Date   

Re: Oddity with TechTalk message format - Reported to Group Owner

Carolyn Arnold
 

I think it is a groups.io problem. But, as Brian has said, we can go down to Reply to Sender and copy the sender's address; that did work.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io [mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2020 11:47 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Oddity with TechTalk message format - Reported to Group Owner

I'm not sure what the problem is. I checcked a message from the NVDA list and I found the same thing. there is no reply to member link. To me, going through messages with a screen-reader, it appears to me as though they are HTML messages and I'm curious how you know they are text. Is it the lack of formatting or images?

I'll probably write to support about this but, since I've seen this on two lists, I suspect it is a general problem.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2020 10:19 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: [TechTalk] Oddity with TechTalk message format - Reported to Group Owner

I don't generally subscribe initially using the individual message option because I use the web interface, but for each group I do generally turn this on so that I receive at least a few messages to see exactly what they look like.

The messages I've received from TechTalk are in plain text format, which is not the default for Groups.io, and are also missing a number of the standard footer links that should be there whether the format is plain text or HTML, the most important of which given recent conversations is the "Reply to Sender" link, which is entirely absent.

I've never seen this happen before, and I'll check to see if it is happening on other groups by turning on individual message delivery for them for a short while.

So you're not insane if you're not seeing the Reply to Sender link, because it's not there, and I'm not insane thinking that it should be there, because in every other case I've ever dealt with, it is.
--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.

~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com


Re: Question: How to Reply To the Original Sender Of a Groups.io Message Using Outlook 365

Carolyn Arnold
 

OK, Norman, I'm trying your advice. I right clicked, hope this does not come back to the group. If it comes to you, you don't need to reply, just know you have my thanks for this idea that works. If it doesn't, then, heaven help us, it will come to the group. I know, that Brian's does though, so there is more than one way to skin a cat.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io [mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io] On Behalf Of Norman
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2020 11:36 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Question: How to Reply To the Original Sender Of a Groups.io Message Using Outlook 365

There are various ways to do this depending on the email program and screen reader used. In general i don't think pointing out the screen reader specific method is a good idea because as soon as you do someone else will want to know how to do something that uses a different screen reader.

For all desktop email programs, outlook, thunderbird, ETC. right clicking on the message gives you the option in the menu.




HTH.




On 8/27/2020 9:30 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:


On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 07:49 AM, David Goldfield wrote:


Someone asked me how to reply to the original sender of a Groups.io message

-
By activating the "Reply to Sender" mailto link at the bottom of any given message. It's purpose for being is to allow you to start an "off-list/off-group" conversation with whoever wrote the message, without involving anyone else in the group.

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.

~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com


Re: Question: How to Reply To the Original Sender Of a Groups.io Message Using Outlook 365

Carolyn Arnold
 

Brian's instructions to go to the bottom to get the sender's address is the solution that works now for me.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io [mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io] On Behalf Of gbmagoo@gmail.com
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2020 10:58 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Question: How to Reply To the Original Sender Of a Groups.io Message Using Outlook 365

Because I was in a hurry and without thinking I sent it to the list

Did this come to yyou only?

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Carolyn Arnold
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2020 07:46
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Question: How to Reply To the Original Sender Of a Groups.io Message Using Outlook 365

But it came to the list.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io [mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io] On Behalf Of gbmagoo@gmail.com
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2020 10:38 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Question: How to Reply To the Original Sender Of a Groups.io Message Using Outlook 365

Yes it did

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Carolyn Arnold
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2020 07:36
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Question: How to Reply To the Original Sender Of a Groups.io Message Using Outlook 365

Sorry to bother you, just seeing if this works,l thanks!

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io [mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io] On Behalf Of gbmagoo@gmail.com
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2020 8:17 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Question: How to Reply To the Original Sender Of a Groups.io Message Using Outlook 365

Why in your in box list of mails.
On the one you wish to reply to or to the group do the following Right click on the email which is shift f10 Now I got a lis of choices the first was reply the second was reply to all arrow to the one you wish and hit enter and do your email thing in the opened email

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of David Goldfield
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2020 04:49
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: [TechTalk] Question: How to Reply To the Original Sender Of a Groups.io Message Using Outlook 365

I'm almost embarrassed that I'm even asking this question as I assumed that the method for doing this was obvious. Perhaps it is but clearly it isn't to me.

Using Win10, version 2004 with what is likely the latest build or at least a very current version of Outlook 365.

Normally, if a sender has sent a message to you along with other individuals pressing ctrl-r replies to the original sender only and pressing shift-ctrl-r replies to everyone in the thread.

Someone asked me how to reply to the original sender of a Groups.io message using Outlook. In that instance pressing ctrl-R does reply to the group.

If I press the tab key a few times after opening the message I do encounter a button with the name of the original sender. You would think that pressing space or enter on that button would allow you to send an email to that person but it does not. Even the context menu doesn't have an option to send an email message as it does with Thunderbird. What's the most efficient method for sending an email to just the sender?


