Topics

Apple vs Windows?


Gene
 

Brian has left the list. He can dish it out, but what happens when he is criticized?

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Rob Hudson
Sent: Friday, November 20, 2020 10:38 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

You can give "wake up calls" without insults and snarkiness. As has been demonstrated by your posts here and elsewhere, you have a distinct lack of patience and very little tolerance. I understand that you are frustrated that people don't know what you know, or wish to adapt. But the tone of your posts is such that it sounds like: you are a stupid idiot refusing to see that things change.
It's a free country (well, mostly) and you can express yourself however you wish. But, I think Gene--and others as well--would prefer that you leave off the personal insults.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Vogel" <britechguy@gmail.com>
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 08:20:17 -0800
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 11:10 AM, Gene wrote:


Your post is verging on personally abusive and such posts will not be
allowed if continued in any regular or recurring pattern.
-
Gene, then I'll be happy to leave. There seems to be this notion that all assistance has to "be nice." Well, it doesn't, and very often, it shouldn't be. We're dealing with adults here, and elsewhere, and I expect that adults know that effort will be necessary to learn any thing, and also know and accept the following:

It is impossible to help individuals who will not listen to advice unless they like that advice. Being a good assistant is not about making the person assisted "feel good," but about both asking the right (and sometimes hard) questions as well as giving the information necessary to achieve the desired result. Getting help is a two-way street, and those asking for help have work they must do, too, when asked. They also need to be ready to let go of what they'd like to do, and instead do what's called for.

It is not possible to help those who don't want to "do what's called for." And, for the record, I'm not trying to "encourage people" in every instance, or even many instances. I'm trying to get them to actually do something they should have already been doing, and supplying the exact information they need to do it, which I did here.

Giving a well deserved wake-up call is not abusive, it's necessary in many cases. This is one of them.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

If your joy is derived from what society thinks of you, you're always going to be disappointed.

~ Madonna







chris judge
 

Good riddence.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: November 20, 2020 12:57 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

Brian has left the list. He can dish it out, but what happens when he is
criticized?

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Rob Hudson
Sent: Friday, November 20, 2020 10:38 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

You can give "wake up calls" without insults and snarkiness. As has been
demonstrated by your posts here and elsewhere, you have a distinct lack of
patience and very little tolerance. I understand that you are frustrated
that people don't know what you know, or wish to adapt. But the tone of your
posts is such that it sounds like: you are a stupid idiot refusing to see
that things change.
It's a free country (well, mostly) and you can express yourself however you
wish. But, I think Gene--and others as well--would prefer that you leave off
the personal insults.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Vogel" <britechguy@gmail.com>
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 08:20:17 -0800
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 11:10 AM, Gene wrote:


Your post is verging on personally abusive and such posts will not
be allowed if continued in any regular or recurring pattern.
-
Gene, then I'll be happy to leave. There seems to be this notion that
all assistance has to "be nice." Well, it doesn't, and very often, it
shouldn't be. We're dealing with adults here, and elsewhere, and I
expect that adults know that effort will be necessary to learn any
thing, and also know and accept the following:

It is impossible to help individuals who will not listen to advice
unless they like that advice. Being a good assistant is not about
making the person assisted "feel good," but about both asking the
right (and sometimes hard) questions as well as giving the information
necessary to achieve the desired result. Getting help is a two-way
street, and those asking for help have work they must do, too, when
asked. They also need to be ready to let go of what they'd like to do,
and instead do what's called for.

It is not possible to help those who don't want to "do what's called for."
And, for the record, I'm not trying to "encourage people" in every
instance, or even many instances. I'm trying to get them to actually
do something they should have already been doing, and supplying the
exact information they need to do it, which I did here.

Giving a well deserved wake-up call is not abusive, it's necessary in
many cases. This is one of them.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

If your joy is derived from what society thinks of you, you're always
going to be disappointed.

~ Madonna







Gerald Levy
 


I agree.  He has been a troublemaker on every list he has infiltrated.  Once again, it should be pointed out that much of his arrogance and disrespect stems from the fact that he is totally sighted and has little patience for dealing with fellow blind list members who lack his advanced level of expertise.


Gerald



On 11/20/2020 12:14 PM, chris judge wrote:
Good riddence.


-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: November 20, 2020 12:57 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

Brian has left the list.  He can dish it out, but what happens when he is
criticized?

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Rob Hudson
Sent: Friday, November 20, 2020 10:38 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

You can give "wake up calls" without insults and snarkiness. As has been
demonstrated by your posts here and elsewhere, you have a distinct lack of
patience and very little tolerance. I understand that you are frustrated
that people don't know what you know, or wish to adapt. But the tone of your
posts is such that it sounds like: you are a stupid idiot refusing to see
that things change.
It's a free country (well, mostly) and you can express yourself however you
wish. But, I think Gene--and others as well--would prefer that you leave off
the personal insults.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Vogel" <britechguy@...>
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 08:20:17 -0800
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 11:10 AM, Gene wrote:

Your post is verging on personally abusive and such posts will not 
be allowed if continued in any regular or recurring pattern.
-
Gene, then I'll be happy to leave.  There seems to be this notion that 
all assistance has to "be nice."  Well, it doesn't, and very often, it 
shouldn't be.  We're dealing with adults here, and elsewhere, and I 
expect that adults know that effort will be necessary to learn any 
thing, and also know and accept the following:

It is impossible to help individuals who will not listen to advice 
unless they like that advice. Being a good assistant is not about 
making the person assisted "feel good," but about both asking the 
right (and sometimes hard) questions as well as giving the information 
necessary to achieve the desired result. Getting help is a two-way 
street, and those asking for help have work they must do, too, when 
asked. They also need to be ready to let go of what they'd like to do, 
and instead do what's called for.

It is not possible to help those who don't want to "do what's called for."

      
And, for the record, I'm not trying to "encourage people" in every 
instance, or even many instances.  I'm trying to get them to actually 
do something they should have already been doing, and supplying the 
exact information they need to do it, which I did here.

Giving a well deserved wake-up call is not abusive, it's necessary in 
many cases.  This is one of them.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

If your joy is derived from what society thinks of you, you're always 
going to be disappointed.

~ Madonna






















Gene
 

It has nothing to do with whether he is sighted. it has to do with his expectations and not taking seriously that there are all sorts of blind people at all levels of knowledge. I've seen blind people who are critical and intolerant as well.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Gerald Levy via groups.io
Sent: Friday, November 20, 2020 11:32 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?






I agree. He has been a troublemaker on every list he has infiltrated. Once again, it should be pointed out that much of his arrogance and disrespect stems from the fact that he is totally sighted and has little patience for dealing with fellow blind list members who lack his advanced level of expertise.




