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locked Talking about quoting threads in the blindness community

Ann Parsons
 

Morning all,

Good heavens, all this hoopla? Joseph, I can understand your frustration, but your message should have gone to Gene privately. Now, we've got a whole slew of messages which are clogging up the list. You ought to know that criticisms of posters, posts and/or the listowner and his/her policies sent to a list are werboten. If I were the list owner, I'd place you on review. However, I'm not he.

Actually, the topic has, I think, run its course. Brian has explained his method, and it does make logical sense. It just requires a bit of info to read efficiently. So, my difficulty with his posts are over. Now that I know the most efficient way to read them, I'm good. So, talk to Gene privately about the list, please.

If you want to read Brian's posts efficiently, and you do not want to read the one or two sentence quote at the top of his posts, do a find for - and you'll be placed right at the top of his posts. He actually takes some time and effort with his posts which is more than a lot of people do. 'nough said.

Ann P.


Original message:

First things first, and I'm going to do it. I wish somebody would've like change the subject line because it has nothing to do with the subject line that's been discussed and I'm quite disappointed at the admin team hasn't done this. Secondly Brian, I've never seen anybody right like what you do, until I started reading emails on groups.io. And I communicate with Senate folks on email quite frequently. There is nobody that writes like what you do it's up Mark in a couple of other people on GMF. And that's about the only time that I even pay attention to that particular writing style. And I'm gonna tell you if this was my list. And you want to write like that to make it confusing for other blind individuals to decipher all that mess and especially if they were a beginner, you know what I would do until you go ahead and start your own list and do just exactly what you're doing here. I probably will be leaving this group sooner than later because I've been reading and deleting this thread for quite some time. And it sounds like it's just come in bunch of bickering back-and-forth. And if the admin team doesn't want me to leave because of the acid that I am to this list and to the health that I do provide occasionally then please take control of your list a little bit better. I'm sorry I had to come down like this but it was quite getting somewhat annoying.
--
Ann K. Parsons
Portal Tutoring
EMAIL: akp@sero.email
Author of The Demmies: http://www.dldbooks.com/annparsons/
Portal Tutoring web site: http://www.portaltutoring.info
Skype: Putertutor

"All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost."
joanne
 

I totally agree with those who don't like to see the original message at the top. The interesting thing is, back in 2001 and somewhat later, when I started joining groups, many sighted people put the original messages on top. At that time most were from AOL, and I did have to delete most of these because yes it's confusing and even putting a hyphen in you still don't know how long the original message is and where to find that hyphen and read the reply. Now it seems that few if any sighted people in groups reply with the original message at the top, and I admit I was a little surprised a blind person would do it simply because many blind people, just like me, were confused and even annoyed by this practice. I wonder if many in the sighted community found it to be as frustrating as we sometimes get, because I haven't seen this hardly at all in groups where mostly sighted people are members. I do know who replies at the bottom in this and another group, and I just delete those messages. Leaving the original message in emails can be very helpful, and many of us leave the originals but at the bottom. I don't want it to be an argument either, and the original member who simply pointed out that it's confusing, wasn't trying to be rude but was trying to just point out something that would be helpful to many of us. Of course people will do what they want, but I don't think this was originally intended to start an argument but to let the poster know that it can be confusing. I'd never tell someone how to post, and just because some of us don't like it that doesn't mean a person has to make a change if he doesn't want to. Without arguing, I'm simply expressing my opinion as others have and that's all.
joanne
 

Thank you, Ann. You presented both sides in a very helpful way, and I will try this method. Yes it's different than how I'd do it, but it sounds to me like you have found an efficient way to read the sender's reply.


--------------------------------------------------
From: "Ann Parsons" <akp@sero.email>
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2020 7:45 AM
To: <main@techtalk.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Talking about quoting threads in the blindness community

Morning all,

Good heavens, all this hoopla? Joseph, I can understand your frustration, but your message should have gone to Gene privately. Now, we've got a whole slew of messages which are clogging up the list. You ought to know that criticisms of posters, posts and/or the listowner and his/her policies sent to a list are werboten. If I were the list owner, I'd place you on review. However, I'm not he.

Actually, the topic has, I think, run its course. Brian has explained his method, and it does make logical sense. It just requires a bit of info to read efficiently. So, my difficulty with his posts are over. Now that I know the most efficient way to read them, I'm good. So, talk to Gene privately about the list, please.

If you want to read Brian's posts efficiently, and you do not want to read the one or two sentence quote at the top of his posts, do a find for - and you'll be placed right at the top of his posts. He actually takes some time and effort with his posts which is more than a lot of people do. 'nough said.

Ann P.


Original message:
First things first, and I'm going to do it. I wish somebody would've like change the subject line because it has nothing to do with the subject line that's been discussed and I'm quite disappointed at the admin team hasn't done this. Secondly Brian, I've never seen anybody right like what you do, until I started reading emails on groups.io. And I communicate with Senate folks on email quite frequently. There is nobody that writes like what you do it's up Mark in a couple of other people on GMF. And that's about the only time that I even pay attention to that particular writing style. And I'm gonna tell you if this was my list. And you want to write like that to make it confusing for other blind individuals to decipher all that mess and especially if they were a beginner, you know what I would do until you go ahead and start your own list and do just exactly what you're doing here. I probably will be leaving this group sooner than later because I've been reading and deleting this thread for quite some time. And it sounds like it's just come in bunch of bickering back-and-forth. And if the admin team doesn't want me to leave because of the acid that I am to this list and to the health that I do provide occasionally then please take control of your list a little bit better. I'm sorry I had to come down like this but it was quite getting somewhat annoying.
--
Ann K. Parsons
Portal Tutoring
EMAIL: akp@sero.email
Author of The Demmies: http://www.dldbooks.com/annparsons/
Portal Tutoring web site: http://www.portaltutoring.info
Skype: Putertutor

"All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost."
Dave
 

Why do Members of a list usually threaten to leave the list when someone
else says something they find objectionable?