--
David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist JAWS Certified, 2019

WWW.DavidGoldfield.org


Re: number of people acceptable to keep everyone unmuted during a meeting?

Marie <magpie.mn@...>
 

This is always somewhat personal preference. But for me I would rather have a brief quote from the message to which you are responding to be included on top instead of no hint or explanation as to what or whom you are responding.
 
Marie
 

From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2020 9:09 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] number of people acceptable to keep everyone unmuted during a meeting?
 
Gene,

         Block quotation is used in HTML email, no matter what client or webmail is used.  It is not limited to Thunderbird but Tbird was used as an example.  I just finished playing with the commands mentioned, using NVDA, in Thunderbird, Outlook 2016, and em Client and it works the same in all of them.  I'll play with Gmail webmail, which is what I usually use, later on.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.

        ~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com


Re: respecting leaving computers on, or not

Gene
 

If you leave a system on, you should restart it now and then. If you don't, performance problems will start to occur and maybe program crashes. I can't tell you how often to restart. You can determine that from experience with your specific computer, I would think most people would start to have problems within five or seven days or maybe less. It may be a good idea, even if you don't have problems for five or seven days, to restart after that time just to keep from having problems later. Its inconvenient and at times important not to have problems, depending on what you are doing.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Wohlgamuth
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2020 12:11 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] respecting leaving computers on, or not



Hi There!

I generally leave my system on 24/7 and the only time it gets a restart is when I receive an update. Of course when there is nasty weather on top of us I will turn it off temporarily. The only thing I generally turn off on a regular basis is my monitor which is a new solid state monitor and probably uses very little current. I have had my 1 TB HD for about a year and a half now at it appears to be functioning very well! Just my 2-sense worth! Catch Ya Later!

de

mailto:wohlggie@gmail.com<KF8LT><Jim Wohlgamuth>.





On 27-Aug-20 12:28, Austin Pinto wrote:
most of the service calls are on monday as people put off their computer on friday and go to start on monday and it doesnt work. an idel computer only sips power. you can turn off your display but keep the cpu on. if you dont believe how much power a idel computer takes then get this device from amazon. https://www.amazon.com/P3-P4400-Electricity-Usage-Monitor/dp/B00009MDBU/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=kilowat&qid=1598545665&sr=8-1 connect it to the wall and plug in your computer and let it sit idel. On 8/27/20, Brian Vogel mailto:britechguy@gmail.com wrote: Geoff, I don't think that most of us think of LEDs as "light bulbs" in the conventional sense, and you're 100% correct on the difference between them and incandescents, which is what was being referred to at the time that quotation was written. True LED bulbs are a very recent thing as far as consumer lighting in traditional screw-in bulb form goes. Until and unless computers are all using SSDs, the biggest stress on HDDs is generally at boot time. So computers do tend to "pop" when turned off and on far more often than when in continuous use. Unfortunately, I still see that all the time. Almost all of my service calls for dead machines are secondary to either power supply failure or HDD failure that comes when the owner tries to power up their machine. There's no way of knowing whether the failure occurred during the previous power down, or the actual power up, but it's one of the two. The issue of power savings is a thing of its own, and does deserve consideration. -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041 *Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.* ~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com


Re: respecting leaving computers on, or not

Jim Wohlgamuth
 

Hi There!

I generally leave my system on 24/7 and the only time it gets a restart is when I receive an update.  Of course when there is nasty weather on top of us I will turn it off temporarily.  The only thing I generally turn off on a regular basis is my monitor which is a new solid state monitor and probably uses very little current.  I have had my 1 TB HD for about a year and a half now at it appears to be functioning very well! Just my 2-sense worth! Catch Ya Later!

de

<wohlggie@...><KF8LT><Jim Wohlgamuth>.


On 27-Aug-20 12:28, Austin Pinto wrote:
most of the service calls are on monday as people put off their
computer on friday and go to start on monday and it doesnt work.
an idel computer only sips power.
you can turn off your display but keep the cpu on.
if you dont believe how much power a idel computer takes then get this
device from amazon.
https://www.amazon.com/P3-P4400-Electricity-Usage-Monitor/dp/B00009MDBU/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=kilowat&qid=1598545665&sr=8-1
connect it to the wall and plug in your computer and let it sit idel.

On 8/27/20, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:
Geoff,

I don't think that most of us think of LEDs as "light bulbs" in the
conventional sense, and you're 100% correct on the difference between them
and incandescents, which is what was being referred to at the time that
quotation was written.  True LED bulbs are a very recent thing as far as
consumer lighting in traditional screw-in bulb form goes.

Until and unless computers are all using SSDs, the biggest stress on HDDs is
generally at boot time.  So computers do tend to "pop" when turned off and
on far more often than when in continuous use.  Unfortunately, I still see
that all the time.   Almost all of my service calls for dead machines are
secondary to either power supply failure or HDD failure that comes when the
owner tries to power up their machine.  There's no way of knowing whether
the failure occurred during the previous power down, or the actual power up,
but it's one of the two.

