Topics

Giving Up on Thunderbird!


Rich DeSteno
 

It has been many months now that the Thunderbird email program has been very difficult to use with a screen-reading program. Prior to that, I used Thunderbird successfully for many years.  I mostly use NVDA with it.  For some months now, I often lose speech and the program slows down to an agonizing crawl.  The apparent downloading of email is announced one by one, choking off the speech you actually want to hear.  At times, I have not even been able to accomplish anything for many minutes due to these problems.  I disabled the mail and status toolbars, but that did not help.  Over the last day or two, it appears that the problem has gotten even worse.  Unless someone can suggest a solution to these problems, I am ready to give up on this program.  Thus, I would be interested in hearing recommendations for an email program that actually works well with screen-reading software, including NVDA.  Thanks.

--
Rich De Steno


Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

Have you tried doing a complete uninstall, restart, and reinstall?

When a series of atypical behaviors keeps building on itself, that's the first thing any technician will recommend.  And if you've been using a modern e-mail protocol like IMAP to access your messages you lose nothing in doing so, provided you've also synced your contacts and/or calendar.

I have seen very little change in the behavior of Thunderbird over the last several years in regard to how it behaves either with or without a screen reader.  I have seen isolated reports, such as yours, of major issues.  And if you want to even try to stay with Thunderbird "burning down the existing house" and rebuilding it by uninstalling completely and reinstalling would be the starting point.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.

        ~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com


Gene
 

I don't know why you are having the problem. Clearly, this isn't a general problem. If it was, there would be a lot of discussion from others long before now, as you say the problem has been going on for months. I've tried Thunderbird recently and have no such problems either with the current version or a recent version.
It sounds to me as though something has been corrupted. Rather than trouble shoot, you may want to try the portable version of the program. Or you may want to try uninstalling and reinstalling the program. I haven't done this, but I don't think your mail or addressbook will be lost. I don't know if anything else will such as add-ons or message rules.

The portable version has significant advantages and I think switching to it is a very good idea.

First, you can easily try different versions. You don't have to install and uninstall different versions, nothing is installed with the portable version. That's one of the main points of portable versions of programs, you can run them from anything, a thumb drive, an external hard drive, and on any machine you wish.

If something goes wrong with the program, you can delete the copy you are running, and copy a backup, which you have kept current, to the location you usually run the program from.

Also, if the program updates, you can still have the backup of the current version available. If you don't want to use the update, you can simply delete it and copy the backup of the old version to the location where you run the program from. Set the program not to automatically update, but to warn you when an update becomes available and let you choose whether to update to avoid the program you want to run as an older version from updating when you don't want it to. Make this change when you first install the program and it will be retained in future updates and in the backup copies you make.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Rich DeSteno
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2020 4:59 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: [TechTalk] Giving Up on Thunderbird!

It has been many months now that the Thunderbird email program has been
very difficult to use with a screen-reading program. Prior to that, I
used Thunderbird successfully for many years. I mostly use NVDA with
it. For some months now, I often lose speech and the program slows down
to an agonizing crawl. The apparent downloading of email is announced
one by one, choking off the speech you actually want to hear. At times,
I have not even been able to accomplish anything for many minutes due to
these problems. I disabled the mail and status toolbars, but that did
not help. Over the last day or two, it appears that the problem has
gotten even worse. Unless someone can suggest a solution to these
problems, I am ready to give up on this program. Thus, I would be
interested in hearing recommendations for an email program that actually
works well with screen-reading software, including NVDA. Thanks.

--
Rich De Steno


Gene
 

I didn't include the web page from which to get the portable version.
https://portableapps.com/apps/internet/thunderbird_portable

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Gene via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2020 6:02 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Giving Up on Thunderbird!

I don't know why you are having the problem. Clearly, this isn't a general
problem. If it was, there would be a lot of discussion from others long
before now, as you say the problem has been going on for months. I've tried
Thunderbird recently and have no such problems either with the current
version or a recent version.
It sounds to me as though something has been corrupted. Rather than trouble
shoot, you may want to try the portable version of the program. Or you may
want to try uninstalling and reinstalling the program. I haven't done this,
but I don't think your mail or addressbook will be lost. I don't know if
anything else will such as add-ons or message rules.

The portable version has significant advantages and I think switching to it
is a very good idea.

First, you can easily try different versions. You don't have to install and
uninstall different versions, nothing is installed with the portable
version. That's one of the main points of portable versions of programs,
you can run them from anything, a thumb drive, an external hard drive, and
on any machine you wish.

If something goes wrong with the program, you can delete the copy you are
running, and copy a backup, which you have kept current, to the location you
usually run the program from.

Also, if the program updates, you can still have the backup of the current
version available. If you don't want to use the update, you can simply
delete it and copy the backup of the old version to the location where you
run the program from. Set the program not to automatically update, but to
warn you when an update becomes available and let you choose whether to
update to avoid the program you want to run as an older version from
updating when you don't want it to. Make this change when you first install
the program and it will be retained in future updates and in the backup
copies you make.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Rich DeSteno
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2020 4:59 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: [TechTalk] Giving Up on Thunderbird!

It has been many months now that the Thunderbird email program has been
very difficult to use with a screen-reading program. Prior to that, I
used Thunderbird successfully for many years. I mostly use NVDA with
it. For some months now, I often lose speech and the program slows down
to an agonizing crawl. The apparent downloading of email is announced
one by one, choking off the speech you actually want to hear. At times,
I have not even been able to accomplish anything for many minutes due to
these problems. I disabled the mail and status toolbars, but that did
not help. Over the last day or two, it appears that the problem has
gotten even worse. Unless someone can suggest a solution to these
problems, I am ready to give up on this program. Thus, I would be
interested in hearing recommendations for an email program that actually
works well with screen-reading software, including NVDA. Thanks.

--
Rich De Steno


Troy Burnham
 

I'm using jaws and not NVDA but I have had a problem lately in thunderbird where while I'm in a message list I'll delete a message and jaws won't respond anymore. My fix is to arrow up and back down and this seems to fix it but it's not a permanent fix as it happens again maybe a few days later.

Also, once in a while I'll delete a message and jaws will say blank when I give the say line command to read the next message header, but I know the folder I'm in isn't empty. I have to shift tab out to my folder list and then tab back into the folder to get jaws to refocus.

It hasn't been that long that either of these things have been happening, and to my knowledge there has been no jaws or thunderbird updates to cause the problem.

I can live with the work-around, I only mentioned it in case somebody else is having one or both of these problems so you can try what works for me to see if it works for you.

