Date   

locked Re: Talking about quoting threads in the blindness community

Gene
 

I've seen many instances where members of groups change a subject line. On all the lists I've been on, it has been acceptable and I never saw any complaints when someone would do so. So you could have done so and it would have been completely acceptable.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: joseph hudson
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2020 12:23 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Talking about quoting threads in the blindness community

Yes while I agree I still think that the subject line should've still been changed especially if they were going to start talking about you. I hate to say it but half of this group is lazy and chooses not to change the subject lines when they should be changed and it was just quite getting annoying. This group used to be a really good group and change things when Carlos or a Moderator by the name of Jean used to ask. But now it's like all that mess is gone by the wayside but oh well. I guess I'll become the groups permanent subject line changer.
joseph hudson

Email FaceTime and iMessage
jhud7789@...


Office phone/what's up messenger

254-300-7667

Emergency sell

254-813-2461

https://www.facebook.com/joseph.hudson.9404

https://twitter.com/josephhudson89

On Aug 27, 2020, at 12:18 AM, Brian Vogel <@britechguy> wrote:

Joseph,

I dislike "the curtains not matching the carpet" just as much as you do, but thread drift happens, and in this case the original topic was exhausted long before complaints about me began. I find the lack of topic changing to occur far more frequently in some quarters than others. I routinely split, and re-title, topics on a number of groups I moderate when individuals don't do that themselves and there's a "real topic" in my opinion that should be spun off.

When topics where the original question has been answered, but it then starts to drift "at random" I don't.

Some groups are also a lot more strict about topic focus than others. This one appears to be fairly wide-ranging from what I've observed.
--
Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041
Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.
~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com


locked Re: Talking about quoting threads in the blindness community

Gene
 

No, Carlos never strictly enforced that rule. I remember a message where he said it would be a good thing if people change subject lines if the discussion changes in a thread but that it is so common that this isn't done that he wouldn't stricgtlhy enforce it. He even said that he is guilty of not changing subject lines himself.

I believe he would change a subject line off and on. he may have reminded list members that it would be a good thing if they did but as I said, he never made much of an issue about it.
Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: joseph hudson
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2020 12:10 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Talking about quoting threads in the blindness community

Hi Brian, I'm fully aware of the functionality of groups.io. That's not the point. I was interested in the discussion at hand. And I know one of Carlos's rules was to keep subject lines on topic especially whenever I came to the tech talk group.
joseph hudson

Email FaceTime and iMessage
jhud7789@...


Office phone/what's up messenger

254-300-7667

Emergency sell

254-813-2461

https://www.facebook.com/joseph.hudson.9404

https://twitter.com/josephhudson89

On Aug 26, 2020, at 11:58 PM, Brian Vogel <@britechguy> wrote:

Let's not forget that at the bottom of each and every message that arrives from Groups.io, whether individual messages or in digests, is the Mute this topic link. If a topic is no longer of interest, which can happen, that's what it's there for.

Anyone can also set up topic preview for any Groups.io group, if they're willing to log in to their Groups.io account to do so. Controlling the Messages You Receive via E-Mail from Groups.io (docx). This can be very, very handy on high-traffic groups where it's a select few topics that you really have an interest in.

Those using any service owe it to themselves to become familiar with the features offered, and Groups.io gives individual users a far greater degree of control than many.

--
Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041
Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.
~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com


locked Re: Talking about quoting threads in the blindness community

Gene
 

I'm not responsible for your behavior or decisions. No one is making you do anything. Don't try to guilt trip me. I think the question is whether you consider your desire to help list members and the information and ability you have to do so to be more important than the occasional level of being offended you feel. But that is your decision.

If someone addresses people in a way that may be irritating to some people, even many, that in and of itself isn't grounds for removal. There are other list mmembers that address list members in ways that may bother some people. They aren't removed from this list nor have I seen them removed from other lists I've followed over the years. And at times, I've seen some arguments and debates develop about the content and manner of their messages. However, in the cases I've observed, such people also have useful and valuable information to contribute.

I have seen this or that person removed from lists if they promote a lot of discord and are really tendentious and argumentative. Brian has a style at times that people may consider abrupt. But, as I say, in my twelve years of being on various lists, I've never seen someone removed for a style like that and I've seen it displayed by others at times.

As I said, I hope you remain on the list but I don't think the kinds of messages you are offended by constitute grounds for removal or closing the thread.