The issue of power savings is a thing of its own, and does deserve
consideration.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

*Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely
fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.*

~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com






Re: Replying to sender

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 12:50 PM, Howard Traxler wrote:
Thunderbird opens a new message but leaves the to and subject
My guess would be that some security feature/add-on/extension is involved.  Those are mailto links that look like this (and I'm changing the 'm' to 'v' mailto so that the example does not actually turn into a real mailto link, and I'm changing the e-mail address to a fake one):

vailto:person@...?subject=Private:{insert whatever the topic title was here}

It's dirt standard mechanism, and using same from the footer of one of the messages that has it triggers my Gmail webmail compose window to open with the correct address and subject prepopulated.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.

        ~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com


locked Re: Talking about quoting threads in the blindness community

Loy <loyrg2845@...>
 

I have been doing email for many years and top posting was almost always the
standard. I do like a part of the former message to be below the new
message. There is one person on several list I am on that never leaves a
portion of the former message and sometimes I don't know what she is
referring to.is

----- Original Message -----
From: "Monte Single" <mrsingle@sasktel.net>
To: <main@TechTalk.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2020 11:51 AM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Talking about quoting threads in the blindness
community


Hi Laz

Thanks for your post.
Apart from the many list I am subscribed to, I used email at work for
almost thirty years. I worked for a school board with 2500 employees. Top
posting was the standard email formaqt.
I estimate I have processed about 10 million emails since I started using
computers. Top posting is the standard I find on all lists I have used.
Brian get the prize for being the 1 outstannding bottom poster.

Thanks,

Monte



-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Laz
Sent: August 27, 2020 9:05 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Talking about quoting threads in the blindness
community

Hmm. I post a message so that people have a fuller understanding of where
you're coming from and you point out how invalid my message is.

It's not an obsession to top post;it's what we as blind people find easier
for us. And please explain to us why the majority of blind people on every
list you join need to adopt your way of doing things instead of you adapting
to the way things are done on a blind mailing list?

You have to walk the walk of being blind before you actually understand what
it's like; it's not something you jusdt pick up from talking with some blind
people, reading books, watching movies andTV shows, etc. It doesn't just rub
off of them and onto yourself. It's an experience that until you go through
it yourself you can't claim to understand what it's like to be blind.

Please attempt to be civil in your replies and messages.

Laz

On 8/27/20, Brian Vogel <britechguy@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 10:24 AM, Laz wrote:


it should be noted that Brian is fully sighted and does things as a
sighted person does
-
Indeed I am and do. I've never made a secret of the fact I'm fully
sighted.

That doesn't make any of the rest of your message have the slightest
bit of validity. I've been working with blind individuals for many,
many years now, and am acutely aware of "how things work." But the
fact is that "how things work" in any community often need to be changed,
at least somewhat.

The obsession with only top-posting, and never including any reference
material before starting one's own content, is one of those things. I
hear, and frequently, "We/I want to be treated just like anyone else."
Well, I'm not going to back down on my earlier assertion that this
particular style of "quote response quote response" has been the norm
in most email I've dealt with since the 1980s when one cannot simply
presume that the reader will know exactly who and/or what is being replied
to at the outset. It's long
past time that the complaints about this cease, period. It's done, it's
done commonly, you (any you) need to know how to deal with it. And
most sighted people would not bother with including a hyphen, as I do,
because they'd have no reason to believe it is necessary.

I do conform myself to the customs of any community in which I
participate when possible and when those customs do not interfere with
effective communication. If I had not left the tiny bit of context at
the outset to which I was replying, this message would have been much
less clear. It's that simply, so I'm not going to even try to please
those that want me to write in a manner I know to be less clear, not more
so.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

*Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they
rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and
on.*

~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com




--
Affordably priced Accessible Talking MP3 Player/book Reader, Victor Reader
Stream & Trek, blindshell Classic phone, Bluetooth devices, and accessories
http://www.talkingmp3players.com/
Email: laz@talkingmp3players.com
Phone: 727-498-0121
Personal Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/laz.mesa
Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/Talkingmp3players?_rdr


locked Re: Talking about quoting threads in the blindness community

Norman
 

Curious, did he actually leave?

On 8/27/2020 10:43 AM, Laz wrote:
Actually this isn't always the case; mostly people actually just leave
quietly. However in Joseph Hudson's case I believe he wanted people to
know that he has his own list where he does things his way and
announced it after attacking this list's owner. This is not the first
time he has done this.

And yes, Gene has done a marvelous jobrunning this list closely
channeling Carlos.

Stay well,

Laz

On 8/27/20, Dave <dlh007@centurylink.net> wrote:
Why do Members of a list usually threaten to leave the list when someone
else says something they find objectionable?