Gerald








On 11/20/2020 12:14 PM, chris judge wrote:
Good riddence. -----Original Message----- From: main@TechTalk.groups.io mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io On Behalf Of Gene Sent: November 20, 2020 12:57 PM To: main@TechTalk.groups.io Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows? Brian has left the list. He can dish it out, but what happens when he is criticized? Gene -----Original Message----- From: Rob Hudson Sent: Friday, November 20, 2020 10:38 AM To: main@TechTalk.groups.io Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows? You can give "wake up calls" without insults and snarkiness. As has been demonstrated by your posts here and elsewhere, you have a distinct lack of patience and very little tolerance. I understand that you are frustrated that people don't know what you know, or wish to adapt. But the tone of your posts is such that it sounds like: you are a stupid idiot refusing to see that things change. It's a free country (well, mostly) and you can express yourself however you wish. But, I think Gene--and others as well--would prefer that you leave off the personal insults. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Vogel" mailto:britechguy@gmail.com To: main@TechTalk.groups.io Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 08:20:17 -0800 Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows? On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 11:10 AM, Gene wrote: Your post is verging on personally abusive and such posts will not be allowed if continued in any regular or recurring pattern. - Gene, then I'll be happy to leave. There seems to be this notion that all assistance has to "be nice." Well, it doesn't, and very often, it shouldn't be. We're dealing with adults here, and elsewhere, and I expect that adults know that effort will be necessary to learn any thing, and also know and accept the following: It is impossible to help individuals who will not listen to advice unless they like that advice. Being a good assistant is not about making the person assisted "feel good," but about both asking the right (and sometimes hard) questions as well as giving the information necessary to achieve the desired result. Getting help is a two-way street, and those asking for help have work they must do, too, when asked. They also need to be ready to let go of what they'd like to do, and instead do what's called for. It is not possible to help those who don't want to "do what's called for." And, for the record, I'm not trying to "encourage people" in every instance, or even many instances. I'm trying to get them to actually do something they should have already been doing, and supplying the exact information they need to do it, which I did here. Giving a well deserved wake-up call is not abusive, it's necessary in many cases. This is one of them. -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041 If your joy is derived from what society thinks of you, you're always going to be disappointed. ~ Madonna


Monte Single
 

No worries mates.
If you want to communicate with Brian, you can find him on the win10 list
and the nvda list, both of which are on @groups.io.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of chris
judge
Sent: November 20, 2020 11:14 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

Good riddence.


-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: November 20, 2020 12:57 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

Brian has left the list. He can dish it out, but what happens when he is
criticized?

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Rob Hudson
Sent: Friday, November 20, 2020 10:38 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

You can give "wake up calls" without insults and snarkiness. As has been
demonstrated by your posts here and elsewhere, you have a distinct lack of
patience and very little tolerance. I understand that you are frustrated
that people don't know what you know, or wish to adapt. But the tone of your
posts is such that it sounds like: you are a stupid idiot refusing to see
that things change.
It's a free country (well, mostly) and you can express yourself however you
wish. But, I think Gene--and others as well--would prefer that you leave off
the personal insults.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Vogel" <britechguy@gmail.com>
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 08:20:17 -0800
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 11:10 AM, Gene wrote:


Your post is verging on personally abusive and such posts will not
be allowed if continued in any regular or recurring pattern.
-
Gene, then I'll be happy to leave. There seems to be this notion that
all assistance has to "be nice." Well, it doesn't, and very often, it
shouldn't be. We're dealing with adults here, and elsewhere, and I
expect that adults know that effort will be necessary to learn any
thing, and also know and accept the following:

It is impossible to help individuals who will not listen to advice
unless they like that advice. Being a good assistant is not about
making the person assisted "feel good," but about both asking the
right (and sometimes hard) questions as well as giving the information
necessary to achieve the desired result. Getting help is a two-way
street, and those asking for help have work they must do, too, when
asked. They also need to be ready to let go of what they'd like to do,
and instead do what's called for.

It is not possible to help those who don't want to "do what's called for."
And, for the record, I'm not trying to "encourage people" in every
instance, or even many instances. I'm trying to get them to actually
do something they should have already been doing, and supplying the
exact information they need to do it, which I did here.

Giving a well deserved wake-up call is not abusive, it's necessary in
many cases. This is one of them.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

If your joy is derived from what society thinks of you, you're always
going to be disappointed.

~ Madonna







Ron Canazzi
 

Hi Group,

With all due respect, personal insults, intimidation and bombast should not be tolerated on a list by anyone.  This is up to the moderators to determine finally, but if it were up to me, such repetitions of such behavior should result in a permanent ban from this and any other lists.


On 11/20/2020 11:20 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 11:10 AM, Gene wrote:
Your post is verging on personally abusive and such posts will not be allowed if continued in any regular or recurring pattern.
-
Gene, then I'll be happy to leave.  There seems to be this notion that all assistance has to "be nice."  Well, it doesn't, and very often, it shouldn't be.  We're dealing with adults here, and elsewhere, and I expect that adults know that effort will be necessary to learn any thing, and also know and accept the following:

It is impossible to help individuals who will not listen to advice unless they like that advice. Being a good assistant is not about making the person assisted "feel good," but about both asking the right (and sometimes hard) questions as well as giving the information necessary to achieve the desired result. Getting help is a two-way street, and those asking for help have work they must do, too, when asked. They also need to be ready to let go of what they'd like to do, and instead do what's called for.

It is not possible to help those who don't want to "do what's called for."  And, for the record, I'm not trying to "encourage people" in every instance, or even many instances.  I'm trying to get them to actually do something they should have already been doing, and supplying the exact information they need to do it, which I did here.

Giving a well deserved wake-up call is not abusive, it's necessary in many cases.  This is one of them.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

If your joy is derived from what society thinks of you, you're always going to be disappointed.

        ~ Madonna


-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Ron Canazzi
 

Hi Gene,

I totally agree and BTW, I HATE! ribbons.  I learn to use them and hold my nose and my stomach and get by.

On 11/20/2020 11:53 AM, Gene wrote:
Why are you always threatening to leave?  Accusing someone of whining like a three year old is a violation of the lists rule against abusive messages and all other such lists I've been a member of have such rules as well.

You don't motivate people  to learn or to want to listen to what you are saying by insulting them.  Encouraging people to learn is one thing. Discussing the importance  or the benefits of learning ribbons is one thing. Saying that if you learn ribbons may help you have more confidence when learning something else that may appear difficult at first, is fine.  Saying someone is whining like a three year old is not.

Blind people come from all sorts of backgrounds.  Some have good training, some don't.  Some have more aptitude for learning computer-related concepts, and some people find learning computer-related things more difficult.

Some people come from backgrounds where family and friends have taught them not to have confidence.  Others come from backgrounds where they have been taught to have confidence.

If this were a rehabilitation facility, putting pressure on blind people  to learn certain skills would be necessary.  Some people would lack the confidence to learn without being put under some pressure to achieve so they see that they can.  But this and other such lists aren't rehabilitation institutions.  They are lists for learning and help.  Lists where blind people from all sorts of backgrounds, at all sorts of levels of knowledge gather to give and get help.  Encouragement is fine, not insults.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Friday, November 20, 2020 10:20 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 11:10 AM, Gene wrote:
Your post is verging on personally abusive and such posts will not be allowed if continued in any regular or recurring pattern.-
Gene, then I'll be happy to leave.  There seems to be this notion that all assistance has to "be nice."  Well, it doesn't, and very often, it shouldn't be.  We're dealing with adults here, and elsewhere, and I expect that adults know that effort will be necessary to learn any thing, and also know and accept the following:

It is impossible to help individuals who will not listen to advice unless they like that advice. Being a good assistant is not about making the person assisted "feel good," but about both asking the right (and sometimes hard) questions as well as giving the information necessary to achieve the desired result. Getting help is a two-way street, and those asking for help have work they must do, too, when asked. They also need to be ready to let go of what they'd like to do, and instead do what's called for.