Troy

On 9/29/2020 6:06 PM, Gene wrote:
I didn't include the web page from which to get the portable version.
https://portableapps.com/apps/internet/thunderbird_portable

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Gene via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2020 6:02 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Giving Up on Thunderbird!

I don't know why you are having the problem.  Clearly, this isn't a general
problem.  If it was, there would be a lot of discussion from others long
before now, as you say the problem has been going on for months. I've tried
Thunderbird recently and have no such problems either with the current
version or a recent version.
It sounds to me as though something has been corrupted.  Rather than trouble
shoot, you may want to try the portable version of the program. Or you may
want to try uninstalling and reinstalling the program.  I haven't done this,
but I don't think your mail or addressbook will be lost.  I don't know if
anything else will such as add-ons or message rules.

The portable version has significant advantages and I think switching to it
is a very good idea.

First, you can easily try different versions.  You don't have to install and
uninstall different versions, nothing is installed with the portable
version.  That's one of the main points of portable versions of programs,
you can run them from anything, a thumb drive, an external hard drive, and
on any machine you wish.

If something goes wrong with the program, you can delete the copy you are
running, and copy a backup, which you have kept current, to the location you
usually run the program from.

Also, if the program updates, you can still have the backup of the current
version available.  If you don't want to use the update, you can simply
delete it and copy the backup of the old version to the location where you
run the program from.  Set the program not to automatically update, but to
warn you when an update becomes available and let you choose whether to
update to avoid the program you want to run as an older version from
updating when you don't want it to.  Make this change when you first install
the program and it will be retained in future updates and in the backup
copies you make.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Rich DeSteno
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2020 4:59 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: [TechTalk] Giving Up on Thunderbird!

It has been many months now that the Thunderbird email program has been
very difficult to use with a screen-reading program. Prior to that, I
used Thunderbird successfully for many years.  I mostly use NVDA with
it.  For some months now, I often lose speech and the program slows down
to an agonizing crawl.  The apparent downloading of email is announced
one by one, choking off the speech you actually want to hear.  At times,
I have not even been able to accomplish anything for many minutes due to
these problems.  I disabled the mail and status toolbars, but that did
not help.  Over the last day or two, it appears that the problem has
gotten even worse.  Unless someone can suggest a solution to these
problems, I am ready to give up on this program.  Thus, I would be
interested in hearing recommendations for an email program that actually
works well with screen-reading software, including NVDA.  Thanks.


Gene
 

We don't know what version of Thunderbird you are using. it has recently been the case that Thunderbird has been updating people to version 78.x. I've said many times on different lists that I see no reason to update thunderbird if all people want to do is use it as an e-mail program. You night try going back a version or two and seeing if that solves the problem.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Troy Burnham
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2020 9:23 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Giving Up on Thunderbird!

I'm using jaws and not NVDA but I have had a problem lately in
thunderbird where while I'm in a message list I'll delete a message and
jaws won't respond anymore. My fix is to arrow up and back down and this
seems to fix it but it's not a permanent fix as it happens again maybe a
few days later.

Also, once in a while I'll delete a message and jaws will say blank when
I give the say line command to read the next message header, but I know
the folder I'm in isn't empty. I have to shift tab out to my folder list
and then tab back into the folder to get jaws to refocus.

It hasn't been that long that either of these things have been
happening, and to my knowledge there has been no jaws or thunderbird
updates to cause the problem.

I can live with the work-around, I only mentioned it in case somebody
else is having one or both of these problems so you can try what works
for me to see if it works for you.

Troy



On 9/29/2020 6:06 PM, Gene wrote:
I didn't include the web page from which to get the portable version.
https://portableapps.com/apps/internet/thunderbird_portable

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Gene via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2020 6:02 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Giving Up on Thunderbird!

I don't know why you are having the problem. Clearly, this isn't a general
problem. If it was, there would be a lot of discussion from others long
before now, as you say the problem has been going on for months. I've tried
Thunderbird recently and have no such problems either with the current
version or a recent version.
It sounds to me as though something has been corrupted. Rather than trouble
shoot, you may want to try the portable version of the program. Or you may
want to try uninstalling and reinstalling the program. I haven't done this,
but I don't think your mail or addressbook will be lost. I don't know if
anything else will such as add-ons or message rules.

The portable version has significant advantages and I think switching to it
is a very good idea.

First, you can easily try different versions. You don't have to install and
uninstall different versions, nothing is installed with the portable
version. That's one of the main points of portable versions of programs,
you can run them from anything, a thumb drive, an external hard drive, and
on any machine you wish.

If something goes wrong with the program, you can delete the copy you are
running, and copy a backup, which you have kept current, to the location you
usually run the program from.

Also, if the program updates, you can still have the backup of the current
version available. If you don't want to use the update, you can simply
delete it and copy the backup of the old version to the location where you
run the program from. Set the program not to automatically update, but to
warn you when an update becomes available and let you choose whether to
update to avoid the program you want to run as an older version from
updating when you don't want it to. Make this change when you first install
the program and it will be retained in future updates and in the backup
copies you make.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Rich DeSteno
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2020 4:59 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: [TechTalk] Giving Up on Thunderbird!

It has been many months now that the Thunderbird email program has been
very difficult to use with a screen-reading program. Prior to that, I
used Thunderbird successfully for many years. I mostly use NVDA with
it. For some months now, I often lose speech and the program slows down
to an agonizing crawl. The apparent downloading of email is announced
one by one, choking off the speech you actually want to hear. At times,
I have not even been able to accomplish anything for many minutes due to
these problems. I disabled the mail and status toolbars, but that did
not help. Over the last day or two, it appears that the problem has
gotten even worse. Unless someone can suggest a solution to these
problems, I am ready to give up on this program. Thus, I would be
interested in hearing recommendations for an email program that actually
works well with screen-reading software, including NVDA. Thanks.


Troy Burnham
 

I just checked and I'm using version 68.12 of thunderbird. I've heard all about 78 and am staying away from it, supposedly that version won't be offered yet through the program, supposedly you have to go download and install it yourself. I still keep a close eye on it just in case though.

Troy

On 9/29/2020 9:50 PM, Gene wrote:
We don't know what version of Thunderbird you are using.  it has recently been the case that Thunderbird has been updating people to version 78.x. I've said many times on different lists that I see no reason to update thunderbird if all people want to do is use it as an e-mail program.  You night try going back a version or two and seeing if that solves the problem.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Troy Burnham
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2020 9:23 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Giving Up on Thunderbird!

