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locked Talking about quoting threads in the blindness community


Gene
 

I also disagree that you have to be blind to know what it is like to be blind. But what is causing discord on the list, I think, is the lecturing I know best and that's the last word, attitude of many of your messages Brian when it comes to what blind people should do and be. These things can be discussed and the same points can be made in ways that don't stir up this kind of dissention.

As I've ;pointed out, context is important, where is the blind person functioning? As I've pointed out, training is one reason such problems exist. On a list like this, in discussing questions, the point is not to change the world and rehabilitate and revolutionize how blind people who don't meet your standards and philosophy think about blindness or how they should do things. Encouraging people to do more is fine. Lecturing about what you won't tolerate and how people function as blind people accomplishes nothing and is divisive. Such points can be made with a far different tone.

I'm not questioning your motivation to be helpful and your commitment to equality for blind people. That doesn't mean you are implementing your commitment constructively.

It is my job to keep the list a friendly place and not to allow division and acrimony to occur on the list. of course, there will be some from time to time, but this thread has gotten out of hand. While I don't like to stop discussion, this thread has taken over the list. I am going to close it. If you want to reply, fine but within the next fifteen minutes, I will close it.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Dave
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2020 11:05 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Talking about quoting threads in the blindness community

So I need to be Blind before I could ever understand what it is like to
be blind?


This is just not true. I hear black people say this same sort of thing
when they are talking with someone they disagree with.


You could never understand what it's like to be Black, a woman, an
Indian, a Short person, an extremely tall person, a Bald person what
ever unless you are one of those people. Silly thinking in my opinion.


I am not a Great Cook. but, I can tell when a Cooked Meal is a Bad Meal.


Someone who has been around others, who happen to be blind ought to have
learned a few things about what someone blind has to do differently to
accomplish the same tasks as a sighted person.



I for one, find the statement that a person doesn't understand another
because they themselves are not like that other person, to be very wrong.


Some are better than others at putting themselves into the Shoes of
another person, so not all people may be able to understand the life of
someone blind, but there are those who can, and do all the time.



Grumpy Dave

On 8/27/2020 8:04 AM, Laz wrote:
Hmm. I post a message so that people have a fuller understanding of
where you're coming from and you point out how invalid my message is.

It's not an obsession to top post;it's what we as blind people find
easier for us. And please explain to us why the majority of blind
people on every list you join need to adopt your way of doing things
instead of you adapting to the way things are done on a blind mailing
list?

You have to walk the walk of being blind before you actually
understand what it's like; it's not something you jusdt pick up from
talking with some blind people, reading books, watching movies andTV
shows, etc. It doesn't just rub off of them and onto yourself. It's an
experience that until you go through it yourself you can't claim to
understand what it's like to be blind.

Please attempt to be civil in your replies and messages.

Laz

On 8/27/20, Brian Vogel <britechguy@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 10:24 AM, Laz wrote:

it should be noted that Brian is fully sighted and does things as a
sighted person does
-
Indeed I am and do. I've never made a secret of the fact I'm fully
sighted.

That doesn't make any of the rest of your message have the slightest bit of
validity. I've been working with blind individuals for many, many years
now, and am acutely aware of "how things work." But the fact is that "how
things work" in any community often need to be changed, at least somewhat.

The obsession with only top-posting, and never including any reference
material before starting one's own content, is one of those things. I hear,
and frequently, "We/I want to be treated just like anyone else." Well, I'm
not going to back down on my earlier assertion that this particular style of
"quote response quote response" has been the norm in most email I've dealt
with since the 1980s when one cannot simply presume that the reader will
know exactly who and/or what is being replied to at the outset. It's long
past time that the complaints about this cease, period. It's done, it's
done commonly, you (any you) need to know how to deal with it. And most
sighted people would not bother with including a hyphen, as I do, because
they'd have no reason to believe it is necessary.

I do conform myself to the customs of any community in which I participate
when possible and when those customs do not interfere with effective
communication. If I had not left the tiny bit of context at the outset to
which I was replying, this message would have been much less clear. It's
that simply, so I'm not going to even try to please those that want me to
write in a manner I know to be less clear, not more so.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

*Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they rarely
fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and on.*

~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com




Norman
 

On 8/27/2020 10:11 AM, Dave wrote:
Why do Members of a list usually threaten to leave the list when someone
else says something they find objectionable?


Holding yourself Hostage just seems a bit Self Centered to me.
These people seem to have the mistaken oppinion that because of there previous contribution to the list they are entitled to more freedom themselves than they would be willing to grant others. There could also be the hope that if they threaten to leave others might be a little more forgiving to them because they wish them to stay. Unfortunately for them the type of person that usually does this isn't the type that most list members would care one way or another.


Everyone has their opinions, and I may not care for some, they still
have the right to state them.


Freedom of Speech is valuable, extremely valuable.  And to lose it, as
we are experiencing in the Western Nations will end up being a terrible
thing.


