than we did, thus helping build community on the list. But if
the discussion becomes mostly one of how messages are written, I'll
close it. I realize that you and a few others may want to respond to
what I and others have said but this part of the discussion shouldn't
continue for more than a few more messages.
Now, I'm writing as a list member again.
Brian, I would think it may be uncomfortable seeing your writing
critiqued. But keep these things in mind and you may find the
experience useful:
My view is that if I expect someone to spend the time reading my
messages and thinking about them, I have a certain responsibility to
make them reasonably readable. In your case, many people probably
have to stop to review phrases where words are written together
without spaces. Because I've seen messages from you that are much
better written, it appears to me that if you get emotional about a
subject, you rush to write what you want as quickly as you can. the
result is errors that make your messages difficult to read, such as
words written together with no spaces.
As to spelling, in general I would just let that go. But when you
call a whole class of people illiterate, then don't use a spellchecker
and have misspelled wordafter misspelled word, then, like it or not,
you become part of the discussion. Like it or not, literacy is partly
sending a message without perhaps thirty or forty or more misspelled
words. And nothing precludes you from using a spellchecker. As I
said, in general I wouldn't comment on spelling, but it is inevitable
that at least a few people will when you accuse people of being
illiterate and don't use a spell checker, resulting in a great many
misspellings. It's as though I attended a cooking contest, made a
speech before the event in which I said that with frozen dinners, no
one knows how to cook anymore, then I burned the soup and my main dish.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Ann Parsons <mailto:akp@...>
*Sent:* Saturday, March 07, 2020 6:27 AM
*To:* main@techtalk.groups.io <mailto:main@techtalk.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

Hi all,

I could write a long rant about how I am treated when I correct
people's spelling publicly. I have been called harsh and arrogant and
more. I won't do that because it would be counter-productive. I will
say, however, that taking advantage of someone who has made a public
mistake is, I feel, cruel. it demeans those who perpetuate such crimes.

If you wish to correct Brian's writing, you might do so privately,
thereby giving him the dignity he deserves. It isn't his fault that he
was coasted through school. It isn't his fault that he may not have a
braille display or possess hard copy braille so that he could improve
his writing.

If you want to help, take it off-list! Truly be of service and not
part of the problem.

Ann P.


Original message:
Now Brian,
I don't want to personalize this, but you say you're a good
Braille reader now: correct? You say that people who use audio
primarily aren't truly literate and you can tell by the way they write
e-mails: is that what you're saying? Well let me be your teacher and
quote and correct your own mistakes that you have made in your lengthy
reply.
<spelling error> aAmen(I guess you are trying to say Amen to that or
something similar--note the repetition of the first letter A.)
<grammatical clumsiness> if you don't braille than you are not truly
literate. (I guess you mean: if you don't know/use/are competent in,
Braille then you are not truly literate.)
<run on sentence> If you doubt this then read emails from blind people
who don't know braille there spelling and (There should be a period
after the word Braille.)
<spelling error> gramar and punctuation leave alot to be desired. (In
this sentence grammar and a lot are misspelled.)
<run on sentence> I have been there myself if I don't read then I to
will fall in to trap as well. (There should be a period after the word
myself.)
If you truly want to be literate then you just have
<spelling error> toread and not just listen to audio. (there is a run
on word toread that should be separated into 'to read.')
Those of us who do prefer braille and would rather read than listen
have only audio as the option all to often. For me if I want to stay
literate then I have to read braille and as I said in my email to
Grumpy
Dave I can't
<spelling error> amagine my life with out braille. (I guess you mean
'imagine my life without Braille.)
<wrong use of the word loose> I have had braille most of my life and I
would loose independence (I guess you mean lose independence.)
<spelling error> ifI were to not know braille. (You ran the words If
and I together.)
Reading braille is active reading but listening to audio or computer
speech is just passive reading.
I prefer to <spelling error> activly read but most of the time I can't
because it's audio only. (You misspelled actively.)
<spelling errors and a run on sentence> I do rember haveing to cary
volumes of braille books acrost campus at the blind school but I never
gave it a though it was just what I hav to do it was no problem for me
at all. (You misspelled remember, having, across and probably mean
the
word had when you wrote hav. And I almost forgot, you used the word
though instead of thought.) (There should be a period after the word
thought.)
The campus at the Michigan school for the blind in Lansing Michigan
covered a 4 city block area. I tried college back in 1987-1988 and I
could have
<spelling error> donee much better if I had braille. (You misspelled
the word done.)
<spelling errors> I had tapes from recording forthe blind but I had
issues with the readers with pronouncations. (you ran the words for
and the together. You misspelled pronunciation.)
I remember taking test and what I heard during the test sounded nothing
like what I heard on the tapes.
If I would have had my books in braille I would have known the correct
words and the tests would have made <spelling error> sinse. (You
misspelled the word sense.)
<spelling error> If yur going to read on tape then you must be able to
speak properly and say your words properly. (You misspelled the word
you're--or at least I think that's what you meant by writing the
word yur.)

<grammatical oddity> There was the issue of only tape at a time and
having to send 2 copies of every book to recording for the blind to be
recorded. (I'm not quite sure, but I think you meant 'only one tape at
a time.)
<spelling error> Audio is usless if I don't know what you are saying.
(You misspelled useless.)
This is why we need braille. Braille readers don't make a big deal of
how many volumes a book is it just is.

LONG STORY SHORT: BRIAN, YOU ARE A POOR EXAMPLE OF THE IDEA THAT
BRAILLE
READERS WRITE COHERENT AND GRAMATICALLY CORRECT E-MAIL MESSAGES.
On 3/6/2020 3:01 PM, brian wrote:
aAmen if you don't braille than you are not truly literate. If you
doubt this then read emails from blind people who don't know braille
there spelling and gramar and punctuation leave alot to be desired. I
have been there myself if I don't read then I to will fall in to trap
as well. If you truly want to be literate then you just have toread
and not just listen to audio. Those of us who do prefer braille and
would rather read than listen have only audio as the option all to
often. For me if I want to stay literate then I have to read braille
and as I said in my email to Grumpy Dave I can't amagine my life with
out braille. I have had braille most of my life and I would loose
independence ifI were to not know braille. Reading braille is active
reading but listening to audio or computer speech is just passive
reading. I prefer to activly read but most of the time I can't
because it's audio only. I do rember haveing to cary volumes of
braille books acrost campus at the blind school but I never gave it a
though it was just what I hav to do it was no problem for me at all.
The campus at the Michigan school for the blind in Lansing Michigan
covered a 4 city block area. I tried college back in 1987-1988 and I
could have donee much better if I had braille. I had tapes from
recording forthe blind but I had issues with the readers with
pronouncations. I remember taking test and what I heard during the
test sounded nothing like what I heard on the tapes. If I would have
had my books in braille I would have known the correct words and the
tests would have made sinse. If yur going to read on tape then you
must be able to speak properly and say your words properly. There was
the issue of only tape at a time and having to send 2 copies of every
book to recording for the blind to be recorded. Audio is usless if I
don't know what you are saying. This is why we need braille. Braille
readers don't make a big deal of how many volumes a book is it just
is.
Brian Sackrider
On 3/6/2020 7:26 AM, chris judge wrote:
This is true. There is a huge difference between not learning braille
if you've lost your site later in life. The unfortunate fact is that
even people who are blind since birth are not learning braille at the
rate they were when I was a kid 50 years ago. If you are blind since
birth and you don't learn braille you miss out on basic literacy. How
do you learn proper spelling, grammar, punctuation and such if you
don't learn braile. If you have had site you already understand these
things so knowing braille isn't as paramount.
-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io>
<main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io>> On Behalf Of
Victor
Sent: March 6, 2020 12:42 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io <mailto:main@techtalk.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business
Hello everyone:
I would like to point out that many blind people lose their eyesight
later in life and they find it too difficult to learn braille. It is
much easier for them to access information by listening to audio.
It’s hard enough for them to get over losing their eyesight and live
without seeing their loved ones or other things ever again. The last
thing they want is to learn a new skill that they may find just too
difficult.
After obtaining my iPhone, I attended a users group where are the
people taught each other to use iOS devices. While at the group one
day, one of the group leaders brought a focus 40 refreshable braille
display for everyone to examine. I was the only blind person in the
room interested in touching the device because I knew braille and I
owned a previous generation of that device. It was not discussed, but
I knew that they were not interested because most of them had lost
their eyesight later in life. I suspect that they found it much
easier to listen to audio than reading braille. Plus, most of them
had learned how to access information using their iPhones. I’m sure
they found it much easier to whip out their iPhones and listen to
their books, podcasts, scan documents and do everything else we can
do with our iPhones. I realize that not everyone owns a smart phone
because they have not found a way to obtain one. I also realize that
not everyone is into these types of gadgets. However, many blind
people have discovered how great these gadgets are and how useful
they can be in helping them become more independent. For many of us,
that is the route we have chosen.
In any case, don’t be too surprised if you meet a blind person who is
not interested in learning braille. Don’t be too hard on those
people. Maybe they just prefer to do what is easier.
I am so glad that refreshable braille displays exist now. I am also
glad that low cost refreshable braille displays are being developed.
I definitely don’t miss the days of carrying bulky braille books to
and from my classes. I do not miss the days of trying to look up
words in the dictionary and dealing with a whole bookshelf of braille
books. No thank you! I do not miss my five volume braille New
Testament.

If I did not already on a refreshable braille display, I would
definitely look into obtaining the orbit braille reader or the
braille me.

Anyhow, these are just my rambling opinions.
Victor Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 5, 2020, at 7:40 PM, brian <bsackrider55@...
<mailto:bsackrider55@...>> wrote:

 Thanks Grumpy Dave for your explination. I would be willing to
pay a few dollars to get braille. I am not saying that I should get
for free but not to have the option is my complaint. My local
liberary use to provide braille for 10 cents per page. I was also
told that if I provided the paper they would braille what I wanted.
They required 67 weight paper which I can get at Staples. All to
often we are forced to except only audio as the only format that is
available. Braille will always be my prefered format because I
prefer to read for myself instead of just listen. You say that you
hate braille but you can use it well I feel the same about audio.
Why do we have to be locked in to just one format? How many people
would rather read than listen? Blind or sighted. People who prefer
to read than should be commended instead of being kind of bashed for
it. If not many blind people request braille than it should be no
trouble to provide it. Braille is not that dificult to produce once
you have the equipment. my liberary had no trouble all they needed
was files in microsoft word and the paper and they were good to go.
I use to get my weekly meterials for my church all in grade 2
braille. It was really great to finally be an active participant in
the service instead just a pasive listener. To be able to read
along with everyone else the verses and hyms and classes lessons is
a great feeling you just can't discribe the independence that it
givesyou. It's kind of like having access to dvs you can finally
know what is going on when there is all of that dead air. I was
able to read infront of the church and be active in bible study and
even lead the groop all using braille. I do use braille menus when
ever possible even if I don't really need it just to let them see
that somone is acually using it. Braille has given me a very full
life and I don't know whear my life would be with out braille. I
feel that every blind person who is able to read braille should
learn it. I do understand that there are blind people who have
medical conditions that prevents them from being able to read
braille. For them they have no choice but to use audio but I do
have the choice I just don't like being limited to just audio only
and not braille. You hate braille and I hate audio. a good example
of when I wish that I had braille instead of a file was when I
requested my local newspaper to be accessable. my lions club
purchassed a sara reading machine for me there was no braille manual
but there was a print manual. I had to go to the help file on the
machine and try to find what I wanted. When I called the paper
office they asked what files my machine could read. If I had a
braille manual I could have just looked it up while on the phone and
gave them the answer. I had to call back after I went to the help
file and found it. This is very time concuming I can look up
somthing much faster in braille than any other format. I am not
saying that I can do it as quick as a sighted person can with print
but for me it's the fastest way for me to get the job done. When I
was a kid I attended the Michigan school the blind in Lansing and we
had to learn braille and all of our books were in braille. There
was no I don't want to learn it you had to. I will say that I can
certainly listen much faster than I can read but when it comes to
looking up somthing braille is faster hands down. I have been blind
since birth and thats all I ever knew was braille. It's like the
sighted grew up with print. I wanted to learn the opticon at the
rehab center but they would not let me because they said that I was
not fast enough. I felt that I was learning and making progress and
I should had the right to continue but they said no. If somone
really wants to learn a new skil then they should beallowed to do
so. If I am determind to learn somthing that then I will even
though it might take more time then the teacher would like. I guess
that modavation means nothing. If somone reallly wants to learn
braille so what ifit takes several month to do so they should not be
told no you can't continue. If companies had the equipment to
produce braille they could charge me for the cost of the paper to
get braille manuals or catalogs.
On 3/5/2020 9:26 PM, Dave wrote:
Hello Brian,

I have nothing against Braille other than the hassle it is to
create
it, such as a Manual in Braille.

I've been blind for a long time now, and there were many times
when I
would have Kissed the Feet of anyone who gave me a manual in Audio
format. many times have I had to just Wing it, learning by
Guess and
by Golly. Once Computers became a Tool for the Blind, Guessing was
not always the best thing to do, as guessing wrong could ruin your
day in a Big way. Still can.

but, Brian, I have no Beef with Braille. To produce it is just
not an
easy task. And I would guess that most manufacturers of items for
the blind, may not want to hire another Staff member to do nothing
but print out Manuals in Braille.

Yes, it all sounds good, until the costs of doing such a thing is
considered.

These days, I do expect a Manual at least in a PDF format, if not
an
Audio file. And if I own my own Braille Printer, I can then print
out the PDF file.

Although, I can't afford one of those printers, so I do without.

However, I could run the Audio file through an Audio to Text
converter, and then print that file out in Braille.

When I get nothing but an On Line Manual, where I need to go On
Line
to read the thing. I am Thankful for at least that much, but I
always look to see if I can just download the manual so I don't
need
to be going On Line so much.

Call it my personal Taste.

I would think most who are Blind have learned over and over again
to
look for Work Arounds for doing many things in Life.

You like Braille, and while I do use it, I Hate it. So a Braille
Manual would be a waste of resources to send me one.

You Love it, and can use it well. So, when the Company doesn't
send
a manual in Braille, but has sent you one in PDF, or even Audio, if
you want a manual in Braille, the Work around is to convert that
Audio or
PDF file into Braille. And if you are like me, and can't afford a
Braille Printer, there are Services that will take your Manual file
and make you a manual in Braille.

it may cost you a few dollars, which again is all part of the
Life of
someone who is Blind. In the past, I have hired Readers to read
Manuals on Tape. Paid them $10 for every hour of Recorded
material.

I've paid people to read my Mail. This was before smart Phones had
built in Cameras and OCR programs. I paid them $10 an hour
too. this
was back in the 1980's and 90's.

I haven't had to hire anyone for about 20 years now

And Dare I bring up the Quality of Manuals? So often, regardless of
what Format it comes in, the information in the thing is totally
Nuts!
It doesn't make Sense, and you can't tell if it is a Translation of
something in Chinese to English, or from Chinese to Spanish and
then
Russian, and then to English etc.

And some manuals that come in English are so poorly written, lack
helpful information and seem to be missing a great deal of actual
instructional information and are next to useless in any format.

Grumpy Dave


















--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

--
Ann K. Parsons
Portal Tutoring
EMAIL: akp@... <mailto:akp@...>
Author of The Demmies: http://www.dldbooks.com/annparsons/
Portal Tutoring web site: http://www.portaltutoring.info
Skype: Putertutor

"All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost."






spell checker

brian
 

            People on this list and on other lists have told me to use a spell checker and thats all they say.  They did not give me any options or tell me whear to get oneor how to use one.  I don't have microsoft office.  What is a good spell checker that works with nvda?  Just telling me what I should do but not providing with out anyhelp information does me no good and is not helping me at all.  I have not taken any computer classes what I know I have learned on my own.  It seems that people are all to willing to tell me what I should do but don't give any helpful sugestions.  I know that I do need help and I do want to make mymessages more readable.  It's not that I don't care I just don't know what to do about the problem.  It is true that if I write to fast than I will make lots of mistakes.  The same is true if I write in braille.  I do get very slopy if I write to fast.

Brian Sackrider 

On 3/7/2020 12:13 PM, Gene wrote:
You are making unsupported statements.  How do you know Brian has learning differences?  How do you know he was coasted through school?  I'll offer an alternative explanation.  I'm not saying either are correct nor am I saying which one may or may not account for observed phenomena better.  But how do you know that some or many of these errors are not the result of someone feeling strongly about something and rushing to get the message written as quickly as possible?  If Brian is typing far above the speed at which he types more accurately, that may result in some of what is observed.  And, since I've seen messages from Brian that don't have all these mistakes, I'll consider my theory to be a possibly better explanation, since I don't know Brian's background and I think it is absurd to infer some sort of learning differences based on a few e-mails. 
 
But none of this, learning differences, spelling difficulties, a rush to type as quickly as you can to get your message out as fast as possible, none of these possibilities precludes the use of a spell checker. 
 
To this point, I have been writing as a list member.  I am now writing as the list owner.
 
This discussion has been very interesting and we know more about each other than we did, thus helping build community on the list.  But if the discussion becomes mostly one of how messages are written, I'll close it.  I realize that you and a few others may want to respond to what I and others have said but this part of the discussion shouldn't continue for more than a few more messages. 
 
Now, I'm writing as a list member again.
 
Brian, I would think it may be uncomfortable seeing your writing critiqued.  But keep these things in mind and you may find the experience useful:
My view is that if I expect someone to spend the time reading my messages and thinking about them, I have a certain responsibility to make them reasonably readable.  In your case, many people probably have to stop to review phrases where words are written together without spaces.  Because I've seen messages from you that are much better written, it appears to me that if you get emotional about a subject, you rush to write what you want as quickly as you can.  the result is errors that make your messages difficult to read, such as words written together with no spaces. 
 
As to spelling, in general I would just let that go.  But when you call a whole class of people illiterate, then don't use a spellchecker and have misspelled wordafter misspelled word, then, like it or not, you become part of the discussion.  Like it or not, literacy is partly sending a message without perhaps thirty or forty or more misspelled words.  And nothing precludes you from using a spellchecker.  As I said, in general I wouldn't comment on spelling, but it is inevitable that at least a few people will when you accuse people of being illiterate and don't use a spell checker, resulting in a great many misspellings.  It's as though I attended a cooking contest, made a speech before the event in which I said that with frozen dinners, no one knows how to cook anymore, then I burned the soup and my main dish. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2020 6:27 AM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

Hi all,

I could write a long rant about how I am treated when I correct
people's spelling publicly.  I have been called harsh and arrogant and
more.  I won't do that because it would be counter-productive.  I will
say, however, that taking advantage of someone who has made a public
mistake is, I feel, cruel.  it demeans those who perpetuate such crimes.

If you wish to correct Brian's writing, you might do so privately,
thereby giving him the dignity he deserves.  It isn't his fault that he
was coasted through school.  It isn't his fault that he may not have a
braille display or possess hard copy braille so that he could improve
his writing.

If you want to help, take it off-list!  Truly be of service and not
part of the problem.

Ann P.


Original message:
> Now Brian,

> I don't want to personalize this, but you say you're a good
> Braille reader now: correct?  You say that people who use audio
> primarily aren't truly literate and you can tell by the way they write
> e-mails: is that what you're saying?  Well let me be your teacher and
> quote and correct your own mistakes that you have made in your lengthy
> reply.

> <spelling error>    aAmen(I guess you are trying to say Amen to that or
> something similar--note the repetition of the first letter A.)

> <grammatical clumsiness> if you don't braille than you are not truly
> literate. (I guess you mean: if you don't know/use/are competent in,
> Braille then you are not truly literate.)

> <run on sentence> If you doubt this then read emails from blind people
> who don't know braille there spelling and (There should be a period
> after the word Braille.)

> <spelling error> gramar and punctuation leave alot to be desired.  (In
> this sentence grammar and a lot are misspelled.)

> <run on sentence> I have been there myself if I don't read then I to
> will fall in to trap as well.  (There should be a period after the word
> myself.)

> If you truly want to be literate then you just have
> <spelling error> toread and not just listen to audio.  (there is a run
> on word toread that should be separated into 'to read.')
> Those of us who  do prefer braille and would rather read than listen
> have only audio as the option all to often. For me if I want to stay
> literate then I have to read braille and as I said in my email to Grumpy
> Dave I can't
> <spelling error> amagine my life with out braille.  (I guess you mean
> 'imagine my life without Braille.)

> <wrong use of the word loose> I have had braille most of my life and I
> would loose independence (I guess you mean lose independence.)

> <spelling error> ifI were to not know braille.   (You ran the words If
> and I together.)

> Reading braille is active reading but listening to audio or computer
> speech is just passive reading.

> I prefer to <spelling error> activly read but most of the time I can't
> because it's audio only.  (You misspelled actively.)

> <spelling errors and a run on sentence> I do rember haveing to cary
> volumes of braille books acrost campus at the blind school but I never
> gave it a though it was just what I hav to do it was no problem for me
> at all.   (You misspelled remember, having, across and probably mean the
> word had when you wrote hav. And I almost forgot, you used the word
> though instead of thought.)  (There should be a period after the word
> thought.)

> The campus at the Michigan school for the blind in Lansing Michigan
> covered a 4 city block area.  I tried college back in 1987-1988 and I
> could have
> <spelling error> donee much better if I had braille.  (You misspelled
> the word done.)

> <spelling errors> I had tapes from recording forthe blind but I had
> issues with the readers with pronouncations.   (you ran the words for
> and the together.  You misspelled pronunciation.)

> I remember taking test and what I heard during the test sounded nothing
> like what I heard on the tapes.

> If I would have had my books in braille I would have known the correct
> words and the tests would have made <spelling error> sinse.  (You
> misspelled the word sense.)

> <spelling error> If yur going to read on tape then you must be able to
> speak properly and say your words properly.   (You misspelled the word
> you're--or at least I think that's what you meant by writing the word yur.)

> <grammatical oddity> There was the issue of only tape at a time and
> having to send 2 copies of every book to recording for the blind to be
> recorded.  (I'm not quite sure, but I think you meant 'only one tape at
> a time.)

> <spelling error> Audio is usless if I don't know what you are saying.
> (You misspelled useless.)

> This is why we need braille.  Braille readers don't make a big deal of
> how many volumes a book is it just is.


> LONG STORY SHORT: BRIAN, YOU ARE A POOR EXAMPLE OF THE IDEA THAT BRAILLE
> READERS WRITE COHERENT AND GRAMATICALLY CORRECT E-MAIL MESSAGES.
> On 3/6/2020 3:01 PM, brian wrote:
>> aAmen if you don't braille than you are not truly literate. If you
>> doubt this then read emails from blind people who don't know braille
>> there spelling and gramar and punctuation leave alot to be desired.  I
>> have been there myself if I don't read then I to will fall in to trap
>> as well.  If you truly want to be literate then you just have toread
>> and not just listen to audio.  Those of us who  do prefer braille and
>> would rather read than listen have only audio as the option all to
>> often. For me if I want to stay literate then I have to read braille
>> and as I said in my email to Grumpy Dave I can't amagine my life with
>> out braille.  I have had braille most of my life and I would loose
>> independence ifI were to not know braille.  Reading braille is active
>> reading but listening to audio or computer speech is just passive
>> reading.  I prefer to activly read but most of the time I can't
>> because it's audio only.  I do rember haveing to cary volumes of
>> braille books acrost campus at the blind school but I never gave it a
>> though it was just what I hav to do it was no problem for me at all.
>> The campus at the Michigan school for the blind in Lansing Michigan
>> covered a 4 city block area.  I tried college back in 1987-1988 and I
>> could have donee much better if I had braille.  I had tapes from
>> recording forthe blind but I had issues with the readers with
>> pronouncations.  I remember taking test and what I heard during the
>> test sounded nothing like what I heard on the tapes.  If I would have
>> had my books in braille I would have known the correct words and the
>> tests would have made sinse.  If yur going to read on tape then you
>> must be able to speak properly and say your words properly.  There was
>> the issue of only tape at a time and having to send 2 copies of every
>> book to recording for the blind to be recorded.  Audio is usless if I
>> don't know what you are saying. This is why we need braille.  Braille
>> readers don't make a big deal of how many volumes a book is it just is.

>> Brian Sackrider

>> On 3/6/2020 7:26 AM, chris judge wrote:
>>> This is true. There is a huge difference between not learning braille
>>> if you've lost your site later in life. The unfortunate fact is that
>>> even people who are blind since birth are not learning braille at the
>>> rate they were when I was a kid 50 years ago. If you are blind since
>>> birth and you don't learn braille you miss out on basic literacy. How
>>> do you learn proper spelling, grammar, punctuation and such if you
>>> don't learn braile. If you have had site you already understand these
>>> things so knowing braille isn't as paramount.

>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of
>>> Victor
>>> Sent: March 6, 2020 12:42 AM
>>> To: main@techtalk.groups.io
>>> Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

>>> Hello everyone:

>>> I would like to point out that many blind people lose their eyesight
>>> later in life and they find it too difficult to learn braille. It is
>>> much easier for them to access information by listening to audio.
>>> It’s hard enough for them to get over losing their eyesight and live
>>> without seeing their loved ones or other things ever again. The last
>>> thing they want is to learn a new skill that they may find just too
>>> difficult.

>>> After obtaining my iPhone, I attended a users group where are the
>>> people taught each other to use iOS devices. While at the group one
>>> day, one of the group leaders brought a focus 40 refreshable braille
>>> display for everyone to examine. I was the only blind person in the
>>> room interested in touching the device because I knew braille and I
>>> owned a previous generation of that device. It was not discussed, but
>>> I knew that they were not interested because most of them had lost
>>> their eyesight later in life. I suspect that they found it much
>>> easier to listen to audio than reading braille. Plus, most of them
>>> had learned how to access information using their iPhones. I’m sure
>>> they found it much easier to whip out their iPhones and listen to
>>> their books, podcasts, scan documents and do everything else we can
>>> do with our iPhones. I realize that not everyone owns a smart phone
>>> because they have not found a way to obtain one. I also realize that
>>> not everyone is into these types of gadgets. However, many blind
>>> people have discovered how great these gadgets are and how useful
>>> they can be in helping them become more independent. For many of us,
>>> that is the route we have chosen.

>>> In any case, don’t be too surprised if you meet a blind person who is
>>> not interested in learning braille. Don’t be too hard on those
>>> people. Maybe they just prefer to do what is easier.

>>> I am so glad that refreshable braille displays exist now. I am also
>>> glad that low cost refreshable braille displays are being developed.
>>> I definitely don’t miss the days of carrying bulky braille books to
>>> and from my classes. I do not miss the days of trying to look up
>>> words in the dictionary and dealing with a whole bookshelf of braille
>>> books. No thank you! I do not miss my five volume braille New Testament.

>>> If I did not already on a refreshable braille display, I would
>>> definitely look into obtaining the orbit braille reader or the
>>> braille me.