Holding yourself Hostage just seems a bit Self Centered to me.


I've been a list owner in years past, and a member of many lists through
the years.


If I don't care for someone's attitude, or their opinions, I rarely kick
them off the list, nor do I cry to the list owner to have them bring
correction.


I use my Delete Key, and I don't read posts with that subject line.  I
once was on a list not too long ago, when I had two other members just
bringing material that was meant to be obnoxious.


I found their comments to be irritating, and so I just stopped reading
anything they posted.  If I could have figured out how to do it, I would
have had my Email program just filter out all messages sent to the list
by these two people.


Instead I just Deleted them by hand.


Everyone has their opinions, and I may not care for some, they still
have the right to state them.


Freedom of Speech is valuable, extremely valuable.  And to lose it, as
we are experiencing in the Western Nations will end up being a terrible
thing.


Be careful what you ask for and demand, as some day it could, and
probably will be used against you.


Grumpy Dave
Laz
 

Hi all,

While this does not excuse the rudeness on the part of Joseph hudson
in his messages, it should be noted that Brian is fully sighted and
does things as a sighted person does. It is far easier for him as a
sighted person to find answers in an email message given in the way he
prefers. As we all know most sighted people don't understand that some
blind people may have to and prefer, to do things slightly differently
than some fully sighted people do for good reason. This is why it's
customary for everyone to top post on mailing lists as most blind
people do.

I hope this clears up any confusions.

Laz list moderator

On 8/27/20, joanne <grandma1323@gmail.com> wrote:
Thank you, Ann. You presented both sides in a very helpful way, and I will
try this method. Yes it's different than how I'd do it, but it sounds to me

like you have found an efficient way to read the sender's reply.


--------------------------------------------------
From: "Ann Parsons" <akp@sero.email>
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2020 7:45 AM
To: <main@techtalk.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Talking about quoting threads in the blindness
community

Morning all,

Good heavens, all this hoopla? Joseph, I can understand your frustration,

but your message should have gone to Gene privately. Now, we've got a
whole slew of messages which are clogging up the list. You ought to know

that criticisms of posters, posts and/or the listowner and his/her
policies sent to a list are werboten. If I were the list owner, I'd place

you on review. However, I'm not he.

Actually, the topic has, I think, run its course. Brian has explained his

method, and it does make logical sense. It just requires a bit of info to

read efficiently. So, my difficulty with his posts are over. Now that I

know the most efficient way to read them, I'm good. So, talk to Gene
privately about the list, please.

If you want to read Brian's posts efficiently, and you do not want to read

the one or two sentence quote at the top of his posts, do a find for - and

you'll be placed right at the top of his posts. He actually takes some
time and effort with his posts which is more than a lot of people do.
'nough said.

Ann P.


Original message:
First things first, and I'm going to do it. I wish somebody would've like

change the subject line because it has nothing to do with the subject
line that's been discussed and I'm quite disappointed at the admin team
hasn't done this. Secondly Brian, I've never seen anybody right like what

you do, until I started reading emails on groups.io. And I communicate
with Senate folks on email quite frequently. There is nobody that writes

like what you do it's up Mark in a couple of other people on GMF. And
that's about the only time that I even pay attention to that particular
writing style. And I'm gonna tell you if this was my list. And you want
to write like that to make it confusing for other blind individuals to
decipher all that mess and especially if they were a beginner, you know
what I would do until you go ahead and start your own list and do just
exactly what you're doing here. I probably will be leaving this group
sooner than later because I've been reading and deleting this thread for

quite some time. And it sounds like it's just come in bunch of bickering

back-and-forth. And if the admin team doesn't want me to leave because of

the acid that I am to this list and to the health that I do provide
occasionally then please take control of your list a little bit better.
I'm sorry I had to come down like this but it was quite getting somewhat

annoying.
--
Ann K. Parsons
Portal Tutoring
EMAIL: akp@sero.email
Author of The Demmies: http://www.dldbooks.com/annparsons/
Portal Tutoring web site: http://www.portaltutoring.info
Skype: Putertutor

"All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost."





--
Affordably priced Accessible Talking MP3 Player/book Reader, Victor
Reader Stream & Trek, blindshell Classic phone, Bluetooth devices, and
accessories
http://www.talkingmp3players.com/
Email: laz@talkingmp3players.com
Phone: 727-498-0121
Personal Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/laz.mesa
Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/Talkingmp3players?_rdr
Carolyn Arnold
 

Yes, Gene, I think you are doing fine. While all of us
thought the world of Carlos, we thought George Washington
was good, but there's no point telling Donald Trump that
George Washington did it this way. George Washington is not
the President now; Donald Trump is. Same with the list.
Carlos does not own it; you do.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io
[mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io] On Behalf Of Angelo
Sonnesso
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2020 3:39 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Talking about quoting threads in the
blindness community

Hi Gene,
You are doing fine.
You will always find someone who has nothing better to do
than criticize Thanks for all you do.

73 N2DYN Angelo

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io
[mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2020 2:02 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Talking about quoting threads in the
blindness community

Though you aren't aware of it I would imagine, the list has
been gradually increasing its members over time. If this
list starts to decline and the reason may be me, I'll
consider appointing another owner. Laaz would make a

good owner. He is now the moderator. I put the well-being
of the list above whether I am owner. I am pleased to serve
as owner. If that becomes detrimental to the list, I'll
step down if I am convinced that is the right thing to do.
I am not list owner for my ego. I'm list owner because I
was asked to be and people generally approved.