I'm using jaws and not NVDA but I have had a problem lately in
thunderbird where while I'm in a message list I'll delete a message and
jaws won't respond anymore. My fix is to arrow up and back down and this
seems to fix it but it's not a permanent fix as it happens again maybe a
few days later.

Also, once in a while I'll delete a message and jaws will say blank when
I give the say line command to read the next message header, but I know
the folder I'm in isn't empty. I have to shift tab out to my folder list
and then tab back into the folder to get jaws to refocus.

It hasn't been that long that either of these things have been
happening, and to my knowledge there has been no jaws or thunderbird
updates to cause the problem.

I can live with the work-around, I only mentioned it in case somebody
else is having one or both of these problems so you can try what works
for me to see if it works for you.

Troy



On 9/29/2020 6:06 PM, Gene wrote:
I didn't include the web page from which to get the portable version.
https://portableapps.com/apps/internet/thunderbird_portable

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Gene via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2020 6:02 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Giving Up on Thunderbird!

I don't know why you are having the problem.  Clearly, this isn't a general
problem.  If it was, there would be a lot of discussion from others long
before now, as you say the problem has been going on for months. I've tried
Thunderbird recently and have no such problems either with the current
version or a recent version.
It sounds to me as though something has been corrupted.  Rather than trouble
shoot, you may want to try the portable version of the program. Or you may
want to try uninstalling and reinstalling the program.  I haven't done this,
but I don't think your mail or addressbook will be lost.  I don't know if
anything else will such as add-ons or message rules.

The portable version has significant advantages and I think switching to it
is a very good idea.

First, you can easily try different versions.  You don't have to install and
uninstall different versions, nothing is installed with the portable
version.  That's one of the main points of portable versions of programs,
you can run them from anything, a thumb drive, an external hard drive, and
on any machine you wish.

If something goes wrong with the program, you can delete the copy you are
running, and copy a backup, which you have kept current, to the location you
usually run the program from.

Also, if the program updates, you can still have the backup of the current
version available.  If you don't want to use the update, you can simply
delete it and copy the backup of the old version to the location where you
run the program from.  Set the program not to automatically update, but to
warn you when an update becomes available and let you choose whether to
update to avoid the program you want to run as an older version from
updating when you don't want it to.  Make this change when you first install
the program and it will be retained in future updates and in the backup
copies you make.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Rich DeSteno
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2020 4:59 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: [TechTalk] Giving Up on Thunderbird!

It has been many months now that the Thunderbird email program has been
very difficult to use with a screen-reading program. Prior to that, I
used Thunderbird successfully for many years.  I mostly use NVDA with
it.  For some months now, I often lose speech and the program slows down
to an agonizing crawl.  The apparent downloading of email is announced
one by one, choking off the speech you actually want to hear. At times,
I have not even been able to accomplish anything for many minutes due to
these problems.  I disabled the mail and status toolbars, but that did
not help.  Over the last day or two, it appears that the problem has
gotten even worse.  Unless someone can suggest a solution to these
problems, I am ready to give up on this program.  Thus, I would be
interested in hearing recommendations for an email program that actually
works well with screen-reading software, including NVDA. Thanks.








Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 10:50 PM, Gene wrote:
I've said many times on different lists that I see no reason to update thunderbird if all people want to do is use it as an e-mail program.
-
Security, plain and simple.  Email clients are particularly juicy targets for nefarious actors.  It never makes sense to leave an email client that has newer updates running, period.  And there is not an IT professional who will ever say otherwise from the perspective of security (which is completely separate from accessibility, and accessibility is a valid consideration, but you need to think about how insecure you're willing to be with regard to programs commonly in contact with cyberspace).

No one ever proposes leaving a web browser that has newer versions un-updated, and for the very same reason.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.

        ~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com


Gene
 

Version 78.x, from my use, doesn't appear to have major or maybe not even much of minor problems now. It works well on my machine with NVDA.

One problem was that the add-on that allowed for first letter navigation hadn't been updated but it has been now and it works with 78.x. Its harder to find the button for setting which folders are displayed and not displayed, but I'm not sure if people use that feature to any extent.

I have no idea if updating or going back a version or two would solve your problems but that is one of the advantages of using the portable version. You can try different versions and still keep the version you are currently using on the machine.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Troy Burnham
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2020 10:00 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Giving Up on Thunderbird!

I just checked and I'm using version 68.12 of thunderbird. I've heard
all about 78 and am staying away from it, supposedly that version won't
be offered yet through the program, supposedly you have to go download
and install it yourself. I still keep a close eye on it just in case though.

Troy



On 9/29/2020 9:50 PM, Gene wrote:
We don't know what version of Thunderbird you are using. it has recently been the case that Thunderbird has been updating people to version 78.x. I've said many times on different lists that I see no reason to update thunderbird if all people want to do is use it as an e-mail program. You night try going back a version or two and seeing if that solves the problem.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Troy Burnham
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2020 9:23 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Giving Up on Thunderbird!

I'm using jaws and not NVDA but I have had a problem lately in
thunderbird where while I'm in a message list I'll delete a message and
jaws won't respond anymore. My fix is to arrow up and back down and this
seems to fix it but it's not a permanent fix as it happens again maybe a
few days later.

Also, once in a while I'll delete a message and jaws will say blank when
I give the say line command to read the next message header, but I know
the folder I'm in isn't empty. I have to shift tab out to my folder list
and then tab back into the folder to get jaws to refocus.

It hasn't been that long that either of these things have been
happening, and to my knowledge there has been no jaws or thunderbird
updates to cause the problem.

I can live with the work-around, I only mentioned it in case somebody
else is having one or both of these problems so you can try what works
for me to see if it works for you.

Troy



On 9/29/2020 6:06 PM, Gene wrote:
I didn't include the web page from which to get the portable version.
https://portableapps.com/apps/internet/thunderbird_portable

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Gene via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2020 6:02 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Giving Up on Thunderbird!

I don't know why you are having the problem. Clearly, this isn't a general
problem. If it was, there would be a lot of discussion from others long
before now, as you say the problem has been going on for months. I've tried
Thunderbird recently and have no such problems either with the current
version or a recent version.
It sounds to me as though something has been corrupted. Rather than trouble
shoot, you may want to try the portable version of the program. Or you may
want to try uninstalling and reinstalling the program. I haven't done this,
but I don't think your mail or addressbook will be lost. I don't know if
anything else will such as add-ons or message rules.

The portable version has significant advantages and I think switching to it
is a very good idea.

First, you can easily try different versions. You don't have to install and
uninstall different versions, nothing is installed with the portable
version. That's one of the main points of portable versions of programs,
you can run them from anything, a thumb drive, an external hard drive, and
on any machine you wish.

