windows 10 with jaws


Marvin Hunkin
 

h. if you want to e-mail me and tell me what problems or issues. Been using windows 10 with jaws for about 7 years. A power user. So if I can help. Did you try googling if windows 10 utube. Did you try the freedom scientific training and then searching for windows 10.

Or what about the fs reader training about windows. That is for windows 10.

If you need help.

Happy to help.

Ps: don’t know of any programs which will have a shell like windows 7.

Just learn to use windows 10.

Marvin.


joanne
 

Marvin and all, thanks for your input and we will definitely be in touch with those who let me know they're available to help. When I get windows 10 it's a relief to know I can email my specific concerns to someone who's used it.
 
I think the main problem my friend is having is what I am having whenever I see a computer that has 10. He couldn't get regular list views and, like many of us, didn't comprehend ribbons so I sent him a ribbon disabler. What I wasn't aware of until now was the comprehensive info we can get from Freedom Scientific. I will certainly be making use of that and will let my friend know that help from them is also available.
 
I realize there have been disagreements in the group about people's comfort level and wanting to stick with certain things that they're used to from other programs. That's why there are some work-arounds like classic shell and other tools. I'm very glad many of you have caught on to the strange setup of 10, but some of us--at least starting out--want certain aspects to have at least some familiarity to us. So I appreciate the great help that comes, and I also hope that those who don't have trouble adjusting to 10 might try to understand that some are in a different place and need some extra help and ideas as we learn this operating system.
 
Joanne

Sent: Friday, July 30, 2021 4:08 AM
Subject: [TechTalk] windows 10 with jaws

h. if you want to e-mail me and tell me what problems or issues. Been using windows 10 with jaws for about 7 years. A power user. So if I can help. Did you try googling if windows 10 utube. Did you try the freedom scientific training and then searching for windows 10.

Or what about the fs reader training about windows. That is for windows 10.

If you need help.

Happy to help.

Ps: don’t know of any programs which will have a shell like windows 7.

Just learn to use windows 10.

Marvin.


Gene
 

Regarding ribbons, you and your friend may not find them difficult to understand and use when you understand them and know a few commands.  Would you understand menus and dialogs with no instruction?  .  I would not disable them until you find out what and if you lose access to features you might want.
 
I created a ribbons tutorial which I’ll send under my signature. 
 
The reason you can’t get list views is not a Windows     10 problem.  The same settings have been in Windows to display things like files and folders in listviews since  Windows 95. 
 
I’ll let others explain how you get to the settings because I don’t have  Windows 10 and how you get to them may be different.  It has been my observation that, when people use Windows 10, if they use standard programs, they have little trouble moving to Windows 10.  Others will have to comment more on that because my observations are based on two friends who have some difficulty adapting to new interfaces, so I conclude that there isn’t much new you have to know if you use standard applications.  That doesn’t mean there isn’t anything you may wish to know but I don’t think there is much you have to know.  If you know, Windows, though each version of Windows has differences, you know the basics of Windows.
 
If you use Windows 10 apps, then I can’t discuss that.  And there are new settings and services in Windows 10 and there may be things you want to disable to remove clutter or make things such as the start menu search show the results you want without others, but I’ll let others discuss that. 
I don’t know that you need a tutorial or if you want one, if you know something like Windows 7 well, if there is a good tutorial for those moving from Windows 7 to Windows 10, that might serve you better than a general Windows 10 tutorial that might sspend all sorts of time teaching you things you already know.
 
Gene
I'll provide a brief tutorial based on what I wrote years ago of how to work with ribbons. 
 
I've added a little to it here.
 
Ribbons are ribbons wherever you find them.  This tutorial teaches you how to move through them and see or skip what you want.  certain ways of movement may cause you to miss things and not have any idea you are.  
 
First, I'll discuss a structure found in later versions of Windows that you need to know about-- the split button. 
One thing you will see as you look around ribbons and in other places in Windows are split buttons. A split button often allows you to see more options than just the default action.  Let's take an example. 
Let's say you come across a split button that says shut down Windows.  If you press enter on that button, Windows will shut down.  That is the default action.  Split buttons often show more options if you either right arrow while on the button or down arrow.  As an example, if you are on the shut down split button, you can right arrow and a list of options will open.  the items in the list include sleep, hibernate, restart, and others.  You up or down arrow through the list or use the short cut commands you hear announced as you move through the list.  the letter shortcuts often take actions without pressing enter so be careful when using them, just as you are in menus. 
 
So, let's review.  You find a split button that says shut down.  If you press enter, the computer will shut down. If you right arrow, other options may be displayed.  Or if you down arrow, other options may be displayed.  A split button won't work with both methods.  One method, either right arrowing or down arrowing will do so if it can be done with the button.  Try both methods if you don't know which one might work.  If you are on a tool bar which extends across the screen from left to right, down arrowing will open additional options.  If the strucgture moves up and down on the screen, right arrowing will open more options.  That's why if one doesn't work, try the other.  If you open the options a split button offers and don't want to work with them, arrow in the opposite direction to move out of them.  For example, if you right arrowed to open more options, left arrow. 
Some split buttons don't do anything when you right arrow or down arrow.  In that case, open them with alt down arrow.  Then tab through the additional options.  I've almost never worked in this way with split buttons but if you want to close a split button, try alt up arrow if you've used alt down arrow to open it.
 
Now, to ribbons themselves.
 
Regarding ribbons, much of the complaining about them is not warranted if you understand how they work and how to use short cut commands effectively and efficiently.  and I would strongly recommend against using the JAWS virtual menus, no matter what the JAWS training material says about ribbons being difficult to use.  the training material is just plain wrong and using virtual menus, you will be unnecessarily dependent on one screen-reader.  There are other disadvantages to using them which I won't go into here.  I will say regarding the dependence on one screen-reader iswsue that tutorials for programs that use ribbons done for blind people generally don't use the JAWS virtual ribbons and you will be greatly limiting yourself in learning such programs with tutorials if you use the JAWS virtual ribbons.  The JAWS virtual ribbons are off by default so you needn't do anything if you haven't turned them on. 
 
Try looking at ribbons and doing what is described below in wordpad.  Everyone with Windows 7 and higher has the ribbon version of Wordpad on their machine. 
 
The essence of working with ribbons is this:
Press alt to move to the upper ribbon.
You will probably be on an item that says home tab. Items on the upper ribbon are announced as tabs such as home tab, view tab, etc. 
To see what ribbons are available, right or left arrow repeatedly to move through the ribbons.  Move in one
direction to move through all of them, just as you would to move through all the menus.
 
For this demonstration, just so we are all doing the same thing, move with the right arrow. When you get back to where you started, you can keep right arrowing to move through the items again, if you wish.  You can move through all the items as many times as you want. Or you can move with the left arrow whenever you want to move in the opposite direction.  
 
Stop on view.  Then start tabbing.  You will move through all items in what is called the lower ribbon that are in the view ribbon. 
 
In other words you tab to see the items in a ribbon once you move to it.  Tab moves you forward through the items, shift tab moves you backword.
So tab and shift tab are used instead of up and down arrow. 
 
Many items in the lower ribbon are buttons.  Use either the space bar or enter to activate the button. You may find a button that opens a menu and if you press enter or the space bar, you will then be in a menu.
 
Each time you move to an item, you will hear the short cut command to work with that item. 
But JAWS has a bug and you often won't.  To hear the short cut, use the command JAWS key tab.  If you are using the default JAWS key, it is either insert.
 
Try tabbing to an item in a Wordpad ribbon and using the command insert tab.  You will hear some extraneous information.  The last thing you will hear is the short cut sequence.  You can repeat the information by repeating the command as often as you want.
 
Let's look at an item which is usually called the application menu.  Return to the main program window in wordpad by closing the ribbons.  You can either press escape repeatedly, if necessary, or you can press alt once.  Now, open the ribbons again with alt. 
Start right arrowing until you get to the application menu.
You will hear application menu and then something like button drop down grid.  Never mind drop down grid.  It's a description you don't have to worry about.  The important things are that you are on a button and at the application menu.  Press enter or the space bar to activate the button.  Activating the button opens the menu.  Start down arrowing. you will hear the item you are on and the short cut information to open or cause that item to take an action.  This iss the same behavior as in any standard menu. 
 
I told you one of the long ways to open the menu.  The short cut way is alt f.  When you open the menu and move through it, you will hear all the letters announced.  for example, if you down arrow to save as, you will hear alt f a.  that means that, when you are in the main program window, you open the menu  with alt f, then type a.  Alt f opens the menu and a then opens save as.  In other words, alt f was chosen as the short cut way to open the single menu in ribbon programs because it allowed the preservation of commands people have used for decades, such as alt f, a, for save as. 
 
Ribbon programs have one menu and you should look through it.  Many important and common commands and interfaces such as options may be there.  By options, I mean the kind of options interface you used to find in the tools menu.
 
Now the we have seen the menu, let's look at the ribbons structure some more.
To review, and add more information, as you have seen, you can move to the ribbon interface with alt.  Then right and left arrow, just as you would move from menu to menu. 
You can also move to a ribbon using alt and a letter.  So, alt h takes you to the home ribbon.  Alt v takes you to the view ribbon, etc.  Once you are on the ribbon you want to work with, tab to move forward through the items in a ribbon.  Shift tab to move back through the items.  So tab and shift tab are used instead of up and down arrow.
Ribbons are divided into categories which you will hear announced as you tab.  for example, in an e-mail program, a ribbon may have a category named respond.  You may hear this announced as respond tool bar.  As you tab, you will hear commands such as reply and forward in the respond category.  When you hear a category announced, don't tab until you hear everything spoken.  You will miss the first command in the category if you do.  I'm talking about working with an unfamiliar ribbon. 
there are often many more commands and items in a ribbon than in a menu.  So memorize command sequences for items you know you will use regularly. 
As I said, there are different categories in ribbons to help organize items.  You can quickly jump from category to category in a ribbon to help you see if there is a category you want to look through. 
Move to a ribbon in Wordpad.  For example, alt h for hhome or alt v for view.
Then repeatedly issue the command control right arrow to move forward from category to category and control left arrow to move back.  When you get to a category you want to hear the items in, start tabbing.  Of course, you can shift tab to move back. 
 
You can switch between moving by groups and individual items as often as you want.  You can move to a group, look through the items, then continue to move by group, switching to individual items again when you find a group you want to move through by individual items. 
Open a ribbon in Wordpad and tab through it to see how it is organized by moving through it. 
Then use control right arrow to move by category and tab to see what is in a category. 
 
Commands such as control o, control n, control s, control r, etc. are mostly retained in programs
that use ribbons, though you won't hear them announced. If you don't already know them, you'll have to find them in ways such as by looking at a list of keyboard commands for the program.  Such lists are often available in the help for the program. If you already know the commands from having used an older version of the program, most or perhaps even all of the commands you know will work.  


joanne
 

Gene, thank you for the tutorial and your feedback. I know that to me the list views are important, and one time when I tried upgrading to 10 I honestly couldn't figure out where I was. It looked so different and I truly was lost.
 
I feel this way with emails like Outlook and Thunderbird. I really want to learn Thunderbird, but am still using Windows Live Mail older version because it's so straightforward and had a list view like Outlook Express. Thunderbird's interface is confusing because I can't find list views where you can scroll through messages. It seems to put me in a place that isn't the in box and it may be a ribbon issue. So the tutorial may help both of us understand something we haven't been able to grasp yet.
 
 

From: Gene
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2021 8:18 AM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] windows 10 with jaws

Regarding ribbons, you and your friend may not find them difficult to understand and use when you understand them and know a few commands.  Would you understand menus and dialogs with no instruction?  .  I would not disable them until you find out what and if you lose access to features you might want.
 
I created a ribbons tutorial which I’ll send under my signature. 
 
The reason you can’t get list views is not a Windows     10 problem.  The same settings have been in Windows to display things like files and folders in listviews since  Windows 95. 
 