Holding yourself Hostage just seems a bit Self Centered to me.


I've been a list owner in years past, and a member of many lists through
the years.


If I don't care for someone's attitude, or their opinions, I rarely kick
them off the list, nor do I cry to the list owner to have them bring
correction.


I use my Delete Key, and I don't read posts with that subject line. I
once was on a list not too long ago, when I had two other members just
bringing material that was meant to be obnoxious.


I found their comments to be irritating, and so I just stopped reading
anything they posted. If I could have figured out how to do it, I would
have had my Email program just filter out all messages sent to the list
by these two people.


Instead I just Deleted them by hand.


Everyone has their opinions, and I may not care for some, they still
have the right to state them.


Freedom of Speech is valuable, extremely valuable. And to lose it, as
we are experiencing in the Western Nations will end up being a terrible
thing.


Be careful what you ask for and demand, as some day it could, and
probably will be used against you.


Grumpy Dave







Replying to sender

Howard Traxler
 

Funny thing:  When I hit on the "reply to sender" link at the bottom, Thunderbird opens a new message but leaves the to and subject fields blank.

Howard

8/27/2020 10:19 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:

I don't generally subscribe initially using the individual message option because I use the web interface, but for each group I do generally turn this on so that I receive at least a few messages to see exactly what they look like.

The messages I've received from TechTalk are in plain text format, which is not the default for Groups.io, and are also missing a number of the standard footer links that should be there whether the format is plain text or HTML, the most important of which given recent conversations is the "Reply to Sender" link, which is entirely absent.

I've never seen this happen before, and I'll check to see if it is happening on other groups by turning on individual message delivery for them for a short while.

So you're not insane if you're not seeing the Reply to Sender link, because it's not there, and I'm not insane thinking that it should be there, because in every other case I've ever dealt with, it is.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.

        ~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com



Re: number of people acceptable to keep everyone unmuted during a meeting?

Norman
 

Hi.

What i meant by developer groups was programers or system admins.

For example the drbd group was almost completely made up of system admins that are responsible for running multiple large data centers. In other words geeks, lol.

In circles like this quoteing posts in responses is very common.


Thanks.



On 8/27/2020 10:33 AM, Pamela Dominguez wrote:
What are developer groups?  Pam.
 
From: Norman
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2020 5:44 AM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] number of people acceptable to keep everyone unmuted during a meeting?
 

I have to agree with brian here.

Quoting the message that you're responding to above your response is a fairly common practice, especially in developer groups. I used to be on a list for drbd, which is a data syncronization program and well over 80 percent of the messages on that list were written in such a manner.

Personally i've not started doing that as a general practice, but the wining on this subject has made me think about starting to do so.

 

On 8/26/2020 11:18 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 10:06 PM, Pamela Dominguez wrote:
In a normal email, if the person answers the person’s questions, you can see what they are responding to under the response.
-
No.  In a typical "blind-style" email, perhaps, but I can assure you that most of the world does "quote, response, quote, response, quote, response" not "response, quote, response, quote, response, quote," when complex exchanges are involved.

Even I don't quote at the top when it would be immediately obvious to most readers in a topic what I was responding to.  This message is another case where there have been multiple responses, by multiple members, prior to this offering by me.

This entire message would be far harder to decipher were the assertion I'm saying is incorrect were to be at the bottom.  I would, in fact, for most readers, be entirely backward.

I also found out that NVDA (and, by extension, I'd be willing to presume most screen readers) can handle block quotes in e-mail messages with a built-in single letter navigation command, and a complementary single character (but not letter) built-in command to jump out of a block quote to the next/previous batch of unquoted material.  Anyone who wants to read about that can see the topic on the NVDA Group: 
Access regarding email with quotations and screen readers, NVDA, in this case

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.

        ~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com


Virus-free. www.avg.com


Re: Oddity with TechTalk message format - Reported to Group Owner

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

Just to be clear, the issue is not with the fact that the messages are in plain text, but with the fact that, as currently formatted, an essential mechanism for starting off-list communication with the sender of any given message is missing if you're an e-mail only participant.  The same limitation is not in place if you use the web interface.

At the very least, the Reply to Sender link needs to be restored, otherwise it's a nightmare to try to establish a private exchange off-list, which people frequently do if my inbox is any indication.

Most other groups related to screen readers and blind/low-vision technology are using the default Groups.io HTML format, which is simple to use as is even for a screen reader user, with the standard collection of links in the footer, but with click-through text indicating the function of each.  But, again, it's not the formatting that's the big issue here.  If Reply to Sender were present in label/link format, as a mailto link, that would be just fine.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.

        ~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com


Re: Oddity with TechTalk message format - Reported to Group Owner

Gene
 

I'll see what I can find in list settings.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Laz
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2020 11:43 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Oddity with TechTalk message format - Reported to Group Owner

Hi Gene,

Carlos most likely set this list up to be in plain text most likely
due to considerations about blind people reading the messages with
screen readers. He also apparently set it up so that all replies go to
the list and most likely checked thecheckmark which removes other
reply options which is the likely reason for the reply to sender
option not appearing.