It is not possible to help those who don't want to "do what's called for." And, for the record, I'm not trying to "encourage people" in every instance, or even many instances.  I'm trying to get them to actually do something they should have already been doing, and supplying the exact information they need to do it, which I did here.

Giving a well deserved wake-up call is not abusive, it's necessary in many cases.  This is one of them.
--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Steve Matzura
 

If your joy is derived from what society thinks of you, you're always going to be disappointed.

        ~ Madonna


Did she really say that? If so, then I have to raise my estimation of her a peg or three.


Gene
 

I know you didn't like them but I didn't know what you thought now.

I don't mind someone making a strong case or having a strong opinion, if they don't resort to personal attacks.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Ron Canazzi
Sent: Friday, November 20, 2020 2:45 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

Hi Gene,

I totally agree and BTW, I HATE! ribbons. I learn to use them and hold
my nose and my stomach and get by.


On 11/20/2020 11:53 AM, Gene wrote:
Why are you always threatening to leave? Accusing someone of whining like a three year old is a violation of the lists rule against abusive messages and all other such lists I've been a member of have such rules as well.

You don't motivate people to learn or to want to listen to what you are saying by insulting them. Encouraging people to learn is one thing. Discussing the importance or the benefits of learning ribbons is one thing. Saying that if you learn ribbons may help you have more confidence when learning something else that may appear difficult at first, is fine. Saying someone is whining like a three year old is not.

Blind people come from all sorts of backgrounds. Some have good training, some don't. Some have more aptitude for learning computer-related concepts, and some people find learning computer-related things more difficult.

Some people come from backgrounds where family and friends have taught them not to have confidence. Others come from backgrounds where they have been taught to have confidence.

If this were a rehabilitation facility, putting pressure on blind people to learn certain skills would be necessary. Some people would lack the confidence to learn without being put under some pressure to achieve so they see that they can. But this and other such lists aren't rehabilitation institutions. They are lists for learning and help. Lists where blind people from all sorts of backgrounds, at all sorts of levels of knowledge gather to give and get help. Encouragement is fine, not insults.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Friday, November 20, 2020 10:20 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 11:10 AM, Gene wrote:
Your post is verging on personally abusive and such posts will not be allowed if continued in any regular or recurring pattern.-
Gene, then I'll be happy to leave. There seems to be this notion that all assistance has to "be nice." Well, it doesn't, and very often, it shouldn't be. We're dealing with adults here, and elsewhere, and I expect that adults know that effort will be necessary to learn any thing, and also know and accept the following:

It is impossible to help individuals who will not listen to advice unless they like that advice. Being a good assistant is not about making the person assisted "feel good," but about both asking the right (and sometimes hard) questions as well as giving the information necessary to achieve the desired result. Getting help is a two-way street, and those asking for help have work they must do, too, when asked. They also need to be ready to let go of what they'd like to do, and instead do what's called for.

It is not possible to help those who don't want to "do what's called for." And, for the record, I'm not trying to "encourage people" in every instance, or even many instances. I'm trying to get them to actually do something they should have already been doing, and supplying the exact information they need to do it, which I did here.

Giving a well deserved wake-up call is not abusive, it's necessary in many cases. This is one of them.
--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


chris judge
 

I agree. I’m not even sure why he’s here.

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gerald Levy via groups.io
Sent: November 20, 2020 1:32 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

 

 

I agree.  He has been a troublemaker on every list he has infiltrated.  Once again, it should be pointed out that much of his arrogance and disrespect stems from the fact that he is totally sighted and has little patience for dealing with fellow blind list members who lack his advanced level of expertise.

 

Gerald

 

 

On 11/20/2020 12:14 PM, chris judge wrote:

Good riddence.
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: November 20, 2020 12:57 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?
 
Brian has left the list.  He can dish it out, but what happens when he is
criticized?
 
Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Rob Hudson
Sent: Friday, November 20, 2020 10:38 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?
 
You can give "wake up calls" without insults and snarkiness. As has been
demonstrated by your posts here and elsewhere, you have a distinct lack of
patience and very little tolerance. I understand that you are frustrated
that people don't know what you know, or wish to adapt. But the tone of your
posts is such that it sounds like: you are a stupid idiot refusing to see
that things change.
It's a free country (well, mostly) and you can express yourself however you
wish. But, I think Gene--and others as well--would prefer that you leave off
the personal insults.
 
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Vogel" <britechguy@...>
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 08:20:17 -0800
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?
 
On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 11:10 AM, Gene wrote:
 
 
Your post is verging on personally abusive and such posts will not 
be allowed if continued in any regular or recurring pattern.
 
-
Gene, then I'll be happy to leave.  There seems to be this notion that 
all assistance has to "be nice."  Well, it doesn't, and very often, it 
shouldn't be.  We're dealing with adults here, and elsewhere, and I 
expect that adults know that effort will be necessary to learn any 
thing, and also know and accept the following:
 
It is impossible to help individuals who will not listen to advice 
unless they like that advice. Being a good assistant is not about 
making the person assisted "feel good," but about both asking the 
right (and sometimes hard) questions as well as giving the information 
necessary to achieve the desired result. Getting help is a two-way 
street, and those asking for help have work they must do, too, when 
asked. They also need to be ready to let go of what they'd like to do, 
and instead do what's called for.
 
It is not possible to help those who don't want to "do what's called for."
 
And, for the record, I'm not trying to "encourage people" in every 
instance, or even many instances.  I'm trying to get them to actually 
do something they should have already been doing, and supplying the 
exact information they need to do it, which I did here.
 
Giving a well deserved wake-up call is not abusive, it's necessary in 
many cases.  This is one of them.
 
--
 
Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041
 
If your joy is derived from what society thinks of you, you're always 
going to be disappointed.
 
~ Madonna
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


Ekstrand, Pamela A. -ND
 

Hmm, isn’t this engaging in the same behavior?

 

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of chris judge via groups.io
Sent: Friday, November 20, 2020 6:20 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

 

I agree. I’m not even sure why he’s here.

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gerald Levy via groups.io
Sent: November 20, 2020 1:32 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

 

 

I agree.  He has been a troublemaker on every list he has infiltrated.  Once again, it should be pointed out that much of his arrogance and disrespect stems from the fact that he is totally sighted and has little patience for dealing with fellow blind list members who lack his advanced level of expertise.

 

Gerald

 

 

On 11/20/2020 12:14 PM, chris judge wrote:

Good riddence.
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: November 20, 2020 12:57 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?
 
Brian has left the list.  He can dish it out, but what happens when he is
criticized?
 
Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Rob Hudson
Sent: Friday, November 20, 2020 10:38 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?
 