I’ll let others explain how you get to the settings because I don’t have  Windows 10 and how you get to them may be different.  It has been my observation that, when people use Windows 10, if they use standard programs, they have little trouble moving to Windows 10.  Others will have to comment more on that because my observations are based on two friends who have some difficulty adapting to new interfaces, so I conclude that there isn’t much new you have to know if you use standard applications.  That doesn’t mean there isn’t anything you may wish to know but I don’t think there is much you have to know.  If you know, Windows, though each version of Windows has differences, you know the basics of Windows.
 
If you use Windows 10 apps, then I can’t discuss that.  And there are new settings and services in Windows 10 and there may be things you want to disable to remove clutter or make things such as the start menu search show the results you want without others, but I’ll let others discuss that. 
I don’t know that you need a tutorial or if you want one, if you know something like Windows 7 well, if there is a good tutorial for those moving from Windows 7 to Windows 10, that might serve you better than a general Windows 10 tutorial that might sspend all sorts of time teaching you things you already know.
 
Gene
I'll provide a brief tutorial based on what I wrote years ago of how to work with ribbons. 
 
I've added a little to it here.
 
Ribbons are ribbons wherever you find them.  This tutorial teaches you how to move through them and see or skip what you want.  certain ways of movement may cause you to miss things and not have any idea you are.  
 
First, I'll discuss a structure found in later versions of Windows that you need to know about-- the split button. 
One thing you will see as you look around ribbons and in other places in Windows are split buttons. A split button often allows you to see more options than just the default action.  Let's take an example. 
Let's say you come across a split button that says shut down Windows.  If you press enter on that button, Windows will shut down.  That is the default action.  Split buttons often show more options if you either right arrow while on the button or down arrow.  As an example, if you are on the shut down split button, you can right arrow and a list of options will open.  the items in the list include sleep, hibernate, restart, and others.  You up or down arrow through the list or use the short cut commands you hear announced as you move through the list.  the letter shortcuts often take actions without pressing enter so be careful when using them, just as you are in menus. 
 
So, let's review.  You find a split button that says shut down.  If you press enter, the computer will shut down. If you right arrow, other options may be displayed.  Or if you down arrow, other options may be displayed.  A split button won't work with both methods.  One method, either right arrowing or down arrowing will do so if it can be done with the button.  Try both methods if you don't know which one might work.  If you are on a tool bar which extends across the screen from left to right, down arrowing will open additional options.  If the strucgture moves up and down on the screen, right arrowing will open more options.  That's why if one doesn't work, try the other.  If you open the options a split button offers and don't want to work with them, arrow in the opposite direction to move out of them.  For example, if you right arrowed to open more options, left arrow. 
Some split buttons don't do anything when you right arrow or down arrow.  In that case, open them with alt down arrow.  Then tab through the additional options.  I've almost never worked in this way with split buttons but if you want to close a split button, try alt up arrow if you've used alt down arrow to open it.
 
Now, to ribbons themselves.
 
Regarding ribbons, much of the complaining about them is not warranted if you understand how they work and how to use short cut commands effectively and efficiently.  and I would strongly recommend against using the JAWS virtual menus, no matter what the JAWS training material says about ribbons being difficult to use.  the training material is just plain wrong and using virtual menus, you will be unnecessarily dependent on one screen-reader.  There are other disadvantages to using them which I won't go into here.  I will say regarding the dependence on one screen-reader iswsue that tutorials for programs that use ribbons done for blind people generally don't use the JAWS virtual ribbons and you will be greatly limiting yourself in learning such programs with tutorials if you use the JAWS virtual ribbons.  The JAWS virtual ribbons are off by default so you needn't do anything if you haven't turned them on. 
 
Try looking at ribbons and doing what is described below in wordpad.  Everyone with Windows 7 and higher has the ribbon version of Wordpad on their machine. 
 
The essence of working with ribbons is this:
Press alt to move to the upper ribbon.
You will probably be on an item that says home tab. Items on the upper ribbon are announced as tabs such as home tab, view tab, etc. 
To see what ribbons are available, right or left arrow repeatedly to move through the ribbons.  Move in one
direction to move through all of them, just as you would to move through all the menus.
 
For this demonstration, just so we are all doing the same thing, move with the right arrow. When you get back to where you started, you can keep right arrowing to move through the items again, if you wish.  You can move through all the items as many times as you want. Or you can move with the left arrow whenever you want to move in the opposite direction.  
 
Stop on view.  Then start tabbing.  You will move through all items in what is called the lower ribbon that are in the view ribbon. 
 
In other words you tab to see the items in a ribbon once you move to it.  Tab moves you forward through the items, shift tab moves you backword.
So tab and shift tab are used instead of up and down arrow. 
 
Many items in the lower ribbon are buttons.  Use either the space bar or enter to activate the button. You may find a button that opens a menu and if you press enter or the space bar, you will then be in a menu.
 
Each time you move to an item, you will hear the short cut command to work with that item. 
But JAWS has a bug and you often won't.  To hear the short cut, use the command JAWS key tab.  If you are using the default JAWS key, it is either insert.
 
Try tabbing to an item in a Wordpad ribbon and using the command insert tab.  You will hear some extraneous information.  The last thing you will hear is the short cut sequence.  You can repeat the information by repeating the command as often as you want.
 
Let's look at an item which is usually called the application menu.  Return to the main program window in wordpad by closing the ribbons.  You can either press escape repeatedly, if necessary, or you can press alt once.  Now, open the ribbons again with alt. 
Start right arrowing until you get to the application menu.
You will hear application menu and then something like button drop down grid.  Never mind drop down grid.  It's a description you don't have to worry about.  The important things are that you are on a button and at the application menu.  Press enter or the space bar to activate the button.  Activating the button opens the menu.  Start down arrowing. you will hear the item you are on and the short cut information to open or cause that item to take an action.  This iss the same behavior as in any standard menu. 
 
I told you one of the long ways to open the menu.  The short cut way is alt f.  When you open the menu and move through it, you will hear all the letters announced.  for example, if you down arrow to save as, you will hear alt f a.  that means that, when you are in the main program window, you open the menu  with alt f, then type a.  Alt f opens the menu and a then opens save as.  In other words, alt f was chosen as the short cut way to open the single menu in ribbon programs because it allowed the preservation of commands people have used for decades, such as alt f, a, for save as. 
 
Ribbon programs have one menu and you should look through it.  Many important and common commands and interfaces such as options may be there.  By options, I mean the kind of options interface you used to find in the tools menu.
 
Now the we have seen the menu, let's look at the ribbons structure some more.
To review, and add more information, as you have seen, you can move to the ribbon interface with alt.  Then right and left arrow, just as you would move from menu to menu. 
You can also move to a ribbon using alt and a letter.  So, alt h takes you to the home ribbon.  Alt v takes you to the view ribbon, etc.  Once you are on the ribbon you want to work with, tab to move forward through the items in a ribbon.  Shift tab to move back through the items.  So tab and shift tab are used instead of up and down arrow.
Ribbons are divided into categories which you will hear announced as you tab.  for example, in an e-mail program, a ribbon may have a category named respond.  You may hear this announced as respond tool bar.  As you tab, you will hear commands such as reply and forward in the respond category.  When you hear a category announced, don't tab until you hear everything spoken.  You will miss the first command in the category if you do.  I'm talking about working with an unfamiliar ribbon. 
there are often many more commands and items in a ribbon than in a menu.  So memorize command sequences for items you know you will use regularly. 
As I said, there are different categories in ribbons to help organize items.  You can quickly jump from category to category in a ribbon to help you see if there is a category you want to look through. 
Move to a ribbon in Wordpad.  For example, alt h for hhome or alt v for view.
Then repeatedly issue the command control right arrow to move forward from category to category and control left arrow to move back.  When you get to a category you want to hear the items in, start tabbing.  Of course, you can shift tab to move back. 
 
You can switch between moving by groups and individual items as often as you want.  You can move to a group, look through the items, then continue to move by group, switching to individual items again when you find a group you want to move through by individual items. 
Open a ribbon in Wordpad and tab through it to see how it is organized by moving through it. 
Then use control right arrow to move by category and tab to see what is in a category. 
 
Commands such as control o, control n, control s, control r, etc. are mostly retained in programs
that use ribbons, though you won't hear them announced. If you don't already know them, you'll have to find them in ways such as by looking at a list of keyboard commands for the program.  Such lists are often available in the help for the program. If you already know the commands from having used an older version of the program, most or perhaps even all of the commands you know will work.  


Gene
 

There are no ribbons in Thunderbird.  You may not have the same results, but I use the ribbon version of Windows Live Mail with Windows 7 because it opens messages much faster than Thunderbird does on my machine.  I don’t know if or how well the menu version works in Windows 10 so I can’t comment on whether you can continue to use it.  From the small numbers of comments I’ve seen, it appears the ribbon version works well.
 
Thunderbird has a list view of messages, just as e-mail programs do in general.  Ribbons have nothing to do with such things.  Ribbons are used instead of menus where menus would have previously been used. 
 
Where some things are may be different in ribbons but each ribbon program has one menu where some commonly used functions are.  But the program remains largely the same, unless developers make changes to a lot of other aspects of the program.
 
If you try something and have problems, it is far better to ask on list if you want to continue to evaluate and use the program than just stop using it.
 
In Thunderbird, when the program opens, you aren’t placed in the list view.  A good way to get to the list view is to use f6. Iff you [press it once, you will be in the folders treeview and I believe that is true no matter how the program is configured.  If you press it twice, you will be in the list view.
Then, use the list as usual. 
 
That’s an example of why a group like this should be consulted in such a case.
 
Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: joanne
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2021 8:04 AM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] windows 10 with jaws
 
Gene, thank you for the tutorial and your feedback. I know that to me the list views are important, and one time when I tried upgrading to 10 I honestly couldn't figure out where I was. It looked so different and I truly was lost.
 
I feel this way with emails like Outlook and Thunderbird. I really want to learn Thunderbird, but am still using Windows Live Mail older version because it's so straightforward and had a list view like Outlook Express. Thunderbird's interface is confusing because I can't find list views where you can scroll through messages. It seems to put me in a place that isn't the in box and it may be a ribbon issue. So the tutorial may help both of us understand something we haven't been able to grasp yet.
 
 

From: Gene
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2021 8:18 AM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] windows 10 with jaws
 
Regarding ribbons, you and your friend may not find them difficult to understand and use when you understand them and know a few commands.  Would you understand menus and dialogs with no instruction?  .  I would not disable them until you find out what and if you lose access to features you might want.
 
I created a ribbons tutorial which I’ll send under my signature. 
 
The reason you can’t get list views is not a Windows     10 problem.  The same settings have been in Windows to display things like files and folders in listviews since  Windows 95. 
 
I’ll let others explain how you get to the settings because I don’t have  Windows 10 and how you get to them may be different.  It has been my observation that, when people use Windows 10, if they use standard programs, they have little trouble moving to Windows 10.  Others will have to comment more on that because my observations are based on two friends who have some difficulty adapting to new interfaces, so I conclude that there isn’t much new you have to know if you use standard applications.  That doesn’t mean there isn’t anything you may wish to know but I don’t think there is much you have to know.  If you know, Windows, though each version of Windows has differences, you know the basics of Windows.
 
If you use Windows 10 apps, then I can’t discuss that.  And there are new settings and services in Windows 10 and there may be things you want to disable to remove clutter or make things such as the start menu search show the results you want without others, but I’ll let others discuss that. 
I don’t know that you need a tutorial or if you want one, if you know something like Windows 7 well, if there is a good tutorial for those moving from Windows 7 to Windows 10, that might serve you better than a general Windows 10 tutorial that might sspend all sorts of time teaching you things you already know.
 
Gene
I'll provide a brief tutorial based on what I wrote years ago of how to work with ribbons. 
 
I've added a little to it here.
 
Ribbons are ribbons wherever you find them.  This tutorial teaches you how to move through them and see or skip what you want.  certain ways of movement may cause you to miss things and not have any idea you are.  
 