Also this is one thread. the kinds of messages in this thread you object to may not occur often. This one thread may bring them out, most threads, perhaps the vast majority, may not. I would think it would be wise to wait and see before leaving.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: joseph hudson
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2020 12:00 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Talking about quoting threads in the blindness community

Well for one thing, the subject line never got changed in this thread we are starting discussing this topic it has been going on in the same thread that we were talking about how to join a zoom meeting. And the second thing was as he started talking down to a few of your listers on List about how he won't do something that was just a very simple request. And I consider that to be pretty rude. As far as I'm concerned you and Michael Coppell with the same shoe. Just different attitude. He got all upset because I had made an honest mistake with my computer and put his list address whenever I was talking about my own list. And he took pot shots at me and blocked me from his group. But you're just the opposite you've seen nothing wrong with Brian's behavior so you're going to continue to let it go on and you're gonna force me to leave because nobody's had good list etiquette. So with that being said. If anybody wants to find me. You can send a blank message to the following email address.

blind-techies+subscribe@groups.io
On Aug 26, 2020, at 11:33 PM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

The moderator may want to enter into this discussion. If someone disobeys list rules, that's one thing. Name me one list rule Brian has broken. And if you can, explain why the breach is severe enough to have the thread stopped or tell Brian to change his behavior. Disagreements happen on lists and some people have certain approaches or attitudes others may not like. Why are you reading the thread if you don't like it? I'll be sorry if you leave the list but I'm not going to micromanage it either and stop discussions unless there is a good reason to do so. I see none.

Gene, owner
-----Original Message----- From: joseph hudson
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2020 10:32 PM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: [TechTalk] Talking about quoting threads in the blindness community

First things first, and I'm going to do it. I wish somebody would've like change the subject line because it has nothing to do with the subject line that's been discussed and I'm quite disappointed at the admin team hasn't done this. Secondly Brian, I've never seen anybody right like what you do, until I started reading emails on groups.io. And I communicate with Senate folks on email quite frequently. There is nobody that writes like what you do it's up Mark in a couple of other people on GMF. And that's about the only time that I even pay attention to that particular writing style. And I'm gonna tell you if this was my list. And you want to write like that to make it confusing for other blind individuals to decipher all that mess and especially if they were a beginner, you know what I would do until you go ahead and start your own list and do just exactly what you're doing here. I probably will be leaving this group sooner than later because I've been reading and deleting this thread for quite some time. And it sounds like it's just come in bunch of bickering back-and-forth. And if the admin team doesn't want me to leave because of the acid that I am to this list and to the health that I do provide occasionally then please take control of your list a little bit better. I'm sorry I had to come down like this but it was quite getting somewhat annoying.
On Aug 26, 2020, at 10:18 PM, Brian Vogel <@britechguy> wrote:

On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 10:06 PM, Pamela Dominguez wrote:
In a normal email, if the person answers the person’s questions, you can see what they are responding to under the response.
-
No. In a typical "blind-style" email, perhaps, but I can assure you that most of the world does "quote, response, quote, response, quote, response" not "response, quote, response, quote, response, quote," when complex exchanges are involved.

Even I don't quote at the top when it would be immediately obvious to most readers in a topic what I was responding to. This message is another case where there have been multiple responses, by multiple members, prior to this offering by me.

This entire message would be far harder to decipher were the assertion I'm saying is incorrect were to be at the bottom. I would, in fact, for most readers, be entirely backward.

I also found out that NVDA (and, by extension, I'd be willing to presume most screen readers) can handle block quotes in e-mail messages with a built-in single letter navigation command, and a complementary single character (but not letter) built-in command to jump out of a block quote to the next/previous batch of unquoted material. Anyone who wants to read about that can see the topic on the NVDA Group:
Access regarding email with quotations and screen readers, NVDA, in this case

--
Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041
Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.
~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com




locked Re: Talking about quoting threads in the blindness community

joseph hudson <jhud7789@...>
 

Yes while I agree I still think that the subject line should've still been changed especially if they were going to start talking about you. I hate to say it but half of this group is lazy and chooses not to change the subject lines when they should be changed and it was just quite getting annoying. This group used to be a really good group and change things when Carlos or a Moderator by the name of Jean used to ask. But now it's like all that mess is gone by the wayside but oh well. I guess I'll become the groups permanent subject line changer.
joseph hudson

Email FaceTime and iMessage
jhud7789@...


Office phone/what's up messenger

254-300-7667

Emergency sell

254-813-2461

https://www.facebook.com/joseph.hudson.9404

https://twitter.com/josephhudson89

On Aug 27, 2020, at 12:18 AM, Brian Vogel <@britechguy> wrote:

Joseph,

I dislike "the curtains not matching the carpet" just as much as you do, but thread drift happens, and in this case the original topic was exhausted long before complaints about me began. I find the lack of topic changing to occur far more frequently in some quarters than others. I routinely split, and re-title, topics on a number of groups I moderate when individuals don't do that themselves and there's a "real topic" in my opinion that should be spun off.