>>> Anyhow, these are just my rambling opinions.

>>> Victor Sent from my iPhone

>>>> On Mar 5, 2020, at 7:40 PM, brian <bsackrider55@...> wrote:

>>>>     Thanks Grumpy Dave for your explination.  I would be willing to
>>>> pay a few dollars to get braille. I am not saying that I should get
>>>> for free but not to have the option is my complaint.  My local
>>>> liberary use to provide braille for 10 cents per page.   I was also
>>>> told that if I provided the paper they would braille what I wanted.
>>>> They required 67 weight paper which I can get at Staples.  All to
>>>> often we are forced to except only audio as the only format that is
>>>> available. Braille will always be my prefered format because I
>>>> prefer to read for myself instead of just listen.  You say that you
>>>> hate braille but you can use it well I feel the same about audio.
>>>> Why do we have to be locked in to just one format?  How many people
>>>> would rather read than listen?  Blind or sighted. People who prefer
>>>> to read than should be commended instead of being kind of bashed for
>>>> it.  If not many blind people request braille than it should be no
>>>> trouble to provide it. Braille is not that dificult to produce once
>>>> you have the equipment.  my liberary had no trouble all they needed
>>>> was files in microsoft word and the paper and they were good to go.
>>>> I use to get my weekly meterials for my church all in grade 2
>>>> braille. It was really great to finally be an active participant in
>>>> the service instead just a pasive listener.  To be able to read
>>>> along with everyone else the verses and hyms and classes lessons is
>>>> a great feeling you just can't discribe the independence that it
>>>> givesyou.  It's kind of like having access to dvs you can finally
>>>> know what is going on when there is all of that dead air.  I was
>>>> able to read infront of the church and be active in bible study and
>>>> even lead the groop all using braille.  I do use braille menus when
>>>> ever possible even if I don't really need it just to let them see
>>>> that somone is acually using it.  Braille has given me a very full
>>>> life and I don't know whear my life would be with out braille.  I
>>>> feel that every blind person who is able to read braille should
>>>> learn it.  I do understand that there are blind people who have
>>>> medical conditions that prevents them from being able to read
>>>> braille.  For them they have no choice but to use audio but I do
>>>> have the choice I just don't like being limited to just audio only
>>>> and not braille.  You hate braille and I hate audio.  a good example
>>>> of when I wish that I had braille instead of a file was when I
>>>> requested my local newspaper to be accessable.  my lions club
>>>> purchassed a sara reading machine for me there was no braille manual
>>>> but there was a print manual.  I had to go to the help file on the
>>>> machine and try to find what I wanted.  When I called the paper
>>>> office they asked what files my machine could read.  If I had a
>>>> braille manual I could have just looked it up while on the phone and
>>>> gave them the answer.  I had to call back after I went to the help
>>>> file and found it.  This is very time concuming I can look up
>>>> somthing much faster in braille than any other format.  I am not
>>>> saying that I can do it as quick as a sighted person can with print
>>>> but for me it's the fastest way for me to get the job done.  When I
>>>> was a kid I attended the Michigan school the blind in Lansing and we
>>>> had to learn braille and all of our books were in braille.  There
>>>> was no I don't want to learn it you had to.  I will say that I can
>>>> certainly listen much faster than I can read but when it comes to
>>>> looking up somthing braille is faster hands down.  I have been blind
>>>> since birth and thats all I ever knew was braille. It's like the
>>>> sighted grew up with print.  I wanted to learn the opticon at the
>>>> rehab center but they would not let me because they said that I was
>>>> not fast enough.  I felt that I was learning and making progress and
>>>> I should had the right to continue but they said no. If somone
>>>> really wants to learn a new skil then they should beallowed to do
>>>> so.  If I am determind to learn somthing that then I will even
>>>> though it might take more time then the teacher would like.  I guess
>>>> that modavation means nothing.  If somone reallly wants to learn
>>>> braille so what ifit takes several month to do so they should not be
>>>> told no you can't continue.  If companies had the equipment to
>>>> produce braille they could charge me for the cost of the paper to
>>>> get braille manuals or catalogs.

>>>>> On 3/5/2020 9:26 PM, Dave wrote:
>>>>> Hello Brian,


>>>>> I have nothing against Braille other than the hassle it is to create
>>>>> it, such as a Manual in Braille.


>>>>> I've been blind for a long time now, and there were many times when I
>>>>> would have Kissed the Feet of anyone who gave me a manual in Audio
>>>>> format.  many times have I had to just Wing it, learning by Guess and
>>>>> by Golly.  Once Computers became a Tool for the Blind, Guessing was
>>>>> not always the best thing to do, as guessing wrong could ruin your
>>>>> day in a Big way.  Still can.


>>>>> but, Brian, I have no Beef with Braille.   To produce it is just
>>>>> not an
>>>>> easy task.  And I would guess that most manufacturers of items for
>>>>> the blind, may not want to hire another Staff member to do nothing
>>>>> but print out Manuals in Braille.


>>>>> Yes, it all sounds good, until the costs of doing such a thing is
>>>>> considered.


>>>>> These days, I do expect a Manual at least in a PDF format, if not an
>>>>> Audio file.  And if I own my own Braille Printer, I can then print
>>>>> out the PDF file.


>>>>> Although, I can't afford one of those printers, so I do without.


>>>>> However,  I could run the Audio file through an Audio to Text
>>>>> converter, and then print that file out in Braille.


>>>>> When I get nothing but an On Line Manual, where I need to go On Line
>>>>> to read the thing.  I am Thankful for at least that much, but I
>>>>> always look to see if I can just download the manual so I don't need
>>>>> to be going On Line so much.


>>>>> Call it my personal Taste.


>>>>> I would think most who are Blind have learned over and over again to
>>>>> look for Work Arounds for doing many things in Life.


>>>>> You like Braille, and while I do use it, I Hate it.  So a Braille
>>>>> Manual would be a waste of resources to send me one.


>>>>> You Love it, and can use it well.  So, when the Company doesn't send
>>>>> a manual in Braille, but has sent you one in PDF, or even Audio, if
>>>>> you want a manual in Braille, the Work around is to convert that
>>>>> Audio or
>>>>> PDF file into Braille.   And if you are like me, and can't afford a
>>>>> Braille Printer, there are Services that will take your Manual file
>>>>> and make you a manual in Braille.


>>>>> it may cost you a few dollars, which again is all part of the Life of
>>>>> someone who is Blind.  In the past, I have hired Readers to read
>>>>> Manuals on Tape.  Paid them $10 for every hour of Recorded material.


>>>>> I've paid people to read my Mail.  This was before smart Phones had
>>>>> built in Cameras and OCR programs.   I paid them $10 an hour too. this
>>>>> was back in the 1980's and 90's.


>>>>> I haven't had to hire anyone for about 20 years now


>>>>> And Dare I bring up the Quality of Manuals?  So often, regardless of
>>>>> what Format it comes in, the information in the thing is totally Nuts!
>>>>> It doesn't make Sense, and you can't tell if it is a Translation of
>>>>> something in Chinese to English, or from Chinese to Spanish and then
>>>>> Russian, and then to English etc.


>>>>> And some manuals that come in English  are so poorly written, lack
>>>>> helpful information and seem to be missing a great deal of actual
>>>>> instructional information and are next to useless in any format.


>>>>> Grumpy Dave



















> --
> They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
> They ask: "How Happy are You?"
> I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


>

--
Ann K. Parsons
Portal Tutoring
EMAIL:  akp@...
Author of The Demmies: http://www.dldbooks.com/annparsons/
Portal Tutoring web site:  http://www.portaltutoring.info
Skype: Putertutor

"All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost."




locked Re: warning if you doing business

Laz
 

Sorry Ann, but learning differences don't excuse his nastiness and
personal attacks on list, andc, he did stick his foot in his mouth
with his error-laden messages while claiming literacy due to his using
Braille.

Laz

On 3/7/20, Ann Parsons <akp@...> wrote:
Hi all,

No, he is not a troll. He has learning differences. Deal!

Ann P.


Original message:
I'm sorry, but this message is difficult to read. Is this a self-troll?
Cristóbal
-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of brian
Sent: Friday, March 6, 2020 12:01 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business
aAmen if you don't braille than you are not truly literate. If you
doubt this then read emails from blind people who don't know braille
there spelling and gramar and punctuation leave alot to be desired. I
have been there myself if I don't read then I to will fall in to trap
as well. If you truly want to be literate then you just have toread
and not just listen to audio. Those of us who do prefer braille and
would rather read than listen have only audio as the option all to
often. For me if I want to stay literate then I have to read braille
and as I said in my email to Grumpy Dave I can't amagine my life with
out braille. I have had braille most of my life and I would loose
independence ifI were to not know braille. Reading braille is active
reading but listening to audio or computer speech is just passive
reading. I prefer to activly read but most of the time I can't because
it's audio only. I do rember haveing to cary volumes of braille books
acrost campus at the blind school but I never gave it a though it was
just what I hav to do it was no problem for me at all. The campus at
the Michigan school for the blind in Lansing Michigan covered a 4 city
block area. I tried college back in 1987-1988 and I could have donee
much better if I had braille. I had tapes from recording forthe blind
but I had issues with the readers with pronouncations. I remember
taking test and what I heard during the test sounded nothing like what
I heard on the tapes. If I would have had my books in braille I would
have known the correct words and the tests would have made sinse. If
yur going to read on tape then you must be able to speak properly and
say your words properly. There was the issue of only tape at a time
and having to send 2 copies of every book to recording for the blind to
be recorded. Audio is usless if I don't know what you are saying. This
is why we need braille. Braille readers don't make a big deal of how
many volumes a book is it just is.
Brian Sackrider
On 3/6/2020 7:26 AM, chris judge wrote:
This is true. There is a huge difference between not learning braille
if you've lost your site later in life. The unfortunate fact is that
even people who are blind since birth are not learning braille at the
rate they were when I was a kid 50 years ago. If you are blind since
birth and you don't learn braille you miss out on basic literacy. How
do you learn proper spelling, grammar, punctuation and such if you
don't learn braile. If you have had site you already understand these
things so knowing braille isn't as paramount.
-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of
Victor
Sent: March 6, 2020 12:42 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business
Hello everyone:
I would like to point out that many blind people lose their eyesight
later in life and they find it too difficult to learn braille. It is
much easier for them to access information by listening to audio. It’s
hard enough for them to get over losing their eyesight and live without
seeing their loved ones or other things ever again. The last thing they
want is to learn a new skill that they may find just too difficult.
After obtaining my iPhone, I attended a users group where are the
people taught each other to use iOS devices. While at the group one
day, one of the group leaders brought a focus 40 refreshable braille
display for everyone to examine. I was the only blind person in the
room interested in touching the device because I knew braille and I
owned a previous generation of that device. It was not discussed, but I
knew that they were not interested because most of them had lost their
eyesight later in life. I suspect that they found it much easier to
listen to audio than reading braille. Plus, most of them had learned
how to access information using their iPhones. I’m sure they found it
much easier to whip out their iPhones and listen to their books,
podcasts, scan documents and do everything else we can do with our
iPhones. I realize that not everyone owns a smart phone because they
have not found a way to obtain one. I also realize that not everyone is
into these types of gadgets. However, many blind people have discovered
how great these gadgets are and how useful they can be in helping them
become more independent. For many of us, that is the route we have
chosen.
In any case, don’t be too surprised if you meet a blind person who is
not interested in learning braille. Don’t be too hard on those people.
Maybe they just prefer to do what is easier.
I am so glad that refreshable braille displays exist now. I am also
glad that low cost refreshable braille displays are being developed. I
definitely don’t miss the days of carrying bulky braille books to and
from my classes. I do not miss the days of trying to look up words in
the dictionary and dealing with a whole bookshelf of braille books. No
thank you! I do not miss my five volume braille New Testament.
If I did not already on a refreshable braille display, I would
definitely look into obtaining the orbit braille reader or the braille
me.

Anyhow, these are just my rambling opinions.
Victor Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 5, 2020, at 7:40 PM, brian <bsackrider55@...> wrote:
 Thanks Grumpy Dave for your explination. I would be willing to
pay a few dollars to get braille. I am not saying that I should get for
free but not to have the option is my complaint. My local liberary use
to provide braille for 10 cents per page. I was also told that if I
provided the paper they would braille what I wanted. They required 67
weight paper which I can get at Staples. All to often we are forced to
except only audio as the only format that is available. Braille will
always be my prefered format because I prefer to read for myself
instead of just listen. You say that you hate braille but you can use
it well I feel the same about audio. Why do we have to be locked in to
just one format? How many people would rather read than listen? Blind
or sighted. People who prefer to read than should be commended instead
of being kind of bashed for it. If not many blind people request
braille than it should be no trouble to provide it. Braille is not that
dificult to produce once you have the equipment. my liberary had no
trouble all they needed was files in microsoft word and the paper and
they were good to go. I use to get my weekly meterials for my church
all in grade 2 braille. It was really great to finally be an active
participant in the service instead just a pasive listener. To be able
to read along with everyone else the verses and hyms and classes
lessons is a great feeling you just can't discribe the independence
that it givesyou. It's kind of like having access to dvs you can
finally know what is going on when there is all of that dead air. I
was able to read infront of the church and be active in bible study and
even lead the groop all using braille. I do use braille menus when
ever possible even if I don't really need it just to let them see that
somone is acually using it. Braille has given me a very full life and
I don't know whear my life would be with out braille. I feel that
every blind person who is able to read braille should learn it. I do
understand that there are blind people who have medical conditions that
prevents them from being able to read braille. For them they have no
choice but to use audio but I do have the choice I just don't like
being limited to just audio only and not braille. You hate braille and
I hate audio. a good example of when I wish that I had braille instead
of a file was when I requested my local newspaper to be accessable. my
lions club purchassed a sara reading machine for me there was no
braille manual but there was a print manual. I had to go to the help
file on the machine and try to find what I wanted. When I called the
paper office they asked what files my machine could read. If I had a
braille manual I could have just looked it up while on the phone and
gave them the answer. I had to call back after I went to the help file
and found it. This is very time concuming I can look up somthing much
faster in braille than any other format. I am not saying that I can do
it as quick as a sighted person can with print but for me it's the
fastest way for me to get the job done. When I was a kid I attended
the Michigan school the blind in Lansing and we had to learn braille
and all of our books were in braille. There was no I don't want to
learn it you had to. I will say that I can certainly listen much
faster than I can read but when it comes to looking up somthing braille
is faster hands down. I have been blind since birth and thats all I
ever knew was braille. It's like the sighted grew up with print. I
wanted to learn the opticon at the rehab center but they would not let
me because they said that I was not fast enough. I felt that I was
learning and making progress and I should had the right to continue but
they said no. If somone really wants to learn a new skil then they
should beallowed to do so. If I am determind to learn somthing that
then I will even though it might take more time then the teacher would
like. I guess that modavation means nothing. If somone reallly wants
to learn braille so what ifit takes several month to do so they should
not be told no you can't continue. If companies had the equipment to
produce braille they could charge me for the cost of the paper to get
braille manuals or catalogs.
On 3/5/2020 9:26 PM, Dave wrote:
Hello Brian,

I have nothing against Braille other than the hassle it is to create
it, such as a Manual in Braille.

I've been blind for a long time now, and there were many times when
I would have Kissed the Feet of anyone who gave me a manual in Audio
format. many times have I had to just Wing it, learning by Guess
and by Golly. Once Computers became a Tool for the Blind, Guessing
was not always the best thing to do, as guessing wrong could ruin
your day in a Big way. Still can.

but, Brian, I have no Beef with Braille. To produce it is just not an
easy task. And I would guess that most manufacturers of items for
the blind, may not want to hire another Staff member to do nothing
but print out Manuals in Braille.

Yes, it all sounds good, until the costs of doing such a thing is
considered.

These days, I do expect a Manual at least in a PDF format, if not an
Audio file. And if I own my own Braille Printer, I can then print
out the PDF file.

Although, I can't afford one of those printers, so I do without.

However, I could run the Audio file through an Audio to Text
converter, and then print that file out in Braille.

When I get nothing but an On Line Manual, where I need to go On Line
to read the thing. I am Thankful for at least that much, but I
always look to see if I can just download the manual so I don't need
to be going On Line so much.

Call it my personal Taste.

I would think most who are Blind have learned over and over again to
look for Work Arounds for doing many things in Life.

You like Braille, and while I do use it, I Hate it. So a Braille
Manual would be a waste of resources to send me one.

You Love it, and can use it well. So, when the Company doesn't send
a manual in Braille, but has sent you one in PDF, or even Audio, if
you want a manual in Braille, the Work around is to convert that Audio
or
PDF file into Braille. And if you are like me, and can't afford a
Braille Printer, there are Services that will take your Manual file
and make you a manual in Braille.

it may cost you a few dollars, which again is all part of the Life
of someone who is Blind. In the past, I have hired Readers to read
Manuals on Tape. Paid them $10 for every hour of Recorded material.

I've paid people to read my Mail. This was before smart Phones had
built in Cameras and OCR programs. I paid them $10 an hour too. this
was back in the 1980's and 90's.

I haven't had to hire anyone for about 20 years now

And Dare I bring up the Quality of Manuals? So often, regardless of
what Format it comes in, the information in the thing is totally Nuts!
It doesn't make Sense, and you can't tell if it is a Translation of
something in Chinese to English, or from Chinese to Spanish and then
Russian, and then to English etc.

And some manuals that come in English are so poorly written, lack
helpful information and seem to be missing a great deal of actual
instructional information and are next to useless in any format.

Grumpy Dave


















--
Ann K. Parsons
Portal Tutoring
EMAIL: akp@...
Author of The Demmies: http://www.dldbooks.com/annparsons/
Portal Tutoring web site: http://www.portaltutoring.info
Skype: Putertutor

"All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost."



--
Affordably priced Accessible Talking MP3 Players, Accessible phones,
Bluetooth devices, and accessories
http://www.talkingmp3players.com/
Email: laz@...
Phone: 727-498-0121
Skype: lazmesa
Personal Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/laz.mesa
Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/Talkingmp3players?_rdr


locked Re: warning if you doing business

Laz
 

Yes, it's an active and thriving list with many transactions occurring
on a daily basis. There are nearly 1000 members but if you want the
most exposure for your ad whether you're selling, buying, or trading
then it's the list you want to be on and not the smaller, less active,
and moribund lists which are still out there besides most of the
people on those smaller lists are on BlindAds as well. To subscribe
just send a blank email message to the following email address,

BlindAds+subscribe@groups.io

Take care,

Laz

On 3/7/20, Evan Reese <mentat1@...> wrote:
My thought would be that if you want to find a nice braille display at a
good price is to subscribe to the Blind Ads list.
I got a perfectly functional Pac Mate Omni BX version with a great 40-cell
braille display from someone on that list for $400.
Sure, it's older technology, but it'll still do a lot of stuff. And for
plain old reading, it's more than adequate.
there have been other great deals on braille displays as well.
The traffic is pretty high though. But one good deal makes it worthwhile to

join.
Evan

-----Original Message-----
From: David L Minton, Jr
Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2020 12:58 PM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

Good afternoon, I am almost 45 years old, I am going at the learning braille

again for the third time. I am doing a lot better this time with Hadley. I
am hoping I can find a reasonable priced braille note or display that can
help me in practicing my braille before I purchase a high priced display.
Any help or thoughts would be very much appreciated. Have a great day.
On Mar 7, 2020, at 12:28 PM, Ron Canazzi <aa2vm@...> wrote:

Hi Group,

OK, I'm the culprit here! I am the one who wrote the corrective post
concerning Brian's original post. I used to be a tutor of
sorts--instructing blind people in everything from Spanish language to
computers.

...But you have to admit, when someone writes a post castigating everyone

who doesn't have the desire to use Braille as their chief focus for
acquiring information and then who at the same time--castigates those who

post sloppy e-mails as the chief example of just why everybody should
focus on Braille--the temptation was irresistible.

I wasn't aware of Brian's limitations and for that I am truly sorry.


On 3/7/2020 7:13 AM, Ann Parsons wrote:
Hi all,

No, he is not a troll. He has learning differences. Deal!

Ann P.


Original message:
I'm sorry, but this message is difficult to read. Is this a self-troll?
Cristóbal
-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of
brian
Sent: Friday, March 6, 2020 12:01 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business
aAmen if you don't braille than you are not truly literate. If you

doubt this then read emails from blind people who don't know braille
there spelling and gramar and punctuation leave alot to be desired. I
have been there myself if I don't read then I to will fall in to trap as

well. If you truly want to be literate then you just have toread and not

just listen to audio. Those of us who do prefer braille and would
rather read than listen have only audio as the option all to often. For

me if I want to stay literate then I have to read braille and as I said

in my email to Grumpy Dave I can't amagine my life with out braille. I

have had braille most of my life and I would loose independence ifI were

to not know braille. Reading braille is active reading but listening to

audio or computer speech is just passive reading. I prefer to activly
read but most of the time I can't because it's audio only. I do rember

haveing to cary volumes of braille books acrost campus at the blind
school but I never gave it a though it was just what I hav to do it was

no problem for me at all. The campus at the Michigan school for the
blind in Lansing Michigan covered a 4 city block area. I tried college

back in 1987-1988 and I could have donee much better if I had braille. I

had tapes from recording forthe blind but I had issues with the readers

with pronouncations. I remember taking test and what I heard during the

test sounded nothing like what I heard on the tapes. If I would have
had my books in braille I would have known the correct words and the
tests would have made sinse. If yur going to read on tape then you must

be able to speak properly and say your words properly. There was the
issue of only tape at a time and having to send 2 copies of every book
to recording for the blind to be recorded. Audio is usless if I don't
know what you are saying. This is why we need braille. Braille readers
don't make a big deal of how many volumes a book is it just is.
Brian Sackrider
On 3/6/2020 7:26 AM, chris judge wrote:
This is true. There is a huge difference between not learning braille
if you've lost your site later in life. The unfortunate fact is that
even people who are blind since birth are not learning braille at the
rate they were when I was a kid 50 years ago. If you are blind since
birth and you don't learn braille you miss out on basic literacy. How
do you learn proper spelling, grammar, punctuation and such if you
don't learn braile. If you have had site you already understand these
things so knowing braille isn't as paramount.
-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of
Victor
Sent: March 6, 2020 12:42 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business
Hello everyone:
I would like to point out that many blind people lose their eyesight
later in life and they find it too difficult to learn braille. It is
much easier for them to access information by listening to audio. It’s

hard enough for them to get over losing their eyesight and live without

seeing their loved ones or other things ever again. The last thing they

want is to learn a new skill that they may find just too difficult.
After obtaining my iPhone, I attended a users group where are the
people taught each other to use iOS devices. While at the group one
day, one of the group leaders brought a focus 40 refreshable braille
display for everyone to examine. I was the only blind person in the
room interested in touching the device because I knew braille and I
owned a previous generation of that device. It was not discussed, but I

knew that they were not interested because most of them had lost their

eyesight later in life. I suspect that they found it much easier to
listen to audio than reading braille. Plus, most of them had learned
how to access information using their iPhones. I’m sure they found it
much easier to whip out their iPhones and listen to their books,
podcasts, scan documents and do everything else we can do with our
iPhones. I realize that not everyone owns a smart phone because they
have not found a way to obtain one. I also realize that not everyone is

into these types of gadgets. However, many blind people have discovered

how great these gadgets are and how useful they can be in helping them

become more independent. For many of us, that is the route we have
chosen.
In any case, don’t be too surprised if you meet a blind person who is
not interested in learning braille. Don’t be too hard on those people.

Maybe they just prefer to do what is easier.
I am so glad that refreshable braille displays exist now. I am also
glad that low cost refreshable braille displays are being developed. I

definitely don’t miss the days of carrying bulky braille books to and
from my classes. I do not miss the days of trying to look up words in
the dictionary and dealing with a whole bookshelf of braille books. No

thank you! I do not miss my five volume braille New Testament.
If I did not already on a refreshable braille display, I would
definitely look into obtaining the orbit braille reader or the braille

me.

Anyhow, these are just my rambling opinions.
Victor Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 5, 2020, at 7:40 PM, brian <bsackrider55@...> wrote:
 Thanks Grumpy Dave for your explination. I would be willing to
pay a few dollars to get braille. I am not saying that I should get
for free but not to have the option is my complaint. My local
liberary use to provide braille for 10 cents per page. I was also
told that if I provided the paper they would braille what I wanted.
They required 67 weight paper which I can get at Staples. All to
often we are forced to except only audio as the only format that is
available. Braille will always be my prefered format because I prefer

to read for myself instead of just listen. You say that you hate
braille but you can use it well I feel the same about audio. Why do
we have to be locked in to just one format? How many people would
rather read than listen? Blind or sighted. People who prefer to read

than should be commended instead of being kind of bashed for it. If
not many blind people request braille than it should be no trouble to

provide it. Braille is not that dificult to produce once you have the

equipment. my liberary had no trouble all they needed was files in
microsoft word and the paper and they were good to go. I use to get
my weekly meterials for my church all in grade 2 braille. It was
really great to finally be an active participant in the service
instead just a pasive listener. To be able to read along with everyone

else the verses and hyms and classes lessons is a great feeling you
just can't discribe the independence that it givesyou. It's kind of
like having access to dvs you can finally know what is going on when
there is all of that dead air. I was able to read infront of the
church and be active in bible study and even lead the groop all using

braille. I do use braille menus when ever possible even if I don't
really need it just to let them see that somone is acually using it.
Braille has given me a very full life and I don't know whear my life
would be with out braille. I feel that every blind person who is able

to read braille should learn it. I do understand that there are blind

people who have medical conditions that prevents them from being able

to read braille. For them they have no choice but to use audio but I

do have the choice I just don't like being limited to just audio only

and not braille. You hate braille and I hate audio. a good example
of when I wish that I had braille instead of a file was when I
requested my local newspaper to be accessable. my lions club
purchassed a sara reading machine for me there was no braille manual
but there was a print manual. I had to go to the help file on the
machine and try to find what I wanted. When I called the paper office

they asked what files my machine could read. If I had a braille
manual I could have just looked it up while on the phone and gave them

the answer. I had to call back after I went to the help file and
found it. This is very time concuming I can look up somthing much
faster in braille than any other format. I am not saying that I can
do it as quick as a sighted person can with print but for me it's the

fastest way for me to get the job done. When I was a kid I attended
the Michigan school the blind in Lansing and we had to learn braille
and all of our books were in braille. There was no I don't want to
learn it you had to. I will say that I can certainly listen much
faster than I can read but when it comes to looking up somthing
braille is faster hands down. I have been blind since birth and thats

all I ever knew was braille. It's like the sighted grew up with
print. I wanted to learn the opticon at the rehab center but they
would not let me because they said that I was not fast enough. I felt

that I was learning and making progress and I should had the right to

continue but they said no. If somone really wants to learn a new skil

then they should beallowed to do so. If I am determind to learn
somthing that then I will even though it might take more time then the

teacher would like. I guess that modavation means nothing. If somone

reallly wants to learn braille so what ifit takes several month to do

so they should not be told no you can't continue. If companies had
the equipment to produce braille they could charge me for the cost of

the paper to get braille manuals or catalogs.
On 3/5/2020 9:26 PM, Dave wrote:
Hello Brian,

I have nothing against Braille other than the hassle it is to create
it, such as a Manual in Braille.