First, I'll discuss a structure found in later versions of Windows that you need to know about-- the split button. 
One thing you will see as you look around ribbons and in other places in Windows are split buttons. A split button often allows you to see more options than just the default action.  Let's take an example. 
Let's say you come across a split button that says shut down Windows.  If you press enter on that button, Windows will shut down.  That is the default action.  Split buttons often show more options if you either right arrow while on the button or down arrow.  As an example, if you are on the shut down split button, you can right arrow and a list of options will open.  the items in the list include sleep, hibernate, restart, and others.  You up or down arrow through the list or use the short cut commands you hear announced as you move through the list.  the letter shortcuts often take actions without pressing enter so be careful when using them, just as you are in menus. 
 
So, let's review.  You find a split button that says shut down.  If you press enter, the computer will shut down. If you right arrow, other options may be displayed.  Or if you down arrow, other options may be displayed.  A split button won't work with both methods.  One method, either right arrowing or down arrowing will do so if it can be done with the button.  Try both methods if you don't know which one might work.  If you are on a tool bar which extends across the screen from left to right, down arrowing will open additional options.  If the strucgture moves up and down on the screen, right arrowing will open more options.  That's why if one doesn't work, try the other.  If you open the options a split button offers and don't want to work with them, arrow in the opposite direction to move out of them.  For example, if you right arrowed to open more options, left arrow. 
Some split buttons don't do anything when you right arrow or down arrow.  In that case, open them with alt down arrow.  Then tab through the additional options.  I've almost never worked in this way with split buttons but if you want to close a split button, try alt up arrow if you've used alt down arrow to open it.
 
Now, to ribbons themselves.
 
Regarding ribbons, much of the complaining about them is not warranted if you understand how they work and how to use short cut commands effectively and efficiently.  and I would strongly recommend against using the JAWS virtual menus, no matter what the JAWS training material says about ribbons being difficult to use.  the training material is just plain wrong and using virtual menus, you will be unnecessarily dependent on one screen-reader.  There are other disadvantages to using them which I won't go into here.  I will say regarding the dependence on one screen-reader iswsue that tutorials for programs that use ribbons done for blind people generally don't use the JAWS virtual ribbons and you will be greatly limiting yourself in learning such programs with tutorials if you use the JAWS virtual ribbons.  The JAWS virtual ribbons are off by default so you needn't do anything if you haven't turned them on. 
 
Try looking at ribbons and doing what is described below in wordpad.  Everyone with Windows 7 and higher has the ribbon version of Wordpad on their machine. 
 
The essence of working with ribbons is this:
Press alt to move to the upper ribbon.
You will probably be on an item that says home tab. Items on the upper ribbon are announced as tabs such as home tab, view tab, etc. 
To see what ribbons are available, right or left arrow repeatedly to move through the ribbons.  Move in one
direction to move through all of them, just as you would to move through all the menus.
 
For this demonstration, just so we are all doing the same thing, move with the right arrow. When you get back to where you started, you can keep right arrowing to move through the items again, if you wish.  You can move through all the items as many times as you want. Or you can move with the left arrow whenever you want to move in the opposite direction.  
 
Stop on view.  Then start tabbing.  You will move through all items in what is called the lower ribbon that are in the view ribbon. 
 
In other words you tab to see the items in a ribbon once you move to it.  Tab moves you forward through the items, shift tab moves you backword.
So tab and shift tab are used instead of up and down arrow. 
 
Many items in the lower ribbon are buttons.  Use either the space bar or enter to activate the button. You may find a button that opens a menu and if you press enter or the space bar, you will then be in a menu.
 
Each time you move to an item, you will hear the short cut command to work with that item. 
But JAWS has a bug and you often won't.  To hear the short cut, use the command JAWS key tab.  If you are using the default JAWS key, it is either insert.
 
Try tabbing to an item in a Wordpad ribbon and using the command insert tab.  You will hear some extraneous information.  The last thing you will hear is the short cut sequence.  You can repeat the information by repeating the command as often as you want.
 
Let's look at an item which is usually called the application menu.  Return to the main program window in wordpad by closing the ribbons.  You can either press escape repeatedly, if necessary, or you can press alt once.  Now, open the ribbons again with alt. 
Start right arrowing until you get to the application menu.
You will hear application menu and then something like button drop down grid.  Never mind drop down grid.  It's a description you don't have to worry about.  The important things are that you are on a button and at the application menu.  Press enter or the space bar to activate the button.  Activating the button opens the menu.  Start down arrowing. you will hear the item you are on and the short cut information to open or cause that item to take an action.  This iss the same behavior as in any standard menu. 
 
I told you one of the long ways to open the menu.  The short cut way is alt f.  When you open the menu and move through it, you will hear all the letters announced.  for example, if you down arrow to save as, you will hear alt f a.  that means that, when you are in the main program window, you open the menu  with alt f, then type a.  Alt f opens the menu and a then opens save as.  In other words, alt f was chosen as the short cut way to open the single menu in ribbon programs because it allowed the preservation of commands people have used for decades, such as alt f, a, for save as. 
 
Ribbon programs have one menu and you should look through it.  Many important and common commands and interfaces such as options may be there.  By options, I mean the kind of options interface you used to find in the tools menu.
 
Now the we have seen the menu, let's look at the ribbons structure some more.
To review, and add more information, as you have seen, you can move to the ribbon interface with alt.  Then right and left arrow, just as you would move from menu to menu. 
You can also move to a ribbon using alt and a letter.  So, alt h takes you to the home ribbon.  Alt v takes you to the view ribbon, etc.  Once you are on the ribbon you want to work with, tab to move forward through the items in a ribbon.  Shift tab to move back through the items.  So tab and shift tab are used instead of up and down arrow.
Ribbons are divided into categories which you will hear announced as you tab.  for example, in an e-mail program, a ribbon may have a category named respond.  You may hear this announced as respond tool bar.  As you tab, you will hear commands such as reply and forward in the respond category.  When you hear a category announced, don't tab until you hear everything spoken.  You will miss the first command in the category if you do.  I'm talking about working with an unfamiliar ribbon. 
there are often many more commands and items in a ribbon than in a menu.  So memorize command sequences for items you know you will use regularly. 
As I said, there are different categories in ribbons to help organize items.  You can quickly jump from category to category in a ribbon to help you see if there is a category you want to look through. 
Move to a ribbon in Wordpad.  For example, alt h for hhome or alt v for view.
Then repeatedly issue the command control right arrow to move forward from category to category and control left arrow to move back.  When you get to a category you want to hear the items in, start tabbing.  Of course, you can shift tab to move back. 
 
You can switch between moving by groups and individual items as often as you want.  You can move to a group, look through the items, then continue to move by group, switching to individual items again when you find a group you want to move through by individual items. 
Open a ribbon in Wordpad and tab through it to see how it is organized by moving through it. 
Then use control right arrow to move by category and tab to see what is in a category. 
 
Commands such as control o, control n, control s, control r, etc. are mostly retained in programs
that use ribbons, though you won't hear them announced. If you don't already know them, you'll have to find them in ways such as by looking at a list of keyboard commands for the program.  Such lists are often available in the help for the program. If you already know the commands from having used an older version of the program, most or perhaps even all of the commands you know will work.  


Ann Parsons
 

Hi all,

Here is info that may help.

https://winaero.com/open-folder-options-windows-10/

Ann P.

--
Ann K. Parsons
Portal Tutoring
EMAIL: akp@sero.email
Author of The Demmies: http://www.dldbooks.com/annparsons/
Portal Tutoring web site: http://www.portaltutoring.info
Skype: Putertutor

"All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost."


joanne
 

Oh okay, I thought Thunderbird didn't have a good way to find the list so will try the f6 key. Very helpful.
 

From: Gene
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2021 9:19 AM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] windows 10 with jaws

There are no ribbons in Thunderbird.  You may not have the same results, but I use the ribbon version of Windows Live Mail with Windows 7 because it opens messages much faster than Thunderbird does on my machine.  I don’t know if or how well the menu version works in Windows 10 so I can’t comment on whether you can continue to use it.  From the small numbers of comments I’ve seen, it appears the ribbon version works well.
 
Thunderbird has a list view of messages, just as e-mail programs do in general.  Ribbons have nothing to do with such things.  Ribbons are used instead of menus where menus would have previously been used. 
 
Where some things are may be different in ribbons but each ribbon program has one menu where some commonly used functions are.  But the program remains largely the same, unless developers make changes to a lot of other aspects of the program.
 
If you try something and have problems, it is far better to ask on list if you want to continue to evaluate and use the program than just stop using it.
 
In Thunderbird, when the program opens, you aren’t placed in the list view.  A good way to get to the list view is to use f6. Iff you [press it once, you will be in the folders treeview and I believe that is true no matter how the program is configured.  If you press it twice, you will be in the list view.
Then, use the list as usual. 
 
That’s an example of why a group like this should be consulted in such a case.
 
Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: joanne
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2021 8:04 AM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] windows 10 with jaws
 
Gene, thank you for the tutorial and your feedback. I know that to me the list views are important, and one time when I tried upgrading to 10 I honestly couldn't figure out where I was. It looked so different and I truly was lost.
 
I feel this way with emails like Outlook and Thunderbird. I really want to learn Thunderbird, but am still using Windows Live Mail older version because it's so straightforward and had a list view like Outlook Express. Thunderbird's interface is confusing because I can't find list views where you can scroll through messages. It seems to put me in a place that isn't the in box and it may be a ribbon issue. So the tutorial may help both of us understand something we haven't been able to grasp yet.
 
 

From: Gene
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2021 8:18 AM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] windows 10 with jaws
 
Regarding ribbons, you and your friend may not find them difficult to understand and use when you understand them and know a few commands.  Would you understand menus and dialogs with no instruction?  .  I would not disable them until you find out what and if you lose access to features you might want.
 
I created a ribbons tutorial which I’ll send under my signature. 
 
The reason you can’t get list views is not a Windows     10 problem.  The same settings have been in Windows to display things like files and folders in listviews since  Windows 95. 
 
I’ll let others explain how you get to the settings because I don’t have  Windows 10 and how you get to them may be different.  It has been my observation that, when people use Windows 10, if they use standard programs, they have little trouble moving to Windows 10.  Others will have to comment more on that because my observations are based on two friends who have some difficulty adapting to new interfaces, so I conclude that there isn’t much new you have to know if you use standard applications.  That doesn’t mean there isn’t anything you may wish to know but I don’t think there is much you have to know.  If you know, Windows, though each version of Windows has differences, you know the basics of Windows.
 
If you use Windows 10 apps, then I can’t discuss that.  And there are new settings and services in Windows 10 and there may be things you want to disable to remove clutter or make things such as the start menu search show the results you want without others, but I’ll let others discuss that. 
I don’t know that you need a tutorial or if you want one, if you know something like Windows 7 well, if there is a good tutorial for those moving from Windows 7 to Windows 10, that might serve you better than a general Windows 10 tutorial that might sspend all sorts of time teaching you things you already know.
 
Gene
I'll provide a brief tutorial based on what I wrote years ago of how to work with ribbons. 
 
I've added a little to it here.
 
Ribbons are ribbons wherever you find them.  This tutorial teaches you how to move through them and see or skip what you want.  certain ways of movement may cause you to miss things and not have any idea you are.  
 
First, I'll discuss a structure found in later versions of Windows that you need to know about-- the split button. 
One thing you will see as you look around ribbons and in other places in Windows are split buttons. A split button often allows you to see more options than just the default action.  Let's take an example. 
Let's say you come across a split button that says shut down Windows.  If you press enter on that button, Windows will shut down.  That is the default action.  Split buttons often show more options if you either right arrow while on the button or down arrow.  As an example, if you are on the shut down split button, you can right arrow and a list of options will open.  the items in the list include sleep, hibernate, restart, and others.  You up or down arrow through the list or use the short cut commands you hear announced as you move through the list.  the letter shortcuts often take actions without pressing enter so be careful when using them, just as you are in menus. 
 