When topics where the original question has been answered, but it then starts to drift "at random" I don't.

Some groups are also a lot more strict about topic focus than others. This one appears to be fairly wide-ranging from what I've observed.
--
Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041
Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.
~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com


locked Re: Talking about quoting threads in the blindness community

 

Joseph,

           I dislike "the curtains not matching the carpet" just as much as you do, but thread drift happens, and in this case the original topic was exhausted long before complaints about me began.  I find the lack of topic changing to occur far more frequently in some quarters than others.  I routinely split, and re-title, topics on a number of groups I moderate when individuals don't do that themselves and there's a "real topic" in my opinion that should be spun off.

            When topics where the original question has been answered, but it then starts to drift "at random" I don't.

             Some groups are also a lot more strict about topic focus than others.  This one appears to be fairly wide-ranging from what I've observed.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.

        ~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com


locked Re: Talking about quoting threads in the blindness community

joseph hudson <jhud7789@...>
 

Hi Brian, I'm fully aware of the functionality of groups.io. That's not the point. I was interested in the discussion at hand. And I know one of Carlos's rules was to keep subject lines on topic especially whenever I came to the tech talk group.
joseph hudson

Email FaceTime and iMessage
jhud7789@...


Office phone/what's up messenger

254-300-7667

Emergency sell

254-813-2461

https://www.facebook.com/joseph.hudson.9404

https://twitter.com/josephhudson89

On Aug 26, 2020, at 11:58 PM, Brian Vogel <@britechguy> wrote:

Let's not forget that at the bottom of each and every message that arrives from Groups.io, whether individual messages or in digests, is the Mute this topic link. If a topic is no longer of interest, which can happen, that's what it's there for.

Anyone can also set up topic preview for any Groups.io group, if they're willing to log in to their Groups.io account to do so. Controlling the Messages You Receive via E-Mail from Groups.io (docx). This can be very, very handy on high-traffic groups where it's a select few topics that you really have an interest in.

Those using any service owe it to themselves to become familiar with the features offered, and Groups.io gives individual users a far greater degree of control than many.

--
Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041
Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.
~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com


Re: number of people acceptable to keep everyone unmuted during a meeting?

 

And I can confirm the behavior is the same when reading messages with block quotation in Gmail webmail.

One thing I do find odd is that NVDA does not announce "depth" of block quotes when multi-level quoting is active, or at least it doesn't when encountering the start of the next deeper level of quotation.  Not that it's essential, but it can be handy to know.  It's just telling you when you enter a section that's block quoted.

The comma command does jump out, but if someone uses blank lines at the start of a reply segment you will get "blank" announced just like you would any other time you encounter a blank line.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.

        ~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com


locked Re: Talking about quoting threads in the blindness community

joseph hudson <jhud7789@...>
 

Well for one thing, the subject line never got changed in this thread we are starting discussing this topic it has been going on in the same thread that we were talking about how to join a zoom meeting. And the second thing was as he started talking down to a few of your listers on List about how he won't do something that was just a very simple request. And I consider that to be pretty rude. As far as I'm concerned you and Michael Coppell with the same shoe. Just different attitude. He got all upset because I had made an honest mistake with my computer and put his list address whenever I was talking about my own list. And he took pot shots at me and blocked me from his group. But you're just the opposite you've seen nothing wrong with Brian's behavior so you're going to continue to let it go on and you're gonna force me to leave because nobody's had good list etiquette. So with that being said. If anybody wants to find me. You can send a blank message to the following email address.

blind-techies+subscribe@groups.io

On Aug 26, 2020, at 11:33 PM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

The moderator may want to enter into this discussion. If someone disobeys list rules, that's one thing. Name me one list rule Brian has broken. And if you can, explain why the breach is severe enough to have the thread stopped or tell Brian to change his behavior. Disagreements happen on lists and some people have certain approaches or attitudes others may not like. Why are you reading the thread if you don't like it? I'll be sorry if you leave the list but I'm not going to micromanage it either and stop discussions unless there is a good reason to do so. I see none.