I hope that helps.

Stay well,

Laz

On 8/27/20, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm not sure what the problem is. I checcked a message from the NVDA list
and I found the same thing. there is no reply to member link. To me, going

through messages with a screen-reader, it appears to me as though they are
HTML messages and I'm curious how you know they are text. Is it the lack of

formatting or images?

I'll probably write to support about this but, since I've seen this on two
lists, I suspect it is a general problem.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2020 10:19 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: [TechTalk] Oddity with TechTalk message format - Reported to Group

Owner

I don't generally subscribe initially using the individual message option
because I use the web interface, but for each group I do generally turn this

on so that I receive at least a few messages to see exactly what they look
like.

The messages I've received from TechTalk are in plain text format, which is

not the default for Groups.io, and are also missing a number of the standard

footer links that should be there whether the format is plain text or HTML,

the most important of which given recent conversations is the "Reply to
Sender" link, which is entirely absent.

I've never seen this happen before, and I'll check to see if it is happening

on other groups by turning on individual message delivery for them for a
short while.

So you're not insane if you're not seeing the Reply to Sender link, because

it's not there, and I'm not insane thinking that it should be there, because

in every other case I've ever dealt with, it is.
--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely

fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.

~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com







--
Affordably priced Accessible Talking MP3 Player/book Reader, Victor
Reader Stream & Trek, blindshell Classic phone, Bluetooth devices, and
accessories
http://www.talkingmp3players.com/
Email: laz@talkingmp3players.com
Phone: 727-498-0121
Personal Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/laz.mesa
Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/Talkingmp3players?_rdr


locked Re: Talking about quoting threads in the blindness community

Norman
 

On 8/27/2020 10:11 AM, Dave wrote:
Why do Members of a list usually threaten to leave the list when someone
else says something they find objectionable?


Holding yourself Hostage just seems a bit Self Centered to me.
These people seem to have the mistaken oppinion that because of there previous contribution to the list they are entitled to more freedom themselves than they would be willing to grant others. There could also be the hope that if they threaten to leave others might be a little more forgiving to them because they wish them to stay. Unfortunately for them the type of person that usually does this isn't the type that most list members would care one way or another.


Everyone has their opinions, and I may not care for some, they still
have the right to state them.


Freedom of Speech is valuable, extremely valuable.  And to lose it, as
we are experiencing in the Western Nations will end up being a terrible
thing.


Be careful what you ask for and demand, as some day it could, and
probably will be used against you.


Amen.


Re: Oddity with TechTalk message format - Reported to Group Owner

Laz
 

Hi Gene,

Carlos most likely set this list up to be in plain text most likely
due to considerations about blind people reading the messages with
screen readers. He also apparently set it up so that all replies go to
the list and most likely checked thecheckmark which removes other
reply options which is the likely reason for the reply to sender
option not appearing.

I hope that helps.

Stay well,

Laz

On 8/27/20, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm not sure what the problem is. I checcked a message from the NVDA list
and I found the same thing. there is no reply to member link. To me, going

through messages with a screen-reader, it appears to me as though they are
HTML messages and I'm curious how you know they are text. Is it the lack of

formatting or images?

I'll probably write to support about this but, since I've seen this on two
lists, I suspect it is a general problem.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2020 10:19 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: [TechTalk] Oddity with TechTalk message format - Reported to Group

Owner

I don't generally subscribe initially using the individual message option
because I use the web interface, but for each group I do generally turn this

on so that I receive at least a few messages to see exactly what they look
like.

The messages I've received from TechTalk are in plain text format, which is

not the default for Groups.io, and are also missing a number of the standard

footer links that should be there whether the format is plain text or HTML,

the most important of which given recent conversations is the "Reply to
Sender" link, which is entirely absent.

I've never seen this happen before, and I'll check to see if it is happening

on other groups by turning on individual message delivery for them for a
short while.

So you're not insane if you're not seeing the Reply to Sender link, because

it's not there, and I'm not insane thinking that it should be there, because

in every other case I've ever dealt with, it is.
--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely

fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.

~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com






--
Affordably priced Accessible Talking MP3 Player/book Reader, Victor
Reader Stream & Trek, blindshell Classic phone, Bluetooth devices, and
accessories
http://www.talkingmp3players.com/
Email: laz@talkingmp3players.com
Phone: 727-498-0121
Personal Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/laz.mesa
Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/Talkingmp3players?_rdr


JAWS2020 Build 2008.24 Update Download Link + What's New

Mike B.
 

Hi All,
 
Below is the direct download link to the J2020.2008.24 update and what's new in this release.
 