So, let's review.  You find a split button that says shut down.  If you press enter, the computer will shut down. If you right arrow, other options may be displayed.  Or if you down arrow, other options may be displayed.  A split button won't work with both methods.  One method, either right arrowing or down arrowing will do so if it can be done with the button.  Try both methods if you don't know which one might work.  If you are on a tool bar which extends across the screen from left to right, down arrowing will open additional options.  If the strucgture moves up and down on the screen, right arrowing will open more options.  That's why if one doesn't work, try the other.  If you open the options a split button offers and don't want to work with them, arrow in the opposite direction to move out of them.  For example, if you right arrowed to open more options, left arrow. 
Some split buttons don't do anything when you right arrow or down arrow.  In that case, open them with alt down arrow.  Then tab through the additional options.  I've almost never worked in this way with split buttons but if you want to close a split button, try alt up arrow if you've used alt down arrow to open it.
 
Now, to ribbons themselves.
 
Regarding ribbons, much of the complaining about them is not warranted if you understand how they work and how to use short cut commands effectively and efficiently.  and I would strongly recommend against using the JAWS virtual menus, no matter what the JAWS training material says about ribbons being difficult to use.  the training material is just plain wrong and using virtual menus, you will be unnecessarily dependent on one screen-reader.  There are other disadvantages to using them which I won't go into here.  I will say regarding the dependence on one screen-reader iswsue that tutorials for programs that use ribbons done for blind people generally don't use the JAWS virtual ribbons and you will be greatly limiting yourself in learning such programs with tutorials if you use the JAWS virtual ribbons.  The JAWS virtual ribbons are off by default so you needn't do anything if you haven't turned them on. 
 
Try looking at ribbons and doing what is described below in wordpad.  Everyone with Windows 7 and higher has the ribbon version of Wordpad on their machine. 
 
The essence of working with ribbons is this:
Press alt to move to the upper ribbon.
You will probably be on an item that says home tab. Items on the upper ribbon are announced as tabs such as home tab, view tab, etc. 
To see what ribbons are available, right or left arrow repeatedly to move through the ribbons.  Move in one
direction to move through all of them, just as you would to move through all the menus.
 
For this demonstration, just so we are all doing the same thing, move with the right arrow. When you get back to where you started, you can keep right arrowing to move through the items again, if you wish.  You can move through all the items as many times as you want. Or you can move with the left arrow whenever you want to move in the opposite direction.  
 
Stop on view.  Then start tabbing.  You will move through all items in what is called the lower ribbon that are in the view ribbon. 
 
In other words you tab to see the items in a ribbon once you move to it.  Tab moves you forward through the items, shift tab moves you backword.
So tab and shift tab are used instead of up and down arrow. 
 
Many items in the lower ribbon are buttons.  Use either the space bar or enter to activate the button. You may find a button that opens a menu and if you press enter or the space bar, you will then be in a menu.
 
Each time you move to an item, you will hear the short cut command to work with that item. 
But JAWS has a bug and you often won't.  To hear the short cut, use the command JAWS key tab.  If you are using the default JAWS key, it is either insert.
 
Try tabbing to an item in a Wordpad ribbon and using the command insert tab.  You will hear some extraneous information.  The last thing you will hear is the short cut sequence.  You can repeat the information by repeating the command as often as you want.
 
Let's look at an item which is usually called the application menu.  Return to the main program window in wordpad by closing the ribbons.  You can either press escape repeatedly, if necessary, or you can press alt once.  Now, open the ribbons again with alt. 
Start right arrowing until you get to the application menu.
You will hear application menu and then something like button drop down grid.  Never mind drop down grid.  It's a description you don't have to worry about.  The important things are that you are on a button and at the application menu.  Press enter or the space bar to activate the button.  Activating the button opens the menu.  Start down arrowing. you will hear the item you are on and the short cut information to open or cause that item to take an action.  This iss the same behavior as in any standard menu. 
 
I told you one of the long ways to open the menu.  The short cut way is alt f.  When you open the menu and move through it, you will hear all the letters announced.  for example, if you down arrow to save as, you will hear alt f a.  that means that, when you are in the main program window, you open the menu  with alt f, then type a.  Alt f opens the menu and a then opens save as.  In other words, alt f was chosen as the short cut way to open the single menu in ribbon programs because it allowed the preservation of commands people have used for decades, such as alt f, a, for save as. 
 
Ribbon programs have one menu and you should look through it.  Many important and common commands and interfaces such as options may be there.  By options, I mean the kind of options interface you used to find in the tools menu.
 
Now the we have seen the menu, let's look at the ribbons structure some more.
To review, and add more information, as you have seen, you can move to the ribbon interface with alt.  Then right and left arrow, just as you would move from menu to menu. 
You can also move to a ribbon using alt and a letter.  So, alt h takes you to the home ribbon.  Alt v takes you to the view ribbon, etc.  Once you are on the ribbon you want to work with, tab to move forward through the items in a ribbon.  Shift tab to move back through the items.  So tab and shift tab are used instead of up and down arrow.
Ribbons are divided into categories which you will hear announced as you tab.  for example, in an e-mail program, a ribbon may have a category named respond.  You may hear this announced as respond tool bar.  As you tab, you will hear commands such as reply and forward in the respond category.  When you hear a category announced, don't tab until you hear everything spoken.  You will miss the first command in the category if you do.  I'm talking about working with an unfamiliar ribbon. 
there are often many more commands and items in a ribbon than in a menu.  So memorize command sequences for items you know you will use regularly. 
As I said, there are different categories in ribbons to help organize items.  You can quickly jump from category to category in a ribbon to help you see if there is a category you want to look through. 
Move to a ribbon in Wordpad.  For example, alt h for hhome or alt v for view.
Then repeatedly issue the command control right arrow to move forward from category to category and control left arrow to move back.  When you get to a category you want to hear the items in, start tabbing.  Of course, you can shift tab to move back. 
 
You can switch between moving by groups and individual items as often as you want.  You can move to a group, look through the items, then continue to move by group, switching to individual items again when you find a group you want to move through by individual items. 
Open a ribbon in Wordpad and tab through it to see how it is organized by moving through it. 
Then use control right arrow to move by category and tab to see what is in a category. 
 
Commands such as control o, control n, control s, control r, etc. are mostly retained in programs
that use ribbons, though you won't hear them announced. If you don't already know them, you'll have to find them in ways such as by looking at a list of keyboard commands for the program.  Such lists are often available in the help for the program. If you already know the commands from having used an older version of the program, most or perhaps even all of the commands you know will work.  


John Holcomb II
 

Classic Shell, although that is abandon ware. But there is a new open sourced version of it that I forget what it is called.

Is it possible too that the people from stardock would have something?

John

 

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Marvin Hunkin
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2021 4:09 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: [TechTalk] windows 10 with jaws

 

h. if you want to e-mail me and tell me what problems or issues. Been using windows 10 with jaws for about 7 years. A power user. So if I can help. Did you try googling if windows 10 utube. Did you try the freedom scientific training and then searching for windows 10.

Or what about the fs reader training about windows. That is for windows 10.

If you need help.

Happy to help.

Ps: don’t know of any programs which will have a shell like windows 7.

Just learn to use windows 10.

Marvin.


John Holcomb II
 

Really there’s a ribene disabler?

What is that n and how odes it work?

Thanks,

John

 

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of joanne
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2021 7:52 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] windows 10 with jaws

 

Marvin and all, thanks for your input and we will definitely be in touch with those who let me know they're available to help. When I get windows 10 it's a relief to know I can email my specific concerns to someone who's used it.

 

I think the main problem my friend is having is what I am having whenever I see a computer that has 10. He couldn't get regular list views and, like many of us, didn't comprehend ribbons so I sent him a ribbon disabler. What I wasn't aware of until now was the comprehensive info we can get from Freedom Scientific. I will certainly be making use of that and will let my friend know that help from them is also available.

 

I realize there have been disagreements in the group about people's comfort level and wanting to stick with certain things that they're used to from other programs. That's why there are some work-arounds like classic shell and other tools. I'm very glad many of you have caught on to the strange setup of 10, but some of us--at least starting out--want certain aspects to have at least some familiarity to us. So I appreciate the great help that comes, and I also hope that those who don't have trouble adjusting to 10 might try to understand that some are in a different place and need some extra help and ideas as we learn this operating system.

 

Joanne

 

Sent: Friday, July 30, 2021 4:08 AM

Subject: [TechTalk] windows 10 with jaws

 

h. if you want to e-mail me and tell me what problems or issues. Been using windows 10 with jaws for about 7 years. A power user. So if I can help. Did you try googling if windows 10 utube. Did you try the freedom scientific training and then searching for windows 10.

Or what about the fs reader training about windows. That is for windows 10.

If you need help.

Happy to help.

Ps: don’t know of any programs which will have a shell like windows 7.

Just learn to use windows 10.

Marvin.


Ann Parsons
 

Hi all,

It's amazing to me that a word, one simple word can cause such angst, such fear, such unreasoning terror. Ribbons are menus, pure and simple. They may cause some difficulty for the sighted because they are horizontal and not vertical, but what is so terrifying about a menu? You've been working with menus since you started using a computer. Why aren't you terrified by menus? They're just the same as ribbons! Ribbons are horizontal menus, that's all. They have more data in them, but they're only menus, just menus. ""Beware the Jabberwock, The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
The frumious Bandersnatch!”
― Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass and What Alice Found There

<smiling>
Ann P.




Original message:

Really there’s a ribene disabler?
What is that n and how odes it work?
Thanks,
John
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of joanne
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2021 7:52 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] windows 10 with jaws
Marvin and all, thanks for your input and we will definitely be in touch with those who let me know they're available to help. When I get windows 10 it's a relief to know I can email my specific concerns to someone who's used it.
I think the main problem my friend is having is what I am having whenever I see a computer that has 10. He couldn't get regular list views and, like many of us, didn't comprehend ribbons so I sent him a ribbon disabler. What I wasn't aware of until now was the comprehensive info we can get from Freedom Scientific. I will certainly be making use of that and will let my friend know that help from them is also available.
I realize there have been disagreements in the group about people's comfort level and wanting to stick with certain things that they're used to from other programs. That's why there are some work-arounds like classic shell and other tools. I'm very glad many of you have caught on to the strange setup of 10, but some of us--at least starting out--want certain aspects to have at least some familiarity to us. So I appreciate the great help that comes, and I also hope that those who don't have trouble adjusting to 10 might try to understand that some are in a different place and need some extra help and ideas as we learn this operating system.
Joanne
From: Marvin Hunkin <mailto:startrektech@techie.com>
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2021 4:08 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io>
Subject: [TechTalk] windows 10 with jaws
h. if you want to e-mail me and tell me what problems or issues. Been using windows 10 with jaws for about 7 years. A power user. So if I can help. Did you try googling if windows 10 utube. Did you try the freedom scientific training and then searching for windows 10.
Or what about the fs reader training about windows. That is for windows 10.
If you need help.
Happy to help.
Ps: don’t know of any programs which will have a shell like windows 7.
Just learn to use windows 10.
Marvin.
--
Ann K. Parsons
Portal Tutoring
EMAIL: akp@sero.email
Author of The Demmies: http://www.dldbooks.com/annparsons/
Portal Tutoring web site: http://www.portaltutoring.info
Skype: Putertutor

"All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost."


Gene
 

I think one reason is that ribbons may not be clear in terms of how they are organized and how to work with them if you just come across them and have no good instruction.  That probably happened to a lot of people who had none or had some help from people who didn't understand them properly either.


The word from people who have such experiences spreads from them throughout the blind computer using community.


If there had been some sort of utopian way to send good help in the form of explanations and demonstrations to all those in the blind Windows computer using community as soon as ribbons were released, a lot of the fear surrounding ribbons might have been preempted.


Gene

On 7/30/2021 3:28 PM, Ann Parsons wrote:
Hi all,

It's amazing to me that a word, one simple word can cause such angst, such fear, such unreasoning terror.  Ribbons are menus, pure and simple.  They may cause some difficulty for the sighted because they are horizontal and not vertical, but what is so terrifying about a menu?  You've been working with menus since you started using a computer.  Why aren't you terrified by menus? They're just the same as ribbons!  Ribbons are horizontal menus, that's all.  They have more data in them, but they're only menus, just menus.  ""Beware the Jabberwock, The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
The frumious Bandersnatch!”
― Lewis Carroll,  Through the Looking-Glass and What Alice Found There

<smiling>
Ann P.