If something goes wrong with the program, you can delete the copy you are
running, and copy a backup, which you have kept current, to the location you
usually run the program from.

Also, if the program updates, you can still have the backup of the current
version available. If you don't want to use the update, you can simply
delete it and copy the backup of the old version to the location where you
run the program from. Set the program not to automatically update, but to
warn you when an update becomes available and let you choose whether to
update to avoid the program you want to run as an older version from
updating when you don't want it to. Make this change when you first install
the program and it will be retained in future updates and in the backup
copies you make.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Rich DeSteno
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2020 4:59 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: [TechTalk] Giving Up on Thunderbird!

It has been many months now that the Thunderbird email program has been
very difficult to use with a screen-reading program. Prior to that, I
used Thunderbird successfully for many years. I mostly use NVDA with
it. For some months now, I often lose speech and the program slows down
to an agonizing crawl. The apparent downloading of email is announced
one by one, choking off the speech you actually want to hear. At times,
I have not even been able to accomplish anything for many minutes due to
these problems. I disabled the mail and status toolbars, but that did
not help. Over the last day or two, it appears that the problem has
gotten even worse. Unless someone can suggest a solution to these
problems, I am ready to give up on this program. Thus, I would be
interested in hearing recommendations for an email program that actually
works well with screen-reading software, including NVDA. Thanks.









Dave
 

Hello Troy,


I too get some weird things happening while using JAWS, the latest
edition and update), and Thunderbird.


It doesn't happen very often, so I don't blame either program, as I can
never tell if it is Thunderbird, or JAWS that is having the problem.


Refreshing the Screen might work, I just forget what the command to
Refresh is, so I usually just press Alt-Tab and back again.


Doing this sometimes fixes the issue.  Other times it seems that either
JAWS or Thurnderbird is Dead, but I can't tell.  Was it Thunderbird that
crashed and took JAWS down with it, or is Thunderbird fine, but JAWS
just quit talking for some reason.


I do use NVDA, and in fact, I've been using NVDA more lately just
because it doesn't lose focus as often as Jaws does on my System.


I still believe JAWS reds more than NVDA, but right now, today, I seem
to be having less stress with NVDA.


When it comes to using a Screen Reader with Excel, I use NVDA most of
the time.  I just find JAWS does not track moving from Cell to Cell as
well, nor does it consistantly read Formulas and Error messages.


Just my 2 Cents worth.


Grumpy Dave

On 9/29/2020 7:23 PM, Troy Burnham wrote:

I'm using jaws and not NVDA but I have had a problem lately in
thunderbird where while I'm in a message list I'll delete a message
and jaws won't respond anymore. My fix is to arrow up and back down
and this seems to fix it but it's not a permanent fix as it happens
again maybe a few days later.

Also, once in a while I'll delete a message and jaws will say blank
when I give the say line command to read the next message header, but
I know the folder I'm in isn't empty. I have to shift tab out to my
folder list and then tab back into the folder to get jaws to refocus.

It hasn't been that long that either of these things have been
happening, and to my knowledge there has been no jaws or thunderbird
updates to cause the problem.

I can live with the work-around, I only mentioned it in case somebody
else is having one or both of these problems so you can try what works
for me to see if it works for you.

Troy



On 9/29/2020 6:06 PM, Gene wrote:
I didn't include the web page from which to get the portable version.
https://portableapps.com/apps/internet/thunderbird_portable

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Gene via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2020 6:02 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Giving Up on Thunderbird!

I don't know why you are having the problem.  Clearly, this isn't a
general
problem.  If it was, there would be a lot of discussion from others long
before now, as you say the problem has been going on for months. I've
tried
Thunderbird recently and have no such problems either with the current
version or a recent version.
It sounds to me as though something has been corrupted.  Rather than
trouble
shoot, you may want to try the portable version of the program. Or
you may
want to try uninstalling and reinstalling the program.  I haven't
done this,
but I don't think your mail or addressbook will be lost.  I don't
know if
anything else will such as add-ons or message rules.

The portable version has significant advantages and I think switching
to it
is a very good idea.

First, you can easily try different versions.  You don't have to
install and
uninstall different versions, nothing is installed with the portable
version.  That's one of the main points of portable versions of
programs,
you can run them from anything, a thumb drive, an external hard
drive, and
on any machine you wish.

If something goes wrong with the program, you can delete the copy you
are
running, and copy a backup, which you have kept current, to the
location you
usually run the program from.

Also, if the program updates, you can still have the backup of the
current
version available.  If you don't want to use the update, you can simply
delete it and copy the backup of the old version to the location
where you
run the program from.  Set the program not to automatically update,
but to
warn you when an update becomes available and let you choose whether to
update to avoid the program you want to run as an older version from
updating when you don't want it to.  Make this change when you first
install
the program and it will be retained in future updates and in the backup
copies you make.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Rich DeSteno
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2020 4:59 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: [TechTalk] Giving Up on Thunderbird!

It has been many months now that the Thunderbird email program has been
very difficult to use with a screen-reading program. Prior to that, I
used Thunderbird successfully for many years.  I mostly use NVDA with
it.  For some months now, I often lose speech and the program slows down
to an agonizing crawl.  The apparent downloading of email is announced
one by one, choking off the speech you actually want to hear. At times,
I have not even been able to accomplish anything for many minutes due to
these problems.  I disabled the mail and status toolbars, but that did
not help.  Over the last day or two, it appears that the problem has
gotten even worse.  Unless someone can suggest a solution to these
problems, I am ready to give up on this program.  Thus, I would be
interested in hearing recommendations for an email program that actually
works well with screen-reading software, including NVDA. Thanks.




Gene
 

You may correct me if I'm wrong on these points or disagree, but for one thing, some people are still using Outlook Express and I've never once heard of someone being hacked simply by opening a message.

Second, I really doubt that malware developers bother targeting e-mail programs with malicious code. I haven't heard about any such attacks for so long I don't recall when I may have heard of one last. The advice, as good now as it ever was, to not open attachments unless you are sure they are safe is still as good as ever. But why should developers target a number of e-mail programs with exploits that either won't work or will only work with this or that program when phishing and social engineering are so much more effective and so much cheaper and easier to do. Convincing someone to open an attachment or that they need to go to a web site to check on something they have purchased and providing a malicious link to a fraudulent web site are the kinds of things done now.

In short, without real evidence, I remain extremely skeptical that it is dangerous to run an old version of an e-mail program.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2020 10:07 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Giving Up on Thunderbird!

