Topics

Restoring Classic ALT+TAB behavior in Windows 10, Version20H2


heather albright
 

I went to this site, it is poorly put together by someone who does not speak English fully I might add.  So they tell you to use Alternatively, You can directly launch this page using "ms-settings:multitasking" command in RUN dialog box as mentioned here.”  So why do they just not tell you how to change it out right instead of making one have to jump threw hoops to obtain the settings to change the  Restoring Classic ALT+TAB behavior.  So sharing a you tube video that tells you step by step how to fix this issue. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NeOnJ3RaQI

I do not have this update otherwise I would provide a step by step written guide for those who need text not audio guides. Thinking about my deaf-blind friends and friends who need a more clear precise guide for the fix because they are not computer techies! Cheers Heather

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2020 10:29 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: [TechTalk] Restoring Classic ALT+TAB behavior in Windows 10, Version20H2

 

This is bound to become the next big "everyone's asking" question, and for good reason.  So here's the answer so that everyone has it.  If you do not have Windows 10 20H2 yet, and most don't, then please file this message for when you do get it, as everyone is going to eventually.

See article:  [Tip] Disable and Remove Microsoft Edge Tabs Showing in ALT+Tab Screen in Windows 10

If you want to cut straight to the chase, search the page for "Open Settings" which are the first two words of Step 1 in the step-by-step instructions.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

If your joy is derived from what society thinks of you, you're always going to be disappointed.

        ~ Madonna

 


Gerald Levy
 


I'm still not sure I understand what all the fuss is about.  Am I correct in assuming that this modified Alt-Tab behavior in Windows 10 20H2 only applies when opening the Edge browser?  If you don't open Edge, does Alt-Tab still cycle between open programs like it always has?  This article is very confusing.


Gerald



On 11/10/2020 12:48 PM, heather albright wrote:

I went to this site, it is poorly put together by someone who does not speak English fully I might add.  So they tell you to use Alternatively, You can directly launch this page using "ms-settings:multitasking" command in RUN dialog box as mentioned here.”  So why do they just not tell you how to change it out right instead of making one have to jump threw hoops to obtain the settings to change the  Restoring Classic ALT+TAB behavior.  So sharing a you tube video that tells you step by step how to fix this issue. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NeOnJ3RaQI

I do not have this update otherwise I would provide a step by step written guide for those who need text not audio guides. Thinking about my deaf-blind friends and friends who need a more clear precise guide for the fix because they are not computer techies! Cheers Heather

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2020 10:29 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: [TechTalk] Restoring Classic ALT+TAB behavior in Windows 10, Version20H2

 

This is bound to become the next big "everyone's asking" question, and for good reason.  So here's the answer so that everyone has it.  If you do not have Windows 10 20H2 yet, and most don't, then please file this message for when you do get it, as everyone is going to eventually.

See article:  [Tip] Disable and Remove Microsoft Edge Tabs Showing in ALT+Tab Screen in Windows 10

If you want to cut straight to the chase, search the page for "Open Settings" which are the first two words of Step 1 in the step-by-step instructions.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

If your joy is derived from what society thinks of you, you're always going to be disappointed.

        ~ Madonna

 


Gene
 

There is nothing improper about these instructions as far as clarity is concerned. The writer writes as a nonnative English speaker might, but he writes clearly. I think the problem you may be having is that, as usual, the instructions are written for sighted users. Ifd you expect a step-by-step set of instructions such as open this, tab this many times to this, etc. not having the article written in that way is not because the author communicates poorly. Is that what you expect? If so, stating that might result in someone providing such instructions.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: heather albright
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2020 11:48 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Restoring Classic ALT+TAB behavior in Windows 10, Version20H2



I went to this site, it is poorly put together by someone who does not speak English fully I might add. So they tell you to use Alternatively, You can directly launch this page using "ms-settings:multitasking" command in RUN dialog box as mentioned here.” So why do they just not tell you how to change it out right instead of making one have to jump threw hoops to obtain the settings to change the Restoring Classic ALT+TAB behavior. So sharing a you tube video that tells you step by step how to fix this issue. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NeOnJ3RaQI