Original message:

Really there’s a ribene disabler?
What is that n and how odes it work?
Thanks,
John
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of joanne
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2021 7:52 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] windows 10 with jaws
Marvin and all, thanks for your input and we will definitely be in touch with those who let me know they're available to help. When I get windows 10 it's a relief to know I can email my specific concerns to someone who's used it.
I think the main problem my friend is having is what I am having whenever I see a computer that has 10. He couldn't get regular list views and, like many of us, didn't comprehend ribbons so I sent him a ribbon disabler. What I wasn't aware of until now was the comprehensive info we can get from Freedom Scientific. I will certainly be making use of that and will let my friend know that help from them is also available.
I realize there have been disagreements in the group about people's comfort level and wanting to stick with certain things that they're used to from other programs. That's why there are some work-arounds like classic shell and other tools. I'm very glad many of you have caught on to the strange setup of 10, but some of us--at least starting out--want certain aspects to have at least some familiarity to us. So I appreciate the great help that comes, and I also hope that those who don't have trouble adjusting to 10 might try to understand that some are in a different place and need some extra help and ideas as we learn this operating system.
Joanne
From: Marvin Hunkin <mailto:startrektech@techie.com>
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2021 4:08 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io>
Subject: [TechTalk] windows 10 with jaws
h. if you want to e-mail me and tell me what problems or issues. Been using windows 10 with jaws for about 7 years. A power user. So if I can help. Did you try googling if windows 10 utube. Did you try the freedom scientific training and then searching for windows 10.
Or what about the fs reader training about windows. That is for windows 10.
If you need help.
Happy to help.
Ps: don’t know of any programs which will have a shell like windows 7.
Just learn to use windows 10.
Marvin.


John Holcomb II
 

I have jaws set to show the jaws ribbon.
I honestly do not find ribbons as easy to navigate and would prefer too disable them.
John

-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2021 5:12 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] windows 10 with jaws

I think one reason is that ribbons may not be clear in terms of how they are organized and how to work with them if you just come across them and have no good instruction. That probably happened to a lot of people who had none or had some help from people who didn't understand them properly either.


The word from people who have such experiences spreads from them throughout the blind computer using community.


If there had been some sort of utopian way to send good help in the form
of explanations and demonstrations to all those in the blind Windows
computer using community as soon as ribbons were released, a lot of the
fear surrounding ribbons might have been preempted.


Gene
On 7/30/2021 3:28 PM, Ann Parsons wrote:
Hi all,

It's amazing to me that a word, one simple word can cause such angst,
such fear, such unreasoning terror. Ribbons are menus, pure and
simple. They may cause some difficulty for the sighted because they
are horizontal and not vertical, but what is so terrifying about a
menu? You've been working with menus since you started using a
computer. Why aren't you terrified by menus? They're just the same as
ribbons! Ribbons are horizontal menus, that's all. They have more
data in them, but they're only menus, just menus. ""Beware the
Jabberwock, The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
The frumious Bandersnatch!”
― Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass and What Alice Found There

<smiling>
Ann P.




Original message:

Really there’s a ribene disabler?
What is that n and how odes it work?
Thanks,
John
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of
joanne
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2021 7:52 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] windows 10 with jaws
Marvin and all, thanks for your input and we will definitely be in
touch with those who let me know they're available to help. When I
get windows 10 it's a relief to know I can email my specific concerns
to someone who's used it.
I think the main problem my friend is having is what I am having
whenever I see a computer that has 10. He couldn't get regular list
views and, like many of us, didn't comprehend ribbons so I sent him a
ribbon disabler. What I wasn't aware of until now was the
comprehensive info we can get from Freedom Scientific. I will
certainly be making use of that and will let my friend know that help
from them is also available.
I realize there have been disagreements in the group about people's
comfort level and wanting to stick with certain things that they're
used to from other programs. That's why there are some work-arounds
like classic shell and other tools. I'm very glad many of you have
caught on to the strange setup of 10, but some of us--at least
starting out--want certain aspects to have at least some familiarity
to us. So I appreciate the great help that comes, and I also hope
that those who don't have trouble adjusting to 10 might try to
understand that some are in a different place and need some extra
help and ideas as we learn this operating system.
Joanne
From: Marvin Hunkin <mailto:startrektech@techie.com>
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2021 4:08 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io>
Subject: [TechTalk] windows 10 with jaws
h. if you want to e-mail me and tell me what problems or issues. Been
using windows 10 with jaws for about 7 years. A power user. So if I
can help. Did you try googling if windows 10 utube. Did you try the
freedom scientific training and then searching for windows 10.
Or what about the fs reader training about windows. That is for
windows 10.
If you need help.
Happy to help.
Ps: don’t know of any programs which will have a shell like windows 7.
Just learn to use windows 10.
Marvin.


Gene
 

The JAWS virtual menus are not a good way to work with ribbons.  See this discussion. 
Also, if you use them, since instructional material in general uses real ribbons, you are making it harder to use tutorials and other instructional material. 
 
Did you see the tutorial I sent earlier today?  To move through a ribbon efficiently requires knowledge of one or two commands for moving quickly through ribbons, which I explain, and memorizing combinations of letters that make up a command, equivalent to shortcut commands on a menu, such as alt f, a, that you use regularly.
 
It is a little less efficient to move through ribbons, even when using shortcut commands because shortcut commands usually require another letter or two or perhaps three.  But nonribbon commands, previously used in ribbon programs mostly still work such as control o for open, control r for reply, etc so this loss of efficiency is often not a problem because you still use all or almost all the most efficient control plus letter or number commands you used in the menu versions.  . 
 
But whenever people disable ribbons, my qquestion is, what will you loose access to and what will be harder to do?  I don’t know the answers because I don’t disable ribbons.  Others may want to discuss the question.
 
Gene
-----Original Message-----

Sent: Friday, July 30, 2021 4:14 PM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] windows 10 with jaws
 
I have jaws set to show the jaws ribbon.
I honestly do not find  ribbons as easy to  navigate and would prefer too disable them.
John


-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2021 5:12 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] windows 10 with jaws

I think one reason is that ribbons may not be clear in terms of how they are organized and how to work with them if you just come across them and have no good instruction.  That probably happened to a lot of people who had none or had some help from people who didn't understand them properly either.


The word from people who have such experiences spreads from them throughout the blind computer using community.


If there had been some sort of utopian way to send good help in the form
of explanations and demonstrations to all those in the blind Windows
computer using community as soon as ribbons were released, a lot of the
fear surrounding ribbons might have been preempted.


Gene
On 7/30/2021 3:28 PM, Ann Parsons wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> It's amazing to me that a word, one simple word can cause such angst,
> such fear, such unreasoning terror.  Ribbons are menus, pure and
> simple.  They may cause some difficulty for the sighted because they
> are horizontal and not vertical, but what is so terrifying about a
> menu?  You've been working with menus since you started using a
> computer.  Why aren't you terrified by menus? They're just the same as
> ribbons!  Ribbons are horizontal menus, that's all.  They have more
> data in them, but they're only menus, just menus.  ""Beware the
> Jabberwock, The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
> Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
> The frumious Bandersnatch!”
> ― Lewis Carroll,  Through the Looking-Glass and What Alice Found There
>
> <smiling>
> Ann P.
>
>
>
>
> Original message:
>
>> Really there’s a ribene disabler?
>
>> What is that n and how odes it work?
>
>> Thanks,
>
>> John
>
>> From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of
>> joanne
>> Sent: Friday, July 30, 2021 7:52 AM
>> To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
>> Subject: Re: [TechTalk] windows 10 with jaws
>
>> Marvin and all, thanks for your input and we will definitely be in
>> touch with those who let me know they're available to help. When I
>> get windows 10 it's a relief to know I can email my specific concerns
>> to someone who's used it.
>
>> I think the main problem my friend is having is what I am having
>> whenever I see a computer that has 10. He couldn't get regular list
>> views and, like many of us, didn't comprehend ribbons so I sent him a
>> ribbon disabler. What I wasn't aware of until now was the
>> comprehensive info we can get from Freedom Scientific. I will
>> certainly be making use of that and will let my friend know that help
>> from them is also available.
>
>> I realize there have been disagreements in the group about people's
>> comfort level and wanting to stick with certain things that they're
>> used to from other programs. That's why there are some work-arounds
>> like classic shell and other tools. I'm very glad many of you have
>> caught on to the strange setup of 10, but some of us--at least
>> starting out--want certain aspects to have at least some familiarity
>> to us. So I appreciate the great help that comes, and I also hope
>> that those who don't have trouble adjusting to 10 might try to
>> understand that some are in a different place and need some extra
>> help and ideas as we learn this operating system.
>
>> Joanne
>
>> From: Marvin Hunkin <mailto:startrektech@...>
>
>> Sent: Friday, July 30, 2021 4:08 AM
>
>> To: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io>
>
>> Subject: [TechTalk] windows 10 with jaws
>
>> h. if you want to e-mail me and tell me what problems or issues. Been
>> using windows 10 with jaws for about 7 years. A power user. So if I
>> can help. Did you try googling if windows 10 utube. Did you try the
>> freedom scientific training and then searching for windows 10.
>
>> Or what about the fs reader training about windows. That is for
>> windows 10.
>
>> If you need help.
>
>> Happy to help.
>
>> Ps: don’t know of any programs which will have a shell like windows 7.
>
>> Just learn to use windows 10.
>
>> Marvin.
>
>>
>











John Holcomb II
 

I didn’t see it,

I’ve also found that while yes I can navigate stuff, figuring out which keys does what in every ribbon isn’t the easiest thing to do.

I still do not see a problem with using t the JAWS access r for the ribbon.

For me, it’s a matter of consistency which I think FS was trying to  a achieve in part.

John

 

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2021 5:32 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] windows 10 with jaws

 

The JAWS virtual menus are not a good way to work with ribbons.  See this discussion. 

https://blindtechnology.wordpress.com/2010/12/17/microsoft-ribbon-is-accessible/

Also, if you use them, since instructional material in general uses real ribbons, you are making it harder to use tutorials and other instructional material. 

 

Did you see the tutorial I sent earlier today?  To move through a ribbon efficiently requires knowledge of one or two commands for moving quickly through ribbons, which I explain, and memorizing combinations of letters that make up a command, equivalent to shortcut commands on a menu, such as alt f, a, that you use regularly.

 

It is a little less efficient to move through ribbons, even when using shortcut commands because shortcut commands usually require another letter or two or perhaps three.  But nonribbon commands, previously used in ribbon programs mostly still work such as control o for open, control r for reply, etc so this loss of efficiency is often not a problem because you still use all or almost all the most efficient control plus letter or number commands you used in the menu versions.  . 

 

But whenever people disable ribbons, my qquestion is, what will you loose access to and what will be harder to do?  I don’t know the answers because I don’t disable ribbons.  Others may want to discuss the question.

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Friday, July 30, 2021 4:14 PM

Subject: Re: [TechTalk] windows 10 with jaws

 

I have jaws set to show the jaws ribbon.
I honestly do not find  ribbons as easy to  navigate and would prefer too disable them.
John


-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2021 5:12 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] windows 10 with jaws

I think one reason is that ribbons may not be clear in terms of how they are organized and how to work with them if you just come across them and have no good instruction.  That probably happened to a lot of people who had none or had some help from people who didn't understand them properly either.


The word from people who have such experiences spreads from them throughout the blind computer using community.


If there had been some sort of utopian way to send good help in the form
of explanations and demonstrations to all those in the blind Windows
computer using community as soon as ribbons were released, a lot of the
fear surrounding ribbons might have been preempted.