You can give "wake up calls" without insults and snarkiness. As has been
demonstrated by your posts here and elsewhere, you have a distinct lack of
patience and very little tolerance. I understand that you are frustrated
that people don't know what you know, or wish to adapt. But the tone of your
posts is such that it sounds like: you are a stupid idiot refusing to see
that things change.
It's a free country (well, mostly) and you can express yourself however you
wish. But, I think Gene--and others as well--would prefer that you leave off
the personal insults.
 
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Vogel" <britechguy@...>
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 08:20:17 -0800
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?
 
On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 11:10 AM, Gene wrote:
 
 
Your post is verging on personally abusive and such posts will not 
be allowed if continued in any regular or recurring pattern.
 
-
Gene, then I'll be happy to leave.  There seems to be this notion that 
all assistance has to "be nice."  Well, it doesn't, and very often, it 
shouldn't be.  We're dealing with adults here, and elsewhere, and I 
expect that adults know that effort will be necessary to learn any 
thing, and also know and accept the following:
 
It is impossible to help individuals who will not listen to advice 
unless they like that advice. Being a good assistant is not about 
making the person assisted "feel good," but about both asking the 
right (and sometimes hard) questions as well as giving the information 
necessary to achieve the desired result. Getting help is a two-way 
street, and those asking for help have work they must do, too, when 
asked. They also need to be ready to let go of what they'd like to do, 
and instead do what's called for.
 
It is not possible to help those who don't want to "do what's called for."
 
And, for the record, I'm not trying to "encourage people" in every 
instance, or even many instances.  I'm trying to get them to actually 
do something they should have already been doing, and supplying the 
exact information they need to do it, which I did here.
 
Giving a well deserved wake-up call is not abusive, it's necessary in 
many cases.  This is one of them.
 
--
 
Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041
 
If your joy is derived from what society thinks of you, you're always 
going to be disappointed.
 
~ Madonna
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


Norman
 

I just came across this thread today, started a reply, discarded it, but now can't resist. While Brian's messages were maybe a bit out of line, i can't help but agree with the sentiment he expressed. Sadly though, It could have been worded a bit more diplomatically. My first reaction when i saw the thread had gotten combative was why do we have to go down this road again? It happens every month or so. The reaction now that he has left by a few list members though has been the most disturbing to me.

And with that having been said, i'm going to go on a bit of a rant about some people's ungratefulness, Sorry Jean.

Further back on this email thread ribbons were being discussed, some people like them and some do not. Brian in the spirit of helpfulness posted 3 different links to guides on how to navigate them from a blind perspective, I ask you, is that not considered helpful? What more can one do? We can say anything to try and help people but if said people refuse to read said material, there is nothing more we can do. Just because the thread degenerated into a bashfest because of undiplomatic statements from one side, and oversensitive reactions from the other shouldn't detract from the help that was already given.

And now that brian has left we get sulky comments like this.

Good riddence.

I agree. I’m not even sure why he’s here.

I agree.  He has been a troublemaker on every list he has infiltrated.  Once again, it should be pointed out that much of his arrogance and disrespect stems from the fact that he is totally sighted and has little patience for dealing with fellow blind list members who lack his advanced level of expertise.


Ungrateful, idiotic and untruthful statements like the ones above make me ashamed i have to be part of the blindness community. Yes i'm blind, and if i had a choice i would be sighted. And if i was i'd leave people like the ones who made those statements alone to figure out there own issues. Brian has been a long standing and helpful member of this comunity and i'm grateful that there are still sighted people willing to help us blind people develop our knowledge and indipendence. So since i'm blind, and don't have a choice in the matter i will accept that, try and gracefully accept help where needed and in turn help others where i can irrespective of if they're sighted or not.



In closing, i'll just make this statement . We all have equal oppurtunity on this earth, regardless of if we're sighted or not. Just keep this in mind, equal oppurtunity doesn't necessarily mean equal outcome.











On 11/20/2020 6:19 PM, chris judge wrote:

I agree. I’m not even sure why he’s here.

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gerald Levy via groups.io
Sent: November 20, 2020 1:32 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

 

 

I agree.  He has been a troublemaker on every list he has infiltrated.  Once again, it should be pointed out that much of his arrogance and disrespect stems from the fact that he is totally sighted and has little patience for dealing with fellow blind list members who lack his advanced level of expertise.

 

Gerald

 

 

On 11/20/2020 12:14 PM, chris judge wrote:

Good riddence.
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: November 20, 2020 12:57 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?
 
Brian has left the list.  He can dish it out, but what happens when he is
criticized?
 
Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Rob Hudson
Sent: Friday, November 20, 2020 10:38 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?
 
You can give "wake up calls" without insults and snarkiness. As has been
demonstrated by your posts here and elsewhere, you have a distinct lack of
patience and very little tolerance. I understand that you are frustrated
that people don't know what you know, or wish to adapt. But the tone of your
posts is such that it sounds like: you are a stupid idiot refusing to see
that things change.
It's a free country (well, mostly) and you can express yourself however you
wish. But, I think Gene--and others as well--would prefer that you leave off
the personal insults.
 
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Vogel" <britechguy@...>
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 08:20:17 -0800
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?
 
On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 11:10 AM, Gene wrote:
 
 
Your post is verging on personally abusive and such posts will not 
be allowed if continued in any regular or recurring pattern.
 
-
Gene, then I'll be happy to leave.  There seems to be this notion that 
all assistance has to "be nice."  Well, it doesn't, and very often, it 
shouldn't be.  We're dealing with adults here, and elsewhere, and I 
expect that adults know that effort will be necessary to learn any 
thing, and also know and accept the following:
 
It is impossible to help individuals who will not listen to advice 
unless they like that advice. Being a good assistant is not about 
making the person assisted "feel good," but about both asking the 
right (and sometimes hard) questions as well as giving the information 
necessary to achieve the desired result. Getting help is a two-way 
street, and those asking for help have work they must do, too, when 
asked. They also need to be ready to let go of what they'd like to do, 
and instead do what's called for.
 
It is not possible to help those who don't want to "do what's called for."
 
And, for the record, I'm not trying to "encourage people" in every 
instance, or even many instances.  I'm trying to get them to actually 
do something they should have already been doing, and supplying the 
exact information they need to do it, which I did here.
 
Giving a well deserved wake-up call is not abusive, it's necessary in 
many cases.  This is one of them.
 
--
 
Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041
 
If your joy is derived from what society thinks of you, you're always 
going to be disappointed.
 
~ Madonna
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


Gene
 

I'll restrict myself to commenting on one issue. I didn't object to Brian helping. I didn't object to Brian debating points if they didn't take over the list such as how best to encourage people to learn. I objected to one behavior, saying that a list member is whining like a three-year-old. The list has a rule that does not allow such activity and I would call it to anyone's attention who engages in it.

Making such statements is not helping people. it makes people angry and defensive. If you want to help people, do so by encouraging them to learn, explaining things, and providing material if available, appropriate, and possibly useful, not by ;personal remarks that accomplish nothing constructive.

It doesn't matter if Brian is sighted or blind. There are blind people who engage in such behavior as well.