I've been blind for a long time now, and there were many times when
I would have Kissed the Feet of anyone who gave me a manual in Audio
format. many times have I had to just Wing it, learning by Guess
and by Golly. Once Computers became a Tool for the Blind, Guessing
was not always the best thing to do, as guessing wrong could ruin
your day in a Big way. Still can.

but, Brian, I have no Beef with Braille. To produce it is just not

an
easy task. And I would guess that most manufacturers of items for
the blind, may not want to hire another Staff member to do nothing
but print out Manuals in Braille.

Yes, it all sounds good, until the costs of doing such a thing is
considered.

These days, I do expect a Manual at least in a PDF format, if not an
Audio file. And if I own my own Braille Printer, I can then print
out the PDF file.

Although, I can't afford one of those printers, so I do without.

However, I could run the Audio file through an Audio to Text
converter, and then print that file out in Braille.

When I get nothing but an On Line Manual, where I need to go On Line
to read the thing. I am Thankful for at least that much, but I
always look to see if I can just download the manual so I don't need
to be going On Line so much.

Call it my personal Taste.

I would think most who are Blind have learned over and over again to
look for Work Arounds for doing many things in Life.

You like Braille, and while I do use it, I Hate it. So a Braille
Manual would be a waste of resources to send me one.

You Love it, and can use it well. So, when the Company doesn't send
a manual in Braille, but has sent you one in PDF, or even Audio, if
you want a manual in Braille, the Work around is to convert that
Audio or
PDF file into Braille. And if you are like me, and can't afford a
Braille Printer, there are Services that will take your Manual file
and make you a manual in Braille.

it may cost you a few dollars, which again is all part of the Life
of someone who is Blind. In the past, I have hired Readers to read
Manuals on Tape. Paid them $10 for every hour of Recorded material.

I've paid people to read my Mail. This was before smart Phones had
built in Cameras and OCR programs. I paid them $10 an hour too.
this
was back in the 1980's and 90's.

I haven't had to hire anyone for about 20 years now

And Dare I bring up the Quality of Manuals? So often, regardless of
what Format it comes in, the information in the thing is totally
Nuts!
It doesn't make Sense, and you can't tell if it is a Translation of
something in Chinese to English, or from Chinese to Spanish and then
Russian, and then to English etc.

And some manuals that come in English are so poorly written, lack
helpful information and seem to be missing a great deal of actual
instructional information and are next to useless in any format.

Grumpy Dave


















--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"









--
Affordably priced Accessible Talking MP3 Players, Accessible phones,
Bluetooth devices, and accessories
http://www.talkingmp3players.com/
Email: laz@...
Phone: 727-498-0121
Skype: lazmesa
Personal Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/laz.mesa
Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/Talkingmp3players?_rdr


locked Re: warning if you doing business

Evan Reese
 

My thought would be that if you want to find a nice braille display at a good price is to subscribe to the Blind Ads list.
I got a perfectly functional Pac Mate Omni BX version with a great 40-cell braille display from someone on that list for $400.
Sure, it's older technology, but it'll still do a lot of stuff. And for plain old reading, it's more than adequate.
there have been other great deals on braille displays as well.
The traffic is pretty high though. But one good deal makes it worthwhile to join.
Evan

-----Original Message-----
From: David L Minton, Jr
Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2020 12:58 PM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

Good afternoon, I am almost 45 years old, I am going at the learning braille again for the third time. I am doing a lot better this time with Hadley. I am hoping I can find a reasonable priced braille note or display that can help me in practicing my braille before I purchase a high priced display. Any help or thoughts would be very much appreciated. Have a great day.
On Mar 7, 2020, at 12:28 PM, Ron Canazzi <aa2vm@...> wrote:

Hi Group,

OK, I'm the culprit here! I am the one who wrote the corrective post concerning Brian's original post. I used to be a tutor of sorts--instructing blind people in everything from Spanish language to computers.

...But you have to admit, when someone writes a post castigating everyone who doesn't have the desire to use Braille as their chief focus for acquiring information and then who at the same time--castigates those who post sloppy e-mails as the chief example of just why everybody should focus on Braille--the temptation was irresistible.

I wasn't aware of Brian's limitations and for that I am truly sorry.


On 3/7/2020 7:13 AM, Ann Parsons wrote:
Hi all,

No, he is not a troll. He has learning differences. Deal!

Ann P.


Original message:
I'm sorry, but this message is difficult to read. Is this a self-troll?
Cristóbal
-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of brian
Sent: Friday, March 6, 2020 12:01 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business
aAmen if you don't braille than you are not truly literate. If you doubt this then read emails from blind people who don't know braille there spelling and gramar and punctuation leave alot to be desired. I have been there myself if I don't read then I to will fall in to trap as well. If you truly want to be literate then you just have toread and not just listen to audio. Those of us who do prefer braille and would rather read than listen have only audio as the option all to often. For me if I want to stay literate then I have to read braille and as I said in my email to Grumpy Dave I can't amagine my life with out braille. I have had braille most of my life and I would loose independence ifI were to not know braille. Reading braille is active reading but listening to audio or computer speech is just passive reading. I prefer to activly read but most of the time I can't because it's audio only. I do rember haveing to cary volumes of braille books acrost campus at the blind school but I never gave it a though it was just what I hav to do it was no problem for me at all. The campus at the Michigan school for the blind in Lansing Michigan covered a 4 city block area. I tried college back in 1987-1988 and I could have donee much better if I had braille. I had tapes from recording forthe blind but I had issues with the readers with pronouncations. I remember taking test and what I heard during the test sounded nothing like what I heard on the tapes. If I would have had my books in braille I would have known the correct words and the tests would have made sinse. If yur going to read on tape then you must be able to speak properly and say your words properly. There was the issue of only tape at a time and having to send 2 copies of every book to recording for the blind to be recorded. Audio is usless if I don't know what you are saying. This is why we need braille. Braille readers don't make a big deal of how many volumes a book is it just is.
Brian Sackrider
On 3/6/2020 7:26 AM, chris judge wrote:
This is true. There is a huge difference between not learning braille if you've lost your site later in life. The unfortunate fact is that even people who are blind since birth are not learning braille at the rate they were when I was a kid 50 years ago. If you are blind since birth and you don't learn braille you miss out on basic literacy. How do you learn proper spelling, grammar, punctuation and such if you don't learn braile. If you have had site you already understand these things so knowing braille isn't as paramount.
-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of
Victor
Sent: March 6, 2020 12:42 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business
Hello everyone:
I would like to point out that many blind people lose their eyesight later in life and they find it too difficult to learn braille. It is much easier for them to access information by listening to audio. It’s hard enough for them to get over losing their eyesight and live without seeing their loved ones or other things ever again. The last thing they want is to learn a new skill that they may find just too difficult.
After obtaining my iPhone, I attended a users group where are the people taught each other to use iOS devices. While at the group one day, one of the group leaders brought a focus 40 refreshable braille display for everyone to examine. I was the only blind person in the room interested in touching the device because I knew braille and I owned a previous generation of that device. It was not discussed, but I knew that they were not interested because most of them had lost their eyesight later in life. I suspect that they found it much easier to listen to audio than reading braille. Plus, most of them had learned how to access information using their iPhones. I’m sure they found it much easier to whip out their iPhones and listen to their books, podcasts, scan documents and do everything else we can do with our iPhones. I realize that not everyone owns a smart phone because they have not found a way to obtain one. I also realize that not everyone is into these types of gadgets. However, many blind people have discovered how great these gadgets are and how useful they can be in helping them become more independent. For many of us, that is the route we have chosen.
In any case, don’t be too surprised if you meet a blind person who is not interested in learning braille. Don’t be too hard on those people. Maybe they just prefer to do what is easier.
I am so glad that refreshable braille displays exist now. I am also glad that low cost refreshable braille displays are being developed. I definitely don’t miss the days of carrying bulky braille books to and from my classes. I do not miss the days of trying to look up words in the dictionary and dealing with a whole bookshelf of braille books. No thank you! I do not miss my five volume braille New Testament.
If I did not already on a refreshable braille display, I would definitely look into obtaining the orbit braille reader or the braille me.

Anyhow, these are just my rambling opinions.
Victor Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 5, 2020, at 7:40 PM, brian <bsackrider55@...> wrote:
 Thanks Grumpy Dave for your explination. I would be willing to pay a few dollars to get braille. I am not saying that I should get for free but not to have the option is my complaint. My local liberary use to provide braille for 10 cents per page. I was also told that if I provided the paper they would braille what I wanted. They required 67 weight paper which I can get at Staples. All to often we are forced to except only audio as the only format that is available. Braille will always be my prefered format because I prefer to read for myself instead of just listen. You say that you hate braille but you can use it well I feel the same about audio. Why do we have to be locked in to just one format? How many people would rather read than listen? Blind or sighted. People who prefer to read than should be commended instead of being kind of bashed for it. If not many blind people request braille than it should be no trouble to provide it. Braille is not that dificult to produce once you have the equipment. my liberary had no trouble all they needed was files in microsoft word and the paper and they were good to go. I use to get my weekly meterials for my church all in grade 2 braille. It was really great to finally be an active participant in the service instead just a pasive listener. To be able to read along with everyone else the verses and hyms and classes lessons is a great feeling you just can't discribe the independence that it givesyou. It's kind of like having access to dvs you can finally know what is going on when there is all of that dead air. I was able to read infront of the church and be active in bible study and even lead the groop all using braille. I do use braille menus when ever possible even if I don't really need it just to let them see that somone is acually using it. Braille has given me a very full life and I don't know whear my life would be with out braille. I feel that every blind person who is able to read braille should learn it. I do understand that there are blind people who have medical conditions that prevents them from being able to read braille. For them they have no choice but to use audio but I do have the choice I just don't like being limited to just audio only and not braille. You hate braille and I hate audio. a good example of when I wish that I had braille instead of a file was when I requested my local newspaper to be accessable. my lions club purchassed a sara reading machine for me there was no braille manual but there was a print manual. I had to go to the help file on the machine and try to find what I wanted. When I called the paper office they asked what files my machine could read. If I had a braille manual I could have just looked it up while on the phone and gave them the answer. I had to call back after I went to the help file and found it. This is very time concuming I can look up somthing much faster in braille than any other format. I am not saying that I can do it as quick as a sighted person can with print but for me it's the fastest way for me to get the job done. When I was a kid I attended the Michigan school the blind in Lansing and we had to learn braille and all of our books were in braille. There was no I don't want to learn it you had to. I will say that I can certainly listen much faster than I can read but when it comes to looking up somthing braille is faster hands down. I have been blind since birth and thats all I ever knew was braille. It's like the sighted grew up with print. I wanted to learn the opticon at the rehab center but they would not let me because they said that I was not fast enough. I felt that I was learning and making progress and I should had the right to continue but they said no. If somone really wants to learn a new skil then they should beallowed to do so. If I am determind to learn somthing that then I will even though it might take more time then the teacher would like. I guess that modavation means nothing. If somone reallly wants to learn braille so what ifit takes several month to do so they should not be told no you can't continue. If companies had the equipment to produce braille they could charge me for the cost of the paper to get braille manuals or catalogs.
On 3/5/2020 9:26 PM, Dave wrote:
Hello Brian,

I have nothing against Braille other than the hassle it is to create
it, such as a Manual in Braille.

I've been blind for a long time now, and there were many times when
I would have Kissed the Feet of anyone who gave me a manual in Audio
format. many times have I had to just Wing it, learning by Guess
and by Golly. Once Computers became a Tool for the Blind, Guessing
was not always the best thing to do, as guessing wrong could ruin
your day in a Big way. Still can.

but, Brian, I have no Beef with Braille. To produce it is just not an
easy task. And I would guess that most manufacturers of items for
the blind, may not want to hire another Staff member to do nothing
but print out Manuals in Braille.

Yes, it all sounds good, until the costs of doing such a thing is
considered.

These days, I do expect a Manual at least in a PDF format, if not an
Audio file. And if I own my own Braille Printer, I can then print
out the PDF file.

Although, I can't afford one of those printers, so I do without.

However, I could run the Audio file through an Audio to Text
converter, and then print that file out in Braille.

When I get nothing but an On Line Manual, where I need to go On Line
to read the thing. I am Thankful for at least that much, but I
always look to see if I can just download the manual so I don't need
to be going On Line so much.

Call it my personal Taste.

I would think most who are Blind have learned over and over again to
look for Work Arounds for doing many things in Life.

You like Braille, and while I do use it, I Hate it. So a Braille
Manual would be a waste of resources to send me one.

You Love it, and can use it well. So, when the Company doesn't send
a manual in Braille, but has sent you one in PDF, or even Audio, if
you want a manual in Braille, the Work around is to convert that Audio or
PDF file into Braille. And if you are like me, and can't afford a
Braille Printer, there are Services that will take your Manual file
and make you a manual in Braille.

it may cost you a few dollars, which again is all part of the Life
of someone who is Blind. In the past, I have hired Readers to read
Manuals on Tape. Paid them $10 for every hour of Recorded material.

I've paid people to read my Mail. This was before smart Phones had
built in Cameras and OCR programs. I paid them $10 an hour too. this
was back in the 1980's and 90's.

I haven't had to hire anyone for about 20 years now

And Dare I bring up the Quality of Manuals? So often, regardless of
what Format it comes in, the information in the thing is totally Nuts!
It doesn't make Sense, and you can't tell if it is a Translation of
something in Chinese to English, or from Chinese to Spanish and then
Russian, and then to English etc.

And some manuals that come in English are so poorly written, lack
helpful information and seem to be missing a great deal of actual
instructional information and are next to useless in any format.

Grumpy Dave


















--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"




locked Re: warning if you doing business

Pamela Dominguez
 

I know that address. I used to have a lot of information about stuff coming out of that address. When I was in Philadelphia with my husband, we tried to look it up, but we didn't know it had changed its name. Pam.

-----Original Message-----
From: jan howells via Groups.Io
Sent: Friday, March 06, 2020 11:41 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

Those who are braille advocates will appreciate the Braille
Revival League in Philadelphia. It is at 919 Walnut Street.
That is Associated Services for the Blind. They keep braille
alive as best they can so that it never dies. Enjoy!

Jan




--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com


locked Re: warning if you doing business

David L Minton, Jr
 

Good afternoon, I am almost 45 years old, I am going at the learning braille again for the third time. I am doing a lot better this time with Hadley. I am hoping I can find a reasonable priced braille note or display that can help me in practicing my braille before I purchase a high priced display. Any help or thoughts would be very much appreciated. Have a great day.

On Mar 7, 2020, at 12:28 PM, Ron Canazzi <aa2vm@...> wrote:

Hi Group,

OK, I'm the culprit here! I am the one who wrote the corrective post concerning Brian's original post. I used to be a tutor of sorts--instructing blind people in everything from Spanish language to computers.

...But you have to admit, when someone writes a post castigating everyone who doesn't have the desire to use Braille as their chief focus for acquiring information and then who at the same time--castigates those who post sloppy e-mails as the chief example of just why everybody should focus on Braille--the temptation was irresistible.

I wasn't aware of Brian's limitations and for that I am truly sorry.


On 3/7/2020 7:13 AM, Ann Parsons wrote:
Hi all,

No, he is not a troll. He has learning differences. Deal!

Ann P.


Original message:
I'm sorry, but this message is difficult to read. Is this a self-troll?
Cristóbal
-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of brian
Sent: Friday, March 6, 2020 12:01 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business
aAmen if you don't braille than you are not truly literate. If you doubt this then read emails from blind people who don't know braille there spelling and gramar and punctuation leave alot to be desired. I have been there myself if I don't read then I to will fall in to trap as well. If you truly want to be literate then you just have toread and not just listen to audio. Those of us who do prefer braille and would rather read than listen have only audio as the option all to often. For me if I want to stay literate then I have to read braille and as I said in my email to Grumpy Dave I can't amagine my life with out braille. I have had braille most of my life and I would loose independence ifI were to not know braille. Reading braille is active reading but listening to audio or computer speech is just passive reading. I prefer to activly read but most of the time I can't because it's audio only. I do rember haveing to cary volumes of braille books acrost campus at the blind school but I never gave it a though it was just what I hav to do it was no problem for me at all. The campus at the Michigan school for the blind in Lansing Michigan covered a 4 city block area. I tried college back in 1987-1988 and I could have donee much better if I had braille. I had tapes from recording forthe blind but I had issues with the readers with pronouncations. I remember taking test and what I heard during the test sounded nothing like what I heard on the tapes. If I would have had my books in braille I would have known the correct words and the tests would have made sinse. If yur going to read on tape then you must be able to speak properly and say your words properly. There was the issue of only tape at a time and having to send 2 copies of every book to recording for the blind to be recorded. Audio is usless if I don't know what you are saying. This is why we need braille. Braille readers don't make a big deal of how many volumes a book is it just is.
Brian Sackrider
On 3/6/2020 7:26 AM, chris judge wrote:
This is true. There is a huge difference between not learning braille if you've lost your site later in life. The unfortunate fact is that even people who are blind since birth are not learning braille at the rate they were when I was a kid 50 years ago. If you are blind since birth and you don't learn braille you miss out on basic literacy. How do you learn proper spelling, grammar, punctuation and such if you don't learn braile. If you have had site you already understand these things so knowing braille isn't as paramount.
-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of
Victor
Sent: March 6, 2020 12:42 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business
Hello everyone:
I would like to point out that many blind people lose their eyesight later in life and they find it too difficult to learn braille. It is much easier for them to access information by listening to audio. It’s hard enough for them to get over losing their eyesight and live without seeing their loved ones or other things ever again. The last thing they want is to learn a new skill that they may find just too difficult.
After obtaining my iPhone, I attended a users group where are the people taught each other to use iOS devices. While at the group one day, one of the group leaders brought a focus 40 refreshable braille display for everyone to examine. I was the only blind person in the room interested in touching the device because I knew braille and I owned a previous generation of that device. It was not discussed, but I knew that they were not interested because most of them had lost their eyesight later in life. I suspect that they found it much easier to listen to audio than reading braille. Plus, most of them had learned how to access information using their iPhones. I’m sure they found it much easier to whip out their iPhones and listen to their books, podcasts, scan documents and do everything else we can do with our iPhones. I realize that not everyone owns a smart phone because they have not found a way to obtain one. I also realize that not everyone is into these types of gadgets. However, many blind people have discovered how great these gadgets are and how useful they can be in helping them become more independent. For many of us, that is the route we have chosen.
In any case, don’t be too surprised if you meet a blind person who is not interested in learning braille. Don’t be too hard on those people. Maybe they just prefer to do what is easier.
I am so glad that refreshable braille displays exist now. I am also glad that low cost refreshable braille displays are being developed. I definitely don’t miss the days of carrying bulky braille books to and from my classes. I do not miss the days of trying to look up words in the dictionary and dealing with a whole bookshelf of braille books. No thank you! I do not miss my five volume braille New Testament.
If I did not already on a refreshable braille display, I would definitely look into obtaining the orbit braille reader or the braille me.

Anyhow, these are just my rambling opinions.
Victor Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 5, 2020, at 7:40 PM, brian <bsackrider55@...> wrote:
 Thanks Grumpy Dave for your explination. I would be willing to pay a few dollars to get braille. I am not saying that I should get for free but not to have the option is my complaint. My local liberary use to provide braille for 10 cents per page. I was also told that if I provided the paper they would braille what I wanted. They required 67 weight paper which I can get at Staples. All to often we are forced to except only audio as the only format that is available. Braille will always be my prefered format because I prefer to read for myself instead of just listen. You say that you hate braille but you can use it well I feel the same about audio. Why do we have to be locked in to just one format? How many people would rather read than listen? Blind or sighted. People who prefer to read than should be commended instead of being kind of bashed for it. If not many blind people request braille than it should be no trouble to provide it. Braille is not that dificult to produce once you have the equipment. my liberary had no trouble all they needed was files in microsoft word and the paper and they were good to go. I use to get my weekly meterials for my church all in grade 2 braille. It was really great to finally be an active participant in the service instead just a pasive listener. To be able to read along with everyone else the verses and hyms and classes lessons is a great feeling you just can't discribe the independence that it givesyou. It's kind of like having access to dvs you can finally know what is going on when there is all of that dead air. I was able to read infront of the church and be active in bible study and even lead the groop all using braille. I do use braille menus when ever possible even if I don't really need it just to let them see that somone is acually using it. Braille has given me a very full life and I don't know whear my life would be with out braille. I feel that every blind person who is able to read braille should learn it. I do understand that there are blind people who have medical conditions that prevents them from being able to read braille. For them they have no choice but to use audio but I do have the choice I just don't like being limited to just audio only and not braille. You hate braille and I hate audio. a good example of when I wish that I had braille instead of a file was when I requested my local newspaper to be accessable. my lions club purchassed a sara reading machine for me there was no braille manual but there was a print manual. I had to go to the help file on the machine and try to find what I wanted. When I called the paper office they asked what files my machine could read. If I had a braille manual I could have just looked it up while on the phone and gave them the answer. I had to call back after I went to the help file and found it. This is very time concuming I can look up somthing much faster in braille than any other format. I am not saying that I can do it as quick as a sighted person can with print but for me it's the fastest way for me to get the job done. When I was a kid I attended the Michigan school the blind in Lansing and we had to learn braille and all of our books were in braille. There was no I don't want to learn it you had to. I will say that I can certainly listen much faster than I can read but when it comes to looking up somthing braille is faster hands down. I have been blind since birth and thats all I ever knew was braille. It's like the sighted grew up with print. I wanted to learn the opticon at the rehab center but they would not let me because they said that I was not fast enough. I felt that I was learning and making progress and I should had the right to continue but they said no. If somone really wants to learn a new skil then they should beallowed to do so. If I am determind to learn somthing that then I will even though it might take more time then the teacher would like. I guess that modavation means nothing. If somone reallly wants to learn braille so what ifit takes several month to do so they should not be told no you can't continue. If companies had the equipment to produce braille they could charge me for the cost of the paper to get braille manuals or catalogs.
On 3/5/2020 9:26 PM, Dave wrote:
Hello Brian,

I have nothing against Braille other than the hassle it is to create
it, such as a Manual in Braille.

I've been blind for a long time now, and there were many times when
I would have Kissed the Feet of anyone who gave me a manual in Audio
format. many times have I had to just Wing it, learning by Guess
and by Golly. Once Computers became a Tool for the Blind, Guessing
was not always the best thing to do, as guessing wrong could ruin
your day in a Big way. Still can.

but, Brian, I have no Beef with Braille. To produce it is just not an
easy task. And I would guess that most manufacturers of items for
the blind, may not want to hire another Staff member to do nothing
but print out Manuals in Braille.

Yes, it all sounds good, until the costs of doing such a thing is
considered.

These days, I do expect a Manual at least in a PDF format, if not an
Audio file. And if I own my own Braille Printer, I can then print
out the PDF file.

Although, I can't afford one of those printers, so I do without.

However, I could run the Audio file through an Audio to Text
converter, and then print that file out in Braille.

When I get nothing but an On Line Manual, where I need to go On Line
to read the thing. I am Thankful for at least that much, but I
always look to see if I can just download the manual so I don't need
to be going On Line so much.

Call it my personal Taste.

I would think most who are Blind have learned over and over again to
look for Work Arounds for doing many things in Life.

You like Braille, and while I do use it, I Hate it. So a Braille
Manual would be a waste of resources to send me one.

You Love it, and can use it well. So, when the Company doesn't send
a manual in Braille, but has sent you one in PDF, or even Audio, if
you want a manual in Braille, the Work around is to convert that Audio or
PDF file into Braille. And if you are like me, and can't afford a
Braille Printer, there are Services that will take your Manual file
and make you a manual in Braille.

it may cost you a few dollars, which again is all part of the Life
of someone who is Blind. In the past, I have hired Readers to read
Manuals on Tape. Paid them $10 for every hour of Recorded material.

I've paid people to read my Mail. This was before smart Phones had
built in Cameras and OCR programs. I paid them $10 an hour too. this
was back in the 1980's and 90's.

I haven't had to hire anyone for about 20 years now

And Dare I bring up the Quality of Manuals? So often, regardless of
what Format it comes in, the information in the thing is totally Nuts!
It doesn't make Sense, and you can't tell if it is a Translation of
something in Chinese to English, or from Chinese to Spanish and then
Russian, and then to English etc.

And some manuals that come in English are so poorly written, lack
helpful information and seem to be missing a great deal of actual
instructional information and are next to useless in any format.

Grumpy Dave


















--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"




locked Re: warning if you doing business

Ron Canazzi
 

Hi Gene,

You are of the conviction to never state in a few words what you can state in several hundred.  I've been accused of this in the past also.

Long story short: People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.  That's what prompted my response to Brian in the way I did. 

I can't comment definitively on Ann's response--although I do know she is a very competent teacher and instructor in the various aspects of visually impaired technology. Maybe she knows Brian; she'll have to comment on that.



On 3/7/2020 12:13 PM, Gene wrote:
You are making unsupported statements.  How do you know Brian has learning differences?  How do you know he was coasted through school?  I'll offer an alternative explanation.  I'm not saying either are correct nor am I saying which one may or may not account for observed phenomena better.  But how do you know that some or many of these errors are not the result of someone feeling strongly about something and rushing to get the message written as quickly as possible?  If Brian is typing far above the speed at which he types more accurately, that may result in some of what is observed.  And, since I've seen messages from Brian that don't have all these mistakes, I'll consider my theory to be a possibly better explanation, since I don't know Brian's background and I think it is absurd to infer some sort of learning differences based on a few e-mails. 
 
But none of this, learning differences, spelling difficulties, a rush to type as quickly as you can to get your message out as fast as possible, none of these possibilities precludes the use of a spell checker. 
 
To this point, I have been writing as a list member.  I am now writing as the list owner.
 
This discussion has been very interesting and we know more about each other than we did, thus helping build community on the list.  But if the discussion becomes mostly one of how messages are written, I'll close it.  I realize that you and a few others may want to respond to what I and others have said but this part of the discussion shouldn't continue for more than a few more messages. 
 
Now, I'm writing as a list member again.
 
Brian, I would think it may be uncomfortable seeing your writing critiqued.  But keep these things in mind and you may find the experience useful:
My view is that if I expect someone to spend the time reading my messages and thinking about them, I have a certain responsibility to make them reasonably readable.  In your case, many people probably have to stop to review phrases where words are written together without spaces.  Because I've seen messages from you that are much better written, it appears to me that if you get emotional about a subject, you rush to write what you want as quickly as you can.  the result is errors that make your messages difficult to read, such as words written together with no spaces. 
 