Now, if you wish to continue to insult me and show your
disdain for how the list is run, please do so on the chat
list, where almost anything is allowed

to be discussed.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: joseph hudson
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2020 12:49 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Talking about quoting threads in the
blindness community

Well I think he would've made an issue out of it if they
were over 71 messages in the thread and what was being
discussed was no longer relevant to the current subject
line. And I just had to go back to my trash folder and I
found the thread, and that thread his head 71 messages
probably plus yes, I no you talk about not being guilty of
changing subject lines but I think after a while he would've
come forward and requested the change. Oh well it's your
list it'll fall apart just like others that I've been a part
of have. It's OK.
On Aug 27, 2020, at 12:37 AM, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com>
wrote:

No, Carlos never strictly enforced that rule. I remember
a message
where he said it would be a good thing if people change
subject lines
if the discussion changes in a thread but that it is so
common that
this isn't done that he wouldn't stricgtlhy enforce it.
He even said
that he is guilty of not changing subject lines himself.

I believe he would change a subject line off and on. he
may have
reminded
list members that it would be a good thing if they did but
as I said,
he never made much of an issue about it.
Gene
-----Original Message----- From: joseph hudson
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2020 12:10 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Talking about quoting threads in
the blindness
community

Hi Brian, I'm fully aware of the functionality of
groups.io. That's
not the point. I was interested in the discussion at hand.
And I know
one of Carlos's rules was to keep subject lines on topic
especially
whenever I came to the tech talk group.
joseph hudson

Email FaceTime and iMessage
jhud7789@twc.com


Office phone/what's up messenger

254-300-7667

Emergency sell

254-813-2461

https://www.facebook.com/joseph.hudson.9404

https://twitter.com/josephhudson89

On Aug 26, 2020, at 11:58 PM, Brian Vogel
<britechguy@gmail.com> wrote:

Let's not forget that at the bottom of each and every
message that
arrives from Groups.io, whether individual messages or in
digests, is
the
Mute this topic link. If a topic is no longer of
interest, which can
happen, that's what it's there for.

Anyone can also set up topic preview for any Groups.io
group, if
they're willing to log in to their Groups.io account to
do so.
Controlling the Messages You Receive via E-Mail from
Groups.io
(docx). This can be very,
very handy on high-traffic groups where it's a select few
topics that
you
really have an interest in.

Those using any service owe it to themselves to become
familiar with
the features offered, and Groups.io gives individual
users a far
greater degree of control than many.

--
Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041
Always
remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs -
they rarely
fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off
and on.
~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on
Technibble.com
Carolyn Arnold
 

I, for one, will not bother with bottom posting. If it is not at the top, where it is convenient to read, I just move on to the next one.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io [mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io] On Behalf Of joanne
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2020 7:49 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Talking about quoting threads in the blindness community

I totally agree with those who don't like to see the original message at the top. The interesting thing is, back in 2001 and somewhat later, when I started joining groups, many sighted people put the original messages on top. At that time most were from AOL, and I did have to delete most of these because yes it's confusing and even putting a hyphen in you still don't know how long the original message is and where to find that hyphen and read the reply. Now it seems that few if any sighted people in groups reply with the original message at the top, and I admit I was a little surprised a blind person would do it simply because many blind people, just like me, were confused and even annoyed by this practice. I wonder if many in the sighted community found it to be as frustrating as we sometimes get, because I haven't seen this hardly at all in groups where mostly sighted people are members. I do know who replies at the bottom in this and another group, and I just delete those messages. Leaving the original message in emails can be very helpful, and many of us leave the originals but at the bottom. I don't want it to be an argument either, and the original member who simply pointed out that it's confusing, wasn't trying to be rude but was trying to just point out something that would be helpful to many of us. Of course people will do what they want, but I don't think this was originally intended to start an argument but to let the poster know that it can be confusing. I'd never tell someone how to post, and just because some of us don't like it that doesn't mean a person has to make a change if he doesn't want to.
Without arguing, I'm simply expressing my opinion as others have and that's all.
Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
 

On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 10:24 AM, Laz wrote:
it should be noted that Brian is fully sighted and does things as a sighted person does
-
Indeed I am and do.  I've never made a secret of the fact I'm fully sighted.

That doesn't make any of the rest of your message have the slightest bit of validity.  I've been working with blind individuals for many, many years now, and am acutely aware of "how things work."  But the fact is that "how things work" in any community often need to be changed, at least somewhat.

The obsession with only top-posting, and never including any reference material before starting one's own content, is one of those things.  I hear, and frequently, "We/I want to be treated just like anyone else."  Well, I'm not going to back down on my earlier assertion that this particular style of "quote response quote response" has been the norm in most email I've dealt with since the 1980s when one cannot simply presume that the reader will know exactly who and/or what is being replied to at the outset.  It's long past time that the complaints about this cease, period.   It's done, it's done commonly, you (any you) need to know how to deal with it.  And most sighted people would not bother with including a hyphen, as I do, because they'd have no reason to believe it is necessary.

I do conform myself to the customs of any community in which I participate when possible and when those customs do not interfere with effective communication.  If I had not left the tiny bit of context at the outset to which I was replying, this message would have been much less clear.  It's that simply, so I'm not going to even try to please those that want me to write in a manner I know to be less clear, not more so.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.

        ~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com
Carolyn Arnold
 

If I intend to leave a list, I do not intrude on everyone in the list, just simply to go bottom of email and click on unsubscribe. If I'm leaving, why throw a fit about it, just bye, bye, way easier for me and everyone.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io [mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io] On Behalf Of Dave
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2020 10:12 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Talking about quoting threads in the blindness community

Why do Members of a list usually threaten to leave the list when someone else says something they find objectionable?