32 & 64 Bit link:
 
 
 
What's new in this release:

Enhancements in JAWS 2020.2008.24 (August 2020)
 
The following is a list of improvements made between the June 2020 release and the August 2020 update.
 
list of 26 items
• Once you have installed this August 2020 update, the English language versions will now include notification of official releases of new versions such
as the 2021 release coming out later this year. When you check for updates using the English versions of JAWS, ZoomText, and Fusion, major updates will
now also appear in the list once they are released. If your license is authorized to run the new version, the update can be installed. Otherwise, the update
is shown along with a message stating that a license renewal is required for use of this new version to work in other than 40 minute mode.
 
• Resolved an issue reading Tables in Microsoft Word 365 where JAWS was reporting "table" at the beginning of each row as you navigated by line.
• Resolved an issue with navigating tables in Chrome reported by Google where cells containing the ColSpan (column span) attribute were causing issues
when navigating by cell.
• Resolved an issue in Microsoft Word where text that was previously hidden and then unhidden, was not being read using speech.
• In Chrome and Edge, resolved an issue where selecting text from Right to Left was very sluggish in edit controls.
• Resolved an issue where HTML controls that started with punctuation were not reading as expected.
• Resolved an issue in Internet Explorer reported by SSA where JAWS was not honoring the language tags in ARIA live regions.
• Updated the Help Topic for Microsoft Edge to reflect support based on the latest Edge Chromium browser.
• Resolved an issue where JAWS was overly verbose when tabbing to a Video Player on web pages in Chrome and Firefox.
• Resolved a reported issue where Mouse Echo in Excel was too verbose, especially when moving the mouse across empty cells. These improvements make mouse
navigation with Fusion much better.
• When using Google Docs with Chrome, resolved an issue reported by Google where pressing the ALT key to access the Docs menu would sometimes unexpectedly
open the Chrome menu instead.
• Posted a TSN on the support pages for JAWS and Fusion customers using the latest version of Skype from Microsoft. A problem has been introduced with
this update which causes our software to stop reading correctly. The work around is to activate the menu with the ALT key, and then press ESC to leave
the menu and return to Skype. The issue has been reported to Microsoft and we anticipate it will be resolved in the near future.
• Resolved reported issues in Google Sheets where accurate column or row headings were not always being reported as expected while navigating.
• Resolved a reported issue in Libre Office where JAWS and Fusion would fail to read every other line after opening a document that was previously edited
and saved.
• Resolved issues reading prior messages in Zoom meetings and webinars using the JAWS commands, CTRL+1 through 0.
• Updated scripts and Help files provided by Corel Corp with changes to improve support for WordPerfect.
• Resolved problems where JAWS Personalized Web settings, accessed in Quick Settings (INSERT+V), were not saving and loading correctly. Personalized Web
Settings allow you to customize JAWS settings for a particular website. For example, if you have a particular page where you do not want JAWS to Automatically
read, you can make that change apply only for the specific domain rather than global.
• Added updated Braille display drivers tested and provided by Humanware to support new Braille devices shipping as of August 2020.
• Resolved an issue where JAWS was not reading the ALT Text for Graphics in both Chrome and Edge. Previously, JAWS was reading the Title.
• In Chrome and Edge, JAWS now relies on the "layout-guess" attribute to determine when a table is a layout or data table. Previously, JAWS could make
mistakes when the browser's zoom level was very high, such as 200%.
• Resolved a reported issue in Outlook where pressing CTRL+E to access the Search option on the ribbon, would not work as expected when the JAWS Virtual
Ribbons were enabled.
• Resolved an issue in Word 365 where JAWS would announce "misspelled" on each character instead of when you first encounter the misspelling when JAWS
is configured to detect spelling errors as you navigate.
• Resolved an issue where navigating to www.kmiz.com using Chrome was causing a hang in JAWS as it was attempting to process this site.
• Resolved an issue with the new Braille Viewer where "Computer Braille" was being announced under certain circumstances when navigating in Outlook.
• Added a Topic to the Help System to include all Layered Keystrokes. Previously, only the Table Layer commands were included.
• Added 8 Dot Braille Translation Table for Dutch.
list end


locked Re: Talking about quoting threads in the blindness community

Gene
 

I also disagree that you have to be blind to know what it is like to be blind. But what is causing discord on the list, I think, is the lecturing I know best and that's the last word, attitude of many of your messages Brian when it comes to what blind people should do and be. These things can be discussed and the same points can be made in ways that don't stir up this kind of dissention.

As I've ;pointed out, context is important, where is the blind person functioning? As I've pointed out, training is one reason such problems exist. On a list like this, in discussing questions, the point is not to change the world and rehabilitate and revolutionize how blind people who don't meet your standards and philosophy think about blindness or how they should do things. Encouraging people to do more is fine. Lecturing about what you won't tolerate and how people function as blind people accomplishes nothing and is divisive. Such points can be made with a far different tone.

I'm not questioning your motivation to be helpful and your commitment to equality for blind people. That doesn't mean you are implementing your commitment constructively.