I do not have this update otherwise I would provide a step by step written guide for those who need text not audio guides. Thinking about my deaf-blind friends and friends who need a more clear precise guide for the fix because they are not computer techies! Cheers Heather



Sent from Mail for Windows 10





From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2020 10:29 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: [TechTalk] Restoring Classic ALT+TAB behavior in Windows 10, Version20H2





This is bound to become the next big "everyone's asking" question, and for good reason. So here's the answer so that everyone has it. If you do not have Windows 10 20H2 yet, and most don't, then please file this message for when you do get it, as everyone is going to eventually.

See article: [Tip] Disable and Remove Microsoft Edge Tabs Showing in ALT+Tab Screen in Windows 10

If you want to cut straight to the chase, search the page for "Open Settings" which are the first two words of Step 1 in the step-by-step instructions.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

If your joy is derived from what society thinks of you, you're always going to be disappointed.

~ Madonna


Gene
 

You don't have to be a tech to understand these instructions. Many blind people are not taught to explore and see how things are set up or how to translate instructions given to sighted people to those a blind person would use. Other people get training that teaches them to understand that a sighted user's instructions can often be used if the blind user knows how to translate them.

I don't know and I'm not assuming what you know. But I am saying that if you want to learn that skill, there are good training materials that will teach it. If you don'/t that's fine, but it isn't a question of having to have great technical knowledge to do and learn such things. It’s a question of how the person is taught.

I'm discussing this not to tell you to learn or not learn something. I'm discussing it because if people know this, they may be interested in learning how to translate sighted instructions into blind instructions for their own use and benefit and to help others.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: heather albright
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2020 11:48 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Restoring Classic ALT+TAB behavior in Windows 10, Version20H2



I went to this site, it is poorly put together by someone who does not speak English fully I might add. So they tell you to use Alternatively, You can directly launch this page using "ms-settings:multitasking" command in RUN dialog box as mentioned here.” So why do they just not tell you how to change it out right instead of making one have to jump threw hoops to obtain the settings to change the Restoring Classic ALT+TAB behavior. So sharing a you tube video that tells you step by step how to fix this issue. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NeOnJ3RaQI

I do not have this update otherwise I would provide a step by step written guide for those who need text not audio guides. Thinking about my deaf-blind friends and friends who need a more clear precise guide for the fix because they are not computer techies! Cheers Heather



Sent from Mail for Windows 10





From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2020 10:29 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: [TechTalk] Restoring Classic ALT+TAB behavior in Windows 10, Version20H2





This is bound to become the next big "everyone's asking" question, and for good reason. So here's the answer so that everyone has it. If you do not have Windows 10 20H2 yet, and most don't, then please file this message for when you do get it, as everyone is going to eventually.

See article: [Tip] Disable and Remove Microsoft Edge Tabs Showing in ALT+Tab Screen in Windows 10

If you want to cut straight to the chase, search the page for "Open Settings" which are the first two words of Step 1 in the step-by-step instructions.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

If your joy is derived from what society thinks of you, you're always going to be disappointed.

~ Madonna


Gene
 

It is about using Edge. It is saying that if you have multiple tabs opened when using Edge, using alt tab will tab through all the opened tabs as well as all opened programs. The point of the article is to change the behavior so that Windows will only show the actual program when you alt tab, not all the tabs you have opened in the program.

Many people may use Edge because it is already installed but from what I've read, Edge is better than Chrome in that it is much more effective in keeping you from being tracked. I don't know if it is better in any other ways but people who are concerned about this issue may want to use Edge if they are now using Chrome.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Gerald Levy via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2020 12:02 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Restoring Classic ALT+TAB behavior in Windows 10, Version20H2






I'm still not sure I understand what all the fuss is about. Am I correct in assuming that this modified Alt-Tab behavior in Windows 10 20H2 only applies when opening the Edge browser? If you don't open Edge, does Alt-Tab still cycle between open programs like it always has? This article is very confusing.