As to spelling, in general I would just let that go.  But when you call a whole class of people illiterate, then don't use a spellchecker and have misspelled wordafter misspelled word, then, like it or not, you become part of the discussion.  Like it or not, literacy is partly sending a message without perhaps thirty or forty or more misspelled words.  And nothing precludes you from using a spellchecker.  As I said, in general I wouldn't comment on spelling, but it is inevitable that at least a few people will when you accuse people of being illiterate and don't use a spell checker, resulting in a great many misspellings.  It's as though I attended a cooking contest, made a speech before the event in which I said that with frozen dinners, no one knows how to cook anymore, then I burned the soup and my main dish. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2020 6:27 AM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

Hi all,

I could write a long rant about how I am treated when I correct
people's spelling publicly.  I have been called harsh and arrogant and
more.  I won't do that because it would be counter-productive.  I will
say, however, that taking advantage of someone who has made a public
mistake is, I feel, cruel.  it demeans those who perpetuate such crimes.

If you wish to correct Brian's writing, you might do so privately,
thereby giving him the dignity he deserves.  It isn't his fault that he
was coasted through school.  It isn't his fault that he may not have a
braille display or possess hard copy braille so that he could improve
his writing.

If you want to help, take it off-list!  Truly be of service and not
part of the problem.

Ann P.


Original message:
> Now Brian,

> I don't want to personalize this, but you say you're a good
> Braille reader now: correct?  You say that people who use audio
> primarily aren't truly literate and you can tell by the way they write
> e-mails: is that what you're saying?  Well let me be your teacher and
> quote and correct your own mistakes that you have made in your lengthy
> reply.

> <spelling error>    aAmen(I guess you are trying to say Amen to that or
> something similar--note the repetition of the first letter A.)

> <grammatical clumsiness> if you don't braille than you are not truly
> literate. (I guess you mean: if you don't know/use/are competent in,
> Braille then you are not truly literate.)

> <run on sentence> If you doubt this then read emails from blind people
> who don't know braille there spelling and (There should be a period
> after the word Braille.)

> <spelling error> gramar and punctuation leave alot to be desired.  (In
> this sentence grammar and a lot are misspelled.)

> <run on sentence> I have been there myself if I don't read then I to
> will fall in to trap as well.  (There should be a period after the word
> myself.)

> If you truly want to be literate then you just have
> <spelling error> toread and not just listen to audio.  (there is a run
> on word toread that should be separated into 'to read.')
> Those of us who  do prefer braille and would rather read than listen
> have only audio as the option all to often. For me if I want to stay
> literate then I have to read braille and as I said in my email to Grumpy
> Dave I can't
> <spelling error> amagine my life with out braille.  (I guess you mean
> 'imagine my life without Braille.)

> <wrong use of the word loose> I have had braille most of my life and I
> would loose independence (I guess you mean lose independence.)

> <spelling error> ifI were to not know braille.   (You ran the words If
> and I together.)

> Reading braille is active reading but listening to audio or computer
> speech is just passive reading.

> I prefer to <spelling error> activly read but most of the time I can't
> because it's audio only.  (You misspelled actively.)

> <spelling errors and a run on sentence> I do rember haveing to cary
> volumes of braille books acrost campus at the blind school but I never
> gave it a though it was just what I hav to do it was no problem for me
> at all.   (You misspelled remember, having, across and probably mean the
> word had when you wrote hav. And I almost forgot, you used the word
> though instead of thought.)  (There should be a period after the word
> thought.)

> The campus at the Michigan school for the blind in Lansing Michigan
> covered a 4 city block area.  I tried college back in 1987-1988 and I
> could have
> <spelling error> donee much better if I had braille.  (You misspelled
> the word done.)

> <spelling errors> I had tapes from recording forthe blind but I had
> issues with the readers with pronouncations.   (you ran the words for
> and the together.  You misspelled pronunciation.)

> I remember taking test and what I heard during the test sounded nothing
> like what I heard on the tapes.

> If I would have had my books in braille I would have known the correct
> words and the tests would have made <spelling error> sinse.  (You
> misspelled the word sense.)

> <spelling error> If yur going to read on tape then you must be able to
> speak properly and say your words properly.   (You misspelled the word
> you're--or at least I think that's what you meant by writing the word yur.)

> <grammatical oddity> There was the issue of only tape at a time and
> having to send 2 copies of every book to recording for the blind to be
> recorded.  (I'm not quite sure, but I think you meant 'only one tape at
> a time.)

> <spelling error> Audio is usless if I don't know what you are saying.
> (You misspelled useless.)

> This is why we need braille.  Braille readers don't make a big deal of
> how many volumes a book is it just is.


> LONG STORY SHORT: BRIAN, YOU ARE A POOR EXAMPLE OF THE IDEA THAT BRAILLE
> READERS WRITE COHERENT AND GRAMATICALLY CORRECT E-MAIL MESSAGES.
> On 3/6/2020 3:01 PM, brian wrote:
>> aAmen if you don't braille than you are not truly literate. If you
>> doubt this then read emails from blind people who don't know braille
>> there spelling and gramar and punctuation leave alot to be desired.  I
>> have been there myself if I don't read then I to will fall in to trap
>> as well.  If you truly want to be literate then you just have toread
>> and not just listen to audio.  Those of us who  do prefer braille and
>> would rather read than listen have only audio as the option all to
>> often. For me if I want to stay literate then I have to read braille
>> and as I said in my email to Grumpy Dave I can't amagine my life with
>> out braille.  I have had braille most of my life and I would loose
>> independence ifI were to not know braille.  Reading braille is active
>> reading but listening to audio or computer speech is just passive
>> reading.  I prefer to activly read but most of the time I can't
>> because it's audio only.  I do rember haveing to cary volumes of
>> braille books acrost campus at the blind school but I never gave it a
>> though it was just what I hav to do it was no problem for me at all.
>> The campus at the Michigan school for the blind in Lansing Michigan
>> covered a 4 city block area.  I tried college back in 1987-1988 and I
>> could have donee much better if I had braille.  I had tapes from
>> recording forthe blind but I had issues with the readers with
>> pronouncations.  I remember taking test and what I heard during the
>> test sounded nothing like what I heard on the tapes.  If I would have
>> had my books in braille I would have known the correct words and the
>> tests would have made sinse.  If yur going to read on tape then you
>> must be able to speak properly and say your words properly.  There was
>> the issue of only tape at a time and having to send 2 copies of every
>> book to recording for the blind to be recorded.  Audio is usless if I
>> don't know what you are saying. This is why we need braille.  Braille
>> readers don't make a big deal of how many volumes a book is it just is.

>> Brian Sackrider

>> On 3/6/2020 7:26 AM, chris judge wrote:
>>> This is true. There is a huge difference between not learning braille
>>> if you've lost your site later in life. The unfortunate fact is that
>>> even people who are blind since birth are not learning braille at the
>>> rate they were when I was a kid 50 years ago. If you are blind since
>>> birth and you don't learn braille you miss out on basic literacy. How
>>> do you learn proper spelling, grammar, punctuation and such if you
>>> don't learn braile. If you have had site you already understand these
>>> things so knowing braille isn't as paramount.

>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of
>>> Victor
>>> Sent: March 6, 2020 12:42 AM
>>> To: main@techtalk.groups.io
>>> Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

>>> Hello everyone:

>>> I would like to point out that many blind people lose their eyesight
>>> later in life and they find it too difficult to learn braille. It is
>>> much easier for them to access information by listening to audio.
>>> It’s hard enough for them to get over losing their eyesight and live
>>> without seeing their loved ones or other things ever again. The last
>>> thing they want is to learn a new skill that they may find just too
>>> difficult.

>>> After obtaining my iPhone, I attended a users group where are the
>>> people taught each other to use iOS devices. While at the group one
>>> day, one of the group leaders brought a focus 40 refreshable braille
>>> display for everyone to examine. I was the only blind person in the
>>> room interested in touching the device because I knew braille and I
>>> owned a previous generation of that device. It was not discussed, but
>>> I knew that they were not interested because most of them had lost
>>> their eyesight later in life. I suspect that they found it much
>>> easier to listen to audio than reading braille. Plus, most of them
>>> had learned how to access information using their iPhones. I’m sure
>>> they found it much easier to whip out their iPhones and listen to
>>> their books, podcasts, scan documents and do everything else we can
>>> do with our iPhones. I realize that not everyone owns a smart phone
>>> because they have not found a way to obtain one. I also realize that
>>> not everyone is into these types of gadgets. However, many blind
>>> people have discovered how great these gadgets are and how useful
>>> they can be in helping them become more independent. For many of us,
>>> that is the route we have chosen.

>>> In any case, don’t be too surprised if you meet a blind person who is
>>> not interested in learning braille. Don’t be too hard on those
>>> people. Maybe they just prefer to do what is easier.

>>> I am so glad that refreshable braille displays exist now. I am also
>>> glad that low cost refreshable braille displays are being developed.
>>> I definitely don’t miss the days of carrying bulky braille books to
>>> and from my classes. I do not miss the days of trying to look up
>>> words in the dictionary and dealing with a whole bookshelf of braille
>>> books. No thank you! I do not miss my five volume braille New Testament.

>>> If I did not already on a refreshable braille display, I would
>>> definitely look into obtaining the orbit braille reader or the
>>> braille me.


>>> Anyhow, these are just my rambling opinions.

>>> Victor Sent from my iPhone

>>>> On Mar 5, 2020, at 7:40 PM, brian <bsackrider55@...> wrote:

>>>>     Thanks Grumpy Dave for your explination.  I would be willing to
>>>> pay a few dollars to get braille. I am not saying that I should get
>>>> for free but not to have the option is my complaint.  My local
>>>> liberary use to provide braille for 10 cents per page.   I was also
>>>> told that if I provided the paper they would braille what I wanted.
>>>> They required 67 weight paper which I can get at Staples.  All to
>>>> often we are forced to except only audio as the only format that is
>>>> available. Braille will always be my prefered format because I
>>>> prefer to read for myself instead of just listen.  You say that you
>>>> hate braille but you can use it well I feel the same about audio.
>>>> Why do we have to be locked in to just one format?  How many people
>>>> would rather read than listen?  Blind or sighted. People who prefer
>>>> to read than should be commended instead of being kind of bashed for
>>>> it.  If not many blind people request braille than it should be no
>>>> trouble to provide it. Braille is not that dificult to produce once
>>>> you have the equipment.  my liberary had no trouble all they needed
>>>> was files in microsoft word and the paper and they were good to go.
>>>> I use to get my weekly meterials for my church all in grade 2
>>>> braille. It was really great to finally be an active participant in
>>>> the service instead just a pasive listener.  To be able to read
>>>> along with everyone else the verses and hyms and classes lessons is
>>>> a great feeling you just can't discribe the independence that it
>>>> givesyou.  It's kind of like having access to dvs you can finally
>>>> know what is going on when there is all of that dead air.  I was
>>>> able to read infront of the church and be active in bible study and
>>>> even lead the groop all using braille.  I do use braille menus when
>>>> ever possible even if I don't really need it just to let them see
>>>> that somone is acually using it.  Braille has given me a very full
>>>> life and I don't know whear my life would be with out braille.  I
>>>> feel that every blind person who is able to read braille should
>>>> learn it.  I do understand that there are blind people who have
>>>> medical conditions that prevents them from being able to read
>>>> braille.  For them they have no choice but to use audio but I do
>>>> have the choice I just don't like being limited to just audio only
>>>> and not braille.  You hate braille and I hate audio.  a good example
>>>> of when I wish that I had braille instead of a file was when I
>>>> requested my local newspaper to be accessable.  my lions club
>>>> purchassed a sara reading machine for me there was no braille manual
>>>> but there was a print manual.  I had to go to the help file on the
>>>> machine and try to find what I wanted.  When I called the paper
>>>> office they asked what files my machine could read.  If I had a
>>>> braille manual I could have just looked it up while on the phone and
>>>> gave them the answer.  I had to call back after I went to the help
>>>> file and found it.  This is very time concuming I can look up
>>>> somthing much faster in braille than any other format.  I am not
>>>> saying that I can do it as quick as a sighted person can with print
>>>> but for me it's the fastest way for me to get the job done.  When I
>>>> was a kid I attended the Michigan school the blind in Lansing and we
>>>> had to learn braille and all of our books were in braille.  There
>>>> was no I don't want to learn it you had to.  I will say that I can
>>>> certainly listen much faster than I can read but when it comes to
>>>> looking up somthing braille is faster hands down.  I have been blind
>>>> since birth and thats all I ever knew was braille. It's like the
>>>> sighted grew up with print.  I wanted to learn the opticon at the
>>>> rehab center but they would not let me because they said that I was
>>>> not fast enough.  I felt that I was learning and making progress and
>>>> I should had the right to continue but they said no. If somone
>>>> really wants to learn a new skil then they should beallowed to do
>>>> so.  If I am determind to learn somthing that then I will even
>>>> though it might take more time then the teacher would like.  I guess
>>>> that modavation means nothing.  If somone reallly wants to learn
>>>> braille so what ifit takes several month to do so they should not be
>>>> told no you can't continue.  If companies had the equipment to
>>>> produce braille they could charge me for the cost of the paper to
>>>> get braille manuals or catalogs.

>>>>> On 3/5/2020 9:26 PM, Dave wrote:
>>>>> Hello Brian,


>>>>> I have nothing against Braille other than the hassle it is to create
>>>>> it, such as a Manual in Braille.


>>>>> I've been blind for a long time now, and there were many times when I
>>>>> would have Kissed the Feet of anyone who gave me a manual in Audio
>>>>> format.  many times have I had to just Wing it, learning by Guess and
>>>>> by Golly.  Once Computers became a Tool for the Blind, Guessing was
>>>>> not always the best thing to do, as guessing wrong could ruin your
>>>>> day in a Big way.  Still can.


>>>>> but, Brian, I have no Beef with Braille.   To produce it is just
>>>>> not an
>>>>> easy task.  And I would guess that most manufacturers of items for
>>>>> the blind, may not want to hire another Staff member to do nothing
>>>>> but print out Manuals in Braille.


>>>>> Yes, it all sounds good, until the costs of doing such a thing is
>>>>> considered.


>>>>> These days, I do expect a Manual at least in a PDF format, if not an
>>>>> Audio file.  And if I own my own Braille Printer, I can then print
>>>>> out the PDF file.


>>>>> Although, I can't afford one of those printers, so I do without.


>>>>> However,  I could run the Audio file through an Audio to Text
>>>>> converter, and then print that file out in Braille.


>>>>> When I get nothing but an On Line Manual, where I need to go On Line
>>>>> to read the thing.  I am Thankful for at least that much, but I
>>>>> always look to see if I can just download the manual so I don't need
>>>>> to be going On Line so much.


>>>>> Call it my personal Taste.


>>>>> I would think most who are Blind have learned over and over again to
>>>>> look for Work Arounds for doing many things in Life.


>>>>> You like Braille, and while I do use it, I Hate it.  So a Braille
>>>>> Manual would be a waste of resources to send me one.


>>>>> You Love it, and can use it well.  So, when the Company doesn't send
>>>>> a manual in Braille, but has sent you one in PDF, or even Audio, if
>>>>> you want a manual in Braille, the Work around is to convert that
>>>>> Audio or
>>>>> PDF file into Braille.   And if you are like me, and can't afford a
>>>>> Braille Printer, there are Services that will take your Manual file
>>>>> and make you a manual in Braille.


>>>>> it may cost you a few dollars, which again is all part of the Life of
>>>>> someone who is Blind.  In the past, I have hired Readers to read
>>>>> Manuals on Tape.  Paid them $10 for every hour of Recorded material.


>>>>> I've paid people to read my Mail.  This was before smart Phones had
>>>>> built in Cameras and OCR programs.   I paid them $10 an hour too. this
>>>>> was back in the 1980's and 90's.


>>>>> I haven't had to hire anyone for about 20 years now


>>>>> And Dare I bring up the Quality of Manuals?  So often, regardless of
>>>>> what Format it comes in, the information in the thing is totally Nuts!
>>>>> It doesn't make Sense, and you can't tell if it is a Translation of
>>>>> something in Chinese to English, or from Chinese to Spanish and then
>>>>> Russian, and then to English etc.


>>>>> And some manuals that come in English  are so poorly written, lack
>>>>> helpful information and seem to be missing a great deal of actual
>>>>> instructional information and are next to useless in any format.


>>>>> Grumpy Dave



















> --
> They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
> They ask: "How Happy are You?"
> I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


>

--
Ann K. Parsons
Portal Tutoring
EMAIL:  akp@...
Author of The Demmies: http://www.dldbooks.com/annparsons/
Portal Tutoring web site:  http://www.portaltutoring.info
Skype: Putertutor

"All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost."




-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


locked Re: warning if you doing business

Ron Canazzi
 

Hi Evan,

for sir rebuttal: I also didn't want to get into a big argument over this issue.  What ever gets you through the night is all right with me (John Lennon.)  However, it was your original rigidity that prompted my response. 

On 3/7/2020 11:43 AM, Evan Reese wrote:
At the risk of getting into that long debate I said I didn’t want to get into, I will add something I think I should have mentioned in my original response to Ron.
When I said that the process of reading print and braille is the same, it would have bolstered my argument to add there that the area of the brain for processing braille is in the visual cortex,same as for reading print in sighted people. At least that is true for the totally blind, which is what the studies I’ve heard about have focused on.  That seems unlikely to be a coincidence.
So yes, I would say that it is perfectly reasonable to call what people do with braille reading. More reasonable at least than the process of listening to someone, or something in the case of a computer, reading to you.
Evan
 
 
Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2020 12:37 AM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business
 
Hi Evan,

Well this analysis while tightly argued, is like a biblical literalist that represents a false dialectic by only examining terminologies and factoids that support their own belief structure.

One falsehood of your argument is in semantics Since the perception of reading has been from time immemorial the use of one's eyes and printed material to intake facts derived by, thought of and/or written down by others. If so, then how is it that Braille can be thought of as the exact equivalent of print when it in fact is not.  Not only is it not the same as a standard 26 character alphabet, but it also uses a different sense--that of the sense of touch to extract the ideas from the materials.

In a very strict sense of the syntactical world and using at least in part, your own rigid interpretation of 'reading' actually is, then you as a Braille reader really aren't reading in the classic sense of the word either.

That's why I believe that words serve only a function of communicating basic ideas and that there must be flexibility, discourse, investigation and relatively speaking a scientific type analysis of each and every issue for true knowledge to be obtained.

Once again, if the importance of what is known as reading is that we communicate ideas, then the mechanics as to what is defined as reading should be secondary to how the ideas are being transferred.

On 3/6/2020 9:06 PM, Evan Reese wrote:
Well, I would say that listening to an audio book is not the same as reading it, either in braille or print.
To illustrate, if I tell you a story, would you say that you had read it? No. Now, what if I write down the story and read it to you, either in person or on the phone. Would you say that you had read it? I don’t think so.
Now, suppose I make a recording of me reading the story and send it to you. Would you say that you had read it? The only difference is that, instead of reading it to you live, I’m reading it on tape, as we used to say.
So no, listening to someone read a book is not the same thing as reading it oneself. You may still get the information, but you didn’t read it if you listened to someone else read it.
I don’t think a synthetic voice makes any difference. True, it doesn’t know what it’s saying, but you still have an intermediary between yourself and the actual text, you’re still listening to (in this case), a computer translate the actual text into words. So, even though it doesn’t comprehend what it is translating, it is still reading to you in the strictest sense. You are not reading when using a synthetic voice.
But language changes, definitions change over time. It may happen soon that people will say that they are actually reading when they are listening to a voice, any voice, whether human or synthetic, read to them. Many people already say that, so I think we’re on the way. I don’t care all that much. I’ve done it myself, said that I read a book when I actually listened to someone else read it. I don’t make a big deal out of it. But you asked for thoughts, and that’s what I actually believe, even if I speak off-handedly about reading audio books.
Evan
 
Sent: Friday, March 06, 2020 6:58 PM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business
 

I'd like to address this topic of literacy when talking about whether or not a person is able or not able to read Braille. I wrote a blog post about this a while ago as these were questions which I was considering and I'd like to share this post with you if you have an interest in reading it. I'm afraid that it really doesn't answer these questions and, in fact, may raise a few additional ones that some of us might not have considered. Here is the post.

 

Consuming Books: Reading Vs. Listening

This morning I was browsing my Facebook timeline and stumbled on a post from one of my friends who posed a very interesting question. The question has to do with the wording we use to convey how we consume audio books. My friend pointed out that she’s noticing a trend, both with blind and sighted readers, where they will use the verb “listen” instead of “read”, as in “I just finished listening to that book” as opposed to “I just finished reading that book”, as if consuming a book via audio isn’t quite the same as reading it.

First, I’ll provide a bit of background into my own life as an avid reader. I learned how to read Braille when I was around four and how to write it not much later than that. I’ve always found reading Braille to be very easy and I’ve been reading books using Braille for about as long as I can remember. I remember the enjoyment I always felt going to my school library, browsing the many shelves of Braille books and being able to check out one or two books a week, which I always read quickly. Of course, there were many books, known as talking books, which were recorded on cassettes’ as well as on phonograph records. Talking books have been available for blind and visually impaired consumers to borrow since the 1930s, way before audio books became popular with sighted consumers. While I never hesitated to borrow a book on tape from my library, Braille was always my preferred medium and, when given a choice between Braille and audio, Braille was always what I chose.

As I’ve embraced new technologies the way I consume books has also changed. Nearly all of the books which I consume are done so audibly and not in Braille. There are several reasons for this and they don’t apply to all readers who are blind. First, most of the books which I want to read are just not available in Braille. While the National Library Service produces many Braille books there are simply more titles available in an audio format. Even then the amount of books produced by NLS, while I greatly appreciate the work that they do, is a drop in the bucket compared to the amount of titles available from other suppliers. Bookshare, another specialized library for people with print disabilities, offers over half a million books and that number continues to increase. Learning Ally is another specialized library which I’ve used for over 35 years, offers around 80,000 human-narrated titles. Of course, mainstream book suppliers such as the Kindle store offer millions of books, with more constantly being added. These specialized and mainstream suppliers offer a much greater selection of books than what I am able to borrow from my local NLS affiliate.

Some readers will no doubt want to remind me of the fact that we do have Braille display technology, which will work both with my computer as well as with my phone. This is certainly true and a Braille display would certainly allow me to read books from any of these suppliers using the same Braille code that I enjoyed using with books printed on paper. However, there are reasons which, for me, make this an impractical solution.

First, Braille display technology, while readily available for many devices, is often costly. As an example, Freedom Scientific’s most inexpensive Braille display, the Focus 14 Blue, costs $1295.00. At this time spending over a thousand dollars for a Braille display is just not something which I could easily do, considering it’s a device that I don’t truly need. However, even if a Braille display magically dropped onto my desk the fact is that I do a lot of reading either on the train or lying in bed. Reading with a Braille display on a moving train, no matter how portable, is just too awkward. When I’m lying in bed and wanted to read a book it’s just so much easier to do this with a small phone and would prove to be a bit less convenient if I added even a 14-cell display.

Anyway, back to the topic. My friend was pointing out that she has noticed that many people say they’ve listened to a book as opposed to reading it if the book was consumed in an audio medium, such as an audio CD or listening to it with synthetic speech using the Kindle app. However, this also makes me think of how we often use the word “read” when we actually have listened to the book.

This raises some interesting questions. When it comes to books, is it fair to consider it reading regardless of how it’s consumed? There are probably some sighted people who feel that the only way to truly read a book is to do so by processing the printed material visually. Of course, as blind people we know this is certainly not the case. All of us would agree that processing the information with our fingers would just as validly be considered reading as processing the information with our eyes and, in that instance, there is no controversy. However, the wording sometimes changes when we shift from print on a page to either a human narrator or a synthetic voice coming from a pair of speakers or from our portable phones and tablets. If I consumed a book by listening to it with an app such as Voice Dream Reader, am I wrong to say that I’ve read the book? Most blind people would say that I’m not and I would tend to agree with them.

However, let’s say we have an individual who is blind who never learned how to read Braille. There are some valid reasons for why they might not have been taught how to read and write in Braille, such as having neuropathy in their fingers which would prevent them from being able to distinguish the dot patterns. In such a case, this blind individual would only be able to consume books in an audible format. Considering this, would we look at that blind person who didn’t know Braille and conclude, if only to ourselves, that this person was illiterate. We might not say that to their face in the course of normal conversation but do we consider a blind person who doesn’t know Braille to be illiterate? If the answer to that question is yes then can we say that this blind person, not knowing Braille, has “read” a book when it was consumed by listening. If we say no, then why is it acceptable for me to say that I’ve read a book and my hypothetical blind person could not say that, just because I can read Braille and he cannot.

Let’s take this a step further and consider a fully sighted person who, for one reason or another, never learned how to read print. There’s no doubt that we would conclude that this person would be considered illiterate. Saying so is not meant as an insult but, in this case, is indisputable; someone who can’t read is illiterate. My hypothetical blind person might not have the ability to learn Braille and the sighted person could, with proper training, learn how to read print but, until that individual chooses to take classes in how to read, we would all agree that he’s illiterate. Given that fact, would we tend to disagree with the illiterate sighted person if he told us that he “read” a particular book by consuming it in an audible medium? Wouldn’t we think, “No, you didn’t really read that book, you listened to it.” If this is the case, then why is it OK for me, as a blind person who knows Braille, to tell people that I may have read the same book by consuming it in the exact same way but yet fewer people would think of challenging my word choices.

Admittedly, this isn’t the most important topic which should concern us. I don’t think about it all that much and it certainly doesn’t keep me up at night. However, I think these issues are important as it has really forced me to think about what we mean when we speak of what it means to be literate.

 

As an aside, the person who brought up this topic is one of the proprietors of Speeddots, which sells various tactile screen protectors for your Apple iDevice. They also sell various Bluetooth accessories as well as rugged lightning cables with a life-time warranty.

So, how do you feel about this? For you, does listening to an audio book qualify as reading it? I’d love to hear your thoughts in the comments.

David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist
JAWS Certified, 2019

WWW.DavidGoldfield.org
On 3/6/2020 6:21 PM, Ron Canazzi wrote:
Now Brian,

I don't want to personalize this, but you say you're a good
Braille reader now: correct?  You say that people who use audio primarily aren't truly literate and you can tell by the way they write e-mails: is that what you're saying?  Well let me be your teacher and quote and correct your own mistakes that you have made in your lengthy reply.

<spelling error>    aAmen(I guess you are trying to say Amen to that or something similar--note the repetition of the first letter A.)

<grammatical clumsiness> if you don't braille than you are not truly literate. (I guess you mean: if you don't know/use/are competent in, Braille then you are not truly literate.)