It is my job to keep the list a friendly place and not to allow division and acrimony to occur on the list. of course, there will be some from time to time, but this thread has gotten out of hand. While I don't like to stop discussion, this thread has taken over the list. I am going to close it. If you want to reply, fine but within the next fifteen minutes, I will close it.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Dave
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2020 11:05 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Talking about quoting threads in the blindness community

So I need to be Blind before I could ever understand what it is like to
be blind?


This is just not true. I hear black people say this same sort of thing
when they are talking with someone they disagree with.


You could never understand what it's like to be Black, a woman, an
Indian, a Short person, an extremely tall person, a Bald person what
ever unless you are one of those people. Silly thinking in my opinion.


I am not a Great Cook. but, I can tell when a Cooked Meal is a Bad Meal.


Someone who has been around others, who happen to be blind ought to have
learned a few things about what someone blind has to do differently to
accomplish the same tasks as a sighted person.



I for one, find the statement that a person doesn't understand another
because they themselves are not like that other person, to be very wrong.


Some are better than others at putting themselves into the Shoes of
another person, so not all people may be able to understand the life of
someone blind, but there are those who can, and do all the time.



Grumpy Dave

On 8/27/2020 8:04 AM, Laz wrote:
Hmm. I post a message so that people have a fuller understanding of
where you're coming from and you point out how invalid my message is.

It's not an obsession to top post;it's what we as blind people find
easier for us. And please explain to us why the majority of blind
people on every list you join need to adopt your way of doing things
instead of you adapting to the way things are done on a blind mailing
list?

You have to walk the walk of being blind before you actually
understand what it's like; it's not something you jusdt pick up from
talking with some blind people, reading books, watching movies andTV
shows, etc. It doesn't just rub off of them and onto yourself. It's an
experience that until you go through it yourself you can't claim to
understand what it's like to be blind.

Please attempt to be civil in your replies and messages.

Laz

On 8/27/20, Brian Vogel <britechguy@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 10:24 AM, Laz wrote:

it should be noted that Brian is fully sighted and does things as a
sighted person does
-
Indeed I am and do. I've never made a secret of the fact I'm fully
sighted.

That doesn't make any of the rest of your message have the slightest bit of
validity. I've been working with blind individuals for many, many years
now, and am acutely aware of "how things work." But the fact is that "how
things work" in any community often need to be changed, at least somewhat.

The obsession with only top-posting, and never including any reference
material before starting one's own content, is one of those things. I hear,
and frequently, "We/I want to be treated just like anyone else." Well, I'm
not going to back down on my earlier assertion that this particular style of
"quote response quote response" has been the norm in most email I've dealt
with since the 1980s when one cannot simply presume that the reader will
know exactly who and/or what is being replied to at the outset. It's long
past time that the complaints about this cease, period. It's done, it's
done commonly, you (any you) need to know how to deal with it. And most
sighted people would not bother with including a hyphen, as I do, because
they'd have no reason to believe it is necessary.

I do conform myself to the customs of any community in which I participate
when possible and when those customs do not interfere with effective
communication. If I had not left the tiny bit of context at the outset to
which I was replying, this message would have been much less clear. It's
that simply, so I'm not going to even try to please those that want me to
write in a manner I know to be less clear, not more so.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

*Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely
fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.*

~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com




Re: respecting leaving computers on, or not

 

most of the service calls are on monday as people put off their
computer on friday and go to start on monday and it doesnt work.
an idel computer only sips power.
you can turn off your display but keep the cpu on.
if you dont believe how much power a idel computer takes then get this
device from amazon.
https://www.amazon.com/P3-P4400-Electricity-Usage-Monitor/dp/B00009MDBU/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=kilowat&qid=1598545665&sr=8-1
connect it to the wall and plug in your computer and let it sit idel.

On 8/27/20, Brian Vogel <britechguy@gmail.com> wrote:
Geoff,

I don't think that most of us think of LEDs as "light bulbs" in the
conventional sense, and you're 100% correct on the difference between them
and incandescents, which is what was being referred to at the time that
quotation was written.  True LED bulbs are a very recent thing as far as
consumer lighting in traditional screw-in bulb form goes.

Until and unless computers are all using SSDs, the biggest stress on HDDs is
generally at boot time.  So computers do tend to "pop" when turned off and
on far more often than when in continuous use.  Unfortunately, I still see
that all the time.   Almost all of my service calls for dead machines are
secondary to either power supply failure or HDD failure that comes when the
owner tries to power up their machine.  There's no way of knowing whether
the failure occurred during the previous power down, or the actual power up,
but it's one of the two.