On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 10:50 PM, Gene wrote:
I've said many times on different lists that I see no reason to update thunderbird if all people want to do is use it as an e-mail program.-
Security, plain and simple. Email clients are particularly juicy targets for nefarious actors. It never makes sense to leave an email client that has newer updates running, period. And there is not an IT professional who will ever say otherwise from the perspective of security (which is completely separate from accessibility, and accessibility is a valid consideration, but you need to think about how insecure you're willing to be with regard to programs commonly in contact with cyberspace).

No one ever proposes leaving a web browser that has newer versions un-updated, and for the very same reason.

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.

~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com


Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 11:28 PM, Gene wrote:
You may correct me if I'm wrong on these points or disagree
-
I am not going to, because you are entirely capable of doing a web search on "email client attacks" or "email attack surfaces" or similar to get reams of documentation on what has been going on for years.

I'm not going to tell anyone they must do anything.  I'm also not going to tell them that leaving web browsers or email clients in an un-updated state is a wise or safe thing to do, because it isn't.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.

        ~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com


Ron Canazzi
 

Hi Rich,

I am using Thunderbird 78.2.2 32 bit latest release with NVDA 2020 latest version and Windows 10 version 2004 latest build and I have absolutely none of the problems you are having.  I am even able to use the Thunderbird add on quick folder key navigation with no problem.

I am wondering what version of NVDA, Thunderbird and Windows you are using.

On 9/29/2020 5:59 PM, Rich DeSteno wrote:
It has been many months now that the Thunderbird email program has been very difficult to use with a screen-reading program. Prior to that, I used Thunderbird successfully for many years.  I mostly use NVDA with it.  For some months now, I often lose speech and the program slows down to an agonizing crawl.  The apparent downloading of email is announced one by one, choking off the speech you actually want to hear.  At times, I have not even been able to accomplish anything for many minutes due to these problems.  I disabled the mail and status toolbars, but that did not help.  Over the last day or two, it appears that the problem has gotten even worse.  Unless someone can suggest a solution to these problems, I am ready to give up on this program.  Thus, I would be interested in hearing recommendations for an email program that actually works well with screen-reading software, including NVDA.  Thanks.
--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Gene
 

If we were talking about browsers, I would agree not to run old ones.
I did e-mail searches and found very little supporting your position. Almost everything I fouhnd talked about phishihng and social engineering. I did find one discussion about a truly archaic version of Outlook, Outlook 2000 and I found a few general statements about unpatched exploits but almost nothing, thus leading me to continue to believe what I believed before, that exploits in e-mail programs are not generally used in attacks these days.

This discussion, talking about a really archaic version of Outlook has content that may support your contention, but I found almost no other discussion of the question in a search for is it dangerous to use an old version of an e-mail program. And note that this discussion doesn't say that to any of the participants' knowledge, anyone has been hacked through this truly archaic version of Outlook by the use of unpatched exploits It simply says that this or that can be done..
https://security.stackexchange.com/questions/112342/how-vulnerable-is-an-older-version-of-outlook-as-an-email-application

I'm not saying what you say is wrong, but until I get good evidence otherwise, I shall continue to hold my views, that ((1) there is no interest in attacking people through malicious code these days in e-mails and that (2) being on lists like this for years and not having seen one message from anyone about being attacked in other ways than by phishing and social engineering and that 3) the links for about fifteen results I read, I read the links, I didn't go to the pages, but the links don't mention embedded code, they discuss phishing and other forms of social engineering, all this is, in my opinion, strong evidence that I am correct.

I'm not telling anyone they must do anything, either. I'm presenting the reasons I believe I am correct.

Here is the link to one of the searches I did. It was worded about like this:
Are e-mails with malicious code common in 2020

You may see the results. I've looked at the links to something like fifteen results and they all deal with attacks such as phishing and no links mention messages with embedded malicious code.
https://www.google.com/search?gbv=1&q=are+e-mails+with+malicious+code+common+in+2020re+malicious+e-mails+common+in+2020&oq=&aqs=

As I said, I looked at the links themselves, I didn't go to the pages.

If you have good evidence to show that I am or have a reasonable chance of being wrong, that's fine. You have more technical knowledge than I do and you may find such information. I shall continue to believe I am correct unless I see convincing information.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2020 10:42 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Giving Up on Thunderbird!

On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 11:28 PM, Gene wrote:
You may correct me if I'm wrong on these points or disagree-
I am not going to, because you are entirely capable of doing a web search on "email client attacks" or "email attack surfaces" or similar to get reams of documentation on what has been going on for years.

I'm not going to tell anyone they must do anything. I'm also not going to tell them that leaving web browsers or email clients in an un-updated state is a wise or safe thing to do, because it isn't.

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.

~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com


Ron Canazzi
 

Hi Gene,

If what you are saying is true then my question is why do software companies--even free ones like Mozilla--always mention security as well as efficiency and functionality when they announce a new update. I could understand if the only companies doing this were for profit, but Mozilla is a free download.  What is in it for them to announce that a particular update is a security and efficiency update?

On 9/30/2020 1:09 AM, Gene wrote:
If we were talking about browsers, I would agree not to run old ones.
I did e-mail searches and found very little supporting your position. Almost everything I fouhnd talked about phishihng and social engineering.  I did find one discussion about a truly archaic version of Outlook, Outlook 2000 and I found a few general statements about unpatched exploits but almost nothing, thus leading me to continue to believe what I believed before, that exploits in e-mail programs are not generally used in attacks these days.

This discussion, talking about a really archaic version of Outlook has content that may support your contention, but I found almost no other discussion of the question in a search for is it dangerous to use an old version of an e-mail program.  And note that this discussion doesn't say that to any of the participants' knowledge, anyone has been hacked through this truly archaic version of Outlook by the use of unpatched exploits  It simply says that this or that can be done..
https://security.stackexchange.com/questions/112342/how-vulnerable-is-an-older-version-of-outlook-as-an-email-application

I'm not saying what you say is wrong, but until I get good evidence otherwise, I shall continue to hold my views, that ((1) there is no interest in attacking people through malicious code these days in e-mails and that (2) being on lists like this for years and not having seen one message from anyone about being attacked in other ways than by phishing and social engineering and that 3) the links for about fifteen results I read, I read the links, I didn't go to the pages, but the links don't mention embedded code, they discuss phishing and other forms of social engineering, all this is, in my opinion, strong evidence that I am correct.

I'm not telling anyone they must do anything, either.  I'm presenting the reasons I believe I am correct.