Holding yourself Hostage just seems a bit Self Centered to me.


I've been a list owner in years past, and a member of many lists through the years.


If I don't care for someone's attitude, or their opinions, I rarely kick them off the list, nor do I cry to the list owner to have them bring correction.


I use my Delete Key, and I don't read posts with that subject line. I once was on a list not too long ago, when I had two other members just bringing material that was meant to be obnoxious.


I found their comments to be irritating, and so I just stopped reading anything they posted. If I could have figured out how to do it, I would have had my Email program just filter out all messages sent to the list by these two people.


Instead I just Deleted them by hand.


Everyone has their opinions, and I may not care for some, they still have the right to state them.


Freedom of Speech is valuable, extremely valuable. And to lose it, as we are experiencing in the Western Nations will end up being a terrible thing.


Be careful what you ask for and demand, as some day it could, and probably will be used against you.


Grumpy Dave
Laz
 

Actually this isn't always the case; mostly people actually just leave
quietly. However in Joseph Hudson's case I believe he wanted people to
know that he has his own list where he does things his way and
announced it after attacking this list's owner. This is not the first
time he has done this.

And yes, Gene has done a marvelous jobrunning this list closely
channeling Carlos.

Stay well,

Laz

On 8/27/20, Dave <dlh007@centurylink.net> wrote:
Why do Members of a list usually threaten to leave the list when someone
else says something they find objectionable?


Holding yourself Hostage just seems a bit Self Centered to me.


I've been a list owner in years past, and a member of many lists through
the years.


If I don't care for someone's attitude, or their opinions, I rarely kick
them off the list, nor do I cry to the list owner to have them bring
correction.


I use my Delete Key, and I don't read posts with that subject line. I
once was on a list not too long ago, when I had two other members just
bringing material that was meant to be obnoxious.


I found their comments to be irritating, and so I just stopped reading
anything they posted. If I could have figured out how to do it, I would
have had my Email program just filter out all messages sent to the list
by these two people.


Instead I just Deleted them by hand.


Everyone has their opinions, and I may not care for some, they still
have the right to state them.


Freedom of Speech is valuable, extremely valuable. And to lose it, as
we are experiencing in the Western Nations will end up being a terrible
thing.


Be careful what you ask for and demand, as some day it could, and
probably will be used against you.


Grumpy Dave






--
Affordably priced Accessible Talking MP3 Player/book Reader, Victor
Reader Stream & Trek, blindshell Classic phone, Bluetooth devices, and
accessories
http://www.talkingmp3players.com/
Email: laz@talkingmp3players.com
Phone: 727-498-0121
Personal Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/laz.mesa
Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/Talkingmp3players?_rdr
Carolyn Arnold
 

I would much rather someone post, Brian, like you, and a few others with a bit on top about what was said that just post and cut off at their message, where, sometimes, I have to flounder to know what in the world they are talking about, with no reference.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io [mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2020 10:34 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Talking about quoting threads in the blindness community

On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 10:24 AM, Laz wrote:


it should be noted that Brian is fully sighted and does things as a sighted person does

-
Indeed I am and do. I've never made a secret of the fact I'm fully sighted.

That doesn't make any of the rest of your message have the slightest bit of validity. I've been working with blind individuals for many, many years now, and am acutely aware of "how things work." But the fact is that "how things work" in any community often need to be changed, at least somewhat.

The obsession with only top-posting, and never including any reference material before starting one's own content, is one of those things. I hear, and frequently, "We/I want to be treated just like anyone else." Well, I'm not going to back down on my earlier assertion that this particular style of "quote response quote response" has been the norm in most email I've dealt with since the 1980s when one cannot simply presume that the reader will know exactly who and/or what is being replied to at the outset. It's long past time that the complaints about this cease, period. It's done, it's done commonly, you (any you) need to know how to deal with it. And most sighted people would not bother with including a hyphen, as I do, because they'd have no reason to believe it is necessary.

I do conform myself to the customs of any community in which I participate when possible and when those customs do not interfere with effective communication. If I had not left the tiny bit of context at the outset to which I was replying, this message would have been much less clear. It's that simply, so I'm not going to even try to please those that want me to write in a manner I know to be less clear, not more so.

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.

~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com
Pamela Dominguez
 

I am the same way. Sometimes, it takes so long to find the message. Pam.

-----Original Message-----
From: Carolyn Arnold
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2020 10:29 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Talking about quoting threads in the blindness community

I, for one, will not bother with bottom posting. If it is not at the top, where it is convenient to read, I just move on to the next one.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io [mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io] On Behalf Of joanne
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2020 7:49 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Talking about quoting threads in the blindness community

I totally agree with those who don't like to see the original message at the top. The interesting thing is, back in 2001 and somewhat later, when I started joining groups, many sighted people put the original messages on top. At that time most were from AOL, and I did have to delete most of these because yes it's confusing and even putting a hyphen in you still don't know how long the original message is and where to find that hyphen and read the reply. Now it seems that few if any sighted people in groups reply with the original message at the top, and I admit I was a little surprised a blind person would do it simply because many blind people, just like me, were confused and even annoyed by this practice. I wonder if many in the sighted community found it to be as frustrating as we sometimes get, because I haven't seen this hardly at all in groups where mostly sighted people are members. I do know who replies at the bottom in this and another group, and I just delete those messages. Leaving the original message in emails can be very helpful, and many of us leave the originals but at the bottom. I don't want it to be an argument either, and the original member who simply pointed out that it's confusing, wasn't trying to be rude but was trying to just point out something that would be helpful to many of us. Of course people will do what they want, but I don't think this was originally intended to start an argument but to let the poster know that it can be confusing. I'd never tell someone how to post, and just because some of us don't like it that doesn't mean a person has to make a change if he doesn't want to.
Without arguing, I'm simply expressing my opinion as others have and that's all.