If you benefitted from Brian's help that's fine. I'm sorry he left the list because he has a lot of technical knowledge and I would imagine he helped many people. But I can't bend list rules such as the need for civility for anyone. Knowledge doesn't confer special privelege or tolerance.

I don't plan to comment further. I don't think I have anything to add and I hope those interested in the discussion will have seen my comments. As list owner, I have certain responsibilities and that is how I interpret this one. Disagreements about substance, such as how to do things are fine. Even a certain ampount of angry disagreements are fine. But beyond a certain point, they become too personal and repeated indulgence will have results such as being placed on moderated status.

And to make the record completely clear, if there is any doubt, I didn't ask Brian to leave. He left on his own accord. I would have been happy to have tried to come to an agreement..

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Norman
Sent: Friday, November 20, 2020 6:49 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?



I just came across this thread today, started a reply, discarded it, but now can't resist. While Brian's messages were maybe a bit out of line, i can't help but agree with the sentiment he expressed. Sadly though, It could have been worded a bit more diplomatically. My first reaction when i saw the thread had gotten combative was why do we have to go down this road again? It happens every month or so. The reaction now that he has left by a few list members though has been the most disturbing to me.

And with that having been said, i'm going to go on a bit of a rant about some people's ungratefulness, Sorry Jean.

Further back on this email thread ribbons were being discussed, some people like them and some do not. Brian in the spirit of helpfulness posted 3 different links to guides on how to navigate them from a blind perspective, I ask you, is that not considered helpful? What more can one do? We can say anything to try and help people but if said people refuse to read said material, there is nothing more we can do. Just because the thread degenerated into a bashfest because of undiplomatic statements from one side, and oversensitive reactions from the other shouldn't detract from the help that was already given.

And now that brian has left we get sulky comments like this.

Good riddence.

I agree. I’m not even sure why he’s here.


I agree. He has been a troublemaker on every list he has infiltrated. Once again, it should be pointed out that much of his arrogance and disrespect stems from the fact that he is totally sighted and has little patience for dealing with fellow blind list members who lack his advanced level of expertise.




Ungrateful, idiotic and untruthful statements like the ones above make me ashamed i have to be part of the blindness community. Yes i'm blind, and if i had a choice i would be sighted. And if i was i'd leave people like the ones who made those statements alone to figure out there own issues. Brian has been a long standing and helpful member of this comunity and i'm grateful that there are still sighted people willing to help us blind people develop our knowledge and indipendence. So since i'm blind, and don't have a choice in the matter i will accept that, try and gracefully accept help where needed and in turn help others where i can irrespective of if they're sighted or not.







In closing, i'll just make this statement . We all have equal oppurtunity on this earth, regardless of if we're sighted or not. Just keep this in mind, equal oppurtunity doesn't necessarily mean equal outcome.































On 11/20/2020 6:19 PM, chris judge wrote:


I agree. I’m not even sure why he’s here.





From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gerald Levy via groups.io
Sent: November 20, 2020 1:32 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?







I agree. He has been a troublemaker on every list he has infiltrated. Once again, it should be pointed out that much of his arrogance and disrespect stems from the fact that he is totally sighted and has little patience for dealing with fellow blind list members who lack his advanced level of expertise.



Gerald







On 11/20/2020 12:14 PM, chris judge wrote:

Good riddence. -----Original Message----- From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene Sent: November 20, 2020 12:57 PM To: main@TechTalk.groups.io Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows? Brian has left the list. He can dish it out, but what happens when he is criticized? Gene -----Original Message----- From: Rob Hudson Sent: Friday, November 20, 2020 10:38 AM To: main@TechTalk.groups.io Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows? You can give "wake up calls" without insults and snarkiness. As has been demonstrated by your posts here and elsewhere, you have a distinct lack of patience and very little tolerance. I understand that you are frustrated that people don't know what you know, or wish to adapt. But the tone of your posts is such that it sounds like: you are a stupid idiot refusing to see that things change. It's a free country (well, mostly) and you can express yourself however you wish. But, I think Gene--and others as well--would prefer that you leave off the personal insults. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Vogel" <britechguy@gmail.com> To: main@TechTalk.groups.io Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 08:20:17 -0800 Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows? On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 11:10 AM, Gene wrote: Your post is verging on personally abusive and such posts will not be allowed if continued in any regular or recurring pattern. - Gene, then I'll be happy to leave. There seems to be this notion that all assistance has to "be nice." Well, it doesn't, and very often, it shouldn't be. We're dealing with adults here, and elsewhere, and I expect that adults know that effort will be necessary to learn any thing, and also know and accept the following: It is impossible to help individuals who will not listen to advice unless they like that advice. Being a good assistant is not about making the person assisted "feel good," but about both asking the right (and sometimes hard) questions as well as giving the information necessary to achieve the desired result. Getting help is a two-way street, and those asking for help have work they must do, too, when asked. They also need to be ready to let go of what they'd like to do, and instead do what's called for. It is not possible to help those who don't want to "do what's called for." And, for the record, I'm not trying to "encourage people" in every instance, or even many instances. I'm trying to get them to actually do something they should have already been doing, and supplying the exact information they need to do it, which I did here. Giving a well deserved wake-up call is not abusive, it's necessary in many cases. This is one of them. -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041 If your joy is derived from what society thinks of you, you're always going to be disappointed. ~ Madonna


Monte Single
 

For the record,  the first message  I read about how to use ribbons was written and posted by Gene Asner.

I’m thinking that was about 10 years ago.

Gene has consistently encouraged  list members to move to the ribbons method of working  with m s products and leaving the old menus approach behind.

If I have misunderstood your posting,  my apologies.

 

Cheers,

 

Monte

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Norman
Sent: November 20, 2020 6:49 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

 

I just came across this thread today, started a reply, discarded it, but now can't resist. While Brian's messages were maybe a bit out of line, i can't help but agree with the sentiment he expressed. Sadly though, It could have been worded a bit more diplomatically. My first reaction when i saw the thread had gotten combative was why do we have to go down this road again? It happens every month or so. The reaction now that he has left by a few list members though has been the most disturbing to me.

And with that having been said, i'm going to go on a bit of a rant about some people's ungratefulness, Sorry Jean.

Further back on this email thread ribbons were being discussed, some people like them and some do not. Brian in the spirit of helpfulness posted 3 different links to guides on how to navigate them from a blind perspective, I ask you, is that not considered helpful? What more can one do? We can say anything to try and help people but if said people refuse to read said material, there is nothing more we can do. Just because the thread degenerated into a bashfest because of undiplomatic statements from one side, and oversensitive reactions from the other shouldn't detract from the help that was already given.

And now that brian has left we get sulky comments like this.

Good riddence.

I agree. I’m not even sure why he’s here.

I agree.  He has been a troublemaker on every list he has infiltrated.  Once again, it should be pointed out that much of his arrogance and disrespect stems from the fact that he is totally sighted and has little patience for dealing with fellow blind list members who lack his advanced level of expertise.