Gerald








On 11/10/2020 12:48 PM, heather albright wrote:


I went to this site, it is poorly put together by someone who does not speak English fully I might add. So they tell you to use Alternatively, You can directly launch this page using "ms-settings:multitasking" command in RUN dialog box as mentioned here.” So why do they just not tell you how to change it out right instead of making one have to jump threw hoops to obtain the settings to change the Restoring Classic ALT+TAB behavior. So sharing a you tube video that tells you step by step how to fix this issue. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NeOnJ3RaQI

I do not have this update otherwise I would provide a step by step written guide for those who need text not audio guides. Thinking about my deaf-blind friends and friends who need a more clear precise guide for the fix because they are not computer techies! Cheers Heather



Sent from Mail for Windows 10





From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2020 10:29 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: [TechTalk] Restoring Classic ALT+TAB behavior in Windows 10, Version20H2





This is bound to become the next big "everyone's asking" question, and for good reason. So here's the answer so that everyone has it. If you do not have Windows 10 20H2 yet, and most don't, then please file this message for when you do get it, as everyone is going to eventually.

See article: [Tip] Disable and Remove Microsoft Edge Tabs Showing in ALT+Tab Screen in Windows 10

If you want to cut straight to the chase, search the page for "Open Settings" which are the first two words of Step 1 in the step-by-step instructions.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

If your joy is derived from what society thinks of you, you're always going to be disappointed.

~ Madonna


Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

On Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 01:16 PM, Gene wrote:
You don't have to be a tech to understand these instructions.
-
Nor do you have to be sighted.  I expect that any blind user knows that "click" means "activate" for them, "right click" means bring up the context menu using SHIFT+F10 or the Applications/Menu Key, etc.

There is never going to be a time when all instructions are written in screen reader specific language, nor should there be.  You as a screen reader user should know exactly what the equivalents for "point and click" instructions translate to as a screen reader command, as most of the instructions you will ever be given are going to be in "point and click" parlance.  It's not rocket science.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

If your joy is derived from what society thinks of you, you're always going to be disappointed.

        ~ Madonna


Gene
 

Considering the amount of not particularly good training many blind people get, I don't expect that level of knowledge and approaching people in that way may make them more resistant to learning.

I dohn't remember the details of the instructions, I kept the page as a reference in case I want it in future, but people may have been puzzled by things such as on the right side, you will see this. Without seeing the interface, I will say that such comments generally don't matter. Ifyou are in a dialog or a dialog-like structure and you see something like this, tabbing uhntil you find what is described will usually allow you to find it.

At times instructions will say something like click the gear. That means the icon your screen-reader reads as tools, in general. While this mayb be determined by inference and trial and error, it may be confusing to people who have been taught the more or less rote memorization method and not structures.

But it is important for people to know that they can do a lot of what they might not think they can in terms of understanding instructions with the right conceptual knowledge and knowing how to explore well.

For those who generally don't want to use programs other than popular ones among blind people where tutorials and other information is likely available, such conceptual understanding may not be important to them. But for those who want to use other programs, it may be important.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2020 12:48 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Restoring Classic ALT+TAB behavior in Windows 10, Version20H2

On Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 01:16 PM, Gene wrote:
You don't have to be a tech to understand these instructions.-
Nor do you have to be sighted. I expect that any blind user knows that "click" means "activate" for them, "right click" means bring up the context menu using SHIFT+F10 or the Applications/Menu Key, etc.

There is never going to be a time when all instructions are written in screen reader specific language, nor should there be. You as a screen reader user should know exactly what the equivalents for "point and click" instructions translate to as a screen reader command, as most of the instructions you will ever be given are going to be in "point and click" parlance. It's not rocket science.

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

If your joy is derived from what society thinks of you, you're always going to be disappointed.

~ Madonna


Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

Gene,

            Then we will simply have to agree to disagree on this, and vigorously.  Anyone, and I do mean anyone, who is blind and is sophisticated enough to have joined technology related mailing lists had darned well better know what the point and click equivalents in a screen reader are, or should identify themselves on first post as complete newbies to screen reader use, which is a special circumstance.