The issue of power savings is a thing of its own, and does deserve
consideration.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

*Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely
fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.*

~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com



--
search for me on facebook, google+, orkut..
austinpinto.xaviers@gmail.com
follow me on twitter.
austinmpinto
contact me on skype.
austin.pinto3


locked Re: Talking about quoting threads in the blindness community

Laz
 

Hi Monte,

You have a similar experience to mine. In all the lists I've ever been
on only one which is a technical list with mostly firmware developers
on it, recommends bottom posting; they however don't make a big deal
about it if an individual top posts. On that list I always bottom
post.

At times if I'm asked several questions in an email message I will let
the person know that my answers can be found below their questions
marked with an asterisk in order to make it easier for myself and for
them to easily find the answers they sought.

When it comes to lists with mainly blind people on them i've only seen
a total of about 3 individuals who insist on bottom posting and refus
to consider any other way of replying to messages. Of course as stated
by some on this very list, those messages may just end up being
ignored. (shrugs)

Stay well,

Laz

On 8/27/20, Monte Single <mrsingle@sasktel.net> wrote:
Hi Laz

Thanks for your post.
Apart from the many list I am subscribed to, I used email at work for
almost thirty years. I worked for a school board with 2500 employees. Top
posting was the standard email formaqt.
I estimate I have processed about 10 million emails since I started using
computers. Top posting is the standard I find on all lists I have used.
Brian get the prize for being the 1 outstannding bottom poster.

Thanks,

Monte



-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Laz
Sent: August 27, 2020 9:05 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Talking about quoting threads in the blindness
community

Hmm. I post a message so that people have a fuller understanding of where
you're coming from and you point out how invalid my message is.

It's not an obsession to top post;it's what we as blind people find easier
for us. And please explain to us why the majority of blind people on every
list you join need to adopt your way of doing things instead of you adapting
to the way things are done on a blind mailing list?

You have to walk the walk of being blind before you actually understand what
it's like; it's not something you jusdt pick up from talking with some blind
people, reading books, watching movies andTV shows, etc. It doesn't just rub
off of them and onto yourself. It's an experience that until you go through
it yourself you can't claim to understand what it's like to be blind.

Please attempt to be civil in your replies and messages.

Laz

On 8/27/20, Brian Vogel <britechguy@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 10:24 AM, Laz wrote:


it should be noted that Brian is fully sighted and does things as a
sighted person does
-
Indeed I am and do. I've never made a secret of the fact I'm fully
sighted.

That doesn't make any of the rest of your message have the slightest
bit of validity. I've been working with blind individuals for many,
many years now, and am acutely aware of "how things work." But the
fact is that "how things work" in any community often need to be changed,
at least somewhat.

The obsession with only top-posting, and never including any reference
material before starting one's own content, is one of those things. I
hear, and frequently, "We/I want to be treated just like anyone else."
Well, I'm not going to back down on my earlier assertion that this
particular style of "quote response quote response" has been the norm
in most email I've dealt with since the 1980s when one cannot simply
presume that the reader will know exactly who and/or what is being replied
to at the outset. It's long
past time that the complaints about this cease, period. It's done, it's
done commonly, you (any you) need to know how to deal with it. And
most sighted people would not bother with including a hyphen, as I do,
because they'd have no reason to believe it is necessary.

I do conform myself to the customs of any community in which I
participate when possible and when those customs do not interfere with
effective communication. If I had not left the tiny bit of context at
the outset to which I was replying, this message would have been much
less clear. It's that simply, so I'm not going to even try to please
those that want me to write in a manner I know to be less clear, not more
so.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

*Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they
rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and
on.*

~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com




--
Affordably priced Accessible Talking MP3 Player/book Reader, Victor Reader
Stream & Trek, blindshell Classic phone, Bluetooth devices, and accessories
http://www.talkingmp3players.com/
Email: laz@talkingmp3players.com
Phone: 727-498-0121
Personal Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/laz.mesa
Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/Talkingmp3players?_rdr






--
Affordably priced Accessible Talking MP3 Player/book Reader, Victor
Reader Stream & Trek, blindshell Classic phone, Bluetooth devices, and
accessories
http://www.talkingmp3players.com/
Email: laz@talkingmp3players.com
Phone: 727-498-0121
Personal Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/laz.mesa
Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/Talkingmp3players?_rdr


Re: respecting leaving computers on, or not

Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

Geoff,

          I don't think that most of us think of LEDs as "light bulbs" in the conventional sense, and you're 100% correct on the difference between them and incandescents, which is what was being referred to at the time that quotation was written.  True LED bulbs are a very recent thing as far as consumer lighting in traditional screw-in bulb form goes.

           Until and unless computers are all using SSDs, the biggest stress on HDDs is generally at boot time.  So computers do tend to "pop" when turned off and on far more often than when in continuous use.  Unfortunately, I still see that all the time.   Almost all of my service calls for dead machines are secondary to either power supply failure or HDD failure that comes when the owner tries to power up their machine.  There's no way of knowing whether the failure occurred during the previous power down, or the actual power up, but it's one of the two.

            The issue of power savings is a thing of its own, and does deserve consideration.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.

        ~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com

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