Gene
On 7/30/2021 3:28 PM, Ann Parsons wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> It's amazing to me that a word, one simple word can cause such angst,
> such fear, such unreasoning terror.  Ribbons are menus, pure and
> simple.  They may cause some difficulty for the sighted because they
> are horizontal and not vertical, but what is so terrifying about a
> menu?  You've been working with menus since you started using a
> computer.  Why aren't you terrified by menus? They're just the same as
> ribbons!  Ribbons are horizontal menus, that's all.  They have more
> data in them, but they're only menus, just menus.  ""Beware the
> Jabberwock, The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
> Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
> The frumious Bandersnatch!”
> ― Lewis Carroll,  Through the Looking-Glass and What Alice Found There
>
> <smiling>
> Ann P.
>
>
>
>
> Original message:
>
>> Really there’s a ribene disabler?
>
>> What is that n and how odes it work?
>
>> Thanks,
>
>> John
>
>> From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of
>> joanne
>> Sent: Friday, July 30, 2021 7:52 AM
>> To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
>> Subject: Re: [TechTalk] windows 10 with jaws
>
>> Marvin and all, thanks for your input and we will definitely be in
>> touch with those who let me know they're available to help. When I
>> get windows 10 it's a relief to know I can email my specific concerns
>> to someone who's used it.
>
>> I think the main problem my friend is having is what I am having
>> whenever I see a computer that has 10. He couldn't get regular list
>> views and, like many of us, didn't comprehend ribbons so I sent him a
>> ribbon disabler. What I wasn't aware of until now was the
>> comprehensive info we can get from Freedom Scientific. I will
>> certainly be making use of that and will let my friend know that help
>> from them is also available.
>
>> I realize there have been disagreements in the group about people's
>> comfort level and wanting to stick with certain things that they're
>> used to from other programs. That's why there are some work-arounds
>> like classic shell and other tools. I'm very glad many of you have
>> caught on to the strange setup of 10, but some of us--at least
>> starting out--want certain aspects to have at least some familiarity
>> to us. So I appreciate the great help that comes, and I also hope
>> that those who don't have trouble adjusting to 10 might try to
>> understand that some are in a different place and need some extra
>> help and ideas as we learn this operating system.
>
>> Joanne
>
>> From: Marvin Hunkin <mailto:startrektech@...>
>
>> Sent: Friday, July 30, 2021 4:08 AM
>
>> To: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io>
>
>> Subject: [TechTalk] windows 10 with jaws
>
>> h. if you want to e-mail me and tell me what problems or issues. Been
>> using windows 10 with jaws for about 7 years. A power user. So if I
>> can help. Did you try googling if windows 10 utube. Did you try the
>> freedom scientific training and then searching for windows 10.
>
>> Or what about the fs reader training about windows. That is for
>> windows 10.
>
>> If you need help.
>
>> Happy to help.
>
>> Ps: don’t know of any programs which will have a shell like windows 7.
>
>> Just learn to use windows 10.
>
>> Marvin.
>
>>
>










Gene
 

The article discusses how ribbons are more consistent.  Despite claims Freedom Scientific makes, ribbons are consistent and properly accessible and the article discusses all that. 
 
Gene

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2021 4:41 PM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] windows 10 with jaws
 

I didn’t see it,

I’ve also found that while yes I can navigate stuff, figuring out which keys does what in every ribbon isn’t the easiest thing to do.

I still do not see a problem with using t the JAWS access r for the ribbon.

For me, it’s a matter of consistency which I think FS was trying to  a achieve in part.

John

 

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2021 5:32 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] windows 10 with jaws

 

The JAWS virtual menus are not a good way to work with ribbons.  See this discussion. 

https://blindtechnology.wordpress.com/2010/12/17/microsoft-ribbon-is-accessible/

Also, if you use them, since instructional material in general uses real ribbons, you are making it harder to use tutorials and other instructional material. 

 

Did you see the tutorial I sent earlier today?  To move through a ribbon efficiently requires knowledge of one or two commands for moving quickly through ribbons, which I explain, and memorizing combinations of letters that make up a command, equivalent to shortcut commands on a menu, such as alt f, a, that you use regularly.

 

It is a little less efficient to move through ribbons, even when using shortcut commands because shortcut commands usually require another letter or two or perhaps three.  But nonribbon commands, previously used in ribbon programs mostly still work such as control o for open, control r for reply, etc so this loss of efficiency is often not a problem because you still use all or almost all the most efficient control plus letter or number commands you used in the menu versions.  . 

 

But whenever people disable ribbons, my qquestion is, what will you loose access to and what will be harder to do?  I don’t know the answers because I don’t disable ribbons.  Others may want to discuss the question.

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Friday, July 30, 2021 4:14 PM

Subject: Re: [TechTalk] windows 10 with jaws

 

I have jaws set to show the jaws ribbon.
I honestly do not find  ribbons as easy to  navigate and would prefer too disable them.
John


-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2021 5:12 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] windows 10 with jaws

I think one reason is that ribbons may not be clear in terms of how they are organized and how to work with them if you just come across them and have no good instruction.  That probably happened to a lot of people who had none or had some help from people who didn't understand them properly either.


The word from people who have such experiences spreads from them throughout the blind computer using community.


If there had been some sort of utopian way to send good help in the form
of explanations and demonstrations to all those in the blind Windows
computer using community as soon as ribbons were released, a lot of the
fear surrounding ribbons might have been preempted.


Gene
On 7/30/2021 3:28 PM, Ann Parsons wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> It's amazing to me that a word, one simple word can cause such angst,
> such fear, such unreasoning terror.  Ribbons are menus, pure and
> simple.  They may cause some difficulty for the sighted because they
> are horizontal and not vertical, but what is so terrifying about a
> menu?  You've been working with menus since you started using a
> computer.  Why aren't you terrified by menus? They're just the same as
> ribbons!  Ribbons are horizontal menus, that's all.  They have more
> data in them, but they're only menus, just menus.  ""Beware the
> Jabberwock, The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
> Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
> The frumious Bandersnatch!”
> ― Lewis Carroll,  Through the Looking-Glass and What Alice Found There
>
> <smiling>
> Ann P.
>
>
>
>
> Original message:
>
>> Really there’s a ribene disabler?
>
>> What is that n and how odes it work?
>
>> Thanks,
>
>> John
>
>> From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of
>> joanne
>> Sent: Friday, July 30, 2021 7:52 AM
>> To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
>> Subject: Re: [TechTalk] windows 10 with jaws
>
>> Marvin and all, thanks for your input and we will definitely be in
>> touch with those who let me know they're available to help. When I
>> get windows 10 it's a relief to know I can email my specific concerns
>> to someone who's used it.
>
>> I think the main problem my friend is having is what I am having
>> whenever I see a computer that has 10. He couldn't get regular list
>> views and, like many of us, didn't comprehend ribbons so I sent him a
>> ribbon disabler. What I wasn't aware of until now was the
>> comprehensive info we can get from Freedom Scientific. I will
>> certainly be making use of that and will let my friend know that help
>> from them is also available.
>
>> I realize there have been disagreements in the group about people's
>> comfort level and wanting to stick with certain things that they're
>> used to from other programs. That's why there are some work-arounds
>> like classic shell and other tools. I'm very glad many of you have
>> caught on to the strange setup of 10, but some of us--at least
>> starting out--want certain aspects to have at least some familiarity
>> to us. So I appreciate the great help that comes, and I also hope
>> that those who don't have trouble adjusting to 10 might try to
>> understand that some are in a different place and need some extra
>> help and ideas as we learn this operating system.
>
>> Joanne
>
>> From: Marvin Hunkin <mailto:startrektech@...>
>
>> Sent: Friday, July 30, 2021 4:08 AM
>
>> To: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io>
>
>> Subject: [TechTalk] windows 10 with jaws
>
>> h. if you want to e-mail me and tell me what problems or issues. Been
>> using windows 10 with jaws for about 7 years. A power user. So if I
>> can help. Did you try googling if windows 10 utube. Did you try the
>> freedom scientific training and then searching for windows 10.
>
>> Or what about the fs reader training about windows. That is for
>> windows 10.
>
>> If you need help.
>
>> Happy to help.
>
>> Ps: don’t know of any programs which will have a shell like windows 7.
>
>> Just learn to use windows 10.
>
>> Marvin.
>
>>
>










Gene
 

Also, I don’t know what you mean by memorizing keys to use in different ribbons.  There are different shortcut commands, as in menus, but ribbons are menus, but you tab through them and they have more items in them. 
Instead of up and down arrowing, you tab and shift tab. 
 
Here, below my signature, is my tutorial.
 
Gene
 
I'll provide a brief tutorial based on what I wrote years ago of how to work with ribbons. 
 
I've added a little to it here.
 
Ribbons are ribbons wherever you find them.  This tutorial teaches you how to move through them and see or skip what you want.  certain ways of movement may cause you to miss things and not have any idea you are.  
 
First, I'll discuss a structure found in later versions of Windows that you need to know about-- the split button. 
One thing you will see as you look around ribbons and in other places in Windows are split buttons. A split button often allows you to see more options than just the default action.  Let's take an example. 
Let's say you come across a split button that says shut down Windows.  If you press enter on that button, Windows will shut down.  That is the default action.  Split buttons often show more options if you either right arrow while on the button or down arrow.  As an example, if you are on the shut down split button, you can right arrow and a list of options will open.  the items in the list include sleep, hibernate, restart, and others.  You up or down arrow through the list or use the short cut commands you hear announced as you move through the list.  the letter shortcuts often take actions without pressing enter so be careful when using them, just as you are in menus. 
 
So, let's review.  You find a split button that says shut down.  If you press enter, the computer will shut down. If you right arrow, other options may be displayed.  Or if you down arrow, other options may be displayed.  A split button won't work with both methods.  One method, either right arrowing or down arrowing will do so if it can be done with the button.  Try both methods if you don't know which one might work.  If you are on a tool bar which extends across the screen from left to right, down arrowing will open additional options.  If the strucgture moves up and down on the screen, right arrowing will open more options.  That's why if one doesn't work, try the other.  If you open the options a split button offers and don't want to work with them, arrow in the opposite direction to move out of them.  For example, if you right arrowed to open more options, left arrow. 
Some split buttons don't do anything when you right arrow or down arrow.  In that case, open them with alt down arrow.  Then tab through the additional options.  I've almost never worked in this way with split buttons but if you want to close a split button, try alt up arrow if you've used alt down arrow to open it.
 
Now, to ribbons themselves.
 
Regarding ribbons, much of the complaining about them is not warranted if you understand how they work and how to use short cut commands effectively and efficiently.  and I would strongly recommend against using the JAWS virtual menus, no matter what the JAWS training material says about ribbons being difficult to use.  the training material is just plain wrong and using virtual menus, you will be unnecessarily dependent on one screen-reader.  There are other disadvantages to using them which I won't go into here.  I will say regarding the dependence on one screen-reader iswsue that tutorials for programs that use ribbons done for blind people generally don't use the JAWS virtual ribbons and you will be greatly limiting yourself in learning such programs with tutorials if you use the JAWS virtual ribbons.  The JAWS virtual ribbons are off by default so you needn't do anything if you haven't turned them on. 
 
Try looking at ribbons and doing what is described below in wordpad.  Everyone with Windows 7 and higher has the ribbon version of Wordpad on their machine. 
 
The essence of working with ribbons is this:
Press alt to move to the upper ribbon.
You will probably be on an item that says home tab. Items on the upper ribbon are announced as tabs such as home tab, view tab, etc. 
To see what ribbons are available, right or left arrow repeatedly to move through the ribbons.  Move in one
direction to move through all of them, just as you would to move through all the menus.
 
For this demonstration, just so we are all doing the same thing, move with the right arrow. When you get back to where you started, you can keep right arrowing to move through the items again, if you wish.  You can move through all the items as many times as you want. Or you can move with the left arrow whenever you want to move in the opposite direction.  
 
Stop on view.  Then start tabbing.  You will move through all items in what is called the lower ribbon that are in the view ribbon. 
 
In other words you tab to see the items in a ribbon once you move to it.  Tab moves you forward through the items, shift tab moves you backword.
So tab and shift tab are used instead of up and down arrow. 
 