             It is completely unreasonable, in my opinion, to presume complete "blank slate" or lack of very basic skills as a starting point on any of these groups, and I will not ever do it.

             If you've figured out how to join a mailing list, you had ought to know this, as well as how to do a web search with ease.  And if you don't, your first order of business should be learning, fast.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

If your joy is derived from what society thinks of you, you're always going to be disappointed.

        ~ Madonna


Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

Gene,

              I pick the instruction sets I post on blind technology groups with the target audience in mind.  Here is a cut and paste, directly from the webpage, including formatting, of the instructions.  They should be simple to follow by anybody, regardless of their visual status:

1. Open Settings app from Start Menu or by pressing WIN+I keys together.

2. Now go to "System -> Multitasking" section.

PS: Alternatively, You can directly launch this page using "ms-settings:multitasking" command in RUN dialog box as mentioned here.

3. In right-side pane, look for "Alt + Tab" section. Remember this section will only appear in newer versions of Windows 10. If you are using an older version of Windows 10, "Alt + Tab" section will not appear.

Click on the drop-down box given under "Pressing Alt + Tab shows" option.

Now select "Open windows only" option to disable and remove Microsoft Edge tabs display in ALT+Tab screen.

That's it. Now press ALT+Tab hotkey and Windows 10 will no longer display all running tabs of Microsoft Edge in ALT+Tab screen. Only a single icon of Microsoft Edge will appear on ALT+Tab list.

PS: If you want to customize how many tabs of Microsoft Edge should Windows 10 display in ALT+Tab screen, you can select desired option from drop-down box. You can select 3 recent tabs or 5 recent tabs to display or you can select to display all running tabs of Microsoft Edge browser in ALT+Tab screen.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

If your joy is derived from what society thinks of you, you're always going to be disappointed.

        ~ Madonna


Gene
 

I won't comment further except to say that you are taking a you should know this attitude when objectively knowing the kind of training many blind people get doesn't justify your demand. I won't say more but I'm confident that you will get a lot of angry disagreement.

Actually, I will say more.

the skills and knowledge needed to join an e-mail list are not related to knowing how to translate mouse and other sighted aspects of instructions into the equivalents blind people use.

and as far as Internet navigation and performing searches is concerned, I did a tutorial many years ago teaching the basics of web page navigation. I did so because of my empirical observations over many years that a lot of blind people, even reasonably good computer users in other areas, didn't have good Internet navigation skills. You can have all the expectations you want but they don't match what exists.

furthermore, such lists as this ar for users at all levels of knowledge and expecting them to know certain things before they join is a complete contradiction of their ;purpose. It isn't the purpose of this list and other lists like it that I am on and have been on to demand that blind people meet certain standards of knowledge. People may want to learn more and improve their skills as a result of being on such lists but the purpose of such lists is not to pressure such learning.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2020 1:10 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Restoring Classic ALT+TAB behavior in Windows 10, Version20H2

Gene,

Then we will simply have to agree to disagree on this, and vigorously. Anyone, and I do mean anyone, who is blind and is sophisticated enough to have joined technology related mailing lists had darned well better know what the point and click equivalents in a screen reader are, or should identify themselves on first post as complete newbies to screen reader use, which is a special circumstance.

It is completely unreasonable, in my opinion, to presume complete "blank slate" or lack of very basic skills as a starting point on any of these groups, and I will not ever do it.

If you've figured out how to join a mailing list, you had ought to know this, as well as how to do a web search with ease. And if you don't, your first order of business should be learning, fast.
--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

If your joy is derived from what society thinks of you, you're always going to be disappointed.

~ Madonna


Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

Gene,

            You are willing to assume a level of ignorance that I cannot, will not, and has not ever been shown to me in all my years of tutoring.  I'll leave it at that.

            Also, you, any you, are obligated to ask for clarification when required.  You are not permitted to demand that any and all advice be given in exactly the format and manner you see fit.