 

Ungrateful, idiotic and untruthful statements like the ones above make me ashamed i have to be part of the blindness community. Yes i'm blind, and if i had a choice i would be sighted. And if i was i'd leave people like the ones who made those statements alone to figure out there own issues. Brian has been a long standing and helpful member of this comunity and i'm grateful that there are still sighted people willing to help us blind people develop our knowledge and indipendence. So since i'm blind, and don't have a choice in the matter i will accept that, try and gracefully accept help where needed and in turn help others where i can irrespective of if they're sighted or not.

 

 

In closing, i'll just make this statement . We all have equal oppurtunity on this earth, regardless of if we're sighted or not. Just keep this in mind, equal oppurtunity doesn't necessarily mean equal outcome.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On 11/20/2020 6:19 PM, chris judge wrote:

I agree. I’m not even sure why he’s here.

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gerald Levy via groups.io
Sent: November 20, 2020 1:32 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

 

 

I agree.  He has been a troublemaker on every list he has infiltrated.  Once again, it should be pointed out that much of his arrogance and disrespect stems from the fact that he is totally sighted and has little patience for dealing with fellow blind list members who lack his advanced level of expertise.

 

Gerald

 

 

On 11/20/2020 12:14 PM, chris judge wrote:

Good riddence.
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: November 20, 2020 12:57 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?
 
Brian has left the list.  He can dish it out, but what happens when he is
criticized?
 
Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Rob Hudson
Sent: Friday, November 20, 2020 10:38 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?
 
You can give "wake up calls" without insults and snarkiness. As has been
demonstrated by your posts here and elsewhere, you have a distinct lack of
patience and very little tolerance. I understand that you are frustrated
that people don't know what you know, or wish to adapt. But the tone of your
posts is such that it sounds like: you are a stupid idiot refusing to see
that things change.
It's a free country (well, mostly) and you can express yourself however you
wish. But, I think Gene--and others as well--would prefer that you leave off
the personal insults.
 
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Vogel" <britechguy@...>
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 08:20:17 -0800
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?
 
On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 11:10 AM, Gene wrote:
 
 
Your post is verging on personally abusive and such posts will not 
be allowed if continued in any regular or recurring pattern.
 
-
Gene, then I'll be happy to leave.  There seems to be this notion that 
all assistance has to "be nice."  Well, it doesn't, and very often, it 
shouldn't be.  We're dealing with adults here, and elsewhere, and I 
expect that adults know that effort will be necessary to learn any 
thing, and also know and accept the following:
 
It is impossible to help individuals who will not listen to advice 
unless they like that advice. Being a good assistant is not about 
making the person assisted "feel good," but about both asking the 
right (and sometimes hard) questions as well as giving the information 
necessary to achieve the desired result. Getting help is a two-way 
street, and those asking for help have work they must do, too, when 
asked. They also need to be ready to let go of what they'd like to do, 
and instead do what's called for.
 
It is not possible to help those who don't want to "do what's called for."
 
And, for the record, I'm not trying to "encourage people" in every 
instance, or even many instances.  I'm trying to get them to actually 
do something they should have already been doing, and supplying the 
exact information they need to do it, which I did here.
 
Giving a well deserved wake-up call is not abusive, it's necessary in 
many cases.  This is one of them.
 
--
 
Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041
 
If your joy is derived from what society thinks of you, you're always 
going to be disappointed.
 
~ Madonna
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


Gene
 

To clarify, I don't say that people should leave menus behind.  Most programs still use them.  My concern is that for those who want to use Office programs, and get to various places in Windows 10, that knowing how to use ribbons may be important.  I don't know to what extent you can not use ribbons and find things you want in Word programs and Windows.  I suspect some, perhaps many people can use
Office and Windows 10 and largely keep away from ribbons.  I suspect many people would use ribbons in these areas. 


So I say it depends on how you use these programs and what you want to do in Windows.. 


I encourage people who have a need or desire to learn ribbons because I think that for most people, it won't be that hard and it may give people more confidence to learn other things on the basis that if they find that learning ribbons isn't the ordeal they are afraid it will be, they may gain confidence in their ability to learn other computer-related things such as programs they may be worried about learning. 


Gene

On 11/20/2020 7:12 PM, Monte Single wrote:

For the record,  the first message  I read about how to use ribbons was written and posted by Gene Asner.

I’m thinking that was about 10 years ago.

Gene has consistently encouraged  list members to move to the ribbons method of working  with m s products and leaving the old menus approach behind.

If I have misunderstood your posting,  my apologies.

 

Cheers,

 

Monte

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Norman
Sent: November 20, 2020 6:49 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

 

I just came across this thread today, started a reply, discarded it, but now can't resist. While Brian's messages were maybe a bit out of line, i can't help but agree with the sentiment he expressed. Sadly though, It could have been worded a bit more diplomatically. My first reaction when i saw the thread had gotten combative was why do we have to go down this road again? It happens every month or so. The reaction now that he has left by a few list members though has been the most disturbing to me.

And with that having been said, i'm going to go on a bit of a rant about some people's ungratefulness, Sorry Jean.

Further back on this email thread ribbons were being discussed, some people like them and some do not. Brian in the spirit of helpfulness posted 3 different links to guides on how to navigate them from a blind perspective, I ask you, is that not considered helpful? What more can one do? We can say anything to try and help people but if said people refuse to read said material, there is nothing more we can do. Just because the thread degenerated into a bashfest because of undiplomatic statements from one side, and oversensitive reactions from the other shouldn't detract from the help that was already given.

And now that brian has left we get sulky comments like this.

Good riddence.

I agree. I’m not even sure why he’s here.

I agree.  He has been a troublemaker on every list he has infiltrated.  Once again, it should be pointed out that much of his arrogance and disrespect stems from the fact that he is totally sighted and has little patience for dealing with fellow blind list members who lack his advanced level of expertise.

 

Ungrateful, idiotic and untruthful statements like the ones above make me ashamed i have to be part of the blindness community. Yes i'm blind, and if i had a choice i would be sighted. And if i was i'd leave people like the ones who made those statements alone to figure out there own issues. Brian has been a long standing and helpful member of this comunity and i'm grateful that there are still sighted people willing to help us blind people develop our knowledge and indipendence. So since i'm blind, and don't have a choice in the matter i will accept that, try and gracefully accept help where needed and in turn help others where i can irrespective of if they're sighted or not.

 

 

In closing, i'll just make this statement . We all have equal oppurtunity on this earth, regardless of if we're sighted or not. Just keep this in mind, equal oppurtunity doesn't necessarily mean equal outcome.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On 11/20/2020 6:19 PM, chris judge wrote:

I agree. I’m not even sure why he’s here.

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gerald Levy via groups.io
Sent: November 20, 2020 1:32 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

 

 

I agree.  He has been a troublemaker on every list he has infiltrated.  Once again, it should be pointed out that much of his arrogance and disrespect stems from the fact that he is totally sighted and has little patience for dealing with fellow blind list members who lack his advanced level of expertise.

 

Gerald

 

 

On 11/20/2020 12:14 PM, chris judge wrote:

Good riddence.
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: November 20, 2020 12:57 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?
 
Brian has left the list.  He can dish it out, but what happens when he is
criticized?
 
Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Rob Hudson
Sent: Friday, November 20, 2020 10:38 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?
 