Here is the link to one of the searches I did.  It was worded about like this:
Are e-mails with malicious code common in 2020

You may see the results.  I've looked at the links to something like fifteen results and they all deal with attacks such as phishing and no links mention messages with embedded malicious code.
https://www.google.com/search?gbv=1&q=are+e-mails+with+malicious+code+common+in+2020re+malicious+e-mails+common+in+2020&oq=&aqs=

As I said, I looked at the links themselves, I didn't go to the pages.

If you have good evidence to show that I am or have a reasonable chance of being wrong, that's fine.  You have more technical knowledge than I do and you may find such information.  I shall continue to believe I am correct unless I see convincing information.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2020 10:42 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Giving Up on Thunderbird!

On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 11:28 PM, Gene wrote:
You may correct me if I'm wrong on these points or disagree-
I am not going to, because you are entirely capable of doing a web search on "email client attacks" or "email attack surfaces" or similar to get reams of documentation on what has been going on for years.

I'm not going to tell anyone they must do anything.  I'm also not going to tell them that leaving web browsers or email clients in an un-updated state is a wise or safe thing to do, because it isn't.
--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Gerald Levy
 


Mozilla seems to have a peculiar obsession with security. They are constantly releasing new versions of Firefox and Thunderbird which are purported to be "more secure" than previous versions, but of course, there is really no way to substantiate their claims aside from taking their word for it. I suspect that they use their claims of improved security to justify their ambitious release schedule, a strategy which has largely backfired, because Firefox has experienced a steep decline in share of the browser market.  


Gerald



On 9/30/2020 7:28 AM, Ron Canazzi wrote:
Hi Gene,

If what you are saying is true then my question is why do software companies--even free ones like Mozilla--always mention security as well as efficiency and functionality when they announce a new update. I could understand if the only companies doing this were for profit, but Mozilla is a free download.  What is in it for them to announce that a particular update is a security and efficiency update?


On 9/30/2020 1:09 AM, Gene wrote:
If we were talking about browsers, I would agree not to run old ones.
I did e-mail searches and found very little supporting your position. Almost everything I fouhnd talked about phishihng and social engineering.  I did find one discussion about a truly archaic version of Outlook, Outlook 2000 and I found a few general statements about unpatched exploits but almost nothing, thus leading me to continue to believe what I believed before, that exploits in e-mail programs are not generally used in attacks these days.

This discussion, talking about a really archaic version of Outlook has content that may support your contention, but I found almost no other discussion of the question in a search for is it dangerous to use an old version of an e-mail program.  And note that this discussion doesn't say that to any of the participants' knowledge, anyone has been hacked through this truly archaic version of Outlook by the use of unpatched exploits  It simply says that this or that can be done..
https://security.stackexchange.com/questions/112342/how-vulnerable-is-an-older-version-of-outlook-as-an-email-application

I'm not saying what you say is wrong, but until I get good evidence otherwise, I shall continue to hold my views, that ((1) there is no interest in attacking people through malicious code these days in e-mails and that (2) being on lists like this for years and not having seen one message from anyone about being attacked in other ways than by phishing and social engineering and that 3) the links for about fifteen results I read, I read the links, I didn't go to the pages, but the links don't mention embedded code, they discuss phishing and other forms of social engineering, all this is, in my opinion, strong evidence that I am correct.

I'm not telling anyone they must do anything, either.  I'm presenting the reasons I believe I am correct.

Here is the link to one of the searches I did.  It was worded about like this:
Are e-mails with malicious code common in 2020

You may see the results.  I've looked at the links to something like fifteen results and they all deal with attacks such as phishing and no links mention messages with embedded malicious code.
https://www.google.com/search?gbv=1&q=are+e-mails+with+malicious+code+common+in+2020re+malicious+e-mails+common+in+2020&oq=&aqs=

As I said, I looked at the links themselves, I didn't go to the pages.

If you have good evidence to show that I am or have a reasonable chance of being wrong, that's fine.  You have more technical knowledge than I do and you may find such information.  I shall continue to believe I am correct unless I see convincing information.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2020 10:42 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Giving Up on Thunderbird!

On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 11:28 PM, Gene wrote:
You may correct me if I'm wrong on these points or disagree-
I am not going to, because you are entirely capable of doing a web search on "email client attacks" or "email attack surfaces" or similar to get reams of documentation on what has been going on for years.

I'm not going to tell anyone they must do anything.  I'm also not going to tell them that leaving web browsers or email clients in an un-updated state is a wise or safe thing to do, because it isn't.



Ron Canazzi
 

Hi Gerald,

It still doesn't explain what's in it for the distributors of free software. Undoubtedly, those people are taking significant numbers of man hours to develop these new releases.  They rely on donations to get their remuneration.  This is always  a dicey proposition at best.  If they were all making it up, it would seem to be counter productive. If there are really no significant security issues with mail programs, Why not just release periodic updates for new features?  They must be onto something.



On 9/30/2020 8:16 AM, Gerald Levy via groups.io wrote:


Mozilla seems to have a peculiar obsession with security. They are constantly releasing new versions of Firefox and Thunderbird which are purported to be "more secure" than previous versions, but of course, there is really no way to substantiate their claims aside from taking their word for it. I suspect that they use their claims of improved security to justify their ambitious release schedule, a strategy which has largely backfired, because Firefox has experienced a steep decline in share of the browser market.  


Gerald



On 9/30/2020 7:28 AM, Ron Canazzi wrote:
Hi Gene,

If what you are saying is true then my question is why do software companies--even free ones like Mozilla--always mention security as well as efficiency and functionality when they announce a new update. I could understand if the only companies doing this were for profit, but Mozilla is a free download.  What is in it for them to announce that a particular update is a security and efficiency update?


On 9/30/2020 1:09 AM, Gene wrote:
If we were talking about browsers, I would agree not to run old ones.
I did e-mail searches and found very little supporting your position. Almost everything I fouhnd talked about phishihng and social engineering.  I did find one discussion about a truly archaic version of Outlook, Outlook 2000 and I found a few general statements about unpatched exploits but almost nothing, thus leading me to continue to believe what I believed before, that exploits in e-mail programs are not generally used in attacks these days.

This discussion, talking about a really archaic version of Outlook has content that may support your contention, but I found almost no other discussion of the question in a search for is it dangerous to use an old version of an e-mail program.  And note that this discussion doesn't say that to any of the participants' knowledge, anyone has been hacked through this truly archaic version of Outlook by the use of unpatched exploits  It simply says that this or that can be done..
https://security.stackexchange.com/questions/112342/how-vulnerable-is-an-older-version-of-outlook-as-an-email-application

I'm not saying what you say is wrong, but until I get good evidence otherwise, I shall continue to hold my views, that ((1) there is no interest in attacking people through malicious code these days in e-mails and that (2) being on lists like this for years and not having seen one message from anyone about being attacked in other ways than by phishing and social engineering and that 3) the links for about fifteen results I read, I read the links, I didn't go to the pages, but the links don't mention embedded code, they discuss phishing and other forms of social engineering, all this is, in my opinion, strong evidence that I am correct.