             If you would prefer I leave this list, then say so, I will.  But I will not presume the level of ignorance you do, and I will not put up with demands that all sighted instructions be translated into screen reader language, as I do and will presume any long term user of a computer with a screen reader already knows exactly how to do this, as they will have already read thousands of instruction sets written in "mouse centric" language.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

If your joy is derived from what society thinks of you, you're always going to be disappointed.

        ~ Madonna


Gene
 

I never said that you should leave the list. You have your opinion, as much anger as it may generate on the list. If, however, your opinion generates the amount of traffic I anticipate I may ask that you not repeatedly express it for the sake of the list functioning smoothly and not repeatedly stirring up a lot of emotions for no benefit.

I don't ask people to leave the list because of their opinion. That is a completely different matter than my responsibility to keep the list from becoming too contentious. I have no objection to you expressing this opinion, but not repeatedly.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2020 1:34 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Restoring Classic ALT+TAB behavior in Windows 10, Version20H2

Gene,

You are willing to assume a level of ignorance that I cannot, will not, and has not ever been shown to me in all my years of tutoring. I'll leave it at that.

Also, you, any you, are obligated to ask for clarification when required. You are not permitted to demand that any and all advice be given in exactly the format and manner you see fit.

If you would prefer I leave this list, then say so, I will. But I will not presume the level of ignorance you do, and I will not put up with demands that all sighted instructions be translated into screen reader language, as I do and will presume any long term user of a computer with a screen reader already knows exactly how to do this, as they will have already read thousands of instruction sets written in "mouse centric" language.
--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

If your joy is derived from what society thinks of you, you're always going to be disappointed.

~ Madonna


Hope Williamson
 

OK OK so this is around my 20th year using a screen reader. Yep, I know
how to translate instructions written by sighted people. In fact, I just
did. It took like 15 seconds. I can do it on the fly at this point.

    I get that there are a lot of people not in their20th year, some
are a lot newer. It's just something I learned over time. I didn't have
any formal training for about the first year. Even then, it's something
I picked up between my formal training, and my self-teaching.

On 11/10/2020 11:57 AM, Gene wrote:
I never said that you should leave the list.  You have your opinion,
as much anger as it may generate on the list.  If, however, your
opinion generates the amount of traffic I anticipate I may ask that
you not repeatedly express it for the sake of the list functioning
smoothly and not repeatedly stirring up a lot of emotions for no benefit.

I don't ask people to leave the list because of their opinion. That is
a completely different matter than my responsibility to keep the list
from becoming too contentious.  I have no objection to you expressing
this opinion, but not repeatedly.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2020 1:34 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Restoring Classic ALT+TAB behavior in Windows
10, Version20H2

Gene,

           You are willing to assume a level of ignorance that I
cannot, will not, and has not ever been shown to me in all my years of
tutoring. I'll leave it at that.

           Also, you, any you, are obligated to ask for clarification
when required.  You are not permitted to demand that any and all
advice be given in exactly the format and manner you see fit.

            If you would prefer I leave this list, then say so, I
will. But I will not presume the level of ignorance you do, and I will
not put up with demands that all sighted instructions be translated
into screen reader language, as I do and will presume any long term
user of a computer with a screen reader already knows exactly how to
do this, as they will have already read thousands of instruction sets
written in "mouse centric" language.


Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

On Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 03:37 PM, Hope Williamson wrote:
I get that there are a lot of people not in their 20th year
-
Indeed.  And it's incumbent on them to identify themselves as such.  Anyone who knows me from the various lists I'm on has seen me carefully nurse along true beginners many times.  That's what one should do.

But what I won't do is assume everyone on these lists, or even most on these lists, are true beginners.  Given the names I've been seeing and the time over which I've been seeing them in multiple venues this simply is not the case, which was my central point.

One has to make some assumption about what one believe about a new member if they don't introduce themselves and their skill level.  Mine is they've got basic computer and screen reader skills.  If they don't, and they say so, then one can code shift as appropriate.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

If your joy is derived from what society thinks of you, you're always going to be disappointed.