Many items in the lower ribbon are buttons.  Use either the space bar or enter to activate the button. You may find a button that opens a menu and if you press enter or the space bar, you will then be in a menu.
 
Each time you move to an item, you will hear the short cut command to work with that item. 
But JAWS has a bug and you often won't.  To hear the short cut, use the command JAWS key tab.  If you are using the default JAWS key, it is either insert.
 
Try tabbing to an item in a Wordpad ribbon and using the command insert tab.  You will hear some extraneous information.  The last thing you will hear is the short cut sequence.  You can repeat the information by repeating the command as often as you want.
 
Let's look at an item which is usually called the application menu.  Return to the main program window in wordpad by closing the ribbons.  You can either press escape repeatedly, if necessary, or you can press alt once.  Now, open the ribbons again with alt. 
Start right arrowing until you get to the application menu.
You will hear application menu and then something like button drop down grid.  Never mind drop down grid.  It's a description you don't have to worry about.  The important things are that you are on a button and at the application menu.  Press enter or the space bar to activate the button.  Activating the button opens the menu.  Start down arrowing. you will hear the item you are on and the short cut information to open or cause that item to take an action.  This iss the same behavior as in any standard menu. 
 
I told you one of the long ways to open the menu.  The short cut way is alt f.  When you open the menu and move through it, you will hear all the letters announced.  for example, if you down arrow to save as, you will hear alt f a.  that means that, when you are in the main program window, you open the menu  with alt f, then type a.  Alt f opens the menu and a then opens save as.  In other words, alt f was chosen as the short cut way to open the single menu in ribbon programs because it allowed the preservation of commands people have used for decades, such as alt f, a, for save as. 
 
Ribbon programs have one menu and you should look through it.  Many important and common commands and interfaces such as options may be there.  By options, I mean the kind of options interface you used to find in the tools menu.
 
Now the we have seen the menu, let's look at the ribbons structure some more.
To review, and add more information, as you have seen, you can move to the ribbon interface with alt.  Then right and left arrow, just as you would move from menu to menu. 
You can also move to a ribbon using alt and a letter.  So, alt h takes you to the home ribbon.  Alt v takes you to the view ribbon, etc.  Once you are on the ribbon you want to work with, tab to move forward through the items in a ribbon.  Shift tab to move back through the items.  So tab and shift tab are used instead of up and down arrow.
Ribbons are divided into categories which you will hear announced as you tab.  for example, in an e-mail program, a ribbon may have a category named respond.  You may hear this announced as respond tool bar.  As you tab, you will hear commands such as reply and forward in the respond category.  When you hear a category announced, don't tab until you hear everything spoken.  You will miss the first command in the category if you do.  I'm talking about working with an unfamiliar ribbon. 
there are often many more commands and items in a ribbon than in a menu.  So memorize command sequences for items you know you will use regularly. 
As I said, there are different categories in ribbons to help organize items.  You can quickly jump from category to category in a ribbon to help you see if there is a category you want to look through. 
Move to a ribbon in Wordpad.  For example, alt h for hhome or alt v for view.
Then repeatedly issue the command control right arrow to move forward from category to category and control left arrow to move back.  When you get to a category you want to hear the items in, start tabbing.  Of course, you can shift tab to move back. 
 
You can switch between moving by groups and individual items as often as you want.  You can move to a group, look through the items, then continue to move by group, switching to individual items again when you find a group you want to move through by individual items. 
Open a ribbon in Wordpad and tab through it to see how it is organized by moving through it. 
Then use control right arrow to move by category and tab to see what is in a category. 
 
Commands such as control o, control n, control s, control r, etc. are mostly retained in programs
that use ribbons, though you won't hear them announced. If you don't already know them, you'll have to find them in ways such as by looking at a list of keyboard commands for the program.  Such lists are often available in the help for the program. If you already know the commands from having used an older version of the program, most or perhaps even all of the commands you know will work.  


John Holcomb II
 

I read  it.

For me if I turn off the jaws ribbon, I actually find jaws to be way more chattery and find the arrow key navigation to be inconsistent.

It also gives me a lot of information which I can’t remember like all of the letters to get to whatever point I am, although I could use speech history to review it.

John

 

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2021 5:58 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] windows 10 with jaws

 

Also, I don’t know what you mean by memorizing keys to use in different ribbons.  There are different shortcut commands, as in menus, but ribbons are menus, but you tab through them and they have more items in them. 

Instead of up and down arrowing, you tab and shift tab. 

 

Here, below my signature, is my tutorial.

 

Gene

 

I'll provide a brief tutorial based on what I wrote years ago of how to work with ribbons. 

 

I've added a little to it here.

 

Ribbons are ribbons wherever you find them.  This tutorial teaches you how to move through them and see or skip what you want.  certain ways of movement may cause you to miss things and not have any idea you are.  

 

First, I'll discuss a structure found in later versions of Windows that you need to know about-- the split button. 

One thing you will see as you look around ribbons and in other places in Windows are split buttons. A split button often allows you to see more options than just the default action.  Let's take an example. 

Let's say you come across a split button that says shut down Windows.  If you press enter on that button, Windows will shut down.  That is the default action.  Split buttons often show more options if you either right arrow while on the button or down arrow.  As an example, if you are on the shut down split button, you can right arrow and a list of options will open.  the items in the list include sleep, hibernate, restart, and others.  You up or down arrow through the list or use the short cut commands you hear announced as you move through the list.  the letter shortcuts often take actions without pressing enter so be careful when using them, just as you are in menus. 

 

So, let's review.  You find a split button that says shut down.  If you press enter, the computer will shut down. If you right arrow, other options may be displayed.  Or if you down arrow, other options may be displayed.  A split button won't work with both methods.  One method, either right arrowing or down arrowing will do so if it can be done with the button.  Try both methods if you don't know which one might work.  If you are on a tool bar which extends across the screen from left to right, down arrowing will open additional options.  If the strucgture moves up and down on the screen, right arrowing will open more options.  That's why if one doesn't work, try the other.  If you open the options a split button offers and don't want to work with them, arrow in the opposite direction to move out of them.  For example, if you right arrowed to open more options, left arrow. 

Some split buttons don't do anything when you right arrow or down arrow.  In that case, open them with alt down arrow.  Then tab through the additional options.  I've almost never worked in this way with split buttons but if you want to close a split button, try alt up arrow if you've used alt down arrow to open it.

 

Now, to ribbons themselves.

 

Regarding ribbons, much of the complaining about them is not warranted if you understand how they work and how to use short cut commands effectively and efficiently.  and I would strongly recommend against using the JAWS virtual menus, no matter what the JAWS training material says about ribbons being difficult to use.  the training material is just plain wrong and using virtual menus, you will be unnecessarily dependent on one screen-reader.  There are other disadvantages to using them which I won't go into here.  I will say regarding the dependence on one screen-reader iswsue that tutorials for programs that use ribbons done for blind people generally don't use the JAWS virtual ribbons and you will be greatly limiting yourself in learning such programs with tutorials if you use the JAWS virtual ribbons.  The JAWS virtual ribbons are off by default so you needn't do anything if you haven't turned them on. 

 

Try looking at ribbons and doing what is described below in wordpad.  Everyone with Windows 7 and higher has the ribbon version of Wordpad on their machine. 

 

The essence of working with ribbons is this:

Press alt to move to the upper ribbon.

You will probably be on an item that says home tab. Items on the upper ribbon are announced as tabs such as home tab, view tab, etc. 

To see what ribbons are available, right or left arrow repeatedly to move through the ribbons.  Move in one

direction to move through all of them, just as you would to move through all the menus.

 

For this demonstration, just so we are all doing the same thing, move with the right arrow. When you get back to where you started, you can keep right arrowing to move through the items again, if you wish.  You can move through all the items as many times as you want. Or you can move with the left arrow whenever you want to move in the opposite direction.  

 

Stop on view.  Then start tabbing.  You will move through all items in what is called the lower ribbon that are in the view ribbon. 

 

In other words you tab to see the items in a ribbon once you move to it.  Tab moves you forward through the items, shift tab moves you backword.

So tab and shift tab are used instead of up and down arrow. 

 

Many items in the lower ribbon are buttons.  Use either the space bar or enter to activate the button. You may find a button that opens a menu and if you press enter or the space bar, you will then be in a menu.

 

Each time you move to an item, you will hear the short cut command to work with that item. 

But JAWS has a bug and you often won't.  To hear the short cut, use the command JAWS key tab.  If you are using the default JAWS key, it is either insert.

 

Try tabbing to an item in a Wordpad ribbon and using the command insert tab.  You will hear some extraneous information.  The last thing you will hear is the short cut sequence.  You can repeat the information by repeating the command as often as you want.

 

Let's look at an item which is usually called the application menu.  Return to the main program window in wordpad by closing the ribbons.  You can either press escape repeatedly, if necessary, or you can press alt once.  Now, open the ribbons again with alt. 

Start right arrowing until you get to the application menu.

You will hear application menu and then something like button drop down grid.  Never mind drop down grid.  It's a description you don't have to worry about.  The important things are that you are on a button and at the application menu.  Press enter or the space bar to activate the button.  Activating the button opens the menu.  Start down arrowing. you will hear the item you are on and the short cut information to open or cause that item to take an action.  This iss the same behavior as in any standard menu. 

 

I told you one of the long ways to open the menu.  The short cut way is alt f.  When you open the menu and move through it, you will hear all the letters announced.  for example, if you down arrow to save as, you will hear alt f a.  that means that, when you are in the main program window, you open the menu  with alt f, then type a.  Alt f opens the menu and a then opens save as.  In other words, alt f was chosen as the short cut way to open the single menu in ribbon programs because it allowed the preservation of commands people have used for decades, such as alt f, a, for save as. 

 

Ribbon programs have one menu and you should look through it.  Many important and common commands and interfaces such as options may be there.  By options, I mean the kind of options interface you used to find in the tools menu.

 

Now the we have seen the menu, let's look at the ribbons structure some more.

To review, and add more information, as you have seen, you can move to the ribbon interface with alt.  Then right and left arrow, just as you would move from menu to menu. 

You can also move to a ribbon using alt and a letter.  So, alt h takes you to the home ribbon.  Alt v takes you to the view ribbon, etc.  Once you are on the ribbon you want to work with, tab to move forward through the items in a ribbon.  Shift tab to move back through the items.  So tab and shift tab are used instead of up and down arrow.

Ribbons are divided into categories which you will hear announced as you tab.  for example, in an e-mail program, a ribbon may have a category named respond.  You may hear this announced as respond tool bar.  As you tab, you will hear commands such as reply and forward in the respond category.  When you hear a category announced, don't tab until you hear everything spoken.  You will miss the first command in the category if you do.  I'm talking about working with an unfamiliar ribbon. 

there are often many more commands and items in a ribbon than in a menu.  So memorize command sequences for items you know you will use regularly. 

As I said, there are different categories in ribbons to help organize items.  You can quickly jump from category to category in a ribbon to help you see if there is a category you want to look through. 

Move to a ribbon in Wordpad.  For example, alt h for hhome or alt v for view.

Then repeatedly issue the command control right arrow to move forward from category to category and control left arrow to move back.  When you get to a category you want to hear the items in, start tabbing.  Of course, you can shift tab to move back. 

 

You can switch between moving by groups and individual items as often as you want.  You can move to a group, look through the items, then continue to move by group, switching to individual items again when you find a group you want to move through by individual items. 

Open a ribbon in Wordpad and tab through it to see how it is organized by moving through it. 

Then use control right arrow to move by category and tab to see what is in a category. 

 

Commands such as control o, control n, control s, control r, etc. are mostly retained in programs

that use ribbons, though you won't hear them announced. If you don't already know them, you'll have to find them in ways such as by looking at a list of keyboard commands for the program.  Such lists are often available in the help for the program. If you already know the commands from having used an older version of the program, most or perhaps even all of the commands you know will work.  


chris judge
 

Remember, the virtual ribbon option was introduced in Jaws many years ago, around the time of ribbons inception. I didn’t use ribbons back then so can’t speak to how accessible they were back then. I don’t think too many people use the virtual ribbon option these days.