I'm not telling anyone they must do anything, either.  I'm presenting the reasons I believe I am correct.

Here is the link to one of the searches I did.  It was worded about like this:
Are e-mails with malicious code common in 2020

You may see the results.  I've looked at the links to something like fifteen results and they all deal with attacks such as phishing and no links mention messages with embedded malicious code.
https://www.google.com/search?gbv=1&q=are+e-mails+with+malicious+code+common+in+2020re+malicious+e-mails+common+in+2020&oq=&aqs=

As I said, I looked at the links themselves, I didn't go to the pages.

If you have good evidence to show that I am or have a reasonable chance of being wrong, that's fine.  You have more technical knowledge than I do and you may find such information.  I shall continue to believe I am correct unless I see convincing information.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2020 10:42 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Giving Up on Thunderbird!

On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 11:28 PM, Gene wrote:
You may correct me if I'm wrong on these points or disagree-
I am not going to, because you are entirely capable of doing a web search on "email client attacks" or "email attack surfaces" or similar to get reams of documentation on what has been going on for years.

I'm not going to tell anyone they must do anything.  I'm also not going to tell them that leaving web browsers or email clients in an un-updated state is a wise or safe thing to do, because it isn't.



-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Gene
 

Thunderbird has lots of otherfeatures than e-mail, which is why I say, when I discuss the question of upgrading, that if you only use the program for e-mail, I don't think upgrading is necessary. I don't know about the other features of the program, so I don't say you shouldn't upgrade if you use those features.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Ron Canazzi
Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2020 6:28 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Giving Up on Thunderbird!

Hi Gene,

If what you are saying is true then my question is why do software
companies--even free ones like Mozilla--always mention security as well
as efficiency and functionality when they announce a new update. I could
understand if the only companies doing this were for profit, but Mozilla
is a free download. What is in it for them to announce that a
particular update is a security and efficiency update?


On 9/30/2020 1:09 AM, Gene wrote:
If we were talking about browsers, I would agree not to run old ones.
I did e-mail searches and found very little supporting your position. Almost everything I fouhnd talked about phishihng and social engineering. I did find one discussion about a truly archaic version of Outlook, Outlook 2000 and I found a few general statements about unpatched exploits but almost nothing, thus leading me to continue to believe what I believed before, that exploits in e-mail programs are not generally used in attacks these days.

This discussion, talking about a really archaic version of Outlook has content that may support your contention, but I found almost no other discussion of the question in a search for is it dangerous to use an old version of an e-mail program. And note that this discussion doesn't say that to any of the participants' knowledge, anyone has been hacked through this truly archaic version of Outlook by the use of unpatched exploits It simply says that this or that can be done..
https://security.stackexchange.com/questions/112342/how-vulnerable-is-an-older-version-of-outlook-as-an-email-application

I'm not saying what you say is wrong, but until I get good evidence otherwise, I shall continue to hold my views, that ((1) there is no interest in attacking people through malicious code these days in e-mails and that (2) being on lists like this for years and not having seen one message from anyone about being attacked in other ways than by phishing and social engineering and that 3) the links for about fifteen results I read, I read the links, I didn't go to the pages, but the links don't mention embedded code, they discuss phishing and other forms of social engineering, all this is, in my opinion, strong evidence that I am correct.

I'm not telling anyone they must do anything, either. I'm presenting the reasons I believe I am correct.

Here is the link to one of the searches I did. It was worded about like this:
Are e-mails with malicious code common in 2020

You may see the results. I've looked at the links to something like fifteen results and they all deal with attacks such as phishing and no links mention messages with embedded malicious code.
https://www.google.com/search?gbv=1&q=are+e-mails+with+malicious+code+common+in+2020re+malicious+e-mails+common+in+2020&oq=&aqs=

As I said, I looked at the links themselves, I didn't go to the pages.

If you have good evidence to show that I am or have a reasonable chance of being wrong, that's fine. You have more technical knowledge than I do and you may find such information. I shall continue to believe I am correct unless I see convincing information.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2020 10:42 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Giving Up on Thunderbird!

On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 11:28 PM, Gene wrote:
You may correct me if I'm wrong on these points or disagree-
I am not going to, because you are entirely capable of doing a web search on "email client attacks" or "email attack surfaces" or similar to get reams of documentation on what has been going on for years.

I'm not going to tell anyone they must do anything. I'm also not going to tell them that leaving web browsers or email clients in an un-updated state is a wise or safe thing to do, because it isn't.
--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Norman
 

I don't really think mozilla's release schedule has anything to do with the decline of there browser popularity. I think The main reason for this is that there browser is considered cluttered by a lot of people and because it's a little slower than brave/chrome/edge.

Brave and chrome have a release schedule that if anything is even faster than mozilla.


JMT.



On 9/30/2020 8:16 AM, Gerald Levy via groups.io wrote:


Mozilla seems to have a peculiar obsession with security. They are constantly releasing new versions of Firefox and Thunderbird which are purported to be "more secure" than previous versions, but of course, there is really no way to substantiate their claims aside from taking their word for it. I suspect that they use their claims of improved security to justify their ambitious release schedule, a strategy which has largely backfired, because Firefox has experienced a steep decline in share of the browser market.  


Gerald



On 9/30/2020 7:28 AM, Ron Canazzi wrote:
Hi Gene,

If what you are saying is true then my question is why do software companies--even free ones like Mozilla--always mention security as well as efficiency and functionality when they announce a new update. I could understand if the only companies doing this were for profit, but Mozilla is a free download.  What is in it for them to announce that a particular update is a security and efficiency update?


On 9/30/2020 1:09 AM, Gene wrote:
If we were talking about browsers, I would agree not to run old ones.
I did e-mail searches and found very little supporting your position. Almost everything I fouhnd talked about phishihng and social engineering.  I did find one discussion about a truly archaic version of Outlook, Outlook 2000 and I found a few general statements about unpatched exploits but almost nothing, thus leading me to continue to believe what I believed before, that exploits in e-mail programs are not generally used in attacks these days.