        ~ Madonna


joanne
 

But as Gene said, everyone is at a different level or does some things quite well but struggles with other facets of learning technology. That is, I thought, one purpose of groups like this: to ask for and receive assistance about screen readers, browsers, etc. And for some of us it is very confusing trying to follow directions that aren't given in a more specific or screen reader-oriented way. I admit to asking a sighted person to be with me on the line when talking to some tech support people, because I wasn't quite getting what the person was wanting me to do. Not giving the phone to a sighted person, but being with them so I could take part in doing what I could. But I wouldn't judge anyone who for the most part depended on people; I mean after all, if they cared enough to join the group, they too may someday feel confident and more able to do things more independently. I do hope people won't be afraid to seek help or ask for something to be clarified because they have been told they should know certain things already. I have received valuable assistance from this group, and I have also found the courage and just plain challenging fun to learn some things on my own. But again, we're all at different learning levels and I think we should not be made to feel we should be at a certain place in tech skills to be a part of this group.

Also, many of us have had training as well as being a part of tech groups. If we received training that didn't really fully explain how sighted people may look at or say something, that doesn't make us less independent. We learn different ways and with different instructors, just as every sighted person is different and at varying skill levels.

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Hope Williamson" <webspinner@mail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2020 3:37 PM
To: <main@TechTalk.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Restoring Classic ALT+TAB behavior in Windows 10, Version20H2

OK OK so this is around my 20th year using a screen reader. Yep, I know
how to translate instructions written by sighted people. In fact, I just
did. It took like 15 seconds. I can do it on the fly at this point.

I get that there are a lot of people not in their20th year, some
are a lot newer. It's just something I learned over time. I didn't have
any formal training for about the first year. Even then, it's something
I picked up between my formal training, and my self-teaching.


On 11/10/2020 11:57 AM, Gene wrote:
I never said that you should leave the list. You have your opinion,
as much anger as it may generate on the list. If, however, your
opinion generates the amount of traffic I anticipate I may ask that
you not repeatedly express it for the sake of the list functioning
smoothly and not repeatedly stirring up a lot of emotions for no benefit.

I don't ask people to leave the list because of their opinion. That is
a completely different matter than my responsibility to keep the list
from becoming too contentious. I have no objection to you expressing
this opinion, but not repeatedly.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2020 1:34 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Restoring Classic ALT+TAB behavior in Windows
10, Version20H2

Gene,

You are willing to assume a level of ignorance that I
cannot, will not, and has not ever been shown to me in all my years of
tutoring. I'll leave it at that.

Also, you, any you, are obligated to ask for clarification
when required. You are not permitted to demand that any and all
advice be given in exactly the format and manner you see fit.

If you would prefer I leave this list, then say so, I
will. But I will not presume the level of ignorance you do, and I will
not put up with demands that all sighted instructions be translated
into screen reader language, as I do and will presume any long term
user of a computer with a screen reader already knows exactly how to
do this, as they will have already read thousands of instruction sets
written in "mouse centric" language.



Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

On Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 03:54 PM, joanne wrote:
But as Gene said, everyone is at a different level or does some things quite well but struggles with other facets of learning technology.
-
A perfectly valid point, and one I agree with 100%, but it has nothing to do with what one can and should use as one's base assumption about the relative skill level of an unknown individual new to a list who's said nothing specific.

You have to make some assumption about what you're aiming for.  It's a matter of where on the skill set level you're presuming.

It's interesting, but I really feel like this entire topic, in this particular group, is a classic example of the old saw, "No good deed goes unpunished."  Also a classic example of, "You can please some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but never all of the people all of the time."   I long ago learned to not even attempt pleasing all of the people even some of the time.  There are some who cannot be pleased.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

If your joy is derived from what society thinks of you, you're always going to be disappointed.

        ~ Madonna


Hope Williamson
 

I've always had a sighted person near by when engaging in tech support.
Mostly because they'll ask if I can see something, the answer is
inevidably well... I don't because I can't see at all. Therefore, I'll
ask them what they can see, and report back to the person. This resulted
in someone hanging up on me once.