Gene, owner
-----Original Message----- From: joseph hudson
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2020 10:32 PM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: [TechTalk] Talking about quoting threads in the blindness community

First things first, and I'm going to do it. I wish somebody would've like change the subject line because it has nothing to do with the subject line that's been discussed and I'm quite disappointed at the admin team hasn't done this. Secondly Brian, I've never seen anybody right like what you do, until I started reading emails on groups.io. And I communicate with Senate folks on email quite frequently. There is nobody that writes like what you do it's up Mark in a couple of other people on GMF. And that's about the only time that I even pay attention to that particular writing style. And I'm gonna tell you if this was my list. And you want to write like that to make it confusing for other blind individuals to decipher all that mess and especially if they were a beginner, you know what I would do until you go ahead and start your own list and do just exactly what you're doing here. I probably will be leaving this group sooner than later because I've been reading and deleting this thread for quite some time. And it sounds like it's just come in bunch of bickering back-and-forth. And if the admin team doesn't want me to leave because of the acid that I am to this list and to the health that I do provide occasionally then please take control of your list a little bit better. I'm sorry I had to come down like this but it was quite getting somewhat annoying.
On Aug 26, 2020, at 10:18 PM, Brian Vogel <@britechguy> wrote:

On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 10:06 PM, Pamela Dominguez wrote:
In a normal email, if the person answers the person’s questions, you can see what they are responding to under the response.
-
No. In a typical "blind-style" email, perhaps, but I can assure you that most of the world does "quote, response, quote, response, quote, response" not "response, quote, response, quote, response, quote," when complex exchanges are involved.

Even I don't quote at the top when it would be immediately obvious to most readers in a topic what I was responding to. This message is another case where there have been multiple responses, by multiple members, prior to this offering by me.

This entire message would be far harder to decipher were the assertion I'm saying is incorrect were to be at the bottom. I would, in fact, for most readers, be entirely backward.

I also found out that NVDA (and, by extension, I'd be willing to presume most screen readers) can handle block quotes in e-mail messages with a built-in single letter navigation command, and a complementary single character (but not letter) built-in command to jump out of a block quote to the next/previous batch of unquoted material. Anyone who wants to read about that can see the topic on the NVDA Group:
Access regarding email with quotations and screen readers, NVDA, in this case

--
Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041
Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.
~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com




locked Re: Talking about quoting threads in the blindness community

 

Let's not forget that at the bottom of each and every message that arrives from Groups.io, whether individual messages or in digests, is the Mute this topic link.  If a topic is no longer of interest, which can happen, that's what it's there for.

Anyone can also set up topic preview for any Groups.io group, if they're willing to log in to their Groups.io account to do so.  Controlling the Messages You Receive via E-Mail from Groups.io (docx).  This can be very, very handy on high-traffic groups where it's a select few topics that you really have an interest in.

Those using any service owe it to themselves to become familiar with the features offered, and Groups.io gives individual users a far greater degree of control than many.

 

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.

        ~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com


Re: number of people acceptable to keep everyone unmuted during a meeting?

Gene
 

then that sounds like a useful thing to know for people who spend time on e-mail lists that are composed of primarily sighted members. Now the question is, whether some sorts of commands should be added to NVDA that use this formatting, such as skip to next new material or skip to next quoted material. I think such commands should be added. It would be more convenient to have such commands and it would encourage people to use the ability.

Since the original message said that bloc quotes are used in Thunderbird, I thought it likely that thatGene

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2020 11:09 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] number of people acceptable to keep everyone unmuted during a meeting?

Gene,

Block quotation is used in HTML email, no matter what client or webmail is used. It is not limited to Thunderbird but Tbird was used as an example. I just finished playing with the commands mentioned, using NVDA, in Thunderbird, Outlook 2016, and em Client and it works the same in all of them. I'll play with Gmail webmail, which is what I usually use, later on.

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.

~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com


locked Re: Talking about quoting threads in the blindness community

Gene
 

The moderator may want to enter into this discussion. If someone disobeys list rules, that's one thing. Name me one list rule Brian has broken. And if you can, explain why the breach is severe enough to have the thread stopped or tell Brian to change his behavior. Disagreements happen on lists and some people have certain approaches or attitudes others may not like. Why are you reading the thread if you don't like it? I'll be sorry if you leave the list but I'm not going to micromanage it either and stop discussions unless there is a good reason to do so. I see none.

Gene, owner

-----Original Message-----
From: joseph hudson
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2020 10:32 PM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: [TechTalk] Talking about quoting threads in the blindness community

First things first, and I'm going to do it. I wish somebody would've like change the subject line because it has nothing to do with the subject line that's been discussed and I'm quite disappointed at the admin team hasn't done this. Secondly Brian, I've never seen anybody right like what you do, until I started reading emails on groups.io. And I communicate with Senate folks on email quite frequently. There is nobody that writes like what you do it's up Mark in a couple of other people on GMF. And that's about the only time that I even pay attention to that particular writing style. And I'm gonna tell you if this was my list. And you want to write like that to make it confusing for other blind individuals to decipher all that mess and especially if they were a beginner, you know what I would do until you go ahead and start your own list and do just exactly what you're doing here. I probably will be leaving this group sooner than later because I've been reading and deleting this thread for quite some time. And it sounds like it's just come in bunch of bickering back-and-forth. And if the admin team doesn't want me to leave because of the acid that I am to this list and to the health that I do provide occasionally then please take control of your list a little bit better. I'm sorry I had to come down like this but it was quite getting somewhat annoying.
On Aug 26, 2020, at 10:18 PM, Brian Vogel <@britechguy> wrote:

On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 10:06 PM, Pamela Dominguez wrote:
In a normal email, if the person answers the person’s questions, you can see what they are responding to under the response.
-
No. In a typical "blind-style" email, perhaps, but I can assure you that most of the world does "quote, response, quote, response, quote, response" not "response, quote, response, quote, response, quote," when complex exchanges are involved.

Even I don't quote at the top when it would be immediately obvious to most readers in a topic what I was responding to. This message is another case where there have been multiple responses, by multiple members, prior to this offering by me.

This entire message would be far harder to decipher were the assertion I'm saying is incorrect were to be at the bottom. I would, in fact, for most readers, be entirely backward.

I also found out that NVDA (and, by extension, I'd be willing to presume most screen readers) can handle block quotes in e-mail messages with a built-in single letter navigation command, and a complementary single character (but not letter) built-in command to jump out of a block quote to the next/previous batch of unquoted material. Anyone who wants to read about that can see the topic on the NVDA Group:
Access regarding email with quotations and screen readers, NVDA, in this case

--
Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041
Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.
~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com


Re: number of people acceptable to keep everyone unmuted during a meeting?

 

Gene,

         Block quotation is used in HTML email, no matter what client or webmail is used.  It is not limited to Thunderbird but Tbird was used as an example.  I just finished playing with the commands mentioned, using NVDA, in Thunderbird, Outlook 2016, and em Client and it works the same in all of them.  I'll play with Gmail webmail, which is what I usually use, later on.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.

        ~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com


Re: number of people acceptable to keep everyone unmuted during a meeting?

Gene
 

But the bloc qquote means of navigation was only specified for Thunderbird, which is fine for those who use it but not a solution to how screen-readers can be made to skip qquoted text in e-mail programs in general.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2020 10:18 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] number of people acceptable to keep everyone unmuted during a meeting?

On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 10:06 PM, Pamela Dominguez wrote:
In a normal email, if the person answers the person’s questions, you can see what they are responding to under the response.-
No. In a typical "blind-style" email, perhaps, but I can assure you that most of the world does "quote, response, quote, response, quote, response" not "response, quote, response, quote, response, quote," when complex exchanges are involved.

Even I don't quote at the top when it would be immediately obvious to most readers in a topic what I was responding to. This message is another case where there have been multiple responses, by multiple members, prior to this offering by me.

This entire message would be far harder to decipher were the assertion I'm saying is incorrect were to be at the bottom. I would, in fact, for most readers, be entirely backward.

I also found out that NVDA (and, by extension, I'd be willing to presume most screen readers) can handle block quotes in e-mail messages with a built-in single letter navigation command, and a complementary single character (but not letter) built-in command to jump out of a block quote to the next/previous batch of unquoted material. Anyone who wants to read about that can see the topic on the NVDA Group:
Access regarding email with quotations and screen readers, NVDA, in this case
--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.

~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com


locked Talking about quoting threads in the blindness community

joseph hudson <jhud7789@...>
 

First things first, and I'm going to do it. I wish somebody would've like change the subject line because it has nothing to do with the subject line that's been discussed and I'm quite disappointed at the admin team hasn't done this. Secondly Brian, I've never seen anybody right like what you do, until I started reading emails on groups.io. And I communicate with Senate folks on email quite frequently. There is nobody that writes like what you do it's up Mark in a couple of other people on GMF. And that's about the only time that I even pay attention to that particular writing style. And I'm gonna tell you if this was my list. And you want to write like that to make it confusing for other blind individuals to decipher all that mess and especially if they were a beginner, you know what I would do until you go ahead and start your own list and do just exactly what you're doing here. I probably will be leaving this group sooner than later because I've been reading and deleting this thread for quite some time. And it sounds like it's just come in bunch of bickering back-and-forth. And if the admin team doesn't want me to leave because of the acid that I am to this list and to the health that I do provide occasionally then please take control of your list a little bit better. I'm sorry I had to come down like this but it was quite getting somewhat annoying.

On Aug 26, 2020, at 10:18 PM, Brian Vogel <@britechguy> wrote:

On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 10:06 PM, Pamela Dominguez wrote:
In a normal email, if the person answers the person’s questions, you can see what they are responding to under the response.
-
No. In a typical "blind-style" email, perhaps, but I can assure you that most of the world does "quote, response, quote, response, quote, response" not "response, quote, response, quote, response, quote," when complex exchanges are involved.