--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com
Laz
 

Hmm. I post a message so that people have a fuller understanding of
where you're coming from and you point out how invalid my message is.

It's not an obsession to top post;it's what we as blind people find
easier for us. And please explain to us why the majority of blind
people on every list you join need to adopt your way of doing things
instead of you adapting to the way things are done on a blind mailing
list?

You have to walk the walk of being blind before you actually
understand what it's like; it's not something you jusdt pick up from
talking with some blind people, reading books, watching movies andTV
shows, etc. It doesn't just rub off of them and onto yourself. It's an
experience that until you go through it yourself you can't claim to
understand what it's like to be blind.

Please attempt to be civil in your replies and messages.

Laz

On 8/27/20, Brian Vogel <britechguy@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 10:24 AM, Laz wrote:


it should be noted that Brian is fully sighted and does things as a
sighted person does
-
Indeed I am and do. I've never made a secret of the fact I'm fully
sighted.

That doesn't make any of the rest of your message have the slightest bit of
validity. I've been working with blind individuals for many, many years
now, and am acutely aware of "how things work." But the fact is that "how
things work" in any community often need to be changed, at least somewhat.

The obsession with only top-posting, and never including any reference
material before starting one's own content, is one of those things. I hear,
and frequently, "We/I want to be treated just like anyone else." Well, I'm
not going to back down on my earlier assertion that this particular style of
"quote response quote response" has been the norm in most email I've dealt
with since the 1980s when one cannot simply presume that the reader will
know exactly who and/or what is being replied to at the outset. It's long
past time that the complaints about this cease, period. It's done, it's
done commonly, you (any you) need to know how to deal with it. And most
sighted people would not bother with including a hyphen, as I do, because
they'd have no reason to believe it is necessary.

I do conform myself to the customs of any community in which I participate
when possible and when those customs do not interfere with effective
communication. If I had not left the tiny bit of context at the outset to
which I was replying, this message would have been much less clear. It's
that simply, so I'm not going to even try to please those that want me to
write in a manner I know to be less clear, not more so.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

*Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely
fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.*

~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com



--
Affordably priced Accessible Talking MP3 Player/book Reader, Victor
Reader Stream & Trek, blindshell Classic phone, Bluetooth devices, and
accessories
http://www.talkingmp3players.com/
Email: laz@talkingmp3players.com
Phone: 727-498-0121
Personal Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/laz.mesa
Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/Talkingmp3players?_rdr
Gene
 

the message quoted below mine may start a debate about equality, and other issues that may be divisive. I'll be watching the thread closely and I'll close the thread if it becomes too divisive. The chat list may be appropriate for such a discussion, which may start to range far beyond the province of this list.

I will say the following:
For those who are only on lists of almost exclusively blind users, they may feel no need to learn how to function efficiently on lists composed mostly of sighted users. That's fine. It is true that if a blind person wants to participate on a list of mostly sighted users, the thing to do is to learn how to function in that environment and culture. Different people have different cultures. What may be fine in blindness list culture might not be fine in sighted list culture. Both should be respected because both have developed to meet the convenience and needs of users who do things differently.

I think that screen-reader developers should make a point of developing commands that skip quoted material so a blind person can do what a sighted person does, that is, on a sighted list, skip quoted material and quickly and efficiently go to new content. So the problem is not only how blind people do things, it is what the technology we use allows us to do efficiently and what not.

In the speciffic case of people posting a line or two from a previous message above their reply, that isn't bottom posting and I see some people do this on various lists of primarily blind users.

As I said yesterday, it is important for blind people to think about context and look around. it is very easy to down arrow past this small amount of material, then use read to end.

It is an unfortunate aspect of a lot of computer training of blind people, but people often aren't taught to do this and think in those terms. They are taught to do things but not taught how to consider context and look around. this unnecessarily limits or causes problems for a lot of blind computer users.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2020 9:34 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Talking about quoting threads in the blindness community

On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 10:24 AM, Laz wrote:
it should be noted that Brian is fully sighted and does things as a sighted person does-
Indeed I am and do. I've never made a secret of the fact I'm fully sighted.

That doesn't make any of the rest of your message have the slightest bit of validity. I've been working with blind individuals for many, many years now, and am acutely aware of "how things work." But the fact is that "how things work" in any community often need to be changed, at least somewhat.

The obsession with only top-posting, and never including any reference material before starting one's own content, is one of those things. I hear, and frequently, "We/I want to be treated just like anyone else." Well, I'm not going to back down on my earlier assertion that this particular style of "quote response quote response" has been the norm in most email I've dealt with since the 1980s when one cannot simply presume that the reader will know exactly who and/or what is being replied to at the outset. It's long past time that the complaints about this cease, period. It's done, it's done commonly, you (any you) need to know how to deal with it. And most sighted people would not bother with including a hyphen, as I do, because they'd have no reason to believe it is necessary.

I do conform myself to the customs of any community in which I participate when possible and when those customs do not interfere with effective communication. If I had not left the tiny bit of context at the outset to which I was replying, this message would have been much less clear. It's that simply, so I'm not going to even try to please those that want me to write in a manner I know to be less clear, not more so.

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.

~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com
Howard Traxler
 

Just a simple question:  When replying to a message, changing the subject line; seems like some list owners call this "high jacking"? They tell us to start a new message thread.  Maybe I'm thinking of something entirely different, huh?