Be careful what you ask for and demand, as some day it could, and
probably will be used against you.


Amen.


Norman
 

Curious, did he actually leave?

On 8/27/2020 10:43 AM, Laz wrote:
Actually this isn't always the case; mostly people actually just leave
quietly. However in Joseph Hudson's case I believe he wanted people to
know that he has his own list where he does things his way and
announced it after attacking this list's owner. This is not the first
time he has done this.

And yes, Gene has done a marvelous jobrunning this list closely
channeling Carlos.

Stay well,

Laz

On 8/27/20, Dave <dlh007@centurylink.net> wrote:
Why do Members of a list usually threaten to leave the list when someone
else says something they find objectionable?


Holding yourself Hostage just seems a bit Self Centered to me.


I've been a list owner in years past, and a member of many lists through
the years.


If I don't care for someone's attitude, or their opinions, I rarely kick
them off the list, nor do I cry to the list owner to have them bring
correction.


I use my Delete Key, and I don't read posts with that subject line. I
once was on a list not too long ago, when I had two other members just
bringing material that was meant to be obnoxious.


I found their comments to be irritating, and so I just stopped reading
anything they posted. If I could have figured out how to do it, I would
have had my Email program just filter out all messages sent to the list
by these two people.


Instead I just Deleted them by hand.


Everyone has their opinions, and I may not care for some, they still
have the right to state them.


Freedom of Speech is valuable, extremely valuable. And to lose it, as
we are experiencing in the Western Nations will end up being a terrible
thing.


Be careful what you ask for and demand, as some day it could, and
probably will be used against you.


Grumpy Dave







Loy
 

I have been doing email for many years and top posting was almost always the
standard. I do like a part of the former message to be below the new
message. There is one person on several list I am on that never leaves a
portion of the former message and sometimes I don't know what she is
referring to.is

----- Original Message -----
From: "Monte Single" <mrsingle@sasktel.net>
To: <main@TechTalk.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2020 11:51 AM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Talking about quoting threads in the blindness
community


Hi Laz

Thanks for your post.
Apart from the many list I am subscribed to, I used email at work for
almost thirty years. I worked for a school board with 2500 employees. Top
posting was the standard email formaqt.
I estimate I have processed about 10 million emails since I started using
computers. Top posting is the standard I find on all lists I have used.
Brian get the prize for being the 1 outstannding bottom poster.

Thanks,

Monte



-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Laz
Sent: August 27, 2020 9:05 AM
To: main@techtalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] Talking about quoting threads in the blindness
community

Hmm. I post a message so that people have a fuller understanding of where
you're coming from and you point out how invalid my message is.

It's not an obsession to top post;it's what we as blind people find easier
for us. And please explain to us why the majority of blind people on every
list you join need to adopt your way of doing things instead of you adapting
to the way things are done on a blind mailing list?

You have to walk the walk of being blind before you actually understand what
it's like; it's not something you jusdt pick up from talking with some blind
people, reading books, watching movies andTV shows, etc. It doesn't just rub
off of them and onto yourself. It's an experience that until you go through
it yourself you can't claim to understand what it's like to be blind.

Please attempt to be civil in your replies and messages.

Laz

On 8/27/20, Brian Vogel <britechguy@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 10:24 AM, Laz wrote:


it should be noted that Brian is fully sighted and does things as a
sighted person does
-
Indeed I am and do. I've never made a secret of the fact I'm fully
sighted.

That doesn't make any of the rest of your message have the slightest
bit of validity. I've been working with blind individuals for many,
many years now, and am acutely aware of "how things work." But the
fact is that "how things work" in any community often need to be changed,
at least somewhat.

The obsession with only top-posting, and never including any reference
material before starting one's own content, is one of those things. I
hear, and frequently, "We/I want to be treated just like anyone else."
Well, I'm not going to back down on my earlier assertion that this
particular style of "quote response quote response" has been the norm
in most email I've dealt with since the 1980s when one cannot simply
presume that the reader will know exactly who and/or what is being replied
to at the outset. It's long
past time that the complaints about this cease, period. It's done, it's
done commonly, you (any you) need to know how to deal with it. And
most sighted people would not bother with including a hyphen, as I do,
because they'd have no reason to believe it is necessary.

I do conform myself to the customs of any community in which I
participate when possible and when those customs do not interfere with
effective communication. If I had not left the tiny bit of context at
the outset to which I was replying, this message would have been much
less clear. It's that simply, so I'm not going to even try to please
those that want me to write in a manner I know to be less clear, not more
so.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

*Always remember that computers are just glorified light bulbs - they
rarely fail in continuous use and usually go pop when turned off and
on.*

~ Technician with the username Computer Bloke, on Technibble.com




--
Affordably priced Accessible Talking MP3 Player/book Reader, Victor Reader
Stream & Trek, blindshell Classic phone, Bluetooth devices, and accessories
http://www.talkingmp3players.com/
Email: laz@talkingmp3players.com
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Personal Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/laz.mesa
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