Even I don't quote at the top when it would be immediately obvious to most readers in a topic what I was responding to. This message is another case where there have been multiple responses, by multiple members, prior to this offering by me.

This entire message would be far harder to decipher were the assertion I'm saying is incorrect were to be at the bottom. I would, in fact, for most readers, be entirely backward.

I also found out that NVDA (and, by extension, I'd be willing to presume most screen readers) can handle block quotes in e-mail messages with a built-in single letter navigation command, and a complementary single character (but not letter) built-in command to jump out of a block quote to the next/previous batch of unquoted material. Anyone who wants to read about that can see the topic on the NVDA Group:
Access regarding email with quotations and screen readers, NVDA, in this case

--
Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041
Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.
~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com


Re: number of people acceptable to keep everyone unmuted during a meeting?

 

On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 10:06 PM, Pamela Dominguez wrote:
In a normal email, if the person answers the person’s questions, you can see what they are responding to under the response.
-
No.  In a typical "blind-style" email, perhaps, but I can assure you that most of the world does "quote, response, quote, response, quote, response" not "response, quote, response, quote, response, quote," when complex exchanges are involved.

Even I don't quote at the top when it would be immediately obvious to most readers in a topic what I was responding to.  This message is another case where there have been multiple responses, by multiple members, prior to this offering by me.

This entire message would be far harder to decipher were the assertion I'm saying is incorrect were to be at the bottom.  I would, in fact, for most readers, be entirely backward.

I also found out that NVDA (and, by extension, I'd be willing to presume most screen readers) can handle block quotes in e-mail messages with a built-in single letter navigation command, and a complementary single character (but not letter) built-in command to jump out of a block quote to the next/previous batch of unquoted material.  Anyone who wants to read about that can see the topic on the NVDA Group:  
Access regarding email with quotations and screen readers, NVDA, in this case

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.

        ~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com


Re: number of people acceptable to keep everyone unmuted during a meeting?

Ann Parsons
 

Hi all,

It will announce it if you have your punctuation set to some. If it doesn't just arrow down past the line that is ostensively blank.

Ann P.

--
Ann K. Parsons
Portal Tutoring
EMAIL: akp@...
Author of The Demmies: http://www.dldbooks.com/annparsons/
Portal Tutoring web site: http://www.portaltutoring.info
Skype: Putertutor

"All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost."


Re: number of people acceptable to keep everyone unmuted during a meeting?

Pamela Dominguez
 

In a normal email, if the person answers the person’s questions, you can see what they are responding to under the response.  That’s why it’s not good if people only post a response without the message that’s being responded to underneath.  Pam.
 

Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2020 6:41 PM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] number of people acceptable to keep everyone unmuted during a meeting?
 

Here is a case in point. If Brian had not placed Pamelas last comment before his post I’d have had no idea what the hell he was responding to.

 

Chris Judge

JAWS Certified, 2020

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: August 26, 2020 12:13 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] number of people acceptable to keep everyone unmuted during a meeting?

 

On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 10:57 AM, Pamela Dominguez wrote:

And some of us don't bother to look,

-
And, m'dear, that's your problem, not mine.  A number of you need to get over the idea that others must do as you see fit, rather than as they see fit.  This will be my last comment on these inane demands that I conform to your preferences.  I'm sticking to mine.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.

        ~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com


Virus-free. www.avg.com


Re: number of people acceptable to keep everyone unmuted during a meeting?

Gene
 

It doesn't make any difference if you find the hyphhen or not. It is important to look around in such situations and see if there is a way to solve a ;problem in navigating text or a web page, etc. A sighted person just sees what is there. If you don't look around, you are needlessly putting yourself at a disadvantage.

First, it is clear just from reading the messages, that only a line or two of previous material is quoted. the next question is, if I start down arrowing from the beginning of the message, will I find something like a blank line or a line with no text but where nothing is announced between the quoted material and the message? Once you find this line in such cases, simply down arrow from the top, and sstop at that line or continue to the first line of the new material, then use read to end.

If you want to know what is on the silent line, you can check. There are times when it matters to know what is there, there are times when it doesn't matter, unless you are just curious. Whether you know what is there or not, if you can use something about what you find as a recurring thing to look for and use, you can use it. In this case, the only reason, aside from curiosity, to know what is on the line is in case you want to use search to find it. But in this case there's no point. If you had to down arrow six or eight or more lines, searching for a hyphen might be more efficient enough to matter. Here, the process of moving down by line doesn't take longer enough to worry about. It is, in mhy opinion, better in this case just to hear the first line to see if it contains a new message or quoted material, then down arrow to the silent line or start of the new material. the most efficient way to do this is to press up arrow, that will read the top line even if you are already on it, at least it does on my screen-reader, then when you have heard it or part of it, down arrow to where you want to use read to end.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Pamela Dominguez
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2020 7:46 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] number of people acceptable to keep everyone unmuted during a meeting?