Howard

On 8/27/2020 12:37 AM, Gene wrote:
No, Carlos never strictly enforced that rule.  I remember a message where he said it would be a good thing if people change subject lines if the discussion changes in a thread but that it is so common that this isn't done that he wouldn't stricgtlhy enforce it.  He even said that he is guilty of not changing subject lines himself.

I believe he would change a subject line off and on.  he may have reminded list members that it would be a good thing if they did but as I said, he never made much of an issue about it.
Gene
-----Original Message----- From: joseph hudson
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2020 12:10 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Talking about quoting threads in the blindness community

Hi Brian, I'm fully aware of the functionality of groups.io. That's not the point. I was interested in the discussion at hand. And I know one of Carlos's rules was to keep subject lines on topic especially whenever I came to the tech talk group.
joseph hudson

Email FaceTime and iMessage
jhud7789@twc.com


Office phone/what's up messenger

254-300-7667

Emergency sell

254-813-2461

https://www.facebook.com/joseph.hudson.9404

https://twitter.com/josephhudson89

On Aug 26, 2020, at 11:58 PM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@gmail.com> wrote:

Let's not forget that at the bottom of each and every message that arrives from Groups.io, whether individual messages or in digests, is the Mute this topic link.  If a topic is no longer of interest, which can happen, that's what it's there for.

Anyone can also set up topic preview for any Groups.io group, if they're willing to log in to their Groups.io account to do so. Controlling the Messages You Receive via E-Mail from Groups.io (docx).  This can be very, very handy on high-traffic groups where it's a select few topics that you really have an interest in.

Those using any service owe it to themselves to become familiar with the features offered, and Groups.io gives individual users a far greater degree of control than many.

--
Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041
Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.
        ~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com
Monte Single
 

Hi Laz

Thanks for your post.
Apart from the many list I am subscribed to, I used email at work for almost thirty years. I worked for a school board with 2500 employees. Top posting was the standard email formaqt.
I estimate I have processed about 10 million emails since I started using computers. Top posting is the standard I find on all lists I have used.
Brian get the prize for being the 1 outstannding bottom poster.

Thanks,

Monte

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Laz
Sent: August 27, 2020 9:05 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Talking about quoting threads in the blindness community

Hmm. I post a message so that people have a fuller understanding of where you're coming from and you point out how invalid my message is.

It's not an obsession to top post;it's what we as blind people find easier for us. And please explain to us why the majority of blind people on every list you join need to adopt your way of doing things instead of you adapting to the way things are done on a blind mailing list?

You have to walk the walk of being blind before you actually understand what it's like; it's not something you jusdt pick up from talking with some blind people, reading books, watching movies andTV shows, etc. It doesn't just rub off of them and onto yourself. It's an experience that until you go through it yourself you can't claim to understand what it's like to be blind.

Please attempt to be civil in your replies and messages.

Laz

On 8/27/20, Brian Vogel <britechguy@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 10:24 AM, Laz wrote:


it should be noted that Brian is fully sighted and does things as a
sighted person does
-
Indeed I am and do. I've never made a secret of the fact I'm fully
sighted.

That doesn't make any of the rest of your message have the slightest
bit of validity. I've been working with blind individuals for many,
many years now, and am acutely aware of "how things work." But the
fact is that "how things work" in any community often need to be changed, at least somewhat.

The obsession with only top-posting, and never including any reference
material before starting one's own content, is one of those things. I
hear, and frequently, "We/I want to be treated just like anyone else."
Well, I'm not going to back down on my earlier assertion that this
particular style of "quote response quote response" has been the norm
in most email I've dealt with since the 1980s when one cannot simply
presume that the reader will know exactly who and/or what is being replied to at the outset. It's long
past time that the complaints about this cease, period. It's done, it's
done commonly, you (any you) need to know how to deal with it. And
most sighted people would not bother with including a hyphen, as I do,
because they'd have no reason to believe it is necessary.

I do conform myself to the customs of any community in which I
participate when possible and when those customs do not interfere with
effective communication. If I had not left the tiny bit of context at
the outset to which I was replying, this message would have been much
less clear. It's that simply, so I'm not going to even try to please
those that want me to write in a manner I know to be less clear, not more so.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

*Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they
rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and
on.*

~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com




--
Affordably priced Accessible Talking MP3 Player/book Reader, Victor Reader Stream & Trek, blindshell Classic phone, Bluetooth devices, and accessories http://www.talkingmp3players.com/
Email: laz@talkingmp3players.com
Phone: 727-498-0121
Personal Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/laz.mesa
Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/Talkingmp3players?_rdr
Laz
 

Great message! Actually some people send totally disrelated messages
byjust changing thesubject line instead of just sending a new message
to a list. Sometimes they remove any traces of the original message,
sometimes they don't. This is not the normal way of sending a new
message to a list however. To send a new message to a list one sends a
new message to the list email address.

Changing a subject line may not remove it from the message thread it
is part of as if one were to send an entirely new message. I don't
know this for a fact but I believe there's something in the message
headers that keeps it associated with the original subject in the
message thread.

Stay well,

Laz

On 8/27/20, Howard Traxler <htraxler7@gmail.com> wrote:
Just a simple question: When replying to a message, changing the
subject line; seems like some list owners call this "high jacking"? They
tell us to start a new message thread. Maybe I'm thinking of something
entirely different, huh?

Howard

On 8/27/2020 12:37 AM, Gene wrote:
No, Carlos never strictly enforced that rule. I remember a message
where he said it would be a good thing if people change subject lines
if the discussion changes in a thread but that it is so common that
this isn't done that he wouldn't stricgtlhy enforce it. He even said
that he is guilty of not changing subject lines himself.