<run on sentence> If you doubt this then read emails from blind people who don't know braille there spelling and (There should be a period after the word Braille.)

<spelling error> gramar and punctuation leave alot to be desired.  (In this sentence grammar and a lot are misspelled.)

<run on sentence> I have been there myself if I don't read then I to will fall in to trap as well.  (There should be a period after the word myself.)

If you truly want to be literate then you just have
<spelling error> toread and not just listen to audio.  (there is a run on word toread that should be separated into 'to read.')
Those of us who  do prefer braille and would rather read than listen have only audio as the option all to often. For me if I want to stay literate then I have to read braille and as I said in my email to Grumpy Dave I can't
<spelling error> amagine my life with out braille.  (I guess you mean 'imagine my life without Braille.)

<wrong use of the word loose> I have had braille most of my life and I would loose independence (I guess you mean lose independence.)

<spelling error> ifI were to not know braille.   (You ran the words If and I together.)

Reading braille is active reading but listening to audio or computer speech is just passive reading.

I prefer to <spelling error> activly read but most of the time I can't because it's audio only.  (You misspelled actively.)

<spelling errors and a run on sentence> I do rember haveing to cary volumes of braille books acrost campus at the blind school but I never gave it a though it was just what I hav to do it was no problem for me at all.   (You misspelled remember, having, across and probably mean the word had when you wrote hav. And I almost forgot, you used the word though instead of thought.)  (There should be a period after the word thought.)

The campus at the Michigan school for the blind in Lansing Michigan covered a 4 city block area.  I tried college back in 1987-1988 and I could have
<spelling error> donee much better if I had braille.  (You misspelled the word done.)

<spelling errors> I had tapes from recording forthe blind but I had issues with the readers with pronouncations.   (you ran the words for and the together.  You misspelled pronunciation.)

I remember taking test and what I heard during the test sounded nothing like what I heard on the tapes.

If I would have had my books in braille I would have known the correct words and the tests would have made <spelling error> sinse.  (You misspelled the word sense.)

<spelling error> If yur going to read on tape then you must be able to speak properly and say your words properly.   (You misspelled the word you're--or at least I think that's what you meant by writing the word yur.)

<grammatical oddity> There was the issue of only tape at a time and having to send 2 copies of every book to recording for the blind to be recorded.  (I'm not quite sure, but I think you meant 'only one tape at a time.)

<spelling error> Audio is usless if I don't know what you are saying. (You misspelled useless.)

This is why we need braille.  Braille readers don't make a big deal of how many volumes a book is it just is.


LONG STORY SHORT: BRIAN, YOU ARE A POOR EXAMPLE OF THE IDEA THAT BRAILLE READERS WRITE COHERENT AND GRAMATICALLY CORRECT E-MAIL MESSAGES.
On 3/6/2020 3:01 PM, brian wrote:
aAmen if you don't braille than you are not truly literate. If you doubt this then read emails from blind people who don't know braille there spelling and gramar and punctuation leave alot to be desired.  I have been there myself if I don't read then I to will fall in to trap as well.  If you truly want to be literate then you just have toread and not just listen to audio.  Those of us who  do prefer braille and would rather read than listen have only audio as the option all to often. For me if I want to stay literate then I have to read braille and as I said in my email to Grumpy Dave I can't amagine my life with out braille.  I have had braille most of my life and I would loose independence ifI were to not know braille.  Reading braille is active reading but listening to audio or computer speech is just passive reading.  I prefer to activly read but most of the time I can't because it's audio only.  I do rember haveing to cary volumes of braille books acrost campus at the blind school but I never gave it a though it was just what I hav to do it was no problem for me at all.  The campus at the Michigan school for the blind in Lansing Michigan covered a 4 city block area.  I tried college back in 1987-1988 and I could have donee much better if I had braille.  I had tapes from recording forthe blind but I had issues with the readers with pronouncations.  I remember taking test and what I heard during the test sounded nothing like what I heard on the tapes.  If I would have had my books in braille I would have known the correct words and the tests would have made sinse.  If yur going to read on tape then you must be able to speak properly and say your words properly.  There was the issue of only tape at a time and having to send 2 copies of every book to recording for the blind to be recorded.  Audio is usless if I don't know what you are saying. This is why we need braille.  Braille readers don't make a big deal of how many volumes a book is it just is.

Brian Sackrider

On 3/6/2020 7:26 AM, chris judge wrote:
This is true. There is a huge difference between not learning braille if you've lost your site later in life. The unfortunate fact is that even people who are blind since birth are not learning braille at the rate they were when I was a kid 50 years ago. If you are blind since birth and you don't learn braille you miss out on basic literacy. How do you learn proper spelling, grammar, punctuation and such if you don't learn braile. If you have had site you already understand these things so knowing braille isn't as paramount.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io On Behalf Of Victor
Sent: March 6, 2020 12:42 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

Hello everyone:

I would like to point out that many blind people lose their eyesight later in life and they find it too difficult to learn braille. It is much easier for them to access information by listening to audio. It’s hard enough for them to get over losing their eyesight and live without seeing their loved ones or other things ever again. The last thing they want is to learn a new skill that they may find just too difficult.

After obtaining my iPhone, I attended a users group where are the people taught each other to use iOS devices. While at the group one day, one of the group leaders brought a focus 40 refreshable braille display for everyone to examine. I was the only blind person in the room interested in touching the device because I knew braille and I owned a previous generation of that device. It was not discussed, but I knew that they were not interested because most of them had lost their eyesight later in life. I suspect that they found it much easier to listen to audio than reading braille. Plus, most of them had learned how to access information using their iPhones. I’m sure they found it much easier to whip out their iPhones and listen to their books, podcasts, scan documents and do everything else we can do with our iPhones. I realize that not everyone owns a smart phone because they have not found a way to obtain one. I also realize that not everyone is into these types of gadgets. However, many blind people have discovered how great these gadgets are and how useful they can be in helping them become more independent. For many of us, that is the route we have chosen.

In any case, don’t be too surprised if you meet a blind person who is not interested in learning braille. Don’t be too hard on those people. Maybe they just prefer to do what is easier.

I am so glad that refreshable braille displays exist now. I am also glad that low cost refreshable braille displays are being developed. I definitely don’t miss the days of carrying bulky braille books to and from my classes. I do not miss the days of trying to look up words in the dictionary and dealing with a whole bookshelf of braille books. No thank you! I do not miss my five volume braille New Testament.

If I did not already on a refreshable braille display, I would definitely look into obtaining the orbit braille reader or the braille me.


Anyhow, these are just my rambling opinions.

Victor Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 5, 2020, at 7:40 PM, brian mailto:bsackrider55@... wrote:

    Thanks Grumpy Dave for your explination.  I would be willing to pay a few dollars to get braille. I am not saying that I should get for free but not to have the option is my complaint.  My local liberary use to provide braille for 10 cents per page.   I was also told that if I provided the paper they would braille what I wanted.  They required 67 weight paper which I can get at Staples.  All to often we are forced to except only audio as the only format that is available. Braille will always be my prefered format because I prefer to read for myself instead of just listen.  You say that you hate braille but you can use it well I feel the same about audio. Why do we have to be locked in to just one format?  How many people would rather read than listen?  Blind or sighted. People who prefer to read than should be commended instead of being kind of bashed for it.  If not many blind people request braille than it should be no trouble to provide it. Braille is not that dificult to produce once you have the equipment.  my liberary had no trouble all they needed was files in microsoft word and the paper and they were good to go.  I use to get my weekly meterials for my church all in grade 2 braille. It was really great to finally be an active participant in the service instead just a pasive listener.  To be able to read along with everyone else the verses and hyms and classes lessons is a great feeling you just can't discribe the independence that it givesyou.  It's kind of like having access to dvs you can finally know what is going on when there is all of that dead air.  I was able to read infront of the church and be active in bible study and even lead the groop all using braille.  I do use braille menus when ever possible even if I don't really need it just to let them see that somone is acually using it.  Braille has given me a very full life and I don't know whear my life would be with out braille.  I feel that every blind person who is able to read braille should learn it.  I do understand that there are blind people who have medical conditions that prevents them from being able to read braille.  For them they have no choice but to use audio but I do have the choice I just don't like being limited to just audio only and not braille.  You hate braille and I hate audio.  a good example of when I wish that I had braille instead of a file was when I requested my local newspaper to be accessable.  my lions club purchassed a sara reading machine for me there was no braille manual but there was a print manual.  I had to go to the help file on the machine and try to find what I wanted.  When I called the paper office they asked what files my machine could read.  If I had a braille manual I could have just looked it up while on the phone and gave them the answer.  I had to call back after I went to the help file and found it.  This is very time concuming I can look up somthing much faster in braille than any other format.  I am not saying that I can do it as quick as a sighted person can with print but for me it's the fastest way for me to get the job done.  When I was a kid I attended the Michigan school the blind in Lansing and we had to learn braille and all of our books were in braille.  There was no I don't want to learn it you had to.  I will say that I can certainly listen much faster than I can read but when it comes to looking up somthing braille is faster hands down.  I have been blind since birth and thats all I ever knew was braille. It's like the sighted grew up with print.  I wanted to learn the opticon at the rehab center but they would not let me because they said that I was not fast enough.  I felt that I was learning and making progress and I should had the right to continue but they said no. If somone really wants to learn a new skil then they should beallowed to do so.  If I am determind to learn somthing that then I will even though it might take more time then the teacher would like.  I guess that modavation means nothing.  If somone reallly wants to learn braille so what ifit takes several month to do so they should not be told no you can't continue.  If companies had the equipment to produce braille they could charge me for the cost of the paper to get braille manuals or catalogs.

On 3/5/2020 9:26 PM, Dave wrote:
Hello Brian,


I have nothing against Braille other than the hassle it is to create
it, such as a Manual in Braille.


I've been blind for a long time now, and there were many times when I
would have Kissed the Feet of anyone who gave me a manual in Audio
format.  many times have I had to just Wing it, learning by Guess and
by Golly.  Once Computers became a Tool for the Blind, Guessing was
not always the best thing to do, as guessing wrong could ruin your
day in a Big way.  Still can.


but, Brian, I have no Beef with Braille.   To produce it is just not an
easy task.  And I would guess that most manufacturers of items for
the blind, may not want to hire another Staff member to do nothing
but print out Manuals in Braille.


Yes, it all sounds good, until the costs of doing such a thing is
considered.


These days, I do expect a Manual at least in a PDF format, if not an
Audio file.  And if I own my own Braille Printer, I can then print
out the PDF file.


Although, I can't afford one of those printers, so I do without.


However,  I could run the Audio file through an Audio to Text
converter, and then print that file out in Braille.


When I get nothing but an On Line Manual, where I need to go On Line
to read the thing.  I am Thankful for at least that much, but I
always look to see if I can just download the manual so I don't need
to be going On Line so much.


Call it my personal Taste.


I would think most who are Blind have learned over and over again to
look for Work Arounds for doing many things in Life.


You like Braille, and while I do use it, I Hate it.  So a Braille
Manual would be a waste of resources to send me one.


You Love it, and can use it well.  So, when the Company doesn't send
a manual in Braille, but has sent you one in PDF, or even Audio, if
you want a manual in Braille, the Work around is to convert that Audio or
PDF file into Braille.   And if you are like me, and can't afford a
Braille Printer, there are Services that will take your Manual file
and make you a manual in Braille.


it may cost you a few dollars, which again is all part of the Life of
someone who is Blind.  In the past, I have hired Readers to read
Manuals on Tape.  Paid them $10 for every hour of Recorded material.


I've paid people to read my Mail.  This was before smart Phones had
built in Cameras and OCR programs.   I paid them $10 an hour too. this
was back in the 1980's and 90's.


I haven't had to hire anyone for about 20 years now


And Dare I bring up the Quality of Manuals?  So often, regardless of
what Format it comes in, the information in the thing is totally Nuts!
It doesn't make Sense, and you can't tell if it is a Translation of
something in Chinese to English, or from Chinese to Spanish and then
Russian, and then to English etc.


And some manuals that come in English  are so poorly written, lack
helpful information and seem to be missing a great deal of actual
instructional information and are next to useless in any format.


Grumpy Dave




















-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


locked Re: warning if you doing business

Ron Canazzi
 

Hi Group,

OK, I'm the culprit here!  I am the one who wrote the corrective post concerning Brian's original post. I used to be a tutor of sorts--instructing blind people in everything from Spanish language to computers.

...But you have to admit, when someone writes a post castigating everyone who doesn't have the desire to use Braille as their chief focus for acquiring information and then who at the same time--castigates those who post sloppy e-mails as the chief example of just why everybody should focus on Braille--the temptation was irresistible.

I wasn't aware of Brian's limitations and for that I am truly sorry.

On 3/7/2020 7:13 AM, Ann Parsons wrote:
Hi all,

No, he is not a troll.  He has learning differences.  Deal!

Ann P.


Original message:
I'm sorry, but this message is difficult to read. Is this a self-troll?
Cristóbal
-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of brian
Sent: Friday, March 6, 2020 12:01 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business
     aAmen if you don't braille than you are not truly literate. If you doubt this then read emails from blind people who don't know braille there spelling and gramar and punctuation leave alot to be desired.  I have been there myself if I don't read then I to will fall in to trap as well. If you truly want to be literate then you just have toread and not just listen to audio.  Those of us who  do prefer braille and would rather read than listen have only audio as the option all to often. For me if I want to stay literate then I have to read braille and as I said in my email to Grumpy Dave I can't amagine my life with out braille.  I have had braille most of my life and I would loose independence ifI were to not know braille.  Reading braille is active reading but listening to audio or computer speech is just passive reading.  I prefer to activly read but most of the time I can't because it's audio only.  I do rember haveing to cary volumes of braille books acrost campus at the blind school but I never gave it a though it was just what I hav to do it was no problem for me at all. The campus at the Michigan school for the blind in Lansing Michigan covered a 4 city block area.  I tried college back in 1987-1988 and I could have donee much better if I had braille. I had tapes from recording forthe blind but I had issues with the readers with pronouncations.  I remember taking test and what I heard during the test sounded nothing like what I heard on the tapes.  If I would have had my books in braille I would have known the correct words and the tests would have made sinse.  If yur going to read on tape then you must be able to speak properly and say your words properly.  There was the issue of only tape at a time and having to send 2 copies of every book to recording for the blind to be recorded.  Audio is usless if I don't know what you are saying. This is why we need braille. Braille readers don't make a big deal of how many volumes a book is it just is.
Brian Sackrider
On 3/6/2020 7:26 AM, chris judge wrote:
This is true. There is a huge difference between not learning braille if you've lost your site later in life. The unfortunate fact is that even people who are blind since birth are not learning braille at the rate they were when I was a kid 50 years ago. If you are blind since birth and you don't learn braille you miss out on basic literacy. How do you learn proper spelling, grammar, punctuation and such if you don't learn braile. If you have had site you already understand these things so knowing braille isn't as paramount.
-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of
Victor
Sent: March 6, 2020 12:42 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business
Hello everyone:
I would like to point out that many blind people lose their eyesight later in life and they find it too difficult to learn braille. It is much easier for them to access information by listening to audio. It’s hard enough for them to get over losing their eyesight and live without seeing their loved ones or other things ever again. The last thing they want is to learn a new skill that they may find just too difficult.
After obtaining my iPhone, I attended a users group where are the people taught each other to use iOS devices. While at the group one day, one of the group leaders brought a focus 40 refreshable braille display for everyone to examine. I was the only blind person in the room interested in touching the device because I knew braille and I owned a previous generation of that device. It was not discussed, but I knew that they were not interested because most of them had lost their eyesight later in life. I suspect that they found it much easier to listen to audio than reading braille. Plus, most of them had learned how to access information using their iPhones. I’m sure they found it much easier to whip out their iPhones and listen to their books, podcasts, scan documents and do everything else we can do with our iPhones. I realize that not everyone owns a smart phone because they have not found a way to obtain one. I also realize that not everyone is into these types of gadgets. However, many blind people have discovered how great these gadgets are and how useful they can be in helping them become more independent. For many of us, that is the route we have chosen.
In any case, don’t be too surprised if you meet a blind person who is not interested in learning braille. Don’t be too hard on those people. Maybe they just prefer to do what is easier.
I am so glad that refreshable braille displays exist now. I am also glad that low cost refreshable braille displays are being developed. I definitely don’t miss the days of carrying bulky braille books to and from my classes. I do not miss the days of trying to look up words in the dictionary and dealing with a whole bookshelf of braille books. No thank you! I do not miss my five volume braille New Testament.
If I did not already on a refreshable braille display, I would definitely look into obtaining the orbit braille reader or the braille me.

Anyhow, these are just my rambling opinions.
Victor Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 5, 2020, at 7:40 PM, brian <bsackrider55@...> wrote:
    Thanks Grumpy Dave for your explination.  I would be willing to pay a few dollars to get braille. I am not saying that I should get for free but not to have the option is my complaint.  My local liberary use to provide braille for 10 cents per page.   I was also told that if I provided the paper they would braille what I wanted.  They required 67 weight paper which I can get at Staples.  All to often we are forced to except only audio as the only format that is available. Braille will always be my prefered format because I prefer to read for myself instead of just listen.  You say that you hate braille but you can use it well I feel the same about audio.  Why do we have to be locked in to just one format?  How many people would rather read than listen?  Blind or sighted.  People who prefer to read than should be commended instead of being kind of bashed for it.  If not many blind people request braille than it should be no trouble to provide it. Braille is not that dificult to produce once you have the equipment.  my liberary had no trouble all they needed was files in microsoft word and the paper and they were good to go.  I use to get my weekly meterials for my church all in grade 2 braille. It was really great to finally be an active participant in the service instead just a pasive listener. To be able to read along with everyone else the verses and hyms and classes lessons is a great feeling you just can't discribe the independence that it givesyou.  It's kind of like having access to dvs you can finally know what is going on when there is all of that dead air.  I was able to read infront of the church and be active in bible study and even lead the groop all using braille.  I do use braille menus when ever possible even if I don't really need it just to let them see that somone is acually using it.  Braille has given me a very full life and I don't know whear my life would be with out braille.  I feel that every blind person who is able to read braille should learn it.  I do understand that there are blind people who have medical conditions that prevents them from being able to read braille.  For them they have no choice but to use audio but I do have the choice I just don't like being limited to just audio only and not braille.  You hate braille and I hate audio.  a good example of when I wish that I had braille instead of a file was when I requested my local newspaper to be accessable.  my lions club purchassed a sara reading machine for me there was no braille manual but there was a print manual.  I had to go to the help file on the machine and try to find what I wanted.  When I called the paper office they asked what files my machine could read.  If I had a braille manual I could have just looked it up while on the phone and gave them the answer.  I had to call back after I went to the help file and found it.  This is very time concuming I can look up somthing much faster in braille than any other format.  I am not saying that I can do it as quick as a sighted person can with print but for me it's the fastest way for me to get the job done.  When I was a kid I attended the Michigan school the blind in Lansing and we had to learn braille and all of our books were in braille. There was no I don't want to learn it you had to.  I will say that I can certainly listen much faster than I can read but when it comes to looking up somthing braille is faster hands down.  I have been blind since birth and thats all I ever knew was braille.  It's like the sighted grew up with print.  I wanted to learn the opticon at the rehab center but they would not let me because they said that I was not fast enough.  I felt that I was learning and making progress and I should had the right to continue but they said no. If somone really wants to learn a new skil then they should beallowed to do so.  If I am determind to learn somthing that then I will even though it might take more time then the teacher would like.  I guess that modavation means nothing.  If somone reallly wants to learn braille so what ifit takes several month to do so they should not be told no you can't continue.  If companies had the equipment to produce braille they could charge me for the cost of the paper to get braille manuals or catalogs.
On 3/5/2020 9:26 PM, Dave wrote:
Hello Brian,

I have nothing against Braille other than the hassle it is to create
it, such as a Manual in Braille.

I've been blind for a long time now, and there were many times when
I would have Kissed the Feet of anyone who gave me a manual in Audio
format.  many times have I had to just Wing it, learning by Guess
and by Golly.  Once Computers became a Tool for the Blind, Guessing
was not always the best thing to do, as guessing wrong could ruin
your day in a Big way.  Still can.

but, Brian, I have no Beef with Braille.   To produce it is just not an
easy task.  And I would guess that most manufacturers of items for
the blind, may not want to hire another Staff member to do nothing
but print out Manuals in Braille.

Yes, it all sounds good, until the costs of doing such a thing is
considered.

These days, I do expect a Manual at least in a PDF format, if not an
Audio file.  And if I own my own Braille Printer, I can then print
out the PDF file.

Although, I can't afford one of those printers, so I do without.

However,  I could run the Audio file through an Audio to Text
converter, and then print that file out in Braille.

When I get nothing but an On Line Manual, where I need to go On Line
to read the thing.  I am Thankful for at least that much, but I
always look to see if I can just download the manual so I don't need
to be going On Line so much.

Call it my personal Taste.

I would think most who are Blind have learned over and over again to
look for Work Arounds for doing many things in Life.

You like Braille, and while I do use it, I Hate it.  So a Braille
Manual would be a waste of resources to send me one.

You Love it, and can use it well. So, when the Company doesn't send
a manual in Braille, but has sent you one in PDF, or even Audio, if
you want a manual in Braille, the Work around is to convert that Audio or
PDF file into Braille.   And if you are like me, and can't afford a
Braille Printer, there are Services that will take your Manual file
and make you a manual in Braille.

it may cost you a few dollars, which again is all part of the Life
of someone who is Blind.  In the past, I have hired Readers to read
Manuals on Tape.  Paid them $10 for every hour of Recorded material.

I've paid people to read my Mail. This was before smart Phones had
built in Cameras and OCR programs.   I paid them $10 an hour too. this
was back in the 1980's and 90's.

I haven't had to hire anyone for about 20 years now

And Dare I bring up the Quality of Manuals?  So often, regardless of
what Format it comes in, the information in the thing is totally Nuts!
It doesn't make Sense, and you can't tell if it is a Translation of
something in Chinese to English, or from Chinese to Spanish and then
Russian, and then to English etc.

And some manuals that come in English  are so poorly written, lack
helpful information and seem to be missing a great deal of actual
instructional information and are next to useless in any format.

Grumpy Dave


















--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


locked Re: warning if you doing business

Gene
 

You are making unsupported statements.  How do you know Brian has learning differences?  How do you know he was coasted through school?  I'll offer an alternative explanation.  I'm not saying either are correct nor am I saying which one may or may not account for observed phenomena better.  But how do you know that some or many of these errors are not the result of someone feeling strongly about something and rushing to get the message written as quickly as possible?  If Brian is typing far above the speed at which he types more accurately, that may result in some of what is observed.  And, since I've seen messages from Brian that don't have all these mistakes, I'll consider my theory to be a possibly better explanation, since I don't know Brian's background and I think it is absurd to infer some sort of learning differences based on a few e-mails. 
 
But none of this, learning differences, spelling difficulties, a rush to type as quickly as you can to get your message out as fast as possible, none of these possibilities precludes the use of a spell checker. 
 
To this point, I have been writing as a list member.  I am now writing as the list owner.
 
This discussion has been very interesting and we know more about each other than we did, thus helping build community on the list.  But if the discussion becomes mostly one of how messages are written, I'll close it.  I realize that you and a few others may want to respond to what I and others have said but this part of the discussion shouldn't continue for more than a few more messages. 
 
Now, I'm writing as a list member again.
 
Brian, I would think it may be uncomfortable seeing your writing critiqued.  But keep these things in mind and you may find the experience useful:
My view is that if I expect someone to spend the time reading my messages and thinking about them, I have a certain responsibility to make them reasonably readable.  In your case, many people probably have to stop to review phrases where words are written together without spaces.  Because I've seen messages from you that are much better written, it appears to me that if you get emotional about a subject, you rush to write what you want as quickly as you can.  the result is errors that make your messages difficult to read, such as words written together with no spaces. 
 
As to spelling, in general I would just let that go.  But when you call a whole class of people illiterate, then don't use a spellchecker and have misspelled wordafter misspelled word, then, like it or not, you become part of the discussion.  Like it or not, literacy is partly sending a message without perhaps thirty or forty or more misspelled words.  And nothing precludes you from using a spellchecker.  As I said, in general I wouldn't comment on spelling, but it is inevitable that at least a few people will when you accuse people of being illiterate and don't use a spell checker, resulting in a great many misspellings.  It's as though I attended a cooking contest, made a speech before the event in which I said that with frozen dinners, no one knows how to cook anymore, then I burned the soup and my main dish. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2020 6:27 AM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

Hi all,

I could write a long rant about how I am treated when I correct
people's spelling publicly.  I have been called harsh and arrogant and
more.  I won't do that because it would be counter-productive.  I will
say, however, that taking advantage of someone who has made a public
mistake is, I feel, cruel.  it demeans those who perpetuate such crimes.

If you wish to correct Brian's writing, you might do so privately,
thereby giving him the dignity he deserves.  It isn't his fault that he
was coasted through school.  It isn't his fault that he may not have a
braille display or possess hard copy braille so that he could improve
his writing.

If you want to help, take it off-list!  Truly be of service and not
part of the problem.

Ann P.


Original message:
> Now Brian,

> I don't want to personalize this, but you say you're a good
> Braille reader now: correct?  You say that people who use audio
> primarily aren't truly literate and you can tell by the way they write
> e-mails: is that what you're saying?  Well let me be your teacher and
> quote and correct your own mistakes that you have made in your lengthy
> reply.

> <spelling error>    aAmen(I guess you are trying to say Amen to that or
> something similar--note the repetition of the first letter A.)

> <grammatical clumsiness> if you don't braille than you are not truly
> literate. (I guess you mean: if you don't know/use/are competent in,
> Braille then you are not truly literate.)

> <run on sentence> If you doubt this then read emails from blind people
> who don't know braille there spelling and (There should be a period
> after the word Braille.)

> <spelling error> gramar and punctuation leave alot to be desired.  (In
> this sentence grammar and a lot are misspelled.)

> <run on sentence> I have been there myself if I don't read then I to
> will fall in to trap as well.  (There should be a period after the word
> myself.)

> If you truly want to be literate then you just have
> <spelling error> toread and not just listen to audio.  (there is a run
> on word toread that should be separated into 'to read.')
> Those of us who  do prefer braille and would rather read than listen
> have only audio as the option all to often. For me if I want to stay
> literate then I have to read braille and as I said in my email to Grumpy
> Dave I can't
> <spelling error> amagine my life with out braille.  (I guess you mean
> 'imagine my life without Braille.)

> <wrong use of the word loose> I have had braille most of my life and I
> would loose independence (I guess you mean lose independence.)

> <spelling error> ifI were to not know braille.   (You ran the words If
> and I together.)

> Reading braille is active reading but listening to audio or computer
> speech is just passive reading.

> I prefer to <spelling error> activly read but most of the time I can't
> because it's audio only.  (You misspelled actively.)