How are you supposed to find the hyphen unless you turn on say all
punctuation? Pam.

-----Original Message-----
From: Ann Parsons
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2020 4:33 PM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] number of people acceptable to keep everyone unmuted
during a meeting?

Hi all,

At least we know now to look for the hyphen. I would respectfully
suggest that if Brian encounters any more flack for his way of posting,
he merely say that if one looks for the hyphen on the blank line, all
is made clear. It's amazing what having information can accomplish.

Ann P.


Original message:

Hi Pam,
I know the majority of people prefer the response to be at the top of the message; this is especially true of blind persons.
Let’s be ok knowing that bottom posters are a small minority, on this list and most others.
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Pamela Dominguez
Sent: August 26, 2020 1:41 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] number of people acceptable to keep everyone unmuted during a meeting?
I like the message being replies to to be underneath, not a quote from the previous message in the current message. Pam.
From: chris judge <mailto:chrisjudge1967@...>
Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2020 6:45 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] number of people acceptable to keep everyone unmuted during a meeting?
I find this extremely helpful as well. The older I get the fewer functional cells I have in this hard drive that sits upon my neck. Having a quote from a previous message brings this old boy back on track.
Chris Judge
JAWS Certified, 2020 <http://www.freedomscientific.com/Certification>
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io> <main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io>> On Behalf Of David Goldfield
Sent: August 25, 2020 7:02 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] number of people acceptable to keep everyone unmuted during a meeting?
I'm a regular reader of Brian Vogel's posts on this as well as other lists. If he quoted several paragraphs of a person's message or even the entire message itself before posting a response I would agree that this would be problematic for some screen reader users. However, he usually just quotes one or two relevant sentences from the message to which he's responding followed by a hyphen. This is actually helpful as it can provide context as to the subject matter of his posts. If I've missed reading the original message but am curious about the topic this small quote gives me a good idea as to what, specifically, he's going to be writing about. If I'm responding to someone who may be asking several questions in one single message I will also quote each question, with my response below the question. There are several advantages to this method and I feel that this is also acceptable. There are definitely responsible and irresponsible ways to quote. Some are appropriate and can be very helpful. Others are unhelpful and are a waste of bandwidth. I feel that Brian's use of quoting is both responsible and more than acceptable.
David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist
www.DavidGoldfield.org <http://www.DavidGoldfield.org>
On 8/25/2020 12:08 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 11:50 AM, Ann Parsons wrote:
It is difficult for screen reader users to find where the current post starts.
-
No, it isn't. I routinely put a single hyphen, alone, on a line so that those who feel compelled to avoid hearing the tiny amount of material I quote can find where I begin responding. I post on many blind technology related groups, and it is a very small minority who complain as loudly or as long as you already have.
--
Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041
Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.
~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com
(image) <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient>
Virus-free. www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient>
--
Ann K. Parsons
Portal Tutoring
EMAIL: akp@...
Author of The Demmies: http://www.dldbooks.com/annparsons/
Portal Tutoring web site: http://www.portaltutoring.info
Skype: Putertutor

"All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost."




--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com


Re: number of people acceptable to keep everyone unmuted during a meeting?

Pamela Dominguez
 

How are you supposed to find the hyphen unless you turn on say all punctuation? Pam.

-----Original Message-----
From: Ann Parsons
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2020 4:33 PM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] number of people acceptable to keep everyone unmuted during a meeting?

Hi all,

At least we know now to look for the hyphen. I would respectfully
suggest that if Brian encounters any more flack for his way of posting,
he merely say that if one looks for the hyphen on the blank line, all
is made clear. It's amazing what having information can accomplish.

Ann P.