I believe he would change a subject line off and on. he may have
reminded list members that it would be a good thing if they did but as
I said, he never made much of an issue about it.
Gene
-----Original Message----- From: joseph hudson
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2020 12:10 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Talking about quoting threads in the blindness
community

Hi Brian, I'm fully aware of the functionality of groups.io. That's
not the point. I was interested in the discussion at hand. And I know
one of Carlos's rules was to keep subject lines on topic especially
whenever I came to the tech talk group.
joseph hudson

Email FaceTime and iMessage
jhud7789@twc.com


Office phone/what's up messenger

254-300-7667

Emergency sell

254-813-2461

https://www.facebook.com/joseph.hudson.9404

https://twitter.com/josephhudson89

On Aug 26, 2020, at 11:58 PM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@gmail.com> wrote:

Let's not forget that at the bottom of each and every message that
arrives from Groups.io, whether individual messages or in digests, is
the Mute this topic link. If a topic is no longer of interest, which
can happen, that's what it's there for.

Anyone can also set up topic preview for any Groups.io group, if
they're willing to log in to their Groups.io account to do so.
Controlling the Messages You Receive via E-Mail from Groups.io
(docx). This can be very, very handy on high-traffic groups where
it's a select few topics that you really have an interest in.

Those using any service owe it to themselves to become familiar with
the features offered, and Groups.io gives individual users a far
greater degree of control than many.

--
Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041
Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they
rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.
~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com








--
Affordably priced Accessible Talking MP3 Player/book Reader, Victor
Reader Stream & Trek, blindshell Classic phone, Bluetooth devices, and
accessories
http://www.talkingmp3players.com/
Email: laz@talkingmp3players.com
Phone: 727-498-0121
Personal Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/laz.mesa
Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/Talkingmp3players?_rdr
Dave
 

So I need to be Blind before I could ever understand what it is like to
be blind?


This is just not true.  I hear black people say this same sort of thing
when they are talking with someone they disagree with.


You could never understand what it's like to be Black, a woman, an
Indian, a Short person, an extremely tall person, a Bald person what
ever unless you are one of those people. Silly thinking in my opinion.


I am not a Great Cook.  but, I can tell when a Cooked Meal is a Bad Meal.


Someone who has been around others, who happen to be blind ought to have
learned a few things about what someone blind has to do differently to
accomplish the same tasks as a sighted person.



I for one, find the statement that a person doesn't understand another
because they themselves are not like that other person, to be very wrong.


Some are better than others at putting themselves into the Shoes of
another person, so not all people may be able to understand the life of
someone blind, but there are those who can, and do all the time.



Grumpy Dave

On 8/27/2020 8:04 AM, Laz wrote:
Hmm. I post a message so that people have a fuller understanding of
where you're coming from and you point out how invalid my message is.

It's not an obsession to top post;it's what we as blind people find
easier for us. And please explain to us why the majority of blind
people on every list you join need to adopt your way of doing things
instead of you adapting to the way things are done on a blind mailing
list?

You have to walk the walk of being blind before you actually
understand what it's like; it's not something you jusdt pick up from
talking with some blind people, reading books, watching movies andTV
shows, etc. It doesn't just rub off of them and onto yourself. It's an
experience that until you go through it yourself you can't claim to
understand what it's like to be blind.

Please attempt to be civil in your replies and messages.

Laz

On 8/27/20, Brian Vogel <britechguy@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 10:24 AM, Laz wrote:

it should be noted that Brian is fully sighted and does things as a
sighted person does
-
Indeed I am and do. I've never made a secret of the fact I'm fully
sighted.

That doesn't make any of the rest of your message have the slightest bit of
validity. I've been working with blind individuals for many, many years
now, and am acutely aware of "how things work." But the fact is that "how
things work" in any community often need to be changed, at least somewhat.

The obsession with only top-posting, and never including any reference
material before starting one's own content, is one of those things. I hear,
and frequently, "We/I want to be treated just like anyone else." Well, I'm
not going to back down on my earlier assertion that this particular style of
"quote response quote response" has been the norm in most email I've dealt
with since the 1980s when one cannot simply presume that the reader will
know exactly who and/or what is being replied to at the outset. It's long
past time that the complaints about this cease, period. It's done, it's
done commonly, you (any you) need to know how to deal with it. And most
sighted people would not bother with including a hyphen, as I do, because
they'd have no reason to believe it is necessary.

I do conform myself to the customs of any community in which I participate
when possible and when those customs do not interfere with effective
communication. If I had not left the tiny bit of context at the outset to
which I was replying, this message would have been much less clear. It's
that simply, so I'm not going to even try to please those that want me to
write in a manner I know to be less clear, not more so.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

*Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely
fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.*

~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com
Monte Single
 

Ooops,
That is 1 million, not 10.
Please forgive my clutter.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Monte Single
Sent: August 27, 2020 9:51 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Talking about quoting threads in the blindness community

Hi Laz

Thanks for your post.
Apart from the many list I am subscribed to, I used email at work for almost thirty years. I worked for a school board with 2500 employees. Top posting was the standard email formaqt.
I estimate I have processed about 10 million emails since I started using computers. Top posting is the standard I find on all lists I have used.
Brian get the prize for being the 1 outstannding bottom poster.

Thanks,

Monte



-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Laz
Sent: August 27, 2020 9:05 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Talking about quoting threads in the blindness community

Hmm. I post a message so that people have a fuller understanding of where you're coming from and you point out how invalid my message is.

It's not an obsession to top post;it's what we as blind people find easier for us. And please explain to us why the majority of blind people on every list you join need to adopt your way of doing things instead of you adapting to the way things are done on a blind mailing list?

You have to walk the walk of being blind before you actually understand what it's like; it's not something you jusdt pick up from talking with some blind people, reading books, watching movies andTV shows, etc. It doesn't just rub off of them and onto yourself. It's an experience that until you go through it yourself you can't claim to understand what it's like to be blind.