> <spelling errors and a run on sentence> I do rember haveing to cary
> volumes of braille books acrost campus at the blind school but I never
> gave it a though it was just what I hav to do it was no problem for me
> at all.   (You misspelled remember, having, across and probably mean the
> word had when you wrote hav. And I almost forgot, you used the word
> though instead of thought.)  (There should be a period after the word
> thought.)

> The campus at the Michigan school for the blind in Lansing Michigan
> covered a 4 city block area.  I tried college back in 1987-1988 and I
> could have
> <spelling error> donee much better if I had braille.  (You misspelled
> the word done.)

> <spelling errors> I had tapes from recording forthe blind but I had
> issues with the readers with pronouncations.   (you ran the words for
> and the together.  You misspelled pronunciation.)

> I remember taking test and what I heard during the test sounded nothing
> like what I heard on the tapes.

> If I would have had my books in braille I would have known the correct
> words and the tests would have made <spelling error> sinse.  (You
> misspelled the word sense.)

> <spelling error> If yur going to read on tape then you must be able to
> speak properly and say your words properly.   (You misspelled the word
> you're--or at least I think that's what you meant by writing the word yur.)

> <grammatical oddity> There was the issue of only tape at a time and
> having to send 2 copies of every book to recording for the blind to be
> recorded.  (I'm not quite sure, but I think you meant 'only one tape at
> a time.)

> <spelling error> Audio is usless if I don't know what you are saying.
> (You misspelled useless.)

> This is why we need braille.  Braille readers don't make a big deal of
> how many volumes a book is it just is.


> LONG STORY SHORT: BRIAN, YOU ARE A POOR EXAMPLE OF THE IDEA THAT BRAILLE
> READERS WRITE COHERENT AND GRAMATICALLY CORRECT E-MAIL MESSAGES.
> On 3/6/2020 3:01 PM, brian wrote:
>> aAmen if you don't braille than you are not truly literate. If you
>> doubt this then read emails from blind people who don't know braille
>> there spelling and gramar and punctuation leave alot to be desired.  I
>> have been there myself if I don't read then I to will fall in to trap
>> as well.  If you truly want to be literate then you just have toread
>> and not just listen to audio.  Those of us who  do prefer braille and
>> would rather read than listen have only audio as the option all to
>> often. For me if I want to stay literate then I have to read braille
>> and as I said in my email to Grumpy Dave I can't amagine my life with
>> out braille.  I have had braille most of my life and I would loose
>> independence ifI were to not know braille.  Reading braille is active
>> reading but listening to audio or computer speech is just passive
>> reading.  I prefer to activly read but most of the time I can't
>> because it's audio only.  I do rember haveing to cary volumes of
>> braille books acrost campus at the blind school but I never gave it a
>> though it was just what I hav to do it was no problem for me at all.
>> The campus at the Michigan school for the blind in Lansing Michigan
>> covered a 4 city block area.  I tried college back in 1987-1988 and I
>> could have donee much better if I had braille.  I had tapes from
>> recording forthe blind but I had issues with the readers with
>> pronouncations.  I remember taking test and what I heard during the
>> test sounded nothing like what I heard on the tapes.  If I would have
>> had my books in braille I would have known the correct words and the
>> tests would have made sinse.  If yur going to read on tape then you
>> must be able to speak properly and say your words properly.  There was
>> the issue of only tape at a time and having to send 2 copies of every
>> book to recording for the blind to be recorded.  Audio is usless if I
>> don't know what you are saying. This is why we need braille.  Braille
>> readers don't make a big deal of how many volumes a book is it just is.

>> Brian Sackrider

>> On 3/6/2020 7:26 AM, chris judge wrote:
>>> This is true. There is a huge difference between not learning braille
>>> if you've lost your site later in life. The unfortunate fact is that
>>> even people who are blind since birth are not learning braille at the
>>> rate they were when I was a kid 50 years ago. If you are blind since
>>> birth and you don't learn braille you miss out on basic literacy. How
>>> do you learn proper spelling, grammar, punctuation and such if you
>>> don't learn braile. If you have had site you already understand these
>>> things so knowing braille isn't as paramount.

>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of
>>> Victor
>>> Sent: March 6, 2020 12:42 AM
>>> To: main@techtalk.groups.io
>>> Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

>>> Hello everyone:

>>> I would like to point out that many blind people lose their eyesight
>>> later in life and they find it too difficult to learn braille. It is
>>> much easier for them to access information by listening to audio.
>>> It’s hard enough for them to get over losing their eyesight and live
>>> without seeing their loved ones or other things ever again. The last
>>> thing they want is to learn a new skill that they may find just too
>>> difficult.

>>> After obtaining my iPhone, I attended a users group where are the
>>> people taught each other to use iOS devices. While at the group one
>>> day, one of the group leaders brought a focus 40 refreshable braille
>>> display for everyone to examine. I was the only blind person in the
>>> room interested in touching the device because I knew braille and I
>>> owned a previous generation of that device. It was not discussed, but
>>> I knew that they were not interested because most of them had lost
>>> their eyesight later in life. I suspect that they found it much
>>> easier to listen to audio than reading braille. Plus, most of them
>>> had learned how to access information using their iPhones. I’m sure
>>> they found it much easier to whip out their iPhones and listen to
>>> their books, podcasts, scan documents and do everything else we can
>>> do with our iPhones. I realize that not everyone owns a smart phone
>>> because they have not found a way to obtain one. I also realize that
>>> not everyone is into these types of gadgets. However, many blind
>>> people have discovered how great these gadgets are and how useful
>>> they can be in helping them become more independent. For many of us,
>>> that is the route we have chosen.

>>> In any case, don’t be too surprised if you meet a blind person who is
>>> not interested in learning braille. Don’t be too hard on those
>>> people. Maybe they just prefer to do what is easier.

>>> I am so glad that refreshable braille displays exist now. I am also
>>> glad that low cost refreshable braille displays are being developed.
>>> I definitely don’t miss the days of carrying bulky braille books to
>>> and from my classes. I do not miss the days of trying to look up
>>> words in the dictionary and dealing with a whole bookshelf of braille
>>> books. No thank you! I do not miss my five volume braille New Testament.

>>> If I did not already on a refreshable braille display, I would
>>> definitely look into obtaining the orbit braille reader or the
>>> braille me.


>>> Anyhow, these are just my rambling opinions.

>>> Victor Sent from my iPhone

>>>> On Mar 5, 2020, at 7:40 PM, brian <bsackrider55@...> wrote:

>>>>     Thanks Grumpy Dave for your explination.  I would be willing to
>>>> pay a few dollars to get braille. I am not saying that I should get
>>>> for free but not to have the option is my complaint.  My local
>>>> liberary use to provide braille for 10 cents per page.   I was also
>>>> told that if I provided the paper they would braille what I wanted.
>>>> They required 67 weight paper which I can get at Staples.  All to
>>>> often we are forced to except only audio as the only format that is
>>>> available. Braille will always be my prefered format because I
>>>> prefer to read for myself instead of just listen.  You say that you
>>>> hate braille but you can use it well I feel the same about audio.
>>>> Why do we have to be locked in to just one format?  How many people
>>>> would rather read than listen?  Blind or sighted. People who prefer
>>>> to read than should be commended instead of being kind of bashed for
>>>> it.  If not many blind people request braille than it should be no
>>>> trouble to provide it. Braille is not that dificult to produce once
>>>> you have the equipment.  my liberary had no trouble all they needed
>>>> was files in microsoft word and the paper and they were good to go.
>>>> I use to get my weekly meterials for my church all in grade 2
>>>> braille. It was really great to finally be an active participant in
>>>> the service instead just a pasive listener.  To be able to read
>>>> along with everyone else the verses and hyms and classes lessons is
>>>> a great feeling you just can't discribe the independence that it
>>>> givesyou.  It's kind of like having access to dvs you can finally
>>>> know what is going on when there is all of that dead air.  I was
>>>> able to read infront of the church and be active in bible study and
>>>> even lead the groop all using braille.  I do use braille menus when
>>>> ever possible even if I don't really need it just to let them see
>>>> that somone is acually using it.  Braille has given me a very full
>>>> life and I don't know whear my life would be with out braille.  I
>>>> feel that every blind person who is able to read braille should
>>>> learn it.  I do understand that there are blind people who have
>>>> medical conditions that prevents them from being able to read
>>>> braille.  For them they have no choice but to use audio but I do
>>>> have the choice I just don't like being limited to just audio only
>>>> and not braille.  You hate braille and I hate audio.  a good example
>>>> of when I wish that I had braille instead of a file was when I
>>>> requested my local newspaper to be accessable.  my lions club
>>>> purchassed a sara reading machine for me there was no braille manual
>>>> but there was a print manual.  I had to go to the help file on the
>>>> machine and try to find what I wanted.  When I called the paper
>>>> office they asked what files my machine could read.  If I had a
>>>> braille manual I could have just looked it up while on the phone and
>>>> gave them the answer.  I had to call back after I went to the help
>>>> file and found it.  This is very time concuming I can look up
>>>> somthing much faster in braille than any other format.  I am not
>>>> saying that I can do it as quick as a sighted person can with print
>>>> but for me it's the fastest way for me to get the job done.  When I
>>>> was a kid I attended the Michigan school the blind in Lansing and we
>>>> had to learn braille and all of our books were in braille.  There
>>>> was no I don't want to learn it you had to.  I will say that I can
>>>> certainly listen much faster than I can read but when it comes to
>>>> looking up somthing braille is faster hands down.  I have been blind
>>>> since birth and thats all I ever knew was braille. It's like the
>>>> sighted grew up with print.  I wanted to learn the opticon at the
>>>> rehab center but they would not let me because they said that I was
>>>> not fast enough.  I felt that I was learning and making progress and
>>>> I should had the right to continue but they said no. If somone
>>>> really wants to learn a new skil then they should beallowed to do
>>>> so.  If I am determind to learn somthing that then I will even
>>>> though it might take more time then the teacher would like.  I guess
>>>> that modavation means nothing.  If somone reallly wants to learn
>>>> braille so what ifit takes several month to do so they should not be
>>>> told no you can't continue.  If companies had the equipment to
>>>> produce braille they could charge me for the cost of the paper to
>>>> get braille manuals or catalogs.

>>>>> On 3/5/2020 9:26 PM, Dave wrote:
>>>>> Hello Brian,


>>>>> I have nothing against Braille other than the hassle it is to create
>>>>> it, such as a Manual in Braille.


>>>>> I've been blind for a long time now, and there were many times when I
>>>>> would have Kissed the Feet of anyone who gave me a manual in Audio
>>>>> format.  many times have I had to just Wing it, learning by Guess and
>>>>> by Golly.  Once Computers became a Tool for the Blind, Guessing was
>>>>> not always the best thing to do, as guessing wrong could ruin your
>>>>> day in a Big way.  Still can.


>>>>> but, Brian, I have no Beef with Braille.   To produce it is just
>>>>> not an
>>>>> easy task.  And I would guess that most manufacturers of items for
>>>>> the blind, may not want to hire another Staff member to do nothing
>>>>> but print out Manuals in Braille.


>>>>> Yes, it all sounds good, until the costs of doing such a thing is
>>>>> considered.


>>>>> These days, I do expect a Manual at least in a PDF format, if not an
>>>>> Audio file.  And if I own my own Braille Printer, I can then print
>>>>> out the PDF file.


>>>>> Although, I can't afford one of those printers, so I do without.


>>>>> However,  I could run the Audio file through an Audio to Text
>>>>> converter, and then print that file out in Braille.


>>>>> When I get nothing but an On Line Manual, where I need to go On Line
>>>>> to read the thing.  I am Thankful for at least that much, but I
>>>>> always look to see if I can just download the manual so I don't need
>>>>> to be going On Line so much.


>>>>> Call it my personal Taste.


>>>>> I would think most who are Blind have learned over and over again to
>>>>> look for Work Arounds for doing many things in Life.


>>>>> You like Braille, and while I do use it, I Hate it.  So a Braille
>>>>> Manual would be a waste of resources to send me one.


>>>>> You Love it, and can use it well.  So, when the Company doesn't send
>>>>> a manual in Braille, but has sent you one in PDF, or even Audio, if
>>>>> you want a manual in Braille, the Work around is to convert that
>>>>> Audio or
>>>>> PDF file into Braille.   And if you are like me, and can't afford a
>>>>> Braille Printer, there are Services that will take your Manual file
>>>>> and make you a manual in Braille.


>>>>> it may cost you a few dollars, which again is all part of the Life of
>>>>> someone who is Blind.  In the past, I have hired Readers to read
>>>>> Manuals on Tape.  Paid them $10 for every hour of Recorded material.


>>>>> I've paid people to read my Mail.  This was before smart Phones had
>>>>> built in Cameras and OCR programs.   I paid them $10 an hour too. this
>>>>> was back in the 1980's and 90's.


>>>>> I haven't had to hire anyone for about 20 years now


>>>>> And Dare I bring up the Quality of Manuals?  So often, regardless of
>>>>> what Format it comes in, the information in the thing is totally Nuts!
>>>>> It doesn't make Sense, and you can't tell if it is a Translation of
>>>>> something in Chinese to English, or from Chinese to Spanish and then
>>>>> Russian, and then to English etc.


>>>>> And some manuals that come in English  are so poorly written, lack
>>>>> helpful information and seem to be missing a great deal of actual
>>>>> instructional information and are next to useless in any format.


>>>>> Grumpy Dave



















> --
> They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
> They ask: "How Happy are You?"
> I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


>

--
Ann K. Parsons
Portal Tutoring
EMAIL:  akp@...
Author of The Demmies: http://www.dldbooks.com/annparsons/
Portal Tutoring web site:  http://www.portaltutoring.info
Skype: Putertutor

"All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost."




locked Re: warning if you doing business

Evan Reese
 

At the risk of getting into that long debate I said I didn’t want to get into, I will add something I think I should have mentioned in my original response to Ron.
When I said that the process of reading print and braille is the same, it would have bolstered my argument to add there that the area of the brain for processing braille is in the visual cortex,same as for reading print in sighted people. At least that is true for the totally blind, which is what the studies I’ve heard about have focused on.  That seems unlikely to be a coincidence.
So yes, I would say that it is perfectly reasonable to call what people do with braille reading. More reasonable at least than the process of listening to someone, or something in the case of a computer, reading to you.
Evan
 
 

Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2020 12:37 AM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business
 
Hi Evan,

Well this analysis while tightly argued, is like a biblical literalist that represents a false dialectic by only examining terminologies and factoids that support their own belief structure.

One falsehood of your argument is in semantics Since the perception of reading has been from time immemorial the use of one's eyes and printed material to intake facts derived by, thought of and/or written down by others. If so, then how is it that Braille can be thought of as the exact equivalent of print when it in fact is not.  Not only is it not the same as a standard 26 character alphabet, but it also uses a different sense--that of the sense of touch to extract the ideas from the materials.

In a very strict sense of the syntactical world and using at least in part, your own rigid interpretation of 'reading' actually is, then you as a Braille reader really aren't reading in the classic sense of the word either.

That's why I believe that words serve only a function of communicating basic ideas and that there must be flexibility, discourse, investigation and relatively speaking a scientific type analysis of each and every issue for true knowledge to be obtained.

Once again, if the importance of what is known as reading is that we communicate ideas, then the mechanics as to what is defined as reading should be secondary to how the ideas are being transferred.

On 3/6/2020 9:06 PM, Evan Reese wrote:
Well, I would say that listening to an audio book is not the same as reading it, either in braille or print.
To illustrate, if I tell you a story, would you say that you had read it? No. Now, what if I write down the story and read it to you, either in person or on the phone. Would you say that you had read it? I don’t think so.
Now, suppose I make a recording of me reading the story and send it to you. Would you say that you had read it? The only difference is that, instead of reading it to you live, I’m reading it on tape, as we used to say.
So no, listening to someone read a book is not the same thing as reading it oneself. You may still get the information, but you didn’t read it if you listened to someone else read it.
I don’t think a synthetic voice makes any difference. True, it doesn’t know what it’s saying, but you still have an intermediary between yourself and the actual text, you’re still listening to (in this case), a computer translate the actual text into words. So, even though it doesn’t comprehend what it is translating, it is still reading to you in the strictest sense. You are not reading when using a synthetic voice.
But language changes, definitions change over time. It may happen soon that people will say that they are actually reading when they are listening to a voice, any voice, whether human or synthetic, read to them. Many people already say that, so I think we’re on the way. I don’t care all that much. I’ve done it myself, said that I read a book when I actually listened to someone else read it. I don’t make a big deal out of it. But you asked for thoughts, and that’s what I actually believe, even if I speak off-handedly about reading audio books.
Evan
 
Sent: Friday, March 06, 2020 6:58 PM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business
 

I'd like to address this topic of literacy when talking about whether or not a person is able or not able to read Braille. I wrote a blog post about this a while ago as these were questions which I was considering and I'd like to share this post with you if you have an interest in reading it. I'm afraid that it really doesn't answer these questions and, in fact, may raise a few additional ones that some of us might not have considered. Here is the post.

 

Consuming Books: Reading Vs. Listening

This morning I was browsing my Facebook timeline and stumbled on a post from one of my friends who posed a very interesting question. The question has to do with the wording we use to convey how we consume audio books. My friend pointed out that she’s noticing a trend, both with blind and sighted readers, where they will use the verb “listen” instead of “read”, as in “I just finished listening to that book” as opposed to “I just finished reading that book”, as if consuming a book via audio isn’t quite the same as reading it.

First, I’ll provide a bit of background into my own life as an avid reader. I learned how to read Braille when I was around four and how to write it not much later than that. I’ve always found reading Braille to be very easy and I’ve been reading books using Braille for about as long as I can remember. I remember the enjoyment I always felt going to my school library, browsing the many shelves of Braille books and being able to check out one or two books a week, which I always read quickly. Of course, there were many books, known as talking books, which were recorded on cassettes’ as well as on phonograph records. Talking books have been available for blind and visually impaired consumers to borrow since the 1930s, way before audio books became popular with sighted consumers. While I never hesitated to borrow a book on tape from my library, Braille was always my preferred medium and, when given a choice between Braille and audio, Braille was always what I chose.

As I’ve embraced new technologies the way I consume books has also changed. Nearly all of the books which I consume are done so audibly and not in Braille. There are several reasons for this and they don’t apply to all readers who are blind. First, most of the books which I want to read are just not available in Braille. While the National Library Service produces many Braille books there are simply more titles available in an audio format. Even then the amount of books produced by NLS, while I greatly appreciate the work that they do, is a drop in the bucket compared to the amount of titles available from other suppliers. Bookshare, another specialized library for people with print disabilities, offers over half a million books and that number continues to increase. Learning Ally is another specialized library which I’ve used for over 35 years, offers around 80,000 human-narrated titles. Of course, mainstream book suppliers such as the Kindle store offer millions of books, with more constantly being added. These specialized and mainstream suppliers offer a much greater selection of books than what I am able to borrow from my local NLS affiliate.

Some readers will no doubt want to remind me of the fact that we do have Braille display technology, which will work both with my computer as well as with my phone. This is certainly true and a Braille display would certainly allow me to read books from any of these suppliers using the same Braille code that I enjoyed using with books printed on paper. However, there are reasons which, for me, make this an impractical solution.

First, Braille display technology, while readily available for many devices, is often costly. As an example, Freedom Scientific’s most inexpensive Braille display, the Focus 14 Blue, costs $1295.00. At this time spending over a thousand dollars for a Braille display is just not something which I could easily do, considering it’s a device that I don’t truly need. However, even if a Braille display magically dropped onto my desk the fact is that I do a lot of reading either on the train or lying in bed. Reading with a Braille display on a moving train, no matter how portable, is just too awkward. When I’m lying in bed and wanted to read a book it’s just so much easier to do this with a small phone and would prove to be a bit less convenient if I added even a 14-cell display.

Anyway, back to the topic. My friend was pointing out that she has noticed that many people say they’ve listened to a book as opposed to reading it if the book was consumed in an audio medium, such as an audio CD or listening to it with synthetic speech using the Kindle app. However, this also makes me think of how we often use the word “read” when we actually have listened to the book.

This raises some interesting questions. When it comes to books, is it fair to consider it reading regardless of how it’s consumed? There are probably some sighted people who feel that the only way to truly read a book is to do so by processing the printed material visually. Of course, as blind people we know this is certainly not the case. All of us would agree that processing the information with our fingers would just as validly be considered reading as processing the information with our eyes and, in that instance, there is no controversy. However, the wording sometimes changes when we shift from print on a page to either a human narrator or a synthetic voice coming from a pair of speakers or from our portable phones and tablets. If I consumed a book by listening to it with an app such as Voice Dream Reader, am I wrong to say that I’ve read the book? Most blind people would say that I’m not and I would tend to agree with them.

However, let’s say we have an individual who is blind who never learned how to read Braille. There are some valid reasons for why they might not have been taught how to read and write in Braille, such as having neuropathy in their fingers which would prevent them from being able to distinguish the dot patterns. In such a case, this blind individual would only be able to consume books in an audible format. Considering this, would we look at that blind person who didn’t know Braille and conclude, if only to ourselves, that this person was illiterate. We might not say that to their face in the course of normal conversation but do we consider a blind person who doesn’t know Braille to be illiterate? If the answer to that question is yes then can we say that this blind person, not knowing Braille, has “read” a book when it was consumed by listening. If we say no, then why is it acceptable for me to say that I’ve read a book and my hypothetical blind person could not say that, just because I can read Braille and he cannot.

Let’s take this a step further and consider a fully sighted person who, for one reason or another, never learned how to read print. There’s no doubt that we would conclude that this person would be considered illiterate. Saying so is not meant as an insult but, in this case, is indisputable; someone who can’t read is illiterate. My hypothetical blind person might not have the ability to learn Braille and the sighted person could, with proper training, learn how to read print but, until that individual chooses to take classes in how to read, we would all agree that he’s illiterate. Given that fact, would we tend to disagree with the illiterate sighted person if he told us that he “read” a particular book by consuming it in an audible medium? Wouldn’t we think, “No, you didn’t really read that book, you listened to it.” If this is the case, then why is it OK for me, as a blind person who knows Braille, to tell people that I may have read the same book by consuming it in the exact same way but yet fewer people would think of challenging my word choices.

Admittedly, this isn’t the most important topic which should concern us. I don’t think about it all that much and it certainly doesn’t keep me up at night. However, I think these issues are important as it has really forced me to think about what we mean when we speak of what it means to be literate.

 

As an aside, the person who brought up this topic is one of the proprietors of Speeddots, which sells various tactile screen protectors for your Apple iDevice. They also sell various Bluetooth accessories as well as rugged lightning cables with a life-time warranty.

So, how do you feel about this? For you, does listening to an audio book qualify as reading it? I’d love to hear your thoughts in the comments.

David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist
JAWS Certified, 2019

WWW.DavidGoldfield.org
On 3/6/2020 6:21 PM, Ron Canazzi wrote:
Now Brian,

I don't want to personalize this, but you say you're a good
Braille reader now: correct?  You say that people who use audio primarily aren't truly literate and you can tell by the way they write e-mails: is that what you're saying?  Well let me be your teacher and quote and correct your own mistakes that you have made in your lengthy reply.

<spelling error>    aAmen(I guess you are trying to say Amen to that or something similar--note the repetition of the first letter A.)

<grammatical clumsiness> if you don't braille than you are not truly literate. (I guess you mean: if you don't know/use/are competent in, Braille then you are not truly literate.)

<run on sentence> If you doubt this then read emails from blind people who don't know braille there spelling and (There should be a period after the word Braille.)

<spelling error> gramar and punctuation leave alot to be desired.  (In this sentence grammar and a lot are misspelled.)

<run on sentence> I have been there myself if I don't read then I to will fall in to trap as well.  (There should be a period after the word myself.)

If you truly want to be literate then you just have
<spelling error> toread and not just listen to audio.  (there is a run on word toread that should be separated into 'to read.')
Those of us who  do prefer braille and would rather read than listen have only audio as the option all to often. For me if I want to stay literate then I have to read braille and as I said in my email to Grumpy Dave I can't
<spelling error> amagine my life with out braille.  (I guess you mean 'imagine my life without Braille.)

<wrong use of the word loose> I have had braille most of my life and I would loose independence (I guess you mean lose independence.)

<spelling error> ifI were to not know braille.   (You ran the words If and I together.)

Reading braille is active reading but listening to audio or computer speech is just passive reading.

I prefer to <spelling error> activly read but most of the time I can't because it's audio only.  (You misspelled actively.)

<spelling errors and a run on sentence> I do rember haveing to cary volumes of braille books acrost campus at the blind school but I never gave it a though it was just what I hav to do it was no problem for me at all.   (You misspelled remember, having, across and probably mean the word had when you wrote hav. And I almost forgot, you used the word though instead of thought.)  (There should be a period after the word thought.)

The campus at the Michigan school for the blind in Lansing Michigan covered a 4 city block area.  I tried college back in 1987-1988 and I could have
<spelling error> donee much better if I had braille.  (You misspelled the word done.)

<spelling errors> I had tapes from recording forthe blind but I had issues with the readers with pronouncations.   (you ran the words for and the together.  You misspelled pronunciation.)

I remember taking test and what I heard during the test sounded nothing like what I heard on the tapes.

If I would have had my books in braille I would have known the correct words and the tests would have made <spelling error> sinse.  (You misspelled the word sense.)

<spelling error> If yur going to read on tape then you must be able to speak properly and say your words properly.   (You misspelled the word you're--or at least I think that's what you meant by writing the word yur.)

<grammatical oddity> There was the issue of only tape at a time and having to send 2 copies of every book to recording for the blind to be recorded.  (I'm not quite sure, but I think you meant 'only one tape at a time.)

<spelling error> Audio is usless if I don't know what you are saying. (You misspelled useless.)

This is why we need braille.  Braille readers don't make a big deal of how many volumes a book is it just is.


LONG STORY SHORT: BRIAN, YOU ARE A POOR EXAMPLE OF THE IDEA THAT BRAILLE READERS WRITE COHERENT AND GRAMATICALLY CORRECT E-MAIL MESSAGES.
On 3/6/2020 3:01 PM, brian wrote:
aAmen if you don't braille than you are not truly literate. If you doubt this then read emails from blind people who don't know braille there spelling and gramar and punctuation leave alot to be desired.  I have been there myself if I don't read then I to will fall in to trap as well.  If you truly want to be literate then you just have toread and not just listen to audio.  Those of us who  do prefer braille and would rather read than listen have only audio as the option all to often. For me if I want to stay literate then I have to read braille and as I said in my email to Grumpy Dave I can't amagine my life with out braille.  I have had braille most of my life and I would loose independence ifI were to not know braille.  Reading braille is active reading but listening to audio or computer speech is just passive reading.  I prefer to activly read but most of the time I can't because it's audio only.  I do rember haveing to cary volumes of braille books acrost campus at the blind school but I never gave it a though it was just what I hav to do it was no problem for me at all.  The campus at the Michigan school for the blind in Lansing Michigan covered a 4 city block area.  I tried college back in 1987-1988 and I could have donee much better if I had braille.  I had tapes from recording forthe blind but I had issues with the readers with pronouncations.  I remember taking test and what I heard during the test sounded nothing like what I heard on the tapes.  If I would have had my books in braille I would have known the correct words and the tests would have made sinse.  If yur going to read on tape then you must be able to speak properly and say your words properly.  There was the issue of only tape at a time and having to send 2 copies of every book to recording for the blind to be recorded.  Audio is usless if I don't know what you are saying. This is why we need braille.  Braille readers don't make a big deal of how many volumes a book is it just is.