Original message:

Hi Pam,
I know the majority of people prefer the response to be at the top of the message; this is especially true of blind persons.
Let’s be ok knowing that bottom posters are a small minority, on this list and most others.
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Pamela Dominguez
Sent: August 26, 2020 1:41 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] number of people acceptable to keep everyone unmuted during a meeting?
I like the message being replies to to be underneath, not a quote from the previous message in the current message. Pam.
From: chris judge <mailto:chrisjudge1967@...>
Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2020 6:45 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] number of people acceptable to keep everyone unmuted during a meeting?
I find this extremely helpful as well. The older I get the fewer functional cells I have in this hard drive that sits upon my neck. Having a quote from a previous message brings this old boy back on track.
Chris Judge
JAWS Certified, 2020 <http://www.freedomscientific.com/Certification>
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io> <main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io>> On Behalf Of David Goldfield
Sent: August 25, 2020 7:02 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] number of people acceptable to keep everyone unmuted during a meeting?
I'm a regular reader of Brian Vogel's posts on this as well as other lists. If he quoted several paragraphs of a person's message or even the entire message itself before posting a response I would agree that this would be problematic for some screen reader users. However, he usually just quotes one or two relevant sentences from the message to which he's responding followed by a hyphen. This is actually helpful as it can provide context as to the subject matter of his posts. If I've missed reading the original message but am curious about the topic this small quote gives me a good idea as to what, specifically, he's going to be writing about. If I'm responding to someone who may be asking several questions in one single message I will also quote each question, with my response below the question. There are several advantages to this method and I feel that this is also acceptable. There are definitely responsible and irresponsible ways to quote. Some are appropriate and can be very helpful. Others are unhelpful and are a waste of bandwidth. I feel that Brian's use of quoting is both responsible and more than acceptable.
David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist
www.DavidGoldfield.org <http://www.DavidGoldfield.org>
On 8/25/2020 12:08 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 11:50 AM, Ann Parsons wrote:
It is difficult for screen reader users to find where the current post starts.
-
No, it isn't. I routinely put a single hyphen, alone, on a line so that those who feel compelled to avoid hearing the tiny amount of material I quote can find where I begin responding. I post on many blind technology related groups, and it is a very small minority who complain as loudly or as long as you already have.
--
Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041
Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.
~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com
(image) <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient>
Virus-free. www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient>
--
Ann K. Parsons
Portal Tutoring
EMAIL: akp@...
Author of The Demmies: http://www.dldbooks.com/annparsons/
Portal Tutoring web site: http://www.portaltutoring.info
Skype: Putertutor

"All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost."




--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com


Re: how does one make edge look like internet explorer?

Gene
 

In case the information is useful, I haven't used JAWS to any extent for years and I haven't updated it. I still have 13.x and I tried it with Chrome. I'm using Windows 7. I'm not sure such an old version of JAWS will be at all useful in Windows 10. but since there are still people using Windows 7, you don't have to keep using Internet Explorer because you have a version of JAWS as old as 13.x. Chrome works very well with 13.x.

You can't use Firefox but you can use Chrome.
Also, I tried Brave but very little. the page I looked at might not have displayed quite correctly but it may not matter much. After I saw a little odd material at the top, I looked down the page a way and it seemed to display properly or just about properly.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Gene
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2020 2:16 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] how does one make edge look like internet explorer?

What does the person want to do? In Firefox, Brave or Chrome, browsing is
almost exactly the same. If the person wants to learn how to work with
settings or the interface, they have to learn more. If not, it may be that
they may need to learn little or almost nothing.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: heather albright
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2020 12:18 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] how does one make edge look like internet explorer?

I was searching for a friend who is reluctant to move on. It is like pulling
teeth so, I was trying to make the path to useing a different browser
easier. But, I think I will continue to insist that they use firefox or
brave. They already know how to use firefox but they are still using seven
woe! Thanks for the info I appreciate it! cheers Heather
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
To: <main@TechTalk.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2020 12:00 PM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] how does one make edge look like internet explorer?


When I saw your question, I looked up information.
https://www.onmsft.com/how-to/how-to-enable-and-use-internet-explorer-mode-in-the-new-microsoft-edge
If this is what you are discussing, it appears it won't make Edge look like Internet Explorer in terms of giving it an Internet Explorer interface. It will allow it to run in IE compatibility mode whenever you run it without you having to change it. that will allow some wehb sites to run that are compatible with Internet Explorer and not with Chrome, but my impression is that ehse are business sites and the general user will seldom run across such sites. I doubt most people that aren't working in business or institutions would benefit from making this change and I'm not sure if you can. This article says something like If you are in a business, you can do this, which implies that the general user can't.

I don't know how much you know about working with Chrome but for many people, there shouldn't be that much to learn. If you tell us what you are having problems with we can discuss it.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: heather albright
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2020 11:32 AM
To: TechTalk@groups.io
Subject: [TechTalk] how does one make edge look like internet explorer?


Hello, I saw off google that one can make edge look like IE however, i could not find the steps to do this without having to click the mouse and drag etc. So my questions are, does this work with the knew edge?The articles I came across did not say wich edge this works with. I am thinking about those who are trying to transition away from IE; just trying to make it easier. Thanks for any info, cheers Heather