You can give "wake up calls" without insults and snarkiness. As has been
demonstrated by your posts here and elsewhere, you have a distinct lack of
patience and very little tolerance. I understand that you are frustrated
that people don't know what you know, or wish to adapt. But the tone of your
posts is such that it sounds like: you are a stupid idiot refusing to see
that things change.
It's a free country (well, mostly) and you can express yourself however you
wish. But, I think Gene--and others as well--would prefer that you leave off
the personal insults.
 
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Vogel" <britechguy@...>
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 08:20:17 -0800
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?
 
On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 11:10 AM, Gene wrote:
 
 
Your post is verging on personally abusive and such posts will not 
be allowed if continued in any regular or recurring pattern.
 
-
Gene, then I'll be happy to leave.  There seems to be this notion that 
all assistance has to "be nice."  Well, it doesn't, and very often, it 
shouldn't be.  We're dealing with adults here, and elsewhere, and I 
expect that adults know that effort will be necessary to learn any 
thing, and also know and accept the following:
 
It is impossible to help individuals who will not listen to advice 
unless they like that advice. Being a good assistant is not about 
making the person assisted "feel good," but about both asking the 
right (and sometimes hard) questions as well as giving the information 
necessary to achieve the desired result. Getting help is a two-way 
street, and those asking for help have work they must do, too, when 
asked. They also need to be ready to let go of what they'd like to do, 
and instead do what's called for.
 
It is not possible to help those who don't want to "do what's called for."
 
And, for the record, I'm not trying to "encourage people" in every 
instance, or even many instances.  I'm trying to get them to actually 
do something they should have already been doing, and supplying the 
exact information they need to do it, which I did here.
 
Giving a well deserved wake-up call is not abusive, it's necessary in 
many cases.  This is one of them.
 
--
 
Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041
 
If your joy is derived from what society thinks of you, you're always 
going to be disappointed.
 
~ Madonna
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


enes sarıbaş
 

Brian,

I totally agree with you on this. Like if I found uac annoying and invasive, or windows firewall, or the spectre/meltdown pprocessor patches, I can completely disable any of  these on my windows pc. But for my phone, I use Apple, because I see my phone as a toy more than an actual computer, and it performs a limited number of things. Also, the accessibility advantage of IOS.

On 11/19/2020 10:14 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 10:52 AM, Gene wrote:
With Apple, you get what you get.
-
Yup.  Apple exercises an iron fist in controlling its ecosystem while Microsoft has had a "come one, come all!!" attitude toward third party developers for as long as I've been in the business.

My line about Apple is that you must become one with the borg when you go Apple.  They know what's best for you and you'll get what they deign to give you.  That's why I parted ways with them decades ago.  I want a lot more control over my computing environment than I could ever get with Apple products.

Others, will, of course, feel differently.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

If your joy is derived from what society thinks of you, you're always going to be disappointed.

        ~ Madonna


enes sarıbaş
 

Gene,

While ribbons are more accessible than people give them credit for, there is absolutely no doubt that menu bars were vastly superior in terms of accessibility. Ribbons seemed to be designed with the mouse in mind.

On 11/19/2020 12:49 PM, goshawk on horseback wrote:
no, I haven't, and find them a complete pane, as I just can't figure out how to find things easily in the flaming things.

Simon


----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@gmail.com>
To: <main@TechTalk.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 4:04 PM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?


Did you see my tutorial on ribbons?  I can't say how you will find them if you haven't seen it and now do, but in the majority of cases, people have a lot of probems witgh ribbons because they haven't been properly taught them or havenn't seen good instructional material, if any.  In essense, and it isn't quite this simple, but in essence, ribbons are like menus but differently organized.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: goshawk on horseback
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 9:45 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

would definitely agree about the time to figure out another OS.
I was recently looking to possibly get away from windows, as I am not happy
with the way it is going with all these ribbon menus and so on, so thought
about going the mac rout. only to find, that unlike windows, one can't even
do the basics with out knowing a good few 3 key plus combinations. so would
say that there is a lot more to have to spend time figuring out with the
mac, to do anything at all with it, where as windows is certainly a bit
easier from that point.

as for the mobile side of things, I use both iPhone and android, and would
say that once one is used to using a touch screen, that is a good half the
battle. over all, I probably prefer the iPhone, but do prefer the android as
a media device, as getting stuff on and off of it is a lot easier, as it can
be done with standard windows explorer, rather than the messing about with
iTunes, to get stuff on or off of the iPhone.

Simon


----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@gmail.com>
To: <main@TechTalk.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 3:12 PM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?


I'm not sure there is an answer.  for the typical user, I doubt there is a meaningful advantage one way or the other.  I won't use Apple computers because I know Windows and it isn't worth my time and effort learning another operating system when I am already very profficient in one.

there may be some specific uses that are better dealt with in apple computers and some in Windows but I don't think, as I said, that for the typical user, it matters.

Then there is the cost of  Apple computers.  You pay a lot more.

I won't comment on mobile devices.  I haven't used smart mobile devices.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Dave
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 9:08 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

Hello,


For those who have both, or experience with both Systems, Which has the
better support when it comes to over all Accessibility?


Not trying to start World War 8, but I keep noticing lots of articles
and pod casts explaining Apple Accessibility features. this would cover
the Apple Mac, the I-Pad, and the I-Phone.


I don't own an Apple products, but am open to it.  With what seems to be
an increase in articles, over the last year or two, it just had me
wondering how good are the Apple products?


I find all the Operating Systems to be lacking when it comes to
Accessibility.  Seems like we move ahead one or two steps, then take a
step or two back.


I personally use Windows and Android.  have yet to own anything Apple.


Grumpy Dave























enes sarıbaş
 

Yes Gene I agree.

For example, we disagree vastly on computer specifications that are necesary for regular users and pricepoints. However, I  have always kept criticisms at ideas, rather than people, and have not made personal comments.

On 11/20/2020 3:13 PM, Gene wrote:
I know you didn't like them but I didn't know what you thought now.

I don't mind someone making a strong case or having a strong opinion, if they don't resort to personal attacks.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Ron Canazzi
Sent: Friday, November 20, 2020 2:45 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

Hi Gene,

I totally agree and BTW, I HATE! ribbons.  I learn to use them and hold
my nose and my stomach and get by.


On 11/20/2020 11:53 AM, Gene wrote:
Why are you always threatening to leave? Accusing someone of whining like a three year old is a violation of the lists rule against abusive messages and all other such lists I've been a member of have such rules as well.

You don't motivate people  to learn or to want to listen to what you are saying by insulting them.  Encouraging people to learn is one thing. Discussing the importance  or the benefits of learning ribbons is one thing. Saying that if you learn ribbons may help you have more confidence when learning something else that may appear difficult at first, is fine. Saying someone is whining like a three year old is not.

Blind people come from all sorts of backgrounds.  Some have good training, some don't.  Some have more aptitude for learning computer-related concepts, and some people find learning computer-related things more difficult.

Some people come from backgrounds where family and friends have taught them not to have confidence.  Others come from backgrounds where they have been taught to have confidence.