Brian Sackrider

On 3/6/2020 7:26 AM, chris judge wrote:
This is true. There is a huge difference between not learning braille if you've lost your site later in life. The unfortunate fact is that even people who are blind since birth are not learning braille at the rate they were when I was a kid 50 years ago. If you are blind since birth and you don't learn braille you miss out on basic literacy. How do you learn proper spelling, grammar, punctuation and such if you don't learn braile. If you have had site you already understand these things so knowing braille isn't as paramount.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io On Behalf Of Victor
Sent: March 6, 2020 12:42 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

Hello everyone:

I would like to point out that many blind people lose their eyesight later in life and they find it too difficult to learn braille. It is much easier for them to access information by listening to audio. It’s hard enough for them to get over losing their eyesight and live without seeing their loved ones or other things ever again. The last thing they want is to learn a new skill that they may find just too difficult.

After obtaining my iPhone, I attended a users group where are the people taught each other to use iOS devices. While at the group one day, one of the group leaders brought a focus 40 refreshable braille display for everyone to examine. I was the only blind person in the room interested in touching the device because I knew braille and I owned a previous generation of that device. It was not discussed, but I knew that they were not interested because most of them had lost their eyesight later in life. I suspect that they found it much easier to listen to audio than reading braille. Plus, most of them had learned how to access information using their iPhones. I’m sure they found it much easier to whip out their iPhones and listen to their books, podcasts, scan documents and do everything else we can do with our iPhones. I realize that not everyone owns a smart phone because they have not found a way to obtain one. I also realize that not everyone is into these types of gadgets. However, many blind people have discovered how great these gadgets are and how useful they can be in helping them become more independent. For many of us, that is the route we have chosen.

In any case, don’t be too surprised if you meet a blind person who is not interested in learning braille. Don’t be too hard on those people. Maybe they just prefer to do what is easier.

I am so glad that refreshable braille displays exist now. I am also glad that low cost refreshable braille displays are being developed. I definitely don’t miss the days of carrying bulky braille books to and from my classes. I do not miss the days of trying to look up words in the dictionary and dealing with a whole bookshelf of braille books. No thank you! I do not miss my five volume braille New Testament.

If I did not already on a refreshable braille display, I would definitely look into obtaining the orbit braille reader or the braille me.


Anyhow, these are just my rambling opinions.

Victor Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 5, 2020, at 7:40 PM, brian mailto:bsackrider55@... wrote:

    Thanks Grumpy Dave for your explination.  I would be willing to pay a few dollars to get braille. I am not saying that I should get for free but not to have the option is my complaint.  My local liberary use to provide braille for 10 cents per page.   I was also told that if I provided the paper they would braille what I wanted.  They required 67 weight paper which I can get at Staples.  All to often we are forced to except only audio as the only format that is available. Braille will always be my prefered format because I prefer to read for myself instead of just listen.  You say that you hate braille but you can use it well I feel the same about audio. Why do we have to be locked in to just one format?  How many people would rather read than listen?  Blind or sighted. People who prefer to read than should be commended instead of being kind of bashed for it.  If not many blind people request braille than it should be no trouble to provide it. Braille is not that dificult to produce once you have the equipment.  my liberary had no trouble all they needed was files in microsoft word and the paper and they were good to go.  I use to get my weekly meterials for my church all in grade 2 braille. It was really great to finally be an active participant in the service instead just a pasive listener.  To be able to read along with everyone else the verses and hyms and classes lessons is a great feeling you just can't discribe the independence that it givesyou.  It's kind of like having access to dvs you can finally know what is going on when there is all of that dead air.  I was able to read infront of the church and be active in bible study and even lead the groop all using braille.  I do use braille menus when ever possible even if I don't really need it just to let them see that somone is acually using it.  Braille has given me a very full life and I don't know whear my life would be with out braille.  I feel that every blind person who is able to read braille should learn it.  I do understand that there are blind people who have medical conditions that prevents them from being able to read braille.  For them they have no choice but to use audio but I do have the choice I just don't like being limited to just audio only and not braille.  You hate braille and I hate audio.  a good example of when I wish that I had braille instead of a file was when I requested my local newspaper to be accessable.  my lions club purchassed a sara reading machine for me there was no braille manual but there was a print manual.  I had to go to the help file on the machine and try to find what I wanted.  When I called the paper office they asked what files my machine could read.  If I had a braille manual I could have just looked it up while on the phone and gave them the answer.  I had to call back after I went to the help file and found it.  This is very time concuming I can look up somthing much faster in braille than any other format.  I am not saying that I can do it as quick as a sighted person can with print but for me it's the fastest way for me to get the job done.  When I was a kid I attended the Michigan school the blind in Lansing and we had to learn braille and all of our books were in braille.  There was no I don't want to learn it you had to.  I will say that I can certainly listen much faster than I can read but when it comes to looking up somthing braille is faster hands down.  I have been blind since birth and thats all I ever knew was braille. It's like the sighted grew up with print.  I wanted to learn the opticon at the rehab center but they would not let me because they said that I was not fast enough.  I felt that I was learning and making progress and I should had the right to continue but they said no. If somone really wants to learn a new skil then they should beallowed to do so.  If I am determind to learn somthing that then I will even though it might take more time then the teacher would like.  I guess that modavation means nothing.  If somone reallly wants to learn braille so what ifit takes several month to do so they should not be told no you can't continue.  If companies had the equipment to produce braille they could charge me for the cost of the paper to get braille manuals or catalogs.

On 3/5/2020 9:26 PM, Dave wrote:
Hello Brian,


I have nothing against Braille other than the hassle it is to create
it, such as a Manual in Braille.


I've been blind for a long time now, and there were many times when I
would have Kissed the Feet of anyone who gave me a manual in Audio
format.  many times have I had to just Wing it, learning by Guess and
by Golly.  Once Computers became a Tool for the Blind, Guessing was
not always the best thing to do, as guessing wrong could ruin your
day in a Big way.  Still can.


but, Brian, I have no Beef with Braille.   To produce it is just not an
easy task.  And I would guess that most manufacturers of items for
the blind, may not want to hire another Staff member to do nothing
but print out Manuals in Braille.


Yes, it all sounds good, until the costs of doing such a thing is
considered.


These days, I do expect a Manual at least in a PDF format, if not an
Audio file.  And if I own my own Braille Printer, I can then print
out the PDF file.


Although, I can't afford one of those printers, so I do without.


However,  I could run the Audio file through an Audio to Text
converter, and then print that file out in Braille.


When I get nothing but an On Line Manual, where I need to go On Line
to read the thing.  I am Thankful for at least that much, but I
always look to see if I can just download the manual so I don't need
to be going On Line so much.


Call it my personal Taste.


I would think most who are Blind have learned over and over again to
look for Work Arounds for doing many things in Life.


You like Braille, and while I do use it, I Hate it.  So a Braille
Manual would be a waste of resources to send me one.


You Love it, and can use it well.  So, when the Company doesn't send
a manual in Braille, but has sent you one in PDF, or even Audio, if
you want a manual in Braille, the Work around is to convert that Audio or
PDF file into Braille.   And if you are like me, and can't afford a
Braille Printer, there are Services that will take your Manual file
and make you a manual in Braille.


it may cost you a few dollars, which again is all part of the Life of
someone who is Blind.  In the past, I have hired Readers to read
Manuals on Tape.  Paid them $10 for every hour of Recorded material.


I've paid people to read my Mail.  This was before smart Phones had
built in Cameras and OCR programs.   I paid them $10 an hour too. this
was back in the 1980's and 90's.


I haven't had to hire anyone for about 20 years now


And Dare I bring up the Quality of Manuals?  So often, regardless of
what Format it comes in, the information in the thing is totally Nuts!
It doesn't make Sense, and you can't tell if it is a Translation of
something in Chinese to English, or from Chinese to Spanish and then
Russian, and then to English etc.


And some manuals that come in English  are so poorly written, lack
helpful information and seem to be missing a great deal of actual
instructional information and are next to useless in any format.


Grumpy Dave




















-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


locked Re: warning if you doing business

Sugar Lopez
 

Good morning,

totally agree with you Victor.

When I was sighted in the 80’s and through my university years, sure I had plenty printed books for study and I also had several audio books so I can use them as well.

I enjoy reding with my eyes and I also enjoyed listening to my audio books immensely!

Hugs to all

Sugar

"A day without a friend is like a pot without a drop of honey."

-Winnie the Pooh

Please support me in my journey to another opportunity of life at:

https://www.gofundme.com/sugars-transplant-journey

🙏, 😘

Sugar

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Victor
Sent: Friday, March 6, 2020 10:01 PM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

 

Hello Jean and Ron:

 

It is definitely true that people have been listening to stories much longer than they have been reading them. For centuries, people listened to Scriptures read to them in their churches long before the Gutenberg press was invented.

 

Years ago when I received audiobooks from the national library service in the mail, sighted people asked me how they could get audiobooks so that they could listen to them while driving or doing other things. At the time, I told them I didn’t know how they could get such books. Shortly thereafter, I learned that one could get audiobooks from video stores. Shortly after that, listening to audiobooks caught on nationwide. I know a woman who said that audiobooks were a Life saver for her while driving across the country because she got tired of listening to the radio and her CDs.

 

While in college, I knew sighted students who told me that they wished they could listen to their textbooks sometimes so that they could rest their eyes. Listening to their textbooks would enable them to process the material and study while driving and them Make more productive use of their time.

 

I guess what I’m trying to say is that listening to audio is not all that unusual anymore. Maybe we are coming full circle back to ancient times in this way.

 

Victor

 



On Mar 6, 2020, at 9:37 PM, Ron Canazzi <aa2vm@...> wrote:

 Hi Evan,

Well this analysis while tightly argued, is like a biblical literalist that represents a false dialectic by only examining terminologies and factoids that support their own belief structure.

One falsehood of your argument is in semantics Since the perception of reading has been from time immemorial the use of one's eyes and printed material to intake facts derived by, thought of and/or written down by others. If so, then how is it that Braille can be thought of as the exact equivalent of print when it in fact is not.  Not only is it not the same as a standard 26 character alphabet, but it also uses a different sense--that of the sense of touch to extract the ideas from the materials.

In a very strict sense of the syntactical world and using at least in part, your own rigid interpretation of 'reading' actually is, then you as a Braille reader really aren't reading in the classic sense of the word either.

That's why I believe that words serve only a function of communicating basic ideas and that there must be flexibility, discourse, investigation and relatively speaking a scientific type analysis of each and every issue for true knowledge to be obtained.

Once again, if the importance of what is known as reading is that we communicate ideas, then the mechanics as to what is defined as reading should be secondary to how the ideas are being transferred.

On 3/6/2020 9:06 PM, Evan Reese wrote:

Well, I would say that listening to an audio book is not the same as reading it, either in braille or print.

To illustrate, if I tell you a story, would you say that you had read it? No. Now, what if I write down the story and read it to you, either in person or on the phone. Would you say that you had read it? I don’t think so.

Now, suppose I make a recording of me reading the story and send it to you. Would you say that you had read it? The only difference is that, instead of reading it to you live, I’m reading it on tape, as we used to say.

So no, listening to someone read a book is not the same thing as reading it oneself. You may still get the information, but you didn’t read it if you listened to someone else read it.

I don’t think a synthetic voice makes any difference. True, it doesn’t know what it’s saying, but you still have an intermediary between yourself and the actual text, you’re still listening to (in this case), a computer translate the actual text into words. So, even though it doesn’t comprehend what it is translating, it is still reading to you in the strictest sense. You are not reading when using a synthetic voice.

But language changes, definitions change over time. It may happen soon that people will say that they are actually reading when they are listening to a voice, any voice, whether human or synthetic, read to them. Many people already say that, so I think we’re on the way. I don’t care all that much. I’ve done it myself, said that I read a book when I actually listened to someone else read it. I don’t make a big deal out of it. But you asked for thoughts, and that’s what I actually believe, even if I speak off-handedly about reading audio books.

Evan

 

Sent: Friday, March 06, 2020 6:58 PM

Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

 

I'd like to address this topic of literacy when talking about whether or not a person is able or not able to read Braille. I wrote a blog post about this a while ago as these were questions which I was considering and I'd like to share this post with you if you have an interest in reading it. I'm afraid that it really doesn't answer these questions and, in fact, may raise a few additional ones that some of us might not have considered. Here is the post.

 

Consuming Books: Reading Vs. Listening

This morning I was browsing my Facebook timeline and stumbled on a post from one of my friends who posed a very interesting question. The question has to do with the wording we use to convey how we consume audio books. My friend pointed out that she’s noticing a trend, both with blind and sighted readers, where they will use the verb “listen” instead of “read”, as in “I just finished listening to that book” as opposed to “I just finished reading that book”, as if consuming a book via audio isn’t quite the same as reading it.

First, I’ll provide a bit of background into my own life as an avid reader. I learned how to read Braille when I was around four and how to write it not much later than that. I’ve always found reading Braille to be very easy and I’ve been reading books using Braille for about as long as I can remember. I remember the enjoyment I always felt going to my school library, browsing the many shelves of Braille books and being able to check out one or two books a week, which I always read quickly. Of course, there were many books, known as talking books, which were recorded on cassettes’ as well as on phonograph records. Talking books have been available for blind and visually impaired consumers to borrow since the 1930s, way before audio books became popular with sighted consumers. While I never hesitated to borrow a book on tape from my library, Braille was always my preferred medium and, when given a choice between Braille and audio, Braille was always what I chose.

As I’ve embraced new technologies the way I consume books has also changed. Nearly all of the books which I consume are done so audibly and not in Braille. There are several reasons for this and they don’t apply to all readers who are blind. First, most of the books which I want to read are just not available in Braille. While the National Library Service produces many Braille books there are simply more titles available in an audio format. Even then the amount of books produced by NLS, while I greatly appreciate the work that they do, is a drop in the bucket compared to the amount of titles available from other suppliers. Bookshare, another specialized library for people with print disabilities, offers over half a million books and that number continues to increase. Learning Ally is another specialized library which I’ve used for over 35 years, offers around 80,000 human-narrated titles. Of course, mainstream book suppliers such as the Kindle store offer millions of books, with more constantly being added. These specialized and mainstream suppliers offer a much greater selection of books than what I am able to borrow from my local NLS affiliate.

Some readers will no doubt want to remind me of the fact that we do have Braille display technology, which will work both with my computer as well as with my phone. This is certainly true and a Braille display would certainly allow me to read books from any of these suppliers using the same Braille code that I enjoyed using with books printed on paper. However, there are reasons which, for me, make this an impractical solution.

First, Braille display technology, while readily available for many devices, is often costly. As an example, Freedom Scientific’s most inexpensive Braille display, the Focus 14 Blue, costs $1295.00. At this time spending over a thousand dollars for a Braille display is just not something which I could easily do, considering it’s a device that I don’t truly need. However, even if a Braille display magically dropped onto my desk the fact is that I do a lot of reading either on the train or lying in bed. Reading with a Braille display on a moving train, no matter how portable, is just too awkward. When I’m lying in bed and wanted to read a book it’s just so much easier to do this with a small phone and would prove to be a bit less convenient if I added even a 14-cell display.

Anyway, back to the topic. My friend was pointing out that she has noticed that many people say they’ve listened to a book as opposed to reading it if the book was consumed in an audio medium, such as an audio CD or listening to it with synthetic speech using the Kindle app. However, this also makes me think of how we often use the word “read” when we actually have listened to the book.

This raises some interesting questions. When it comes to books, is it fair to consider it reading regardless of how it’s consumed? There are probably some sighted people who feel that the only way to truly read a book is to do so by processing the printed material visually. Of course, as blind people we know this is certainly not the case. All of us would agree that processing the information with our fingers would just as validly be considered reading as processing the information with our eyes and, in that instance, there is no controversy. However, the wording sometimes changes when we shift from print on a page to either a human narrator or a synthetic voice coming from a pair of speakers or from our portable phones and tablets. If I consumed a book by listening to it with an app such as Voice Dream Reader, am I wrong to say that I’ve read the book? Most blind people would say that I’m not and I would tend to agree with them.

However, let’s say we have an individual who is blind who never learned how to read Braille. There are some valid reasons for why they might not have been taught how to read and write in Braille, such as having neuropathy in their fingers which would prevent them from being able to distinguish the dot patterns. In such a case, this blind individual would only be able to consume books in an audible format. Considering this, would we look at that blind person who didn’t know Braille and conclude, if only to ourselves, that this person was illiterate. We might not say that to their face in the course of normal conversation but do we consider a blind person who doesn’t know Braille to be illiterate? If the answer to that question is yes then can we say that this blind person, not knowing Braille, has “read” a book when it was consumed by listening. If we say no, then why is it acceptable for me to say that I’ve read a book and my hypothetical blind person could not say that, just because I can read Braille and he cannot.

Let’s take this a step further and consider a fully sighted person who, for one reason or another, never learned how to read print. There’s no doubt that we would conclude that this person would be considered illiterate. Saying so is not meant as an insult but, in this case, is indisputable; someone who can’t read is illiterate. My hypothetical blind person might not have the ability to learn Braille and the sighted person could, with proper training, learn how to read print but, until that individual chooses to take classes in how to read, we would all agree that he’s illiterate. Given that fact, would we tend to disagree with the illiterate sighted person if he told us that he “read” a particular book by consuming it in an audible medium? Wouldn’t we think, “No, you didn’t really read that book, you listened to it.” If this is the case, then why is it OK for me, as a blind person who knows Braille, to tell people that I may have read the same book by consuming it in the exact same way but yet fewer people would think of challenging my word choices.

Admittedly, this isn’t the most important topic which should concern us. I don’t think about it all that much and it certainly doesn’t keep me up at night. However, I think these issues are important as it has really forced me to think about what we mean when we speak of what it means to be literate.

 

As an aside, the person who brought up this topic is one of the proprietors of Speed dots, which sells various tactile screen protectors for your Apple iDevice. They also sell various Bluetooth accessories as well as rugged lightning cables with a life-time warranty.

So, how do you feel about this? For you, does listening to an audio book qualify as reading it? I’d love to hear your thoughts in the comments.

David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist
JAWS Certified, 2019
 
WWW.DavidGoldfield.org

On 3/6/2020 6:21 PM, Ron Canazzi wrote:

Now Brian,

I don't want to personalize this, but you say you're a good
Braille reader now: correct?  You say that people who use audio primarily aren't truly literate and you can tell by the way they write e-mails: is that what you're saying?  Well let me be your teacher and quote and correct your own mistakes that you have made in your lengthy reply.

<spelling error>    a Amen(I guess you are trying to say Amen to that or something similar--note the repetition of the first letter A.)

<grammatical clumsiness> if you don't braille than you are not truly literate. (I guess you mean: if you don't know/use/are competent in, Braille then you are not truly literate.)

<run on sentence> If you doubt this then read emails from blind people who don't know braille there spelling and (There should be a period after the word Braille.)

<spelling error> grammar and punctuation leave a lot to be desired.  (In this sentence grammar and a lot are misspelled.)

<run on sentence> I have been there myself if I don't read then I to will fall in to trap as well.  (There should be a period after the word myself.)

If you truly want to be literate then you just have
<spelling error> to read and not just listen to audio.  (there is a run on word to read that should be separated into 'to read.')
Those of us who  do prefer braille and would rather read than listen have only audio as the option all too often. For me if I want to stay literate then I have to read braille and as I said in my email to Grumpy Dave I can't
<spelling error> imagine my life without braille.  (I guess you mean 'imagine my life without Braille.)

<wrong use of the word loose> I have had braille most of my life and I would lose independence (I guess you mean lose independence.)

<spelling error> if were to not know braille.   (You ran the words If and I together.)

Reading braille is active reading but listening to audio or computer speech is just passive reading.

I prefer to <spelling error> actively read but most of the time I can't because it's audio only.  (You misspelled actively.)

<spelling errors and a run on sentence> I do rember haveing to cary volumes of braille books acrost campus at the blind school but I never gave it a though it was just what I hav to do it was no problem for me at all.   (You misspelled remember, having, across and probably mean the word had when you wrote hav. And I almost forgot, you used the word though instead of thought.)  (There should be a period after the word thought.)

The campus at the Michigan school for the blind in Lansing Michigan covered a 4 city block area.  I tried college back in 1987-1988 and I could have
<spelling error> donee much better if I had braille.  (You misspelled the word done.)

<spelling errors> I had tapes from recording forthe blind but I had issues with the readers with pronouncations.   (you ran the words for and the together.  You misspelled pronunciation.)

I remember taking test and what I heard during the test sounded nothing like what I heard on the tapes.

If I would have had my books in braille I would have known the correct words and the tests would have made <spelling error> sinse.  (You misspelled the word sense.)

<spelling error> If yur going to read on tape then you must be able to speak properly and say your words properly.   (You misspelled the word you're--or at least I think that's what you meant by writing the word yur.)

<grammatical oddity> There was the issue of only tape at a time and having to send 2 copies of every book to recording for the blind to be recorded.  (I'm not quite sure, but I think you meant 'only one tape at a time.)

<spelling error> Audio is usless if I don't know what you are saying. (You misspelled useless.)

This is why we need braille.  Braille readers don't make a big deal of how many volumes a book is it just is.


LONG STORY SHORT: BRIAN, YOU ARE A POOR EXAMPLE OF THE IDEA THAT BRAILLE READERS WRITE COHERENT AND GRAMATICALLY CORRECT E-MAIL MESSAGES.
On 3/6/2020 3:01 PM, brian wrote:

aAmen if you don't braille than you are not truly literate. If you doubt this then read emails from blind people who don't know braille there spelling and gramar and punctuation leave alot to be desired.  I have been there myself if I don't read then I to will fall in to trap as well.  If you truly want to be literate then you just have toread and not just listen to audio.  Those of us who  do prefer braille and would rather read than listen have only audio as the option all to often. For me if I want to stay literate then I have to read braille and as I said in my email to Grumpy Dave I can't amagine my life with out braille.  I have had braille most of my life and I would loose independence ifI were to not know braille.  Reading braille is active reading but listening to audio or computer speech is just passive reading.  I prefer to activly read but most of the time I can't because it's audio only.  I do rember haveing to cary volumes of braille books acrost campus at the blind school but I never gave it a though it was just what I hav to do it was no problem for me at all.  The campus at the Michigan school for the blind in Lansing Michigan covered a 4 city block area.  I tried college back in 1987-1988 and I could have donee much better if I had braille.  I had tapes from recording forthe blind but I had issues with the readers with pronouncations.  I remember taking test and what I heard during the test sounded nothing like what I heard on the tapes.  If I would have had my books in braille I would have known the correct words and the tests would have made sinse.  If yur going to read on tape then you must be able to speak properly and say your words properly.  There was the issue of only tape at a time and having to send 2 copies of every book to recording for the blind to be recorded.  Audio is usless if I don't know what you are saying. This is why we need braille.  Braille readers don't make a big deal of how many volumes a book is it just is.

Brian Sackrider

On 3/6/2020 7:26 AM, chris judge wrote:

This is true. There is a huge difference between not learning braille if you've lost your site later in life. The unfortunate fact is that even people who are blind since birth are not learning braille at the rate they were when I was a kid 50 years ago. If you are blind since birth and you don't learn braille you miss out on basic literacy. How do you learn proper spelling, grammar, punctuation and such if you don't learn braile. If you have had site you already understand these things so knowing braille isn't as paramount.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io On Behalf Of Victor
Sent: March 6, 2020 12:42 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

Hello everyone:

I would like to point out that many blind people lose their eyesight later in life and they find it too difficult to learn braille. It is much easier for them to access information by listening to audio. It’s hard enough for them to get over losing their eyesight and live without seeing their loved ones or other things ever again. The last thing they want is to learn a new skill that they may find just too difficult.

After obtaining my iPhone, I attended a users group where are the people taught each other to use iOS devices. While at the group one day, one of the group leaders brought a focus 40 refreshable braille display for everyone to examine. I was the only blind person in the room interested in touching the device because I knew braille and I owned a previous generation of that device. It was not discussed, but I knew that they were not interested because most of them had lost their eyesight later in life. I suspect that they found it much easier to listen to audio than reading braille. Plus, most of them had learned how to access information using their iPhones. I’m sure they found it much easier to whip out their iPhones and listen to their books, podcasts, scan documents and do everything else we can do with our iPhones. I realize that not everyone owns a smart phone because they have not found a way to obtain one. I also realize that not everyone is into these types of gadgets. However, many blind people have discovered how great these gadgets are and how useful they can be in helping them become more independent. For many of us, that is the route we have chosen.

In any case, don’t be too surprised if you meet a blind person who is not interested in learning braille. Don’t be too hard on those people. Maybe they just prefer to do what is easier.

I am so glad that refreshable braille displays exist now. I am also glad that low cost refreshable braille displays are being developed. I definitely don’t miss the days of carrying bulky braille books to and from my classes. I do not miss the days of trying to look up words in the dictionary and dealing with a whole bookshelf of braille books. No thank you! I do not miss my five volume braille New Testament.

If I did not already on a refreshable braille display, I would definitely look into obtaining the orbit braille reader or the braille me.


Anyhow, these are just my rambling opinions.