 

Chris Judge

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: July 30, 2021 6:55 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] windows 10 with jaws

 

The article discusses how ribbons are more consistent.  Despite claims Freedom Scientific makes, ribbons are consistent and properly accessible and the article discusses all that. 

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Friday, July 30, 2021 4:41 PM

Subject: Re: [TechTalk] windows 10 with jaws

 

I didn’t see it,

I’ve also found that while yes I can navigate stuff, figuring out which keys does what in every ribbon isn’t the easiest thing to do.

I still do not see a problem with using t the JAWS access r for the ribbon.

For me, it’s a matter of consistency which I think FS was trying to  a achieve in part.

John

 

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2021 5:32 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] windows 10 with jaws

 

The JAWS virtual menus are not a good way to work with ribbons.  See this discussion. 

https://blindtechnology.wordpress.com/2010/12/17/microsoft-ribbon-is-accessible/

Also, if you use them, since instructional material in general uses real ribbons, you are making it harder to use tutorials and other instructional material. 

 

Did you see the tutorial I sent earlier today?  To move through a ribbon efficiently requires knowledge of one or two commands for moving quickly through ribbons, which I explain, and memorizing combinations of letters that make up a command, equivalent to shortcut commands on a menu, such as alt f, a, that you use regularly.

 

It is a little less efficient to move through ribbons, even when using shortcut commands because shortcut commands usually require another letter or two or perhaps three.  But nonribbon commands, previously used in ribbon programs mostly still work such as control o for open, control r for reply, etc so this loss of efficiency is often not a problem because you still use all or almost all the most efficient control plus letter or number commands you used in the menu versions.  . 

 

But whenever people disable ribbons, my qquestion is, what will you loose access to and what will be harder to do?  I don’t know the answers because I don’t disable ribbons.  Others may want to discuss the question.

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Friday, July 30, 2021 4:14 PM

Subject: Re: [TechTalk] windows 10 with jaws

 

I have jaws set to show the jaws ribbon.
I honestly do not find  ribbons as easy to  navigate and would prefer too disable them.
John


-----Original Message-----
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2021 5:12 PM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] windows 10 with jaws

I think one reason is that ribbons may not be clear in terms of how they are organized and how to work with them if you just come across them and have no good instruction.  That probably happened to a lot of people who had none or had some help from people who didn't understand them properly either.


The word from people who have such experiences spreads from them throughout the blind computer using community.


If there had been some sort of utopian way to send good help in the form
of explanations and demonstrations to all those in the blind Windows
computer using community as soon as ribbons were released, a lot of the
fear surrounding ribbons might have been preempted.


Gene
On 7/30/2021 3:28 PM, Ann Parsons wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> It's amazing to me that a word, one simple word can cause such angst,
> such fear, such unreasoning terror.  Ribbons are menus, pure and
> simple.  They may cause some difficulty for the sighted because they
> are horizontal and not vertical, but what is so terrifying about a
> menu?  You've been working with menus since you started using a
> computer.  Why aren't you terrified by menus? They're just the same as
> ribbons!  Ribbons are horizontal menus, that's all.  They have more
> data in them, but they're only menus, just menus.  ""Beware the
> Jabberwock, The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
> Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
> The frumious Bandersnatch!”
> ― Lewis Carroll,  Through the Looking-Glass and What Alice Found There
>
> <smiling>
> Ann P.
>
>
>
>
> Original message:
>
>> Really there’s a ribene disabler?
>
>> What is that n and how odes it work?
>
>> Thanks,
>
>> John
>
>> From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of
>> joanne
>> Sent: Friday, July 30, 2021 7:52 AM
>> To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
>> Subject: Re: [TechTalk] windows 10 with jaws
>
>> Marvin and all, thanks for your input and we will definitely be in
>> touch with those who let me know they're available to help. When I
>> get windows 10 it's a relief to know I can email my specific concerns
>> to someone who's used it.
>
>> I think the main problem my friend is having is what I am having
>> whenever I see a computer that has 10. He couldn't get regular list
>> views and, like many of us, didn't comprehend ribbons so I sent him a
>> ribbon disabler. What I wasn't aware of until now was the
>> comprehensive info we can get from Freedom Scientific. I will
>> certainly be making use of that and will let my friend know that help
>> from them is also available.
>
>> I realize there have been disagreements in the group about people's
>> comfort level and wanting to stick with certain things that they're
>> used to from other programs. That's why there are some work-arounds
>> like classic shell and other tools. I'm very glad many of you have
>> caught on to the strange setup of 10, but some of us--at least
>> starting out--want certain aspects to have at least some familiarity
>> to us. So I appreciate the great help that comes, and I also hope
>> that those who don't have trouble adjusting to 10 might try to
>> understand that some are in a different place and need some extra
>> help and ideas as we learn this operating system.
>
>> Joanne
>
>> From: Marvin Hunkin <mailto:startrektech@...>
>
>> Sent: Friday, July 30, 2021 4:08 AM
>
>> To: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io>
>
>> Subject: [TechTalk] windows 10 with jaws
>
>> h. if you want to e-mail me and tell me what problems or issues. Been
>> using windows 10 with jaws for about 7 years. A power user. So if I
>> can help. Did you try googling if windows 10 utube. Did you try the
>> freedom scientific training and then searching for windows 10.
>
>> Or what about the fs reader training about windows. That is for
>> windows 10.
>
>> If you need help.
>
>> Happy to help.
>
>> Ps: don’t know of any programs which will have a shell like windows 7.
>
>> Just learn to use windows 10.
>
>> Marvin.
>
>>
>









Ann Parsons
 

Hi all,

Interesting, and probably true. Once I realized that I was looking at a menu which combined the old drop-down menus with the toolbars, all the mystery was gone for me. As I said before, the fact that a ribbon menu is horizontal shouldn't affect a blind person's understanding at all because he or she is still working with a feature which is voiced, and it is not germain to talk about how ribbons are horizontal instead of vertical; unless the student is a visual learner.

I think the only way to remove the fear of ribbons is to work with them. Oh, not using Jaws Virtual Ribbons, though these are good, and often useful if you want to do something quick, but working with the ribbons as they appear on the screen. Once you've tabbed through the options on a ribbon, you all of a sudden realize that this is the same group of options you had before. It's just arranged differently. Everything you want to do with your program is still there.

One word about commands, many of your old commands from windows7 still work. Ctrl-s saves. Alt-f4 still closes programs. Ctrl-2 still changes line spacing in Word. Alt-s still sends messages in Outlook. Ctrl-o still opens files.

It's the same tune, different variation.

Ann P.


Original message:

I think one reason is that ribbons may not be clear in terms of how they
are organized and how to work with them if you just come across them and
have no good instruction.  That probably happened to a lot of people who
had none or had some help from people who didn't understand them
properly either.

The word from people who have such experiences spreads from them
throughout the blind computer using community.

If there had been some sort of utopian way to send good help in the form
of explanations and demonstrations to all those in the blind Windows
computer using community as soon as ribbons were released, a lot of the
fear surrounding ribbons might have been preempted.

Gene
On 7/30/2021 3:28 PM, Ann Parsons wrote:
Hi all,
It's amazing to me that a word, one simple word can cause such angst,
such fear, such unreasoning terror.  Ribbons are menus, pure and
simple.  They may cause some difficulty for the sighted because they
are horizontal and not vertical, but what is so terrifying about a
menu?  You've been working with menus since you started using a
computer.  Why aren't you terrified by menus? They're just the same as
ribbons!  Ribbons are horizontal menus, that's all.  They have more
data in them, but they're only menus, just menus.  ""Beware the
Jabberwock, The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
The frumious Bandersnatch!”
― Lewis Carroll,  Through the Looking-Glass and What Alice Found There
<smiling>
Ann P.



Original message:
Really there’s a ribene disabler?
What is that n and how odes it work?
Thanks,
John
From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of
joanne
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2021 7:52 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] windows 10 with jaws
Marvin and all, thanks for your input and we will definitely be in
touch with those who let me know they're available to help. When I
get windows 10 it's a relief to know I can email my specific concerns
to someone who's used it.
I think the main problem my friend is having is what I am having
whenever I see a computer that has 10. He couldn't get regular list
views and, like many of us, didn't comprehend ribbons so I sent him a
ribbon disabler. What I wasn't aware of until now was the
comprehensive info we can get from Freedom Scientific. I will
certainly be making use of that and will let my friend know that help
from them is also available.
I realize there have been disagreements in the group about people's
comfort level and wanting to stick with certain things that they're
used to from other programs. That's why there are some work-arounds
like classic shell and other tools. I'm very glad many of you have
caught on to the strange setup of 10, but some of us--at least
starting out--want certain aspects to have at least some familiarity
to us. So I appreciate the great help that comes, and I also hope
that those who don't have trouble adjusting to 10 might try to
understand that some are in a different place and need some extra
help and ideas as we learn this operating system.
Joanne
From: Marvin Hunkin <mailto:startrektech@techie.com>
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2021 4:08 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io <mailto:main@TechTalk.groups.io>
Subject: [TechTalk] windows 10 with jaws
h. if you want to e-mail me and tell me what problems or issues. Been
using windows 10 with jaws for about 7 years. A power user. So if I
can help. Did you try googling if windows 10 utube. Did you try the
freedom scientific training and then searching for windows 10.
Or what about the fs reader training about windows. That is for
windows 10.
If you need help.
Happy to help.
Ps: don’t know of any programs which will have a shell like windows 7.
Just learn to use windows 10.
Marvin.




--
Ann K. Parsons
Portal Tutoring
EMAIL: akp@sero.email
Author of The Demmies: http://www.dldbooks.com/annparsons/
Portal Tutoring web site: http://www.portaltutoring.info
Skype: Putertutor

"All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost."


joanne
 

I had heard there were ribbon disablers for windows 10, so I googled and got a couple programs I sent to my friend. I also sent him Gene's very thorough tutorial on how to use ribbons, so he has a choice by investigating both sides of the issue. I don't have windows 10 myself, but I'm collecting helpful material for when I get it.
 
Also I do appreciate the links to the groups you sent. That will also be helpful as well.

Sent: Friday, July 30, 2021 12:07 PM
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] windows 10 with jaws

Really there’s a ribene disabler?

What is that n and how odes it work?

Thanks,

John

 

 

From: main@TechTalk.groups.io <main@TechTalk.groups.io> On Behalf Of joanne
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2021 7:52 AM
To: main@TechTalk.groups.io
Subject: Re: [TechTalk] windows 10 with jaws

 

Marvin and all, thanks for your input and we will definitely be in touch with those who let me know they're available to help. When I get windows 10 it's a relief to know I can email my specific concerns to someone who's used it.

 

I think the main problem my friend is having is what I am having whenever I see a computer that has 10. He couldn't get regular list views and, like many of us, didn't comprehend ribbons so I sent him a ribbon disabler. What I wasn't aware of until now was the comprehensive info we can get from Freedom Scientific. I will certainly be making use of that and will let my friend know that help from them is also available.

 

I realize there have been disagreements in the group about people's comfort level and wanting to stick with certain things that they're used to from other programs. That's why there are some work-arounds like classic shell and other tools. I'm very glad many of you have caught on to the strange setup of 10, but some of us--at least starting out--want certain aspects to have at least some familiarity to us. So I appreciate the great help that comes, and I also hope that those who don't have trouble adjusting to 10 might try to understand that some are in a different place and need some extra help and ideas as we learn this operating system.

 

Joanne

 

Sent: Friday, July 30, 2021 4:08 AM

Subject: [TechTalk] windows 10 with jaws

 

h. if you want to e-mail me and tell me what problems or issues. Been using windows 10 with jaws for about 7 years. A power user. So if I can help. Did you try googling if windows 10 utube. Did you try the freedom scientific training and then searching for windows 10.

Or what about the fs reader training about windows. That is for windows 10.

If you need help.

Happy to help.

Ps: don’t know of any programs which will have a shell like windows 7.

Just learn to use windows 10.

Marvin.