Please attempt to be civil in your replies and messages.

Laz

On 8/27/20, Brian Vogel <britechguy@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 10:24 AM, Laz wrote:


it should be noted that Brian is fully sighted and does things as a
sighted person does
-
Indeed I am and do. I've never made a secret of the fact I'm fully
sighted.

That doesn't make any of the rest of your message have the slightest
bit of validity. I've been working with blind individuals for many,
many years now, and am acutely aware of "how things work." But the
fact is that "how things work" in any community often need to be changed, at least somewhat.

The obsession with only top-posting, and never including any reference
material before starting one's own content, is one of those things. I
hear, and frequently, "We/I want to be treated just like anyone else."
Well, I'm not going to back down on my earlier assertion that this
particular style of "quote response quote response" has been the norm
in most email I've dealt with since the 1980s when one cannot simply
presume that the reader will know exactly who and/or what is being replied to at the outset. It's long
past time that the complaints about this cease, period. It's done, it's
done commonly, you (any you) need to know how to deal with it. And
most sighted people would not bother with including a hyphen, as I do,
because they'd have no reason to believe it is necessary.

I do conform myself to the customs of any community in which I
participate when possible and when those customs do not interfere with
effective communication. If I had not left the tiny bit of context at
the outset to which I was replying, this message would have been much
less clear. It's that simply, so I'm not going to even try to please
those that want me to write in a manner I know to be less clear, not more so.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

*Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they
rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and
on.*

~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com




--
Affordably priced Accessible Talking MP3 Player/book Reader, Victor Reader Stream & Trek, blindshell Classic phone, Bluetooth devices, and accessories http://www.talkingmp3players.com/
Email: laz@talkingmp3players.com
Phone: 727-498-0121
Personal Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/laz.mesa
Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/Talkingmp3players?_rdr
Laz
 

Hi Monte,

You have a similar experience to mine. In all the lists I've ever been
on only one which is a technical list with mostly firmware developers
on it, recommends bottom posting; they however don't make a big deal
about it if an individual top posts. On that list I always bottom
post.

At times if I'm asked several questions in an email message I will let
the person know that my answers can be found below their questions
marked with an asterisk in order to make it easier for myself and for
them to easily find the answers they sought.

When it comes to lists with mainly blind people on them i've only seen
a total of about 3 individuals who insist on bottom posting and refus
to consider any other way of replying to messages. Of course as stated
by some on this very list, those messages may just end up being
ignored. (shrugs)

Stay well,

Laz

On 8/27/20, Monte Single <mrsingle@sasktel.net> wrote:
Hi Laz

Thanks for your post.
Apart from the many list I am subscribed to, I used email at work for
almost thirty years. I worked for a school board with 2500 employees. Top
posting was the standard email formaqt.
I estimate I have processed about 10 million emails since I started using
computers. Top posting is the standard I find on all lists I have used.
Brian get the prize for being the 1 outstannding bottom poster.

Thanks,

Monte



-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Laz
Sent: August 27, 2020 9:05 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Talking about quoting threads in the blindness
community

Hmm. I post a message so that people have a fuller understanding of where
you're coming from and you point out how invalid my message is.

It's not an obsession to top post;it's what we as blind people find easier
for us. And please explain to us why the majority of blind people on every
list you join need to adopt your way of doing things instead of you adapting
to the way things are done on a blind mailing list?

You have to walk the walk of being blind before you actually understand what
it's like; it's not something you jusdt pick up from talking with some blind
people, reading books, watching movies andTV shows, etc. It doesn't just rub
off of them and onto yourself. It's an experience that until you go through
it yourself you can't claim to understand what it's like to be blind.

Please attempt to be civil in your replies and messages.

Laz

On 8/27/20, Brian Vogel <britechguy@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 10:24 AM, Laz wrote:


it should be noted that Brian is fully sighted and does things as a
sighted person does
-
Indeed I am and do. I've never made a secret of the fact I'm fully
sighted.

That doesn't make any of the rest of your message have the slightest
bit of validity. I've been working with blind individuals for many,
many years now, and am acutely aware of "how things work." But the
fact is that "how things work" in any community often need to be changed,
at least somewhat.

The obsession with only top-posting, and never including any reference
material before starting one's own content, is one of those things. I
hear, and frequently, "We/I want to be treated just like anyone else."
Well, I'm not going to back down on my earlier assertion that this
particular style of "quote response quote response" has been the norm
in most email I've dealt with since the 1980s when one cannot simply
presume that the reader will know exactly who and/or what is being replied
to at the outset. It's long
past time that the complaints about this cease, period. It's done, it's
done commonly, you (any you) need to know how to deal with it. And
most sighted people would not bother with including a hyphen, as I do,
because they'd have no reason to believe it is necessary.

I do conform myself to the customs of any community in which I
participate when possible and when those customs do not interfere with
effective communication. If I had not left the tiny bit of context at
the outset to which I was replying, this message would have been much
less clear. It's that simply, so I'm not going to even try to please
those that want me to write in a manner I know to be less clear, not more
so.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

*Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they
rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and
on.*

~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com




--
Affordably priced Accessible Talking MP3 Player/book Reader, Victor Reader
Stream & Trek, blindshell Classic phone, Bluetooth devices, and accessories
http://www.talkingmp3players.com/
Email: laz@talkingmp3players.com
Phone: 727-498-0121
Personal Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/laz.mesa
Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/Talkingmp3players?_rdr






--
Affordably priced Accessible Talking MP3 Player/book Reader, Victor
Reader Stream & Trek, blindshell Classic phone, Bluetooth devices, and
accessories
http://www.talkingmp3players.com/
Email: laz@talkingmp3players.com
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