Victor Sent from my iPhone


On Mar 5, 2020, at 7:40 PM, brian mailto:bsackrider55@... wrote:

    Thanks Grumpy Dave for your explination.  I would be willing to pay a few dollars to get braille. I am not saying that I should get for free but not to have the option is my complaint.  My local liberary use to provide braille for 10 cents per page.   I was also told that if I provided the paper they would braille what I wanted.  They required 67 weight paper which I can get at Staples.  All to often we are forced to except only audio as the only format that is available. Braille will always be my prefered format because I prefer to read for myself instead of just listen.  You say that you hate braille but you can use it well I feel the same about audio. Why do we have to be locked in to just one format?  How many people would rather read than listen?  Blind or sighted. People who prefer to read than should be commended instead of being kind of bashed for it.  If not many blind people request braille than it should be no trouble to provide it. Braille is not that dificult to produce once you have the equipment.  my liberary had no trouble all they needed was files in microsoft word and the paper and they were good to go.  I use to get my weekly meterials for my church all in grade 2 braille. It was really great to finally be an active participant in the service instead just a pasive listener.  To be able to read along with everyone else the verses and hyms and classes lessons is a great feeling you just can't discribe the independence that it givesyou.  It's kind of like having access to dvs you can finally know what is going on when there is all of that dead air.  I was able to read infront of the church and be active in bible study and even lead the groop all using braille.  I do use braille menus when ever possible even if I don't really need it just to let them see that somone is acually using it.  Braille has given me a very full life and I don't know whear my life would be with out braille.  I feel that every blind person who is able to read braille should learn it.  I do understand that there are blind people who have medical conditions that prevents them from being able to read braille.  For them they have no choice but to use audio but I do have the choice I just don't like being limited to just audio only and not braille.  You hate braille and I hate audio.  a good example of when I wish that I had braille instead of a file was when I requested my local newspaper to be accessable.  my lions club purchassed a sara reading machine for me there was no braille manual but there was a print manual.  I had to go to the help file on the machine and try to find what I wanted.  When I called the paper office they asked what files my machine could read.  If I had a braille manual I could have just looked it up while on the phone and gave them the answer.  I had to call back after I went to the help file and found it.  This is very time concuming I can look up somthing much faster in braille than any other format.  I am not saying that I can do it as quick as a sighted person can with print but for me it's the fastest way for me to get the job done.  When I was a kid I attended the Michigan school the blind in Lansing and we had to learn braille and all of our books were in braille.  There was no I don't want to learn it you had to.  I will say that I can certainly listen much faster than I can read but when it comes to looking up somthing braille is faster hands down.  I have been blind since birth and thats all I ever knew was braille. It's like the sighted grew up with print.  I wanted to learn the opticon at the rehab center but they would not let me because they said that I was not fast enough.  I felt that I was learning and making progress and I should had the right to continue but they said no. If somone really wants to learn a new skil then they should beallowed to do so.  If I am determind to learn somthing that then I will even though it might take more time then the teacher would like.  I guess that modavation means nothing.  If somone reallly wants to learn braille so what ifit takes several month to do so they should not be told no you can't continue.  If companies had the equipment to produce braille they could charge me for the cost of the paper to get braille manuals or catalogs.


On 3/5/2020 9:26 PM, Dave wrote:
Hello Brian,


I have nothing against Braille other than the hassle it is to create
it, such as a Manual in Braille.


I've been blind for a long time now, and there were many times when I
would have Kissed the Feet of anyone who gave me a manual in Audio
format.  many times have I had to just Wing it, learning by Guess and
by Golly.  Once Computers became a Tool for the Blind, Guessing was
not always the best thing to do, as guessing wrong could ruin your
day in a Big way.  Still can.


but, Brian, I have no Beef with Braille.   To produce it is just not an
easy task.  And I would guess that most manufacturers of items for
the blind, may not want to hire another Staff member to do nothing
but print out Manuals in Braille.


Yes, it all sounds good, until the costs of doing such a thing is
considered.


These days, I do expect a Manual at least in a PDF format, if not an
Audio file.  And if I own my own Braille Printer, I can then print
out the PDF file.


Although, I can't afford one of those printers, so I do without.


However,  I could run the Audio file through an Audio to Text
converter, and then print that file out in Braille.


When I get nothing but an On Line Manual, where I need to go On Line
to read the thing.  I am Thankful for at least that much, but I
always look to see if I can just download the manual so I don't need
to be going On Line so much.


Call it my personal Taste.


I would think most who are Blind have learned over and over again to
look for Work Arounds for doing many things in Life.


You like Braille, and while I do use it, I Hate it.  So a Braille
Manual would be a waste of resources to send me one.


You Love it, and can use it well.  So, when the Company doesn't send
a manual in Braille, but has sent you one in PDF, or even Audio, if
you want a manual in Braille, the Work around is to convert that Audio or
PDF file into Braille.   And if you are like me, and can't afford a
Braille Printer, there are Services that will take your Manual file
and make you a manual in Braille.


it may cost you a few dollars, which again is all part of the Life of
someone who is Blind.  In the past, I have hired Readers to read
Manuals on Tape.  Paid them $10 for every hour of Recorded material.


I've paid people to read my Mail.  This was before smart Phones had
built in Cameras and OCR programs.   I paid them $10 an hour too. this
was back in the 1980's and 90's.


I haven't had to hire anyone for about 20 years now


And Dare I bring up the Quality of Manuals?  So often, regardless of
what Format it comes in, the information in the thing is totally Nuts!
It doesn't make Sense, and you can't tell if it is a Translation of
something in Chinese to English, or from Chinese to Spanish and then
Russian, and then to English etc.


And some manuals that come in English  are so poorly written, lack
helpful information and seem to be missing a great deal of actual
instructional information and are next to useless in any format.


Grumpy Dave




 










 



-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


locked Re: warning if you doing business

Evan Reese
 

Well Ron, as I said in my original message, I really don’t care a whole lot about this issue, so I’m not going to get into a long debate. I will only say that, while braille is not the same as print, if it is not classical reading, it certainly must be a lot closer to it than listening to someone else reading, whether via print or braille. The reason is because reading braille, like print, is the translation of symbols on a page. You may be using touch instead of eyes, and there are contractions and such if you’re not reading Grade 1, but the process is the same.  You’re doing it yourself rather than getting the ideas through an intermediary such as listening to someone else doing the translation, whether it be a person or a computer.
Evan
 
 

Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2020 12:37 AM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business
 
Hi Evan,

Well this analysis while tightly argued, is like a biblical literalist that represents a false dialectic by only examining terminologies and factoids that support their own belief structure.

One falsehood of your argument is in semantics Since the perception of reading has been from time immemorial the use of one's eyes and printed material to intake facts derived by, thought of and/or written down by others. If so, then how is it that Braille can be thought of as the exact equivalent of print when it in fact is not.  Not only is it not the same as a standard 26 character alphabet, but it also uses a different sense--that of the sense of touch to extract the ideas from the materials.

In a very strict sense of the syntactical world and using at least in part, your own rigid interpretation of 'reading' actually is, then you as a Braille reader really aren't reading in the classic sense of the word either.

That's why I believe that words serve only a function of communicating basic ideas and that there must be flexibility, discourse, investigation and relatively speaking a scientific type analysis of each and every issue for true knowledge to be obtained.

Once again, if the importance of what is known as reading is that we communicate ideas, then the mechanics as to what is defined as reading should be secondary to how the ideas are being transferred.

On 3/6/2020 9:06 PM, Evan Reese wrote:
Well, I would say that listening to an audio book is not the same as reading it, either in braille or print.
To illustrate, if I tell you a story, would you say that you had read it? No. Now, what if I write down the story and read it to you, either in person or on the phone. Would you say that you had read it? I don’t think so.
Now, suppose I make a recording of me reading the story and send it to you. Would you say that you had read it? The only difference is that, instead of reading it to you live, I’m reading it on tape, as we used to say.
So no, listening to someone read a book is not the same thing as reading it oneself. You may still get the information, but you didn’t read it if you listened to someone else read it.
I don’t think a synthetic voice makes any difference. True, it doesn’t know what it’s saying, but you still have an intermediary between yourself and the actual text, you’re still listening to (in this case), a computer translate the actual text into words. So, even though it doesn’t comprehend what it is translating, it is still reading to you in the strictest sense. You are not reading when using a synthetic voice.
But language changes, definitions change over time. It may happen soon that people will say that they are actually reading when they are listening to a voice, any voice, whether human or synthetic, read to them. Many people already say that, so I think we’re on the way. I don’t care all that much. I’ve done it myself, said that I read a book when I actually listened to someone else read it. I don’t make a big deal out of it. But you asked for thoughts, and that’s what I actually believe, even if I speak off-handedly about reading audio books.
Evan
 
Sent: Friday, March 06, 2020 6:58 PM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business
 

I'd like to address this topic of literacy when talking about whether or not a person is able or not able to read Braille. I wrote a blog post about this a while ago as these were questions which I was considering and I'd like to share this post with you if you have an interest in reading it. I'm afraid that it really doesn't answer these questions and, in fact, may raise a few additional ones that some of us might not have considered. Here is the post.

 

Consuming Books: Reading Vs. Listening

This morning I was browsing my Facebook timeline and stumbled on a post from one of my friends who posed a very interesting question. The question has to do with the wording we use to convey how we consume audio books. My friend pointed out that she’s noticing a trend, both with blind and sighted readers, where they will use the verb “listen” instead of “read”, as in “I just finished listening to that book” as opposed to “I just finished reading that book”, as if consuming a book via audio isn’t quite the same as reading it.

First, I’ll provide a bit of background into my own life as an avid reader. I learned how to read Braille when I was around four and how to write it not much later than that. I’ve always found reading Braille to be very easy and I’ve been reading books using Braille for about as long as I can remember. I remember the enjoyment I always felt going to my school library, browsing the many shelves of Braille books and being able to check out one or two books a week, which I always read quickly. Of course, there were many books, known as talking books, which were recorded on cassettes’ as well as on phonograph records. Talking books have been available for blind and visually impaired consumers to borrow since the 1930s, way before audio books became popular with sighted consumers. While I never hesitated to borrow a book on tape from my library, Braille was always my preferred medium and, when given a choice between Braille and audio, Braille was always what I chose.

As I’ve embraced new technologies the way I consume books has also changed. Nearly all of the books which I consume are done so audibly and not in Braille. There are several reasons for this and they don’t apply to all readers who are blind. First, most of the books which I want to read are just not available in Braille. While the National Library Service produces many Braille books there are simply more titles available in an audio format. Even then the amount of books produced by NLS, while I greatly appreciate the work that they do, is a drop in the bucket compared to the amount of titles available from other suppliers. Bookshare, another specialized library for people with print disabilities, offers over half a million books and that number continues to increase. Learning Ally is another specialized library which I’ve used for over 35 years, offers around 80,000 human-narrated titles. Of course, mainstream book suppliers such as the Kindle store offer millions of books, with more constantly being added. These specialized and mainstream suppliers offer a much greater selection of books than what I am able to borrow from my local NLS affiliate.

Some readers will no doubt want to remind me of the fact that we do have Braille display technology, which will work both with my computer as well as with my phone. This is certainly true and a Braille display would certainly allow me to read books from any of these suppliers using the same Braille code that I enjoyed using with books printed on paper. However, there are reasons which, for me, make this an impractical solution.

First, Braille display technology, while readily available for many devices, is often costly. As an example, Freedom Scientific’s most inexpensive Braille display, the Focus 14 Blue, costs $1295.00. At this time spending over a thousand dollars for a Braille display is just not something which I could easily do, considering it’s a device that I don’t truly need. However, even if a Braille display magically dropped onto my desk the fact is that I do a lot of reading either on the train or lying in bed. Reading with a Braille display on a moving train, no matter how portable, is just too awkward. When I’m lying in bed and wanted to read a book it’s just so much easier to do this with a small phone and would prove to be a bit less convenient if I added even a 14-cell display.

Anyway, back to the topic. My friend was pointing out that she has noticed that many people say they’ve listened to a book as opposed to reading it if the book was consumed in an audio medium, such as an audio CD or listening to it with synthetic speech using the Kindle app. However, this also makes me think of how we often use the word “read” when we actually have listened to the book.

This raises some interesting questions. When it comes to books, is it fair to consider it reading regardless of how it’s consumed? There are probably some sighted people who feel that the only way to truly read a book is to do so by processing the printed material visually. Of course, as blind people we know this is certainly not the case. All of us would agree that processing the information with our fingers would just as validly be considered reading as processing the information with our eyes and, in that instance, there is no controversy. However, the wording sometimes changes when we shift from print on a page to either a human narrator or a synthetic voice coming from a pair of speakers or from our portable phones and tablets. If I consumed a book by listening to it with an app such as Voice Dream Reader, am I wrong to say that I’ve read the book? Most blind people would say that I’m not and I would tend to agree with them.

However, let’s say we have an individual who is blind who never learned how to read Braille. There are some valid reasons for why they might not have been taught how to read and write in Braille, such as having neuropathy in their fingers which would prevent them from being able to distinguish the dot patterns. In such a case, this blind individual would only be able to consume books in an audible format. Considering this, would we look at that blind person who didn’t know Braille and conclude, if only to ourselves, that this person was illiterate. We might not say that to their face in the course of normal conversation but do we consider a blind person who doesn’t know Braille to be illiterate? If the answer to that question is yes then can we say that this blind person, not knowing Braille, has “read” a book when it was consumed by listening. If we say no, then why is it acceptable for me to say that I’ve read a book and my hypothetical blind person could not say that, just because I can read Braille and he cannot.

Let’s take this a step further and consider a fully sighted person who, for one reason or another, never learned how to read print. There’s no doubt that we would conclude that this person would be considered illiterate. Saying so is not meant as an insult but, in this case, is indisputable; someone who can’t read is illiterate. My hypothetical blind person might not have the ability to learn Braille and the sighted person could, with proper training, learn how to read print but, until that individual chooses to take classes in how to read, we would all agree that he’s illiterate. Given that fact, would we tend to disagree with the illiterate sighted person if he told us that he “read” a particular book by consuming it in an audible medium? Wouldn’t we think, “No, you didn’t really read that book, you listened to it.” If this is the case, then why is it OK for me, as a blind person who knows Braille, to tell people that I may have read the same book by consuming it in the exact same way but yet fewer people would think of challenging my word choices.

Admittedly, this isn’t the most important topic which should concern us. I don’t think about it all that much and it certainly doesn’t keep me up at night. However, I think these issues are important as it has really forced me to think about what we mean when we speak of what it means to be literate.

 

As an aside, the person who brought up this topic is one of the proprietors of Speeddots, which sells various tactile screen protectors for your Apple iDevice. They also sell various Bluetooth accessories as well as rugged lightning cables with a life-time warranty.

So, how do you feel about this? For you, does listening to an audio book qualify as reading it? I’d love to hear your thoughts in the comments.

David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist
JAWS Certified, 2019

WWW.DavidGoldfield.org
On 3/6/2020 6:21 PM, Ron Canazzi wrote:
Now Brian,

I don't want to personalize this, but you say you're a good
Braille reader now: correct?  You say that people who use audio primarily aren't truly literate and you can tell by the way they write e-mails: is that what you're saying?  Well let me be your teacher and quote and correct your own mistakes that you have made in your lengthy reply.

<spelling error>    aAmen(I guess you are trying to say Amen to that or something similar--note the repetition of the first letter A.)

<grammatical clumsiness> if you don't braille than you are not truly literate. (I guess you mean: if you don't know/use/are competent in, Braille then you are not truly literate.)

<run on sentence> If you doubt this then read emails from blind people who don't know braille there spelling and (There should be a period after the word Braille.)

<spelling error> gramar and punctuation leave alot to be desired.  (In this sentence grammar and a lot are misspelled.)

<run on sentence> I have been there myself if I don't read then I to will fall in to trap as well.  (There should be a period after the word myself.)

If you truly want to be literate then you just have
<spelling error> toread and not just listen to audio.  (there is a run on word toread that should be separated into 'to read.')
Those of us who  do prefer braille and would rather read than listen have only audio as the option all to often. For me if I want to stay literate then I have to read braille and as I said in my email to Grumpy Dave I can't
<spelling error> amagine my life with out braille.  (I guess you mean 'imagine my life without Braille.)

<wrong use of the word loose> I have had braille most of my life and I would loose independence (I guess you mean lose independence.)

<spelling error> ifI were to not know braille.   (You ran the words If and I together.)

Reading braille is active reading but listening to audio or computer speech is just passive reading.

I prefer to <spelling error> activly read but most of the time I can't because it's audio only.  (You misspelled actively.)

<spelling errors and a run on sentence> I do rember haveing to cary volumes of braille books acrost campus at the blind school but I never gave it a though it was just what I hav to do it was no problem for me at all.   (You misspelled remember, having, across and probably mean the word had when you wrote hav. And I almost forgot, you used the word though instead of thought.)  (There should be a period after the word thought.)

The campus at the Michigan school for the blind in Lansing Michigan covered a 4 city block area.  I tried college back in 1987-1988 and I could have
<spelling error> donee much better if I had braille.  (You misspelled the word done.)

<spelling errors> I had tapes from recording forthe blind but I had issues with the readers with pronouncations.   (you ran the words for and the together.  You misspelled pronunciation.)

I remember taking test and what I heard during the test sounded nothing like what I heard on the tapes.

If I would have had my books in braille I would have known the correct words and the tests would have made <spelling error> sinse.  (You misspelled the word sense.)

<spelling error> If yur going to read on tape then you must be able to speak properly and say your words properly.   (You misspelled the word you're--or at least I think that's what you meant by writing the word yur.)

<grammatical oddity> There was the issue of only tape at a time and having to send 2 copies of every book to recording for the blind to be recorded.  (I'm not quite sure, but I think you meant 'only one tape at a time.)

<spelling error> Audio is usless if I don't know what you are saying. (You misspelled useless.)

This is why we need braille.  Braille readers don't make a big deal of how many volumes a book is it just is.


LONG STORY SHORT: BRIAN, YOU ARE A POOR EXAMPLE OF THE IDEA THAT BRAILLE READERS WRITE COHERENT AND GRAMATICALLY CORRECT E-MAIL MESSAGES.
On 3/6/2020 3:01 PM, brian wrote:
aAmen if you don't braille than you are not truly literate. If you doubt this then read emails from blind people who don't know braille there spelling and gramar and punctuation leave alot to be desired.  I have been there myself if I don't read then I to will fall in to trap as well.  If you truly want to be literate then you just have toread and not just listen to audio.  Those of us who  do prefer braille and would rather read than listen have only audio as the option all to often. For me if I want to stay literate then I have to read braille and as I said in my email to Grumpy Dave I can't amagine my life with out braille.  I have had braille most of my life and I would loose independence ifI were to not know braille.  Reading braille is active reading but listening to audio or computer speech is just passive reading.  I prefer to activly read but most of the time I can't because it's audio only.  I do rember haveing to cary volumes of braille books acrost campus at the blind school but I never gave it a though it was just what I hav to do it was no problem for me at all.  The campus at the Michigan school for the blind in Lansing Michigan covered a 4 city block area.  I tried college back in 1987-1988 and I could have donee much better if I had braille.  I had tapes from recording forthe blind but I had issues with the readers with pronouncations.  I remember taking test and what I heard during the test sounded nothing like what I heard on the tapes.  If I would have had my books in braille I would have known the correct words and the tests would have made sinse.  If yur going to read on tape then you must be able to speak properly and say your words properly.  There was the issue of only tape at a time and having to send 2 copies of every book to recording for the blind to be recorded.  Audio is usless if I don't know what you are saying. This is why we need braille.  Braille readers don't make a big deal of how many volumes a book is it just is.

Brian Sackrider

On 3/6/2020 7:26 AM, chris judge wrote:
This is true. There is a huge difference between not learning braille if you've lost your site later in life. The unfortunate fact is that even people who are blind since birth are not learning braille at the rate they were when I was a kid 50 years ago. If you are blind since birth and you don't learn braille you miss out on basic literacy. How do you learn proper spelling, grammar, punctuation and such if you don't learn braile. If you have had site you already understand these things so knowing braille isn't as paramount.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io On Behalf Of Victor
Sent: March 6, 2020 12:42 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] warning if you doing business

Hello everyone:

I would like to point out that many blind people lose their eyesight later in life and they find it too difficult to learn braille. It is much easier for them to access information by listening to audio. It’s hard enough for them to get over losing their eyesight and live without seeing their loved ones or other things ever again. The last thing they want is to learn a new skill that they may find just too difficult.

After obtaining my iPhone, I attended a users group where are the people taught each other to use iOS devices. While at the group one day, one of the group leaders brought a focus 40 refreshable braille display for everyone to examine. I was the only blind person in the room interested in touching the device because I knew braille and I owned a previous generation of that device. It was not discussed, but I knew that they were not interested because most of them had lost their eyesight later in life. I suspect that they found it much easier to listen to audio than reading braille. Plus, most of them had learned how to access information using their iPhones. I’m sure they found it much easier to whip out their iPhones and listen to their books, podcasts, scan documents and do everything else we can do with our iPhones. I realize that not everyone owns a smart phone because they have not found a way to obtain one. I also realize that not everyone is into these types of gadgets. However, many blind people have discovered how great these gadgets are and how useful they can be in helping them become more independent. For many of us, that is the route we have chosen.

In any case, don’t be too surprised if you meet a blind person who is not interested in learning braille. Don’t be too hard on those people. Maybe they just prefer to do what is easier.

I am so glad that refreshable braille displays exist now. I am also glad that low cost refreshable braille displays are being developed. I definitely don’t miss the days of carrying bulky braille books to and from my classes. I do not miss the days of trying to look up words in the dictionary and dealing with a whole bookshelf of braille books. No thank you! I do not miss my five volume braille New Testament.

If I did not already on a refreshable braille display, I would definitely look into obtaining the orbit braille reader or the braille me.


Anyhow, these are just my rambling opinions.

Victor Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 5, 2020, at 7:40 PM, brian mailto:bsackrider55@... wrote:

    Thanks Grumpy Dave for your explination.  I would be willing to pay a few dollars to get braille. I am not saying that I should get for free but not to have the option is my complaint.  My local liberary use to provide braille for 10 cents per page.   I was also told that if I provided the paper they would braille what I wanted.  They required 67 weight paper which I can get at Staples.  All to often we are forced to except only audio as the only format that is available. Braille will always be my prefered format because I prefer to read for myself instead of just listen.  You say that you hate braille but you can use it well I feel the same about audio. Why do we have to be locked in to just one format?  How many people would rather read than listen?  Blind or sighted. People who prefer to read than should be commended instead of being kind of bashed for it.  If not many blind people request braille than it should be no trouble to provide it. Braille is not that dificult to produce once you have the equipment.  my liberary had no trouble all they needed was files in microsoft word and the paper and they were good to go.  I use to get my weekly meterials for my church all in grade 2 braille. It was really great to finally be an active participant in the service instead just a pasive listener.  To be able to read along with everyone else the verses and hyms and classes lessons is a great feeling you just can't discribe the independence that it givesyou.  It's kind of like having access to dvs you can finally know what is going on when there is all of that dead air.  I was able to read infront of the church and be active in bible study and even lead the groop all using braille.  I do use braille menus when ever possible even if I don't really need it just to let them see that somone is acually using it.  Braille has given me a very full life and I don't know whear my life would be with out braille.  I feel that every blind person who is able to read braille should learn it.  I do understand that there are blind people who have medical conditions that prevents them from being able to read braille.  For them they have no choice but to use audio but I do have the choice I just don't like being limited to just audio only and not braille.  You hate braille and I hate audio.  a good example of when I wish that I had braille instead of a file was when I requested my local newspaper to be accessable.  my lions club purchassed a sara reading machine for me there was no braille manual but there was a print manual.  I had to go to the help file on the machine and try to find what I wanted.  When I called the paper office they asked what files my machine could read.  If I had a braille manual I could have just looked it up while on the phone and gave them the answer.  I had to call back after I went to the help file and found it.  This is very time concuming I can look up somthing much faster in braille than any other format.  I am not saying that I can do it as quick as a sighted person can with print but for me it's the fastest way for me to get the job done.  When I was a kid I attended the Michigan school the blind in Lansing and we had to learn braille and all of our books were in braille.  There was no I don't want to learn it you had to.  I will say that I can certainly listen much faster than I can read but when it comes to looking up somthing braille is faster hands down.  I have been blind since birth and thats all I ever knew was braille. It's like the sighted grew up with print.  I wanted to learn the opticon at the rehab center but they would not let me because they said that I was not fast enough.  I felt that I was learning and making progress and I should had the right to continue but they said no. If somone really wants to learn a new skil then they should beallowed to do so.  If I am determind to learn somthing that then I will even though it might take more time then the teacher would like.  I guess that modavation means nothing.  If somone reallly wants to learn braille so what ifit takes several month to do so they should not be told no you can't continue.  If companies had the equipment to produce braille they could charge me for the cost of the paper to get braille manuals or catalogs.

On 3/5/2020 9:26 PM, Dave wrote:
Hello Brian,


I have nothing against Braille other than the hassle it is to create
it, such as a Manual in Braille.


I've been blind for a long time now, and there were many times when I
would have Kissed the Feet of anyone who gave me a manual in Audio
format.  many times have I had to just Wing it, learning by Guess and
by Golly.  Once Computers became a Tool for the Blind, Guessing was
not always the best thing to do, as guessing wrong could ruin your
day in a Big way.  Still can.


but, Brian, I have no Beef with Braille.   To produce it is just not an
easy task.  And I would guess that most manufacturers of items for
the blind, may not want to hire another Staff member to do nothing
but print out Manuals in Braille.


Yes, it all sounds good, until the costs of doing such a thing is
considered.


These days, I do expect a Manual at least in a PDF format, if not an
Audio file.  And if I own my own Braille Printer, I can then print
out the PDF file.


Although, I can't afford one of those printers, so I do without.


However,  I could run the Audio file through an Audio to Text
converter, and then print that file out in Braille.


When I get nothing but an On Line Manual, where I need to go On Line
to read the thing.  I am Thankful for at least that much, but I
always look to see if I can just download the manual so I don't need
to be going On Line so much.


Call it my personal Taste.


I would think most who are Blind have learned over and over again to
look for Work Arounds for doing many things in Life.


You like Braille, and while I do use it, I Hate it.  So a Braille
Manual would be a waste of resources to send me one.


You Love it, and can use it well.  So, when the Company doesn't send
a manual in Braille, but has sent you one in PDF, or even Audio, if
you want a manual in Braille, the Work around is to convert that Audio or
PDF file into Braille.   And if you are like me, and can't afford a
Braille Printer, there are Services that will take your Manual file
and make you a manual in Braille.


it may cost you a few dollars, which again is all part of the Life of
someone who is Blind.  In the past, I have hired Readers to read
Manuals on Tape.  Paid them $10 for every hour of Recorded material.


I've paid people to read my Mail.  This was before smart Phones had
built in Cameras and OCR programs.   I paid them $10 an hour too. this
was back in the 1980's and 90's.


I haven't had to hire anyone for about 20 years now


And Dare I bring up the Quality of Manuals?  So often, regardless of
what Format it comes in, the information in the thing is totally Nuts!
It doesn't make Sense, and you can't tell if it is a Translation of
something in Chinese to English, or from Chinese to Spanish and then
Russian, and then to English etc.


And some manuals that come in English  are so poorly written, lack
helpful information and seem to be missing a great deal of actual
instructional information and are next to useless in any format.


Grumpy Dave




















-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Re: Accessible mainstream electronic games?

Josh Kennedy
 

On xbox, fighting games such as killer instinct are accessible. Also the latest madden nfl 2020 is mostly accessible with talking menus and other accessibility features to help blind people play. And if you have an iPhone, iPad or iPod touch there are quite a few accessible games on there. Also windows computers there are a good many accessible games on there including Jim Kitchen's games. 

Josh