If this were a rehabilitation facility, putting pressure on blind people to learn certain skills would be necessary.  Some people would lack the confidence to learn without being put under some pressure to achieve so they see that they can.  But this and other such lists aren't rehabilitation institutions. They are lists for learning and help.  Lists where blind people from all sorts of backgrounds, at all sorts of levels of knowledge gather to give and get help.  Encouragement is fine, not insults.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Friday, November 20, 2020 10:20 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 11:10 AM, Gene wrote:
Your post is verging on personally abusive and such posts will not be allowed if continued in any regular or recurring pattern.-
Gene, then I'll be happy to leave.  There seems to be this notion that all assistance has to "be nice."  Well, it doesn't, and very often, it shouldn't be.  We're dealing with adults here, and elsewhere, and I expect that adults know that effort will be necessary to learn any thing, and also know and accept the following:

It is impossible to help individuals who will not listen to advice unless they like that advice. Being a good assistant is not about making the person assisted "feel good," but about both asking the right (and sometimes hard) questions as well as giving the information necessary to achieve the desired result. Getting help is a two-way street, and those asking for help have work they must do, too, when asked. They also need to be ready to let go of what they'd like to do, and instead do what's called for.

It is not possible to help those who don't want to "do what's called for." And, for the record, I'm not trying to "encourage people" in every instance, or even many instances.  I'm trying to get them to actually do something they should have already been doing, and supplying the exact information they need to do it, which I did here.

Giving a well deserved wake-up call is not abusive, it's necessary in many cases.  This is one of them.


Gene
 

That is factually incorrect. it isn't a matter of opinion. Accessibility doesn't mean convenient. It means that things can be reached from the keyboard, that they speak, and can be activated from the keyboard.

And as far as reaching things from the keyboard conveniently in ribbons is concerned, in my tutorial, I said that people who intend to use a certain ribbon command often remember the keyboard sequence, just as they do in menus. And if you know the commands control right arrow and control left arrow to move by grouping, you can often get to what you want if you don't know where it is with reasonable efficiency.

If, for example, I am looking for reply to all in the ribbon version of Windows live mail, if I move by grouping, I can use control right arrow to move until I get to the respond grouping. That is logically where reply commands would be. I then tab to reply to all if that is what I want. If I stop when I get to the grouping, I will probably be on reply.

A lot of ribbons have far more items in them than a single menu. Moving by groupings significantly helps with that problem because you don't have to tab or shift tab by every item in the menu. You move through groupings until you get to the one that logically would be expected to have whatever command or adjustment you are looking for.

If you want to say that menus are more convenient, that's a matter I won't argue, it’s a personal preference and I don't have much opinion. But when it comes to accessibility, ribbons are accessible.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2020 4:43 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

Gene,

While ribbons are more accessible than people give them credit for,
there is absolutely no doubt that menu bars were vastly superior in
terms of accessibility. Ribbons seemed to be designed with the mouse in
mind.

On 11/19/2020 12:49 PM, goshawk on horseback wrote:
no, I haven't, and find them a complete pane, as I just can't figure out how to find things easily in the flaming things.

Simon


----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@gmail.com>
To: <main@TechTalk.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 4:04 PM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?


Did you see my tutorial on ribbons? I can't say how you will find them if you haven't seen it and now do, but in the majority of cases, people have a lot of probems witgh ribbons because they haven't been properly taught them or havenn't seen good instructional material, if any. In essense, and it isn't quite this simple, but in essence, ribbons are like menus but differently organized.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: goshawk on horseback
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 9:45 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

would definitely agree about the time to figure out another OS.
I was recently looking to possibly get away from windows, as I am not happy
with the way it is going with all these ribbon menus and so on, so thought
about going the mac rout. only to find, that unlike windows, one can't even
do the basics with out knowing a good few 3 key plus combinations. so would
say that there is a lot more to have to spend time figuring out with the
mac, to do anything at all with it, where as windows is certainly a bit
easier from that point.

as for the mobile side of things, I use both iPhone and android, and would
say that once one is used to using a touch screen, that is a good half the
battle. over all, I probably prefer the iPhone, but do prefer the android as
a media device, as getting stuff on and off of it is a lot easier, as it can
be done with standard windows explorer, rather than the messing about with
iTunes, to get stuff on or off of the iPhone.

Simon


----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@gmail.com>
To: <main@TechTalk.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 3:12 PM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?


I'm not sure there is an answer. for the typical user, I doubt there is a meaningful advantage one way or the other. I won't use Apple computers because I know Windows and it isn't worth my time and effort learning another operating system when I am already very profficient in one.

there may be some specific uses that are better dealt with in apple computers and some in Windows but I don't think, as I said, that for the typical user, it matters.

Then there is the cost of Apple computers. You pay a lot more.

I won't comment on mobile devices. I haven't used smart mobile devices.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Dave
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 9:08 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: [TechTalk] Apple vs Windows?

Hello,


For those who have both, or experience with both Systems, Which has the
better support when it comes to over all Accessibility?


Not trying to start World War 8, but I keep noticing lots of articles
and pod casts explaining Apple Accessibility features. this would cover
the Apple Mac, the I-Pad, and the I-Phone.


I don't own an Apple products, but am open to it. With what seems to be
an increase in articles, over the last year or two, it just had me
wondering how good are the Apple products?


I find all the Operating Systems to be lacking when it comes to
Accessibility. Seems like we move ahead one or two steps, then take a
step or two back.


I personally use Windows and Android. have yet to own anything Apple.


Grumpy Dave
























enes sarıbaş
 

But the advantage is that for a few instances, features intended for sighted help out blind people as well. For example, if voice commands improved significantly, and worked to perform any action, I could use it to  perform a function not accessible in a program.

On 11/19/2020 9:27 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 10:08 AM, Dave wrote:
I find all the Operating Systems to be lacking when it comes to Accessibility.  Seems like we move ahead one or two steps, then take a step or two back.
-
Then you will find Apple, iOS, and OSX no different.

Accessibility, as a whole, is a workaround.  It is the substitution of one sensory modality for material designed for another, and that substitution will never be "perfect" or even close to it.  All sorts of compromises have to be decided upon when trying to make something intended for one sensory modality accessible in another.

And while I'm entirely in agreement with the "one or two steps forward, then a seeming step or two back" feeling, it's not the truth in actuality.  It's been a steady march in one direction, forward.  But the problem is that technology, and particularly that related to the web and web coding, continues to move at an insanely rapid pace, so those in the business of providing accessibility are always in the position of playing catch-up.  Even if accessibility is "as close to perfect" as it can get today, a couple of small changes breaks that near perfection, creating stumbling blocks.  But that's not the same as true reversion - a true couple of steps back.  It's that the pace of what's new that has to be caught-up to, and how quickly (or not) that can be achieved ebbs and flows.

The arc of accessibility is, and has been, going in only one direction for decades now - forward.  That there have been some pretty darned frustrating bumps in that road, and that those will continue to occur at times, is undeniable.  That doesn't mean, in any true sense, that accessibility is getting worse.  The pursuit of accessibility will always include an element of break-fix, particularly with the introduction of truly novel constructs.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

If your joy is derived from what society thinks of you, you're always going to be disappointed.

        ~ Madonna