This discussion, talking about a really archaic version of Outlook has content that may support your contention, but I found almost no other discussion of the question in a search for is it dangerous to use an old version of an e-mail program.  And note that this discussion doesn't say that to any of the participants' knowledge, anyone has been hacked through this truly archaic version of Outlook by the use of unpatched exploits  It simply says that this or that can be done..
https://security.stackexchange.com/questions/112342/how-vulnerable-is-an-older-version-of-outlook-as-an-email-application

I'm not saying what you say is wrong, but until I get good evidence otherwise, I shall continue to hold my views, that ((1) there is no interest in attacking people through malicious code these days in e-mails and that (2) being on lists like this for years and not having seen one message from anyone about being attacked in other ways than by phishing and social engineering and that 3) the links for about fifteen results I read, I read the links, I didn't go to the pages, but the links don't mention embedded code, they discuss phishing and other forms of social engineering, all this is, in my opinion, strong evidence that I am correct.

I'm not telling anyone they must do anything, either.  I'm presenting the reasons I believe I am correct.

Here is the link to one of the searches I did.  It was worded about like this:
Are e-mails with malicious code common in 2020

You may see the results.  I've looked at the links to something like fifteen results and they all deal with attacks such as phishing and no links mention messages with embedded malicious code.
https://www.google.com/search?gbv=1&q=are+e-mails+with+malicious+code+common+in+2020re+malicious+e-mails+common+in+2020&oq=&aqs=

As I said, I looked at the links themselves, I didn't go to the pages.

If you have good evidence to show that I am or have a reasonable chance of being wrong, that's fine.  You have more technical knowledge than I do and you may find such information.  I shall continue to believe I am correct unless I see convincing information.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2020 10:42 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Giving Up on Thunderbird!

On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 11:28 PM, Gene wrote:
You may correct me if I'm wrong on these points or disagree-
I am not going to, because you are entirely capable of doing a web search on "email client attacks" or "email attack surfaces" or similar to get reams of documentation on what has been going on for years.

I'm not going to tell anyone they must do anything.  I'm also not going to tell them that leaving web browsers or email clients in an un-updated state is a wise or safe thing to do, because it isn't.



Gene
 

Also, compare these two ssearches:
I did a search for dangers of using old browser and found result after result.
I did a search for danger of using old e-mail program and found nothing in the first eight or nine results I looked at the links of and at times, at the excerpts below the links displayed by Google. I read parts of two articles whose titles and excerpts didn't definitely rule out what would be discussed. I didn't read the whole of either article, I skimmed part of one and read a few paragraphs of another. In neither case did I see any discussion, nor anything in what I read indicating that the dangers of using old e-mail programs would be discussed. One was about phishing and the other was about encryption.

I consider this more evidence to support my position. It is easy to find information about all sorts of phishing and other social engineering methods used to get people to take actions that give away personal information or lead them to install malware, such as running malicious attachments. I've found almost nothing about old e-mail programs and what I found hasn't said that the writer knows of reports of people being hacked through their e-mail program, only that one thing or another could happen.

Someone with more technical knowledge and more knowledge of spam and hacking may have information that contradicts what I'm saying or someone may find information I haven't, but so far, I've seen nothing that caused me to reconsider my opinion.

At the same time, I'll say that it performs a service if people use new versions of e-mail programs as they are released. it alerts users of accessibility or other problems regarding the program for those who use new versions and it makes it more likely the problems will be reported and corrected. My concern is for the person who wants predictability and not to possibly have problems after an upgrade. It depends what your goals are and the kind of user you are.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Gene
Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2020 8:24 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Giving Up on Thunderbird!

Thunderbird has lots of otherfeatures than e-mail, which is why I say, when
I discuss the question of upgrading, that if you only use the program for
e-mail, I don't think upgrading is necessary. I don't know about the other
features of the program, so I don't say you shouldn't upgrade if you use
those features.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Ron Canazzi
Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2020 6:28 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Giving Up on Thunderbird!

Hi Gene,

If what you are saying is true then my question is why do software
companies--even free ones like Mozilla--always mention security as well
as efficiency and functionality when they announce a new update. I could
understand if the only companies doing this were for profit, but Mozilla
is a free download. What is in it for them to announce that a
particular update is a security and efficiency update?


On 9/30/2020 1:09 AM, Gene wrote:
If we were talking about browsers, I would agree not to run old ones.
I did e-mail searches and found very little supporting your position. Almost everything I fouhnd talked about phishihng and social engineering. I did find one discussion about a truly archaic version of Outlook, Outlook 2000 and I found a few general statements about unpatched exploits but almost nothing, thus leading me to continue to believe what I believed before, that exploits in e-mail programs are not generally used in attacks these days.

This discussion, talking about a really archaic version of Outlook has content that may support your contention, but I found almost no other discussion of the question in a search for is it dangerous to use an old version of an e-mail program. And note that this discussion doesn't say that to any of the participants' knowledge, anyone has been hacked through this truly archaic version of Outlook by the use of unpatched exploits It simply says that this or that can be done..
https://security.stackexchange.com/questions/112342/how-vulnerable-is-an-older-version-of-outlook-as-an-email-application

I'm not saying what you say is wrong, but until I get good evidence otherwise, I shall continue to hold my views, that ((1) there is no interest in attacking people through malicious code these days in e-mails and that (2) being on lists like this for years and not having seen one message from anyone about being attacked in other ways than by phishing and social engineering and that 3) the links for about fifteen results I read, I read the links, I didn't go to the pages, but the links don't mention embedded code, they discuss phishing and other forms of social engineering, all this is, in my opinion, strong evidence that I am correct.

I'm not telling anyone they must do anything, either. I'm presenting the reasons I believe I am correct.

Here is the link to one of the searches I did. It was worded about like this:
Are e-mails with malicious code common in 2020

You may see the results. I've looked at the links to something like fifteen results and they all deal with attacks such as phishing and no links mention messages with embedded malicious code.
https://www.google.com/search?gbv=1&q=are+e-mails+with+malicious+code+common+in+2020re+malicious+e-mails+common+in+2020&oq=&aqs=

As I said, I looked at the links themselves, I didn't go to the pages.

If you have good evidence to show that I am or have a reasonable chance of being wrong, that's fine. You have more technical knowledge than I do and you may find such information. I shall continue to believe I am correct unless I see convincing information.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2020 10:42 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Giving Up on Thunderbird!

On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 11:28 PM, Gene wrote:
You may correct me if I'm wrong on these points or disagree-
I am not going to, because you are entirely capable of doing a web search on "email client attacks" or "email attack surfaces" or similar to get reams of documentation on what has been going on for years.

I'm not going to tell anyone they must do anything. I'm also not going to tell them that leaving web browsers or email clients in an un-updated state is a wise or safe thing to do, because it isn't.
--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"