On 11/10/2020 12:54 PM, joanne wrote:
But as Gene said, everyone is at a different level or does some things
quite well but struggles with other facets of learning technology.
That is, I thought, one purpose of groups like this: to ask for and
receive assistance about screen readers, browsers, etc. And for some
of us it is very confusing trying to follow directions that aren't
given in a more specific or screen reader-oriented way. I admit to
asking a sighted person to be with me on the line when talking to some
tech support people, because I wasn't quite getting what the person
was wanting me to do. Not giving the phone to a sighted person, but
being with them so I could take part in doing what I could. But I
wouldn't judge anyone who for the most part depended on people; I mean
after all, if they cared enough to join the group, they too may
someday feel confident and more able to do things more independently.
I do hope people won't be afraid to seek help or ask for something to
be clarified because they have been told they should know certain
things already. I have received valuable assistance from this group,
and I have also found the courage and just plain challenging fun to
learn some things on my own. But again, we're all at different
learning levels and I think we should not be made to feel we should be
at a certain place in tech skills to be a part of this group.

Also, many of us have had training as well as being a part of tech
groups. If we received training that didn't really fully explain how
sighted people may look at or say something, that doesn't make us less
independent. We learn different ways and with different instructors,
just as every sighted person is different and at varying skill levels.

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Hope Williamson" <webspinner@mail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2020 3:37 PM
To: <main@TechTalk.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Restoring Classic ALT+TAB behavior in Windows
10, Version20H2

OK OK so this is around my 20th year using a screen reader. Yep, I know
how to translate instructions written by sighted people. In fact, I just
did. It took like 15 seconds. I can do it on the fly at this point.

    I get that there are a lot of people not in their20th year, some
are a lot newer. It's just something I learned over time. I didn't have
any formal training for about the first year. Even then, it's something
I picked up between my formal training, and my self-teaching.


On 11/10/2020 11:57 AM, Gene wrote:
I never said that you should leave the list.  You have your opinion,
as much anger as it may generate on the list.  If, however, your
opinion generates the amount of traffic I anticipate I may ask that
you not repeatedly express it for the sake of the list functioning
smoothly and not repeatedly stirring up a lot of emotions for no
benefit.

I don't ask people to leave the list because of their opinion. That is
a completely different matter than my responsibility to keep the list
from becoming too contentious.  I have no objection to you expressing
this opinion, but not repeatedly.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2020 1:34 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Restoring Classic ALT+TAB behavior in Windows
10, Version20H2

Gene,

           You are willing to assume a level of ignorance that I
cannot, will not, and has not ever been shown to me in all my years of
tutoring. I'll leave it at that.

           Also, you, any you, are obligated to ask for clarification
when required.  You are not permitted to demand that any and all
advice be given in exactly the format and manner you see fit.

            If you would prefer I leave this list, then say so, I
will. But I will not presume the level of ignorance you do, and I will
not put up with demands that all sighted instructions be translated
into screen reader language, as I do and will presume any long term
user of a computer with a screen reader already knows exactly how to
do this, as they will have already read thousands of instruction sets
written in "mouse centric" language.






Hope Williamson
 

Right, and there are some people as far along as I am, who still don't quite pick it up. I have a friend who's like this. I'd have to walk her step-by-step through those instructions. Considering this mostly came from experience, I'm not sure why this happens.



On 11/10/2020 12:44 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 03:37 PM, Hope Williamson wrote:
I get that there are a lot of people not in their 20th year
-
Indeed.  And it's incumbent on them to identify themselves as such.  Anyone who knows me from the various lists I'm on has seen me carefully nurse along true beginners many times.  That's what one should do.

But what I won't do is assume everyone on these lists, or even most on these lists, are true beginners.  Given the names I've been seeing and the time over which I've been seeing them in multiple venues this simply is not the case, which was my central point.

One has to make some assumption about what one believe about a new member if they don't introduce themselves and their skill level.  Mine is they've got basic computer and screen reader skills.  If they don't, and they say so, then one can code shift as appropriate.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

If your joy is derived from what society thinks of you, you're always going to be disappointed.

        ~ Madonna